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Neo-Con agenda - Stay in Afghanistan


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12 minutes ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

Last week it was Neo-Liberals, this week it is Neo-Cons. Do you think if you add 'Neo-' it makes you look smarter?

Next up, Neo-Nazis

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40 minutes ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

Last week it was Neo-Liberals, this week it is Neo-Cons. Do you think if you add 'Neo-' it makes you look smarter?

With him, Neolithic would be an improvement.

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Neo-anderthal ?? 

But Vets For Peace also wants to end the Forever Wars ..  

Very thoughtful book by that title by Joe Haldeman 

21611

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10 hours ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

Last week it was Neo-Liberals, this week it is Neo-Cons. Do you think if you add 'Neo-' it makes you look smarter?

Nope just acknowledgement that Biden's a neocon and confirming that you racist bitches are okay with that. :D 

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Never leaving. $-)) giphy.gif 

 

 

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On 3/11/2021 at 2:54 PM, d'ranger said:

How about starting with ending the War on Drugs? 

How about doing that AND ending the forever war on terror?

On 3/11/2021 at 3:00 PM, kent_island_sailor said:

Aren't we?

No, we're still stuck on waiting for more research before deciding whether to allow more research.

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We need to get our troops out of Afghanistan now. Yes, they serve a counter terrorism purpose, but that purpose was greatly diminished on Yoo Hoo Day (May 2, 2011), when bin laden went from a secure compound in Abottabad to the bottom of the Indian Ocean in just a few hours. There is no safe harbor for those who attack the US. Bring the troops home. 

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11 minutes ago, Olsonist said:

There is no constructive point to our being there. Afghanistan is just red welfare.

Exactly.  It is nothing more than a mechanism for laundering borrowed money and giving it to the Best Americans. 

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8 minutes ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Exactly.  It is nothing more than a mechanism for laundering borrowed money and giving it to the Best Americans. 

I'm skimming through A Promised Land to see what Obama's explanation is for staying there. It doesn't seem that he ever gives fair hearing to the simple question: why are we staying? He admits that there are no easy answers. But it all seems so procedural.

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3 minutes ago, Olsonist said:

I'm skimming through A Promised Land to see what Obama's explanation is for staying there. It doesn't seem that he ever gives fair hearing to the simple question: why are we staying? He admits that there are no easy answers. But it all seems so procedural.

Because if we don't stay, Mitch McConnell and his caucus won't behave in a bipartisan fashion. 

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8 minutes ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Because if we don't stay, Mitch McConnell and his caucus won't behave in a bipartisan fashion. 

No, I can't blame this on Moscow, much as detest him. Gates, Mullen, ... the military, really wanted to stay. They just didn't want an L going on their record when they could say the game was in overtime. Better losing than lost. Obama said that the one person asking the tough questions (which the Pentagon didn't to hear) was ... Joe Biden.

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1 minute ago, Olsonist said:

No, I can't blame this on Moscow, much as detest him. Gates, Mullen, ... the military, really wanted to stay. They just didn't want an L going on their record when they could say the game was in overtime. Better losing than lost.

getting out before it bankrupts us is a win. Ask Vlad. Speaking of him, Trump should have given him the Presidential Meddle of Freedom. 

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1 hour ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

getting out before it bankrupts us is a win. Ask Vlad. Speaking of him, Trump should have given him the Presidential Meddle of Freedom. 

Still waiting for your Fruit loop moment Sol.  Perhaps it will come to you on your deathbed. :ph34r:

16y6jg.jpg

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  • 4 weeks later...

Some kind of 9/11 PR stunt for Biden? Should have withdrawn on Inauguration Day. All the facts are known. No study needed. Military can be out in hours. Afghanistan "government" is going to fall to the Taliban without regard to when the US surrenders the several hundred acres they control. 100% certain.

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16 minutes ago, El Mariachi said:

 

Curing cancer is possible...but not the sure-thing like Trump's promise to make the wealthy even wealthier.

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34 minutes ago, Borracho said:

Some kind of 9/11 PR stunt for Biden? Should have withdrawn on Inauguration Day. All the facts are known. No study needed. Military can be out in hours. Afghanistan "government" is going to fall to the Taliban without regard to when the US surrenders the several hundred acres they control. 100% certain.

it's sad how the Taliban has that country by the balls, so many good, innocent people will go through bloody hell as a result. if our corporate henchmen, i.e. our military, can prevent some of that with a presence, isn't that more than worthy of consideration?

 

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1). This is gonna be a tough balancing act.

 

2). And I for one am glad I'm not the person who has to make this decision.

 

3). 'Cuz I have enough trouble every afternoon just deciding between between carne asada tacos.....or fish tacos.......

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On 3/11/2021 at 11:07 AM, AJ Oliver said:

Neo-anderthal ?? 

But Vets For Peace also wants to end the Forever Wars ..  

Very thoughtful book by that title by Joe Haldeman 

21611

And the premise is different from 1984 exactly how?

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49 minutes ago, 3to1 said:

it's sad how the Taliban has that country by the balls, so many good, innocent people will go through bloody hell as a result. if our corporate henchmen, i.e. our military, can prevent some of that with a presence, isn't that more than worthy of consideration?

We’ve been there for 20 years. The obvious and now empirical answer is an emphatic no.

Like Vietnam it is a civil war on the other side of the world. In Vietnam, we stupidly tried to make it a geopolitical proxy war about the fight against communism.  We lost and my tennis shoes were made in ... Vietnam. Afghanistan is not about terrorism. Our presence there is terrorism. Afghanistan is about Raytheon.

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46 minutes ago, Olsonist said:

We’ve been there for 20 years. The obvious and now empirical answer is an emphatic no.

Like Vietnam it is a civil war on the other side of the world. In Vietnam, we stupidly tried to make it a geopolitical proxy war about the fight against communism.  We lost and my tennis shoes were made in ... Vietnam. Afghanistan is not about terrorism. Our presence there is terrorism. Afghanistan is about Raytheon.

yea, I guess I don't have much of anything to question any of that apart from the civilian/innocents welfare angle.

I'm ignorant to the details, what's up with raytheon in Afghanistan? are the kunts being dirty birdies?

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9 minutes ago, 3to1 said:

... raytheon in ...

Raytheon is just shorthand for the military industrial complex. We are there to spend 'defense' budget. Right wing welfare if you will.

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3 minutes ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Uh oh. It looks like Biden is going to pull the troops out. Have fun with the flip flop.

Yoo Hoo has an indefinite shelf life.

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4 minutes ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Uh oh. It looks like Biden is going to pull the troops out. Have fun with the flip flop.

damn, that's a bitch..

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2 hours ago, 3to1 said:

it's sad how the Taliban has that country by the balls, so many good, innocent people will go through bloody hell as a result. if our corporate henchmen, i.e. our military, can prevent some of that with a presence, isn't that more than worthy of consideration?

 

Yes and no... IMHO the no is the more important side of the equation. Good and innocent people go thru hell as the normal course of life, all around the world. We certainly want to help IF WE CAN and a very important priority in foreign policy is to not make it worse.

The big part... can we? IMHO Afghanistan is not fixable. They don't have a widely accepted notion of being "a country," they've always been a loose coalition of tribes and hated/feared outsiders (they still remember Alexander the Great and Tamerlane) more than each other. The USA has tried to put together a coalition of tribal leaders that can agree and run the country but the mere fact of being supported by the USA undercuts them, to much of the population.

Part of it is the common culture, part of it is the lack of notable leadership on the part of the tribal leaders available for us to work with.

We should have left 10 years ago, or more. Build a mountain of skulls and say "don't make us come back." Leave them to their own devices and offer some foreign aid help if it looks like it might do some good... like rebuilding the roads & bridges & irrigation systems that the Russians blew up, they liked it but not so much that local thugs don't overcharge to use it when they get a chance, or blow it up out of a grudge either against us or against the next village a few miles away.

Perhaps if we'd sided with the Taliban, all Afghanis would hate them and want to kill them and would never tolerate being governed by them (to the extent that they tolerate being governed at all). They don't like the Taliban but they don't like us, or anybody that we support, worse.

- DSK

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40 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

...Perhaps if we'd sided with the Taliban, all Afghanis would hate them and want to kill them and would never tolerate being governed by them (to the extent that they tolerate being governed at all). They don't like the Taliban but they don't like us, or anybody that we support, worse.

That would be clever. Or how about next time we try foreign aid. This war cost US$50,000 per Afghani. 100 years wages each. Oh yeah...Raytheon wouldn't get any. Nevermind.

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6 minutes ago, Borracho said:

That would be clever. Or how about next time we try foreign aid. This war cost US$50,000 per Afghani. 100 years wages each. Oh yeah...Raytheon wouldn't get any. Nevermind.

Not foreign aid, foreign trade. Folks either believe in the transformative magic of the market or they don’t.

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8 minutes ago, Olsonist said:

Not foreign aid, foreign trade. Folks either believe in the transformative magic of the market or they don’t.

So back to normal...the opium trade. 

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5 minutes ago, Olsonist said:
13 minutes ago, Borracho said:

That would be clever. Or how about next time we try foreign aid. This war cost US$50,000 per Afghani. 100 years wages each. Oh yeah...Raytheon wouldn't get any. Nevermind.

Not foreign aid, foreign trade. Folks either believe in the transformative magic of the market or they don’t.

I've talked with a fair number of people, including vets, spent time in Afghanistan. The country has some very deep-seated fucked-up attitudes.

We want to build roads, all the people would benefit from better easier transport and it also gives villagers jobs. Great, they like to make a little money and hopefully they'll learn a little about skills & the outside world etc etc. No. They don't learn fuck-all, they go backwards. After a couple of weeks, they realize that the neighboring village will ALSO benefit from a road and fuck those guys, let's blow up the goddam ferangi road! If there was supposed to be a road here, ALLAH would have put one here! While we're at it, let's burn the equipment and steal the shovels (which is technology they can understand).

The NGO guys learned over the years that the best way to cope is to just work a week, then give everybody two weeks off. They can tend their goats and their crops and sit in their boring-ass huts until they decide, "yeah, it's better if we get up and go to work" but within a week they will be squabbling and hating progress again.

Slight differences from region to region, and many places are really not very religious... but the basic attitude as very similar. They are born peasants. They are extremely racist although apparently skin color matters less to them than your born tribe. Smartphone-using peasants. Trying to lift them up is a job for centuries.

- DSK

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2 hours ago, Olsonist said:

Yoo Hoo has an indefinite shelf life.

We are coming up on the tenth anniversary of the Yoo Hoo thread becoming legendary. Not that I’m watching or anything. 

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

Yes and no... IMHO the no is the more important side of the equation. Good and innocent people go thru hell as the normal course of life, all around the world. We certainly want to help IF WE CAN and a very important priority in foreign policy is to not make it worse.

The big part... can we? IMHO Afghanistan is not fixable. They don't have a widely accepted notion of being "a country," they've always been a loose coalition of tribes and hated/feared outsiders (they still remember Alexander the Great and Tamerlane) more than each other. The USA has tried to put together a coalition of tribal leaders that can agree and run the country but the mere fact of being supported by the USA undercuts them, to much of the population.

Part of it is the common culture, part of it is the lack of notable leadership on the part of the tribal leaders available for us to work with.

We should have left 10 years ago, or more. Build a mountain of skulls and say "don't make us come back." Leave them to their own devices and offer some foreign aid help if it looks like it might do some good... like rebuilding the roads & bridges & irrigation systems that the Russians blew up, they liked it but not so much that local thugs don't overcharge to use it when they get a chance, or blow it up out of a grudge either against us or against the next village a few miles away.

Perhaps if we'd sided with the Taliban, all Afghanis would hate them and want to kill them and would never tolerate being governed by them (to the extent that they tolerate being governed at all). They don't like the Taliban but they don't like us, or anybody that we support, worse.

- DSK

ok, it's a tribalism madhouse, and yes, sounds like pulling out is the overall more prudent course. but it sucks, because many there aren't fkg mad.

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50 minutes ago, Borracho said:

So back to normal...the opium trade. 

Afghanistan has hella minerals. They have other agriculture besides opium, pomegranates.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomegranate_production_in_Afghanistan

And overpay. Or just shovel the money over to the Raytheon board of directors. Silicon Valley proverb:

You get what you incent.

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24 minutes ago, 3to1 said:

ok, it's a tribalism madhouse, and yes, sounds like pulling out is the overall more prudent course. but it sucks, because many there aren't fkg mad.

Let’s not forget the warlords on the ground who ever since the CIA walked in with suitcases full of cash post 9/11 have found ways to play two ends to the middle and sucker Uncle Sam for a few more dollars.
This will not end well, the US will walk away, as they should.

We all should let historical factions within sort their shit out and see what rises.

Ignoring history and thinking all problems will all go away with lots of money thrown at them has always been a stupid approach. Once Uncle Sam or any other nation throws money at an issue that issue will become a money maker for dubious leaders and their middlemen with no trickle down.

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

I've talked with a fair number of people, including vets, spent time in Afghanistan. The country has some very deep-seated fucked-up attitudes.

We want to build roads, all the people would benefit from better easier transport and it also gives villagers jobs. Great, they like to make a little money and hopefully they'll learn a little about skills & the outside world etc etc. No. They don't learn fuck-all, they go backwards. After a couple of weeks, they realize that the neighboring village will ALSO benefit from a road and fuck those guys, let's blow up the goddam ferangi road! If there was supposed to be a road here, ALLAH would have put one here! While we're at it, let's burn the equipment and steal the shovels (which is technology they can understand).

The NGO guys learned over the years that the best way to cope is to just work a week, then give everybody two weeks off. They can tend their goats and their crops and sit in their boring-ass huts until they decide, "yeah, it's better if we get up and go to work" but within a week they will be squabbling and hating progress again.

Slight differences from region to region, and many places are really not very religious... but the basic attitude as very similar. They are born peasants. They are extremely racist although apparently skin color matters less to them than your born tribe. Smartphone-using peasants. Trying to lift them up is a job for centuries.

- DSK

You're not all wrong, but the reason those Pashtun mountain villagers didn't want roads is it gave access to tax collectors and much much worse.  We assume all governments are like ours but boy o boy some of them are the Supranos, and not anywhere near as charming. 

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4 minutes ago, Mark K said:

You're not all wrong, but the reason those Pashtun mountain villagers didn't want roads is it gave access to tax collectors and much much worse.  We assume all governments are like ours but boy o boy some of them are the Supranos, and not anywhere near as charming. 

Just passing along what I've been told. Some of the people I have talked with did more complex projects and had some degree of success, but road building is a kind of the classic case.

Agreed that many (most?) of the headmen would rather not have any road that they cannot absolutely control (ie stop anybody) because they don't want national troops or tax collectors or in many cases, doctors & teachers. We got around this in some case by following traditional route thru perfect ambush points, even though it meant making the road worse... local acceptance is the only way to have it stay.

The Pashtuns don't want any infrastructure that will benefit the Tajiks or Nuris or especially the those goddam Hezara, even if it helps helps them too. They happily cut off their own nose to spite their face.

The USA has absolutely zero strategic interest in Afghanistan. We didn't even need to bomb them into the stone age, they already were there. Once we removed Al Queda, we should have left. Literally, we should have done what Alexander and Tamerlane did- build a mountain of skulls and plant our flag on it, and say "don't make us come back here." No nation building is possible because they don't have the material to build with. Afghanistan is not fixable, at least not by us.

- DSK

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Not sure if you could find it, but there is a wonderful Iranian-Canadian film called Kandahar (2001) that gives a haunting sense of what Afghanistan was like under the Taliban and what one assumes it will revert to after the US leaves.

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4 minutes ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

Not sure if you could find it, but there is a wonderful Iranian-Canadian film called Kandahar (2001) that gives a haunting sense of what Afghanistan was like under the Taliban and what one assumes it will revert to after the US leaves.

You guys ever see those old 8mm & 16mm movies on YouTube, of Iraq & Iran, back in the daze? I find them....fascinating....

 

 

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7 hours ago, Left Shift said:

And the premise [of Haldeman's Forever War]is different from 1984 exactly how?

I'll treat that as a serious question - pretty rare on PA these days !!

It has been a while since I have read those two books (BTW, have you??), but 

FW cleverly uses the time travel element, which 84 does not. 

84 is earthbound, FW is not. 

In 84 the regime is more malevolent . . the protagonist is fooled, not tortured 

But as to the basic premise, if you reduce any anti-war books far enough, 

they are gonna be as General Smedley Butler described them in 

War is a Racket 

Hope that helps 

image.jpeg.d069d82c4a5ad1fc129cd38d43c1e854.jpeg

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36 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

...

FW cleverly uses the time travel element, which 84 does not. 

...

What is time when you can rewrite history? That was Winston's job. He was a cog and he knew he was a cog which he knew was above a prole but still below O'Brien. He took pride in his work. I don't think Winston was fooled at all. That would be like saying Kayleigh McEnany was fooled. Yeah, he wasn't told the truth (well maybe until he read Goldstein's book) but even before that he knew that he was telling lies. It wasn't until Julia seduced him that he had a concept of an Own Life. Before that he was just a cog perhaps in need of some grease.

BTW, you might have meant something else but in the end, Winston sure as hell gets tortured in Room 101.

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4 minutes ago, Olsonist said:

What is time when you can rewrite history?

All good points !! Thanks !! 

And yes, I meant the opposite of what I wrote (blush !!) 

As I understand it, Winston was tortured, Mandella in FW was not. 

I am a big Orwell fan and have read most of his work . . 

To me, several of his other books were better than '84 or Animal Farm . . . 

I wonder what he would say about Animal Farm now being a favorite book of the Reich. 

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Ha ha! AJ told a funny! The Reich don't read. Actually I haven't heard that about Animal Farm but I couldn't care less.

I've read 1984, Animal Farm, Down+Out and Homage to Catalonia and quite a few of his essays. The two standouts would be Politics and the English Language and Shooting an Elephant1984 is The Book as far as I'm concerned and I think Animal Farm is just out of this world good. But what would you recommend?

BTW, you better know your Russian history cold if you want to read Master and Margherita as an Animal Farm like allegory rather than as dumb fantasy. I didn't. Some things are just Russian. With Animal Farm, you don't have to know much.

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14 hours ago, Borracho said:

Some kind of 9/11 PR stunt for Biden?

Yes, delaying the agreed upon withdrawal date of May 1 seems to be just a PR stunt. There's no reason to believe we'll accomplish anything useful in a few more months. The announced delay is already having negative consequences.
 

Quote

 

Unfortunately, the delay is already creating openings for advocates of neverending war. John Bolton, the former George W. Bush and Donald Trump advisor and physical embodiment of the reckless interventionism that has defined the past two decades of U.S. foreign policy, responded to Tuesday's announcement by tweeting that "a full unconditional retreat of U.S. forces from Afghanistan is reckless." Leaving Afghanistan means "the Afghan government will likely fall, & terrorists will enjoy a resurgence threatening America," Bolton wrote. 

A four-month delay in withdrawing U.S. forces means four more months for the Biden administration to be swayed into staying even longer.

 

 

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Tom.   I actually agree.    Treat it like Gallipoli or Washington’s retreat to Manhattan.    Just ghost away in the night,   

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8 hours ago, Olsonist said:

May 1st was Tom’s boy Shitstain‘s date, a campaign promise by a notable truth teller.

I forgot to apologize for the Koch-$pon$ored Trump cheerleading I posted. Sorry as usual.

But you say our presence is terrorism and right wing welfare, so why are you cheering for Biden's decision to prolong our terrorism and right wing welfare?

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14 minutes ago, Excoded Tom said:

I forgot to apologize for the Koch-$pon$ored Trump cheerleading I posted. Sorry as usual.

But you say our presence is terrorism and right wing welfare, so why are you cheering for Biden's decision to prolong our terrorism and right wing welfare?

Belated apology duly noted. Now that is an interesting question. However, your concern for us leaving would have been of more note, say, around 4 years ago. What did your boy Shitstain hope to accomplish between his glorious re-election, now stolen, and May 1st since we only have around 2,500 troops there now? Your boy must have been accomplishing something ... important. What is it about you Republicans not cleaning up your shit?

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9 minutes ago, Olsonist said:

Belated apology duly noted. Now that is an interesting question. However, your concern for us leaving would have been of more note, say, around 4 years ago. What did your boy Shitstain hope to accomplish between his glorious re-election, now stolen, and May 1st since we only have around 2,500 troops there now? Your boy must have been accomplishing something ... important.

OK, here's an example of my concern over Duopoly warmongering from four years ago.

  

On 4/11/2017 at 7:56 AM, Excoded Tom said:

 

So given that we're still using the 2001 AUMF, it seems Trump is continuing Obama's war, which was actually W's war. Or, more properly, police action. Guns.

 


With apologies to Bus Driver, but he did ask.

Now, you say our presence is terrorism and right wing welfare, so why are you cheering for Biden's decision to prolong our terrorism and right wing welfare?

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14 hours ago, Excoded Tom said:

Yes, delaying the agreed upon withdrawal date of May 1 seems to be just a PR stunt. There's no reason to believe we'll accomplish anything useful in a few more months. The announced delay is already having negative consequences.
 

 

Not many people but we got a lot of stuff to move out, and we will do that in a way that discourages Parthian Shot notions. The look will be "bristling" and careful.  

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23 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Just passing along what I've been told. Some of the people I have talked with did more complex projects and had some degree of success, but road building is a kind of the classic case.

Agreed that many (most?) of the headmen would rather not have any road that they cannot absolutely control (ie stop anybody) because they don't want national troops or tax collectors or in many cases, doctors & teachers. We got around this in some case by following traditional route thru perfect ambush points, even though it meant making the road worse... local acceptance is the only way to have it stay.

The Pashtuns don't want any infrastructure that will benefit the Tajiks or Nuris or especially the those goddam Hezara, even if it helps helps them too. They happily cut off their own nose to spite their face.

The USA has absolutely zero strategic interest in Afghanistan. We didn't even need to bomb them into the stone age, they already were there. Once we removed Al Queda, we should have left. Literally, we should have done what Alexander and Tamerlane did- build a mountain of skulls and plant our flag on it, and say "don't make us come back here." No nation building is possible because they don't have the material to build with. Afghanistan is not fixable, at least not by us.

- DSK

Not everybody wants to be like us, and a surprising percentage have a pretty good picture in their heads about what we are. 

 

 The Afghans tolerated the puritanical Taliban because they were more fair adjudicators of the "law" than the war-lords that they kicked out. At least the Taliban didn't take your son out in the woods and rape the shit out of him for failing to come up with enough extortion money. The Talibs didn't send preachers wandering in the hills so much as they sent judges, who arbitrated local disputes, and for a very small fee.  Nipping feuds in the bud or ending them in two shakes of a goat's tail is all the government those mountain folks care to have.       

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On 4/13/2021 at 6:04 PM, Steam Flyer said:

... The USA has absolutely zero strategic interest in Afghanistan. ...

The British + Russians surveyed Afghanistan and they do have a lot of minerals there. $7T in untapped minerals, the freaking Saudi Arabia of minerals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_in_Afghanistan

But they're on the other side of the world and we just spent 20 expensive years fucking the place up. So we're out. Russia shared a border but that was Back In The USSR and they also spent quite a few years fucking things up. But we fucked harder and of late the Russians have even been cozying up to the Talibs but mostly to fuck us up. Dunno if that'll matter with respect to the mining. And then there's the Chinese who share a border and haven't spent decades fucking things up. Yeah, I think there will be Chinese mining engineers in there in five or so years. Like Vietnam, it's not clear how we could have fucked things up worse. Gates, Mullen, Petraeus ... the generals, they sure were geniuses. But it turns out they didn't have a clue.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/investigations/afghanistan-papers/afghanistan-war-confidential-documents/

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11 minutes ago, Olsonist said:

The British + Russians surveyed Afghanistan and they do have a lot of minerals there. $7T in untapped minerals, the freaking Saudi Arabia of minerals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_in_Afghanistan

But they're on the other side of the world and we just spent 20 expensive years fucking the place up. So we're out. Russia shared a border but that was Back In The USSR and they also spent quite a few years fucking things up. But we fucked harder and of late the Russians have even been cozying up to the Talibs but mostly to fuck us up. Dunno if that'll matter with respect to the mining. And then there's the Chinese who share a border and haven't spent decades fucking things up. Yeah, I think there will be Chinese mining engineers in there in five or so years. Like Vietnam, it's not clear how we could have fucked things up worse. Gates, Mullen, Petraeus ... the generals, they sure were geniuses. But it turns out they didn't have a clue.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/investigations/afghanistan-papers/afghanistan-war-confidential-documents/

No worries, US war criminals will never be held accountable in anyway and just like with Viet Nam, Libya, Syria, Iraq, Yemen etc. etc. and they made a ton of money hoodwinking the American tax donkey. Meanwhile @Sol Rosenberg and the other pro interventionist douchebags that troll this site, will continue to post inane photos of hippies and ridicule those that question the false narrative. Can't fix stupid.   

former-us-president-george-w-bush-smiles

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2 hours ago, Mark K said:

Not everybody wants to be like us, and a surprising percentage have a pretty good picture in their heads about what we are. 

 

 The Afghans tolerated the puritanical Taliban because they were more fair adjudicators of the "law" than the war-lords that they kicked out. At least the Taliban didn't take your son out in the woods and rape the shit out of him for failing to come up with enough extortion money. The Talibs didn't send preachers wandering in the hills so much as they sent judges, who arbitrated local disputes, and for a very small fee.  Nipping feuds in the bud or ending them in two shakes of a goat's tail is all the government those mountain folks care to have.       

From what I gather, there is no "Afghanistan". 

Afghanistan is largely a collection of tribal villages/clans that live adjacent to one another but only because they were born there.  Much like Serbian/Croatians/Czechs/Slovaks:  "Stay out of my valley.  We remember what you did in 1456."   The central government is there only to provide services to each tribe, as long as each tribe thinks they are getting the better deal. 

The Taliban seeks power the same way the Evangelicals do here or the Sunnis have achieved in Saudi Arabia:  In order to impose their own religious laws and fantasies and to dominate women.  They are all 1000 years behind the course of human development.

Sure there will be a power vacuum to be filled with the Taliban dogmatists.  Sure there will be pain and suffering.  When will it stop? When native-grown someone/some entity exerts enough influence internally to cause it to happen.  Any outside assistance will subvert and pervert whatever might succeed.

September can't come soon enough.

 

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”But the United States refused the group’s surrender, vowing to shatter the Taliban’s influence in every corner of the country.” NYTimes article today.

“Taliban leaders say Americans have all the clocks, but they have all the time.” NYTimes op-Ed today.

Yeah, that W, he sure was real smart.

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On 4/14/2021 at 8:47 PM, Left Shift said:

The United States is largely a collection of tribal villages/clans that live adjacent to one another but only because they were born there.  Much like Serbian/Croatians/Czechs/Slovaks:  "Stay out of my valley.  We remember what you did in 1861."   The central government is there only to provide services to each tribe, as long as each tribe thinks they are getting the better deal.

FTFY...

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On 4/14/2021 at 10:57 PM, Olsonist said:

Like Vietnam, it's not clear how we could have fucked things up worse.

Maybe if we just stay and engage in terrorism and right wing welfare a few months longer, that will make things better.

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10 hours ago, Olsonist said:
The tree of Fakebertarianism must be refreshed from time to time with the blaming of the liberals.

Hey, just because they shoot themselves in the foot, that doesn't make it their OWN fault y'know

- DSK

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On 4/13/2021 at 2:30 PM, 3to1 said:

it's sad how the Taliban has that country by the balls, so many good, innocent people will go through bloody hell as a result. if our corporate henchmen, i.e. our military, can prevent some of that with a presence, isn't that more than worthy of consideration?

 

 

On 4/13/2021 at 3:49 PM, 3to1 said:

yea, I guess I don't have much of anything to question any of that apart from the civilian/innocents welfare angle.

I'm ignorant to the details, what's up with raytheon in Afghanistan? are the kunts being dirty birdies?

No surprise here. What an idiot.  We’ve been there 20 years and you still don’t know what’s going on. 

Youre a joke. 

 

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6 minutes ago, chum said:

 

No surprise here. What an idiot.  We’ve been there 20 years and you still don’t know what’s going on. 

Youre a joke. 

 

stfu right-winger, it's a good thing I'm not the 'murican ambassador to Afghanistan.

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You guys are pretty soft on your resident left wing village idiot, I’m touched by the attempts to bring him up to speed.

I think you have just excused yourself from further comment on the subject of Afghanistan.

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chum get's a gold fkn' STAR 'cause he knows how to click on those interwebs articles that makes him an automatic learned insider on all things Afghanistan.

damn bitch, how can I compete with that??

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8 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:
18 hours ago, Olsonist said:
The tree of Fakebertarianism must be refreshed from time to time with the blaming of the liberals.

Hey, just because they shoot themselves in the foot, that doesn't make it their OWN fault y'know

- DSK

Just because you guys are fine with prolonging our terrorism and right wing welfare over there doesn't mean I have to be.

I still think we should leave, as I have since about the time the current soldiers over there were born. Nothing is to be gained by staying a few more months, but if that's the TeamD idea, I guess you have to support it. I don't.

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30 minutes ago, Excoded Tom said:

Just because you guys are fine with prolonging our terrorism and right wing welfare over there doesn't mean I have to be.

I still think we should leave, as I have since about the time the current soldiers over there were born. Nothing is to be gained by staying a few more months, but if that's the TeamD idea, I guess you have to support it. I don't.

BLAM!!

Another round right thru the ol' metatarsal. Bummer. Better reload

When/where did I say either 1- the "the Democrat agenda" (as if they were organized enough to even have one) is the best plan OR 2- we should stay longer in Afghanistan?

- DSK

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2 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

When/where did I say either 1- the "the Democrat agenda" (as if they were organized enough to even have one) is the best plan OR 2- we should stay longer in Afghanistan?

You seemed in the post I quoted to be supporting Olsonist's support of Biden's delay in withdrawing.

But maybe that was a mistaken impression.

Do you prefer Biden's withdrawal date or Trump's?

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1 minute ago, Excoded Tom said:

You seemed in the post I quoted to be supporting Olsonist's support of Biden's delay in withdrawing.

But maybe that was a mistaken impression.

Do you prefer Biden's withdrawal date or Trump's?

I would prefer ~17 years ago

You "coming out" as RWNJ parrot, maybe inspired by your hero Boothie? Gotta be Trump or nothing?

Hate is not good for you. Nor is dumb, reactionary, shallow, only-2-possibility, type thinking (if you call it that)

- DSK

 

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9 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

I would prefer ~17 years ago

You "coming out" as RWNJ parrot, maybe inspired by your hero Boothie? Gotta be Trump or nothing?

Hate is not good for you. Nor is dumb, reactionary, shallow, only-2-possibility, type thinking (if you call it that)

- DSK

 

I'd prefer going back in time to withdraw a bit earlier than your 17 year deadline.

However, since we lack time travel, there are only a couple of viable options.

Sticking to reality this time, do you prefer Biden's withdrawal date or Trump's?

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