Jump to content

Seeking design for a OD fleet, ~$30k new


Recommended Posts

I am helping build a OD fleet at our YC amongst an ownership group. We have been looking at the J/70 however the costs are too high for us to consider for the ownership group we are putting together. Are there any sport boats that are around 24' in length that sell for less than $30k brand new?

Link to post
Share on other sites

There are quite a few FT10s on dual axle aluminum trailers with surge brakes that are available for less money than a J/70. PM me for their location and contact information.

If marketed by J boats they would have sold like cupcakes.
 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have never heard of the FT10 and it looks pretty good. Digging a bit more and I found the FT7.5 which may actually be a better fit for what we're looking for. However, I cannot seem to find any information on who produces them. I guess I could email Bob Perry?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Trim your initial price (and dreams) so that there are funds to keep the entire fleet is top notch, and equal, condition. OD is pointless when the boats are not interchangeable... becomes a AC-like money race. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

You might get close with an Int 110.  Actually more than close, according to this, and I think they have fleet pricing.  They plane, and have a trapeze.

 

http://110class.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Buy-a-110.pdf

edit- the link may be a bit old, but hey!

this isn’t 

 

https://110class.com/

more

 

 

 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, bcardarella said:

I am helping build a OD fleet at our YC amongst an ownership group. We have been looking at the J/70 however the costs are too high for us to consider for the ownership group we are putting together. Are there any sport boats that are around 24' in length that sell for less than $30k brand new?

Short answer: no

So, I'm curious about planning out this idea. It's a great idea, don't get me wrong, but did you all just get drunk as fuck and throw darts at a piece of paper? You're really kind of outside the realm of possibility, here. Did anybody look at the available new boats and their price?

It's a great idea to put together a one-design fleet. The problem is to get everybody to agree on a boat. Success usually depends on a salesman-type personality selling the fleet more than on carefully chosen metrics of cost/benefit.

Best suggestion so far IMHO: used Melges 24s. Definitely sportsboats, definitely available <$30K, downside is that they're difficult to sail well (personally I hate them).

I'm surprised nobody suggested Vipers, but they are probably smaller than you want.

J-80, good idea. Some would say that they are not really sports boats but they are a bit more user-friendly. Not as portable.

110, also a good idea but a good bit smaller than this group seems to be looking for. How about 210s?

How about a group-buy GP26? How many would you have to order to get the build economies down to $30k each?

FB- Doug

Link to post
Share on other sites

At the club in question there is a hoist - but it is very tidal and there is no drysail space whatsoever. (Full Disclosure I'm a member there but not one of this group)

There is a small fleet of Rhodes 19's - maybe 10 boats with another 25-30 among the other clubs in the bay. There are also one or two 210's that are not sailed all that much, (the last vestiges of what was once a big fleet) and a couple of Sakonnet 23's that sometimes race. There are a couple of 110's across the bay but they are dry sailed.

Since they are looking for a sportboat for less than 30K I'm thinking that the Melges 24 is a good idea, but they would need to live on a mooring so something a little more robust would be a good idea which is why I suggested the J/80.    

I applaud B for trying to get this off the ground, but I believe this group will run into all the same arguments that were made when the Rhodes 19 fleet started 20 years ago.

The question is will they be able to work through it or not. I'm not gonna worry about it too much I'm just gonna go sailing. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

The reason we're looking at the pricing is because we want to make the ownership group easier for younger racers to buy into. (20s - 30s) that can't afford to buy their own boat. Like many clubs there is a large age gap when it comes to owners and we're taking a look at this ownership opportunity as a way to close the gap. However, I recognize the challenge in finding a boat that will meet those requirements.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@boston we are considering using the Versadock systems off moorings (I've already checked that they'd be allowed) to semi-dry sail the boats. Thus avoiding the need to use the hoist and shuffle around the tides.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe the molds for the Antrim/ultimate 20 are still available. $30k doesn’t seem likely however.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Why don't you bite back into the 210?  I realize that the fleet died off but why not pick up the three from Tom Price in Annapolis at I think $5,500 each.  You could get rid of the genoas and do a class required jib only to make them more friendly.  Heck, the Annapolis boats are already rigged like that.  You'd be able to get six or eight of them for about $40,000 total I'd imagine, or darn close. 

The only other thought is to do some serious research on where the fleet of Flying Tiger 7.5s went after they left the 1Design center in Toronto I think it was.  Go to the FT7.5 thread to read a little more.  Somebody said that they're all in the US. 

By the way, I also agree with the Melges 24s.  I just picked one up for $14k and they're readily available there.  They're a strict one design so all you have to do is make sure they're all in good shape.  Roller furlers are handy and they can definitely live in the water.  Take the time to put some Interprotect 2000 and Underwater Epoxy on the bottoms and keels and you'll be in good shape.  There's no reason they can't live on moorings.  We have a fleet of Elliott 6meters that live on moorings here in Park City and they're a similar boat.  

Link to post
Share on other sites

If the focus is in involving 20ish to 30ish sailors focus should be on available crew numbers on a consistent basis. Which means fewer people required to make the boat go. All the boats mentioned are good boats. BUT they need bodies to make them perform. At say 24 feet 4 might be minimum. FT7.5's, J70's and 80's need about the same, maybe one more. Vipers are a good candidate needing 2 to 3 and there are used boats to be gathered to make a fleet. 

I do have a favorite in the i550. It can be sailed by two, three is a normal size crew. Makes it easier to have consistent numbers for the 20 to 30ish target age group. They are cheaper to maintain gear-wise and put sails on. Trailers can be found second hand readily from power boats. Towing by a smaller car is easy. It is a good fit for the target group. There are some second hand boats available to start.

Yes, I am biased as the owner of the i550 design. So in the spirit of Sailing Anarchy, SO WHAT? (Offered of course to defuse snide or dismissive remarks). I have penciled numbers for a series-build of boats from forms and jigs for full builds and partial builds of hulls to varying degrees and it is competitive. There is a very remote chance of a hull mold in existence for glass hulls but the source is unreliable.  The i550 has a great group of builders and supporters around the world but for the purposes of the Massachusetts OP doesn't really help them with numbers of boats but the enthusiasm is there to be built upon. 

That's my 2 cents

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, timber said:

If the focus is in involving 20ish to 30ish sailors focus should be on available crew numbers on a consistent basis. Which means fewer people required to make the boat go. All the boats mentioned are good boats. BUT they need bodies to make them perform. At say 24 feet 4 might be minimum. FT7.5's, J70's and 80's need about the same, maybe one more. Vipers are a good candidate needing 2 to 3 and there are used boats to be gathered to make a fleet. 

I do have a favorite in the i550. It can be sailed by two, three is a normal size crew. Makes it easier to have consistent numbers for the 20 to 30ish target age group. They are cheaper to maintain gear-wise and put sails on. Trailers can be found second hand readily from power boats. Towing by a smaller car is easy. It is a good fit for the target group. There are some second hand boats available to start.

Yes, I am biased as the owner of the i550 design. So in the spirit of Sailing Anarchy, SO WHAT? (Offered of course to defuse snide or dismissive remarks). I have penciled numbers for a series-build of boats from forms and jigs for full builds and partial builds of hulls to varying degrees and it is competitive. There is a very remote chance of a hull mold in existence for glass hulls but the source is unreliable.  The i550 has a great group of builders and supporters around the world but for the purposes of the Massachusetts OP doesn't really help them with numbers of boats but the enthusiasm is there to be built upon. 

That's my 2 cents

Hingham is a light air venue (former 210 sailor here and I've raced many times in Hingham - Last Chance Regatta Baby! - Trophy is right in front of me!!)  so you could do 3-4 for the on Melges 24.  The 210 is three people mostly and the 110 is 2.  I think at Hingham most of those boats are three people max, except for the J80 possibly.

It's too bad that the FT7.5s are hard to find.  

Also too bad that the RS21 is $40k.  That could be a good option.

Three or four is a good target for social fun.  

Two other things to consider is to look for a used up match racing fleet like Andrews 21, Colgate 26 (If I'm remembering the lengths correctly) or dare I say the Sonar class.  The Sonars replaced the 210 at the Falmouth Yacht Club (my home club) and they're loving them.  The issue is that there's a variety of quality levels of boats out there so you'd need to consider a boat rotation to keep it even.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

When I saw this, I was thinking a Viper could be a good fit.  There's a bunch on the East Coast and close to you that you could do some travel regattas if you want, or possibly have a few come for a show and tell at your club for prospective buyers (PM me if you want some contacts).  

 

There are a bunch that are for sale at a very good price right now.  You can probably buy 2 for your $30k budget!

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/1/2021 at 3:39 PM, bcardarella said:

I am helping build a OD fleet at our YC amongst an ownership group. We have been looking at the J/70 however the costs are too high for us to consider for the ownership group we are putting together. Are there any sport boats that are around 24' in length that sell for less than $30k brand new?

I'd be very interested in talking to you more. I lived in Quincy up until last year, I now live in Swampscott, so still not too far away. I love Hingham, I rode my bike through there all the time and would love to see a fleet in Hingham. 

The RS21 was really designed for club style racing. As it's been pointed out, there really aren't any options for a brand new boat for 30K. The RS21 is 40K +/- depending on the options you choose. It's very well balanced and exciting for 3 or 4 sailors, some have even sailed with 5.

The reality is that to build a new keelboat, market it, and support the customers that buy it (the later is the most important) there has to be pretty significant sales margin.

The J70 sold largely off the J Boats name and the promotion by a handful of people, but J Boats nor their dealers really had to put in a lot of effort and therefore maintain their margin. Even with that the boats are expensive and to keep them race ready is way more expensive. And of course if you want to race one be ready to throw down a lot of money to pay for pro sailors in order to even be competitive. 

To be honest we've invested a ton of money and time on the RS21 yet we're pushing forwards. Steve Clark has a famous (to me at least) quote that it costs more to launch a  one design fleet than it is to send a kid through college.

There's a new fleet headed to San Francisco and Bermuda, some more interest in various parts of North America, lots going on in Europe, we're supplying a fleet of 12 to the US Sailing Chubb Jr. Champs, and the NYYC Resolute Cup. 

We will have ex event boats this year and next year, lightly sailed for a significant discount. Depending on your timeline, maybe that's a good option for you. Would you like to shoot me an email? Hopefully at least chatting wouldn't hurt. My email is todd@rssailing.com

 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

@bcardarella by the way, I've been working with two naval architects/designers in New England, both 110 sailors, to develop a way to create a 110 home-build style composite hull kits.  The idea is that you could order a kit and build a hull on a jig.  Not that you want to get into building eight hulls but Chislett Marine in Portsmouth, NH could likely assemble the kits and boats for you so that you have eight matched new 110s under your budget.  It's a thought.  Maybe not quite what you're looking for but I figured that I'd mention it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Second the Viper suggestion. Now they are 32k or so and you can get decent used boats (less than 10 years old) for 10k or so now. Most of the other options you and others have mentioned either cost way more than 30k new, or have no used boat market yet - the availability of good used boats at low prices is key for the younger demographic, as even 30k tends to be too large a check for many of them to stroke. Plus you have a fleet in Marblehead and others on the east coast who would like to see you succeed to offer advice. I am the Northeast Regional VP for the Class - feel free to drop me a line for more info.

Peter

Link to post
Share on other sites

If you are interested in quality one design racing, with an active fleet right next door, and a boat that is very easy to deal with, fun to sail, and affordable (definitely you can build a fleet with your price range), I definitely think we should talk about the Viper 640.  We have a passionate and active fleet in Marblehead of 10 boats, with most of us living in and around Boston.  We sail one design every Saturday in Marblehead MRA's and actively campaign our boats all over the place.  With a super active fleet in the Northeast we find ourselves packing the boats up and travelling for multiple regattas per year within a 3-4 hour drive of the city, and of course during normal winters, usually 3-4 of us will have our boats living down in Florida for the winter circuit.

It's been a season or two since I've sailed my boat in Boston Harbor (the inner harbor is a bit small for a Viper, but the outer harbor is big enough), and I would totally be up for a visit at your club sometime this season if you want to check out the boats (we could probably wrangle 3-4 to come down for some informal racing).  We're based out of BYC, EYC, and a boatyard in Marblehead, and you're always welcome to come up and sail with us anytime.  That said, I've been looking for a reason to sail down from MHD to the harbor, and this might be our excuse! 

There are loads of us Viperers in the northeast and we're passionate about our fleet--I think we can show you why if you want to chat (let me know).  Also that guy with the panda holding nunchucks knows a thing or two about the fleet also :p

Link to post
Share on other sites

Viper 640 might be a good fit for this application.  Gulf Yachting Association uses them for their interclub racing series. Quite a few fleets along East Coast, West Coast and Florida/Gulf region.  Decent used boat market.  World Championships for 2022 are slated for the East coast, which gives your group plenty of time to become familiar with the 640, gear up, and practice...

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/2/2021 at 6:42 PM, timber said:

If the focus is in involving 20ish to 30ish sailors focus should be on available crew numbers on a consistent basis. Which means fewer people required to make the boat go. All the boats mentioned are good boats. BUT they need bodies to make them perform. At say 24 feet 4 might be minimum. FT7.5's, J70's and 80's need about the same, maybe one more. Vipers are a good candidate needing 2 to 3 and there are used boats to be gathered to make a fleet. 

 

 

I second the suggestion that others have made here for the Viper.

Im not involved in the Viper fleet any more but I used to crew on one.   The single most attractive feature on the Viper is it is that it attracts crew, and gets young people involved in sailing.  The friend I sailed with always had lots on enthusiastic younger folks interested in racing on the Viper.  It is lively, dynamic and a great deal of fun. It is sized for 3 people of an approximately average weight so you can put together many crew combinations (2 elephants and a lighter person, 4 teenagers, 3 average guys etcetc).  It was very comfortable for an older but active guy like myself with a massive cockpit.  I really liked the boat.

I also liked the people we met and their active and energetic circuit. It is so much work trying to resuscitate a dying class (The Ultimate 20, 110s etc etc) and even more work trying to launch a new class (The RS 20).   The Viper just seems like one of those steady classes which never exploded and the died....but just keeps growing steadily each year.    Anyway, it seems like a nice enough sport boat which will be around for a couple more decades at least.  An up to date version of the Lightning or Rhodes 19??

Oh and in passing....kudos to the RS guy who posted earlier. I like the RS range of dinghies and take my hat off to everyone supporting our sport.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/2/2021 at 10:10 AM, bcardarella said:

@boston we are considering using the Versadock systems off moorings (I've already checked that they'd be allowed) to semi-dry sail the boats. Thus avoiding the need to use the hoist and shuffle around the tides.

Versadock will need something a lot lighter than a Melges 20 or J70.

That is pretty much going to focus your search on boats like Viper , VX One (smaller version of Viper), maybe RS21.  Once you get heavier than that then hauling onto Versadock is heavy work.

But Versadock is expensive. Isnt that going to add another $5k per boat to your budget?

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/2/2021 at 5:54 AM, boston said:

J/80's - you can get decent boats for @ $25k

 

 

Too bad there aren’t any available used to build a fleet with. They are in high demand with Worlds happening in Newport in ‘22 and of the few that have come to market in the last few months they have been snapped up extremely quickly. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I have a pair of Flying Tiger 10M on aluminum trailers that are available for sale. Asking $55,000 for both.

That is a cheap way to start a fleet because there are a number of FT10s available at similar cost.

Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, hoofhearted said:

Viper 640 might be a good fit for this application.  Gulf Yachting Association uses them for their interclub racing series. Quite a few fleets along East Coast, West Coast and Florida/Gulf region.  Decent used boat market.  World Championships for 2022 are slated for the East coast, which gives your group plenty of time to become familiar with the 640, gear up, and practice...

 

+ 1 for the Viper . 

Simple fast boat + decent peeps.

Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, glass said:

I have a pair of Flying Tiger 10M on aluminum trailers that are available for sale. Asking $55,000 for both.

4 hours ago, Senator Seditious Maximus said:
What are they called "Double Trouble"? lol

Lot less trouble Senator Minimus than what your grandpa had to do to survive Mussolini and the Black Shirts.

Benito-Mussolini.jpg  

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/6/2021 at 3:26 PM, IPLore said:

I second the suggestion that others have made here for the Viper.

Im not involved in the Viper fleet any more but I used to crew on one.   The single most attractive feature on the Viper is it is that it attracts crew, and gets young people involved in sailing.  The friend I sailed with always had lots on enthusiastic younger folks interested in racing on the Viper.  It is lively, dynamic and a great deal of fun. It is sized for 3 people of an approximately average weight so you can put together many crew combinations (2 elephants and a lighter person, 4 teenagers, 3 average guys etcetc).  It was very comfortable for an older but active guy like myself with a massive cockpit.  I really liked the boat.

I also liked the people we met and their active and energetic circuit. It is so much work trying to resuscitate a dying class (The Ultimate 20, 110s etc etc) and even more work trying to launch a new class (The RS 20).   The Viper just seems like one of those steady classes which never exploded and the died....but just keeps growing steadily each year.    Anyway, it seems like a nice enough sport boat which will be around for a couple more decades at least.  An up to date version of the Lightning or Rhodes 19??

Oh and in passing....kudos to the RS guy who posted earlier. I like the RS range of dinghies and take my hat off to everyone supporting our sport.

The i550 is an updated Lightning. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/6/2021 at 5:37 PM, IPLore said:

Versadock will need something a lot lighter than a Melges 20 or J70.

That is pretty much going to focus your search on boats like Viper , VX One (smaller version of Viper), maybe RS21.  Once you get heavier than that then hauling onto Versadock is heavy work.

But Versadock is expensive. Isnt that going to add another $5k per boat to your budget?

 

A club nearby is using Versadock for J/70s without any issue.

Link to post
Share on other sites

RS was working with Versadock in the UK as I don't believe there is anyone selling the product in the US.

They have a updated version that was made for the J70 which can easily cater to lighter boats like the RS21 and Viper.

We can throw some in containers and ship with boats too.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The 110 (24’ btw) is great and I would encourage your group to give it some thought. You can sail from a mooring if that’s a limitation, also very easy to tow and store given its weight and narrow beam.   Sounds like you’re in Hingham. It would be pretty cool if they pulled the trigger on a fleet of 110s to join the boats out Hull (which are actually from across New England).   
 

I’ve seen the viper mentioned a bunch here, and that’s certainly a decent choice, but I’m very surprised nobody has mentioned the VX One, which is a superb sport boat.  This is a bit smaller than your spec (around 20’), but a very agile and fun boat. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, eliboat said:

The 110 (24’ btw) is great and I would encourage your group to give it some thought. You can sail from a mooring if that’s a limitation, also very easy to tow and store given its weight and narrow beam.   Sounds like you’re in Hingham. It would be pretty cool if they pulled the trigger on a fleet of 110s to join the boats out Hull (which are actually from across New England).   
 

I’ve seen the viper mentioned a bunch here, and that’s certainly a decent choice, but I’m very surprised nobody has mentioned the VX One, which is a superb sport boat.  This is a bit smaller than your spec (around 20’), but a very agile and fun boat. 

I mentioned the VX One . Its a smaller version of the Viper.  They sail together in a winter series in Sarasota. I have sailed both. Both are good boats. 

I also think the RS looks interesting. I bet if you offered to buy their demo fleet you'd get a great deal.

The VX One is more athletic and dinghy like than the RS 21. Viper is in the middle, more stable than the VX and more sporty than the RX

You wont go wrong with either one of these three and all of them can slide on and off of a versa dock mechanism with ease. Since they are so light....750 lbs +/- ...you could probably find something less expensive than versadock

Organize a demo with all three boats on the same day. It would be great fun and you'd probably get a great turn out of members and people interested in joining a club with a program like this if the demo was well publicized. Then get feedback.  Todd could probbaly help organize it. He could certainly do the RS side of it and I expect he knows who to cal from the Viper and VX suppliers.

 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Choose an active and established one design with an active class association, and existing racing.

That way you can focus your energy on building your own fleet and not get distracted by having to try and kick start a new class.

 

Also choose a boat with an active builder. Again you dont want to be distracted by trying to resuscitate a class that has ebbed. 

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Senator Seditious Maximus said:

The Viper lacks refinement of the VX-1 and the RS-21 is 1/3 again the price of the VX-1, therefore, chose the VX-1.

I have not sailed the RS but it looks interesting enough to include in a 3 way demo. Plus the "RS" customer service is second to none.

I have sailed both VX and Viper. The difference is not "refinement".  The principle difference is size and stability. The Viper is a bit larger. Thus the typical configuration in a Viper is 3 people (space for 4 light people). The typical VX configuration is 2 people (space for 3 light people) The Viper has a larger keel bulb relative to its overall weight. Thus more stable.  Both have refined contemporary systems compared to the clunkers we grew up sailing and are light years different from the Rhodes 19.  They will both attract younger sailors. 

Importantly they can plane in a comfortable manner downwind in above 10 knots and they are lighter weight and easier to handle than the heavier sport boats like the Melges 24 and J 70.  Vipers have been purchased as club owned boats throughout the Gulf. I think the VX had a club program in Toronto. So both are established and proven designs that are not going to fade away. 

Anyway...enjoy your search and sail the boats before choosing.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/3/2021 at 1:36 PM, RSsailingNA said:

I'd be very interested in talking to you more. I lived in Quincy up until last year, I now live in Swampscott, so still not too far away. I love Hingham, I rode my bike through there all the time and would love to see a fleet in Hingham. 

The RS21 was really designed for club style racing. As it's been pointed out, there really aren't any options for a brand new boat for 30K. The RS21 is 40K +/- depending on the options you choose. It's very well balanced and exciting for 3 or 4 sailors, some have even sailed with 5.

The reality is that to build a new keelboat, market it, and support the customers that buy it (the later is the most important) there has to be pretty significant sales margin.

The J70 sold largely off the J Boats name and the promotion by a handful of people, but J Boats nor their dealers really had to put in a lot of effort and therefore maintain their margin. Even with that the boats are expensive and to keep them race ready is way more expensive. And of course if you want to race one be ready to throw down a lot of money to pay for pro sailors in order to even be competitive. For local club scene that they envisage, they could have a local rule banning pros.  I think the real issue is whether they want something as heavy as the J70. For a versa dock system, you want lighter end of the spectrum

To be honest we've invested a ton of money and time on the RS21 yet we're pushing forwards. Steve Clark has a famous (to me at least) quote that it costs more to launch a  one design fleet than it is to send a kid through college. @Steve Clark quote I vaguely remember was along the lines that it is cheaper to start a new college than start a new OD class and likely easier as well.

There's a new fleet headed to San Francisco and Bermuda, some more interest in various parts of North America, lots going on in Europe, we're supplying a fleet of 12 to the US Sailing Chubb Jr. Champs, and the NYYC Resolute Cup. Well done

We will have ex event boats this year and next year, lightly sailed for a significant discount. This. Thus I would not exclude RS21 on its retail price. All of these classes will offer some kind of fleet purchase . RS in particular .

Depending on your timeline, maybe that's a good option for you. Would you like to shoot me an email? Hopefully at least chatting wouldn't hurt. My email is todd@rssailing.com

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Senator Seditious Maximus said:

Well I owned Viper #33 and did all the required mods, what a PITA.  The boat never could compete with the tin rig against the carbo Snakes.  It quickly became a money-pit with little reward.  The VX-1 is everything mistake made in the design/build of the 640 corrected.  It's just a vastly superior boat.

You are not really comparing like with like.  As you point out Viper #33 was built many years before the  Class Association and Rondar partnered to fundamentally redesign and upgrade the boat including a carbon rig prior to relaunching the class.    

I dont think the VX is superior to the Viper or vice versa.  Both are well constructed. Both are nice boats. Both have modern systems and rigs.  The modern Viper turned a fundamentally great hull shape into a very refined offering. Hundreds of the new boats have been sold and it is a successful class

The two boats meet different needs.   They are different sized boat.  The people who sail them meet at sarasota each year and there is a lot of mutual respect.  Several years ago, there was some rivalry when the Gulf Yachting Association was trying to choose between the Viper and the VX (and each claimed to be "vastly superior" to the other) but that has long since passed .  A VX sailor will step into a Viper and compliment the boat. A Viper sailor will step into a VX and enjoy the VX.  I have sailed my Viper with several VX sailors and they always compliment the boat.  The reality IMHO is that both boats are "vastly superior" to older displacement designs.  They have brought back the joy of one design sailing with light, easy, fast, fun and affordable One Design sailing. They have increased participation in the sport.  Between the two of them, the difference is about size and personal preference for how you want to sail.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/14/2021 at 11:58 AM, Mambo Kings said:

You are not really comparing like with like.  As you point out Viper #33 was built many years before the  Class Association and Rondar partnered to fundamentally redesign and upgrade the boat including a carbon rig prior to relaunching the class.    

I dont think the VX is superior to the Viper or vice versa.  Both are well constructed. Both are nice boats. Both have modern systems and rigs.  The modern Viper turned a fundamentally great hull shape into a very refined offering. Hundreds of the new boats have been sold and it is a successful class

The two boats meet different needs.   They are different sized boat.  The people who sail them meet at sarasota each year and there is a lot of mutual respect.  Several years ago, there was some rivalry when the Gulf Yachting Association was trying to choose between the Viper and the VX (and each claimed to be "vastly superior" to the other) but that has long since passed .  A VX sailor will step into a Viper and compliment the boat. A Viper sailor will step into a VX and enjoy the VX.  I have sailed my Viper with several VX sailors and they always compliment the boat.  The reality IMHO is that both boats are "vastly superior" to older displacement designs.  They have brought back the joy of one design sailing with light, easy, fast, fun and affordable One Design sailing. They have increased participation in the sport.  Between the two of them, the difference is about size and personal preference for how you want to sail.

 

I think you bring up a really good point. From a manufacturer's perspective, there are certainly different target customers here, unfortunately the sailing world is small so there is a lot of overlap. 

Here's my personal opinion of each of their attributes sort of in order from sporty/dinghy like to true keelboat.

Established fleets aside, they all truly cater to a different type of sailor. 

VX- Sporty dinghy like exciting boat

Viper - Sporty, little less dinghy feel more keelboat feel

Melges 24 - Sporty with lots of power yet still a keelboat feel

RS21 - Semi-sporty true keelboat feel but with some dinghy like feel and very balanced platform

J70/Melges 20 - Semi-Sporty, true keelboat feel with lots of power

Sonar/J22/J24 - True displacement keelboat feel with rich histories 


I've got to be honest, if you asked me personally which of the list I'd like to race, it'd be a VX. But then again, I don't spent much time hiking and from my last experience on a Viper it's brutal to hop it not in hiking shape and the 21 is really nice that it eliminates that. 

That's why I believe in the RS21 for a club boat, it's a blend of everything for a club looking to reach a broad membership base with an approachable boat.

That being said, as people might prefer something different from One Design, they might prefer something different for their club and at the end of the day you have to choose what's best for your club. We would of course love to be the boat for everywhere, but we're happy to fall in where the boat fits the needs of the sailors.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, RSsailingNA said:

I think you bring up a really good point. From a manufacturer's perspective, there are certainly different target customers here, unfortunately the sailing world is small so there is a lot of overlap. 

Here's my personal opinion of each of their attributes sort of in order from sporty/dinghy like to true keelboat.

Established fleets aside, they all truly cater to a different type of sailor. 

VX- Sporty dinghy like exciting boat

Viper - Sporty, little less dinghy feel more keelboat feel

Melges 24 - Sporty with lots of power yet still a keelboat feel

RS21 - Semi-sporty true keelboat feel but with some dinghy like feel and very balanced platform

J70/Melges 20 - Semi-Sporty, true keelboat feel with lots of power

Sonar/J22/J24 - True displacement keelboat feel with rich histories 


I've got to be honest, if you asked me personally which of the list I'd like to race, it'd be a VX. But then again, I don't spent much time hiking and from my last experience on a Viper it's brutal to hop it not in hiking shape and the 21 is really nice that it eliminates that. 

That's why I believe in the RS21 for a club boat, it's a blend of everything for a club looking to reach a broad membership base with an approachable boat.

That being said, as people might prefer something different from One Design, they might prefer something different for their club and at the end of the day you have to choose what's best for your club. We would of course love to be the boat for everywhere, but we're happy to fall in where the boat fits the needs of the sailors.

Here is my perspective , having sailed all of these boats except RS 21

VX One  :   Fast , exciting 2 person boat. Light displacement. Can capsize. Dinghy/sport boat crossover. Legs in hiking. Fantastic winter series in sarasota.

Viper 640 : Fast, fun 3 person boat.  Light displacement.. Noticeably more keel than VX and less aggressive hiking position (Viper is very comfortable kegs in hiking for this 60 year old). Sport Boat.....readily planing keelboat.  Very ergonomically simple to sail . Active and prospering class, Lot of regattas/events. 

RS 21 : Have not sailed it.  Narrower design than the wide planing hulls of the Viper and VX. Looks simple to sail.  Somewhat higher price point . Still establishing itself in US.  RS service ad support is 2nd to none.

Melges 20 :  Somewhat depowered version of her larger cousin but more nimble than the J70. Heavier than the Viper/RS 21 and more complex to sail.  Lots of tuning adjustments. Dominated by pro teams and one circuit in Miami. Not much else happening elsewhere

Melges 24 : The first large OD sport boat class in the US. Brutal legs out hiking to be competitive but its the benchmark

J70 :  Heavier displacement sport boat .   Given recent arrival the design was somewhat dated on arrival but its been a big success and the large positive is that there are a lot of boats/regattas and events.

.The J70, Viper and Melges 24 are the best established classes in terms of events and participation.   

 

If you asked me which I would like to race on a regular weekend basis it would probably be the Viper. It is the right blend (for me) of sportiness and comfortable hiking and it is simple enough for regular club sailor.  I also like sailing 3 up so that I can bring along a friend who may not necessarily be a top notch crew..   However I like the sound of the RS 21 and would give it a try. 

I have grown less interested in J70s Melges 24s etc over the years because they require more effort and logistics to simply go sailing.  

The VX is beautiful boat.....but I prefer 3 person. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

We owned  J70 back in the day.   Its a nice solid boat and much more fun that prior J Boats.   It is a semi pro circuit at the front of the fleet but several corinthian teams in the middle of the fleet.  I recommend it for the regatta circuit.  If you are going to primarily sail locally , with occasional events to travel to, and use floating docks then I would go for something lighter and easier to launch every weekend like RS 21 or Viper. 

I dont know enough to join the VX vs Viper debate.  I sailed the Viper in a 3 way demo between Viper, SB3 and (I think ) the K6.   I liked the Viper over the SB3 because it was nicer to sail, and had more contemporary refinements . I preferred the Viper over K6  because Viper was a lot more spacious and could be raced with 3 (vs 2 for K6) and could comfortably take 4 or 5 for recreational evening sail.  That said the K6 might also be on your list because I think new boats are sub $30,000 and I think the fleet at American Yacht Club could probably be picked up cheaply. 

Shortly after the demo, we bought a J70, so take that how you want.  Primarily because my husband wanted more of a semi-traditional keelboat.   In hindsight I think we might have fitted in better with the slightly more relaxed and fun loving Viper crowd but we had a great time in the J70 so no complaints.

Dont have any boats now except a Sunfish.

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I have an RS21 and all i can say this boat is huge fun. Every time i go out i have a massive grin on my face. She just glides in the light stuff, and can take some big wind and turn it into speed. Me and crew were just playing for speed the other day in 15knts, gusting to 25+ and held a sustained plane at 12.5knts, running slightly forward of the beam with just the jib and main. Didn't manage to get the spin up in the good wind, as by the time we had tacked far enough up the lake it had backed down. Still ran 9.5 to 10 all the way back. Racing tomorrow in a 17 mile race up the lake and back and looking forward to seeing how it holds up in the fleet.

Try one guys and gals, its half the price of a J70 and just as much fun.

Neil

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/9/2021 at 8:38 AM, bcardarella said:

A club nearby is using Versadock for J/70s without any issue.

Are you talking about Cohasset?  

Link to post
Share on other sites

@sailordude69 not yet, I think have enough information where we can hold a meting with our members this summer and present the pros/cons of the different choices. We don't plan on buying the fleet until this Fall with the intent on sailing in 2022 so we have some time.

Link to post
Share on other sites

It has been mentioned earlier in this thread, but one can buy a new Fareast 19R for this budget. Can be crewed by 2 to 4 people. Four boats can be fitted in a container, that could make importing them cheaper

Link to post
Share on other sites

What would preclude you from getting say 10 OD boats in the 5k range and fixing them up.  There are plenty of dead classes that were pretty decent back in the day.  It's OD, no need for the latest and greatest thing out there.  Look at the boats they use on the match racing tour..  The Catalinas at SDYC are how old??  Look for a class that had big #'s 10 years ago, pick those up for 2-3 K and fix em up.  That will get you to the price point of these 20 somethings.  The 30K is wayyyy too high for that age group IMHO and I sail with a bunch of guys that age.  They are buying ensigns, not brand new sparkly ones, the ones for 2k and fixing them up.  

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/1/2021 at 9:39 PM, bcardarella said:

I am helping build a OD fleet at our YC amongst an ownership group. We have been looking at the J/70 however the costs are too high for us to consider for the ownership group we are putting together. Are there any sport boats that are around 24' in length that sell for less than $30k brand new?

Shaggy's right

I don't know about your area, but before buying the J/70 fleet here we sailed platus, all 23 of them were sold in the range of 5-10k€ (Ours was 23k when we bought it in 2008 and 8k when we sold it in 2012)

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/28/2021 at 9:01 AM, bcardarella said:

@sailordude69 not yet, I think have enough information where we can hold a meting with our members this summer and present the pros/cons of the different choices. We don't plan on buying the fleet until this Fall with the intent on sailing in 2022 so we have some time.

What is on your short list?

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, shaggy said:

What would preclude you from getting say 10 OD boats in the 5k range and fixing them up.  There are plenty of dead classes that were pretty decent back in the day.  It's OD, no need for the latest and greatest thing out there.  Look at the boats they use on the match racing tour..  The Catalinas at SDYC are how old??  Look for a class that had big #'s 10 years ago, pick those up for 2-3 K and fix em up.  That will get you to the price point of these 20 somethings.  The 30K is wayyyy too high for that age group IMHO and I sail with a bunch of guys that age.  They are buying ensigns, not brand new sparkly ones, the ones for 2k and fixing them up.  

My only advice is to get a class that still has a builder. Its painful owning the last of a dying class with falling resale values.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/19/2021 at 10:05 PM, Treads said:

I have an RS21 and all i can say this boat is huge fun. Every time i go out i have a massive grin on my face. She just glides in the light stuff, and can take some big wind and turn it into speed. Me and crew were just playing for speed the other day in 15knts, gusting to 25+ and held a sustained plane at 12.5knts, running slightly forward of the beam with just the jib and main. Didn't manage to get the spin up in the good wind, as by the time we had tacked far enough up the lake it had backed down. Still ran 9.5 to 10 all the way back. Racing tomorrow in a 17 mile race up the lake and back and looking forward to seeing how it holds up in the fleet.

Try one guys and gals, its half the price of a J70 and just as much fun.

Neil

That sounds a lot more fun than a J70 :).  I think in 15kts in a 70 you're in wing and wing mode still...

 

bcardarella, definitely don't hesitate to reach out to the Marblehead Viper fleet if you want to kick the tires anytime this summer (we're always open for going out sailing/racing with new folks), we have boats of almost all vintages in the fleet also:  https://www.facebook.com/groups/Marblehead.Viper.Racing

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/2/2021 at 9:28 AM, Senator Seditious Maximus said:

Hey Boston my 2000 Model Melges 24 lived on hoist nicely for decade by previous owner.  Not my idea since they're so easy hoist or ramp launch.  They're comfy cockpit and good light air and heavy air and any air.  Not one stinking winch onboard unlike the J70 and J80 so easy learning curve and less hardware to wear.  Nice one was just listed for $10k.  Beat that with any other model.

Where the heck are you finding 24s for 10k??

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, LTFF said:

Where the heck are you finding 24s for 10k??

#45 in Vancouver, CA is going for $12k.  The early boats under 100 are said to be light and nice if well cared for. http://melges24.ca/classifieds/

If you're not taking them on the road, as they likely wouldn't for a fleet at Hingham YC.  A bunch could be had under $15k ($10k is less likely) and then you could start investing in them to match them meaning buy all new halyards...etc.  The boats are pretty simply rigged as Senator said.  Hard to go wrong.  I bought #330 for sub $15k recently and I've put some money into it but it's done Miami and Charleston next week and traveling gear was needed.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, WCB said:

#45 in Vancouver, CA is going for $12k.  The early boats under 100 are said to be light and nice if well cared for. http://melges24.ca/classifieds/

If you're not taking them on the road, as they likely wouldn't for a fleet at Hingham YC.  A bunch could be had under $15k ($10k is less likely) and then you could start investing in them to match them meaning buy all new halyards...etc.  The boats are pretty simply rigged as Senator said.  Hard to go wrong.  I bought #330 for sub $15k recently and I've put some money into it but it's done Miami and Charleston next week and traveling gear was needed.

Thats awesome, enjoy it they're a great boat!! I've crewed on one the last few years and would like to get my own. Ideally on the cheaper side, I want to use it locally in the Friday night beer can series. I don't have the time and money to travel just yet, my Radial campaign is the priority for now.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/29/2021 at 8:32 AM, Senator Seditious Maximus said:

Stay away from Chinese junk.

 My Fareast 23r is nicely built and well fitted out. What Chinese built boats have you had bad build experience with?

Link to post
Share on other sites

He has no experience with them. My 28r is for sale and is rock solid and a great build. The lifeline stanchions are a little rusty looking here and there, but the hull and deck layup are excellent and rival any high end layup that I’ve seen. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...