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Watching the video on the 2019 Twelve Meter regatta in Newport I realized I FAR preferred watching those than the techno freaks currently racing in NZ.

Let the hating begin...

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9 minutes ago, dave-j said:

Watching the video on the 2019 Twelve Meter regatta in Newport I realized I FAR preferred watching those than the techno freaks currently racing in NZ.

Let the hating begin...

You're not wrong....the 87 Cup was the best AC regatta ever. Next would be any of the IACC events. 

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I totally agree. Watching the AC75s was engaging at first when they were new, but not anymore. Now I'm sick to death of them. No exciting spinnaker hoist and drops, no  big waves and high winds...the racing was much closer in the keelboats as well.

So far in all the AC75 series its been one boat dominating the series. In the RR in was INEOS, semi finals LR, and finals LR.

ajaxnetphoto-1st-feb-1987-fremantle-western-australia-americas-cup-F485BM.thumb.jpg.eb2c9da87b9d814268e0fb29bce3c08a.jpgFreo87-017.jpg.378c178326b96a4d8a001e83b68b20d9.jpg5.png.d312224deb2146f549efa94afedc81cf.pngACStartBig.jpg.b759472300407dd300f6ae80aeefb443.jpg

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1 hour ago, dave-j said:

Watching the video on the 2019 Twelve Meter regatta in Newport I realized I FAR preferred watching those than the techno freaks currently racing in NZ.

Me too.

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57 minutes ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

Now I'm sick to death of them. No exciting spinnaker hoist and drops, no  big waves and high winds...

I have a friend who watched one of the Prada Cup races and then provided an amusing analog.

"Remember when slot-car racing was a thing?" (yes, we're that old) "it was fun to watch, for a second, but after a while you're just watching these things go around the track, with nothing really happening, and it's only really exciting when one of them launches off the track and hits the wall.  That's what this reminded me of"

He's not wrong. 

Plus as an ex bow-guy, racing without sets and gibes and peels and takedowns seems... hollow.

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Having sailed on them for a number of years and dealt with the back of the boat from the front of the boat sure makes me appreciate them.

 

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I’ll be honest, I was in this regatta and I’ve been in Jobson videos before and  compared to how intense the event was and how descriptive Gary can be....watching this video was as boring as boring gets. Disappointing. It was the largest 12 fleet to ever sail in the US and the best the boats have ever been and all we got here was 20 minutes of dock talk. The final cut seemed to just be a way of getting as many old rich guys doing talking heads on camera as possible without showing any more than 3 seconds of the boats sailing at a time. 

 

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Funny.  I was a junior sailor back in 86/87, and I remember watching cup footage as I could at the time, and of course I saw a the replays back then. I had always had a rosy notion of this being the best series ever.  After the SF finals, which ended up being pretty awesome IMO, I rewatched the 86 semis between Dickson and Conner.... wow I have to say that it was painful to watch.  Watching tacking duels was beyond painful...    

All of the blowhard “this isn’t match racing” commentary I think is bs regarding cups since SF.  What I do find annoying, and what was alluded to above with the slot car racing analogy is that the narrow courses basically lock down the race after the start.  I wish the course was wide open, then I think it would be more interesting. 

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1 hour ago, sledracr said:

 

"Remember when slot-car racing was a thing?" (yes, we're that old) "it was fun to watch, for a second, but after a while you're just watching these things go around the track, with nothing really happening, and it's only really exciting when one of them launches off the track and hits the wall.  That's what this reminded me of"

Come on I use to do 24 hours races, nothing like rewinding motors in the middle of the night.

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Watching displacement boats race on video is like watching paint dry.

The only sail racing vid that ever caught my fancy was the Ozzie 18's.

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

Watching displacement boats race on video is like watching paint dry.

The only sail racing vid that ever caught my fancy was the Ozzie 18's.

But they have exciting action. The crews are visibly DOING something... shit just the tacks are exciting. The boats are passing each other, or at least maneuvering relative to each trying to pass or block.

With the Twelves, the action was more slow motion and there was far less passing. But the mark roundings were at least interesting and the boats themselves were beautiful to watch.

I enjoy watching some of the new foilers racing, but the fact that they are FAST does not make it exciting. The spectator has know way of knowing that the naviguesser is adjusting his vernier for 0.003kt better VMG or whatever. You can't even tell if there are people aboard, or if the boat is sailed by remote control.... or by robots.

FB- Doug

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It's curious. I drive a car, I can identify with F1 even though my car is just a little shit-box.

I sail both high-perf dinghies and keelboats, but not a moth or other flying contraption.  Yes, it's certain sailing, and I sorta can identify with it, but not really.  Certainly I could more clearly understand it if I sailed foilers, but I don't. With kids entering college, and me entering retirement in 5 years, probably won't ever happen. 

I watched a few of the races, but the only thing that was of interest was the start, first cross, and first bearaway. Other than that, didn't hold my attention. 

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I’m with the old timers here. The build up was cool, but the racing sucks. This is not a complaint against the Kiwis. By all means, blame Larry if it helps you sleep at night. I despise Prada, but hope they win and go back to fast, but normal sailboats. 

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6 hours ago, dave-j said:

Watching the video on the 2019 Twelve Meter regatta in Newport I realized I FAR preferred watching those than the techno freaks currently racing in NZ.

Let the hating begin...

If you like watching 12s, watch em. If you don't like watching AC75s, don't watch em. It's that easy.

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I remember seeing Blackaller's training boat US49 at the dock in '86 when I was a kid. beautiful boat, I was struck by it's brutal purposefulness. they ain't 'fast', but they're bad ass.

 

scan0095-opt.jpeg

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Amused by the number of references to sailing 12s as fun.

My memories of racing in Freo with 11 crew and 25 knots of Doctor,  include emotions like frightening,  AWSOME,  bloody hard work,  exciting,  amazing,  but I don't remember fun as being high on the list!  Mind you I wasn't in the back cockpit.

I can see that with 15 crew and light breeze they could be quite fun particularly if you are down the back.

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36 minutes ago, TUBBY said:

Amused by the number of references to sailing 12s as fun.

My memories of racing in Freo with 11 crew and 25 knots of Doctor,  include emotions like frightening,  AWSOME,  bloody hard work,  exciting,  amazing,  but I don't remember fun as being high on the list!  Mind you I wasn't in the back cockpit.

I can see that with 15 crew and light breeze they could be quite fun particularly if you are down the back.

It's always more fun in the back. I enjoyed the 12's. But if we are going retro let's do it in J Class - I have never even been on one but have watched up close and if you want to talk about crew work, those are freaking awesome.  Meanwhile, foiling is the future in some form or another. Locally King Olaf used to come and race 6m, those are beautiful and cool as well. When it was an entitled gentleman's sport. Rabble like me were not to take part. The only fun moment in the front is when the gybe in big breeze goes perfectly and you take that little bow before running back to the rail. good times.

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Watching the 75s live is totally awesome, but agree it is more fun when the racing is close. We then get to go home and watch the rerun on double speed. Still awesome. But I'm too out of touch to ever hope to sail on one.

I remeber watching 95. I'd watch the start and the first couple of tacks. Black Magic was then well in front so I'd settle back into work. I'd lift my head for the mark roundings but in reality not a lot was going on. People only remember the romance, not the actuality. And if we know someone us weekend worriers can generally still get out on a 12,  or even possibly a J.

 

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Theres plenty of action to watch on the 75's - but you have to understand and appreciate foilers - maybe even have sailed a foiler.  No one on these teams is sitting around waiting as was the case so often on the lead mines.  Not surprising that this action is harder to understand for most watchers, further splintering the small sailing audience.

But there is a reason that the best young sailors in the world want to be foiling. It aint cause its boring.................

PS: We have a new class and a cycle where racing has been radically reduced due to a pandemic - given these circumstance, the racing has been much closer that knowledgeable watchers had a right to expect.

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One good thing of the present boats is that looking at the foil arms you can figure out in what tack they are in, something that was not possible with foiling catamarans with wing sails.

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They both have their good points. You will never see a 12m hit 30 knots but neither will you see an AC75 hit 43 tacks on a final leg (Liberty Vs Australia 2; Race 7).

Unless in marginal foiling conditions or a shifty breeze (unlikely in Level 2 Lockdown) lead changes in AC75 are rarer than hen's teeth but the technology is fascinating.

Got my red socks ready - 3 days to go.

SS 

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22 hours ago, Monkey said:

I’m with the old timers here. The build up was cool, but the racing sucks. This is not a complaint against the Kiwis. By all means, blame Larry if it helps you sleep at night. I despise Prada, but hope they win and go back to fast, but normal sailboats. 

+1

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I'm doing some testing that reminds me of the AC, but we are 'match racing' two optical signals. Both pulses start at the same speed and point in time, some 75% of the speed of light, where a laser (start line) is shooting down two fibre optic cores (course tracks) to a optical receiver (finish line). One core (track) is made longer than the other with ever increasing lengths.

I can slow down a pulse (get off the foils) by laying up a core with too tight a bend (tack/gybe) or by passing the pulse through a polarisation scrambler (light air patch).

The results showed as speed increases, the disparity in length of the two paths (track) becomes of little relevance and a much greater impact is from a lowering of the speed from  tightening of a bend or from a polarisation scrambler.

If I compared it to the AC I see some parallels:

-it is engineering porn and I could spend hours just exploring the tech;

-it's fucking fast;

-the distance travelled is nowhere near relevant as compared to keeping the pulse in the groove; and 

-the high speed doesn't change the fact it's as boring as fuck to watch after the first time.

 

   

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The twelves are magnificent boats, a beauty to watch in motion and at dock. But would I spend 3 hours in front of a screen watching them do a single race? Well perhaps I am that crazy, but not many people are.

Thing is with these boats, they have a life outside competition - many have been cruised with smaller rigs etc. This means that they are kept alive so the class is still vibrant after 124 years

And they're the closest I'll ever come to the America's Cup, having sailed a race on Magic US-38 back in 2015. My only complaint on that was that what normally would have been a 90 min race on my folkboat was over in just 25 minutes on that 12!

If the AC75s ever want to come even close to that kind of legacy, they need to get their act together and organize some form of activity outside of the AC itself.

Otherwise, the AC will re-re-re-invent the wheel again with some off the wall new concept that will cost 100's of millions to develop, further minimizing participation in the AC and consigning the AC75 to the carbon dust waste dump of history with the AC72 and AC50

 

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14 hours ago, shaggybaxter said:

I'm doing some testing that reminds me of the AC, but we are 'match racing' two optical signals. Both pulses start at the same speed and point in time, some 75% of the speed of light, where a laser (start line) is shooting down two fibre optic cores (course tracks) to a optical receiver (finish line). One core (track) is made longer than the other with ever increasing lengths.

I can slow down a pulse (get off the foils) by laying up a core with too tight a bend (tack/gybe) or by passing the pulse through a polarisation scrambler (light air patch).

The results showed as speed increases, the disparity in length of the two paths (track) becomes of little relevance and a much greater impact is from a lowering of the speed from  tightening of a bend or from a polarisation scrambler.

If I compared it to the AC I see some parallels:

-it is engineering porn and I could spend hours just exploring the tech;

-it's fucking fast;

-the distance travelled is nowhere near relevant as compared to keeping the pulse in the groove; and 

-the high speed doesn't change the fact it's as boring as fuck to watch after the first time.

 

   

Sounds like Michelson-Morley 2021.

- DSK

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7 hours ago, alphafb552 said:

Otherwise, the AC will re-re-re-invent the wheel again with some off the wall new concept that will cost 100's of millions to develop, further minimizing participation in the AC and consigning the AC75 to the carbon dust waste dump of history with the AC72 and AC50

 

I would not be too surprised if one of theses days the various clubs/organizations looked at the costs, said no thanks and no one challenged

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I'd like to see a return to J boats as there would be numerous super yacht types that would pony up for a new take on such a classic with a post race life.  RULE NUMBER ONE WOULD BE: RACE IN A VENUE THAT HAS BREEZE AND WAVES!

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On 3/6/2021 at 5:14 AM, TUBBY said:

I don't remember fun as being high on the list!  Mind you I wasn't in the back cockpit.

I can see that with 15 crew and light breeze they could be quite fun particularly if you are down the back.

All the fun in old boats was in front of the mast!!!

20 hours ago, cbulger said:

you have to understand and appreciate foilers - maybe even have sailed a foiler.  

Seriously!? We don't get it because we've never foiled? You must love those super exciting 10 minute straight line speed run vids then...

19 hours ago, McGyver said:

One good thing of the present boats is that looking at the foil arms you can figure out in what tack they are in, something that was not possible with foiling catamarans with wing sails.

WTF????? 

 

At least they don't have self tacking jibs.... 

I'm thankful for the highlight reel that breaks down 2 races into 20 minutes!

The boundary is just stupid - sailing will never fit in a stadium!

Foiling or pushing water out of the way, either way sailing is boring to watch!!!  Foiling sailboats with 0 sail handling that require only 2 or 3 knowledgeable sailors onboard are even more boring to watch.

The 52 Super Series highlight reels are way more interesting than these flying thingies!

 

 

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On 3/7/2021 at 11:12 AM, Liquid said:

 

All the fun in old boats was in front of the mast!!!

Seriously!? We don't get it because we've never foiled? You must love those super exciting 10 minute straight line speed run vids then...

WTF????? 

 

At least they don't have self tacking jibs.... 

I'm thankful for the highlight reel that breaks down 2 races into 20 minutes!

The boundary is just stupid - sailing will never fit in a stadium!

Foiling or pushing water out of the way, either way sailing is boring to watch!!!  Foiling sailboats with 0 sail handling that require only 2 or 3 knowledgeable sailors onboard are even more boring to watch.

The 52 Super Series highlight reels are way more interesting than these flying thingies!

 

 

I've listened 2 dozen interviews with top ranked high-performance sailors young and old - and 100% find the AC 75 racing riveting - every one of them.  I've also heard many old sailors with little or no high-performance experience interviewed, and the majority prefer the good old days.

Twas ever thus........

I get it - I had 1967 GTO in high school and still miss it.

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12 minutes ago, cbulger said:

I've listened 2 dozen interviews with top ranked high-performance sailors young and old - and 100% find the AC 75 racing riveting - every one of them.  I've also heard many old sailors with little or no high-performance experience interviewed, and the majority prefer the good old days.

Twas ever thus........

I get it - I had 1967 GTO in high school and still miss it.

Which begs the question as to which is more important and what the goal should be: to attract new interest and public enthusiasm or to satisfy the high performance sailors?

I think that in the end public enthusiasm benefits the sailing community as a whole more. Plus I'm not certain if those high performance sailors interviewed were asked if they felt that the current operations of the America's Cup are generally more preferable, all things considered.

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Good discussions, but just to clarify, I didn't start this to be a "which is better/right/more valid" etc. debate.  Was just commenting that I found the twelves video (as poorly done as it was) to be much more fun to watch than the current AC.  Sounds like others share my view, and some don't.  No worries.  And no, I've never foiled, and yes I've had the opportunity to race on both a twelve and a J boat. 

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if you want to watch classic boats then to go watch a classics race. thats just not what the AC is about, the AC has always been about pushing the technological forefront which now is wings sails and foils. 

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When the twelves started being used, they were cutting edge, now they are just beautiful old racing boats.

I find the foilers exciting to watch, the guy behind the wheel has to take decisions within split seconds, in a way it is more like formula one racing. When one boat is faster, it is boring but that is true of any racing and happened a lot during the twelves era.

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There are two big problems with the new class.

One is that they are so fast that even a small delta (say 15 seconds) is hundreds of yards so the boats are never close to each other (except for 5 or 10 seconds at the start) which makes for very boring spectating. 

The other is that with the wind so far forward on the downwind legs there is never any opportunity for the boat behind to gas the boat in front.

These things might be good for something or other, but they are not good for match racing.

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