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1 hour ago, Dolphin65 said:

Who knows if TR hull shape provided less drag? BTW Some people thought that it increases performance taking advantage from the ground-effect (see the Ekranoplan), maybe @MaxHugen can throw two cents on this

The Ekranoplan is a surface effect craft, also referred to as "Wing-In-Ground" (WIG) craft. These utilise extra lift when a wing is in close proximity to a surface. See Wikipedia for a good description, or search for "Caspian Sea Monster" on YouTube for some interesting videos.

However, as the AC75s have a limited amount of righting moment from boat mass, the last thing a designer would want is for the hull to provide lift.

As for the drag from the various hull shapes, I doubt we'll ever get any reliable info on how they compare, as this can only be approximated from some complex CFD calcs, I think.

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Prada is willing to challenge again. Alla prossima volta!

There is so much here that wrong with your comments. Firstly, you clearly do not know Auckland weather traits - it does not have clockwork reliability in the weather it receives. It is not a Cont

Inteview to Gilberto Nobili https://www.formulapassion.it/manifestomotore/parliamone-con/gilberto-nobili-racconta-luna-rossa-new-zealand-coppa-america-557728.html Translated with Googl

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And I still doubt (may be wrong) you can have any relevant surface effect at liftoff speed (under 20Kn) from a such small surface. 
What Max Sirena told about the "bounce trick" TR use to lift off in marginal speed sounds more likely. 
Even in some early videos you had the impression that TR liftoff was less smooth than the one of other boats; more like a "digital" thing ( on/off ) than a progressive one. Talking ultra-low wind range, here.
TR bow design may have actually optimized for this, and to funnel air flux in the lower mainsail area.

Even with an apparently slightly bigger front section, LR hull seemed more aerodynamic, cleaner and better smoothed out. We'll never actually know...

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48 minutes ago, Thewas said:

And I still doubt (may be wrong) you can have any relevant surface effect at liftoff speed (under 20Kn) from a such small surface. 
What Max Sirena told about the "bounce trick" TR use to lift off in marginal speed sounds more likely. 
Even in some early videos you had the impression that TR liftoff was less smooth than the one of other boats; more like a "digital" thing ( on/off ) than a progressive one. Talking ultra-low wind range, here.
TR bow design may have actually optimized for this, and to funnel air flux in the lower mainsail area.

Even with an apparently slightly bigger front section, LR hull seemed more aerodynamic, cleaner and better smoothed out. We'll never actually know...

There was an excellent side-on video of NZ taking off, from just a couple of knots to foiling. Wish I'd bookmarked it. :(

The boat looked really level throughout the maneuver, and as the boat picked up a bit of speed, you could see the the hull rise slightly, probably just on it's bustle at this point.

As the bustle cleared the surface, the boat was still level.  I didn't see the "bounce" that Max spoke of, which is why I'd like to re-watch the video.

With the hull now clear of the water by maybe 300-500mm, it accelerated very quickly, and as speed increased you could see the boat start to pitch bow down, which reduces the foil AoA, from it's initial AoI (~2°).

Don't know the wind speed though, but it was certainly better than "marginal".

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2 hours ago, MaxHugen said:

As the bustle cleared the surface, the boat was still level.  I didn't see the "bounce" that Max spoke of, which is why I'd like to re-watch the video.

Not completely sure, but to me sounded like Max was speaking of marginal conditions only.

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3 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Luna Rossa taking their two AC75 Class Boats back to Cagliari suggest to me that there might be an Event in Europe at some Point next year. If there had been a 2022 AC in November in Auckland as Bruno Trouble claimed at least one of their Boats would have stayed in Auckland.

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6 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

If there had been a 2022 AC in November in Auckland as Bruno Trouble claimed at least one of their Boats would have stayed in Auckland.

It’s a very encouraging piece but LR (like they and Ineos did) could fly boats back down there. 

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4 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

It’s a very encouraging piece but LR (like they and Ineos did) could fly boats back down there. 

Yes, they could! But consider this: The Ocean Race formerly known as VOR starts in October 2022 and has a Stopover in Auckland (likely March 2023) so I think it's highly unlikely Auck will host a Cup Match in November 2022 as Trouble claims followed by TOR Stopover in March.

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11 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Yes, they could! But consider this: The Ocean Race formerly known as VOR starts in October 2022 and has a Stopover in Auckland (likely March 2023) so I think it's highly unlikely Auck will host a Cup Match in November 2022 as Trouble claims followed by TOR Stopover in March.

March is too late in Auckland, a Match should be held in conditions more similar to the Challenger series, to make it fairer. 
 

Foilers falling off their foils f’cked up two races and several starts. The wind was not fresh enough for the nonsensical foil setup rules. 
 

I think they will take that lesson and make things better in the aftermath. 

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23 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

March is too late in Auckland, a Match should be held in conditions more similar to the Challenger series, to make it fairer. 
 

Foilers falling off their foils f’cked up two races and several starts. The wind was not fresh enough for the nonsensical foil setup rules. 
 

I think they will take that lesson and make things better in the aftermath. 

There is so much here that wrong with your comments.

Firstly, you clearly do not know Auckland weather traits - it does not have clockwork reliability in the weather it receives. It is not a Continental Land Mass with steadily changing sea and land temperatures that can produce regular seabreeze conditions. It is a tiny ribbon of an Island swept by whatever Mother Nature throws at it.

Is it a coincidence that the highly variable nature of the conditions has raised a sailing population that is per capita more sucessful than virtually any Nation you choose to compare it to, and sought after by sailing teams wherever it is permitted?

Fairness of any competion - particularly the AC, is driven completely by the rules that the competeion is held under - NOT by the weather. Do not conflate the 2 issues. Every team knew the wind range - and designed accordingly.

Now that a cycle has passed - and with the benefit of hindsight - each of these teams can better ajudge their choices and where their efforts were lacking. Non more so that American Magic.......

The race where both boats each fell off their foils was one of the most captivating races that the whole season had to offer. Just because your proxy team did not prevail does not alter that fact.

You talk about "nonsensical foil set up rules" but fail to recognise how much more of a chequebook exercise this whole event would become - if teams could plug and play a set of foils for every 4 knot lift in wind speeds....... 

Better to allow the teams to endure the agony of having to design an all-round set of foils and choose where to be in the design space or wind range. Large multi team competition is what we all desire; so controlling the cost of cost of entry yet keeping the design space open is the aim - instead of making the game so expensive just to appease the likes of you is the Nonsensical part........

Start box dimensions, entry differentials (is 10 secs fair?) and duration of pre-start can all be played with. As can width of course, separation of Windward and Leeward marks laterally. I personally find it strange that Bow sprits are enforced yet Code Zero's were never seen. A Rule tweek to insist on Code Zero's on board and deployable without Crew members needing to go on the foredeck might lead to both widened performance curves, as well as developing useful trickle down technology for the performance shorthanded racing and cruising markets......

But dont whinge about the few loose ends that need tidying up as if the whole show was broken and kaput. It is unbecoming and not representative. Considering the fucked up state that the world is in, it is amazing that we even had a AC cycle. Thank you NZ for giving us something to distract us, marvel at, and give us hope that we will all soon be able to travel, sail and do what we want.

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3 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

March is too late in Auckland, a Match should be held in conditions more similar to the Challenger series, to make it fairer. 
 

Foilers falling off their foils f’cked up two races and several starts. The wind was not fresh enough for the nonsensical foil setup rules. 
 

I think they will take that lesson and make things better in the aftermath. 

April is better, because that’s when Autumn winds come in.  However what ever date you pick, it  will still be a lottery for wind. 

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Just spent the Easter weekend with the family in Wellington. Wellington would be an absolutely spectacular venue for the AC. Arguably more of a sailing stadium/ amphitheatre than any of the Auckland courses were, and more consistent for breeze. They'd have to start again for infrastructure I guess, but there seems to be plenty of usable wharf area on the Wellington waterfront.

I think if the government is going to invest huge money into retaining the Cup hosting rights here, they should think about upgrading Wellington infrastructure and holding it there.

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2 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Just spent the Easter weekend with the family in Wellington. Wellington would be an absolutely spectacular venue for the AC. Arguably more of a sailing stadium/ amphitheatre than any of the Auckland courses were, and more consistent for breeze. They'd have to start again for infrastructure I guess, but there seems to be plenty of usable wharf area on the Wellington waterfront.

I think if the government is going to invest huge money into retaining the Cup hosting rights here, they should think about upgrading Wellington infrastructure and holding it there.

Awesome make the upper wind limit 60kts!

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2 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Just spent the Easter weekend with the family in Wellington. Wellington would be an absolutely spectacular venue for the AC. Arguably more of a sailing stadium/ amphitheatre than any of the Auckland courses were, and more consistent for breeze. They'd have to start again for infrastructure I guess, but there seems to be plenty of usable wharf area on the Wellington waterfront.

I think if the government is going to invest huge money into retaining the Cup hosting rights here, they should think about upgrading Wellington infrastructure and holding it there.

Never happen sadly.

Firstly ETNZ are based in Auckland, secondly the investment in infrastructure has already been made and thirdly they'd have to raise the wind limit to Force 5.

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3 minutes ago, jaysper said:

thirdly they'd have to raise the wind limit to Force 5.

that could be very interesting! :D

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13 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Never happen sadly.

Firstly ETNZ are based in Auckland, secondly the investment in infrastructure has already been made and thirdly they'd have to raise the wind limit to Force 5.

We were staying out at Island Bay, on the South coast, and on Sunday, it was FRESH. Some pretty stiff breeze. But out at Petone, it was pretty light. Its pretty much always Fresh out on the South coast, around the Airport, and up on the hills, but out in the harbour, its pretty sheltered so the winds don't really get that stiff so it may actually be okay if they set a course in the harbour.

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There was once a demo circuit of Americas cup boat or boats that went around NZ.

They were in Wellington and as seen from TV the crew on the boat suddenly went crazy pulling sails down and generally panicking. 5 minutes later a southerly hit them and without sails or anything they were flattened.

I was born there and a still wind is still, but a light wind is 40knts from the NW and that is 60% of the time.

That sailing will never happen other than in atomically hardened craft.

Regarding foil changing and the 4 days before sailing rules etc. they can change that stuff and it would open the wind range to 5knts to 35knts so no gaps at all and no month is out of the question. I like it!!

  

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21 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Yes, they could! But consider this: The Ocean Race formerly known as VOR starts in October 2022 and has a Stopover in Auckland (likely March 2023) so I think it's highly unlikely Auck will host a Cup Match in November 2022 as Trouble claims followed by TOR Stopover in March.

The VOR fleet will be accommodated in Auckland somewhere somehow, but it would never push aside an America’s cup taking place. 

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14 hours ago, jaysper said:

Never happen sadly.

Firstly ETNZ are based in Auckland, secondly the investment in infrastructure has already been made and thirdly they'd have to raise the wind limit to Force 5.

Racing in Wellington would be awesome but I agree it would never happen. 

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15 hours ago, Forourselves said:

We were staying out at Island Bay, on the South coast, and on Sunday, it was FRESH. Some pretty stiff breeze. But out at Petone, it was pretty light. Its pretty much always Fresh out on the South coast, around the Airport, and up on the hills, but out in the harbour, its pretty sheltered so the winds don't really get that stiff so it may actually be okay if they set a course in the harbour.

Honestly nope.

Wellington harbour absolutely gets some days  suitable for AC75s, but fuck all compared to the land of Jaffa.

The cup final would take a month or more.

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On 4/3/2021 at 8:15 PM, MaxHugen said:

There was an excellent side-on video of NZ taking off, from just a couple of knots to foiling. Wish I'd bookmarked it. :(

GMR video

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11 minutes ago, MrBump said:

GMR video

Thanks.  Not the video I recall, which showed the entire take-off from the side, but good one nevertheless. :)

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4 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Hmm didn't work out too well for Mercedes and INEOS. Hope LR don't take a step backwards.

You are utterly insufferable. 
the same super fan boi logic works for everyone that has ever sponsored an AC team and not won it. 

where was it a step backwards for INEOS? Tell us which area the involvement of Mercedes harmed the INEOS program? Because that’s what you are saying happened and you don’t want Prada to suffer the same fate.

rampant one eyed kiwi logic at it again. 

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After the impressive show of this LR campaign I think everybody would be pretty happy to see his brand linked to Luna Rossa, even Ferrari. 
And, BTW, is you're supposed to put the best your country can offer into the AC ("competition between nations") well, Ferrari has been, in my opinion, the elephant in the LR room. Or outside the room, in AC36.

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What percentage of red prevents winning? And do we just count the hull?m4395_crop169014_1024x576_proportional_1605880318D800.jpg

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5 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

You are utterly insufferable. 
the same super fan boi logic works for everyone that has ever sponsored an AC team and not won it. 

where was it a step backwards for INEOS? Tell us which area the involvement of Mercedes harmed the INEOS program? Because that’s what you are saying happened and you don’t want Prada to suffer the same fate.

rampant one eyed kiwi logic at it again. 

Listen to the commentary of Ken Read during the final race of the Prada Cup Final. Even he saw it. Like he said, LR built a boat, where INEOS was more reminiscent of a something out of Formula 1. Hull wise it was "very different". It was also a widely known fact that the INEOS foils were designed by the Mercedes F1 team. It was stated multiple times during the ACWS. 

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22 hours ago, Dolphin65 said:

Wasn't Mercedes who developed the allegedly best hydraulics system in AC36?

I also heard that, at some point. Actually if, as they claimed, they never went on hydro power shortage that was quite a big thing. 
Pretty sure hydraulics are going to be the biggest leap forward in the B3 of any team.

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On 4/13/2021 at 7:55 PM, Forourselves said:

Listen to the commentary of Ken Read during the final race of the Prada Cup Final. Even he saw it. Like he said, LR built a boat, where INEOS was more reminiscent of a something out of Formula 1. Hull wise it was "very different". It was also a widely known fact that the INEOS foils were designed by the Mercedes F1 team. It was stated multiple times during the ACWS. 

Ken Read is STUPID - Period! Without the help of Mercedes ITUK would not have made the Prada Cup Final, that's a fact!

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12 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Ken Read is STUPID - Period! Without the help of Mercedes ITUK would not have made the Prada Cup Final, that's a fact!

The only problem with this statement is that I know Ken Read and he is not stupid.

So then I examined the two posts to try and understand what it was you are disagreeing or agreeing with.

4 selves: " Ineos was reminiscent of Formula 1....foils were designed by Mercedes"

Dg : "Stupid...without help of Mercedes ITUK would not have made the Prada Final"

Let me see if I have this right.

4 Selves is arguing that Mercedes had a significant impact on the design of Ineos.

Dg , strongly disagrees and argues instead that Mercedes had a significant impact on the design of Ineos

 

Most disagree with both of you, because they believe that Mercedes had a significant impact on the design of Ineos.  

Personally I would say that we dont know how much impact Mercedes had on the design of Ineos but in parts I suspect it was meaningful.

 

 

 

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@Mambo Kings

Mercedes definitly helped INEOS TEAM UK turn their dismal Christmas Regatta around.

Nick Holroyd is a CLOWN and should immediatedly summit his Resignation because he created that "Dog of a Boat".

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29 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

@Mambo Kings

Mercedes definitly helped INEOS TEAM UK turn their dismal Christmas Regatta around.

Nick Holroyd is a CLOWN and should immediatedly summit his Resignation because he created that "Dog of a Boat".

Most of us think you are an utter cretin already are you trying to convince the remaining 5% 

 

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56 minutes ago, Mambo Kings said:

The only problem with this statement is that I know Ken Read and he is not stupid.

So then I examined the two posts to try and understand what it was you are disagreeing or agreeing with.

4 selves: " Ineos was reminiscent of Formula 1....foils were designed by Mercedes"

Dg : "Stupid...without help of Mercedes ITUK would not have made the Prada Final"

Let me see if I have this right.

4 Selves is arguing that Mercedes had a significant impact on the design of Ineos.

Dg , strongly disagrees and argues instead that Mercedes had a significant impact on the design of Ineos

 

Most disagree with both of you, because they believe that Mercedes had a significant impact on the design of Ineos.  

Personally I would say that we dont know how much impact Mercedes had on the design of Ineos but in parts I suspect it was meaningful.

 

 

 

https://www.ineosteamuk.com/en/articles/299_Pushing-to-the-leading-edge-of-design-with-Mercedes-F1-Applied-Science.html

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52 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

And I bet you think the W foils were first used in NZ too.. 

Reality is they were first used on B1 in the Solent before they packed up for NZ 

dont believe all the PR even if it fits your narrative 

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1 hour ago, JALhazmat said:

And I bet you think the W foils were first used in NZ too.. 

Reality is they were first used on B1 in the Solent before they packed up for NZ 

dont believe all the PR even if it fits your narrative 

And they were shit then, and they were shit in Auckland. Either way, they were shit. The first boat was a dog, and the second wasn’t much better. 

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On 4/13/2021 at 10:14 PM, Dolphin65 said:

Wasn't Mercedes who developed the allegedly best hydraulics system in AC36?

Just discovered that the base hydraulics system for all teams has been developed by the Italian Cariboni. See the automatically translated article here: https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.giornaledellavela.com%2F2021%2F04%2F10%2Fcariboni-luna-rossa&sandbox=1

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8 hours ago, Forourselves said:

And they were shit then, and they were shit in Auckland. Either way, they were shit. The first boat was a dog, and the second wasn’t much better. 

Bore off. 

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3 hours ago, Dolphin65 said:

Just discovered that the base hydraulics system for all teams has been developed by the Italian Cariboni. See the automatically translated article here: https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.giornaledellavela.com%2F2021%2F04%2F10%2Fcariboni-luna-rossa&sandbox=1

Interesting article, thanks for posting! ;)

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9 hours ago, Forourselves said:

And they were shit then, and they were shit in Auckland. Either way, they were shit. The first boat was a dog, and the second wasn’t much better. 

I don’t think that the Brits B2 boat was a dog. I think the boom they were using was not the best solution. Nor was their foils the best either. If you put a boomless solution like the Italians and better foils you would have a good boat. A world better no, but certainly not a dog.

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On 4/13/2021 at 7:32 PM, strider470 said:

I don’t think F1 teams add much to America’s cup teams. Aerodynamic and hydrodynamic are so different at high speed. There’s no cavitation and ventilation in F1 racing, yet both these factors are super important in the America’s Cup. Also water doesn’t compress and air does. High speed hydrodynamic is a specialized area best worked on by experts in that field....ie not F1 teams 

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3 hours ago, mako23 said:

I don’t think F1 teams add much to America’s cup teams. Aerodynamic and hydrodynamic are so different at high speed. There’s no cavitation and ventilation in F1 racing, yet both these factors are super important in the America’s Cup. Also water doesn’t compress and air does. High speed hydrodynamic is a specialized area best worked on by experts in that field....ie not F1 teams 

Actually, I think it's more of a marketing move, in case. Ferrari is one of the excellences of Made in Italy. The Agnelli family, owners of the FIAT group, Ferrari, Juventus etc.., has always been involved in sailing and they have a long history in the AC, being behind the first Italian challenge ever, Azzurra 1983.

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7 hours ago, strider470 said:

Actually, I think it's more of a marketing move, in case. Ferrari is one of the excellences of Made in Italy. The Agnelli family, owners of the FIAT group, Ferrari, Juventus etc.., has always been involved in sailing and they have a long history in the AC, being behind the first Italian challenge ever, Azzurra 1983.

In the case of LR I agree, but I do think that Ineos went down that rabbit hole with predictable results. Apart from ETNZ, LR must have the biggest amount of intellectual capital. It was no surprise to me that they won the Prada cup in a convincing manner. If they keep the same design team, I’m expecting LR to be the strongest contender in the next cup. 

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On 4/15/2021 at 9:08 AM, JALhazmat said:

Most of us think you are an utter cretin already are you trying to convince the remaining 5% 

 

You sure it's as much as 5%?

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52 minutes ago, Woolfy said:

You sure it's as much as 5%?

I was allowing 4% to cover forouselves?steve based on volume of posting and kindred spirt of one eyed support so yeah 1% is about right ;)

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Luna Rossa (the boat) was recently interviewed about the rumoured eventuality of a 1 - 1 Match between xTNZ and INEOS.

We have the picture with the answer embedded :D :D :D

1441874423_ti.jpg.25ed0c1d88a133484ab723d095a50921.jpg

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10 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

I was allowing 4% to cover forouselves?steve based on volume of posting and kindred spirt of one eyed support so yeah 1% is about right ;)

Funny how you think you speak for most on here lol

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8 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Funny how you think you speak for most on here lol

It’s ok Steve, we all know the real voice of the forum is yours. 
 

 

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On 4/15/2021 at 12:17 PM, mako23 said:

I don’t think F1 teams add much to America’s cup teams. Aerodynamic and hydrodynamic are so different at high speed. There’s no cavitation and ventilation in F1 racing, yet both these factors are super important in the America’s Cup. Also water doesn’t compress and air does. High speed hydrodynamic is a specialized area best worked on by experts in that field....ie not F1 teams 

I lost track of it, but few months ago I'm pretty sure I read  that MercedesF1 helped INEOS optimizing the hydro power transfer/storage. And they ended up with two grinder less than the other teams.
I still think F1 teams have quite some good tool for evaluating fluid dynamics and, on top of everything else, a solid attitude toward marginal gain.
Due to the speeds of the AC75s a marginal gain can easily add a knot of boatspeed. 

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1 hour ago, Thewas said:

I lost track of it, but few months ago I'm pretty sure I read  that MercedesF1 helped INEOS optimizing the hydro power transfer/storage. And they ended up with two grinder less than the other teams.
I still think F1 teams have quite some good tool for evaluating fluid dynamics and, on top of everything else, a solid attitude toward marginal gain.
Due to the speeds of the AC75s a marginal gain can easily add a knot of boatspeed. 

You make a good point about the Grinders but I suspect they have no tools in regards to fluid dynamics and especially fluid dynamics at high speed. The difference between water and air at high speed is so great, air CFD is useless. 
I would not call Ineos a dog but it was probably the slowest boat in the fleet. If AM Magic was sailed by the Prada or ETNZ crew there would of been a different result. 
 

So for all the effort of Mercedes technical staff they produced a slowish boat compared to the rest of the fleet. In the end results speak the loudest 

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Out of left field I had a crazy idea this weekend.   Why wait for NZ? Why be bound by the DoG.  Prada should host a Prada Cup in Italy next summer and challenge AM, with an invitation to any other AC75 teams to attend.

No reason why the Prada Cup could not be hosted on an annual basis. In Cup years, it would be the challenger series. In off years it would be the single most important even on a nascent AC75 circuit.

Host in Sardinia, puerto cervo with all the prestigious attractions for billionaires?

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1 hour ago, mako23 said:

You make a good point about the Grinders but I suspect they have no tools in regards to fluid dynamics and especially fluid dynamics at high speed. The difference between water and air at high speed is so great, air CFD is useless. 
I would not call Ineos a dog but it was probably the slowest boat in the fleet. If AM Magic was sailed by the Prada or ETNZ crew there would of been a different result. 
 

So for all the effort of Mercedes technical staff they produced a slowish boat compared to the rest of the fleet. In the end results speak the loudest 

Merc came in late, after B1 launch with B2 committed. They had to set up a whole new manufacturing and design capability at Ineos. 

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9 hours ago, chesirecat said:

Merc came in late, after B1 launch with B2 committed. They had to set up a whole new manufacturing and design capability at Ineos. 

I have no doubt that Merc have outstanding engineering skills and I’m sure if involved again they will a better job than before. I am not disparaging Mercs skill set. In the field they specialize in there the best in the world. Unfortunately for them that skill set doesn’t include high speed hydrodynamics. High speed aerodynamic skill set  is of no use for for high speed hydrodynamics. 

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The Italian team is back home. One by one also the sailing team left New Zealand towards Italy. The last to leave was Max Sirena, yesterday. While still waiting for an official statement from Patrizio Bertelli regarding the participation in the next edition of the Cup, the trophies won by Luna Rossa arrived in Italy too.

rientro.thumb.jpg.bbfda77d05684626fe9264c263eef67b.jpg

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On 4/13/2021 at 4:14 PM, Dolphin65 said:

Wasn't Mercedes who developed the allegedly best hydraulics system in AC36?

but did they ever figure out a hydraulic system for a convertible top in a car?

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On 4/18/2021 at 1:10 AM, chesirecat said:

Merc came in late, after B1 launch with B2 committed. They had to set up a whole new manufacturing and design capability at Ineos. 

Well, if that's the case my assumption on the 6 grinders trick is likely wrong...
But I still think that the mindset that can be brought from a competition where 30 seconds after a 250km race is considered a disaster can still be pretty useful.
We are, with the AC75, in the F1 "forgiveness" area for mistakes. Meaning zero.

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3 hours ago, Bump-n-Grind said:

but did they ever figure out a hydraulic system for a convertible top in a car?

Don't know exactly, however, according to Freddy Carr, who is bound to a confidentiality agreement and could not reveal any detail about how the system works, it did make things much easier for the grinders

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39 minutes ago, Dolphin65 said:

Don't know exactly, however, according to Freddy Carr, who is bound to a confidentiality agreement and could not reveal any detail about how the system works, it did make things much easier for the grinders

I dont care about any of that, I want the top of my  500SL  to  go up and down. those  hydraulics don't work for shit.  LOL

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Hadn't heard Max openly admit Alinghi was seeking CoR before? At least thats how I hear what he says?

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On 4/15/2021 at 6:01 PM, Dolphin65 said:

Just discovered that the base hydraulics system for all teams has been developed by the Italian Cariboni. See the automatically translated article here: https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.giornaledellavela.com%2F2021%2F04%2F10%2Fcariboni-luna-rossa&sandbox=1

The 1-design hydraulic system for the foil arms was all Cariboni free-supply with the arms. LR were in charge of the arms design which faailed and forced ETNZ to become involved - this costs for this rescue by ETNZ was one of the issues which ruptured the ETNZ-LR relationship...

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3 hours ago, Indio said:

The 1-design hydraulic system for the foil arms was all Cariboni free-supply with the arms. LR were in charge of the arms design which faailed and forced ETNZ to become involved - this costs for this rescue by ETNZ was one of the issues which ruptured the ETNZ-LR relationship...

It would be good for the sport if ETNZ and LR could settle their differences. With GD playing a less dominant role this might be possible. 
 

Can’t blame GD if he did retire....he’s challenged and defended successfully. He won the whitbread and more importantly removed himself from the shadow of Peter Blake. I also suspect he’s left the syndicate in far better shape, than the shambles that Peter Blake created when leaving ETNZ. 

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On 4/26/2021 at 1:09 AM, Indio said:

The 1-design hydraulic system for the foil arms was all Cariboni free-supply with the arms. LR were in charge of the arms design which faailed and forced ETNZ to become involved - this costs for this rescue by ETNZ was one of the issues which ruptured the ETNZ-LR relationship...

Source?

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2 hours ago, Dolphin65 said:

Source?

There was a bunch of videos and statements put out by the teams over the course of the build up, here a ok ish summary https://www.sail-world.com/news/217742/Americas-Cup-Foil-Arm-explodes-in-test-Video

The later arms were engineered by LR and ETNZ together alongside a working group of the challengers, built by Persico.

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1 hour ago, Dolphin65 said:

From that article as translated:

Quote

Thus, a new prototype was built, the generation 2 arm. This, no longer hollow, but solid, made up of stacked and glued carbon plates and then laminated with a skin that acts as a containment. Stiffness, resistance and robustness, relaxing the initial target of lightness (the 2 weighs more than 1, being full and not hollow). “The structure passed all the tests and broke at a load of 310%, confirming the maximum target foreseen by the project). Re-designed, built, tested, broken in the footsteps of the former. But this time the Luna Rossa Design Team and the extended task force of Pure Design & Engineering and Beltrando - there were representatives of the Challenger of record, Defender and the challenging teams - uncorked the bottle and celebrated.

When they say "extended task force" there, they mean the people who stepped in from ETNZ to help get the arms done, Pure Design & Engineering in particular is an NZ company with involvement with ETNZ
 

The reason for all the teams being there to pop the cork was they were worried by the first test results.

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Yeah, but it also says 

Quote

 

"Do you remember? Some time ago there was talk of the prototype that had crashed and someone had raised an eyelash, assuming the failure. Franceschetti and company, but also Persico, were silent. They suffered the rumors. A 3D comparison of the first generation foil arm with hollow section and the second one with solid section

The goal

In reality, the arm had to break, to make it possible to understand the load limit. Let's go into a little more detail. Under normal conditions, sailing in a straight line, the boom of the boat is subjected at its end to a load of 9 tons. Let's say the weight of nine to ten medium cars? As the boat maneuvers, the force system naturally changes. “We have calculated a service limit load target equal to 180% of ordinary service conditions. And a maximum breaking load of 300% (27 tons) ”, explains Franceschetti.

Thus, the generation 1 arm broke on a load just below the 200% threshold, the minimum tensile strength target accepted by the magne rules agreed by the teams. In short, he could also be promoted. "But we wanted to take wider safety margins".

 

 

 

 

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