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5 hours ago, strider470 said:

Let's be honest, Ben Ainslie wuould have easily won the America's Cup, swapping boats with the Kiwis.

I have to agree, he is the number one sailor of his generation but he's not a Kiwi :-)

The world is full of "if"s but the America's Cup is not sailed in Finns and it takes the whole team to win.

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I’m not calling this out for the sake of ostracizing you, nor to play PC police on a forum that is notorious for the opposite of that. I could just hit ignore, delete or whatever. I’m calling this out

Hilarious to watch Kiwis who've been around since AC35 twist themselves into intellectual pretzels to give ETNZ a pass on what they screamed bloody murder about when Oracle did it. Even Oracle di

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34 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

I wonder how many sailors there are good enough with a Swiss passport on 21 March 2021?

More than enough with their D35 and foiler fleet. And again, the crew does not make much difference, unless for the kiwis who only have sailors, the designers make the difference.

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4 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Thank you, well that's cheerful for those of us over 25, possibly quite a lot over. 

Owen Parker, Ted Heath's sailing master (and author of the excellent read "Tack Now Skipper") was still racing well into his 60's (perhaps even 70's) but he was sailing as a tactician, not helmsman so there is hope for us yet dogwatch

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Just now, Tornado-Cat said:

More than enough with their D35 and foiler fleet. And again, the crew does not make much difference, unless for the kiwis who only have sailors, the designers make the difference.

well let's wait and see - they weren't good enough for the team last Alinghi iteration

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7 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

Big Bad Dennis was 45 when he won it back, 46 when he sailed the Cat but he faded after that and the reactions needed on an AC Class boat were somewhat less than on an AC75. Besides by the time the next Cup comes round Sir Ben will be 48 or 49. Perhaps his value would be more as a mentor or a coach. GBR is not short of quality younger sailors who would have 3-4 years to practice getting to grips with the AC75 

DC looks more Jabba the Hutt and  Ben more Han Solo.

Physical conditioning plays a big part in it all.

Besides as I've stated here previously it was shown pretty conclusively in F1 that reaction times are not the most important thing, the ability to anticipate is.

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1 minute ago, jaysper said:

DC looks more Jabba the Hutt and  Ben more Han Solo.

Physical conditioning plays a big part in it all.

Besides as I've stated here previously it was shown pretty conclusively in F1 that reaction times are not the most important thing, the ability to anticipate is.

I love a good discussion. Time will tell ;-)

Any link to the research?

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2 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

 

Nice FP rebuttal.
One small annotation:

You wrote:

Quote

Of course you could always cut costs and run it in Lasers.

Only if these Lasers are 44 - 90 ft on LWL.

 

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2 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

I love a good discussion. Time will tell ;-)

Any link to the research?

Nah, sorry it was in a documentary about F1 a good number of years ago when people watched these funny contraptions called TVs. 

However it showed that F1 drivers didn't have reaction times beyond the ordinary but rather could anticipate what was coming next and prepare for it much better.

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31 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

Big Bad Dennis was 45 when he won it back, 46 when he sailed the Cat but he faded after that and the reactions needed on an AC Class boat were somewhat less than on an AC75. Besides by the time the next Cup comes round Sir Ben will be 48 or 49. Perhaps his value would be more as a mentor or a coach. GBR is not short of quality younger sailors who would have 3-4 years to practice getting to grips with the AC75 

Dennis's unsuccessful campaigns after 88 had a lot more to do with his shortcomings as a team boss and fundraiser as the game evolved than his slowing reflexes. I agree with your overarching point, that helming an AC75 is a younger man's game than the older boats.

Ben needs to either cede more responsibility for team management or get off the boat. Even stubborn as a mule Dalts realized this eventually, and he wasn't trying to steer.

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47 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

.

AC36 was not the cash cow for the New Zealand economy it was in the past purely because of COVID. Before the borders closed more than enough superyacht owners had expressed they would be coming and other tourist avenues were also expecting full occupancy.

I

in the short term no.

But while the rest of the world was reeling, NZ has been a shining star. Post covid,  NZ inc will emerge a lot stronger than it went in, and holding this event there will be a part of that.

So moving it away would be a silly move in the grand scheme of things, and  only a huge upfront payment could move this.  (AC35 Bermuda - $77m package from bermuda for a projected ~$250m return https://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2014/12/08/bermuda-pay-77-million-host-americas-cup/)

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2 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

Nice FP rebuttal.
One small annotation:

You wrote:

Only if these Lasers are 44 - 90 ft on LWL.

 

ha ha - good point, very good point - someone else who knows the DoG

 

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50 minutes ago, jaysper said:

DC looks more Jabba the Hutt and  Ben more Han Solo.

Physical conditioning plays a big part in it all.

Besides as I've stated here previously it was shown pretty conclusively in F1 that reaction times are not the most important thing, the ability to anticipate is.

Exactly.....and look at Tom Brady. Staying in shapoen is everything

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3 hours ago, jaysper said:

Nah, sorry it was in a documentary about F1 a good number of years ago when people watched these funny contraptions called TVs. 

However it showed that F1 drivers didn't have reaction times beyond the ordinary but rather could anticipate what was coming next and prepare for it much better.

Saw that. Top Gear, Jeremy Clarkson dropping a ruler and Michael Schumaker catching it clapping hands. Notches on ruler indicating reaction time

 

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Just now, Xlot said:

Saw that. Top Gear, Jeremy Clarkson dropping a ruler and Michael Schumaker catching it clapping hands. Notches on ruler indicating reaction time

 

Actually the one I watched was far more documentary style with scientists and shit.

Not that I am dissing Professor Clarkson or anything ;)

But I still stand by my point that despite being on the wrong side of 40, Ben is in excellent physical shape and I don't doubt his ability to do another couple of cycles at least.

He just needs to stop trying to do it all.

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Clearly it's suboptimal to be CEO and Helm - especially for those campaigns that are the pet project of one billionaire.  The team CEO has to keep the money flowing - "no cash, no splash" as JB says.  For teams with one sugar daddy, that person has a much heavier hand on the team.  For INEOS, as soon as they crossed the line and were eliminated in the finals, 100% of Ben's attention was dedicated to entertaining the owner.   That is just one very visible example of how managing the "owner" distracts from leading the team on the water.

For the Kiwi team, GD has the challenge of putting together multiple sources of funding is less certain than one sugar daddy, but has its advantages.  GD can insulate the sailing team from the whims of the sponsors and let them focus on winning, not entertainment. 

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9 hours ago, NZK said:

I agree about the shake-up but perhaps not the person who should go. Maybe I'm being naïve here but what did Simmer actually bring to INEOS this time round?

He didn't bring the money in. He didn't lead the design team. He was supposed to manage the organisation but it was plagued with internal politics that resulted in delays in development that arguable cost them the chance to challenge (this is reference the interview with the French INEOS designer that talked about all the push back from members of the sailing team)....

 

Ben Ainslie hired Simmer because of his Experience when he announced him in 2017 after the Bermuda Cup but Simmer did bring nothing to the table. His Days as a good CEO/Manager are long gone. INEOS needs a younger CEO like Toto Wolff.
If I were Sir Jim Ratcliffe I'd offer Wolff 25M$ to get him out of his current contract with Mercedes F1 (big European Soccer Clubs do this all the time. Paris St. Germain paid Barcelona north of 150M$ to get Neymar out of his contract there) and manage my Team + let him pick the Design Team for my next AC Challenge.

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9 hours ago, strider470 said:

What I mean, is that it's too early to put Ben Ainslie behind a desk.

INEOS has a very skilled Driver when it comes to Foiling Boats in Leigh McMillan. They don't need Ben at the wheel. He's too old and weak!
My guess is that Pietro Sibello will helm the next Luna Rossa Challenge and Bruni will play Tactician like he did in the 2013 Cup.

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4 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

INEOS has a very skilled Driver when it comes to Foiling Boats in Leigh McMillan. They don't need Ben at the wheel. He's too old and weak!
My guess is that Pietro Sibello will helm the next Luna Rossa Challenge and Bruni will play Tactician like he did in the 2013 Cup.

I had the same thought about Sibello, He is a top helmsman. But as it seems Max Sirena is willing to confirm Bruni and Spithill

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7 minutes ago, strider470 said:

I had the same thought about Sibello, He is a top helmsman. But as it seems Max Sirena is willing to confirm Bruni and Spithill

This is not going to end up with the desired Result if Max confirms Spithill & Bruni again.

Your Italian Team has only minor problems compared to INEOS though!

The Brits need a complete Management Shake-Up and I stand by what I said: Get Toto Wolff. That guy hasn't won 6 F1 Constructors Championships in a row for a naught. He knows what's required to put a winning Team together and manage it!

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59 minutes ago, jaysper said:

This Labour government was spending money like Nicholas Cage on speed PRIOR coronavirus.

They've since printed $60 Billion (I think) with more to come, so I would be surprised if they don't shake their money maker.

That’s a possibility, but again a condition would be budget oversight by gray government bean counters, who’d be sure to impose franciscan limits on payrolls

Also,  interesting take by S-W

https://www.sail-world.com/news/236216/Future-Americas-Cup-direction-still-unclear

They do seem to consider the 1:1 match as a red herring, if I read them right

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5 minutes ago, Xlot said:

That’s a possibility, but again a condition would be budget oversight by gray government bean counters, who’d be sure to impose franciscan limits on payrolls

Also,  interesting take by S-W

https://www.sail-world.com/news/236216/Future-Americas-Cup-direction-still-unclear

They do seem to consider te 1:1 match as a red herring, if I read them right

I think it is too. As annoyed as I am with ETNZ it is just pathetic that the NZ Government haven't spent the last 3 years negotiating this next defence so that immediately at the conclusion of the match they could have either:

1. Cut a cheque for a hosting rights to the next defence, or 

2. Say fuck off, go defend elsewhere.

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18 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

This is not going to end up with the desired Result if Max confirms Spithill & Bruni again.

Your Italian Team has only minor problems compared to INEOS though!

The Brits need a complete Management Shake-Up and I stand by what I said: Get Toto Wolff. That guy hasn't won 6 F1 Constructors Championships in a row for a naught. He knows what's required to put a winning Team together and manage it!

What's wrong with spithill/bruni? They had the best starts out of anyone in ac75s, and relatively few tactical mistakes...

Taking 3 races (very nearly 5) off the rocketship that was etnz is no small feat

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1 minute ago, crashtack said:

What's wrong with spithill/bruni? They had the best starts out of anyone in ac75s, and relatively few tactical mistakes...

I agree. If Burling, Tuke and Ashby had sailed as well as Bruni/Spithill then the score line would have been a LOT more lopsided - might have even been the 7-0 I was predicting.

Look at the penultimate race where they drove ETNZ clean off the course before making a mad dash for the bottom mark. That whole race was a master class barring the single mistake Bruni made to head right rather than left on the next upwind leg.

If the LR boat was as fast (or even close to as fast), then ETNZ would have had no chance in that race.

 

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5 hours ago, idontwan2know said:

Dennis's unsuccessful campaigns after 88 had a lot more to do with his shortcomings as a team boss and fundraiser as the game evolved than his slowing reflexes. I agree with your overarching point, that helming an AC75 is a younger man's game than the older boats.

 

Sadly AC75 crew weight limits would preclude DC from being eligible to mount another challenge :P

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18 minutes ago, crashtack said:

What's wrong with spithill/bruni? They had the best starts out of anyone in ac75s, and relatively few tactical mistakes...

Taking 3 races (very nearly 5) off the rocketship that was etnz is no small feat

In like FB/Spits helming but I'd like Sibello to have even more authority and input. Much like TH on AM, doing other tasks (like driving or flying) occupies a lot of your mental power. 

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46 minutes ago, jaysper said:

If the LR boat was as fast (or even close to as fast), then ETNZ would have had no chance in that race.

 

Agreed LR dominated in the starts.

We dont know and never will know if ETNZ was a faster boat due entirely to the boat or the people driving .   When Burling/Tuke are racing one design 49ers, they have clear speed advantage over midfleet.  Great boat speed can come from the talents of the helm/trim.

Im not suggesting that LR was the faster boat. Im just saying we cant draw too many conclusions.

Burling dominated in the Moth worlds. He was just faster.

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1 hour ago, EYESAILOR said:

Agreed LR dominated in the starts.

We dont know and never will know if ETNZ was a faster boat due entirely to the boat or the people driving .   When Burling/Tuke are racing one design 49ers, they have clear speed advantage over midfleet.  Great boat speed can come from the talents of the helm/trim.

Im not suggesting that LR was the faster boat. Im just saying we cant draw too many conclusions.

Burling dominated in the Moth worlds. He was just faster.

Fair point. However dgs normal rant about all things LR is once again unjustified imo.

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1 hour ago, EYESAILOR said:

Agreed LR dominated in the starts.

We dont know and never will know if ETNZ was a faster boat due entirely to the boat or the people driving .   When Burling/Tuke are racing one design 49ers, they have clear speed advantage over midfleet.  Great boat speed can come from the talents of the helm/trim.

Im not suggesting that LR was the faster boat. Im just saying we cant draw too many conclusions.

Burling dominated in the Moth worlds. He was just faster.

The speed edge Te Rehutai had over Luna Rossa has been confirmed by both the sailing teams in almost every interview after the match. And if you have a look at the performance thread here you can also get all the data you need. It's not a boat handling issue, unfortunately.

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15 minutes ago, strider470 said:

The speed edge Te Rehutai had over Luna Rossa has been confirmed by both the sailing teams in almost every interview after the match. And if you have a look at the performance thread here you can also get all the data you need. It's not a boat handling issue, unfortunately.

Yeah I was just being pedantic.

There is no doubt that TR was faster.   Im sure design was the most significant part of that. But please remember that if there are two identical boats, one will be faster....always.

Ben Ainslie's Finn was consistently faster than Dean Barkers Finn when they raced against each other in the Olympics......by a considerable margin. If they swapped boats, Ben's Finn would still have been faster. Ben's tactics were superb and helped him win gold but he clearly had superior boat speed over several talented competition.  When we move away from one design we tend to assume that the difference in boat speed is wholly attributable to the boat.

But ...sorry to go on diversion....yes TR was faster.

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2 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

Yeah I was just being pedantic.

There is no doubt that TR was faster.   Im sure design was the most significant part of that. But please remember that if there are two identical boats, one will be faster....always.

Ben Ainslie's Finn was consistently faster than Dean Barkers Finn when they raced against each other in the Olympics......by a considerable margin. If they swapped boats, Ben's Finn would still have been faster. Ben's tactics were superb and helped him win gold but he clearly had superior boat speed over several talented competition.  When we move away from one design we tend to assume that the difference in boat speed is wholly attributable to the boat.

But ...sorry to go on diversion....yes TR was faster.

You are right in general, but these machines are so optimized and computerized for performance analysis that I doubt any bit of possible speed had not been squeezed, especially in a straight line. In manoeuvring, it would be easier to see differences and errors, but both teams had been almost flawless. ETNZ, a bit rusty at the beginning, could match LR speed in tacking only after some races, for instance.

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3 minutes ago, strider470 said:

You are right in general, but these machines are so optimized and computerized for performance analysis that I doubt any bit of possible speed had not been squeezed, especially in a straight line. In manoeuvring, it would be easier to see differences and errors, but both teams had been almost flawless. ETNZ, a bit rusty at the beginning, could match LR speed in tacking only after some races, for instance.

Im old fashioned. I watch Burling and Spitbull and Ceco twisting the handles and fine tuning trim, at the margin and on every wave, I believe that someone will be better at that.

I know that even if I had 365 days of practice, 10 hours a day, all three of them would be faster than me without any practice. After that its a matter of degree. Between them, I believe enough in the human element to believe that  one will be slightly faster in a straight line.

I think it is more important to have the right design , and more important to be on the right part of the course with pressure and shirt......but if I am a billionaire putting together a challenge I want all three....brilliant designer - brilliant tactician-    .....and yes, a helm who can squeeze  0.5% of boat speed.

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23 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

Yeah I was just being pedantic.

There is no doubt that TR was faster.   Im sure design was the most significant part of that. But please remember that if there are two identical boats, one will be faster....always.

Ben Ainslie's Finn was consistently faster than Dean Barkers Finn when they raced against each other in the Olympics......by a considerable margin. If they swapped boats, Ben's Finn would still have been faster. Ben's tactics were superb and helped him win gold but he clearly had superior boat speed over several talented competition.  When we move away from one design we tend to assume that the difference in boat speed is wholly attributable to the boat.

But ...sorry to go on diversion....yes TR was faster.

Ainslie has consistently performed better in a OD Class. In the 2011-2013 ACWS when he first made leaps with his Morgan Stanley Ben Ainslie Racing Team he finished 3rd although they were later disqualified because de Ridder altered their Boat.

During the 2015/2016 ACWS when it was held in the OD AC45F Class Ainslie won + he won 4 of the 9 Individual Events that were contested.

And finally once he signed up to SailGP with INEOS he trounced everyone in Sydney incl. Outerridge and Slingsby.

The more OD Design Components AC37 has the better for Ben.

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8 hours ago, jaysper said:

Nah, sorry it was in a documentary about F1 a good number of years ago when people watched these funny contraptions called TVs. 

However it showed that F1 drivers didn't have reaction times beyond the ordinary but rather could anticipate what was coming next and prepare for it much better.

Time in a specific track, racing simulator will do that for you, no?

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15 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

Im old fashioned. I watch Burling and Spitbull and Ceco twisting the handles and fine tuning trim, at the margin and on every wave, I believe that someone will be better at that.

I know that even if I had 365 days of practice, 10 hours a day, all three of them would be faster than me without any practice. After that its a matter of degree. Between them, I believe enough in the human element to believe that  one will be slightly faster in a straight line.

I think it is more important to have the right design , and more important to be on the right part of the course with pressure and shirt......but if I am a billionaire putting together a challenge I want all three....brilliant designer - brilliant tactician-    .....and yes, a helm who can squeeze  0.5% of boat speed.

Nobody wants to undervalue Burling and Tuke, who are among the best in the world, but in the races of this AC, in my opinion, they never outsailed the Italian duo. On the contrary, besides in the starting where JS had clearly an edge, also in some pure MR duels, Bruni and Spithill were better and show some creative tactics like the one described by Jaysper.

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14 hours ago, strider470 said:

Let's be honest, Ben Ainslie wuould have easily won the America's Cup, swapping boats with the Kiwis.

Whaaaat!

Ben is one of the greatest slow sailors ever - BUT - he is not a great foiling sailor.  I doubt he and his team could even figure out how to sail the Kiwi boat.  Glenn, Peter and Blair have 1000% more experience in foiling boats and they developed foil and aero trimming modes and maneuvers with their engineers that were years ahead of the competition.

Jet fighter pilots vs. bus driver.

And a bus driver who had to be CEO and entertain his owner while the Kiwi afterward were foiling.

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1 minute ago, cbulger said:

Whaaaat!

Ben is one of the greatest slow sailors ever - BUT - he is not a great foiling sailor.  I doubt he and his team could even figure out how to sail the Kiwi boat.  Glenn, Peter and Blair have 1000% more experience in foiling boats and they developed foil and aero trimming modes and maneuvers with their engineers that were years ahead of the competition.

Jet fighter pilots vs. bus driver.

And a bus driver who had to be CEO and entertain his owner while the Kiwi afterward were foiling.

We will soon discover in SailGP if your quite bold statement is true. Ben can still teach some tricks to the kids, even foiling.

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1 minute ago, cbulger said:

Whaaaat!

Ben is one of the greatest slow sailors ever - BUT - he is not a great foiling sailor.  I doubt he and his team could even figure out how to sail the Kiwi boat.  Glenn, Peter and Blair have 1000% more experience in foiling boats and they developed foil and aero trimming modes and maneuvers with their engineers that were years ahead of the competition.

Jet fighter pilots vs. bus driver.

And a bus driver who had to be CEO and entertain his owner while the Kiwi afterward were foiling.

I agree that Ben could not jump in kiwi boat and expect to be competitive.

However I do think it is jet pilot vs jet pilot.

Ben has won plenty of foiling races vs some of the most experienced foiling sailors in the world.  Ben started foiling in 2013. I'm not sure when  Peter/Blair started, was it much before then?...but I could be wrong.  I think that Peter's experience in the Moth class was uniquely useful and he won the 2015 moth worlds , so assuming he took some time to get that good, I expect he was probably also foiling around 2013.

 

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11 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Time in a specific track, racing simulator will do that for you, no?

Well, given that I drive a SUV with about 200 HP and the F1 drivers drive a 1000 HP go-kart, I'm gonna say no. ;)

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5 minutes ago, strider470 said:

We will soon discover in SailGP if your quite bold statement is true. Ben can still teach some tricks to the kids, even foiling.

The Beauty of SailGP is that it is OD similar to the Volvo Ocean Race 2017/2018 so SailGP Season 2 will be won by the best Sailing Team and not who has the best Design & Fastest Boat.

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19 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

I agree that Ben could not jump in kiwi boat and expect to be competitive.

However I do think it is jet pilot vs jet pilot.

Ben has won plenty of foiling races vs some of the most experienced foiling sailors in the world.  Ben started foiling in 2013. I'm not sure when  Peter/Blair started, was it much before then?...but I could be wrong.  I think that Peter's experience in the Moth class was uniquely useful and he won the 2015 moth worlds , so assuming he took some time to get that good, I expect he was probably also foiling around 2013.

 

OK - bus driver is a bit harsh.  For a fund raiser/self-promoter, Ben has some foiling chops.

But when i think about winning the AC - its all about the quality of your speed development camps.  It was like that when I spent a little time sailing with DC on 12's and it is like that today.  Peter Burling has spent more time since 2010 than anyone else in high-performance speed camps - from 49er camps with NO when he was #1 in world, Moth camps with TS and other #1 sailors and A-Cat camps with the #1 speed wizard GA.  Shape foils, cut new sails, rig new controls, go sailing - REPEAT.  One thing that foiling has not changed is that developing speed is still all about time in the boats and feel.

No, I don't have the data, but Peter and company have to have spent 10x more time developing speed than BA has put in over the last decade.

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Did I miss any posts about this?

The press release suggests that syndicates can build only one boat for AC37. If they promote some RtI exhibition race as an actual ‘Cup’ then would those two teams get the opportunity to leapfrog potential AC38 Challs, building even newer boats for that one? 

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3 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Did I miss any posts about this?

The press release suggests that syndicates can build only one boat for AC37. If they promote some RtI exhibition race as an actual ‘Cup’ then would those two teams get the opportunity to leapfrog potential AC38 Challs, building even newer boats for that one? 

A plan so cunning, you could you could put a tail on it and call it a weasel.

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34 minutes ago, southseasbill said:

Max not happy:

"“A dual event would be a disaster for the whole America's Cup world, as well as a farce,” Sirena told Corriere della Sera."

 

Well, he's correct on both accounts. Pathetic.

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3 minutes ago, southseasbill said:

A plan so cunning, you could you could put a tail on it and call it a weasel.

But the language does read that way, right? Only those two could build new boats for the 2022 ‘Cup’ and then they, like anyone else left, could build new boats for 2024? If I’m AM or LR, I’d probably just drop out if it were that damn stupid :D 

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2 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

But the language does read that way, right? Only those two could build new boats for the 2022 ‘Cup’ and then they, like anyone else left, could build new boats for 2024? If I’m AM or LR, I’d probably just drop out if it were that damn stupid :D 

Actually, as long as there's no protocol for AC38 and that proto is not signed by the respective challenger, this challenger can build and sail as many AC75s as they want - IP issues notwithstanding.

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10 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

Actually, as long as there's no protocol for AC38 and that proto is not signed by the respective challenger, this challenger can build and sail as many AC75s as they want - IP issues notwithstanding.

Are you suggesting that any teams interested in AC38 (after the possible and silly ‘AC37 Cup’ exhibition in the UK) could start building as many boat upgrades in the meantime as they want? Interesting idea! 

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1 minute ago, Stingray~ said:

Are you suggesting that any teams for AC38 (after the possible ‘AC37 Cup’) could start building as many boat upgrades as they want? Interesting idea! 

Why not?  Since they're not part of AC37, they have no more restrictions than you or me.   I can go build all the foils I want.  

The issue is $$$ as always. 

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10 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

Actually, as long as there's no protocol for AC38 and that proto is not signed by the respective challenger, this challenger can build and sail as many AC75s as they want - IP issues notwithstanding.

Well, yes, but the rule will be changed and we don't know by how much, so, what is the interest of building and test boats if they don't know the AC38 rule ? or that only two teams have an idea of it ?

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8 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Are you suggesting that any teams interested in AC38 (after the possible and silly ‘AC37 Cup’ exhibition in the UK) could start building as many boat upgrades in the meantime as they want? Interesting idea! 

@Tornado-Cat has the right idea. Actually I think that everyone could build AC72s now, but details in the technical rule might change - for AC37 and AC38. So, building now comes with the huge risk of having outdated boats for AC38 anyway. LR and AM could as well use their available AC36 boats and modify them or practice withe them. That would be the safer and less costly way.

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3 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

@Tornado-Cat has the right idea. Actually I think that everyone could build AC72s now, but details in the technical rule might change - for AC37 and AC38. So, building now comes with the huge risk of having outdated boats for AC38 anyway. 

If you're building AC72s...  they're outdated regardless.  :) :) :)

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Ineos cashed up and ready to go if not started already.

LR has signed up 90% of their team.

AM, according to TH, is back in 14 months time.

ETNZ according to Stuart Tindal, trying to stay solvent.

Franck Gammas re setting up an AC challenge based of budgeting 20 million a year

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7 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

@Tornado-Cat has the right idea. Actually I think that everyone could build AC72s now, but details in the technical rule might change - for AC37 and AC38. So, building now comes with the huge risk of having outdated boats for AC38 anyway. LR and AM could as well use their available AC36 boats and modify them or practice withe them. That would be the safer and less costly way.

That would be so cool! A bit risky though, but yes I know what you meant. :D 
 

Without the useless bowsprit will they have to rename the AC75’s to AC68’s? And what ‘legal’ Prot implications would that have? Maybe they will have just selfie-sticks? 

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20 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Are you suggesting that any teams interested in AC38 (after the possible and silly ‘AC37 Cup’ exhibition in the UK) could start building as many boat upgrades in the meantime as they want? Interesting idea! 

I hear AM are already working on upgrades to Patriot.

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1 hour ago, southseasbill said:

Max not happy:

"“A dual event would be a disaster for the whole America's Cup world, as well as a farce,” Sirena told Corriere della Sera."

 

“Clown show”, actually

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5 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

That would be so cool! A bit risky though, but yes I know what you meant. :D 
 

Without the useless bowsprit will they have to rename the AC75’s to AC68’s? And what ‘legal’ Prot implications would that have? Maybe they will have just selfie-sticks? 

One of the most crucial point are the foils, will they keep exactly the same rule ? surely not, so how test the good foil if we don't know the foil rule ? Basically it gives one year advance to the two.

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6 minutes ago, southseasbill said:

I hear AM are already working on upgrades to Patriot.

Yeah, heard TH suggesting it on his way out of town yesterday. Before knowing the f’ing venue for AC Whatever, it could be

a gamble about wth to actually build though.. 

Defiant got stripped, other 1st boats did too, I wonder how many will actually be available to.. some China team? 

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1 minute ago, Stingray~ said:

Without the useless bowsprit will they have to rename the AC75’s to AC68’s? And what implications would that have? Maybe they will have just selfie-sticks? 

Nah.  The naming nomenclature isn't standard. For example, the AC72 is significant longer than the AC75.

AC72: 86ft LOA, 72ft LWL.

AC75: 75ft LOA, 62 LWL.

The name is just whatever you want to call it. Kinda. 

Also, the next AC75 will still have a bowsprit for media equipment but it won't be functional for carrying a foresail. 

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4 hours ago, crashtack said:

What's wrong with spithill/bruni? They had the best starts out of anyone in ac75s, and relatively few tactical mistakes...

Taking 3 races (very nearly 5) off the rocketship that was etnz is no small feat

I agree spithill/Bruni did an amazing job, at the moment they might be the best AC duo in the world. 

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6 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

That would be so cool! A bit risky though, but yes I know what you meant. :D 
 

Without the useless bowsprit will they have to rename the AC75’s to AC68’s? And what ‘legal’ Prot implications would that have? Maybe they will have just selfie-sticks? 

Maybe call them according to their LWL? :lol:

1 minute ago, Tornado-Cat said:

One of the most crucial point are the foils, will they keep exactly the same rule ? surely not, so how test the good foil if we don't know the foil rule ?

For the moment the team could practice crew work. Or LR and AM get together and practice starts and races (oh my, how I would love this!!!).

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2 minutes ago, Blitzkrieg9 said:

Nah.  The naming nomenclature isn't standard. For example, the AC72 is significant longer than the AC75.

AC72: 86ft LOA, 72ft LWL.

AC75: 75ft LOA, 62 LWL.

The name is just whatever you want to call it. Kinda. 

Also, the next AC75 will still have a bowsprit for media equipment but it won't be functional for carrying a foresail. 

So you can name a Class anything you want? Lol

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1 minute ago, Stingray~ said:

Approximately 3.145927M at 37deg AWA in 14TWS? :D 

It will take some time to know it by heart, but then it sounds special. A bit like the names some celebrities give their children.

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1 hour ago, southseasbill said:

Max not happy:

"“A dual event would be a disaster for the whole America's Cup world, as well as a farce,” Sirena told Corriere della Sera."

 

Clearly not so, because it wouldn’t be a disaster for ETNZ or Ineos depending on who won. 

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10 hours ago, jaysper said:

Nah, sorry it was in a documentary about F1 a good number of years ago when people watched these funny contraptions called TVs. 

However it showed that F1 drivers didn't have reaction times beyond the ordinary but rather could anticipate what was coming next and prepare for it much better.

From memory the big difference for F1 drivers, and others doing similar things like fighter pilots, is the ability to multi task. Drive, know where you are, plan for gear change/braking, where other cars are and how they affect you, talk on the radio. The ability to have all these processes running without compromising any off them sets them apart. Seems it is quite a simple test that can sort out if you have any chance of success being a top driver.

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A bit of a shower thought, but wouldn't confirming the ac75 for two cycles actually harm the defender? Seeing as teams not taking part in ac37 have 6-8 unbroken years to develop a boat without having to worry about actually racing it (conditional on funding, of course). I feel like it'd be similar to what's happening now in f1, where some teams are forsaking the current season to instead have an extra year of development for 2022.

Also, teams not in ac37 don't have to abide by any restrictions regarding the number of boats they can build up till ac38

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16 minutes ago, mako23 said:

Clearly not so, because it wouldn’t be a disaster for ETNZ or Ineos depending on who won. 

Nothing seems to depend on who wins, so wtf? It’s simply an ACWS three day weekend event, but with only two boats.. Yawn! 

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1 hour ago, dg_sailingfan said:

The Beauty of SailGP is that it is OD similar to the Volvo Ocean Race 2017/2018 so SailGP Season 2 will be won by the best Sailing Team and not who has the best Design & Fastest Boat.

Indeed. Which is why the two should never be confused, or worse, fucked with.

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4 minutes ago, crashtack said:

A bit of a shower thought, but wouldn't confirming the ac75 for two cycles actually harm the defender? Seeing as teams not taking part in ac37 have 6-8 unbroken years to develop a boat without having to worry about actually racing it (conditional on funding, of course). I feel like it'd be similar to what's happening now in f1, where some teams are forsaking the current season to instead have an extra year of development for 2022.

Also, teams not in ac37 don't have to abide by any restrictions regarding the number of boats they can build up till ac38

Could certainly be an advantage - develop, build and test what you want for a couple of years. The disadvantage being you need to trust the winner will abide by a clause that is not enforceable. Even if the boat stays the same, will 38 be in Auckland? Have you made a dog for the new venue.

It will certainly be a huge advantage to NZ, as the most likely winners. They will know what is going to happen and can fuck with the other teams.

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6 minutes ago, Gissie said:

It will certainly be a huge advantage to NZ, as the most likely winners. They will know what is going to happen and can fuck with the other teams.

They can, and likely will again, start designing to the new Rule that only they are privy to. It may already have started..

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6 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

They can, and likely will again, start designing to the new Rule that only they are privy to. It may already have started..

More than likely. The only danger is they break the boat and the Poms win. Seems a silly risk, unless it is being forced on them by Emirates.

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4 minutes ago, Gissie said:

More than likely. The only danger is they break the boat and the Poms win. Seems a silly risk, unless it is being forced on them by Emirates.

So what if the Poms win? Sounds like nothing changes, so how the hell can you try sell it as an actual Cup Match? May as well award the winner that silly trophy Rennie has a photo of, somewhere.. 

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5 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

So what if the Poms win? Sounds like nothing changes, so how the hell can you try sell it as an actual Cup Match? May as well award the winner that silly trophy Rennie has a photo of, somewhere.. 

Did winning the cup during the 12m/IACC era also mean nothing?

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4 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

So what if the Poms win? Sounds like nothing changes, so how the hell can you try sell it as an actual Cup Match? May as well award the winner that silly trophy Rennie has a photo of, somewhere.. 

Anyone that thinks the Poms will not keep it in the solent if they win is dreaming. The clause is not enforceable, the cup is full of defenders grabbing any advantage they can. So Auckland and ETNZ would be given the finger. In all likelihood they would also chose a different COR to help the move.

Maybe Prada would step up...

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1 minute ago, Gissie said:

Anyone that thinks the Poms will not keep it in the solent if they win is dreaming. The clause is not enforceable, the cup is full of defenders grabbing any advantage they can. So Auckland and ETNZ would be given the finger. In all likelihood they would also chose a different COR to help the move.

Maybe Prada would step up...

Omg that would be glorious. That would be like a triple or quadruple backstab!

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3 minutes ago, crashtack said:

Did winning the cup during the 12m/IACC era also mean nothing?

It means nothing if you immediately give the loser control of where and in what the next event is. Big difference between deciding to go with the flow and keep the 12m and having no choice at all.

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3 minutes ago, Blitzkrieg9 said:

Omg that would be glorious. That would be like a triple or quadruple backstab!

Shit yeah, would be a great addition to the history of the cup. :lol:

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1 hour ago, cbulger said:

No, I don't have the data, but Peter and company have to have spent 10x more time developing speed than BA has put in over the last decade.

2 hours ago, cbulger said:

Glenn, Peter and Blair have 1000% more experience in foiling boats

That is provably incorrect. Ainslie started sailing foiling boats for AC34, at a time that Pete was sailing non foiling AC45's, and has been helming development foiling AC boats ever since. He has put in significantly more hours sailing AC foilers than the NZ guys. You seem to have forgotten how much time NZ didn't sail leading up to AC35 and even for AC36, they had less time on the water than the other teams. Even if you add in the time spent by the NZ boys sailing Moths and A's, I still cannot see them having done more time, never mind 1000% or 10 times. As for ability, with Oracle, Ainslie was the only helm capable of taming the first boat - everybody else who tried failed badly. Since then, every time boats have been equal, Ainslie has schooled everybody else, including Burling, Outeridge, Spithill and Slingsby. His record suggests that put him in any of the AC boats and he will get it round a course faster than anybody else could get it around a course. Let's see what happens in the SailGP.

It would seem that Ainslie's weakness is that while he can get the best out of any boat, he might not be the best at the development side of things. I think where the NZrs excel is the ability of the sailing team to contribute to the design.

 

 

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2 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Ainslie has consistently performed better in a OD Class. In the 2011-2013 ACWS when he first made leaps with his Morgan Stanley Ben Ainslie Racing Team he finished 3rd although they were later disqualified because de Ridder altered their Boat.

During the 2015/2016 ACWS when it was held in the OD AC45F Class Ainslie won + he won 4 of the 9 Individual Events that were contested.

And finally once he signed up to SailGP with INEOS he trounced everyone in Sydney incl. Outerridge and Slingsby.

The more OD Design Components AC37 has the better for Ben.

Another way to look at it is that in equal boats, Ben is very, very difficult to beat. But not even the best sailor can repeatedly win with a slower boat in the AC, and he had a slower boat in AC 36.

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2 minutes ago, SimonN said:

That is provably incorrect. Ainslie started sailing foiling boats for AC34, at a time that Pete was sailing non foiling AC45's, and has been helming development foiling AC boats ever since. He has put in significantly more hours sailing AC foilers than the NZ guys. You seem to have forgotten how much time NZ didn't sail leading up to AC35 and even for AC36, they had less time on the water than the other teams. Even if you add in the time spent by the NZ boys sailing Moths and A's, I still cannot see them having done more time, never mind 1000% or 10 times. As for ability, with Oracle, Ainslie was the only helm capable of taming the first boat - everybody else who tried failed badly. Since then, every time boats have been equal, Ainslie has schooled everybody else, including Burling, Outeridge, Spithill and Slingsby. His record suggests that put him in any of the AC boats and he will get it round a course faster than anybody else could get it around a course. Let's see what happens in the SailGP.

It would seem that Ainslie's weakness is that while he can get the best out of any boat, he might not be the best at the development side of things. I think where the NZrs excel is the ability of the sailing team to contribute to the design.

 

 

+1. Sydney SailGP in 2020 was proof. Sure, he had "his own guys", but considering BA absolutely wiped the floor with everyone on his first event, including Nate and Tom who had been sailing the f50s for a full season more (and dominating), anyone discounting Benny as a "non-foiler" is talking out their ass.

11 minutes ago, Gissie said:

It means nothing if you immediately give the loser control of where and in what the next event is. Big difference between deciding to go with the flow and keep the 12m and having no choice at all.

If there's nothing enforceable in the agreement, it's still all up to the winner.

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