The AC 37 has started, news and rumours

[Tornado-Cat 1,082]

2 hours ago, Forourselves said:

So all 27 design teams didn’t have any foreigners at all involved in any way with any of those projects?

Well, it seems that some kiwis were involved in your AC75 aside from the French and Brit main designers, the bot was also designed an american consulting company, Mc Kensey. 

Ah, and I don't challenge the fact that you are kiwi.

[Forourselves 1,690]

21 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Well, it seems that some kiwis were involved in your AC75 aside from the French and Brit main designers, the bot was also designed an american consulting company, Mc Kensey. 

Ah, and I don't challenge the fact that you are kiwi.

Lesson learned then huh? Trolling doesn’t pay off.

[Tornado-Cat 1,082]

3 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Lesson learned then huh? Trolling doesn’t pay off.

[Forourselves 1,690]

Just now, Tornado-Cat said:

Apology accepted.

[Tornado-Cat 1,082]

3 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Apology accepted.

Good to see that you are finally happy to agree that TNZ main designers are french and english, I mean Guillaume and Dan.

[Forourselves 1,690]

2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Good to see that you are finally happy to agree that TNZ main designers are french and english, I mean Guillaume and Dan.

And what exactly is the definition of "Main designer"? lol

There is no such role as main designer lol

Can you actually prove Dan isn't a Kiwi? He is a Permanent resident, and does at least meet the eligibility requirements for NZ citizenship.

More than likely Dan actually has NZ Citizenship.

 

[Rennmaus 3,060]

6 hours ago, Forourselves said:

And what exactly is the definition of "Main designer"? lol

There is no such role as main designer lol

Can you actually prove Dan isn't a Kiwi? He is a Permanent resident, and does at least meet the eligibility requirements for NZ citizenship.

More than likely Dan actually has NZ Citizenship.

 

The proof is on the website of the team that doesn't lie. 

[Forourselves 1,690]

7 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

The proof is on the website of the team that doesn't lie. 

There is no proof on there. All it says is he is originally from Britain. It says nothing about citizenship.

And besides, what relevance does it have at all? The only reason he is hanging onto Dan Bernasconi's Nationality is so he can say Kiwi's can't design AC boats!

Never mind that Dan Bernasconi is actually the first Non Kiwi born AC boat designer. Apart from Doug Peterson obviously, but Laurie Davidson was as critical a part of that design as Doug was.

NZ has Hall of Fame AC designers, Bruce Farr, Laurie Davidson, and Tom Schnakenburg.

Not to mention guys like Nick Holroyd that are also Kiwi's designing AC boats in other teams.

@Tornado-Cat and his trolling comments can get fucked.

[NeedAClew 1,786]

So other than some regatta requirements,, it it blood purity or ethnic superiority or pride in the educational system or pride in ability to attract skilled workers that makes the "nationality" so important?

I mean we Amurrican firsters are right proud of our ability to attract Pamela Anderson, Billy Idol and Neil Young.

But really this is a crazy squabble. Stir crazy maybe you all in the antipodes?

[Forourselves 1,690]

1 hour ago, NeedAClew said:

So other than some regatta requirements,, it it blood purity or ethnic superiority or pride in the educational system or pride in ability to attract skilled workers that makes the "nationality" so important?

I mean we Amurrican firsters are right proud of our ability to attract Pamela Anderson, Billy Idol and Neil Young.

But really this is a crazy squabble. Stir crazy maybe you all in the antipodes?

I agree. It is a crazy squabble. Design team Nationalities mean nothing. Zip, zero. Not to the teams, not in the rules, not in anything, yet one mans nationality in a team of 30 designers has become an issue. Dans Nationality is irrelevant. Yet @JALhazmat and @Tornado-Cat are caught up on it for some reason like it makes some sort of difference. 
 

[Sailbydate 3,605]

7 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

I agree. It is a crazy squabble. Design team Nationalities mean nothing. Zip, zero. Not to the teams, not in the rules, not in anything, yet one mans nationality in a team of 30 designers has become an issue. Dans Nationality is irrelevant. Yet @JALhazmat and @Tornado-Cat are caught up on it for some reason like it makes some sort of difference. 
 

Suggestion then, 4Ourselves. If you shut the fuck up, they might too!

[Tornado-Cat 1,082]

Just published in Oman, I don't know if it's that new.

Team NZ retain America’s Cup in home waters

“Team New Zealand has once again made us all so proud by retaining America’s Cup as New Zealand’s cup,” Ardern said in a statement.

 

“We want to see it all over again in 2023.”

https://www.omanobserver.om/article/2012/Sports/team-nz-retain-americas-cup-in-home-waters

[IPLore 1,116]

 

On 5/16/2021 at 4:59 PM, Forourselves said:

So all 27 design teams didn’t have any foreigners at all involved in any way with any of those projects?

That is correct.  US designers designed all of the American defense boats for a long time.  It is a more recent phenomena to use international designers. Here is a sample:

Stars and Stripes 87 : Britton Chance , Bruce Nelson David Pedrick

Stars and Stripes 88 Chance & Morrelli

Freedom  Olin Stephens et al

In fact Olin designed no less than 4 successful AC defendants

Weatherly : Phillip Rhodes

America cube lists Doug Peterson as designer but i seem to recall some others involved.

[IPLore 1,116]

3 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Never mind that Dan Bernasconi is actually the first Non Kiwi born AC boat designer. Apart from Doug Peterson obviously, but Laurie Davidson was as critical a part of that design as Doug was.

 

NZ has some truly great designers who played key roles in designing AC boats BUT at the same time, NZ has reached out and included non-NZ designers on every single one of their winning designs.  Name me a kiwi boat that has won the AC and I will name the Non Kiwi born designer who was either co-designer or lead. Dan follows in  a tradition of the kiwis locating the best talent wherever they find it

[Sailbydate 3,605]

31 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Just published in Oman, I don't know if it's that new.

Team NZ retain America’s Cup in home waters

“Team New Zealand has once again made us all so proud by retaining America’s Cup as New Zealand’s cup,” Ardern said in a statement.

 

“We want to see it all over again in 2023.”

https://www.omanobserver.om/article/2012/Sports/team-nz-retain-americas-cup-in-home-waters

March 17?

Like the proverbial vintage cheddar.

[Tornado-Cat 1,082]

13 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

March 17?

Like the proverbial vintage cheddar.

Oh ah, old Camenbert. I read the 17, which we are here, and thought it was from this month. Now you need good wine for this cheese.

[Sailbydate 3,605]

2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Oh ah, old Camenbert. I read the 17, which we are here, and thought it was from this month. Now you need good wine for this cheese.

A nice white bordeaux, maybe? ;-)

[Tornado-Cat 1,082]

19 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

A nice white bordeaux, maybe? ;-)

You seem to know my taste, I love Bordeaux blanc or Touraine with seafood, and Bordeaux rouge with my cheese, as old and strong as possible

 

[Forourselves 1,690]

6 hours ago, IPLore said:

NZ has some truly great designers who played key roles in designing AC boats BUT at the same time, NZ has reached out and included non-NZ designers on every single one of their winning designs.  Name me a kiwi boat that has won the AC and I will name the Non Kiwi born designer who was either co-designer or lead. Dan follows in  a tradition of the kiwis locating the best talent wherever they find it

EVERY team has reached out and included non-NATIONAL designers. The fact is, there aren't any pure Americas Cup design teams anymore. Why? Because they're no longer designing boats. Design is split into Aero specialists, Hydro specialists, hydraulic specialists, electronic specialists, sail specialists, foil specialists, software design etc.

Oracle Racing was led by an Aussie, Ian Burns.

, and in 2010, a Dutchman, Dirk Kramers, 

Team NZ was led by Doug Peterson and Laurie Davidson in 1995 NZL and US

2000 Team NZ (D) Laurie Davidson NZL

2000 Luna Rossa Challenge (C) Doug Peterson

2003 Team NZ (D) Tom Schnakenburg and  Mike Drummond NZL

2003 Alinghi (C) Rolf Vrolijk GER

2007 Alinghi (D) Rolf Vrolijk GER

2007 Emirates Team NZ (C) Nick Holroyd

2010 BMW Oracle Racing (C) Ian Burns AUS

2010 Alinghi (D) Dirk Kramers

2013 Oracle Team USA (D) Ian Burns AUS

2013 Emirates Team NZ (C) Nick Holroyd NZL

2017 Oracle Team USA (D) Grant Simmer AUS

2017 Emirates Team NZ (C) Dan Bernasconi UK

2021 Emirates Team NZ (D) Dan Bernasconi UK

2021 Luna Rossa Challenge Horacio Carabelli BRA Martin Fischer GER

 

 

 

[Forourselves 1,690]

7 hours ago, IPLore said:

NZ has some truly great designers who played key roles in designing AC boats BUT at the same time, NZ has reached out and included non-NZ designers on every single one of their winning designs.  Name me a kiwi boat that has won the AC and I will name the Non Kiwi born designer who was either co-designer or lead. Dan follows in  a tradition of the kiwis locating the best talent wherever they find it

If you look at all of the current teams, none are led by a National.

INEOS Nick Holroyd NZ

American Magic Marcelino Botin ESP

Luna Rossa Horacio Carabelli BRA and Martin Fischer GER

Emirates Team NZ Dan Bernasconi UK.

[JALhazmat 1,612]

9 hours ago, Forourselves said:

I agree. It is a crazy squabble. Design team Nationalities mean nothing. Zip, zero. Not to the teams, not in the rules, not in anything, yet one mans nationality in a team of 30 designers has become an issue. Dans Nationality is irrelevant. Yet @JALhazmat and @Tornado-Cat are caught up on it for some reason like it makes some sort of difference. 
 

Only caught on it after you denied Dan was British. 
 

seemed an incredible own goal from you, so it’s an easy stick to beat you with. Simples.  

[NeedAClew 1,786]

Kinda pitiful US not listed. No wonder Boeing isn't a plus and they use Airbus. Not that that worked so well lately either. 

[Forourselves 1,690]

11 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

Only caught on it after you denied Dan was British. 
 

seemed an incredible own goal from you, so it’s an easy stick to beat you with. Simples.  

Like I said, until you can prove he is NOT a NZ citizen, you can't say he isn't a Kiwi.

[JALhazmat 1,612]

'citizen' was the bit you added in the last few days.

 

the original question that you gloriously fucked up was about nationality, stick to the original point eh;)

IF we go down your rabbit hole until you CAN prove he IS a NZ citizen you cant say he is.. not that I was questioning citizenship in the first place

[IPLore 1,116]

14 hours ago, Forourselves said:

EVERY team has reached out and included non-NATIONAL designers.

Oracle Racing was led by an Aussie, Ian Burns.

, and in 2010, a Dutchman, Dirk Kramers, 

Team NZ was led by Doug Peterson USA and Laurie Davidson in 1995 NZL and US

2000 Team NZ (D) Laurie Davidson NZL and Clay Oliver (USA)

2000 Luna Rossa Challenge (C) Doug Peterson

2003 Team NZ (D) Tom Schnakenburg Clay Oliver (USA)and  Mike Drummond NZL

2003 Alinghi (C) Rolf Vrolijk GER

2007 Alinghi (D) Rolf Vrolijk GER

2007 Emirates Team NZ (C)Marceleno Botin (ESP), Clay Oliver (USA) and Nick Holroyd

2010 BMW Oracle Racing (C) Ian Burns AUS

2010 Alinghi (D) Dirk Kramers

2013 Oracle Team USA (D) Ian Burns AUS

2013 Emirates Team NZ (C) Nick Holroyd NZL and Dan Bernasconi UK

2017 Oracle Team USA (D) Grant Simmer AUS

2017 Emirates Team NZ (C) Dan Bernasconi UK

2021 Emirates Team NZ (D) Dan Bernasconi UK

2021 Luna Rossa Challenge Horacio Carabelli BRA Martin Fischer GER

 

 

 

 

On 5/17/2021 at 2:21 PM, Forourselves said:

Dan Bernasconi is actually the first Non Kiwi born AC boat designer. Apart from Doug Peterson obviously, but Laurie Davidson was as critical a part of that design as Doug was.

I have highlighted in red above, AC Boat designers who were not born in New Zealand.

As you can see there were several AC boat designers prior to Dan who were not born in New Zealand.  Not that there is a problems with that, as you rightly point out almost all recent teams use international design teams....but one just wanted to be sure one is accurate.

[IPLore 1,116]

13 hours ago, Forourselves said:

If you look at all of the current teams, none are led by a National.

INEOS Nick Holroyd NZ

American Magic Marcelino Botin ESP

Luna Rossa Horacio Carabelli BRA and Martin Fischer GER

Emirates Team NZ Dan Bernasconi UK.

Correct .

FWIW, the only designer "born in Kiwi" using your definition, is Nick.

Design is an international game and the best teams find the bets designers where they can!

[RobG 816]

On 5/17/2021 at 4:02 AM, Forourselves said:

Australia II wouldn't have won without foreign designers

Complete bullshit.

Claims by Dutch naval architect Peter van Oossanen to have designed the winged keel were never substantiated, though he did assist with measurements and performance analysis of its tank tests. Lexen had been designing, building and testing winged underwater appendages as far back as 1958.

If there was any truth to the claims of foreign involvement in the design, the NYYC would have had Australia II disqualified in a flash.

[IPLore 1,116]

4 hours ago, RobG said:

Complete bullshit.

Claims by Dutch naval architect Peter van Oossanen to have designed the winged keel were never substantiated, though he did assist with measurements and performance analysis of its tank tests. Lexen had been designing, building and testing winged underwater appendages as far back as 1958.

If there was any truth to the claims of foreign involvement in the design, the NYYC would have had Australia II disqualified in a flash.

Yup. We have already pushed back on this.  

To be fair, I think it very likely that the testing of various keel shapes and hull shapes at MARIN in the Netherlands substantially helped Ben finalize the design of the keel. Peter and JS were hired as consultants and did a lot of work on testing keel shapes nut Bertrand said that Ben Lexen drove the process and certainly asked for a variety of winglets to be tested.

Peter Van O says that Ben was not at the tanks when they tested the shape that worked best. I dont think that matters. It was Ben's plan to do testing> It was Ben that selected the results he liked best. Ben was reportedly very hands on. The best designers seek the best ideas wherever they can find them and then incorporate them as a whole in their design.

The debate is pointless anyway. Foreign designers are now clearly allowed. All of NZ's winning boats had foreign designers ...which is absolutely fine.  4U then stated that all prior AC winning boats had foreign designers which is simply not true and not worth fighting about.

[dg_sailingfan 79]

Per Jack Griffin: AC37! What has been announced and what still has to be announced

• The Protocol will be published by mid-November 2021.
• The venue will be announced by mid-September.
• Dates will be announced by mid-November.
• The AC75 yachts will be used for the next two America’s Cup cycles, and agreement to this is a condition of entry.
• Teams may build only one new AC75 yacht for AC37.
• A new Crew Nationality Rule will require 100% of the race crew to hold the passport of the country of their team’s yacht club, or to have met the physical presence rule that was in effect for AC36. “Emerging Nations” will be given a quota of non-nationals in their race crew.
• Unlike AC36, there will be one Event Authority to run all racing and manage all commercial activities. This was first used by Alinghi for the 2007 America’s Cup and again by Oracle in 2013 and 2017. For AC36, the Challenger of Record organized all the racing except the America’s Cup Match, and presenting sponsor Prada controlled much of the commercial aspects of the event.
• The Defender and the Challenger of Record are exploring cost reduction measures, hoping to attract more challengers.

[IPLore 1,116]

53 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Per Jack Griffin: AC37! What has been announced and what still has to be announced

• The Protocol will be published by mid-November 2021.
• The venue will be announced by mid-September.
• Dates will be announced by mid-November.
• The AC75 yachts will be used for the next two America’s Cup cycles, and agreement to this is a condition of entry.
• Teams may build only one new AC75 yacht for AC37.
• A new Crew Nationality Rule will require 100% of the race crew to hold the passport of the country of their team’s yacht club, or to have met the physical presence rule that was in effect for AC36. “Emerging Nations” will be given a quota of non-nationals in their race crew.
• Unlike AC36, there will be one Event Authority to run all racing and manage all commercial activities. This was first used by Alinghi for the 2007 America’s Cup and again by Oracle in 2013 and 2017. For AC36, the Challenger of Record organized all the racing except the America’s Cup Match, and presenting sponsor Prada controlled much of the commercial aspects of the event.
• The Defender and the Challenger of Record are exploring cost reduction measures, hoping to attract more challengers.

where are you seeing this?

[NeedAClew 1,786]

If true, I am bored already. 

Unless of course the USA counts as an emerging nation and we buy up the NZ designers and pack the crew with mercenary sailors.  EB had the right idea. 

[Sailbydate 3,605]

Question for the officionardo(e)s?

Given all the AC37 post Cup circumstances aligned, is it mandatory (compulsory) for a Defender to accept a challenge from ANY qualifying club?

If so, assuming a club was to make a legitimate AC38 challenge, how would an AC75 acceptance clause ( 'The AC75 yachts will be used for the next two America’s Cup cycles, and agreement to this is a condition of entry) stack up against the Deed, supposing the challenging AC38 club was NOT an AC37 entrant?

[dg_sailingfan 79]

37 minutes ago, IPLore said:

where are you seeing this?

It's Griffins Newsletter! You have to subscribe to it!

[porthos 390]

1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:

Question for the officionardo(e)s?

Given all the AC37 post Cup circumstances aligned, is it mandatory (compulsory) for a Defender to accept a challenge from ANY qualifying club?

If so, assuming a club was to make a legitimate AC38 challenge, how would an AC75 acceptance clause ( 'The AC75 yachts will be used for the next two America’s Cup cycles, and agreement to this is a condition of entry) stack up against the Deed, supposing the challenging AC38 club was NOT an AC37 entrant?

Generally, yes, a defender has to accept a challenge from a qualifying club. The Deed indicates that any qualifying club "shall be entitled to the right of sailing a match of this Cup." 

The Deed makes pretty clear that the club challenging for the Cup gets to pick its vessel. In other words, the defender cannot dictate what vessel the challenger must use. The NYSC addressed this issue at length in the Mercury Bay opinion (albeit from the defender's side, but the same rules apply to the challenger).

All of which is say, a defender cannot control the yacht to be used in a future AC. Now, the parties can always agree to use the same yacht for subsequent ACs, but if a challenger balks down the road, the Deed will always prevail. 

I do think that any attempt by ETNZ/RNZYS to require AC37 teams to agree to use the AC75 in AC38 would be ripe for a court challenge if anyone were so inclined. I'm not sure anyone would be however. Moreover, all the court would do is invalidate the requirement that the AC75 be used in AC38, which wouldn't change anything for AC37.

Edit: and a defender could certainly enter into an agreement with challengers in AC37 whereby they all agree to use AC75's in AC38, but if they breach that agreement, then they have to pay a truckload of money as a financial incentive to stick with AC75s in AC38. That would be fine and probably accomplish the same thing.

[Jethrow 407]

3 minutes ago, porthos said:

Generally, yes, a defender has to accept a challenge from a qualifying club.

 

Has to accept ONE challenge from a qualifying club. No requirement to accept multiple challenges...

[porthos 390]

1 minute ago, Jethrow said:

Has to accept ONE challenge from a qualifying club. No requirement to accept multiple challenges...

Not only is there no requirement that a defender accept multiple challenges, the Deed specifically prohibits a defender from considering another challenge while the current one is pending. It's why NYYC's challenge is DOA.

[porthos 390]

1 hour ago, dg_sailingfan said:

It's Griffins Newsletter! You have to subscribe to it!

It's in a Scuttlebutt article as well. 

Article

[Horn Rock 1,712]

Good news Pommy AC fans, Magnus says you've got the next Cup in the bag.......a done deal......Y'all must be feeling pretty good about that...finally the AC is going back to its spiritual home after such a long absence. Magnus also says they should secure the services of Wussell because he's a genius......

 

Magnus Wheatley - "Ineos Team UK will win the America’s Cup – and that’s not just my opinion but the opinion of many right in the know at the America’s Cup. It’s a wall of money, a tsunami, a Japanese-cartoon-esque tidal wave at a time when bottom-lines are under more scrutiny than ever before. It simply will happen. Believe it."

 

All eyes on Italy and Plymouth. All eyes on Goodison and listen out for the Russell rumour-mill gathering pace. And all eyes on the team forming that will win the next America’s Cup.

You read that right.

https://rule69blog.wordpress.com/2021/05/20/goody-goody/?fbclid=IwAR0wUmPxpynQmH4jG0h7NR0Na4hlp34LZ8zNqQ1N2jsj8bd-V6WRjfj3mT4

[Forourselves 1,690]

7 hours ago, IPLore said:

Yup. We have already pushed back on this.  

To be fair, I think it very likely that the testing of various keel shapes and hull shapes at MARIN in the Netherlands substantially helped Ben finalize the design of the keel. Peter and JS were hired as consultants and did a lot of work on testing keel shapes nut Bertrand said that Ben Lexen drove the process and certainly asked for a variety of winglets to be tested.

Peter Van O says that Ben was not at the tanks when they tested the shape that worked best. I dont think that matters. It was Ben's plan to do testing> It was Ben that selected the results he liked best. Ben was reportedly very hands on. The best designers seek the best ideas wherever they can find them and then incorporate them as a whole in their design.

The debate is pointless anyway. Foreign designers are now clearly allowed. All of NZ's winning boats had foreign designers ...which is absolutely fine.  4U then stated that all prior AC winning boats had foreign designers which is simply not true and not worth fighting about.

So which is it!? Are we talking about the entire design team or just the head of design/ design co ordinator? Because  if we’re only talking about Head of design/ Design Co Ordinator, the guy who “drove the design” Dan Bernasconi is the only foreign head of design Team NZ has had since its inception in 1987, save for Doug Peterson who was co design co ordinator with Laurie Davidson in 95. 

[Forourselves 1,690]

9 hours ago, IPLore said:

Yup. We have already pushed back on this.  

To be fair, I think it very likely that the testing of various keel shapes and hull shapes at MARIN in the Netherlands substantially helped Ben finalize the design of the keel. Peter and JS were hired as consultants and did a lot of work on testing keel shapes nut Bertrand said that Ben Lexen drove the process and certainly asked for a variety of winglets to be tested.

Peter Van O says that Ben was not at the tanks when they tested the shape that worked best. I dont think that matters. It was Ben's plan to do testing> It was Ben that selected the results he liked best. Ben was reportedly very hands on. The best designers seek the best ideas wherever they can find them and then incorporate them as a whole in their design.

The debate is pointless anyway. Foreign designers are now clearly allowed. All of NZ's winning boats had foreign designers ...which is absolutely fine.  4U then stated that all prior AC winning boats had foreign designers which is simply not true and not worth fighting about.

You can't just say one person, one man, in this case, a foreigner designed the AC75 by himself, because that statement is factually incorrect.

Because your statement is factually incorrect, and simply untrue, it makes the rest of your statement factually incorrect and simply untrue.

[dg_sailingfan 79]

@Horn Rock

Wheatley is such a Clown!

# 1 They never get Russell Coutts!

# 2 Ben Ainslie is incapable of leading an AC Challenger to victory.

# 3 They never win the Cup!

[Horn Rock 1,712]

It's a big call from Magnus, especially since we don't where and when the next cup will take place. Still, you gotta love that English optimism......

[Rennmaus 3,060]

6 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

@Horn Rock

Wheatley is such a Clown!

# 1 They never get Russell Coutts!

# 2 Ben Ainslie is incapable of leading an AC Challenger to victory.

# 3 They never win the Cup!

You took the bait hook, line and sinker, lol. 

[sailman 412]

On 5/20/2021 at 9:15 AM, RobG said:

Complete bullshit.

Claims by Dutch naval architect Peter van Oossanen to have designed the winged keel were never substantiated, though he did assist with measurements and performance analysis of its tank tests. Lexen had been designing, building and testing winged underwater appendages as far back as 1958.

If there was any truth to the claims of foreign involvement in the design, the NYYC would have had Australia II disqualified in a flash.

Fairly well documented that the keel and bustle were from the Dutch testing and design

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2009/oct/14/lexcen-americas-cup-keel-australia

Documented here:

https://www.amazon.com/Australia-II-Americas-Cup-untold-ebook/dp/B01DFTM6JA/ref=nodl_

[MaxHugen 1,136]

14 minutes ago, sailman said:

Fairly well documented that the keel and bustle were from the Dutch testing and design

"Claims that Peter van Oossanen was the designer of the Australia II's keel instead of by Ben have been strongly rejected by John Bertrand and by John Longley, a key member of the Australia II team using documentary evidence."

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Lexcen#America's_Cup

Guess you just have to choose who you prefer to believe. Van Oossanen did a lot of analytical work on the design, but who originated the concept and initial design?

"Australia II's reserve skipper, James Hardy, said that while "there is no doubt that [Van Oossanen] did a lot of work", Lexcen was the creator, who had adopted aerodynamic elements on his revolutionary 18ft skiff in the late 1950s."

Your choice.

 

[sailman 412]

8 hours ago, MaxHugen said:

"Claims that Peter van Oossanen was the designer of the Australia II's keel instead of by Ben have been strongly rejected by John Bertrand and by John Longley, a key member of the Australia II team using documentary evidence."

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Lexcen#America's_Cup

Guess you just have to choose who you prefer to believe. Van Oossanen did a lot of analytical work on the design, but who originated the concept and initial design?

"Australia II's reserve skipper, James Hardy, said that while "there is no doubt that [Van Oossanen] did a lot of work", Lexcen was the creator, who had adopted aerodynamic elements on his revolutionary 18ft skiff in the late 1950s."

Your choice.

 

Read Sloof’s book, it’s pretty well done and he documents the design concepts nicely.

[barfy 1,302]

On 5/21/2021 at 7:40 AM, NeedAClew said:

If true, I am bored already. 

Unless of course the USA counts as an emerging nation and we buy up the NZ designers and pack the crew with mercenary sailors.  EB had the right idea. 

You could say you're emerging from the Shit show that was the orange menace?

[Stingray~ 2,262]

On 5/20/2021 at 2:45 PM, porthos said:

It's in a Scuttlebutt article as well. 

Article

From there:

The nationality rule is notable as it comes from two teams that can easily fulfill it. While the benefits are to heighten interest and promote excellence within the entrant’s country, the downside is it limits opportunity for sailors without an entrant in their country, or from team founders without sufficient national talent. Jack provides the history of nationality within the America’s Cup:

• There was no crew nationality rule in effect before the 1983 match.
• In 1851 America had a British pilot and six British sailors on board to help win the £100 Cup.
• In 1895 and 1899, it was headline news to have an all American crew on the the New York York Yacht Club defenders, but by 1901 they were back to hiring Scandinavian fishermen.
• After American sailor Andy Rose sailed as tactician with Alan Bond’s Australian challenger in 1977, the New York Yacht Club decreed, through an “interpretive resolution,” that all sailors and designers had to be “nationals.”
• By 2003 “nationality” was easy but expensive to acquire: by having a residence in the country for as little as 18 months.
• Nationality rules were dropped for the Cup matches in 2007, 2010 and 2013.
• For 2017, Oracle added back a requirement for one (!) of the six crew on the AC50’s to be a passport holder.
• Team New Zealand re-instituted a stricter nationality/residence rule for 2021, but only INEOS had 100% passport holders on board in Auckland.
• For the current cycle, AC37, the 2021 rule will be retained, but “emerging nations” will be allowed to have foreign sailors.

 

me: The 'constructed in the country of' DoG clause strongly suggests that if nationality rules are applied then it should be wrt designers and boat builders, not sailors. It was all about The Yacht. But the truth is, is that design and construction is now so globally ubiquitous that the clause is now too antiquated, it has become irrelevant. May as well leave it to the nationality of the backers, usually $B's. 

 

[Tornado-Cat 1,082]

5 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

me: The 'constructed in the country of' DoG clause strongly suggests that if nationality rules are applied then it should be wrt designers and boat builders, not sailors. It was all about The Yacht. But the truth is, is that design and construction is now so globally ubiquitous that the clause is now too antiquated, it has become irrelevant. May as well leave it to the nationality of the backers, usually $B's. 

 

Absolutely, it was supposed to be friendly competition between countries with Constructed In Country yachts. The nationality rules for sailors is pure propaganda, nationality rules should be for designers but with possibility to share data on Google Drive, One Drive, Teams, Slack, AWS, simply by We Transfer, it is impossible to enforce.

[chesirecat 713]

1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Absolutely, it was supposed to be friendly competition between countries with Constructed In Country yachts. The nationality rules for sailors is pure propaganda, nationality rules should be for designers but with possibility to share data on Google Drive, One Drive, Teams, Slack, AWS, simply by We Transfer, it is impossible to enforce.

Same for budget caps. If say Merc come to the party suppling services that can be awkward to handle let alone currency differentials. I found it somewhat naive of NYYC including budget caps in their proposal. 

[Sailbydate 3,605]

20 minutes ago, chesirecat said:

Same for budget caps. If say Merc come to the party suppling services that can be awkward to handle let alone currency differentials. I found it somewhat naive of NYYC including budget caps in their proposal. 

They were hoping to mitigate, Sir Jame's financial clout. Good luck with that.

[chesirecat 713]

3 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

They were hoping to mitigate, Sir Jame's financial clout. Good luck with that.

Yep, I get a feeling he's sussed the game and really knows where to spend prioritize the money and assets now. Merc came in late but they will have a handle on the AC, the ear of Jim R and plenty of data on the competitors. Wouldnt be surprised if they go for twin helm BA plus Goodison. Saw BA having quite chats with G post press conferences. I think Giles is really a helm full stop, being a tactician and part of big team is not really him me thinks.

Gary Jobson didn't rate NYYC's "challenge" antics and he's a shrewd operator, unlike TE who thought it was best thing since Kendal Mint Cake.

[porthos 390]

14 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

me: The 'constructed in the country of' DoG clause strongly suggests that if nationality rules are applied then it should be wrt designers and boat builders, not sailors. It was all about The Yacht. But the truth is, is that design and construction is now so globally ubiquitous that the clause is now too antiquated, it has become irrelevant. May as well leave it to the nationality of the backers, usually $B's. 

 

I'm not sure a court would ever read any nationality requirements into the deed with respect to sailors, designers, or builders. The Deed says nothing about nationalities of those people. It says the yacht must be constructed in the country of the challenger or defender. That's it. Under the plain language of the Deed, which the court would consider to be the best evidence of the drafter's intent, a defender/challenger could employ designers, builders, and sailors from other countries so long as the yacht was physically constructed in the country of the defender/challenger.  That would be Deed-legal.

Moreover, construing "constructed in the country" to mean that the defender/challenger must have its own citizens design and build the yacht would, in turn, require the court to craft a whole bunch of rules and requirements that are nowhere in the Deed.  For example, who is considered a citizen? Does the citizenship rule apply to everyone who even thought about or perhaps contributed to the design of a portion of the yacht, or just the person identified as the designer? 

You can see the rabbit hole that is. There is no way a court wants to craft on its own what would be a complicated set of nationality rules. That would amount to the court inserting itself into the process, create a bunch of value judgments, and basically rewriting a substantial part of the Deed. That is anathema to the legal process here. 

[Sailbydate 3,605]

8 hours ago, porthos said:

I'm not sure a court would ever read any nationality requirements into the deed with respect to sailors, designers, or builders. The Deed says nothing about nationalities of those people. It says the yacht must be constructed in the country of the challenger or defender. That's it. Under the plain language of the Deed, which the court would consider to be the best evidence of the drafter's intent, a defender/challenger could employ designers, builders, and sailors from other countries so long as the yacht was physically constructed in the country of the defender/challenger.  That would be Deed-legal.

Moreover, construing "constructed in the country" to mean that the defender/challenger must have its own citizens design and build the yacht would, in turn, require the court to craft a whole bunch of rules and requirements that are nowhere in the Deed.  For example, who is considered a citizen? Does the citizenship rule apply to everyone who even thought about or perhaps contributed to the design of a portion of the yacht, or just the person identified as the designer? 

You can see the rabbit hole that is. There is no way a court wants to craft on its own what would be a complicated set of nationality rules. That would amount to the court inserting itself into the process, create a bunch of value judgments, and basically rewriting a substantial part of the Deed. That is anathema to the legal process here. 

I agree, Porthos. In the context of the original Deed's writing, the 'competition' was rooted in the challenge between the USA and GB; who could design/build the fastest yacht (proved by winning). In those days, not a hell of a lot of yacht design IP was shared internationally - vastly different to today's yacht designing/building industry.

Today's 'nationality rule' (having zero bearing on the original Deed) is applied to sailors, to restrict competition by blocking the opportunity to strip talent assets. An excellent example of the Defender using their hard-fought right to stack the deck against future competition.

 

[Stingray~ 2,262]

11 hours ago, porthos said:

You can see the rabbit hole that is.

Agreed

[shebeen 466]

all this semantics over what is nationality just means the news cycle is slow. I wonder how far the emerging nation clause could be pushed?

The (insert developed nation ie.Swedes) could sign up a bunch of mercenaries, sail under the burgee of (insert developing nation ie. Kuwait), with an agreement to defend in Stockholm.

The AC is always alive when silly stuff is going through courts. I was surprised no one took the gap and filed a complaint against both Lazza and EB when they were not doing the "friendly competition" that the deed stipulates. that would have been a fun waste of lawyering.

[Ex-yachtie 1,622]

Auckland may lose the cup.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/americas-cup-auckland-governments-100m-bid-to-team-new-zealand-may-not-be-enough-to-secure-hosting-rights/NKLIO45H5GWYDXRKGBSITK5YYE/

[dg_sailingfan 79]

54 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

Auckland may lose the cup.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/americas-cup-auckland-governments-100m-bid-to-team-new-zealand-may-not-be-enough-to-secure-hosting-rights/NKLIO45H5GWYDXRKGBSITK5YYE/

If this is anywhere near true chances of a 1 - 1 in Cowes next year have considerably risen.

[IPLore 1,116]

1 hour ago, Ex-yachtie said:

Auckland may lose the cup.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/americas-cup-auckland-governments-100m-bid-to-team-new-zealand-may-not-be-enough-to-secure-hosting-rights/NKLIO45H5GWYDXRKGBSITK5YYE/

That is a lot of money. They can get more elsewhere? 

[dg_sailingfan 79]

8 minutes ago, IPLore said:

That is a lot of money. They can get more elsewhere? 

These Days 100M NZ$ isn't that much. I wonder if the Sheikhs in the UAE made a better offer. Would be fitting having the Soccer World Cup in the Middle East next year followed by the AC in 2023 or 2024!

100M NZ $ = 72,5M US$

I can very well understand that it's being rejected!

Ratcliffe or any of the rich Sheikhs in the UAE would probably see this offer by the NZ Government as "Peanuts".

[Priscilla 2,803]

6 minutes ago, IPLore said:

That is a lot of money. They can get more elsewhere? 

Considering all the infrastructure for another AC defence in Auckland is already in place and paid for by the public TNZ seeking $200m is a greedy piss take.

 

[NeedAClew 1,786]

Karma says they lose.  

[nroose 278]

8 hours ago, Priscilla said:

Considering all the infrastructure for another AC defence in Auckland is already in place and paid for by the public TNZ seeking $200m is a greedy piss take.

 

Yeah, but who in pro sports is not greedy? New York Yankees are one team in a league of 30, and have annual revenue of several hundred million. The video game league "League of Legends" generated revenue of 1.75 billion U.S. dollars in 2020. In the AC, somehow the host city is supposed to pony up. Not all cities are willing.

[trt131 268]

2 hours ago, nroose said:

Yeah, but who in pro sports is not greedy? New York Yankees are one team in a league of 30, and have annual revenue of several hundred million. The video game league "League of Legends" generated revenue of 1.75 billion U.S. dollars in 2020. In the AC, somehow the host city is supposed to pony up. Not all cities are willing.

But none of that money in the NYY came from the government or rate payers.

[36thLatitude 90]

As long as they remove NZ from the title if sailing in The Emirates because in my mind they would have "sold out".

[sailman 412]

Any chance that RNZYS takes the 100 mil and tells everyone else to screw off?

[JALhazmat 1,612]

51 minutes ago, sailman said:

Any chance that RNZYS takes the 100 mil and tells everyone else to screw off?

Cup belongs to them not GD so with any luck they might.. ;-) 

 

( just for giggles obvs) 

[dg_sailingfan 79]

AUCKLAND MAYOR PHILL GOFF MAY HAVE OVERPLAYED HIS HAND HERE

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/americas-cup-auckland-mayor-says-team-new-zealand-has-never-had-it-so-good/PTVX6IZF35ZJ4Q6ZYZ34Z664JY/

The article is behind the Paywall but Goff apparently took a dig at former NZ Prime Minister & Auckland Mayor Helen Clark who is now the patron of ETNZ.

[Sailbydate 3,605]

12 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

Cup belongs to them not GD so with any luck they might.. ;-) 

That would guarantee RNZYS a failed Defence...but I guess it's legally possible.

It surprises me how many here think this is somehow about GD's empire building, or feathering his own nest - and not a matter of survival. I mean, it's not like Sir James is going to spend a fucking fortune and then some for his next Challenge is it? So no need to be fully financed, to try and match for a successful Defence. 

[Sailbydate 3,605]

11 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

AUCKLAND MAYOR PHILL GOFF MAY HAVE OVERPLAYED HIS HAND HERE

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/americas-cup-auckland-mayor-says-team-new-zealand-has-never-had-it-so-good/PTVX6IZF35ZJ4Q6ZYZ34Z664JY/

The article is behind the Paywall but Goff apparently took a dig at former NZ Prime Minister & Auckland Mayor Helen Clark who is now the patron of ETNZ.

Ah, no Helen Clark is not and has never been Auckland Mayor. And I saw no reference to her in that article.

But I'm reliably informed Helen would love to be New Zealand's first President and the Labour Party are delving into the possibility of giving HRH Liz the flick in favour of a Republic. So, who knows, dg?

[nroose 278]

22 hours ago, trt131 said:

But none of that money in the NYY came from the government or rate payers.

I addressed that in the third sentence!

[Gissie 1,755]

47 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

That would guarantee RNZYS a failed Defence...but I guess it's legally possible.

It surprises me how many here think this is somehow about GD's empire building, or feathering his own nest - and not a matter of survival. I mean, it's not like Sir James is going to spend a fucking fortune and then some for his next Challenge is it? So no need to be fully financed, to try and match for a successful Defence. 

Not so much Dalts empire building as being an asshole. If he can't afford to play, tough. Tough on the team and supporters, but just life. It is a private pro racing team, time to start standing on their own feet.

To threaten NZ with fucking off if we, the tax and rate payers, don't give him what he demands. Time to let the team go.

[Gissie 1,755]

14 hours ago, sailman said:

Any chance that RNZYS takes the 100 mil and tells everyone else to screw off?

If Dalts tries to take the cup offshore this would be the best answer for the club.

Okay, they would have a piss poor defense, but at least they would keep some honour out of it all. If they let it move they will be treated as another lot of traitors.

[Sailbydate 3,605]

24 minutes ago, Gissie said:

Not so much Dalts empire building as being an asshole. If he can't afford to play, tough. Tough on the team and supporters, but just life. It is a private pro racing team, time to start standing on their own feet.

To threaten NZ with fucking off if we, the tax and rate payers, don't give him what he demands. Time to let the team go.

Name one modern America's Cup team financed by its CEO. 

[Sailbydate 3,605]

35 minutes ago, Gissie said:

If Dalts tries to take the cup offshore this would be the best answer for the club.

Okay, they would have a piss poor defense, but at least they would keep some honour out of it all. If they let it move they will be treated as another lot of traitors.

Absolute bollocks. The Club has to survive financially as well. High flying principles are all well and good - if you can afford them. 

[Gissie 1,755]

18 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Name one modern America's Cup team financed by its CEO. 

What a pathetic response, although it certainly used to happen.

Name one Americas Cup team that relies on their government to fund them.

 

[Gissie 1,755]

6 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Absolute bollocks. The Club has to survive financially as well. High flying principles are all well and good - if you can afford them. 

So the club will go broke without the cup?  You are dredging the murky bottom of the shit pond to justify holding a country to ransome.

The Waikato DHB had the balls to stand up to this shit, time Goff grew some and called them out.

[Forourselves 1,690]

5 minutes ago, Gissie said:

What a pathetic response, although it certainly used to happen.

Name one Americas Cup team that relies on their government to fund them.

 

ETNZ doesn't rely on the Government to fund them.

[Sailbydate 3,605]

1 minute ago, Gissie said:

What a pathetic response, although it certainly used to happen.

Name one Americas Cup team that relies on their government to fund them.

 

If TNZ cannot raise sufficient funding from National/Local Government, they'll have to look elsewhere and since no New Zealand $quillionaire (actually, I don't even think we have one) is putting up their hand, it will have to be offshore. Why would GD be expected to finance the team?

[Forourselves 1,690]

10 minutes ago, Gissie said:

So the club will go broke without the cup?  You are dredging the murky bottom of the shit pond to justify holding a country to ransome.

The Waikato DHB had the balls to stand up to this shit, time Goff grew some and called them out.

The problem is Goff stands to lose more than he's prepared to offer. The Tourism industry has taken a massive hit during the pandemic. The Americas Cup is the shot in the arm the Tourism/ hospitality/ Marine industries need to get off the ground again. The AC offers returns, it offers jobs, and revenue those industries wouldn't otherwise see. Is Goff prepared to sacrifice those things over his principles? I don't think so.

[Sailbydate 3,605]

8 minutes ago, Gissie said:

So the club will go broke without the cup?  You are dredging the murky bottom of the shit pond to justify holding a country to ransome.

The Waikato DHB had the balls to stand up to this shit, time Goff grew some and called them out.

No, RNZYS wouldn't go broke. They've been around almost as long as the AC, but for 20 years. But I doubt they'll want to back an underfunded team for their Defence, if TNZ decides it can/has to raise the necessaries offshore. That way, they'd have their best chance to be on the winning side of the ledger.

[Fiji Bitter 1,972]

I don't want to meddle in NZ politics, but Goff is opening his mouth 2 weeks too early.

And ultra right Pissy is supporting a labour Mayor!