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The AC 37 has started, news and rumours


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5 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

You mean the club that presented the original trophy and hosted the race that awarded that trophy to the syndicate who gifted it as the AC. 

Good luck with that!

 

No joke mate, Ehman is questioning their legitimacy despite them being accepted as Challenger previously first by the Golden Gate Yacht Club for AC35 in Bermuda and then by the Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron for AC36 in Auckland. This is just very poor by Ehman because he's frightened by a possible 1 - 1 Challenge next year and his beloved American Magic Team didn't do as well as he hoped for during AC36.

So, he's taking it out on someone else in the hope he can score some Points!

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I’m not calling this out for the sake of ostracizing you, nor to play PC police on a forum that is notorious for the opposite of that. I could just hit ignore, delete or whatever. I’m calling this out

Hilarious to watch Kiwis who've been around since AC35 twist themselves into intellectual pretzels to give ETNZ a pass on what they screamed bloody murder about when Oracle did it. Even Oracle di

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20 minutes ago, idontwan2know said:

who has the power

And right THERE is the problem.

Formula 1 has a governing body, Football has a governing body, Athletics has a governing body.

Despite being utterly corrupt, they at least are able to plot out a long term and stable vision for their respective sports.

Short of some how magically modifying the DoG and creating an all encompassing governing body, the AC is and will always been (roughly) what it is.

Quite frankly if this "magic" was somehow achieved, I think the interest in AC would wane pretty quick as it transformed into just another event.

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@jaysper

The Problem is not that AC hasn't a Governing Body, it shouldn't have.

The real Problem is that the AC goes bascially dark after one Event ends. There should be continuous Content on the Website, on the Social Channels, etc. That's why people lose interest not because it doesn't have a Governing Body.

Remember: It took the new Trustee AGES to upload Full Broadcasts from AC34 and AC35. Compare that to the YT Channels of the Tour de France, Olympics, F1,....there is always new content. The F1 YT showed Full Races dating back to 1999 or 1998 for example.

All what we have when in comes to Valencia 2007, which many deemed as one of the most successful Cup Cycles in the modern aera is 26 Minute Highlight Clips. I've asked the AC Webteam to put forward Full Races for AC32, they did not listen.

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11 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

No joke mate, Ehman is questioning their legitimacy despite them being accepted as Challenger previously first by the Golden Gate Yacht Club for AC35 in Bermuda and then by the Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron for AC36 in Auckland. This is just very poor by Ehman because he's frightened by a possible 1 - 1 Challenge next year and his beloved American Magic Team didn't do as well as he hoped for during AC36.

So, he's taking it out on someone else in the hope he can score some Points!

Not forgetting the 1958 challenge by RYS and the 12 meter Sceptre......This was the first AC in 20 years which got the whole thing going again.  IF RYS had not challenged in 1958, who knows what dusty closet the cup might have ended up in.

Prior to the 1958 challenge,  challenges for the cup had been accepted from RYS at least 5 times by my count

Surely one of the most legit challengers in the history of the cup.

 

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2 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

@jaysper

The Problem is not that AC hasn't a Governing Body, it shouldn't have.

The real Problem is that the AC goes bascially dark after one Event ends. There should be continuous Content on the Website, on the Social Channels, etc. That's why people lose interest not because it doesn't have a Governing Body.

Remember: It took the new Trustee AGES to upload Full Broadcasts from AC34 and AC35. Compare that to the YT Channels of the Tour de France, Olympics, F1,....there is always new content. The F1 YT showed Full Races dating back to 1999 or 1998 for example.

All what we have when in comes to Valencia 2007, which many deemed as one of the most successful Cup Cycles in the modern aera is 26 Minute Highlight Clips. I've asked the AC Webteam to put forward Full Races for AC32, they did not listen.

Its because it doesn't have an enduring entity (call it a governing body or whatever) that it goes dark.

So you can want all that other stuff, but it aint gonna happen without such a body (not that I'm spruiking for it).

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10 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

Not forgetting the 1958 challenge by RYS and the 12 meter Sceptre......This was the first AC in 20 years which got the whole thing going again.  IF RYS had not challenged in 1958, who knows what dusty closet the cup might have ended up in.

Prior to the 1958 challenge,  challenges for the cup had been accepted from RYS at least 5 times by my count

Surely one of the most legit challengers in the history of the cup.

 

Absolutely! I am definitly hitting back at Ehman before this gets any big legs!

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But why, so flawed from the very beginning, with the most ancient and outdated set of rules (still in use) ever written for a sporting event, is the America's Cup so successful, edition after edition, after almost 200 years? Let's be honest, would we prefer a Premier League or a Serie A of sailing? I wouldn't. The only modification to the Deed of Gift should be to adapt its language to our times, to keep the original intent of the people who donated the Cup to the following generations. And not to give more power to the companies that want to control it, on the contrary, any amendment should be made to give them less of that power. The America's Cup is a self-regulating entity, and the Deed of Gift will always win.

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19 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Its because it doesn't have an enduring entity (call it a governing body or whatever) that it goes dark.

Seems like a group of yacht clubs should create an enduring entity.  It wouldn't change the DoG or have any status to dictate terms.  Rather, it could just be a non-profit tasked with media relations and custodianship of IP.  Call in America's Cup Public Relations, Inc.  or something like that.   Just a handful of employees tasked with getting ahold of old broadcasts and maintaining a central repository of past events. 

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7 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Yes. https://www.rnzys.org.nz/rnzys-accept-notice-of-challenge-for-the-37th-americas-cup/

It includes "It has been agreed the AC75 Class shall remain the class of yacht for the next two America’s Cup cycles, and agreement to this is a condition of entry." Now why would you say that unless you were cooking up something funky?

Of course, what is omitted from that statement is "if we win" 

Why would you put that in? The answer is why wouldn't you? The DoG as well as tradition ensures the new Defender/ CoR decide the rules for the event if and when they win, therefor the DoG ensures what happens in future events, not a mutually agreed protocol between a current Defender and CoR.

All teams are aware of this, which is why it is simply a non issue. Its a bragging right only. The number of teams that agree to enter shows how successful the AC75 concept is, and gives certainty and continuity for the future, if it does continue, it shows how comfortable the teams are with the concept.

Its simply bragging rights.

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4 minutes ago, Blitzkrieg9 said:

Seems like a group of yacht clubs should create an enduring entity.  It wouldn't change the DoG or have any status to dictate terms.  Rather, it could just be a non-profit tasked with media relations and custodianship of IP.  Call in America's Cup Public Relations, Inc.  or something like that.   Just a handful of employees tasked with getting ahold of old broadcasts and maintaining a central repository of past events. 

Yes, this would be really cool:)

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1 minute ago, Forourselves said:

Of course, what is omitted from that statement is "if we win" 

Why would you put that in? The answer is why wouldn't you? The DoG as well as tradition ensures the new Defender/ CoR decide the rules for the event if and when they win, therefor the DoG ensures what happens in future events, not a mutually agreed protocol between a current Defender and CoR.

All teams are aware of this, which is why it is simply a non issue. Its a bragging right only. The number of teams that agree to enter shows how successful the AC75 concept is, and gives certainty and continuity for the future, if it does continue, it shows how comfortable the teams are with the concept.

Its simply bragging rights.

This is actually very well put Four!

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28 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Its because it doesn't have an enduring entity (call it a governing body or whatever) that it goes dark.

So you can want all that other stuff, but it aint gonna happen without such a body (not that I'm spruiking for it).

Not necessarily. Every system is just as good as its personnel.
If you have an a##hole ex-defender that will not hand over the YouTube password, so that the now Defender needs to set up its own channel (and needs to fight for the videos, copyright etc.), then it's a problem.
IIRC, Defender and Challenger(s) sign a contract for the hand-over of the assets. If they don't, well, then they are enormously naïve then do not belong into the shark tank of the AC.

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Provocation: What if the COR is chosen at random among all the challenges that arrived on the first day after the new defender takes the Cup? Let's put all the teams' name in an urn, challengers and defender as well. The team that is picked can name the COR.

Edit: of course this is a sci-fi modified DoG

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4 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

Not necessarily. Every system is just as good as its personnel.
If you have an a##hole ex-defender that will not hand over the YouTube password, so that the now Defender needs to set up its own channel (and needs to fight for the videos, copyright etc.), then it's a problem.
IIRC, Defender and Challenger(s) sign a contract for the hand-over of the assets. If they don't, well, then they are enormously naïve then do not belong into the shark tank of the AC.

Creating something like America's Cup Public Relations Inc. mentioned by @Blitzkrieg9isn't such a bad idea IMO!

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44 minutes ago, Blitzkrieg9 said:

Seems like a group of yacht clubs should create an enduring entity.  It wouldn't change the DoG or have any status to dictate terms.  Rather, it could just be a non-profit tasked with media relations and custodianship of IP.  Call in America's Cup Public Relations, Inc.  or something like that.   Just a handful of employees tasked with getting ahold of old broadcasts and maintaining a central repository of past events. 

https://herreshoff.org/achof/

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4 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

I am not a lawyer.

However, reading the DoG , I dont see why an entrant to AC 37 cannot commit in a side agreement to racing in a certain class of yacht in AC38. They are not "considering a challenge"  (they dont even know if they will be a defender/challenger in AC38), merely agreeing that if they are a future defender or challenger, the match will be in AC75s. A defender has to accept a DoG challenge but the "hip pocket" process has virtually eliminated this so part of the side agreement can be that the hip pocket challenge can only come from a signatory to the side agreement.

 

Because it would not respect : Any organized Yacht Club of a foreign country, incorporated, patented, or licensed by the legislature, admiralty, or other executive department, having for its annual regatta an ocean water course on the sea, or on an arm of the sea, or one which combines both, shall always be entitled to the right of sailing a match of this Cup,

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1 hour ago, dg_sailingfan said:

No joke mate, Ehman is questioning their legitimacy despite them being accepted as Challenger previously first by the Golden Gate Yacht Club for AC35 in Bermuda and then by the Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron for AC36 in Auckland. This is just very poor by Ehman because he's frightened by a possible 1 - 1 Challenge next year and his beloved American Magic Team didn't do as well as he hoped for during AC36.

So, he's taking it out on someone else in the hope he can score some Points!

Didn’t someone a while back bring up the point that INEOS was not the actual RYS but RYS Racing?  I don’t remember what the outcome of that was.  Is a distinction with no difference.

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45 minutes ago, strider470 said:

Provocation: What if the COR is chosen at random among all the challenges that arrived on the first day after the new defender takes the Cup? Let's put all the teams' name in an urn, challengers and defender as well. The team that is picked can name the COR.

Edit: of course this is a sci-fi modified DoG

It's very much more in line with what I suspect to be the original intent of the DoG, which is that anyone could challenge so long as they met the basic requirements (annual regatta on an arm of the sea etc). The hip-pocket challenge creates a massive shift of power in favour of the defender, which I doubt was foreseen when the DoG was written. Ironically, it's predicated on there being more than one challenger; if there's only one challenger, they have the power.

Whilst your proposed change is incredibly unlikely to happen, it would shift the balance of power away from the defender and create an event much more in line with what was originally envisaged.

Since we're in sci-fi land anyway, how about having a vote for the next CoR. Candidate clubs put their name in the pot, payment of $1,000,000 towards your entry fee for the next edition into an escrow account gets you a vote. Probably need a bit of small print to ensure the votes are all from bona fide challengers, but you get the idea...

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15 minutes ago, Dave S said:

It's very much more in line with what I suspect to be the original intent of the DoG, which is that anyone could challenge so long as they met the basic requirements (annual regatta on an arm of the sea etc). The hip-pocket challenge creates a massive shift of power in favour of the defender, which I doubt was foreseen when the DoG was written. Ironically, it's predicated on there being more than one challenger; if there's only one challenger, they have the power.

Whilst your proposed change is incredibly unlikely to happen, it would shift the balance of power away from the defender and create an event much more in line with what was originally envisaged.

Since we're in sci-fi land anyway, how about having a vote for the next CoR. Candidate clubs put their name in the pot, payment of $1,000,000 towards your entry fee for the next edition into an escrow account gets you a vote. Probably need a bit of small print to ensure the votes are all from bona fide challengers, but you get the idea...

In our hypothetical environment I add:

The class of boats must last at least 3 cycles unless there is unanimity among all challengers and defender to change it. After third cycle only 51% needed and in case of parity the defender choses. This would give stability

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Because it would not respect : Any organized Yacht Club of a foreign country, incorporated, patented, or licensed by the legislature, admiralty, or other executive department, having for its annual regatta an ocean water course on the sea, or on an arm of the sea, or one which combines both, shall always be entitled to the right of sailing a match of this Cup,

But.......:

"when a challenge from a Club fulfilling all the conditions required by this instrument has been received, no other challenge can be considered until the pending event has been decided."

This created the hip pocket challenge to prevent further DoG challenges. Only one challenge can be considered at a time according to the interpretation . The defender has always chosen the Challenger .

The Defender has not been successfully sued yet, provided the chosen challenger meets the conditions in your paragraph.

Further the Defender has set entry fees and bonds and various requirements that modify that right to challenge. 

In real life, the defender , creates the next AC.

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5 hours ago, 45Roller said:

Magnus' latest 

https://wp.me/scBvtV-momentum

 

 

Here we go again. His whole argument pivots on this false assumption:

"... and if it’s to be recognised as a true global sports entity..."

Why? Why this insistence on re-engineering the AC into, "a vulgar beach event, smelling of sunscreen and french fries". (Trouble, AC Hall of Fame)

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2 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Here we go again. His whole argument pivots on this false assumption:

"... and if it’s to be recognised as a true global sports entity..."

Why? Why this insistence on re-engineering the AC into, "a vulgar beach event, smelling of sunscreen and french fries". (Trouble, AC Hall of Fame)

Hubris and greed.

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1 minute ago, Sailbydate said:

Here we go again. His whole argument pivots on this false assumption:

"... and if it’s to be recognised as a true global sports entity..."

Why? Why this insistence on re-engineering the AC into, "a vulgar beach event, smelling of sunscreen and french fries". (Trouble, AC Hall of Fame)

I agree, despite having nothing against french fries

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11 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Here we go again. His whole argument pivots on this false assumption:

"... and if it’s to be recognised as a true global sports entity..."

Why? Why this insistence on re-engineering the AC into, "a vulgar beach event, smelling of sunscreen and french fries". (Trouble, AC Hall of Fame)

Keeping on this path we will invent SailGP :D

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"The hired hands are on their way home." Well, fine. Why this obsession with F1 (surely not all sailors or sailing watchers are into F1) and professionalizing? With continuity of sponsorship?  Unless of course, the objective of the America's Cup is to keep the hired hands perpetually paid? And to make being a Cup contestant an entitlement? 

That's Russell's Regatta, no?  No interteam technology competition, just regular upgrades kind of like Windows?  

Maybe I have an American viewpoint, the Cup is like political campaigns...hired hands scramble for new gigs every cycle, prospective candidates scramble for sponsors/donors...

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2 hours ago, strider470 said:

Provocation: What if the COR is chosen at random among all the challenges that arrived on the first day after the new defender takes the Cup? Let's put all the teams' name in an urn, challengers and defender as well. The team that is picked can name the COR.

Edit: of course this is a sci-fi modified DoG

My belief is not too far from that. I think there should be open and defined channels through which a challenge can be lodged for 24 hours after the winner crosses the line. All of those challengers get put in a room for a month to decide which of them will be the CoR. The CoR then goes forward to negotiate the cup details based on what the group of challengers want. I think this would go a long way to getting some continuity into the event.

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3 hours ago, Blitzkrieg9 said:

Seems like a group of yacht clubs should create an enduring entity.  It wouldn't change the DoG or have any status to dictate terms.  Rather, it could just be a non-profit tasked with media relations and custodianship of IP.  Call in America's Cup Public Relations, Inc.  or something like that.   Just a handful of employees tasked with getting ahold of old broadcasts and maintaining a central repository of past events. 

I definitely think there should be some sort of entity. My thoughts are along the lines of a board made up of significant parties with clear guidelines and pathways for new teams to be represented in the future.

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5 minutes ago, The Advocate said:

My belief is not too far from that. I think there should be open and defined channels through which a challenge can be lodged for 24 hours after the winner crosses the line. All of those challengers get put in a room for a month to decide which of them will be the CoR. The CoR then goes forward to negotiate the cup details based on what the group of challengers want. I think this would go a long way to getting some continuity into the event.

I could imagine that a clear path that ensures that "Any organized Yacht Club of a foreign country,..., shall always be entitled to the right of sailing a match of this Cup" would even be considered for a Deed change by the AG/NYSC. But that would mean that the respective trustee (defender) asks for that very change. 
Would they do this? Since it would prevent hip-pocket-challenges with all their merits for the Defender?

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5 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

I could imagine that a clear path that ensures that "Any organized Yacht Club of a foreign country,..., shall always be entitled to the right of sailing a match of this Cup" would even be considered for a Deed change by the AG/NYSC. But that would mean that the respective trustee (defender) asks for that very change. 
Would they do this? Since it would prevent hip-pocket-challenges with all their merits for the Defender?

I agree. Perhaps it could can from a group of previous trustees? Not sure if the NYSC would take pleasure in that though.

 

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18 minutes ago, strider470 said:

I agree, despite having nothing against french fries

 

French fries (the genuine American "french fries" and not the much better pommes frites in France)  should raise many concerns ....taste...health etc.

There is an irony in suggesting the AC trying to avoid becoming a commercial event smelling of sunscreen and french fries. The AC started putting on the sunscreen the moment they started hosting AC balls in the Newport mansions. Commercialization and sponsorship are attracted to glamour.

The AC and its history is the most glamorous event in the sport of sailing. The AC is the Bridgette Bardot on the red carpet of sailing and blaming the movie goers for wanting  popcorn and pepsi is unrealistic.

It is not the vulgar people that will spoil the AC , it will be mishandling the event. Either get rid of the glamour or acknowledge the glamour and channel it effectively.  

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6 hours ago, jaysper said:

So the RNZYS has pretty clearly already bent over and gone for the soap in the press.

Any suggestion they are running the show is utterly laughable.

7 hours ago, The Advocate said:

RNZYS is really running the show....Funniest thing I read today!

This is how it should ave looked, sorry for any confusion.

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27 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

"The hired hands are on their way home." Well, fine. Why this obsession with F1 (surely not all sailors or sailing watchers are into F1) and professionalizing? With continuity of sponsorship?  Unless of course, the objective of the America's Cup is to keep the hired hands perpetually paid? And to make being a Cup contestant an entitlement? 

That's Russell's Regatta, no?  No interteam technology competition, just regular upgrades kind of like Windows?  

Maybe I have an American viewpoint, the Cup is like political campaigns...hired hands scramble for new gigs every cycle, prospective candidates scramble for sponsors/donors...

You nailed it, Clew.

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41 minutes ago, strider470 said:

Fuck Prada :D :D :D

2047171210_bandierabianca.thumb.jpg.5c91d790d88cfce280eb46555d22c1a2.jpg

@strider470 This history of CORs might cheer you up.

http://www.cupinfo.com/en/americas-cup-brief-history-challenger-of-record-01.php

Apart from LR this year only one other COR, Gretel II, the first in 1970, made it to the match. No COR has ever won the AC!

LR is better off out of it, and it doesn't bode well for INEOS.

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28 minutes ago, The Advocate said:

My belief is not too far from that. I think there should be open and defined channels through which a challenge can be lodged for 24 hours after the winner crosses the line. All of those challengers get put in a room for a month to decide which of them will be the CoR. The CoR then goes forward to negotiate the cup details based on what the group of challengers want. I think this would go a long way to getting some continuity into the event.

Black or white smoke signals to signify the CoR is elected. No wait...

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1 minute ago, marlowe said:

45, any chance you could copy and paste some of the interesting bits?

sure thing mate, apologies, give me a couple of minutes

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9 minutes ago, marlowe said:

@strider470 This history of CORs might cheer you up.

http://www.cupinfo.com/en/americas-cup-brief-history-challenger-of-record-01.php

Apart from LR this year only one other COR, Gretel II, the first in 1970, made it to the match. No COR has ever won the AC!

LR is better off out of it, and it doesn't bode well for INEOS.

e figlie so' piezz 'e COR

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I wish Ehmans false accusations & disinformation would be flagged by FB CEO Mark Zuckerberg the same way he flagged and eventually suspended Donald Trumps FB Account!

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13 minutes ago, 45Roller said:

I posted this already. I was against INEOS taking the CoR gig but they probably got coaxed into it to eventually save ETNZ I think!

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2 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

I wish Ehmans false accusations & disinformation would be flagged by FB CEO Mark Zuckerberg the same way he flagged and eventually suspended Donald Trumps FB Account!

Francesco Bruni CEO! :D Checco for president!!!!!

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9 minutes ago, strider470 said:

e figlie so' piezz 'e COR

Perso nella traduzione. Non capisco.

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6 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

I posted this already. I was against INEOS taking the CoR gig but they probably got coaxed into it to eventually save ETNZ I think!

Ratcliffe clearly has his own agenda, and I don't think it is all to relevant to AC38.

The only reason to have a 1 on 1 AC next year, is to disrupt continuity. If keeping the AC in the public eye was the aim, they could have organized an AC75 invitational on the Solent and included everyone, even new teams that could have bought one of the first generation boats from the current teams

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13 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Black or white smoke signals to signify the CoR is elected. No wait...

Nah, just a knock on the defending YC door.

It could also potentially lead to an "agreed entity" being put forward by the challenging group to take the load off the CoR.

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13 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:
23 minutes ago, strider470 said:

e figlie so' piezz 'e COR

Perso nella traduzione. Non capisco.

E figlie sò piezz’e core. Is Neapolitan dialect (I  figli sono  sono pezzi del nostro cuore)

Children are are pieces of our heart.

Core is heart. I omitted the final e to obtain COR ;)

I sometimes put something for@jaysper to study! :D

 

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1 minute ago, strider470 said:

E figlie sò piezz’e core. Is Neapolitan dialect (I  figli sono  sono pezzi del nostro cuore)

Children are are pieces of our heart.

Core is heart. I omitted the final e to obtain COR ;)

I sometimes put something for@jaysper to study! :D

Goddamn! Bastardo! (that was amazingly easy to translate) :D

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5 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

Bold:
If everybody in the AC world agrees that stability is required, fine. Then any defender and CoR can agree on the AC75 for eternity. But only after they are Defender and CoR.

I find absolutely no disagreement in SAAC with the notion of stability. In fact, there are many voices asking for it so that we can witness a real multi-challenger AC again. But without the violation of the DoG.

We are on the same page, Rennie. The deed makes achieving consensus towards that kind of stability challenging, but not impossible. The problem is that defenders tend to turn into Gollums once they win the cup and want to dictate the terms to the challengers instead of seeking consensus and sharing power. We've seen it happen with Alinghi, Oracle and now ETNZ.

It's not always exclusively the defenders at fault, either. Some of the challengers can be right pains in the ass and put their individual competitive success above the long term health of the event.

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16 minutes ago, alphafb552 said:

Ratcliffe clearly has his own agenda, and I don't think it is all to relevant to AC38.

The only reason to have a 1 on 1 AC next year, is to disrupt continuity. If keeping the AC in the public eye was the aim, they could have organized an AC75 invitational on the Solent and included everyone, even new teams that could have bought one of the first generation boats from the current teams

He may have his own agenda BUT he can't do anything without the agreement of the Defender RNZYS/ETNZ. At the moment both Teams seem to be on the same Page though!

According to the current CIC Rule potential new Teams are not allowed to sail for example "Te Aihe" or "Britannia 1" so talking about new Teams be included is moot at this Point. The CIC would need to be waived to do that see here:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/americas-cup/300256444/now-that-americas-cup-is-over-what-happens-to-the-boats

Start-Up Teams or New Teams are prohibited to sail "Te Aihe" for example should they buy them!

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Who exactly says stability and multiple challengers are needed?  One bunch is probably people trying to convince venues and sponsors the event will be a goldmine.  Subset is those wanting ACWS and big Challenger Selection series to flog to venues and sponsors. These people get paid to do this, part of the hired hands. Then there are the jobs programs. 

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5 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

I find absolutely no disagreement in SAAC with the notion of stability. In fact, there are many voices asking for it so that we can witness a real multi-challenger AC again. But without the violation of the DoG.

+1

Those that are portraying commentators that don't think the current is a good one as not wanting stability in the Cup are putting forth a misleading argument.

You can disagree with the current situation and still want stability, they are not mutually exclusive ideas.

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4 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

Who exactly says stability and multiple challengers are needed?  One bunch is probably people trying to convince venues and sponsors the event will be a goldmine.  Subset is those wanting ACWS and big Challenger Selection series to flog to venues and sponsors. These people get paid to do this, part of the hired hands. Then there are the jobs programs. 

The history of the Cup shows us that it is not needed, however I think it is a desirable ideal that could only benefit the Cup going forward.

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5 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

Who exactly says stability and multiple challengers are needed?  One bunch is probably people trying to convince venues and sponsors the event will be a goldmine.  Subset is those wanting ACWS and big Challenger Selection series to flog to venues and sponsors. These people get paid to do this, part of the hired hands. Then there are the jobs programs. 

They are not needed, but they would enhance our enjoyment.

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13 minutes ago, strider470 said:

ahahahahah

So getting together a repetoire of insults if/when I become a Prada supporter.

And if ETNZ comes to its senses I guess I could always fling them at you crazy italian supporters/

Hopefully GTrans has got this right: 

Figlio di puttana
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2 minutes ago, jaysper said:

So getting together a repetoire of insults if/when I become a Prada supporter.

And if ETNZ comes to its senses I guess I could always fling them at you crazy italian supporters/

Hopefully GTrans has got this right: 


Figlio di puttana

così è google translate l'arma preferita in questi giorni lol

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2 minutes ago, jaysper said:

So getting together a repetoire of insults if/when I become a Prada supporter.

And if ETNZ comes to its senses I guess I could always fling them at you crazy italian supporters/

Hopefully GTrans has got this right: 


Figlio di puttana

We Italians sometimes use the wrong pronunciation and say "Figlio di una spiaggia" ;)

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Just now, strider470 said:

We Italians sometimes use the wrong pronunciation and say "Figlio di una spiaggia" ;)

LOL! But its son of a whore right?

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21 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

He may have his own agenda BUT he can't do anything without the agreement of the Defender RNZYS/ETNZ. At the moment both Teams seem to be on the same Page though!

According to the current CIC Rule potential new Teams are not allowed to sail for example "Te Aihe" or "Britannia 1" so talking about new Teams be included is moot at this Point. The CIC would need to be waived to do that see here:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/americas-cup/300256444/now-that-americas-cup-is-over-what-happens-to-the-boats

Start-Up Teams or New Teams are prohibited to sail "Te Aihe" for example should they buy them!

These CiC rules in principle only apply to the Cup match, and in most protocols also for the CSS. What happens outside of that is completely free. Back in the 12m days, it was quite common for new syndicates to start out with another syndicate’s boat as a trial horse

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1 minute ago, alphafb552 said:

These CiC rules in principle only apply to the Cup match, and in most protocols also for the CSS. What happens outside of that is completely free. Back in the 12m days, it was quite common for new syndicates to start out with another syndicate’s boat as a trial horse

The 12M class was an ISAF class though so stood alone from the AC. If your take is what is to stop a team not current under the protocol (a challenger) from building as many boats as they want to, I agree.

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2 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

Hubris and greed.

No surprise that Ratcliffe is involved, it fits his MO perfectly.

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2 minutes ago, mad said:

No surprise that Ratcliffe is involved, it fits his MO perfectly.

Is there a summary of him somewhere? Know nothing about him but take your word for it.

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1 hour ago, NeedAClew said:

"The hired hands are on their way home." Well, fine. Why this obsession with F1 (surely not all sailors or sailing watchers are into F1) and professionalizing? With continuity of sponsorship?  Unless of course, the objective of the America's Cup is to keep the hired hands perpetually paid? And to make being a Cup contestant an entitlement? 

That's Russell's Regatta, no?  No interteam technology competition, just regular upgrades kind of like Windows?  

Maybe I have an American viewpoint, the Cup is like political campaigns...hired hands scramble for new gigs every cycle, prospective candidates scramble for sponsors/donors...

A nice steady contract, earning good money and sailing on around on cool boats in nice countries.  Its very tempting and its cheap performing poodles for the ego billionaires. Match made in heaven.

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2 minutes ago, The Advocate said:

Is there a summary of him somewhere? Know nothing about him but take your word for it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Ratcliffe

Quote
Quote

Billionaires Sir James Dyson and Sir James Ratcliffe, the latter of chemical giant Ineos, are two of Britain’s big business Brexiteers, both made grand plans in the motoring space to return the U.K. to its former glory in the year following Brexit.

However, with news last week that Ineos was considering the move of its reported Grenadier 4x4 project to France, and Dyson having pulled the plug on his own electric vehicle dreams in October, the reality of Brexit (and the complexities of trade) are proving that even for billionaires, building cars from scratch is expensive, risky and yet to receive any competitive advantage from the U.K.’s decision to league the E.U.

Its all just a game.

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2 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

But.......:

"when a challenge from a Club fulfilling all the conditions required by this instrument has been received, no other challenge can be considered until the pending event has been decided."

This created the hip pocket challenge to prevent further DoG challenges. Only one challenge can be considered at a time according to the interpretation . The defender has always chosen the Challenger .

The Defender has not been successfully sued yet, provided the chosen challenger meets the conditions in your paragraph.

Further the Defender has set entry fees and bonds and various requirements that modify that right to challenge. 

In real life, the defender , creates the next AC.

Your explanation precludes that the hip pocket comes first, however there is now a double requirement, which means that at YC could be the first to challenge but not able to race because he did not sign for an AC75. That goes explicitly against the word of the Deed.

You are right that in practice until now the defender creates the next AC, however the notion of hip pocket has never been tested in court,  neither the new double requirement.  It could be interesting to see the NYYC testing it.

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9 hours ago, The Advocate said:

Me a self appointed moderator lol, get off your fucking high horse designed as a camel.

RNZYS is really running the show....

Funniest thing I read today...

I am not offering my help, I am giving you my opinion, do you not know how forums work?

Young fellas like you barely wet behind the ears spouting your opinion every 3 posts, sometimes 3 in a row. 

Yup, that's how this forum works.then we ignore you, and you go away

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51 minutes ago, The Advocate said:

cheers

He's a shrewd operator and backs his people.

During COVID lockdown he paid  Ineos AC subcontractors to have covid security and his outfit has a very low management turnover.

 

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1 hour ago, mad said:

A nice steady contract, earning good money and sailing on around on cool boats in nice countries.  Its very tempting and its cheap performing poodles for the ego billionaires. Match made in heaven.

isn't this just sailgp/any of the other pro sailing series?

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3 minutes ago, barfy said:

Young fellas like you barely wet behind the ears spouting your opinion every 3 posts, sometimes 3 in a row. 

Yup, that's how this forum works.then we ignore you, and you go away

LOL, good luck with that.

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8 minutes ago, chesirecat said:

He's a shrewd operator and backs his people.

During COVID lockdown he paid  Ineos AC subcontractors to have covid security and his outfit has a very low management turnover.

 

Cheers

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58 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Your explanation precludes that the hip pocket comes first, however there is now a double requirement, which means that at YC could be the first to challenge but not able to race because he did not sign for an AC75. That goes explicitly against the word of the Deed.

You are right that in practice until now the defender creates the next AC, however the notion of hip pocket has never been tested in court,  neither the new double requirement.  It could be interesting to see the NYYC testing it.

Michael Fay created the need for the hip pocket challenge process. Prior to that the tradition established by the NYYC was that the Defending Club organized the Cup based on a class of yacht chosen by the defender and mutually agreed by the challengers.

Along came Michael fay who caught the defender , SDYC, off guard and ever since then, the winning team has had a hip pocket challenge lined up to protect themselves from a Mercury Bay fiasco.

If any defendant had any doubt about the importance of having a legitimate hip pocket challenge lined up, they were reminded again by Larry Ellision and the GGYC challenge and the millions of legal expenses and wasted years spent on that challenge. From that time on, the two finalists in any AC have their hip pocket challenges lined up.

I doubt NYYC would want to test it in court. Even more importantly, what would they propose as an alternative to determining who the challenger of record is going to be?

 

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19 minutes ago, The Advocate said:

LOL, good luck with that.

barfidiot is not able to hear a dissenting opinion, first insults, then claim to put on iggy, but is not able either to control himself, so expect to hear from him again. :)

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6 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

barfidiot is not able to hear a dissenting opinion, first insults, then claim to put on iggy, but is not able either to control himself, so expect to hear from him again. :)

LOL I have no doubt!

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35 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

Michael Fay created the need for the hip pocket challenge process. Prior to that the tradition established by the NYYC was that the Defending Club organized the Cup based on a class of yacht chosen by the defender and mutually agreed by the challengers.

Along came Michael fay who caught the defender , SDYC, off guard and ever since then, the winning team has had a hip pocket challenge lined up to protect themselves from a Mercury Bay fiasco.

If any defendant had any doubt about the importance of having a legitimate hip pocket challenge lined up, they were reminded again by Larry Ellision and the GGYC challenge and the millions of legal expenses and wasted years spent on that challenge. From that time on, the two finalists in any AC have their hip pocket challenges lined up.

I doubt NYYC would want to test it in court. Even more importantly, what would they propose as an alternative to determining who the challenger of record is going to be?

 

The total control of an AC by hand picking the challenger is part of the last ACs but hardly understandable, the control of two next ACs by the defender using the same trick is just not acceptable.

And by using the same logic, the present defender could control the next ACs without any limit of time, it makes no sense.

So, what alternative ? any solution authorizing "Any organized Yacht Club of a foreign country...... shall always be entitled to the right of sailing a match".

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8 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

Initially I assumed that George Schuyler wanted the defending club to defend at the same place that was used for the annual regatta (the home waters). But he did not explicitly mentioned it in the Deed, au contraire, he deliberately deleted this phrase ("... sailed over the usual course for the Annual Regatta of the Yacht Club in possession of the Cup...) from the first resp. second Deed (1857/1882). Therefore, I now think that Georgie did not care in the least where the defense takes place. He might not have thought that it will be taken to another country, but probably he would not object either. Otherwise, he could have written it into the third Deed

I can’t for the life of me remember where I read it but I have a feeling he deleted that phrase because of some issue with the club course. 

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41 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

Michael Fay created the need for the hip pocket challenge process. Prior to that the tradition established by the NYYC was that the Defending Club organized the Cup based on a class of yacht chosen by the defender and mutually agreed by the challengers.

Along came Michael fay who caught the defender , SDYC, off guard and ever since then, the winning team has had a hip pocket challenge lined up to protect themselves from a Mercury Bay fiasco.

If any defendant had any doubt about the importance of having a legitimate hip pocket challenge lined up, they were reminded again by Larry Ellision and the GGYC challenge and the millions of legal expenses and wasted years spent on that challenge. From that time on, the two finalists in any AC have their hip pocket challenges lined up.

I doubt NYYC would want to test it in court. Even more importantly, what would they propose as an alternative to determining who the challenger of record is going to be?

 

If my suggestion from earlier regarding a 24 hour challenge period was implemented, it would negate a Mercury Bay situation.

 

Edit, actually I can see one issue unresolved by it. When no challenges are received in the period.

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50 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

 

So, what alternative ? any solution authorizing "Any organized Yacht Club of a foreign country...... shall always be entitled to the right of sailing a match".

Sorry TC, I dont understand this solution. Can you be more specific?

Are you suggesting that any club can present a challenge at any time ?  The deed allows for one challenge at a time and a minimum of 10 months gaps? 

The Hip Pocket challenge gets around this by the defender selecting a challenger of record and organizing a challenger series.  Of course, if the defender and challenger do not want a challenger series then that is different ..but thus far the hip pocket process has provided a challengers eries.

What process are you suggesting for organizing the Cup that complies with the current DoG.

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1 hour ago, crashtack said:

isn't this just sailgp/any of the other pro sailing series?

It’s the Formula 2 version, Ratcliffe wants and believes he can have the F1 version. 

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