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Secret Hallberg-Rassy project


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HR apparently working on a new model, to be presented later this year.

Any idea what the size might be? They are playing the teasing game:

1-1.jpg

Snippet looks like it's rather on the larger size range.

I would so wish to see a new HR in the 30 ft range. That would be a hot-seller for couples, in my view, and a perfect successor to the 310.

But my guess is that the economies don't add up in that range for HR, minimum seems to be the 340 for longer?

 

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The new dual rudder designs seem like a bad idea on a cruising boat.

- maneuverability in docking without twin thrusters

-more under water appendages to collide with something

-difficult to rig emergency steering

-questionable lazarette storage space

.All to make a little faster boat (not a prime priority for me in a cruising boat) and more wow factor in the aft cabin volume?

 

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18 minutes ago, ChuteFirst said:

The new dual rudder designs seem like a bad idea on a cruising boat.

- maneuverability in docking without twin thrusters

-more under water appendages to collide with something

-difficult to rig emergency steering

-questionable lazarette storage space

.All to make a little faster boat (not a prime priority for me in a cruising boat) and more wow factor in the aft cabin volume?

 

Interesting view. Counter view.

If you smash up one rudder you have another, granted you could punch a hole in the hull.

I've not noticed them being much less manoverability than a single rudder.

I don't particularly like the fat boat fad, but it gives you a lot of room which can be used to store stuff if you choose to.

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36 minutes ago, European Bloke said:

Interesting view. Counter view.

If you smash up one rudder you have another, granted you could punch a hole in the hull.

I've not noticed them being much less manoverability than a single rudder.

I don't particularly like the fat boat fad, but it gives you a lot of room which can be used to store stuff if you choose to.

Sailing, the reports I hear are that twin rudders are pretty sweet.  But I can tell you from experience that without a stern thruster, maneuverability is notably impaired due to lack of wash over the rudder. Thrusters solve the problem but add to cost and complexity, albeit, today's reliability and easy availability make thrusters much less problematic on today's boats for today's owners.  My #1 objection to twin rudders is having one more appendage to catch grass, kelp, fishing gear (not mine, I don't have any of THAT stuff on my boat...) etc

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On 3/4/2021 at 6:55 AM, Dogscout said:

Single hatch that far forward looks like a sub 40' er

Don't think so. No trunk cabin that you'd find on a smaller boat. That hatch would be going into a forepeak storage locker.

So I think a 50+ boat makes sense as a guess.

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About 6’ between the forward hatch and the bow pulpit. My 40 footer doesn’t have one so my guess is around 60’ or so. 

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1 hour ago, Sail4beer said:

About 6’ between the forward hatch and the bow pulpit. My 40 footer doesn’t have one so my guess is around 60’ or so. 

Likely true.

Oh well, back to looking for a boat for us (not so) common 95 percenters....

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HRs of any given era tend to look like a bit like the same design with different settings of enlargement.  The sales figures show it's a case of NTAWWT.

I am not so persuaded by the anti-twin-rudder lobby.  Maybe there's a case for a different hull shape, but so long as designers go for such broad sterns, single rudders have problems.

Twin rudders give better control, which means lower helm loads, which means lower electrical demands from the autopilot.  That's an important factor for HR's customers.

These days, HR buyers are going for electric everything, so they spec bow and stern thrusters.  No manoeuvring problems.

So I think twin rudders are here to stay for this market.  Slimmer sterns means smaller aft cabin, and that will be a hard sell to HR's market.

 

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 I recently saw the Uma couple test sail an all electric boat...can't remeber the brand.

Anyway, it had a VERY long fin keel and bulb with twin electric motors/props out board.

May I suggest that HR is doing something similar.

Small skeg in front of the twin props for prop protection in front of the twin rudders.

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Maybe they are finally building Dr Electron's boat...

 

I know, I know... I'll get my coat...

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On 3/4/2021 at 5:31 PM, ChuteFirst said:

The new dual rudder designs seem like a bad idea on a cruising boat.

- maneuverability in docking without twin thrusters

-more under water appendages to collide with something

-difficult to rig emergency steering

-questionable lazarette storage space

.All to make a little faster boat (not a prime priority for me in a cruising boat) and more wow factor in the aft cabin volume?

With fat arse you'll need either twin rudders or deep one?

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10 hours ago, RobbieP said:

 I recently saw the Uma couple test sail an all electric boat...can't remeber the brand.

Anyway, it had a VERY long fin keel and bulb with twin electric motors/props out board.

May I suggest that HR is doing something similar.

Small skeg in front of the twin props for prop protection in front of the twin rudders.

The boat tested by Uma is a Salona 46:

 

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On 3/4/2021 at 8:55 AM, Dogscout said:

Single hatch that far forward looks like a sub 40' er

That's for the unlucky captain and crew to get to there crew vomit chamber.  Have seen on 50 and 60' boats. Tiny double with a head just aft of chain locker normal access thru hatch with possible water tight into fwd owner cabins.

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4 hours ago, SASSAFRASS said:

That's for the unlucky captain and crew to get to there crew vomit chamber.  Have seen on 50 and 60' boats. Tiny double with a head just aft of chain locker normal access thru hatch with possible water tight into fwd owner cabins.

Keeps the crew on watch in any sea state. "Letmethinkaboutthis...stay in the anchor locker and vomit, or party with the rich people in the middle of the boat..." Yeah, I'll just stay here and vomit."

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On 3/4/2021 at 5:32 PM, Veeger said:

Sailing, the reports I hear are that twin rudders are pretty sweet.  But I can tell you from experience that without a stern thruster, maneuverability is notably impaired due to lack of wash over the rudder. Thrusters solve the problem but add to cost and complexity, albeit, today's reliability and easy availability make thrusters much less problematic on today's boats for today's owners.  My #1 objection to twin rudders is having one more appendage to catch grass, kelp, fishing gear (not mine, I don't have any of THAT stuff on my boat...) etc

A bow thruster is enough to point the bow where you want it to point and most bigger boats have one nowadays... on a not so big boat you can also learn to use your spring lines and the wind to your advantage.

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On 3/5/2021 at 5:32 AM, Veeger said:

Sailing, the reports I hear are that twin rudders are pretty sweet.  But I can tell you from experience that without a stern thruster, maneuverability is notably impaired due to lack of wash over the rudder. Thrusters solve the problem but add to cost and complexity, albeit, today's reliability and easy availability make thrusters much less problematic on today's boats for today's owners.  My #1 objection to twin rudders is having one more appendage to catch grass, kelp, fishing gear (not mine, I don't have any of THAT stuff on my boat...) etc

Seems like you could solve some problems there with an IPS Drive.

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1 hour ago, Matagi said:

It is the new HR 400.

HR400-intro-01.jpg

Back in the days of wooden boats, they used to say of the English Hillyard cruisers that they "build 'em by the mile, and ell 'em by the yard".

Hallberg-Rassy maintains that tradition.   Same shape, just choose the length.

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6 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Back in the days of wooden boats, they used to say of the English Hillyard cruisers that they "build 'em by the mile, and ell 'em by the yard".

Hallberg-Rassy maintains that tradition.   Same shape, just choose the length.

Like salami at a butcher's shop? "Gimme about an arm's worth, Tony."

The wheels look very far back on that HR. Like, I'd be constantly looking down at my heels to make sure they were in the boat. Does it have some sort of tailgate, or do you take boarding waves up your trouser leg?

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1 hour ago, Diarmuid said:

Like salami at a butcher's shop? "Gimme about an arm's worth, Tony."

The wheels look very far back on that HR. Like, I'd be constantly looking down at my heels to make sure they were in the boat. Does it have some sort of tailgate, or do you take boarding waves up your trouser leg?

Diarmuid, these days HRs have electric everything.  So I presume that the wheels are just for show, and that steering is all done by by iPad from the big bonkbed under the cockpit.

Now that HR have automated all the sailing, they need something new to maintain their competitive edge and stop their clients getting bored.  Sex toys for the bonkbed would be a real USP.  

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It will use the existing hull of the 40C. I suspect they keep the positioning of the rudders, so that might have something to do with that. But I agree, it's very far aft, but it wasn't that much more forward on the 412 either.

7_31fff7a631.jpeg

2_49d9bdcc74.jpeg

 

The 412 will go out of business, here's for comparison, old:

Hallberg-Rassy 412

New:

d_fbfb92cc1a.jpeg

 

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20 minutes ago, Matagi said:

The 412 will go out of business, here's for comparison, old:

They are very similar.  It needs a careful eye to spot the differences, which are basically that the new boat has a wider stern, so it gets twin rudders and a total of three bonkbeds.

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Dunno about having twin thrusters on a 40' boat, but I could live with it.

Are the modern vertical-backed settees as uncomfortable as they look?

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The twin rudders are an unfortunate trickle down into the cruising market that doesn't really fit the overall needs of a cruising boat. 

 

On average, tight quarters handling and/or docking shorthanded in an offshore breeze is par for the course. Its not some kind of afterthought that takes a backseat to so-called sailing performance. 

To me, not having rudder wash as a facet of close quarters handling under power on a single engined monohull,  is not only a pain in the ass, its a deal breaker. 

Having to install a stern thruster on a 40 footer to compensate for the twin rudders? Yeah right. 

 

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Twin rudders a deal breaker for me too.

I am actually their demographic - old dude life long sailor with more money than time left, wanting a brand new bullet proof 40 footer I can single hand day sailing or passage making with confidence. And not be a bitch to dock without the assistance of two electro mechanical contraptions that descend from the bottom of the boat, until they don't.

I see twin rudders as the consequential necessity of trying to create volume below and extra cockpit space. Don't see either of those as good in a passage maker which I thought was HR's focus.

More volume below doesn't equate to more storage below. And twin rudders rob lazarette space.

Going from one protected rudder (a single rudder is inline with the keel and gets protection that way) to two completely unprotected ones?

A sailing buddy of mine hit a whale recently 1500 nm from land and spent 10 dreadful days with the rudder loose in its stern tube and the pumps working overtime as they surfed down waves before finally making landfall. Same guy on a Hawaii - California delivery snagged a huge ball of fishing lines and floats that due to nasty conditions required them to sail with it 900 nm before conditions calmed enough to get someone in the water to cut it all free.

Hitting something like whales and other crap is something you cannot really avoid through diligence and planning.

Anybody know a new 40 footer build that might fit the bill given my rant?

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Seems like it is missing the 21st century reality that everyone needs a big cargo hold/dinghy garage to hold the toys.

And yeah, put that wheel up in the front of the cockpit.  Or better yet, a decent gentleman’s tiller that can be disengaged and stowed when the gentleman gets tired and turns things over to the gadgets!

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2 hours ago, ChuteFirst said:

Twin rudders a deal breaker for me too.

I am actually their demographic - old dude life long sailor with more money than time left, wanting a brand new bullet proof 40 footer I can single hand day sailing or passage making with confidence. And not be a bitch to dock without the assistance of two electro mechanical contraptions that descend from the bottom of the boat, until they don't.

I see twin rudders as the consequential necessity of trying to create volume below and extra cockpit space. Don't see either of those as good in a passage maker which I thought was HR's focus.

More volume below doesn't equate to more storage below. And twin rudders rob lazarette space.

Going from one protected rudder (a single rudder is inline with the keel and gets protection that way) to two completely unprotected ones?

A sailing buddy of mine hit a whale recently 1500 nm from land and spent 10 dreadful days with the rudder loose in its stern tube and the pumps working overtime as they surfed down waves before finally making landfall. Same guy on a Hawaii - California delivery snagged a huge ball of fishing lines and floats that due to nasty conditions required them to sail with it 900 nm before conditions calmed enough to get someone in the water to cut it all free.

Hitting something like whales and other crap is something you cannot really avoid through diligence and planning.

Anybody know a new 40 footer build that might fit the bill given my rant?

A quick perusal of other Swedish builders shows that the twin rudder/thruster dependent configuration hasn’t (yet) come to the likes of Najad, X-Yachts, Malo, Sweden Yachts, etc. They pretty much all have high quality build but are currently something a little more along the lines of what you’re wanting.  Of the lot, I’d go with the Najad 395AC version perhaps.  I note that one of the popular Youtubers, RAN sailing have refitted with an in-mast furling rig and a LOT of electronic gizmos to handle and reef that system “...all with a push of the button”.  Great for a young family but too much in the ‘everything electric’ mindset.  (Of course, there was a time when I didn’t want a car with electric windows ‘cuz they were so unreliable and expensive to repair). We’ll probably get used to the dependency on electrons....

But I still remember the simplicity of a few wooden blocks and a bronze mainsail track with some fondness....  Loved the clack, clack, clack of the slides going down and coming up.  Much preferable to hoping that you hear the whine of a few electric motors, strain gauges and blinking red, green and orange LEDs when you pushah, da button...

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1 hour ago, Veeger said:

A quick perusal of other Swedish builders shows that the twin rudder/thruster dependent configuration hasn’t (yet) come to the likes of Najad, X-Yachts, Malo, Sweden Yachts, etc. They pretty much all have high quality build but are currently something a little more along the lines of what you’re wanting.  Of the lot, I’d go with the Najad 395AC version perhaps.  I note that one of the popular Youtubers, RAN sailing have refitted with an in-mast furling rig and a LOT of electronic gizmos to handle and reef that system “...all with a push of the button”.  Great for a young family but too much in the ‘everything electric’ mindset.  (Of course, there was a time when I didn’t want a car with electric windows ‘cuz they were so unreliable and expensive to repair). We’ll probably get used to the dependency on electrons....

But I still remember the simplicity of a few wooden blocks and a bronze mainsail track with some fondness....  Loved the clack, clack, clack of the slides going down and coming up.  Much preferable to hoping that you hear the whine of a few electric motors, strain gauges and blinking red, green and orange LEDs when you pushah, da button...

X-Yachts is danish, it even says so on the side of the cockpit coamings.

 

MGR00104-1920x1280.jpg

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7 hours ago, ChuteFirst said:

I see twin rudders as the consequential necessity of trying to create volume below and extra cockpit space. Don't see either of those as good in a passage maker which I thought was HR's focus.

I thought that HR's focus was luxurious cruising boats for middle class herd-followers.  The priorities are fine joinery with mahogany and carpet, and a global service network with a complete record of each boat as shipped so that the boat can be maintained like a posh car. 

Beyond that, HR follows the market.  The market wants bonkbeds, so HR gives them bonkbeds.  The market wants pushbutton sailing, so HR gives them electric everything.  And the market seems to want the fat stern + twin rudder setup.

I am unpersuaded by the anti-twin-rudder lobby.   Most of the structural concerns can be resolved by good engineering ... and for an ocean-crossing boat, improved downwind steering control is surely a higher priority than marina docking.

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1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

I thought that HR's focus was luxurious cruising boats for middle class herd-followers.  The priorities are fine joinery with mahogany and carpet, and a global service network with a complete record of each boat as shipped so that the boat can be maintained like a posh car. 

Beyond that, HR follows the market.  The market wants bonkbeds, so HR gives them bonkbeds.  The market wants pushbutton sailing, so HR gives them electric everything.  And the market seems to want the fat stern + twin rudder setup.

I am unpersuaded by the anti-twin-rudder lobby.   Most of the structural concerns can be resolved by good engineering ... and for an ocean-crossing boat, improved downwind steering control is surely a higher priority than marina docking.

Right. And I agree with many things being unnecessary or at least questionable in the newer models. 

I never thought much of the folding TV and the TV chairs, or getting rid of a chart table in the 310.

But, of all the brands mentioned further above, only X-Yachts and Hallberg-Rassy have really been succesful and have weathered some pretty bad times. Malo, Sweden, Najad, they never managed to reinvent themselves, and much of their audience has either died out or isn't buying any more, some surely literally 'jumped ship'.

It's a low-volume, high-upfront-investment business. You always walk a very fine line. I sure love the 'old' 412 more, I think it's fantastic looking. But I understand that in order to survive, HR must move on.

I am very curios to see what (and if!) that will mean something down the range. X-Yachts have been very inactive in that field lately, and I have been thinking for some time now, that there is an opportunity for a high-end 30-32 ft boat that especially targets mid-aged to senior couples, but is a bit more capable than the Hanse 315 (one example), a successor to the HR 29 is my secret dream here.

But I think, tooling and design costs compared to the possible target price are much less attractive than taking the existing hull of the 40 and making an AC version of it, a very sensible move!

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28 minutes ago, Matagi said:

I am very curios to see what (and if!) that will mean something down the range. X-Yachts have been very inactive in that field lately, and I have been thinking for some time now, that there is an opportunity for a high-end 30-32 ft boat that especially targets mid-aged to senior couples, but is a bit more capable than the Hanse 315 (one example), a successor to the HR 29 is my secret dream here.

Matagi, my reckoning is that HR knows its market very well.  That's one of the reasons why why it is, as you rightly point out, the big survivor of what was once a more equally-matched set of Swedish yards.  (I have hunch that another factor is family ownership which allowed cautious financing rather than high leverage, allowing it to survive downturns).

So I reckon that if there was a market for that quality 29-footer, HR would be making it.

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1 hour ago, Matagi said:

 a successor to the HR 29 is my secret dream here.

I have a soft spot for the original Enderlein HR29. I helped a good friend sea trial one. He keeps it in Bremen now and cruises with his young family. Great boat for that purpose. Probably too slow for this crowd, but was nice and dry with that square chop you get.

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1 hour ago, Matagi said:

DSC03799.thumb.JPG.e98b34a7a75c94ad84b5144b7569342e.JPG

My retirement plan: 'Honey, I'm off for Tobermory, you comin'?'

Which one? Ontario? I'm sure she would make it. Might take a while. 

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5 minutes ago, Elegua said:

Which one? Ontario? I'm sure she would make it. Might take a while. 

Depends on the density of distilleries in Ontario. My bet would be on the Scottish one, though.

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9 minutes ago, Matagi said:

Depends on the density of distilleries in Ontario. My bet would be on the Scottish one, though.

Once had a bottle of Tobermory Single Malt - quite rare as the local distillery sells 99% of its production to the blenders. 'Characterful' is perhaps the best word to describe the taste, meaning really nice, but not for you average whiskey drinker...

I was anchored in Tobermory bay on 9/11 - saw the images on the tv in the youth hostel the day after - felt like a punch in the gut.

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On 3/12/2021 at 11:51 PM, TwoLegged said:

I thought that HR's focus was luxurious cruising boats for middle class herd-followers.  The priorities are fine joinery with mahogany and carpet, and a global service network with a complete record of each boat as shipped so that the boat can be maintained like a posh car. 

Beyond that, HR follows the market.  The market wants bonkbeds, so HR gives them bonkbeds.  The market wants pushbutton sailing, so HR gives them electric everything.  And the market seems to want the fat stern + twin rudder setup.

I am unpersuaded by the anti-twin-rudder lobby.   Most of the structural concerns can be resolved by good engineering ... and for an ocean-crossing boat, improved downwind steering control is surely a higher priority than marina docking.

No, HRs have always been offshore boats, not coastal furniture showrooms. And they didn’t start paying German Frers to design them because they were complacent about performance.

Price ranges for the boats is not middle class. They’re pretty expensive new, and they hold their value. We spent more on ours than we did on our house. And we lived right on the water and had a guest house...

Of course ours was the biggest they made when it was built, but even the smaller boats have a much higher entry price than the Benehuntalinas of comparable size.

 

 

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2 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

No, HRs have always been offshore boats, not coastal furniture showrooms. And they didn’t start paying German Frers to design them because they were complacent about performance.

Price ranges for the boats is not middle class. They’re pretty expensive new, and they hold their value. We spent more on ours than we did on our house. And we lived right on the water and had a guest house...

Of course ours was the biggest they made when it was built, but even the smaller boats have a much higher entry price than the Benehuntalinas of comparable size.

BJ, part of this is a definitional issue: the United States has largely dropped the term "working class", and uses "middle class" to cover similar social strata.  I follow European usages, which assign the term a meaning closer to the Marxist concept of "bourgeois", i.e. people with both significant capital assets and significant disposable income.

HR targets the upper end of that middle class very well.  Most of its sales volume is in the 31 to 44ft range, where AFAICS list prices range from €169K to €544K, all before VAT.  So it seems that if we take a 40ft centre cockpit boat as a typical HR, that the current 40C which on the water seems to be about €370K ex VAT, so say €550K–€600K on the water, tax paid and averagely equipped.

That €600K is a lot of years's post-tax income even for a professional couple, but in the last three or for decades the middle classes have been raking in the money from asset value inflation.  For many such people in Dublin or London, the HR40 can be bought for cash by downsizing the family home, or selling ma+pa's place after their demise, etc.

That market doesn't include schoolteachers or nurses.  But it includes doctors and lawyers and many people who don't own big chunks of industry.  HR sells to them not to Gordon Gekko.

And yes, HR's pitch is not coastal.  It's also not expeditionary like Boreal, nor offshore-focused like Oyster: its pitch seems to me to be "bluewater-capable": boats that you can safely cross the Atlantic in, but which will also work nicely for pottering around the Baltic or the Med or the Hebrides.  Right now, the luxury end of that "bluewater-capable" market seems to be dominated by HR and X-yachts.

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6 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

BJ, part of this is a definitional issue: the United States has largely dropped the term "working class", and uses "middle class" to cover similar social strata.  I follow European usages, which assign the term a meaning closer to the Marxist concept of "bourgeois", i.e. people with both significant capital assets and significant disposable income.

HR targets the upper end of that middle class very well.  Most of its sales volume is in the 31 to 44ft range, where AFAICS list prices range from €169K to €544K, all before VAT.  So it seems that if we take a 40ft centre cockpit boat as a typical HR, that the current 40C which on the water seems to be about €370K ex VAT, so say €550K–€600K on the water, tax paid and averagely equipped.

That €600K is a lot of years's post-tax income even for a professional couple, but in the last three or for decades the middle classes have been raking in the money from asset value inflation.  For many such people in Dublin or London, the HR40 can be bought for cash by downsizing the family home, or selling ma+pa's place after their demise, etc.

That market doesn't include schoolteachers or nurses.  But it includes doctors and lawyers and many people who don't own big chunks of industry.  HR sells to them not to Gordon Gekko.

And yes, HR's pitch is not coastal.  It's also not expeditionary like Boreal, nor offshore-focused like Oyster: its pitch seems to me to be "bluewater-capable": boats that you can safely cross the Atlantic in, but which will also work nicely for pottering around the Baltic or the Med or the Hebrides.  Right now, the luxury end of that "bluewater-capable" market seems to be dominated by HR and X-yachts.

You have a very different definition of "middle class" then we do, I suppose.

Middle Class in the U.S. is a vanishing species, and was typified more by skilled trades, teachers, and the like. Doctors and lawyers were generally in a very different income strata, though "upper middle class" could apply there.

We never had the issue of gentry to step around.

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I spent a bit in the late 90's working for a rigging shop in Seattle that was commissioning most of the west coast HR's.  At that time there was zero demographic grouping of owners. They were all over the map.  The only common denominator was people who had been smart with their money.

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12 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

You have a very different definition of "middle class" then we do, I suppose.

Middle Class in the U.S. is a vanishing species, and was typified more by skilled trades, teachers, and the like. Doctors and lawyers were generally in a very different income strata, though "upper middle class" could apply there.

We never had the issue of gentry to step around.

Murica has a different sort of upper class: not landed wealth like England, but industrial magnates.  Vanderbilts and Rockefellers are the Murican equivalent of England's dukes.

In the UK and Ireland, the skilled trades, teachers etc would be labelled as upper working-class or lower middle-class.

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I’ve read somewhere that you can ask anybody - bums under a bridge or billionaires in a snotty YC, and everybody will tell you in all earnestness they are middle class. ... that is because they are - within their peer groups. :blink: 

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21 hours ago, 10thTonner said:

I’ve read somewhere that you can ask anybody - bums under a bridge or billionaires in a snotty YC, and everybody will tell you in all earnestness they are middle class. ... that is because they are - within their peer groups. :blink: 

 There are many Britons today who aspire to have Working Class backgrounds. A working class hero, after all, is something to be.  Unfortunately, however, the majority of those who aspire to actually be working class belong to the underclass.

 When commentators ask why the "working class" votes Tory, they miss the key point that most of those they put in that category are well enough off that the prospect of tax cuts appeals to them more than the risk of a "labour" government that they don't trust with their jobs (at least, not while they are out of sight in a polling booth).

 The underclass don't vote much:   unsurprisingly, then, they also don't get much attention from politicians, except to ensure they continue to provide cheap, flexible labour at minimal cost while lip service is paid to improving their lot (largely intended to virtue-signal to actual voters, not change anything that costs money).

 The current class system is not "rigid" in the traditional sense that you are born to a position and cannot move from it, but incredibly complex and linked to subtle cues regarding upbringing, social status and shared culture. It means very different things to the rich, the affluent and the underprivileged... social mobility (which always means upwards) is not about money, per se, but about opportunity, entitlement and expectations. What you do with your money depends, in turn, on those things and expresses, but does not define, class.

 Simplified explanations of "the British class system" don't provide much insight, there are usually more exceptions than rules. In some ways it's more useful to think that it's the exceptions that define the rules and shed light on the real implications of the values that are behind it.

Cheers,

               W.

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  • 7 months later...

Old string and a bit of disappointment but back on topic I was hoping what turned out to be the new 400 was a 370.  372 feels like an old design but a great seize for us.   Now 11 years old hoping a 370 would be coming soon.   We asked HR but they gave no indication if or when a new 37ish would be coming.  Hmmmmmm

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49 minutes ago, Epi-sailor said:

Old string and a bit of disappointment but back on topic I was hoping what turned out to be the new 400 was a 370.  372 feels like an old design but a great seize for us.   Now 11 years old hoping a 370 would be coming soon.   We asked HR but they gave no indication if or when a new 37ish would be coming.  Hmmmmmm

what would you be looking for in a new 37-footer HR that the HR372 doesn't have?

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On 3/16/2021 at 7:24 AM, European Bloke said:

It's been suggested that a simple definition of upper class is that you don't buy your furniture.

May have been used as an insult by a Tory minister if I remember correctly.

One of the all time best examples of the sort of supercilious condescension at which the Brit U.C.'s are unrivaled.

"He's the sort of person who buys his own furniture".

The longer it's been since anyone in your family did anything useful, the higher your status.

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On 3/16/2021 at 8:06 AM, WGWarburton said:

  The current class system is not "rigid" in the traditional sense that you are born to a position and cannot move from it, but incredibly complex and linked to subtle cues regarding upbringing, social status and shared culture. It means very different things to the rich, the affluent and the underprivileged... social mobility (which always means upwards) is not about money, per se,

It's always about money.

The old money has always perpetrated that myth that it's about breeding and it's vulgar to talk about money solely in order to keep the lower orders from acquiring any and imperiling their hold on most of it.

If you have money you will always be accepted by them, albeit with countless slights to ensure you know your place is below the salt.

Even if you are American or Arab.

Why do you think they have always married solely for money and position?

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

It's always about money.

The old money has always perpetrated that myth that it's about breeding and it's vulgar to talk about money solely in order to keep the lower orders from acquiring any and imperiling their hold on most of it.

If you have money you will always be accepted by them, albeit with countless slights to ensure you know your place is below the salt.

Even if you are American or Arab.

Why do you think they have always married solely for money and position?

Sloop, I have had some close-up dealings with that system.  I'd say it is about money, but only secondarily.  It is ultimately about power, and money is one of the key tools which can make power.

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14 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Sloop, I have had some close-up dealings with that system.  I'd say it is about money, but only secondarily.  It is ultimately about power, and money is one of the key tools which can make power.

Me too and I found that money & power were essentially inseparable in that context.

Although the Brits do have a social category that doesn't really exist in other societies - "Genteel Poverty".

That describes old money families that lost their money - they still have the accent and breeding so they can still look down their noses at people with money that was acquired recently (within the past century or two)

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8 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

what would you be looking for in a new 37-footer HR that the HR372 doesn't have?

We have recently sailed the 340 and looked hard at the 400 and 372.   What we prefer with the newer designs are an updated cockpit with a bit more room and a move away from the large single wheel. We also like the added beam aft and twin rudders. The 340 sailed very well on all points particularly when being “pressed” I’m guessing form stability and twin rudders were part of this.    Also fans of the new generation HR transom with fold down platform.  Increased LWL for given LOA with newer designs.  The newer designs have also been designed so that you can order the boat without a teak deck.  Etc.   

For us the 372 is the perfect size but prefer the design language of their newer designs.   The question at our house is do we wait for a revised 37 or move forward with a 340 or 400.   

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5 hours ago, Epi-sailor said:

We have recently sailed the 340 and looked hard at the 400 and 372.   What we prefer with the newer designs are an updated cockpit with a bit more room and a move away from the large single wheel. We also like the added beam aft and twin rudders. The 340 sailed very well on all points particularly when being “pressed” I’m guessing form stability and twin rudders were part of this.    Also fans of the new generation HR transom with fold down platform.  Increased LWL for given LOA with newer designs.  The newer designs have also been designed so that you can order the boat without a teak deck.  Etc.   

Thank, Epi.  I guessed that the twin rudder and broader stern would be an attraction, but didn't want to ask a leading question.   And the no-teak-deck option sounds like a good idea.  Even tho I think the newer teak decks are glued rather than screwed (so the deck core is safe, there's still a maintenance headache to avoid.

However, does the new hull shape really give a longer LWL for given LOA?   It seems to me that it gives a a longer LWL for given LOD, but can make that work with an anchor only by adding a bowsprit ... so the actual LOA/LWL ratio has changed only if the bowsprit is magically omitted from the calculations, which a marina may not do.

5 hours ago, Epi-sailor said:

For us the 372 is the perfect size but prefer the design language of their newer designs.   The question at our house is do we wait for a revised 37 or move forward with a 340 or 400.   

Personally, I wouldn't want an early version of any big production item, car or boat.  I'd prefer to wait until the bugs have been ironed out.  HR vessels are probably similar enough that there aren't many new buggy items in each new model, but I'd still prefer a boat that had been in production for a year or two.

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On 10/28/2021 at 11:39 PM, TwoLegged said:

Thank, Epi.  I guessed that the twin rudder and broader stern would be an attraction, but didn't want to ask a leading question.   And the no-teak-deck option sounds like a good idea.  Even tho I think the newer teak decks are glued rather than screwed (so the deck core is safe, there's still a maintenance headache to avoid.

RE teak decks: you are correct they are glued down.  I love teak and I love boat projects but simply not too interested in maintaining that much if given the option.  

On 10/28/2021 at 11:39 PM, TwoLegged said:

However, does the new hull shape really give a longer LWL for given LOA?   It seems to me that it gives a a longer LWL for given LOD, but can make that work with an anchor only by adding a bowsprit ... so the actual LOA/LWL ratio has changed only if the bowsprit is magically omitted from the calculations, which a marina may not do.

 

Again spot on: using the 340 and 372 as comparators

340 LOD 10.36; LOA (with sprit) 10.95; LWL 10.10

372 LOD 11.35; LOA 11.35; LWL 10.25

370 based on my interpretation; LOD 11.35; LOA (with sprit) 11.9ish; LWL 10.75 ish

To me the numbers look great.  And again to one of your points it fits nicely in a 40’ slip.   

On 10/28/2021 at 11:39 PM, TwoLegged said:

Personally, I wouldn't want an early version of any big production item, car or boat.  I'd prefer to wait until the bugs have been ironed out.  HR vessels are probably similar enough that there aren't many new buggy items in each new model, but I'd still prefer a boat that had been in production for a year or two.

HR reps have told us two thing re a possible 370.  First, dealers in the field want one as it appears to be a frequent question.  The 372 is now 11 years old and the only model that has not been updated to their new design language.  Secondly, HR have indicated that they are not moving in this direction.  
Anyway Twolegged, thanks for the thoughts and questions we are at an inflection point on this very decision.  

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My uneducated guess would currently be:

Order books are full for the next two to three years. All other major 'above average' yards have moved into larger size leagues and are also 'fully booked' (see X-Yachts for example: no current design smaller than 40 ft).

No need to make such a move right now, only clogs up production lines with higher production volume and lower contribution margin at the same time, the design costs not even factored in.

Plus: the 372 is a fantastic design and I bet some of the current orders are from dye-hard HR fans who are desperate to get one of the 'original' designs before production of this model closes.

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52 minutes ago, Matagi said:

My uneducated guess would currently be:

Order books are full for the next two to three years. All other major 'above average' yards have moved into larger size leagues and are also 'fully booked' (see X-Yachts for example: no current design smaller than 40 ft).

No need to make such a move right now, only clogs up production lines with higher production volume and lower contribution margin at the same time, the design costs not even factored in.

Plus: the 372 is a fantastic design and I bet some of the current orders are from dye-hard HR fans who are desperate to get one of the 'original' designs before production of this model closes.

I think you’re correct and likely where HR is at.  the 372 is fantastic and we are still giving it minimal consideration. Like you we are guessing they will hold on to it for a few more years  but IMO it is still becoming dated for the reasons mentioned up thread.   Big thumbs up to HR for keeping their products fresh and continuing to make modest sized nicely built boats that have the ability to cruise and sail well.   

To HRs credit when they Introduced the 400 they gave public notice and plenty of time for customers to order the 412 that the 400 replaced guessing they would do the same for a 372 transition.

Re X yachts which we also looked at. They are clearly going in a different direction. Limiting options eliminating model lines, fazing out their XC cruising line and moving into motor runabouts.  I can understand limiting focus (ie larger models) and consolidating product lines but they are clearly building RACER cruisers of the “me too “ variety - lots of others doing this.  
 

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1 hour ago, Epi-sailor said:

HR reps have told us two thing re a possible 370.  First, dealers in the field want one as it appears to be a frequent question.  The 372 is now 11 years old and the only model that has not been updated to their new design language.  Secondly, HR have indicated that they are not moving in this direction.  
Anyway Twolegged, thanks for the thoughts and questions we are at an inflection point on this very decision.  

Glad that helped, @Epi-sailor.    I think that @Matagi is probably right about the commercial realities of this era: they can sell plenty of bigger boats, so no need to create a new model in this size.

Leftfield suggestion: have you considered a lighter, stronger, higher-performance boat such as the JPK 38FC or the newer JPK39FC?  Less glossy than the HR boats, but extremely well-built and well-thought-out, and more fun to sail.   Kinda the next generation of cruising boat, from a yard with a stellar reputation.

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7 minutes ago, Epi-sailor said:

Re X yachts which we also looked at. They are clearly going in a different direction. Limiting options eliminating model lines, fazing out their XC cruising line and moving into motor runabouts.  I can understand limiting focus (ie larger models) and consolidating product lines but they are clearly building RACER cruisers of the “me too “ variety - lots of others doing this.  

The XC line is very heavy, which makes it more expensive to produce the new Pure-X line.   For example, the new X4-0 is about 7% lighter than the old XC38.  I guess there is limited demand for the pricier, heavier boats.

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Just now, TwoLegged said:

Glad that helped, @Epi-sailor.    I think that @Matagi is probably right about the commercial realities of this era: they can sell plenty of bigger boats, so no need to create a new model in this size.

Leftfield suggestion: have you considered a lighter, stronger, higher-performance boat such as the JPK 38FC or the newer JPK39FC?  Less glossy than the HR boats, but extremely well-built and well-thought-out, and more fun to sail.   Kinda the next generation of cruising boat, from a yard with a stellar reputation.

We have and another SA friend suggested this exact boat - Love this builder - I really appreciate more contemporary designs and boats that perform but as we have raced less and cruised more, with just 2, we appreciate more easy handling boats that also are a bit more “comfortable”.     Our challenge has been that we like lots of boats - it has taken several years to narrow our scope but appear to be getting close.  

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Just now, TwoLegged said:

Glad that helped, @Epi-sailor.    I think that @Matagi is probably right about the commercial realities of this era: they can sell plenty of bigger boats, so no need to create a new model in this size.

Leftfield suggestion: have you considered a lighter, stronger, higher-performance boat such as the JPK 38FC or the newer JPK39FC?  Less glossy than the HR boats, but extremely well-built and well-thought-out, and more fun to sail.   Kinda the next generation of cruising boat, from a yard with a stellar reputation.

I was honestly going to write the exact same thing.

In my view, the JPK 38 FC is very close to what an updated HR hull in that size would look like. The rest is vastly different, of course, more lightweight oriented and it shows: 5 tons is 2,5 tons lighther than the HR 372 (and interestingly also the Dehler 38 SQ!). Quality and resale value are something very different as well, probably.

@Epi-sailorI guess the J/112E is too 'conventional' then? And not the quality league you look for, right?

Do you intend to use it for extended cruises? For shorter trips and/or daysailing, I'd have a look at the Saffier SE 37, I think it works well in that size for short short-handed trips.

 

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8 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

The XC line is very heavy, which makes it more expensive to produce the new Pure-X line.   For example, the new X4-0 is about 7% lighter than the old XC38.  I guess there is limited demand for the pricier, heavier boats.

Re X4:0 From my perspective T bulbs on cruising boats are deal killers.  Many other reasons we dropped them from the list but loved the XC38. 

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13 minutes ago, Matagi said:

I was honestly going to write the exact same thing.

In my view, the JPK 38 FC is very close to what an updated HR hull in that size would look like. The rest is vastly different, of course, more lightweight oriented and it shows: 5 tons is 2,5 tons lighther than the HR 372 (and interestingly also the Dehler 38 SQ!). Quality and resale value are something very different as well, probably.

@Epi-sailorI guess the J/112E is too 'conventional' then? And not the quality league you look for, right?

Do you intend to use it for extended cruises? For shorter trips and/or daysailing, I'd have a look at the Saffier SE 37, I think it works well in that size for short short-handed trips.

 

I guess I’m an easy read.  We had a 109 and cruised it for long weeks weekends and ultimately wanted better quality and something we could comfortably spend longer time on.  Love the utilitarian nature of J boats and nice sailing.  Yes a bit nicer finish/build quality is key.  

The SE37 is beautiful  but more day sailor than would fit for us.  And the Dehler is new to us - interesting.  

great suggestions 
 

 

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22 minutes ago, Matagi said:

In my view, the JPK 38 FC is very close to what an updated HR hull in that size would look like. The rest is vastly different, of course, more lightweight oriented and it shows: 5 tons is 2,5 tons lighther than the HR 372 (and interestingly also the Dehler 38 SQ!). Quality and resale value are something very different as well, probably.

I disagree on the quality.  JPK boats are derived from a big offshore racing program.  Those boats are designed and built to be driven hard in very punishing conditions, and have the track record to prove that they get it right.   So on structural quality, I would put JPK way ahead of HR.

However, HR puts its money into the interior finish.  They are experts and the contemporary-apartment look, if that's what you want.  (Not my taste, but YMMV).   That creates good boatshow appeal, and will probably also appeal to many secondhand buyers.  However, the market is full of used HRs, whereas those seeking a sailor's boat such as the JPK have much less to choose from, so I wouldn't bet against its resale value.  You'd just need to be a bit more patient until you find the buyer who appreciates the values of the JPK.

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6 minutes ago, Epi-sailor said:

The SE37 is beautiful  but more day sailor than would fit for us.  And the Dehler is new to us - interesting.  

Dehlers used to be v well built.  However, they are now owned by Hanse, which doesn't have the same reputation for structural quality.

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8 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

I disagree on the quality.  JPK boats are derived from a big offshore racing program.  Those boats are designed and built to be driven hard in very punishing conditions, and have the track record to prove that they get it right.   So on structural quality, I would put JPK way ahead of HR.

However, HR puts its money into the interior finish.  They are experts and the contemporary-apartment look, if that's what you want.  (Not my taste, but YMMV).   That creates good boatshow appeal, and will probably also appeal to many secondhand buyers.  However, the market is full of used HRs, whereas those seeking a sailor's boat such as the JPK have much less to choose from, so I wouldn't bet against its resale value.  You'd just need to be a bit more patient until you find the buyer who appreciates the values of the JPK.

That's my experience, too. I was on the 38 once, and I did not like the interior finish too well. But it is part of the concept: no inner shell, no superfluous spatula. All very functional. Some will like that, many others won't.

Structurally, I haven't seen the grid of the JPK? Is it steel? Molded in or just glued on?

Hallberg Rassy is using a solid stub that is part of the hull to attach the keel fin to it,

I think that is still one of the best keel structures out there, far better than relying on a structural grid that the keel can always push back into the boat, if it has a bad day.

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8 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

I disagree on the quality.  JPK boats are derived from a big offshore racing program.  Those boats are designed and built to be driven hard in very punishing conditions, and have the track record to prove that they get it right.   So on structural quality, I would put JPK way ahead of HR.

However, HR puts its money into the interior finish.  They are experts and the contemporary-apartment look, if that's what you want.  (Not my taste, but YMMV).   That creates good boatshow appeal, and will probably also appeal to many secondhand buyers.  However, the market is full of used HRs, whereas those seeking a sailor's boat such as the JPK have much less to choose from, so I wouldn't bet against its resale value.  You'd just need to be a bit more patient until you find the buyer who appreciates the values of the JPK.

I appreciate and agree with almost all your thoughts.  But we sailed the new HR 340 and it sailed GREAT even with the apartment finishes.   We have sailed many boats in this size range over many years and as sailing quality goes I was shocked how good it was and was the primary reason it and the 400 are near the top of our list.  HULL technology and build quality is no doubt old school and low tech but good and far better than the Js we have previously owned.  

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3 hours ago, Epi-sailor said:

I appreciate and agree with almost all your thoughts.  But we sailed the new HR 340 and it sailed GREAT even with the apartment finishes.   We have sailed many boats in this size range over many years and as sailing quality goes I was shocked how good it was and was the primary reason it and the 400 are near the top of our list.  HULL technology and build quality is no doubt old school and low tech but good and far better than the Js we have previously owned.  

We probably have slightly different approaches here.  I don't much like the v polished interior of HRs, and regardless of that I'd always put the structure first.  YMMV, and this is your boat with your money. :) 

One issue that I would want to check is the rudders.  I think the advantages of the twin rudders make them a desirable feature, but I accept that the naysayers have a point about their increased vulnerability, even tho I reckon they exaggerate it.

The Pogos are built with the rudder shafts behind a full-height bulkhead, so you could rip out a rudder leaving a gash in the hull, with no risk of the boat sinking like happened to the Irish Hanse 371 Megawatt when her rudder shaft broke messily and left a hole in the hull.  Given their offshore racing pedigree, I assume that the JPKs have a similar feature, but I haven't checked.

However, the HR interior layouts all seem to try use the full length of the hull for accommodation, which seems to rule out a similar bulkhead.   I'd want to check very carefully what they do to ensure that a catastrophic failure of the rudder cannot sink the boat.

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1 hour ago, bstrdsonofbtl said:
7 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

JPK39FC?  

Did they steal the drawings from now defunct RM yachts?

Haha -- I see the similarities.

But RM is refunct: see https://www.rm-yachts.com/.   Sadly, their customers got f*cked in the refuncting process: http://interestingsailboats.blogspot.com/2020/03/rm-yachts-bankruptcy-and-shameful.html

 

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for reference, the RM 1180 from a similar angle:

 

1180.jpg

Well, it's an interesting design, and I think it works well on the RM with these attention-screaming colours. The whole design says 'hey, I'm something different, so deal with it'. On the JPK, ... nah.

But coming back to the original topic, I'm curious if we will ever see a new, small HR. The HR 29 is in my view still the perfect long-baltic-couple-summerjourney boat for two (disregard the 70ies style toilet...), closely followed by the 310. I wonder if we will see the design trickle down to below 34 feet, given my thoughts above I think it's not too likely to see something like this in the future:

hr_311.jpg.c67237a985729b7bc993178879c59ef0.jpg

 

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On 10/30/2021 at 6:31 PM, TwoLegged said:

Dehlers used to be v well built.  However, they are now owned by Hanse, which doesn't have the same reputation for structural quality.

Hanse bought them with the goal to keep the Dehler reputation for Dehlers, it is not that hard. It is more and better materials, more hours spend on building and a separate quality manager.
If that was not the case, they would not have bought it. Owner has a bit of cash now the investment from lost a ton of money and he bought it back for peanuts.

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13 hours ago, Matagi said:

for reference, the RM 1180 from a similar angle:

 

1180.jpg

Well, it's an interesting design, and I think it works well on the RM with these attention-screaming colours. The whole design says 'hey, I'm something different, so deal with it'. On the JPK, ... nah.

But coming back to the original topic, I'm curious if we will ever see a new, small HR. The HR 29 is in my view still the perfect long-baltic-couple-summerjourney boat for two (disregard the 70ies style toilet...), closely followed by the 310. I wonder if we will see the design trickle down to below 34 feet, given my thoughts above I think it's not too likely to see something like this in the future:

hr_311.jpg.c67237a985729b7bc993178879c59ef0.jpg

 

 

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1 hour ago, LeoV said:

Hanse bought them with the goal to keep the Dehler reputation for Dehlers, it is not that hard. It is more and better materials, more hours spend on building and a separate quality manager.
If that was not the case, they would not have bought it. Owner has a bit of cash now the investment from lost a ton of money and he bought it back for peanuts.

Both DeWalt (sturdy, reliable contractor tools) and PorterCable (serious amateur and small pro shop woodworking tools) are owned by Black and Decker (shite-grade homeowner's tools). They build to their users' budgets & expectations.

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58 minutes ago, Diarmuid said:
2 hours ago, LeoV said:

Hanse bought them with the goal to keep the Dehler reputation for Dehlers, it is not that hard. It is more and better materials, more hours spend on building and a separate quality manager.
If that was not the case, they would not have bought it. Owner has a bit of cash now the investment from lost a ton of money and he bought it back for peanuts.

Both DeWalt (sturdy, reliable contractor tools) and PorterCable (serious amateur and small pro shop woodworking tools) are owned by Black and Decker (shite-grade homeowner's tools). They build to their users' budgets & expectations.

Hmm.  There are of course plenty of examples where a high-end brand has been maintained by a new owner.  But there are also plenty of cases where a new owner has traded off the previous reputation while quality plummets.  Try Rover cars, Bush audio equipment, Ford's abuse of the Ghia brand, or Moody yachts decline from high-end semi-custom building to mediocre high-volume cruisers.

So I'd want to see some solid evidence that Hanse hasn't cheapened the Dehler production.

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23 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Hmm.  There are of course plenty of examples where a high-end brand has been maintained by a new owner.  But there are also plenty of cases where a new owner has traded off the previous reputation while quality plummets.  Try Rover cars, Bush audio equipment, Ford's abuse of the Ghia brand, or Moody yachts decline from high-end semi-custom building to mediocre high-volume cruisers.

So I'd want to see some solid evidence that Hanse hasn't cheapened the Dehler production.

If you have a look at the time and hours they spent on the 30 OD, plus Kalle Dehler's involvement, I'd say having a visibly different, more upmarket brand proposition is important to them.

Notably, the Hanse 460 also marks a change in design offices for Hanse, which will deepen the divide further.

My guess is, most of the economies here are found in common procurement of parts, not in a joint assembly line.

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