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The AC 37 has started, news and rumours


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10 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

I don't think so, Verdier was working on the AC72 foils, on the AC50 that won, and is the original designer of the AC75.

I don't think you can overstate the importance of a key leadership figure such as Bernasconi.

You can have amazing talent and fuck it all up if the leadership and team culture are fucked.

I think INEOS are a reasonable indicator of this.

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I’m not calling this out for the sake of ostracizing you, nor to play PC police on a forum that is notorious for the opposite of that. I could just hit ignore, delete or whatever. I’m calling this out

Hilarious to watch Kiwis who've been around since AC35 twist themselves into intellectual pretzels to give ETNZ a pass on what they screamed bloody murder about when Oracle did it. Even Oracle di

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8 minutes ago, jaysper said:

I don't think you can overstate the importance of a key leadership figure such as Bernasconi.

You can have amazing talent and fuck it all up if the leadership and team culture are fucked.

I think INEOS are a reasonable indicator of this.

I disagree that ANY of these teams were fucked, in any way. The big surprise is how damn competitive this racing was, in 1st Gen boats. Wind range guesses were a big part this time but hopefully designs will converge on that front, some. 

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5 minutes ago, jaysper said:

I see you liking my comment about Bernasconi @strider470.

Wouldn't be because he's got an Italian surname would it? LOL!

There should be a surname nationality rule, IMHO.

And I would like to have the Leonardo's Gioconda back to Italy as well

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8 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

I disagree that ANY of these teams were fucked, in any way. The big surprise is how damn competitive this racing was, in 1st Gen boats. Wind range guesses were a big part this time but hopefully designs will converge on that front, some. 

INEOS required a hail mary pass after the the Xmas racing. Lucky for them they nearly pulled it off, cos if they hadn't improved I reckon Ratcliffe might have pulled the pin.

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2 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

From https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/americas-cup/124666503/americas-cup-team-nzs-champion-boat-already-a-design-dinosaur

bold mine

The fascination now is in where the next regatta is held. The talk of a one-off challenge in Britain between Team New Zealand and Team UK, as early as next year, with a return to a full regatta in Auckland in 2024 could push things further in favour of the Kiwis and Brits.

Team UK’s billionaire backer Sir Jim Ratcliffe is adamant they would need a new boat to be competitive with Team New Zealand.

If both syndicates got into a fresh build for their two-team 37th edition of the Cup, they’d take a huge design advantage into the quick development phase for the 38th edition in 2024.

Aww that’s a shame..

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8 minutes ago, jaysper said:

I see you liking my comment about Bernasconi @strider470.

Wouldn't be because he's got an Italian surname would it? LOL!

Such a shame he is British.. INEOS nab him under an expanded nationality rule and you have holroyd back? ;) 

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7 minutes ago, strider470 said:

There should be a surname nationality rule, IMHO.

And I would like to have the Leonardo's Gioconda back to Italy as well

Well that'd be no good cos I'd be off to Germany.

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5 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Such a shame he is British.. INEOS nab him under an expanded nationality rule and you have holroyd back? ;) 

Yeah, nah.

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19 minutes ago, jaysper said:

I don't think you can overstate the importance of a key leadership figure such as Bernasconi.

You can have amazing talent and fuck it all up if the leadership and team culture are fucked.

I think INEOS are a reasonable indicator of this.

Guillaume Verdier invented the concept, designed the boat and the foils, he was not 1 but 3 steps ahead of all the other ones giving TNZ a massive advantage.

Bernasconi wrote the rules and headed the team.

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2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Guillaume Verdier is the key of kiwi success last 3 ACs, and not the sailors, the team that hires him will have a good shot at the cup.

Why? Because you'd rather choose to believe GV, being a Frenchman, did all the design work than accept that Kiwi's were just as responsible? Haters gonna hate.

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2 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Guillaume Verdier invented the concept, designed the boat and the foils, he was not 1 but 3 steps ahead of all the other ones giving TNZ a massive advantage.

Bernasconi wrote the rules and headed the team.

Fuck you're a troll. Provide the fucking link to this info or shut the fuck up.

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It’s like multi vs mono, foiling vs displacement, all the crap that somehow becomes binary around here. All can provide good racing. 
 

These designers have their own specialties, there is no obvious ‘who is smarter than who.’ 

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1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

Fuck you're a troll. Provide the fucking link to this info or shut the fuck up.

Back here F yourself ? you are the prototype of the insecure kiwi. :)

Go and listen, if you can understand.

https://voilesetvoiliers.ouest-france.fr/regate/coupe-de-l-america/america-s-cup-guillaume-verdier-du-vendee-globe-a-la-coupe-de-l-america-sur-tous-les-fronts-16505d9a-7daf-11eb-a530-8257a05e6295?fbclid=IwAR1NxsAj3wAuWdzn6_P7iVTxshZyq76ZeZcZfnogKPj0O9F0JBzZQrROne8

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1 minute ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Cute... I'll just put up a French interview that no one can understand...

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2 hours ago, sfigone said:

Note that NZs VMG mode was lower and faster whilst LR's was higher and slower, which I think was more affected by dirty air.

Near the end of the match, the Kiwis actively avoided LR's weapon - their high mode. LR won all the pinching contests.

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2 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Cute... I'll just put up a French interview that no one can understand...

^^ Go and find a translator and STFU or go in find my traduction in the Boat comparison thread.

BTW, it's the 3 rd time I tell it to you. :)

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Can they not make an Isle of Wight challenge an open invite fleet race with some points that carry over to the subsequent challenge proper in Auckland - and new challengers can be offered a chance to progress direct by sailing and competition or even a wildcard entry to a Challenger pre-selection.  Older version boats in the isle race could be given a handicap?

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33 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

Near the end of the match, the Kiwis actively avoided LR's weapon - their high mode. LR won all the pinching contests.

I think they avoided it in the middle. However towards the end they seemed to be pointing just as well IMO.

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19 minutes ago, Eiar said:

Can they not make an Isle of Wight challenge an open invite fleet race with some points that carry over to the subsequent challenge proper in Auckland - and new challengers can be offered a chance to progress direct by sailing and competition or even a wildcard entry to a Challenger pre-selection.  Older version boats in the isle race could be given a handicap?

Sure they can and that would be great. But that's not what is being proposed.

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5 minutes ago, jaysper said:

I think they avoided it in the middle. However towards the end they seemed to be pointing just as well IMO.

TR seemed to do better to leeward, although in race 9 they couldn't shake LR off the line, and got smoked on that long port tack when to windward, but yeah I agree, they did end up pointing better. 

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47 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

^^ Go and find a translator and STFU or go in find my traduction in the Boat comparison thread.

BTW, it's the 3 rd time I tell it to you. :)

This interview says nothing about him "inventing the AC75 class" or "inventing the foils" so again, you're full of shit.

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41 minutes ago, DayTripper said:

Is there an actual documented proposal? Where would one find it, if so?

Not yet. Only quotes in the media.

But it's not just one person or one media outlet.

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5 hours ago, Gissie said:

The NZ boat could hang in there while in dirty air, Prada was screwed when in the same position. The difference wasn't great, but it sure was there.

This is true. It's because the NZ boat was more powerful and the LR boat was more efficient. There was not a difference when they were not affecting each other. That was shown over and over again.

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2 hours ago, Forourselves said:

This interview says nothing about him "inventing the AC75 class" or "inventing the foils" so again, you're full of shit.

You really don't know the story of the AC 75,  and where did I say "inventing the foils" ? Dumbass.

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35 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

You really don't know the story of the AC 75,  and where did I say "inventing the foils" ? Dumbass.

You said he "invented the concept, designed the boat and the foils"

"Bernasconi wrote the rules and headed the team"

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1 minute ago, Forourselves said:

You said he "invented the concept, designed the boat and the foils"

"Bernasconi wrote the rules and headed the team"

Yes, Verdier designed the boat and the foils, Bernasconi wrote the rules. Listen and translate.

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1 minute ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Yes, Verdier designed the boat and the foils, Bernasconi wrote the rules. Listen and translate.

Ridiculous. ETNZ has a design team of 30 people. GV is not the only person who designed the boat and foils.

You wanna hate on Kiwi's fine. But at least get your facts straight troll.

 

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1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

Ridiculous. ETNZ has a design team of 30 people. GV is not the only person who designed the boat and foils.

You wanna hate on Kiwi's fine. But at least get your facts straight troll.

 

I did not say he did everything by himself, read the story. Idiot.

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2 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

I did not say he did everything by himself, read the story. Idiot.

Then what you should've said was he was part of the ETNZ design team that designed the boat. But you didn't, whether intentionally or accidentally, you omitted the part where he was part of the NZ design team led by Dan Bernasconi... idiot.

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14 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Then what you should've said was he was part of the ETNZ design team that designed the boat. But you didn't, whether intentionally or accidentally, you omitted the part where he was part of the NZ design team led by Dan Bernasconi... idiot.

Unsecured Kiwidiot, GV designed the boat, Bernasconi and the team worked on the details. He is the key of kiwi success during last 3 ACs and he is not kiwi. Tough for you, but real.

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12 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Unsecured Kiwidiot, GV designed the boat, Bernasconi and the team worked on the details. He is the key of kiwi success during last 3 ACs and he is not kiwi. Tough for you, but real.

Fucking troll. I'm not the insecure one. You are. You're the one who can't bring himself to admit that GV, as good as he is, is just one part of a big Kiwi team. As much as Elise Beavis, and Matt Kensington are. GV was simply one part, one member of the Kiwi design team, led by Dan Bernasconi. He is as key as everyone else is. So go back to crying into your tea you moron.

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38 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

I did not say he did everything by himself, read the story. Idiot.

You said this: "Verdier designed the boat and the foils" that statement says exactly that.

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So the Squadron works in mysterious ways.

Apparently the IOW MP has notified the Secretary of Sport and relevant bodies with the Gov recognising opportunities for mutual benefit. ETNZ are locked into talks and have 90 days to respond - less as this was a few days ago.

Bearing in mind 2022 is not that far away in terms of organisation for a publically funded event.

 

And JR is scoping NZ for a significant business investment and its not fracking.

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10 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Guillaume Verdier invented the concept, designed the boat and the foils, he was not 1 but 3 steps ahead of all the other ones giving TNZ a massive advantage.

Bernasconi wrote the rules and headed the team.

This is a silly argument you persist with, presumably in an attempt to downplay a Kiwi achievement.

It's the same as claiming landing a man on the moon was not a USA achievement because the aerospace engineer and chief architect of the vehicle that got them there was German.

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2 hours ago, marlowe said:

It's the same as claiming landing a man on the moon was not a USA achievement because the aerospace engineer and chief architect of the vehicle that got them there was German.

 

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13 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Guillaume Verdier invented the concept, designed the boat and the foils, he was not 1 but 3 steps ahead of all the other ones giving TNZ a massive advantage.

Bernasconi wrote the rules and headed the team.

GV certainly didn't invent the concept, but they took an existing concept and wrote some rules around it

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7 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

Holroyd, a packet of biscuits and we pay his air fair? 

Sold! Wait, what?!? LOL!

But seriously, I think Holroyd is treated pretty unfairly.

But for an extra knot or two of breeze and the boat he oversaw the design of would have won in 2013.

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6 hours ago, marlowe said:

This is a silly argument you persist with, presumably in an attempt to downplay a Kiwi achievement.

It's the same as claiming landing a man on the moon was not a USA achievement because the aerospace engineer and chief architect of the vehicle that got them there was German.

No, if it had been to downplay the kiwis I would have mentioned the Emiratis money and the Australian skipper. The reason I mentioned it was that a new team hiring Guillaume Verdier now could have a good shot at the next cup. I don't know at all who he is going to sign with this time or even work on AC boats, he is pretty busy with ocean racers. By extension now, there are 3 or 4 designers that could bring any new team quickly on the map.

 

 

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16 hours ago, Eiar said:

Can they not make an Isle of Wight challenge an open invite fleet race with some points that carry over to the subsequent challenge proper in Auckland - and new challengers can be offered a chance to progress direct by sailing and competition or even a wildcard entry to a Challenger pre-selection.  Older version boats in the isle race could be given a handicap?

No because Ratty would like the Cup, please.

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23 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

 ... a new team hiring Guillaume Verdier now could have a good shot at the next cup. 

 

Not only that, but - killing two birds with one stone - this would undoubtedly be the most cost effective way to hobble TNZ. That’s why I see him being lured by Alinghi: both proven modus operandi and payback

 

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11 minutes ago, Xlot said:

https://www.sail-world.com/news/236281/Americas-Cup-Sole-challenger-creates-opportunity

After a modicum of pro forma fence sitting, RG predictably gets down to serious  TNZ ass kissing

The 1:1 match would actually benefit excluded teams, just imagine! (cannot cite Goebbels because it upsets Rennie, but still ...)

 

Thanks, but you can cite Goebbels, as long as you don't endorse the Evil. And I know you don't.

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39 minutes ago, Xlot said:

https://www.sail-world.com/news/236281/Americas-Cup-Sole-challenger-creates-opportunity

After a modicum of pro forma fence sitting, RG predictably gets down to serious  TNZ ass kissing

The 1:1 match would actually benefit excluded teams, just imagine! (cannot cite Goebbels because it upsets Rennie, but still ...)

 

Se ciò accadesse godrei come un riccio. Perdere la AC38 per essere stati troppo ingordi... Chi troppo vuole, nulla stringe.

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

No, if it had been to downplay the kiwis I would have mentioned the Emiratis money and the Australian skipper. The reason I mentioned it was that a new team hiring Guillaume Verdier now could have a good shot at the next cup. I don't know at all who he is going to sign with this time or even work on AC boats, he is pretty busy with ocean racers. By extension now, there are 3 or 4 designers that could bring any new team quickly on the map.

 

 

Who cares where the money comes from.

Pete was skipper this time.

GV was just part of the design team led by Dan Bernasconi, who was the REAL key to success.

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1 hour ago, Xlot said:

After a modicum of pro forma fence sitting, RG predictably gets down to serious  TNZ ass kissing

I normally really appreciate RG's stuff, but you can kinda see a little bit of Dalton's semen dribbling out of his mouth right now, can't you?

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On 3/27/2021 at 11:44 AM, EYESAILOR said:

Surely his sailing talent is rarer than his management talent.  He is surely one of the 0.,001% of the best sailors in the world right now .   As a manager?  I dont know where he ranks but I suspect a great manager can be found.  

Find a great CEO and let Ben focus entirely on the sailing.

I did think that Mozzy's idea of hiring Ian Percy as CEO made a lot of sense.

1st - if the CEO cant change drivers, you dont have a CEO - even Ian Percy would eb a figure head if this is a love affair between JR and BA.

2nd - Gotta get your head out of the past.  Could Ben win a competitive race in a 49er, Moth, Nacra 17 or an A-Cat?   I'm not so sure.  This test has been predictive of the results of the last 2 AC's and will be for the next 2.  Your 0.001% may be way way way off.  Without the small boat h-p/foiling chops, you cant tell if your design is right until its too late.

3rd - Results say Ben has become a 0.0001% fund raiser and we know he is enough of a hard ass (unlike TH) to be a CEO.

If Ben wants to maximize the chances of being the guy who wins the AC for the UK, which I'd love to see, then he also needs to stop living off past glory and step off the helm.

 

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24 minutes ago, jaysper said:

I normally really appreciate RG's stuff, but you can kinda see a little bit of Dalton's semen dribbling out of his mouth right now, can't you?

Yeah, great point - what have Kiwi AC CEO's ever accomplished - Blake, Coutts and Dalton - punters, the lot of them...... other than winning the Cup in 1995, 2000, 2003, 2007, 2010, 2013, 2017 and 2021.

Wait that's every Cup this century!

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12 minutes ago, cbulger said:

Yeah, great point - what have Kiwi AC CEO's ever accomplished - Blake, Coutts and Dalton - punters, the lot of them...... other than winning the Cup in 1995, 2000, 2003, 2007, 2010, 2013, 2017 and 2021.

Wait that's every Cup this century!

And.....so....that means journalists should stop any semblance of critical reporting?

Sure, seems legit.

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1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

Who cares where the money comes from.

Pete was skipper this time.

GV was just part of the design team led by Dan Bernasconi, who was the REAL key to success.

Difficult to discuss with an unsecure uninformed poster. What a waste.

Glen is listed as skipper and trimmer in the TNZ page. I don't expect you to get it though.

Glen: "As skipper and wing trimmer he was a core member of the sailing team and was still deeply involved in the on-going sailing team development and design process of the 35th America’s Cup."

https://emirates-team-new-zealand.americascup.com/en/team/26_GLENN-ASHBY.html

 

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18 hours ago, Forourselves said:

This interview says nothing about him "inventing the AC75 class" or "inventing the foils" so again, you're full of shit.

Evidence in English :

Quote

You contributed to the development of the new AC75 class rule. What are the crucial factors that will make the difference between the various designs? 

I had met Howard Spencer in New Zealand. He was a client who asked me to design an unconventional monohull to sail in Auckland Bay. Ray Davis (the Emirates Team New Zealand’s tactician, ed.’s note) and I had a preliminary design in mind. Then Ray said to me: “Guillaume, you have to take away the keel. There’s too much in the water.” In the end, I said we could try to do something like Martin Defline’s twin-keeled monohull.  So I added lead to the foils and they were one and a half times more efficient than foils coupled with a canting keel. We presented the idea when the AC75 rule was created and it was then developed by the entire team. Crucial elements are the mainsail, the hull form and the foils. The rule for the new boat is quite open. 

Source : https://top-yachtdesign.com/exclusive-interview-guillaume-verdier-flying-frenchman/

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2 hours ago, Xlot said:

Not only that, but - killing two birds with one stone - this would undoubtedly be the most cost effective way to hobble TNZ. That’s why I see him being lured by Alinghi: both proven modus operandi and payback

 

Absolutely, Alinghi could buy a B1 for training the crew and if Verdier was their designer they could build a better B2, and kill two birds at the same time. I like your expression !

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3 hours ago, Xlot said:

https://www.sail-world.com/news/236281/Americas-Cup-Sole-challenger-creates-opportunity

After a modicum of pro forma fence sitting, RG predictably gets down to serious  TNZ ass kissing

The 1:1 match would actually benefit excluded teams, just imagine! (cannot cite Goebbels because it upsets Rennie, but still ...)

 

Advantages for excluded teams...And then the winner of AC37 changes the Rule after all. Checkmate.

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27 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Advantages for excluded teams...And then the winner of AC37 changes the Rule after all. Checkmate.

If they do, any new team that started developing would been dead. They have to publish a definitive class rule as soon as possible for AC38 if they hope to attract challengers.

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3 hours ago, Xlot said:

https://www.sail-world.com/news/236281/Americas-Cup-Sole-challenger-creates-opportunity

After a modicum of pro forma fence sitting, RG predictably gets down to serious  TNZ ass kissing

The 1:1 match would actually benefit excluded teams, just imagine! (cannot cite Goebbels because it upsets Rennie, but still ...)

 

One very strong reason, why the Dog match is a bad idea for ETNZ 

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Difficult to discuss with an unsecure uninformed poster. What a waste.

Glen is listed as skipper and trimmer in the TNZ page. I don't expect you to get it though.

Glen: "As skipper and wing trimmer he was a core member of the sailing team and was still deeply involved in the on-going sailing team development and design process of the 35th America’s Cup."

https://emirates-team-new-zealand.americascup.com/en/team/26_GLENN-ASHBY.html

 

At the top of that page he is listed as Trimmer. 
I guess it is all in the interpretation but I read it as he was skipper in AC 35. 

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6 minutes ago, amc said:

At the top of that page he is listed as Trimmer. 
I guess it is all in the interpretation but I read it as he was skipper in AC 35. 

He plays a very important role in the boat, in one of the ACWS races he told off PB for a mistake. 

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8 minutes ago, mako23 said:

While no protocol exists what’s to stop AM or LR going to water tank and testing different foil designs. 

I'm sure they know. One of the reason there will be no 1 - 1 match, in my opinion

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22 minutes ago, mako23 said:

He plays a very important role in the boat, in one of the ACWS races he told off PB for a mistake. 

Absolutely he does, that wasn’t the purpose of my comment. 

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2 hours ago, cbulger said:

1st - if the CEO cant change drivers, you dont have a CEO - even Ian Percy would eb a figure head if this is a love affair between JR and BA.

2nd - Gotta get your head out of the past.  Could Ben win a competitive race in a 49er, Moth, Nacra 17 or an A-Cat?   I'm not so sure.  This test has been predictive of the results of the last 2 AC's and will be for the next 2.  Your 0.001% may be way way way off.  Without the small boat h-p/foiling chops, you cant tell if your design is right until its too late.

3rd - Results say Ben has become a 0.0001% fund raiser and we know he is enough of a hard ass (unlike TH) to be a CEO.

If Ben wants to maximize the chances of being the guy who wins the AC for the UK, which I'd love to see, then he also needs to stop living off past glory and step off the helm.

 

Your suggestion to CEO is a bit different from Mozzy and Eye who agree with you that BA took on too much .

You are suggesting that (i) Ben should be replaced as a helm and (ii) That he would make a superb CEO and team principal along the lines of Russell Coutts.

(i) As to helm, who do you think is a better foiling AC helm in the UK?

Ben has been dominant in the one design foiling series in the GP 50s and AC45s, beating top ranked AC helms and foiling moth helms along the way.  More particularly, who would you replace him with ?  Goody?   Goody is a terrific person and talented helm, very analytical but honestly Ben is better instinctive sailor.  Giles? Same. Outstanding sailor but only if Ben is not on the racecourse. If Ben is there, he beats Giles.  Dylan Fletcher ?....lot of foiling talent and currently best moth sailor in the UK but Ben still outperformed him in the GP 50. On the data, who is the better sailor than Ben that would replace Ben?  In particular Ben has broad range of skill set using the high tech tools that the modern AC helm has available.   I think Team GBR would be nuts to pull Ben off the helm while he is still at peak of his abilities and has accumulated a decade of AC high tech exeperience.   I just cannot fathom who would be faster.  GBR has a deep talent pool of sailors but Ben is a GOAT category, once in 3 generations. I truly think you underestimate how extraordinary and unusual his talent is.

(ii) Even if we assume you found an equal or greater talent to helm, what evidence do you have that Ben has a good skill set as General Manager/CEO?  While he was team principal, did they design a couple of brilliant boats that were only just off NZ pace?  Nope. Were the logistics great?

I am not saying he might not be a good CEO.....but I think the CEO role is where Team GBR could be strengthened. This is where I think fresh blood is needed and I agree that Rat could probably help find the right person.

You need to convince me that there is a better helm and that there is not a better CEO than Ben Ainslie. I think that there are better CEOs and I cant think of compelling better helm.

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16 minutes ago, strider470 said:

I'm sure they know. One of the reason there will be no 1 - 1 match, in my opinion

yeah I think you are correct. ETNZ would be cutting their own throat with this Dog match. 

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36 minutes ago, amc said:

At the top of that page he is listed as Trimmer. 
I guess it is all in the interpretation but I read it as he was skipper in AC 35. 

He is quoted in numerous places as "skipper" in AC 36.  However I dont see that title on the website any more.

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6 minutes ago, Mambo Kings said:

He is quoted in numerous places as "skipper" in AC 36.  However I dont see that title on the website any more.

Correct, he is listed as skipper for example here:

"His role in 2017 was as mainsail trimmer as well as skipper and he is also a key part of the decision making process onboard. Many talk about him as something of a talisman figure for the team and once again for this edition of the Cup he has clearly been a key member of the setup.

He is once again the team’s skipper and mainsail trimmer – though exactly what his role entails onboard is a bit of a mystery"

https://www.yachtingworld.com/americas-cup/americas-cup-key-firgures-130463

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6 minutes ago, Kiwing said:

They are a team first not hierarchical "whose bigger than whom"??

Wisdom makes the decision?  

It's true that Verdier was saying that, at least for the design of the boat.

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Something weird about this proposed Jack Off Cup:

 

If it is proposed that after the AC37 JO Cup happens then AC38 will happen, regardless the winner, in AUK in 2024.
 

Q: If AUK ‘24 has already been resolved by the time the JOC was announced, then why even try hold it as a real Cup? I guess there’s some limited ‘promotional’ value versus selling it as an ACWS style exhibition, but the illegality and other complications must surely outweigh the difference..  

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12 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Something weird about this proposed Jack Off Cup:

 

If it is proposed that after the AC37 JO Cup happens then AC38 will happen, regardless the winner, in AUK in 2024.
 

Q: If AUK ‘24 has already been resolved by the time the JOC was announced, then why even try hold it as a real Cup? I guess there’s some limited ‘promotional’ value versus selling it as an ACWS style exhibition, but the illegality and other complications must surely outweigh the difference..  

I dont think they have to decide where to hold 38, but if they host a JO cup in 22 and want to have other teams participate in 38, then they do have to agree what boat they are going to use in 38, so that other teams can start their development process in a timely way. Announcing a class in late 2022 for an event in 2024 is simply not enough time for teams to prepare.

I agree with those who post that if there are just 2 teams competing in 37, then a side agreement saying they will host 38 in AC75s prior to considering a challenge is not directly a breach of D0G. As long as they are not specifically considering a challenge, then they can tell the world "whoever the challenger is, we are going to mutually consent to AC75s , so you can reasonably contemplate developing AC75s....we will be taking steps to avoid a DoG ambush challenge in a class outside the AC75."  The DoG prevents this being cast iron.....but that is always the risk in the AC.  For example there was nothing to stop LR and ETNZ mutually consenting at the last minute to change the class again in 36, but AM and Ineos knew with a degree of reliability that ETNZ and LR were committed to the AC75.

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Just now, Mambo Kings said:

I dont think they have to decide where to hold 38, but if they host a JO cup in 22 and want to have other teams participate in 38, then they do have to agree what boat they are going to use in 38, so that other teams can start their development process in a timely way. Announcing a class in late 2022 for an event in 2024 is simply not enough time for teams to prepare.

I agree with those who post that if there are just 2 teams competing in 37, then a side agreement saying they will host 38 in AC75s prior to considering a challenge is not directly a breach of D0G. As long as they are not specifically considering a challenge, then they can tell the world "whoever the challenger is, we are going to mutually consent to AC75s , so you can reasonably contemplate developing AC75s....we will be taking steps to avoid a DoG ambush challenge in a class outside the AC75."  The DoG prevents this being cast iron.....but that is always the risk in the AC.  For example there was nothing to stop LR and ETNZ mutually consenting at the last minute to change the class again in 36, but AM and Ineos knew with a degree of reliability that ETNZ and LR were committed to the AC75.

Personally I dont favor a 1 vs 1 in 2022......but if they do......I think there needs to be a dgeree of certainty about class of boat for 38.

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2 hours ago, Mambo Kings said:

Ben has been dominant in the one design foiling series in the GP 50s and AC45s

Ben is a great sailor - but the AC is wildly different from the GP 50 and the AC 45 series.  The AC has always been a speed development game where the event is won before it starts. It is now a high-performance/foiling speed development game. The experience at the top level for 49er, Nacra 17, Moth and A Cats is what’s most relevant.

Ben lacks this resume, it’s too late and he’s too busy to build it.

Did you notice where Bruni is this week?

Time to grab some very young talent from the UK Nacra squad and invest.

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5 hours ago, cbulger said:

1st - if the CEO cant change drivers, you dont have a CEO - even Ian Percy would eb a figure head if this is a love affair between JR and BA.

2nd - Gotta get your head out of the past.  Could Ben win a competitive race in a 49er, Moth, Nacra 17 or an A-Cat?   I'm not so sure.  This test has been predictive of the results of the last 2 AC's and will be for the next 2.  Your 0.001% may be way way way off.  Without the small boat h-p/foiling chops, you cant tell if your design is right until its too late.

3rd - Results say Ben has become a 0.0001% fund raiser and we know he is enough of a hard ass (unlike TH) to be a CEO.

If Ben wants to maximize the chances of being the guy who wins the AC for the UK, which I'd love to see, then he also needs to stop living off past glory and step off the helm.

 

We're going to see who (all) helm the Ineos SGP cat next month and through that season. It's a cat foiler, not a mono foiler though. 

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5 hours ago, mako23 said:

While no protocol exists what’s to stop AM or LR going to water tank and testing different foil designs. 

Why bother? Be much better off developing their simulator tools, no?

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1 hour ago, NeedAClew said:

We're going to see who (all) helm the Ineos SGP cat next month and through that season. It's a cat foiler, not a mono foiler though. 

But it's all OD, Clew. So, we'll get a measure of relative helm ability, just the same.

Didn't think I'd be saying this anytime soon - but I'm looking forward to SailGP, with the newly signed teams.

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20 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

Interesting they missed out the bit where Emirates weren't continuing their sponsorship. Be grim going if they do,   but "all a game of Poker" as he says.

Here's the text from T&S

"I had Grant on the phone again yesterday (Tuesday). He told me there were a lot of options, but that isn't the one he favours. In fact, it is all a game of poker to get the NZ government to pay up, which explains why Team New Zealand, who are losing Emirates as their sponsor, are threatening to hold the Cup abroad. The most likely outcome is a post Covid America's Cup organised quickly in November 2022, here in Auckland, with the present teams, so that they don't get taken apart. "

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9 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Why bother? Be much better off developing their simulator tools, no?

Plus they will truck loads of data from the other teams and wind conditions.

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54 minutes ago, chesirecat said:

Interesting they missed out the bit where Emirates weren't continuing their sponsorship. Be grim going if they do,   but "all a game of Poker" as he says.

Here's the text from T&S

"I had Grant on the phone again yesterday (Tuesday). He told me there were a lot of options, but that isn't the one he favours. In fact, it is all a game of poker to get the NZ government to pay up, which explains why Team New Zealand, who are losing Emirates as their sponsor, are threatening to hold the Cup abroad. The most likely outcome is a post Covid America's Cup organised quickly in November 2022, here in Auckland, with the present teams, so that they don't get taken apart. "

It it was a game of poker they would not go public about it, and Troublé spoke with the agreement of Dalton, so there is another reason.

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2 hours ago, cbulger said:

Ben is a great sailor - but the AC is wildly different from the GP 50 and the AC 45 series.  The AC has always been a speed development game where the event is won before it starts. It is now a high-performance/foiling speed development game. The experience at the top level for 49er, Nacra 17, Moth and A Cats is what’s most relevant.

Ben lacks this resume, it’s too late and he’s too busy to build it.

Did you notice where Bruni is this week?

Time to grab some very young talent from the UK Nacra squad and invest.

1. The UK does a fantastic job at developing its young talent and has a pipeline of sailors that the US would die for.  2. The US is the nation which needs helming talent. AM's American afterguard consisted of keelboat sailors. Terry was a very successful J24 sailor.  Goody is British. DB was New Zealander, nothing special in the Finn dinghy but succesful in keelboats. 

3. In contrast Ben has an outstanding resume in dinghies and foiling.  Following him are folks like Dylan Fletcher (current UK International Moth champion)  Paul Goodison (3x International Moth world champion) and a slew of other high performance sailors. The Brits sail high performance boats and have many more development classes and development designers than almost anywhere else on the planet. While down from the heyday , they still have classes like the Merlin rocket, National 12, International moth etc etc and a culture of understanding tweaking boats. It is no coincidence that V (NZ's designer) studied naval architecture at Southampton University. 

4. Cecco Bruni is a terrific talent and has been sailing moths for some time,finishing in the top 3 in world championships, but he finished behind Paul Goodison and in competition, Paul Goodison has finished behind Ben Ainslie.

I would not lose any sleep over the British talent pool and their ruthless ability to select the best axe for the job.

What the UK needs to do is to find the right CEO to pull it all together and find the right design team.

The uS in contrast seems to be executing above average in design but badly needs to develop sailing talent.

 

The GP 50 is much closer to AC sailing than the moth.  The AC75 and GP50s have complex controls and are much faster than moths.   Rome Kirby has been doing okay in the moth but has not managed to translate those skills to bigger, faster, and more complex AC and GP 50 machinery.  I think he will but AM did their long term development a disfavor by putting TH and EB on the boat rather than bringing along Rome and Brad etc.

I still cannot see a set of results in OD foiling where the Brits are off the pace. Moths and GP50s would indicate that Ben in the right equipment could be blazingly hard to beat.

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