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2 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

Well, when blacks stop burning down other black's homes and businesses when they riot and loot - that wealth might be diminished quite so much.  

https://www.npr.org/2020/08/12/901859883/riots-that-followed-anti-racism-protests-come-at-great-cost-to-black-owned-busin

I see, so white people are like cops, the lowest possible standard is the one use... black people kill black people so it's OK for cops to be murderers.

Black people commit property crime against other black people, therefor it's OK for white people to burn down black peoples homes and/or businesses.

Great logic, there. Absolutely the fastest way to get to "color blind"

- DSK

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1 minute ago, Steam Flyer said:

I see, so white people are like cops, the lowest possible standard is the one use... black people kill black people so it's OK for cops to be murderers.

Black people commit property crime against other black people, therefor it's OK for white people to burn down black peoples homes and/or businesses.

Great logic, there. Absolutely the fastest way to get to "color blind"

- DSK

I'm still struggling to find many references to whites burning down black homes and businesses in the last year or so.  Are we still talking about 1955?

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37 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Horrible dilemma to be in. I suppose I'm looking at it through Australian eyes or even english eyes, where the idea of such covenants is incomprehensible even though we have no "Bill of Rights" 

I realise now, the problem seems to be with weak laws, where the law allows racism to become invasive like a cancer and even feeds it with cash incentives(covenants) . Rather than stamping in out before it spreads.

Those laws were considered vital and strong though, just in the opposite direction. 

 A great case-study is Oakland. Here a prof giving a deep look at how Oakland came to be. It's a story that might shock an Aussie, things about the police screening against more than average intelligence in the force, but every word is true. In it can be seen just how approving of racism America was until the later part of the 20th century.  

 

Whoops, that's the truncated version, here's the full talk. Damn near 10 minutes at the beginning are intros and shit which can be skipped. 

https://www.c-span.org/video/?302567-1/twentieth-century-urban-west

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1 minute ago, Burning Man said:

I'm still struggling to find many references to whites burning down black homes and businesses in the last year or so.  Are we still talking about 1955?

I gave you an FBI cite on hate-crime against property, over 2,000 incidents in 2019 iirc. Want to go back 1 generation and add it up?

To be clear, I am not suggesting that -all- white people are guilty, however white people should join in condemning it.

- DSK

 

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@Fah Kiew Tu earlier, you wrote that my problem is that I can’t escape race in making my pronouncements and recommendations, and so help perpetuate racism.

But while economic metrics are an independent  eligibility metric to determine who is eligible for social support, it doesn’t protect blacks from racial profiling by cops or harsher prison sentences (death penalty for instance) by judges.

Nor would it protect the voting rights of blacks facing Republican state senate majority legislators killing off Sunday “Souls to the polls” for political & economic gain.

When a  significant portion of those making the laws, enforcing the laws and judging application of the laws derive benefit from racist performance of their duty, being wise to it and combatting it to some degree in those terms, or at least by collecting stats to measure it is the only rational approach.

Please go ahead and read the items on my plan & tell me which requires racial stats to determine eligibility. Other than including HBCU with trade schools & community colleges as educational outlets to be fully funded by the government, the others could be done race-blind.

The primary items on my list have nothing overtly to do with race. They are broad based initiatives which better spread the wealth by not concentrating power & socialism in the traditional directions.

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16 minutes ago, phillysailor said:

@Fah Kiew Tu earlier, you wrote that my problem is that I can’t escape race in making my pronouncements and recommendations, and so help perpetuate racism.

But while economic metrics are an independent  eligibility metric to determine who is eligible for social support, it doesn’t protect blacks from racial profiling by cops or harsher prison sentences (death penalty for instance) by judges.

Nor would it protect the voting rights of blacks facing Republican state senate majority legislators killing off Sunday “Souls to the polls” for political & economic gain.

When a  significant portion of those making the laws, enforcing the laws and judging application of the laws derive benefit from racist performance of their duty, being wise to it and combatting it to some degree in those terms, or at least by collecting stats to measure it is the only rational approach.

Please go ahead and read the items on my plan & tell me which requires racial stats to determine eligibility. Other than including HBCU with trade schools & community colleges as educational outlets to be fully funded by the government, the others could be done race-blind.

The primary items on my list have nothing overtly to do with race. They are broad based initiatives which better spread the wealth by not concentrating power & socialism in the traditional directions.

But see, if only we didn't KNOW what race somebody was on an official form, then it would be impossible to have any racist decisions by cops or judges because then they couldn't tell the race of the person standing in front of them... oh wait....

- DSK

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1 hour ago, Mark K said:

Those laws were considered vital and strong though, just in the opposite direction. 

 A great case-study is Oakland. Here a prof giving a deep look at how Oakland came to be. It's a story that might shock an Aussie, things about the police screening against more than average intelligence in the force, but every word is true. In it can be seen just how approving of racism America was until the later part of the 20th century.  

 

Whoops, that's the truncated version, here's the full talk. Damn near 10 minutes at the beginning are intros and shit which can be skipped. 

https://www.c-span.org/video/?302567-1/twentieth-century-urban-west

Wow.

That should be compulsory viewing for every man woman and child in the USA. Puts so many of todays issues in context. 

It watches like a perfect storm. Of deliberate policy, accidental good intentions and complicity of Government, white trade unions and industrial powerhouses. 

I've bookmarked it to watch again later.

Thank you.

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Was in San Francisco early '70s. Went to see my then GF's aunt who lived in Haywards. Amazing house but she hated her neighbours, was a strange old bird. So she told me how as money was no problem she was going to sell to a black family when she moved out just to piss everyone off.

Seems she followed through on the threat a couple of years later.

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21 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

To be clear, I am not suggesting that -all- white people are guilty, however white people should join in condemning it.

ok, I condemn it.  Now what?

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2 hours ago, Bus Driver said:

cruz2.jpeg

What's with that ridiculous chin beard style?  He looks like he should be from the 1700s or something.  It screams douchebag, not that he needed that help.

shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcSoyNhvvZ53q7pGKslBH

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1 minute ago, phillysailor said:

@Burning Man ya might wanna watch John Oliver take down Tucker

 

Why, how is tucker relevant to this conversation?  Who's tucker anyway?

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5 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

Why, how is tucker relevant to this conversation?  Who's tucker anyway?

For someone who never watches FOX and doesn't know who TC is? You are the person that kept coming to mind while watching it.

 

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14 minutes ago, d'ranger said:

For someone who never watches FOX and doesn't know who TC is? You are the person that kept coming to mind while watching it.

 

How so?

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51 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

How so?

Your vocabulary is discussed, as is the way you frame your arguments. You are SA's Tucker Carlson, sometimes. I find your polite, straightforward approach to these issues is eerily reminiscent of Tucker's monetization of hate, and unfortunately believe you would agree with much of what he says that John Oliver finds reprehensible.

Basically, America is having this discussion. Again.

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2 hours ago, phillysailor said:

Your vocabulary is discussed, as is the way you frame your arguments. You are SA's Tucker Carlson, sometimes. I find your polite, straightforward approach to these issues is eerily reminiscent of Tucker's monetization of hate, and unfortunately believe you would agree with much of what he says that John Oliver finds reprehensible.

Basically, America is having this discussion. Again.

So you're saying that a polite straightforward, approach in an attempt to discuss an intractable problem is a bad thing?  I was under the (apparently misguided) assumption that we needed more of that, not less.  And given that I'm not monetizing anything here in attempting to have this discussion, I'm not sure how the comparison with this tucker person is valid.  I've never watched him and don't take my cues from fox or any other source.  My opinions are my own and I own them.  

Again I apologize (not really) if I'm not using acceptable, politically correct, and culturally sensitive language so as not to hurt anyone's feelings here.  We beat around the bush too much when these big issues need demand straightforward talk and bold solutions.  I don't pretend to have all the answers much less even know all the questions.  

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On 3/14/2021 at 5:55 PM, phillysailor said:

@Fah Kiew Tu earlier, you wrote that my problem is that I can’t escape race in making my pronouncements and recommendations, and so help perpetuate racism.

But while economic metrics are an independent  eligibility metric to determine who is eligible for social support, it doesn’t protect blacks from racial profiling by cops or harsher prison sentences (death penalty for instance) by judges.

Nor would it protect the voting rights of blacks facing Republican state senate majority legislators killing off Sunday “Souls to the polls” for political & economic gain.

When a  significant portion of those making the laws, enforcing the laws and judging application of the laws derive benefit from racist performance of their duty, being wise to it and combatting it to some degree in those terms, or at least by collecting stats to measure it is the only rational approach.

Please go ahead and read the items on my plan & tell me which requires racial stats to determine eligibility. Other than including HBCU with trade schools & community colleges as educational outlets to be fully funded by the government, the others could be done race-blind.

The primary items on my list have nothing overtly to do with race. They are broad based initiatives which better spread the wealth by not concentrating power & socialism in the traditional directions.

What I find interesting about your response to FKT and me earlier is that you pretty much admit that your solutions revolve around addressing socioeconomic disparities that have little to do with race itself.  Essentially they are colorblind solutions, rather than being targeted specifically racial issues themselves.  

That is what I've been trying to say this whole time from the very beginning....... STOP focusing on race and instead focus on class and economic issues and you will be default address many of the race and racism issues.  Will it make hateful redneck racists disappear overnight???  Of course not, but by changing the conversation from race to class and addressing real socio economic issues that help everyone - you will remove much or most of the oxygen in the room for racists to be racists.  

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5 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

What I find interesting about your response to FKT and me earlier is that you pretty much admit that your solutions revolve around addressing socioeconomic disparities that have little to do with race itself.  Essentially they are colorblind solutions, rather than being targeted specifically racial issues themselves.  

That is what I've been trying to say this whole time from the very beginning....... STOP focusing on race and instead focus on class and economic issues and you will be default address many of the race and racism issues.  Will it make hateful redneck racists disappear overnight???  Of course not, but by changing the conversation from race to class and addressing real socio economic issues that help everyone - you will remove much or most of the oxygen in the room for racists to be racists.  

 

Well, let's see... "little to do with race itself"

And yet one reason why black families are poorer, on average, than white families is that WHITE PEOPLE BURN THEIR FUCKING HOUSES & BUSINESSES DOWN, gee nothing to to do with race there huh chief

Another little inequity we should address is police killing black men, that obviously has NOTHING to do with race either.

- DSK

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18 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

 

Well, let's see... "little to do with race itself"

And yet one reason why black families are poorer, on average, than white families is that WHITE PEOPLE BURN THEIR FUCKING HOUSES & BUSINESSES DOWN, gee nothing to to do with race there huh chief

Another little inequity we should address is police killing black men, that obviously has NOTHING to do with race either.

- DSK

4157240128_81f2a59afa_z.jpg

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On 3/14/2021 at 6:15 PM, Shortforbob said:

Wow.

That should be compulsory viewing for every man woman and child in the USA. Puts so many of todays issues in context. 

It watches like a perfect storm. Of deliberate policy, accidental good intentions and complicity of Government, white trade unions and industrial powerhouses. 

I've bookmarked it to watch again later.

Thank you.

And southern lynch mobs preventing them from going back. That was a biggie. That was a legacy of the trouble black vets who returned from WW1. Some of them fought back, big time. After that not even Henry Johnson was allowed to speak. Medal of Honor, Cross de Guerre be damned. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Johnson_(World_War_I_soldier)

  By my estimation Obama became POTUS at least 3-4 generations (at least) before the US public was ready for a black POTUS. Much of it, anyway. Trump represents the back-lash.  

 

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1 hour ago, Mark K said:

By my estimation Obama became POTUS at least 3-4 generations (at least) before the US public was ready for a black POTUS. Much of it, anyway. Trump represents the back-lash.  

 

Agree both with timing and trump being the backlash.  Shame that...... Obama was the right man at the wrong time.  

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23 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

 

Well, let's see... "little to do with race itself"

And yet one reason why black families are poorer, on average, than white families is that WHITE PEOPLE BURN THEIR FUCKING HOUSES & BUSINESSES DOWN, gee nothing to to do with race there huh chief

When & where was the last time that happened? Not a single case, houses get burnt down, but as a deliberate policy?

If one goes back a while, I'd agree, you have a lot of history of whites doing shit like that to blacks, but what recent examples with locations and dates can you list?

Because posting IN ALL CAPS kind of indicates that you're emoting not thinking.

As I've said addressing socioeconomic inequity would encompass all those people you claim to want to help, because if they've been screwed over, they'll qualify.

The way you're acting it comes across as a) you refuse to let go of race and b) you're damn determined that those rednecks in single-wides who were part of the problem don't get a cent, which they would on socioeconomic inequity grounds. Which, if true, is short-sighted and stupid because some of them *might* change if they weren't also poor. Some. Not even most, but any progress is good.

But, like most here, you cannot and will not give up on racial classifications, so this shit is going to go right on into the next generation without any change for the better.

In retrospect returning to Australia in 2001 was one of the best decisions of my life.

FKT

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23 hours ago, Mark K said:

And southern lynch mobs preventing them from going back. That was a biggie. That was a legacy of the trouble black vets who returned from WW1. Some of them fought back, big time. After that not even Henry Johnson was allowed to speak. Medal of Honor, Cross de Guerre be damned. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Johnson_(World_War_I_soldier)

  By my estimation Obama became POTUS at least 3-4 generations (at least) before the US public was ready for a black POTUS. Much of it, anyway. Trump represents the back-lash.  

No. I see no evidence that the American public is changing for the better. There are many more than 3 or 4 generations since the Civil War. It just is what it is.

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1 hour ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

When & where was the last time that happened? Not a single case, houses get burnt down, but as a deliberate policy?

If one goes back a while, I'd agree, you have a lot of history of whites doing shit like that to blacks, but what recent examples with locations and dates can you list?

Because posting IN ALL CAPS kind of indicates that you're emoting not thinking.

As I've said addressing socioeconomic inequity would encompass all those people you claim to want to help, because if they've been screwed over, they'll qualify.

The way you're acting it comes across as a) you refuse to let go of race and b) you're damn determined that those rednecks in single-wides who were part of the problem don't get a cent, which they would on socioeconomic inequity grounds. Which, if true, is short-sighted and stupid because some of them *might* change if they weren't also poor. Some. Not even most, but any progress is good.

But, like most here, you cannot and will not give up on racial classifications, so this shit is going to go right on into the next generation without any change for the better.

In retrospect returning to Australia in 2001 was one of the best decisions of my life.

FKT

Let me put it this way... I am frustrated at the pretense it isn't real, that it's some distant past.

Like I said, the FBI detailed over 2,000 racial hate crimes against property... that's not keying somebody's car, that's a serious enough crime to go to the FBI. That's in one year. And it's not an exceptional year, although hate crime is on the rise (as is widely reported). I know of several cases of 1st degree arson against black families in the past couple of years, and it's certainly not all in the South.

Don't know how you get this "cannot and will not give up on racial classifications." Seems to me that it's getting shoved in my face, I'd much prefer the world and it's people should not have this kind of problem. But that does not mean I'm going to pretend it's all better now.

- DSK

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3 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

When & where was the last time that happened? Not a single case, houses get burnt down, but as a deliberate policy?

If one goes back a while, I'd agree, you have a lot of history of whites doing shit like that to blacks, but what recent examples with locations and dates can you list?

Because posting IN ALL CAPS kind of indicates that you're emoting not thinking.

As I've said addressing socioeconomic inequity would encompass all those people you claim to want to help, because if they've been screwed over, they'll qualify.

The way you're acting it comes across as a) you refuse to let go of race and b) you're damn determined that those rednecks in single-wides who were part of the problem don't get a cent, which they would on socioeconomic inequity grounds. Which, if true, is short-sighted and stupid because some of them *might* change if they weren't also poor. Some. Not even most, but any progress is good.

But, like most here, you cannot and will not give up on racial classifications, so this shit is going to go right on into the next generation without any change for the better.

In retrospect returning to Australia in 2001 was one of the best decisions of my life.

FKT

Yup. THIS!^^. All of it. 

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3 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

When & where was the last time that happened? Not a single case, houses get burnt down, but as a deliberate policy?

If one goes back a while, I'd agree, you have a lot of history of whites doing shit like that to blacks, but what recent examples with locations and dates can you list?

Because posting IN ALL CAPS kind of indicates that you're emoting not thinking.

As I've said addressing socioeconomic inequity would encompass all those people you claim to want to help, because if they've been screwed over, they'll qualify.

The way you're acting it comes across as a) you refuse to let go of race and b) you're damn determined that those rednecks in single-wides who were part of the problem don't get a cent, which they would on socioeconomic inequity grounds. Which, if true, is short-sighted and stupid because some of them *might* change if they weren't also poor. Some. Not even most, but any progress is good.

But, like most here, you cannot and will not give up on racial classifications, so this shit is going to go right on into the next generation without any change for the better.

In retrospect returning to Australia in 2001 was one of the best decisions of my life.

FKT

Really, you should read about urban ‘renewal’.

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4 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

But, like most here, you cannot and will not give up on racial classifications, so this shit is going to go right on into the next generation without any change for the better.

They can't give them up and it'll never get better. 

 

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8 hours ago, Burning Man said:

Yup. THIS!^^. All of it. 

Just think, if those Asian women in Atlanta had not been so insistent on having their race recognized and checking off "RACE" on gov't forms, they'd never have gotten killed

- DSK

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I don't know any country in the world that does not keep stats by ethnicity. 

If they don't do that, how are they to determine if discrimination exists, and how severe it is ?? 

But the Reich has discovered that ignoring ethnicity stats is a great way . . 

of disguising white privilege. 

It's really an insult to everyone's intelligence to argue that mentioning or discussing 

racial issues is racist. 

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6 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Just think, if those Asian women in Atlanta had not been so insistent on having their race recognized and checking off "RACE" on gov't forms, they'd never have gotten killed

- DSK

As usual you’re an idiot who projects and jumps to conclusions. Arrested shooter admitted he did it but is had nothing to do with Asian rub n tug. It was because he was a self admitted sexual deviant and he was trying to eliminate any temptations. 
 

The fact that you immediately assume it was race based before having any evadents it was makes YOU the racist. Just saying. 

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3 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

I don't know any country in the world that does not keep stats by ethnicity. 

France. It's basically illegal to do so.

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14 minutes ago, Zonker said:

France. It's basically illegal to do so.

Trying to stay out of this because it's sad and depressing seeing supposedly intelligent people trying to defend their fundamentally racist attitudes (because what ELSE can you call it when they say that everything revolves around race?)...

But AJ is as usual being quite disingenuous. Australia does sort-of keep statistics on ethnicity via *voluntary* questions on the periodic census of all Australians, that's true. But it's high level percentage stuff.

What we do NOT do and NEVER have done is put a fiction such as race on official documents. It's not on birth certificates, passports or drivers licences, nor on any other Govt document of an individual personal nature, anywhere, to my knowledge. There are some places where you can self-identify as something, but it's not universal nor mandatory.

We most definitely do not record anything even close on births, deaths and marriages data or neonatal statistical data. I can state this last with certainty as I've had intimate involvement with such data for nearly 30 years now, and by virtue of my involvement have access to all of it when in the appropriate sites.

So what he's saying is basically bullshit and is the usual deflection from how badly the USA comes across to other First World countries.

The USA is like the fish in water - racism is so ingrained everywhere, Left and Right, that they don't even recognise just how badly they've got it. It's depressing.

FKT

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2 hours ago, Burning Man said:

As usual you’re an idiot who projects and jumps to conclusions. Arrested shooter admitted he did it but is had nothing to do with Asian rub n tug. It was because he was a self admitted sexual deviant and he was trying to eliminate any temptations. 
 

The fact that you immediately assume it was race based before having any evadents it was makes YOU the racist. Just saying. 

No, it makes me an accurate observer... it is just your wishful thinking that I said anything "before having any eva-dents"

- DSK

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6 hours ago, Burning Man said:

As usual you’re an idiot who projects and jumps to conclusions. Arrested shooter admitted he did it but is had nothing to do with Asian rub n tug. It was because he was a self admitted sexual deviant and he was trying to eliminate any temptations. 
 

The fact that you immediately assume it was race based before having any evadents it was makes YOU the racist. Just saying. 

A white guy kills 8 people, 6 of whom are Asian, and you call those who think those stats indicate a racial element racist?

And you are using police statements of the fuckwit murderer to declare case closed on the issue?

You have zero evidence, my friend. You only have hearsay, as reported by LEOs. The only person reacting to facts was Steamers. 

This murderous, racist shithead was apparently bonkers in a way that embroiled Asian women into his self-loathing sex life. Overwhelmed by some trigger, he acted out against that group, killing the source of his angst and your ludicrous amateur internet psych degree causes you to believe race had nothing to do with his killing spree?

You are the class A idiot, my friend.

You don’t know what evidence is, you can’t understand the bias or political/social calculations LEOs bring to the job nor how it might impact the statements they release, and you would believe a deranged killer despite the very obvious statement made by his murders.

You really should apologize to Steamers.

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Apparently Atlanta’s mayor agrees with me on possible LEO bias

Atlanta mayor says she won’t condone ‘victim blaming’ in Tuesday’s spa shootings

Furthermore, in a Facebook page associated with Capt. Jay Baker of the Cherokee Sheriff’s Office, several photos show the law enforcer was promoting T-shirts with the slogan “COVID-19 imported virus from CHY-NA.”

21-317-baker-tease_heghzf

...and The Onion proves my point about @Burning Man taking the suspect’s word as proof

Atlanta Police Rule Out Mass Shooting As Cause Of Death After Suspect Says He Didn’t Shoot Anyone

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I think nothing proves the point of systemic racism in policing than a police spokesman using social media to promote racism.

But Jeffy seems to agree with the GOP’s usual scientific goals for awkward topics: don’t measure it.

If you don’t measure gun violence or police shooting statistics, you don’t have to grapple with the results.

If you ban the term “evidence based medicine” from CDC publications, the president can make medical pronouncements without pesky scientific interference.

And if you muzzle scientists who have published on global warming, then energy companies can continue to receive governmental subsidies & American socialism can continue to enrich their funding oligarchy.

Jeffy is cool with this approach to race in America. Don’t measure race so the GOP can continue to enforce racism in cop shops, courts, banks, school systems and society.

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22 hours ago, Burning Man said:

Arrested shooter admitted he did it but is had nothing to do with Asian rub n tug. It was because he was a self admitted sexual deviant and he was trying to eliminate any temptations. 
 

The fact that you immediately assume it was race based before having any evadents it was makes YOU the racist. Just saying. 

Check the route on google maps.  Between the first shooting and the other 2, he drove past a half-dozen other massage parlors. 

Why those 3?  

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17 minutes ago, frenchie said:

Check the route on google maps.  Between the first shooting and the other 2, he drove past a half-dozen other massage parlors. 

Why those 3?  

Something about the women in those places he bypassed just wasn't very tempting. 

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On 3/14/2021 at 6:23 PM, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Funny because that's what you said.

No, it's not. It's just what you tried to reductio ad absurdum it into. 

Quote

Perhaps you should examine and try to articulate what you really think, then.

Want to have another try?

I don't think you can manage to do it because, like it seems the vast majority of US citizens, black is what you want it to be and always will be so.

You're being hilariously off-target.  I'm French-Canadian.  Raised in Canada.  I was 31 years old when I moved to the US  -  and a part of the US that's very different from most of America, at that. 

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On 3/14/2021 at 6:23 PM, Fah Kiew Tu said:

You can't even think in terms of socioeconomic disadvantage.

We weren't talking about socio-economic status, were we?  We were talking about Meghan Markle...  

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23 hours ago, Burning Man said:

As usual you’re an idiot who projects and jumps to conclusions. Arrested shooter admitted he did it but is had nothing to do with Asian rub n tug. It was because he was a self admitted sexual deviant and he was trying to eliminate any temptations. 
 

The fact that you immediately assume it was race based before having any evadents it was makes YOU the racist. Just saying. 

Jeff, you are taking the explanation of an idiot murderer at face value. Congratulations. In related news, Abraham Lincoln was a tyrant because John Wilkes Booth said he was.

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