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The AC 37 has started, news and rumours


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On Hamish Ross and the Discrimination Issue: This will be long, pedantic, and legal.  I apologize for the length; read at your own risk. Hamish Ross has recently claimed on multiple occasion

I’m not calling this out for the sake of ostracizing you, nor to play PC police on a forum that is notorious for the opposite of that. I could just hit ignore, delete or whatever. I’m calling this out

Hilarious to watch Kiwis who've been around since AC35 twist themselves into intellectual pretzels to give ETNZ a pass on what they screamed bloody murder about when Oracle did it. Even Oracle di

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1 hour ago, pusslicker said:

Interesting take. I would think that the poor me thing is for domestic consumption only as in previous campaigns and that Saudi's or anyone dealing in hundreds of millions of dollars wouldn't give a fuck either way.

You’re assuming someone wants to throw hundreds of millions of dollars at this.

It’s not “poor me.” It’s “we don’t waste money on frills like flying in private jets when flying commercial does the job for a fraction of the cost.”

Appearances mean a lot in this game.

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39 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

But Cork would not really care whether you are going to win would they. It's about the visitors for them, not the winning

Who better to sell the AC event to a municipality than the likes of GD, with his winning AC experience in these matters, is the point I was trying to make. 

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15 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Who better to sell the AC event to a municipality than the likes of GD, with his winning AC experience in these matters, is the point I was trying to make. 

I'm sure GD can be a very convincing seller but apparently the folks who would be flying over are Russell Greene and K Shoebie instead. If those  two are supposed to be better than the Origin Sports Group (and what did that OSG contract cost?) then why weren't they the ones in Europe and wherever for the past ten months? 

The 'Covid/flying restrictions' excuse for having no viable bids is a little questionable. More likely is that nobody wants to pay whatever OSG tried to sell them on. Hard to imagine these two could fly in on whatever plane and change any of that.

 

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11 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Who better to sell the AC event to a municipality than the likes of GD, with his winning AC experience in these matters, is the point I was trying to make. 

In the above posted article Dalton & Stuff Writer Johnstone mentioned Spanish Bid as a potentially workable solution because they could hold a Warm Up Event in Barcelona and the CSS & AC in Valencia!

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1 minute ago, Stingray~ said:

The 'Covid/flying restrictions' excuse for having no bids is a little questionable. More likely is that nobody wants to pay whatever OSG tried to sell them on.

 

I agree. Likely, GD's sales pitch has not been as well received as he'd hoped. But I'm pretty sure he's not done yet.

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@Sailbydate

Look Stingray can argue as much as he wants but right now Dunphys Bid ain't even close making it! Dalton made that pretty clear during the Stuff Piece I posted.

To have the AC in Auckland Dalton & Dunphy would need to mend some pretty big rifts & fences before they can have a serious talk about it.

It's obvious to me that Dunphy & Dalton can't stand each other at least for now.

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17 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

I agree. Likely, GD's sales pitch has not been as well received as he'd hoped. But I'm pretty sure he's not done yet.

Like I have suggested before, it is entirely possible that GD has big potential sponsorship contracts lined up from Irish companies, or from Irish-venue interested companies. The figures from the supposed Cork proposal trying to survive in the govt there are apparently about E100M in infrastructure and E50M in .. what did they call it, 'current-event' spending? It was not made clear in the Cork reporting that ETNZ is trying to make Ireland govt pay for an NZ Syndicate's defense. Leaving me to believe that the team funding would could from elsewhere, with it depending on it being held in Cork.

The infrastructure, like for example the railroad electrification, seemed far unrelated to a yacht race. It also seemed like a project they could 'pull forward' like what happened in Auckland for the waterfront but there are competing projects in Cork that folks want pulled forward instead. Annual budget allocation authorizations are only so big, they can't pull everything forward in time.

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I think the interesting question here is how long does Ineos remain patient with this process?

Nothing of what we've seen makes it seem like a deal that will satisfy TNZ's desire for cash is in the offing, potentially not even from Jeddah. 

Time is the most precious commodity in a cup campaign — even more than money. I'm sure at this point they're not overly worried and want a good event as much as anyone. 

But at some point the competitive factors always come to the fore. How long is Ratty going to be nice about it?

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23 minutes ago, idontwan2know said:

But at some point the competitive factors always come to the fore. How long is Ratty going to be nice about it?

It has crossed my mind (maybe GD's suspicious mind too) that Ratty is among the secret donors trying to get it all fucking moving along.. In Auckland.

About 2 weeks ago TE posted some (yes, completely unattributed) bullet points and among them was one that said GD owes Prada for non-performance. That could be a pressure point too if PB wants it held soon, in Auckland since it can easily host it. 

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10 minutes ago, idontwan2know said:

I think the interesting question here is how long does Ineos remain patient with this process?

Nothing of what we've seen makes it seem like a deal that will satisfy TNZ's desire for cash is in the offing, potentially not even from Jeddah. 

Time is the most precious commodity in a cup campaign — even more than money. I'm sure at this point they're not overly worried and want a good event as much as anyone. 

But at some point the competitive factors always come to the fore. How long is Ratty going to be nice about it?

While the Venue is no doubt important for the Challengers the most important piece of the Cup Campaign is the Protocol. As long as that doesn't get delayed Ratcliffe will likely play along.

Fact is, the Venue wasn't announced in the AC36 Protocol and kicked down the Road! There was even talk of holding AC36 in Italy if Dalton had not gotten a Deal for Auckland.

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5 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

While the Venue is no doubt important for the Challengers the most important piece of the Cup Campaign is the Protocol. As long as that doesn't get delayed Ratcliffe will likely play along.

Fact is, the Venue wasn't announced in the AC36 Protocol and kicked down the Road! There was even talk of holding AC36 in Italy if Dalton had not gotten a Deal for Auckland.

Not exactly. Here is the wording from the Protocol for AC 36:

4. THE MATCH.


4.1. The Match shall be held in the coastal waters of New Zealand in March 2021, or if RNZYS so elects (with the agreement of COR) in the coastal waters of the country of COR. The above date may be changed by COR/D if the Match venue is to be in the Northern Hemisphere and where required all other relevant dates in this Protocol shall be adjusted accordingly.


4.2. The selected venue and precise dates for the Match shall be announced by RNZYS by the 30th of August 2018.

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4 minutes ago, accnick said:

Not exactly. Here is the wording from the Protocol for AC 36:

4. THE MATCH.


4.1. The Match shall be held in the coastal waters of New Zealand in March 2021, or if RNZYS so elects (with the agreement of COR) in the coastal waters of the country of COR. The above date may be changed by COR/D if the Match venue is to be in the Northern Hemisphere and where required all other relevant dates in this Protocol shall be adjusted accordingly.


4.2. The selected venue and precise dates for the Match shall be announced by RNZYS by the 30th of August 2018.

The Venue wasn't officially announced until 30th August 2018!!!

And I stand by what I've said. The Protocol is much more important for additional Challengers than the Venue!

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3 minutes ago, accnick said:

Not exactly. Here is the wording from the Protocol for AC 36:

4. THE MATCH.


4.1. The Match shall be held in the coastal waters of New Zealand in March 2021, or if RNZYS so elects (with the agreement of COR) in the coastal waters of the country of COR. The above date may be changed by COR/D if the Match venue is to be in the Northern Hemisphere and where required all other relevant dates in this Protocol shall be adjusted accordingly.


4.2. The selected venue and precise dates for the Match shall be announced by RNZYS by the 30th of August 2018.

TE ran an interesting letter from (was it Fay?) where he, during the runup to AC36, slammed the suggestions /threats by ETNZ that the event could go to (I forget where in E Europe) or else to Russia. Instead of Defending in Auckland.  His response was blistering and I suspect he is among those pressing hard back on them this time too.

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9 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

The Venue wasn't officially announced until 30th August 2018!!!

The venue was always going to be NZ unless the agreement between ETNZ and the NZ funding public entities fell over, in which case it could be in Italy if ETNZ and LR agreed to that. There were no other options once the Protocol was issued unless ETNZ and LR agreed to amend the Protocol to change the venue

The final venue announcement deadline was also 30 months out from the event date.

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Just now, accnick said:

The venue was always going to be NZ unless the agreement between ETNZ and the NZ funding public entities fell over, in which case it could be in Italy if ETNZ and LR agreed to that. There were no other options.

The final venue announcement deadline was also 30 months out from the event date.

Let's just wait for the Protocol on Nov 17, will you?

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9 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Let's just wait for the Protocol on Nov 17, will you?

None of us has any choice but to do that at this point.

Nothing any of us says or does will have any impact on these decisions.

None of us can say that something will or will not happen on or by any specified date.

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47 minutes ago, idontwan2know said:

I think the interesting question here is how long does Ineos remain patient with this process?

Nothing of what we've seen makes it seem like a deal that will satisfy TNZ's desire for cash is in the offing, potentially not even from Jeddah. 

Time is the most precious commodity in a cup campaign — even more than money. I'm sure at this point they're not overly worried and want a good event as much as anyone. 

But at some point the competitive factors always come to the fore. How long is Ratty going to be nice about it?

There was a cryptic post from them just after the announcement. Wishing for a speedy solution or something. Cant find it just yet.

Now Merc are a full partnership with Ineos as opposed to advisor and supplier (and perhaps with AM's designer) they wont be hanging around. Interestingly Ineos have assets in Spain and the middle east so it must be doubly frustrating knowing he could have  sorted it months ago. 

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9 minutes ago, chesirecat said:

There was a cryptic post from them just after the announcement. Wishing for a speedy solution or something. Cant find it just yet.

Now Merc are a full partnership with Ineos as opposed to advisor and supplier (and perhaps with AM's designer) they wont be hanging around. Interestingly Ineos have assets in Spain and the middle east so it must be doubly frustrating knowing he could have  sorted it months ago. 

Nothing about speedy mate!

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To be clear, I do not think Ineos are going to get impatient any time in the immediate future, just that it will happen at some point if TNZ do not resolve the venue issue in a reasonable time frame. 

 

Weather data and modeling is one of the fundamental design considerations and not one you can make much progress without. 

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16 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Nothing about speedy mate!

To a native English speaker, particularly one from England, “…at the earliest opportunity…”  means “get it done ASAP.”  You have to understand the nuances of the language here.

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2 hours ago, idontwan2know said:

I think the interesting question here is how long does Ineos remain patient with this process?

Nothing of what we've seen makes it seem like a deal that will satisfy TNZ's desire for cash is in the offing, potentially not even from Jeddah. 

Time is the most precious commodity in a cup campaign — even more than money. I'm sure at this point they're not overly worried and want a good event as much as anyone. 

But at some point the competitive factors always come to the fore. How long is Ratty going to be nice about it?

Why would, Sir James be bothered about a venue announcement delay? 

He has already had his Challenge accepted and the inside running on any Rule changes. His team has all its funding in place (presumably) and headquarters/home base. They pretty much know what they have to do now to get competitive with TNZ, so I'd imagine they're quietly getting on with it. 

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51 minutes ago, idontwan2know said:

Weather data and modeling is one of the fundamental design considerations and not one you can make much progress without. 

Sure you can make progress (especially as INEOS was well behind TNZ in foil and sail/control design). But optimisation would depend on a venue announcement, granted.

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11 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Why would, Sir James be bothered about a venue announcement delay? 

He has already had his Challenge accepted and the inside running on any Rule changes. His team has all its funding in place (presumably) and headquarters/home base. They pretty much know what they have to do now to get competitive with TNZ, so I'd imagine they're quietly getting on with it. 

Very well said!

In the meantime I am enjoying picking on Dunphy!

Maybe we should call him Clownphy?

In all seriousness Dunphy doesn't seem to be a good NZ Citizen! He has a lot of past skeletons around his neck if you look at his CV!

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2 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

TE ran an interesting letter from (was it Fay?) where he, during the runup to AC36, slammed the suggestions /threats by ETNZ that the event could go to (I forget where in E Europe) or else to Russia. Instead of Defending in Auckland.  His response was blistering and I suspect he is among those pressing hard back on them this time too.

Haha like GD gives a shit about TE or Michael Fay lol

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1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:

Why would, Sir James be bothered about a venue announcement delay? 

He has already had his Challenge accepted and the inside running on any Rule changes. His team has all its funding in place (presumably) and headquarters/home base.

The Ineos boats are (like AM's) still based in Auckland, right? Best I can recall, Ineos abandoned the Plymouth base already.

Everyone including BA has expressed their opinion that AC37 will be held in Auckland. They likely know more than us here..

 

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Spinray with his antics again!

INEOS hasn't abandoned their Portsmouth Base.

Key Components of their AC75 Version 2 Boat to be raced in AC37 will be designed and manufactored at the Mercedes GP Manufactoring Facility in Brackley, UK. Why would they abandon their Portsmouth Base.

Terry Hutchinson said AM would prefer to race in Auckland but that they are not pushing for it and understand the Situation TNZ is in.

And Ben Ainslie has the same Opinion.

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47 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

The Ineos boats are (like AM's) still based in Auckland, right? Best I can recall, Ineos abandoned the Plymouth base already.

Everyone including BA has expressed their opinion that AC37 will be held in Auckland. They likely know more than us here..

 

TNZ has expressed their desire to hold the Defence in Auckland also. Needs must however.

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17 minutes ago, Gissie said:

Because putting any pressure on the competition is part of the game. Especially the AC game...

Pretty sure they won't want to rock the boat until the Prot. is agreed and published.

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17 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

The Ineos boats are (like AM's) still based in Auckland, right? Best I can recall, Ineos abandoned the Plymouth base already.

Everyone including BA has expressed their opinion that AC37 will be held in Auckland. They likely know more than us here..

 

Boats are home and Portsmouth is far from abandoned 

your sources are way out. 
 

Mercedes are recruiting and have been for months for people at the Brackly base for the F1 team where they will also be doing work on the AC boat 

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14 hours ago, Gissie said:

Why not. Giving a niggle here and there makes sense. It's not like the team is in a place to push back too much.

Because they know being CoR gives them a seat at the AC75 design table. Just as it did for LR. Rocking the boat jeopardises that. 

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Honestly at some Point I am having enough of Spinrays Spin Tries. I'm glad that people are calling him out for that like saying the ITUK Portsmouth Base has been abandoned when that is nowhere near to be true!

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5 minutes ago, Monkey said:

This is starting to get hilarious. I’m pretty sure that SClarke idiot is the last person standing who isn’t laughing at Team Saudi Arabia’s problems. lol

As long as I can trash that Clown Dunphy I am fine! Why doesn't Dunphy leave New Zealand? Does he have a right to live there?

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1 hour ago, Monkey said:

This is starting to get hilarious. I’m pretty sure that SClarke idiot is the last person standing who isn’t laughing at Team Saudi Arabia’s problems. lol

Oh look a Dad joke. Look if you’re going to try and crack a joke, at least make it funny. 

 

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2 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

As long as I can trash that Clown Dunphy I am fine! Why doesn't Dunphy leave New Zealand? Does he have a right to live there?

Sorry Alinghi4ever, but you’re the only bumbling idiot dumb enough to match SClarke on stupidity. You can trash anyone you’d like. No one cares. 

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56 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

America's Cup defence campaign: Mark Dunphy sees $40m shortfall part filled by more Government cash 
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12473186

Deputy NZ Prime Minister Grant Robertson already said NZ Govtm won't up the money.

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2 minutes ago, idontwan2know said:

Not an encouraging picture painted by that Herald article. Dunphy is pledging $20m of his own and claims he can deliver another $20m from other donors, but has no plan for the rest beyond magically hoping that the government will more than double its cash offer. 

Is the website supposed to be a GoFundMe?

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I hope he isn't relying on any significant public funding.

The TNZ Supporters Club way back in 1995/2000 struggled to raise enough to be a significant contributor to team funding. It did however manage to pay for a new mains'l, at a crucial time in the 1995 campaign. 

Those days were pretty much before digital coms./social media, so admin costs would be reduced these days. No doubt, a net contribution might be improved these days.

But we are NOT talking anywhere near six figures here.

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The whole thing is farcical even funnier than reading the comments on Trademe if you are attempting to sell a secondhand Tesla.

Dunfays got a interest bearing $5mil loan for Lord Dalton that has no loot but doesn’t need a loan DunFay has access to $40m of which  $20mil is sourced from his personal pile not $80m but calls for acts of financial patriotism and a further burden to the public purse to bridge the glaring shortfall Buckley and Canfield must be pissing themselves with laughter.

 

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3 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

The whole thing is farcical even funnier than reading the comments on Trademe if you are attempting to sell a secondhand Tesla.

Dunfays got a interest bearing $5mil loan for Lord Dalton that has no loot but doesn’t need a loan DunFay has access to $40m of which  $20mil is sourced from his personal pile not $80m but calls for acts of financial patriotism and a further burden to the public purse to bridge the glaring shortfall Buckley and Canfield must be pissing themselves with laughter.

 

Conclusion: The Dunphy Bid wasn't a real effort to begin with if his bid still needed Govtm money. Don't you think so?

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33 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

I wonder how high @Stingray~ thinks the penny is now...

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1 hour ago, rh3000 said:

I wonder how high @Stingray~ thinks the penny is now...

Is @Stingray~ one of these - 

In a letter to Dunphy, Dalton wrote: “We are aware of offshore lobbyists that are actively campaigning against the [hosting] bids and request confirmation that neither yourself nor your backers are connected to these lobbying efforts. To date I have received no answer.”

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53 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Is @Stingray~ one of these - 

In a letter to Dunphy, Dalton wrote: “We are aware of offshore lobbyists that are actively campaigning against the [hosting] bids and request confirmation that neither yourself nor your backers are connected to these lobbying efforts. To date I have received no answer.”

Probably not. But his best buddy, TE might know who they are. ;-)

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Why are GD and Dubfy conducting discussions through media statements?

it’s amateur at best. Fucking childish otherwise. 
 

HD won’t deal with Dunfy, the money has shrunk off shore,

see if Wussel will lend out the F50s to settle it? Pete has been going great in those ;-) 

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52 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

If one of the other teams really has hired Dunphy to do a spoiler on TNZ funding it would be a great move completely in line with the historical spirit of the cup.

Would be quite funny. Though with the overseas bids all looking shaky it may be unnecessary

As conspiracy theories go, it's not a bad one. The thinking being - if you stop TNZ going offshore, you might severely restrict their funding options, by blocking potential named sponsors. I'm pretty sure @Stingray~will be excited by the prospect. ;-) 

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2 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

If one of the other teams really has hired Dunphy to do a spoiler on TNZ funding it would be a great move completely in line with the historical spirit of the cup.

Would be quite funny. Though with the overseas bids all looking shaky it may be unnecessary

Perhaps the team has hired Dunphy themselves in an effort to get the government to raise their offer. After all, the hundreds of millions bid from offshore venues seems to be drying up, leaving the team looking like a bilge keeler on some English mudflats.

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2 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

If one of the other teams really has hired Dunphy to do a spoiler on TNZ funding it would be a great move completely in line with the historical spirit of the cup.

Would be quite funny. Though with the overseas bids all looking shaky it may be unnecessary

I'd believe the story if it was butterballs.

Dunphy is too much a stretch even for the conspirators.

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I agree this conspiracy stuff is unlikely - but funny. 

So back to a different sort of speculation - the 3 "strong bids" that GD mentioned. I suspect he isn't lying, but is stretching it a bit. So therefore I suspect the bids are 

ME/Saudi - not sure how much money

Auckland - we know not as much as he wanted

Cork - because they haven't actually withdrawn, just asked for more time. I don't think it will come to anything but whilst he can count them as in it may help up someone else's offer

So, if the indications that Dunphy's "help" won't come to anything are correct, then GD has no choice but the ME as far as I can see. I hate the idea, but thats where I have thought all along it would end up.

Indeed I think a lot of this bidding is all about covering up that was the intent all along, and is one reason why he is so pissed with Dunphy.

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2 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

So, if the indications that Dunphy's "help" won't come to anything are correct, then GD has no choice but the ME as far as I can see. I hate the idea, but thats where I have thought all along it would end up.

I don’t see how Jeddah (or anywhere else in the Gulf) could eventuate: lack of wind and, more importantly, the time slot would have to be Oct-Nov-Dec i.e. outside the Deed limit. INEOS would have to MC, and I don’t see why they would, and in any case the other Challengers would certainly involve the NYSC.

The other scenario: AKL with a castrated GD on the leash of a (monitored) minimum budget, is much more likely

 

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9 minutes ago, Xlot said:

I don’t see how Jeddah (or anywhere else in the Gulf) could eventuate: lack of wind and, more importantly, the time slot would have to be Oct-Nov-Dec i.e. outside the Deed limit. INEOS would have to MC, and I don’t see why they would, and in any case the other Challengers would certainly involve the NYSC.

The other scenario: AKL with a castrated GD on the leash of a (monitored) minimum budget, is much more likely

 

I should have said that GD will try for ME. But I definitely hope it will fail.

So I hope you are right in the last sentence.

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Just a thought that came to me as I was looking at the garden.  The real poison in the chalice is setting up all the circus tents and acts for the race events.  Given the difficulty NZ is having raising money and getting ma$$ive  governnment support...

Just how realistic is the pious hope that lowering challenger costs with a cheaper boat will attract large numbers of quality challengers? Egad! What if they win?!? They couldn't afford an expensive boat but have to run the events?!?

 

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4 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

So, if the indications that Dunphy's "help" won't come to anything are correct, then GD has no choice but the ME as far as I can see. I hate the idea, but thats where I have thought all along it would end up.

If it was going to be Jeddah, why was that not announced last week? What's going to change? One thing about Saudi Arabia, you can't say it's hamstrung by the needs of transparent democratic due process.

With the (arguable) exception of Valencia, it's notable that no recent host city has been especially anxious to repeat the experience.

My call 6 months ago was that TNZ would be back to Auckland with its tail between its legs. I still think that's most likely, albeit I've love it to be Cork.

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11 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

If it was going to be Jeddah, why was that not announced last week?

Primarily because GD would have looked a complete **** if he had chosen ME just as more money 'appeared' to be on the table back in Auckland

He has to be able to make the case that there is no possible defence in Kiwi-land

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20 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

If it was going to be Jeddah, why was that not announced last week? What's going to change? One thing about Saudi Arabia, you can't say it's hamstrung by the needs of transparent democratic due process.

Why? Because TNZ/ACE has had no face to face Meetings will Local Authorities. You don't make a Decision like the next Venue for the Cup just based on a piece of paper. You get on the Ground there and see for yourself, talk to the people, etc.

Same applies for Cork as well! Because of the Lockdown & closing the MIQ System no one could get in or out of NZ. Now with the MIQ up and running again I expect TNZ COO Kevin Shoebridge & Legal Advisor Russell Green to get over there and evaluate all 3 Overseas Bids and once they're back from their trip and report back to Grant & RNZYS Commodore Aaron Young they will make a Decision.

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1 hour ago, enigmatically2 said:

Primarily because GD would have looked a complete **** if he had chosen ME just as more money 'appeared' to be on the table back in Auckland

He has to be able to make the case that there is no possible defence in Kiwi-land

GD certainly is pressing for the case that Auckland 'is just not possible' - seems to be actively fighting against the chance that Dunphy brings instead of there being any semblance of embracing it. 'The govt offer is perfectly understandable, we don't want it raised' , 'It is either lose here or win it off shore' , 'Dunphy must be a traitor, doing traitorous deals with Ernesto or all these other of our enemies, well anyone but Ratty of course!''

Too damn funny, the whole thing! :D

 

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