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What the hell was Sinema doing giving a theatrical thumbs down on the relief bill? What happened to being a team player, but taking a stand against supporting the non-billionaire class?

I can see Manchin playing his role because it gives him a lot of power in a 50/50 Senate, but Sinema frankly surprised me.

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President Biden has got to feel a bit betrayed as both Senators from Delaware voted against the $15 minimum wage.  
Given the history of gender and wage discrimination against women I’m surprised that 3 of the 8 are women.

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The $15 min wage shouldn’t have been in the Covid relief package in the first place. I believe they support it but as a stand alone bill. 

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8 minutes ago, dacapo said:

The $15 min wage shouldn’t have been in the Covid relief package in the first place. I believe they support it but as a stand alone bill. 

No. They wanted it out of the covid bill because they didn't want to kill the covid bill, because they fully intend to oppose the minimum wage bill.

Members of congress (Both house and Senate) make approximately $59.50 per hour, based on a full 365 day work year, and a full 8 hour work day..... PLUS they get free health care for life.

We all know that no congressman or senator works 365/8.

 And yet these assholes are denying working people $15 per hour?

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2 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:

No. They wanted it out of the covid bill because they didn't want to kill the covid bill, because they fully intend to oppose the minimum wage bill.

Members of congress (Both house and Senate) make approximately $59.50 per hour, based on a full 365 day work year, and a full 8 hour work day..... PLUS they get free health care for life.

We all know that no congressman or senator works 365/8.

 And yet these assholes are denying working people $15 per hour?

I agree they didn’t want to kill the Covid bill. 

nearly 1/2 the States already have min wage laws well above $7.25/hr. Most of the States that do not are Red States. I think/believe/hope that there is enough support to have a federal min wage of $15 by the end of 2021. 

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1 hour ago, jerseyguy said:

President Biden has got to feel a bit betrayed as both Senators from Delaware voted against the $15 minimum wage.  
Given the history of gender and wage discrimination against women I’m surprised that 3 of the 8 are women.

Being rich trumps gender.

I'd like to know what they were worth before they got elected.

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2 hours ago, Mrleft8 said:

No. They wanted it out of the covid bill because they didn't want to kill the covid bill, because they fully intend to oppose the minimum wage bill.

Members of congress (Both house and Senate) make approximately $59.50 per hour, based on a full 365 day work year, and a full 8 hour work day..... PLUS they get free health care for life.

We all know that no congressman or senator works 365/8.

 And yet these assholes are denying working people $15 per hour?

Nope.

Snopes on the rumor of Free Health Care for Congresscritters (including after leaving office).

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On 3/6/2021 at 12:34 PM, dacapo said:

The $15 min wage shouldn’t have been in the Covid relief package in the first place. I believe they support it but as a stand alone bill. 

This^^

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On 3/6/2021 at 12:11 PM, jerseyguy said:

President Biden has got to feel a bit betrayed as both Senators from Delaware voted against the $15 minimum wage.  
Given the history of gender and wage discrimination against women I’m surprised that 3 of the 8 are women.

Why should women be different?  Power is power.

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2 hours ago, woodtick said:

Even Henry Ford realised he could not sell his cars only to the rich. Without a middle class your economy will colapse. 

From what I have read, the claim that he paid his workers enough to afford his cars is a myth.  He paid his workers more because too many were quitting the shitty monotonous jobs that assembly line work had created. 

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(Double post alert - but it fits better here . . ) 

And now the big boys of the GOPPER Reich are 

proclaiming loudly that theirs is the party of working class Americans . . 

but . . . but . . . Where are they on the fight for the $ 15 minimum wage ?? 

Completely and totally MIA is where 

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/03/republicans-are-trying-to-rebrand-themselves-as-working-class-heroes

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52 minutes ago, benwynn said:

That's 7 Democrats.

So much for the vaunted Democrat numeracy supremacy. I counted four Democrats, two Communists, five Sierra Club members, three LGBTQs and a side of onion rings.

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I support a $15.00 minimum wage. It would be a long term boost to the economy.

Who cares if we have to pay an extra few bucks for a Big Mac, or two dollars for a head of lettuce, instead of one?

I truly hope the Democrats get this done ASAP.

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6 hours ago, benwynn said:

That's 7 Democrats.

It’s actually six. King is indy but caucuses with the unAmericans. They left out Sen. Sinema, or is it “Cinema” after her performance as John McCain? She didn’t make the top of the money charts, with open secrets showing her with about 70k as of her last report they have on file. 

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7 hours ago, benwynn said:

From what I have read, the claim that he paid his workers enough to afford his cars is a myth.  He paid his workers more because too many were quitting the shitty monotonous jobs that assembly line work had created. 

And not everyone got the wage they were promised.  He was anti-labor, anti-union, and used a period of horrible economic poverty to enrich himself.

The perfect republican.  He even switched over to arms manaufacturing.

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1 hour ago, Greever said:

I support a $15.00 minimum wage. It would be a long term boost to the economy.

Who cares if we have to pay an extra few bucks for a Big Mac, or two dollars for a head of lettuce, instead of one?

I truly hope the Democrats get this done ASAP.

But wouldn't $30/hr be twice as good?

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36 minutes ago, Pedagogical Tom said:

But wouldn't $30/hr be twice as good?

A pretty strong argument can and has been made for a universal income, but don’t worry. America will continue to do the wrong thing here.

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8 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

(Double post alert - but it fits better here . . ) 

And now the big boys of the GOPPER Reich are 

proclaiming loudly that theirs is the party of working class Americans . . 

but . . . but . . . Where are they on the fight for the $ 15 minimum wage ?? 

Completely and totally MIA is where 

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/03/republicans-are-trying-to-rebrand-themselves-as-working-class-heroes

Their "working class" base is already making $15+/hr. No interest in the current minimum wage crowd. 

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1 hour ago, Sean said:

Their "working class" base is already making $15+/hr. No interest in the current minimum wage crowd. 

Not true - a certain young fella to whom I am related now makes $ 18 in auto parts manufacture. 

He, and all those millions making NEAR the min wage would get a boost. A raise for  . .

 32 million workers across the U.S. according to analysis from the left-leaning Economic Policy Institute and the National Employment Law Project.

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How much is $15/hr

Based on a 40 hour week, which most hourly wage earners don't get any more because it would entail "full time" benefits:

$650 week

$2600/mo

$31,200/yr

Not a huge amount of money, especially if trying to juggle 2 or 3 part-time jobs, keep an old vehicle running, dependents in school, etc etc.

Last time I looked, average income in the USA was around $55,000/yr. In some places that's not a bad living. In many metro areas, it's poverty wages.

I am not in favor of the gov't interfering in markets but the labor market is hugely biased in favor of employers. It would be better IMHO not necessarily to mandate a certain wage but to ensure access to benefits like health care & education. Also to ensure that employers neither prey on their employees, or expose them to hazards without appropriate training & equipment, etc etc.

- DSK

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1 hour ago, AJ Oliver said:

Not true - a certain young fella to whom I am related now makes $ 18 in auto parts manufacture. 

He, and all those millions making NEAR the min wage would get a boost. A raise for  . .

 32 million workers across the U.S. according to analysis from the left-leaning Economic Policy Institute and the National Employment Law Project.

 

Republicans certainly don't want to increase low wage voter turnout. Increasing minimum wage boosts low wage voter turnout. Low wage workers tend to vote D. 

Interesting study here -

https://arwhite.mit.edu/sites/default/files/images/MinWage_draft1forweb.pdf

 

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On 3/6/2021 at 2:34 PM, dacapo said:

The $15 min wage shouldn’t have been in the Covid relief package in the first place. I believe they support it but as a stand alone bill. 

Exactly!  I hate all politicians that try to cram their wish lists into other legislation. 

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Inflation has continued apace since the $ 15 min wage was first proposed around 2010 

It should now be a "Fight for $18" 

A min wage of $7.25 is flat out evil. 

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You could look to Australia for how a high minimum wage works. Currently $19.84/hr AUD federal min. wage.  Bit lower if you're young

But somehow Big Macs are still relatively affordable. How can the mega corporations still make a profit?

Some things that have a high labour component are costly (berries come to mind because all hand picked)

Restaurant meals are a bit more pricey but not outrageous. It helps that you don't have to put down an extra 20% tip as a consumer.

Any Ozzies want to chime in on how wages work at the low end of the spectrum?

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12 hours ago, Greever said:

I support a $15.00 minimum wage. It would be a long term boost to the economy.

Who cares if we have to pay an extra few bucks for a Big Mac, or two dollars for a head of lettuce, instead of one?

I truly hope the Democrats get this done ASAP.

I'm somewhat ambivalent about the $15/hr craze.  I think the issue is that the proponents of this are trying to mix the terms of Min wage and "living wage".  The minimum wage was NEVER intended to be a living wage to support a family of 4 or more.  Yet that is how the $15/hr Min wage is being couched now.  It was intended for base entry level jobs for single folks just out of HS and HS teens working summer jobs flipping burgers.  I don't mind raising it to  correspond to current inflation and pricing for those same single entry level folks.  But don't conflate it with trying to support everyone with families.  If you want to support and subsidize those families, then do something targeted to them.  I don't think a 16 yr old girl handing out ice cream cones at DQ as a summer or part time job merits $15 an hour. 

And what happens to the several million who will be out of a job completely when employers reduce staff and/or accelerate automation due to unaffordable costs to pay their employees almost double what they might be getting now??  

I just think this clamor to force employers to pay higher wages is going to have several orders of knockon effects that no one is anticipating.  If we are trying to solve the "living wage" issues - I'd almost prefer we go down the UBI path rather than trying to address it with artificially high wages.  

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9 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

I'm somewhat ambivalent about the $15/hr craze.  I think the issue is that the proponents of this are trying to mix the terms of Min wage and "living wage".  The minimum wage was NEVER intended to be a living wage to support a family of 4 or more.  Yet that is how the $15/hr Min wage is being couched now.  It was intended for base entry level jobs for single folks just out of HS and HS teens working summer jobs flipping burgers.  I don't mind raising it to  correspond to current inflation and pricing for those same single entry level folks.  But don't conflate it with trying to support everyone with families.  If you want to support and subsidize those families, then do something targeted to them.  I don't think a 16 yr old girl handing out ice cream cones at DQ as a summer or part time job merits $15 an hour. 

And what happens to the several million who will be out of a job completely when employers reduce staff and/or accelerate automation due to unaffordable costs to pay their employees almost double what they might be getting now??  

I just think this clamor to force employers to pay higher wages is going to have several orders of knockon effects that no one is anticipating.  If we are trying to solve the "living wage" issues - I'd almost prefer we go down the UBI path rather than trying to address it with artificially high wages.  

You sure about that?  FDR made clear how he felt about the intent of establishing a minimum wage (emphasis mine) -

"In my Inaugural I laid down the simple proposition that nobody is going to starve in this country. It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country."

Linky

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13 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

I'm somewhat ambivalent about the $15/hr craze.  I think the issue is that the proponents of this are trying to mix the terms of Min wage and "living wage".  The minimum wage was NEVER intended to be a living wage to support a family of 4 or more.  Yet that is how the $15/hr Min wage is being couched now.  It was intended for base entry level jobs for single folks just out of HS and HS teens working summer jobs flipping burgers.  I don't mind raising it to  correspond to current inflation and pricing for those same single entry level folks.  But don't conflate it with trying to support everyone with families.  If you want to support and subsidize those families, then do something targeted to them.  I don't think a 16 yr old girl handing out ice cream cones at DQ as a summer or part time job merits $15 an hour. 

And what happens to the several million who will be out of a job completely when employers reduce staff and/or accelerate automation due to unaffordable costs to pay their employees almost double what they might be getting now??  

I just think this clamor to force employers to pay higher wages is going to have several orders of knockon effects that no one is anticipating.  If we are trying to solve the "living wage" issues - I'd almost prefer we go down the UBI path rather than trying to address it with artificially high wages.  

We have a "young entry level" minimum wage, and a higher one for the rest.

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19 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

I'm somewhat ambivalent about the $15/hr craze.  I think the issue is that the proponents of this are trying to mix the terms of Min wage and "living wage".  The minimum wage was NEVER intended to be a living wage to support a family of 4 or more.  Yet that is how the $15/hr Min wage is being couched now.  It was intended for base entry level jobs for single folks just out of HS and HS teens working summer jobs flipping burgers.  I don't mind raising it to  correspond to current inflation and pricing for those same single entry level folks.  But don't conflate it with trying to support everyone with families.  If you want to support and subsidize those families, then do something targeted to them.  I don't think a 16 yr old girl handing out ice cream cones at DQ as a summer or part time job merits $15 an hour. 

And what happens to the several million who will be out of a job completely when employers reduce staff and/or accelerate automation due to unaffordable costs to pay their employees almost double what they might be getting now??  

I just think this clamor to force employers to pay higher wages is going to have several orders of knockon effects that no one is anticipating.  If we are trying to solve the "living wage" issues - I'd almost prefer we go down the UBI path rather than trying to address it with artificially high wages.  

How do you feel about many employers colluding with each other to push wages down? Or using gov't agencies to push people into accepting low wages?

FWIW I don't like the gov't interfering in fair markets. But the labor market is pushed hard to produce desperate people who will work for starvation wages.

- DSK

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1 hour ago, Burning Man said:

I'm somewhat ambivalent about the $15/hr craze.  I think the issue is that the proponents of this are trying to mix the terms of Min wage and "living wage".  The minimum wage was NEVER intended to be a living wage to support a family of 4 or more.  Yet that is how the $15/hr Min wage is being couched now.  It was intended for base entry level jobs for single folks just out of HS and HS teens working summer jobs flipping burgers.  I don't mind raising it to  correspond to current inflation and pricing for those same single entry level folks.  But don't conflate it with trying to support everyone with families.  If you want to support and subsidize those families, then do something targeted to them.  I don't think a 16 yr old girl handing out ice cream cones at DQ as a summer or part time job merits $15 an hour. 

And what happens to the several million who will be out of a job completely when employers reduce staff and/or accelerate automation due to unaffordable costs to pay their employees almost double what they might be getting now??  

I just think this clamor to force employers to pay higher wages is going to have several orders of knockon effects that no one is anticipating.  If we are trying to solve the "living wage" issues - I'd almost prefer we go down the UBI path rather than trying to address it with artificially high wages.  

Do you believe it would be a long term boost for our economy?

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20 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:
21 hours ago, Pedagogical Tom said:

But wouldn't $30/hr be twice as good?

That depends. It might be as much as four times better.

- DSK

Now that you mention it, wouldn't a $60/hr minimum wage be even better than $30? Just think of all the prosperity we could mandate!

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2 hours ago, Shambolic Tom said:

Good point. Gasoline was actually more expensive in 2010, not the same price, so maybe the minimum wage should go down?

Wouldn't it be better if the gas stations just gave gasoline to everybody for free?

The price is going down, obviously it will be free some day. Just shorten the process a little

- DSK

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5 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Wouldn't it be better if the gas stations just gave gasoline to everybody for free?

The price is going down, obviously it will be free some day. Just shorten the process a little

- DSK

That would be pretty good but I still think free ponies for all would create a lot more shit jobs.

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2 hours ago, Shambolic Tom said:

Good point. Gasoline was actually more expensive in 2010, not the same price, so maybe the minimum wage should go down?

Fair point.  You named one.  Then, let's set the minimum wage by the price of gas.  I mean, rent and all that other shit is inconsequential, right?

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  • 9 months later...
2 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

So, Manchin is voting with his wallet, as usual. Makes his announcement on Faux News, of course. Should the Dems primary the fuck out of him as payback?

Not before looking at the policy platforms of his last couple of general election Opponents to ponder whether they would prefer someone who votes along those lines. 

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1 minute ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Not before looking at the policy platforms of his last couple of general election Opponents to ponder whether they would prefer someone who votes along those lines. 

I'm thinking more of a primary with someone who leans more Democrat than Coal Baron.

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5 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

I'm thinking more of a primary with someone who leans more Democrat than Coal Baron.

That won’t work in WV, except for the GOP. His seat is a GOP seat counted for the DemocRATS at the moment. That’s how Biden confirmed 40 judges this year. Look at what he made possible, not just what he killed. Replacing Manchin on the ballot with someone left of him gives that seat to the GOP. 
 

He got it right when he said that the solution is to work to expand their majority and make him irrelevant. 

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I think:

(a) its hard to find a Democrat to the right of Manchin in West Virginia

(b) its hard to win a senatorial contest in West Virginia with Democrat to the left of Manchin.

Right now, the Democrats are 50:50 in the Senate and only +4 in the house.  If Manchin choses to join Republicans, the Democrats lose reconciliation and they get nothing.  Take the win from 2020 and work to build a bigger majority in 2022, so Manchin doesn't matter.

 

Pick a few very popular things - make em permanent instead of these 'nose under the tent' stuff, and jam em through.  Personally, I would pick:

"Offers universal and free preschool for all 3- and 4-year-olds, the largest expansion of universal and free education since states and communities across the country established public high school 100 years ago."

"Delivers affordable, high-quality care for older Americans and people with disabilities in their homes, while supporting the workers who provide this care."

"Reduces prescription drug costs."

"Strengthens the Affordable Care Act and reduces premiums for 9 Million Americans."

"Closes the Medicaid Coverage Gap, Leading 4 Million Uninsured People to Gain Coverage."

"Expands Medicare to cover hearing benefits. <--- ADD IN DENTAL"

---------------

Its easy to campaign on, even for folks in West Virginia.

 

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15 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

I'm thinking more of a primary with someone who leans more Democrat than Coal Baron.

Nah. Let him play his games.

The Democratic Party -should- show some toleration, inclusion, and compromise. Joe M. said at the outset what he wanted, and for the most part, hasn't changed. Some back and forth, in good faith, should cement a good working relationship and demonstrate the intent of good governance.

The (as others have said) work to build a bigger majority in 2022. That should be the main goal of political moves at this point.

- DSK

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1 hour ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

There are 20 Republican Senate seats up for 2022. I can’t tell democRATS what to do, but I submit that talking about those will likely serve your interests better than talking about Sen. Manchin. 

Unlikely to happen.  Makes too much sense

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Joe Manchin just nuked the build back better plan, what a disappointment!!

Our country desperately needs to address our infrastructure, and it would have happened but for this one Right Wing Arsehole with a fake (D) after his name....

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3 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

Joe Manchin just nuked the build back better plan, what a disappointment!!

Our country desperately needs to address our infrastructure, and it would have happened but for this one Right Wing Arsehole with a fake (D) after his name....

There are 50 other Senators aligned with him on this. BBB was doomed the moment that the Bipartisan* Infrastructure Bill passed. 

*Bipartisan + Senate = Best Americans Get All Profits From It. 

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35 minutes ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

There are 50 other Senators aligned with him on this. BBB was doomed the moment that the Bipartisan* Infrastructure Bill passed. 

*Bipartisan + Senate = Best Americans Get All Profits From It. 

I dont think Manchin was totally wrong. Some of the hippy dippy free day care for everyone forever stuff was liberal social engineering overreach. But there was an enormous opportunity to put like $2T into climate change and move the needle. 

How this moron couldn’t find a way to come away with a quarter of a trillion of it for his home state, I just don’t understand. He gave himself all the leverage, but came out with zero. Less than zero, because the GOP won’t help him and the Dems want him dead.

At the end of the day it was 2% about “worry about the national debt” and 98% about not pissing off the WV fossil fuel industry.

And all this stuff about “I can’t explain it to West Virginian” only says that both JM a and WV aware mentally retarded (I know we aren’t supposed to say that anymore but I request an exemption in this case because come on these people are mentally retarded).

How in the fuck do you not know how to explain “I just brought home $250B dollars” to a state that has a GDP of probably less than $100B??? 

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Manchin doesn't need the money, but his constituents surely do!!

He makes a half million every year from the WV Coal Industry, yet his people in WV are at the bottom of the barrel compared to other states by most every Metric.

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20 minutes ago, loneshark64 said:

I dont think Manchin was totally wrong. Some of the hippy dippy free day care for everyone forever stuff was liberal social engineering overreach. But there was an enormous opportunity to put like $2T into climate change and move the needle. 

How this moron couldn’t find a way to come away with a quarter of a trillion of it for his home state, I just don’t understand. He gave himself all the leverage, but came out with zero. Less than zero, because the GOP won’t help him and the Dems want him dead.

At the end of the day it was 2% about “worry about the national debt” and 98% about not pissing off the WV fossil fuel industry.

And all this stuff about “I can’t explain it to West Virginian” only says that both JM a and WV aware mentally retarded (I know we aren’t supposed to say that anymore but I request an exemption in this case because come on these people are mentally retarded).

How in the fuck do you not know how to explain “I just brought home $250B dollars” to a state that has a GDP of probably less than $100B??? 

I don't see how Manchin can see this as a "win" other than in the Republican sense of "it's a WIN for us when Democrats lose." He's hurt his connections to everything & everybody except big corporate donors, not brought home any pork to his state, and I don't see how it really helps the WV coal industry... if they can't ship the stuff out, they can't eat it themselves.

- DSK

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I for one don't think not supporting BBB is a bad thing.  I don't really see how we can afford spend trillions that we don't have and can't afford.  Promises that BBB would be 'paid for' were ludicrous.  An interesting take from Politico:

Manchin didn’t just shiv Biden’s agenda, he whacked his central campaign promise too (msn.com)

I expect in the new year, part of the BBB agenda will be realized but at a much smaller scale.  In the meantime, the status quo will be just fine.

Hroth

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44 minutes ago, hrothgar said:

I don't really see how we can afford spend trillions that we don't have and can't afford. 

I have always agreed with this, but I have been proven wrong. The US has taken on massive debt over 40 years and we are still going. There is a breaking point but who knows what it will be?

The one thing you CANNOT DO is shrink GDP. You can swallow debt, but you can’t shrink GDP (or even have a significant decline in rate of GDP growth).

And that’s where we’re headed. Lower growth + higher interest rates + high inflation = recession. 

Recession = GOP president in 2024.

The only remedy is stimulus. You can’t cut rates, they are already on the floor. Biden knew this. Inflation and rate increases were unavoidable so getting infrastructure and BBB was existential for him. With no more stimulus the Biden admin is over.

What’s the 1st thing the GOP president will do? 

Slash taxes, stimulus, more debt. 

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38 minutes ago, hrothgar said:

I for one don't think not supporting BBB is a bad thing.  I don't really see how we can afford spend trillions that we don't have and can't afford.  Promises that BBB would be 'paid for' were ludicrous.  An interesting take from Politico:

Manchin didn’t just shiv Biden’s agenda, he whacked his central campaign promise too (msn.com)

I expect in the new year, part of the BBB agenda will be realized but at a much smaller scale.  In the meantime, the status quo will be just fine.

Hroth

I don't see how anybody can expect this country to keep operating, without a massive investment in our crumbling 50 year old infrastructure.

We've been spending less and less on basics, and going into debt for wars. If you spend any time in any other country, then come back to the USA, you'll be surprised how backwards and broke-down everything here looks. It's not "just fine," we are sinking into 3rd world status.

- DSK

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53 minutes ago, loneshark64 said:

What’s the 1st thing the GOP president will do? 

Slash taxes, stimulus, more debt. 

Any tax slashes will benefit the wealthy.

And, one of these days, those tax cuts for the wealthy are going to trickle down.  Belief me.

 

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20 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

Any tax slashes will benefit the wealthy.

And, one of these days, those tax cuts for the wealthy are going to trickle down.  Belief me.

 

It's only been a bit over 40 years.  The Job Creators (hallowed be Their names) will create jobs if we just stay the course. 

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14 minutes ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

It's only been a bit over 40 years.  The Job Creators (hallowed be Their names) will create jobs if we just stay the course. 

I've already told my children they should inform their future children/grandchildren to keep an eye out for that.

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45 minutes ago, Sol Rosenberg said:
1 hour ago, Bus Driver said:

Any tax slashes will benefit the wealthy.

And, one of these days, those tax cuts for the wealthy are going to trickle down.  Belief me.

 

It's only been a bit over 40 years.  The Job Creators (hallowed be Their names) will create jobs if we just stay the course. 

Apparently, they have now created lots of lovely jobs but ungrateful poor people are not going back to work. Lazy sods!

It's unpatriotic to turn down low wages so that The Chosen Ones can get richer!

- DSK

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3 hours ago, billy backstay said:

Manchin doesn't need the money, but his constituents surely do!!

He makes a half million every year from the WV Coal Industry, yet his people in WV are at the bottom of the barrel compared to other states by most every Metric.

Turns out he doesn't give a shit about his constituents: 

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/joe-manchin-build-back-better-child-tax-credit-drugs_n_61bf8f6be4b061afe394006d

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

Apparently, they have now created lots of lovely jobs but ungrateful poor people are not going back to work. Lazy sods!

It's unpatriotic to turn down low wages so that The Chosen Ones can get richer!

- DSK

Market forces? Free markets, free people? Ha ha. That doesn’t apply when it would help the dirty little people. 

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3 minutes ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Market forces? Free markets, free people? Ha ha. That doesn’t apply when it would help the dirty little people. 

Unfortunately, I think you're correct. Look at all the people who are supposedly intelligent and fair-minded, including many public commentators, who express chagrin at the idea that poor people should have leverage for increasing wages during times of high demand for labor.

We've been hearing for decades now about the "liberal-biased" media but when you actually pay attention, most of it is tilted to the right.

- DSK

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5 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Unfortunately, I think you're correct. Look at all the people who are supposedly intelligent and fair-minded, including many public commentators, who express chagrin at the idea that poor people should have leverage for increasing wages during times of high demand for labor.

We've been hearing for decades now about the "liberal-biased" media but when you actually pay attention, most of it is tilted to the right.

- DSK

Some of it is so tilted that it is about to topple over.  Can we call it the Tower of Pisa effect?

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On 3/8/2021 at 12:53 PM, Zonker said:

You could look to Australia for how a high minimum wage works. Currently $19.84/hr AUD federal min. wage.  Bit lower if you're young

But somehow Big Macs are still relatively affordable. How can the mega corporations still make a profit?

Some things that have a high labour component are costly (berries come to mind because all hand picked)

Restaurant meals are a bit more pricey but not outrageous. It helps that you don't have to put down an extra 20% tip as a consumer.

Any Ozzies want to chime in on how wages work at the low end of the spectrum?

Not a great comparison. the Oz dollar is worth .71c US. so that makes the wage $14.08 yet basics in Oz are much more expensive than the US (economies of scale). 

 

 

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12 hours ago, hrothgar said:

I for one don't think not supporting BBB is a bad thing.  I don't really see how we can afford spend trillions that we don't have and can't afford.  Promises that BBB would be 'paid for' were ludicrous.  An interesting take from Politico:

Manchin didn’t just shiv Biden’s agenda, he whacked his central campaign promise too (msn.com)

I expect in the new year, part of the BBB agenda will be realized but at a much smaller scale.  In the meantime, the status quo will be just fine.

Hroth

Tell that to Haliburton (or whatever they call themselves now), Northrop, Raytheon, Boeing, Colt, etc.

The military/(Defense) budget is 75% pork for fat cats to slurp up, and everyone knows it. When was the last time the USA used it's "defense" dept. to defend the USA?

Oh sure talk about cyber attacks.... Pssshhhhtttt! A room full of teenagers could probably do better than a building full of "Defense annalists".

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19 hours ago, loneshark64 said:

I have always agreed with this, but I have been proven wrong. The US has taken on massive debt over 40 years and we are still going. There is a breaking point but who knows what it will be?

I can guess what, but not when.

The dollar remains strong despite our excessive boondoggling and borrowing because it's the world reserve currency. Makes it pretty hard to shake, though we're feeling some tremors.

"We don't trust the dollar most any more and now trust _____________________ more."

So far, no one has filled in that blank. Someone does, that's a breaking point.

 

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The reserve currency is a part of it.  That puts a floor under 'minimum debt'.   The US cannot - ever - payoff its debt and still be a reserve currency.  LITERALLY - that's not the way the monetary system works.  US debt is the currency - paying it off means no more currency means no more reserve status.  They're mutually exclusive concepts.

The US is 'less bad' than its economically competitive cohort.  If you look at the ECB, the Japanese, the Chinese, the Russians, etc.. its not like any of them are being 'fiscally conservative'.  If anything, the US is the laggard in terms of public spending.   That's why THEIR excess private wealth floods into OUR system, an not as much the other way around.  The US goes there for growth, the world comes to the US for safety.

People talk about the 'Scandinavian countries' - those are extraction economies more akin to Saudi Arabia with a less nutty religion.   And no offense, but even with all that extraction resource, their combined 1.4 trillion GDP adds up to "January" in terms of the US GDP.  They can be an aspirational example, but not a repeatable one.  If the US tried to 'extract' its way to prosperity, the earth really couldn't take it.

To be blunt, there's nothing in the BBB that we can't afford.  We could fund then whole thing and it won't matter over 10 years.   Its 1.75 trillion over 10 years.  In that 10 years, the US GDP will be ~ 275 Trillion.  It's around 0.6% of spending.  It's too expensive is a less confrontational way of saying 'I don't want to buy that'.  The US can afford it.

That's not where all the inflation is coming from.  And, for what it's worth, I do agree with Powell that the inflation is 'transitory' - but not in a convenient election cycle short run.  Inflation is transitory over the next 2-3 years and then we'll revert to baseline - which is mildly deflationary.  Demographics always win out.

I believe the current bout of inflation is a flat tax on our poor planning and execution at restarting the economy combined with pent up frustrations from the lock down.  It's going to go away pretty quickly IMHO.  Maybe by this time next year but probably more by 2023.  FWIW, the way the government calculates inflation is so audacious, it makes a new-age crystal/aroma/chakra healer blush.  But whatever.

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21 minutes ago, BeSafe said:

The US is 'less bad' than its economically competitive cohort.  If you look at the ECB, the Japanese, the Chinese, the Russians, etc.. its not like any of them are being 'fiscally conservative'. 

Yeah, that's my point. I'm not exactly brimming with faith in the US government until I start looking around the world for others I'd trust more.

Of course, one could look beyond government currencies and perhaps find that options not controlled by politicians are more trustworthy. But that's another thread.

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5 hours ago, BeSafe said:

The reserve currency is a part of it.  That puts a floor under 'minimum debt'.   The US cannot - ever - payoff its debt and still be a reserve currency.  LITERALLY - that's not the way the monetary system works.  US debt is the currency - paying it off means no more currency means no more reserve status.  They're mutually exclusive concepts.

The US is 'less bad' than its economically competitive cohort.  If you look at the ECB, the Japanese, the Chinese, the Russians, etc.. its not like any of them are being 'fiscally conservative'.  If anything, the US is the laggard in terms of public spending.   That's why THEIR excess private wealth floods into OUR system, an not as much the other way around.  The US goes there for growth, the world comes to the US for safety.

People talk about the 'Scandinavian countries' - those are extraction economies more akin to Saudi Arabia with a less nutty religion.   And no offense, but even with all that extraction resource, their combined 1.4 trillion GDP adds up to "January" in terms of the US GDP.  They can be an aspirational example, but not a repeatable one.  If the US tried to 'extract' its way to prosperity, the earth really couldn't take it.

To be blunt, there's nothing in the BBB that we can't afford.  We could fund then whole thing and it won't matter over 10 years.   Its 1.75 trillion over 10 years.  In that 10 years, the US GDP will be ~ 275 Trillion.  It's around 0.6% of spending.  It's too expensive is a less confrontational way of saying 'I don't want to buy that'.  The US can afford it.

That's not where all the inflation is coming from.  And, for what it's worth, I do agree with Powell that the inflation is 'transitory' - but not in a convenient election cycle short run.  Inflation is transitory over the next 2-3 years and then we'll revert to baseline - which is mildly deflationary.  Demographics always win out.

I believe the current bout of inflation is a flat tax on our poor planning and execution at restarting the economy combined with pent up frustrations from the lock down.  It's going to go away pretty quickly IMHO.  Maybe by this time next year but probably more by 2023.  FWIW, the way the government calculates inflation is so audacious, it makes a new-age crystal/aroma/chakra healer blush.  But whatever.

^This is 100% correct. $1.75T or $2T or $3T is mice nuts. It does matter what you invest it in, that should be the discussion. The investments need to drive growth. But Manchin and probably 2/3 of the senate and 98% of the house do not understand the modern economy, and both parties are hell bent on social engineering.

We fucked ourselves by letting industry/private equity outsource our manufacturing and supply chain to China and offshore half the non service jobs. A BBB investment in new energy industries and supply chain is an opportunity to correct that. 

Manchin is a brain dead idiot and Biden failed to swing him, but don’t forget that the entire GOP is doing this - not fixing the country - all so they can get Trump back in the White House so we can go back to him having three mental health shitstorms a week and trying to blow Kim Jong Il for four more years.

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1 hour ago, loneshark64 said:

^This is 100% correct. $1.75T or $2T or $3T is mice nuts. It does matter what you invest it in, that should be the discussion. The investments need to drive growth. But Manchin and probably 2/3 of the senate and 98% of the house do not understand the modern economy, and both parties are hell bent on social engineering.

We fucked ourselves by letting industry/private equity outsource our manufacturing and supply chain to China and offshore half the non service jobs. A BBB investment in new energy industries and supply chain is an opportunity to correct that. 

Manchin is a brain dead idiot and Biden failed to swing him, but don’t forget that the entire GOP is doing this - not fixing the country - all so they can get Trump back in the White House so we can go back to him having three mental health shitstorms a week and trying to blow Kim Jong Il for four more years.

And have a Trumpublican-selected dictator for the duration of the existence of this country

- DSK

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