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The AC 37 has started, news and rumours


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On Hamish Ross and the Discrimination Issue: This will be long, pedantic, and legal.  I apologize for the length; read at your own risk. Hamish Ross has recently claimed on multiple occasion

I’m not calling this out for the sake of ostracizing you, nor to play PC police on a forum that is notorious for the opposite of that. I could just hit ignore, delete or whatever. I’m calling this out

Hilarious to watch Kiwis who've been around since AC35 twist themselves into intellectual pretzels to give ETNZ a pass on what they screamed bloody murder about when Oracle did it. Even Oracle di

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28 minutes ago, Presuming Ed said:

Judging from the RYSR members regatta earlier this year, all RYS full members are members of RYSR. 

According to the RYSR rules, which I read a while ago, the memberships aren't identical. I accept practice may differ from theory.

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7 hours ago, dogwatch said:

I’ve a hypothetical DoG question. Suppose we had an accepted challenge. The defender says, OK, the match is to be in the Faroe Islands next July. It’s a DoG compliant venue and date. The challenger says no, we like dolphins. So what happens? Ultimately, it appears to me, in the absence of MC, the defender decides the venue, subject to hemisphere/date. Any other thoughts?

Correct. The Deed contemplates that the challenger sets the dates by providing the 10 months' notice. In the absence of mutual consent, those dates govern, and the defender gets to set the location. The court in the SNG/GGYC litigation confirmed these roles in a series of rulings.

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If the CoR triggers that 10 months, how long do the defender have to announce the venue?

Because if that happens I could see the announcement being delayed so that the CoR don't know what wind conditions to build for. 

Just not sure how Ineos will feel about Jeddah or anywhere else in ME so a DoG challenge does seem a possibility

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9 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

If the CoR triggers that 10 months, how long do the defender have to announce the venue?

Because if that happens I could see the announcement being delayed so that the CoR don't know what wind conditions to build for. 

Just not sure how Ineos will feel about Jeddah or anywhere else in ME so a DoG challenge does seem a possibility

It's a good question. In the SNG/GGYC litigation, the court required SNG to give GGYC six months' notice of the venue, but there is nothing in the Deed requiring the defender to provide the location by any particular time. There are obviously logistical limitations -- the defender has to let the challenger know the venue in enough time to actually get there -- but beyond that your question remains largely open.

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Hmm, googling this question I find HR's page which includes the question:

"May a challenger dictate the timing and even the hemisphere of a match through careful selection of dates and notice timing?" 

So if they really don't like Jeddah, possibly Ineos could trigger a DoG match at such a time that it has to be held in Southern hemisphere, thus ruling out Jeddah. But they couldn't trigger that until 1st Feb. NZ could challenge that in court but don't have cash, especially if there is a risk they lose and thus don't get Saudi money.

So that would end up with 90' foilers at Auckland. Spectacular but a big expensive for TNZ.

So it does seem that Ineos hold quite a lot of cards

 

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9 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

Hmm, googling this question I find HR's page which includes the question:

"May a challenger dictate the timing and even the hemisphere of a match through careful selection of dates and notice timing?" 

So if they really don't like Jeddah, possibly Ineos could trigger a DoG match at such a time that it has to be held in Southern hemisphere, thus ruling out Jeddah. But they couldn't trigger that until 1st Feb. NZ could challenge that in court but don't have cash, especially if there is a risk they lose and thus don't get Saudi money.

So that would end up with 90' foilers at Auckland. Spectacular but a big expensive for TNZ.

So it does seem that Ineos hold quite a lot of cards

 

INEOS and TNZ have clearly gone done the "mutual consent" path, as they are already 6+ months into the challenge and haven't even agreed upon a venue. By the ten months' Deed standard, AC37 should take place in January (which would mean the Southern hemisphere). If negotiations break down and this becomes a Deed match, there is almost certainly no way the parties could hold AC37 in less than four months. So they'd either have to agree on a new date or get a date from the court. The date they agreed upon or the date set for them by the court would dictate the hemisphere.

And they could be 44' foilers. I'm not sure bigger is necessarily better when it comes to foiling, but I leave that discussion to people better qualified to have it.

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22 minutes ago, porthos said:

INEOS and TNZ have clearly gone done the "mutual consent" path, as they are already 6+ months into the challenge and haven't even agreed upon a venue. By the ten months' Deed standard, AC37 should take place in January (which would mean the Southern hemisphere). If negotiations break down and this becomes a Deed match, there is almost certainly no way the parties could hold AC37 in less than four months. So they'd either have to agree on a new date or get a date from the court. The date they agreed upon or the date set for them by the court would dictate the hemisphere.

And they could be 44' foilers. I'm not sure bigger is necessarily better when it comes to foiling, but I leave that discussion to people better qualified to have it.

If it is a DoG match with tight time constraints couldn’t they use their existing boats but then remove all the other restrictions from AC36?  Better flight controls, etc.

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4 minutes ago, sailman said:

If it is a DoG match with tight time constraints couldn’t they use their existing boats but then remove all the other restrictions from AC36?  Better flight controls, etc.

They could, but the other competitor could rock up with a bigger boat, wing sail etc 

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4 minutes ago, sailman said:

If it is a DoG match with tight time constraints couldn’t they use their existing boats but then remove all the other restrictions from AC36?  Better flight controls, etc.

There wouldn’t be any restrictions (other than length) but I’m not sure INEOS would want to contest AC37 in the current boats. TNZ had a clear advantage there. Moreover, I’m not sure if either team would want to take boats designed for inshore sailing offshore as required by the Deed.

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36 minutes ago, porthos said:

 Moreover, I’m not sure if either team would want to take boats designed for inshore sailing offshore as required by the Deed.

True. Would surely be 90' cats with retractable foils, auto-flight control, solid wings (different sizes for different winds). Fast and expensive

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1 hour ago, sailman said:

If it is a DoG match with tight time constraints couldn’t they use their existing boats but then remove all the other restrictions from AC36?  Better flight controls, etc.

If there's mutual agreement on the boat, that is not what is described as  a DoG match.

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2 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

If there's mutual agreement on the boat, that is not what is described as  a DoG match.

A DoG match just specifies the max LWL of the vessel.  Are these current AC boats faster than the Oracle DoG?

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44 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

True. Would surely be 90' cats with retractable foils, auto-flight control, solid wings (different sizes for different winds). Fast and expensive

I'm not convinced JR has an appetite for spending at that level. Poor chap struggles along at $15B estimated net worth. LE estimates are around $115B and even he reined in his spending by the time of AC35.

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Just now, sailman said:

A DoG match just specifies the max LWL of the vessel.  Are these current AC boats faster than the Oracle DoG?

Don't know but they would not be faster than Dogzilla on foils.

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1 minute ago, dogwatch said:

I'm not convinced JR has an appetite for spending at that level. Poor chap struggles along at $15B estimated net worth. LE estimates are around $115B and even he reigned in his spending by the time of AC35.

JR could get closer than GD could if the latter had to race it in Auckland

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46 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

True. Would surely be 90' cats with retractable foils, auto-flight control, solid wings (different sizes for different winds). Fast and expensive

Hmm ... not one cat in the French Ultime class. AC33 has shown conclusively that platform stresses are too high, plus tris are very much favored by the DoG measurement criteria (LWL measured on the center hull, while amas can be much longer)

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9 minutes ago, sailman said:

A DoG match just specifies the max LWL of the vessel.  Are these current AC boats faster than the Oracle DoG?

In a pure DoG match, the challenger supplies specific details of the boat he intends to challenge with, along with the challenge. These required details are outlined in the DoG. 

The  Defender then determines what boat he will defend with.

This is how we ended up with the dog vs cat match in 1988.

In a less than completely hostile DoG match, the challenger and defender might agree to meet in a specified class or type of boat, provided it complied with the Deed limits.

The AC75 is dramatically faster than Dogzilla, which was not a foiling boat.

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9 minutes ago, Xlot said:

Hmm ... not one cat in the French Ultime class. AC33 has shown conclusively that platform stresses are too high, plus tris are very much favored by the DoG measurement criteria (LWL measured on the center hull, while amas can be much longer)

The amas can be longer provided their immersed length does not increase measured static waterline length beyond the DoG max.

The method of waterline measurement for multihulls was litigated prior to the 2010 match.

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7 minutes ago, accnick said:

In a less than completely hostile DoG match, the challenger and defender might agree to meet in a specified class or type of boat, provided it complied with the Deed limits.

That is not the meaning of "DoG match", which signifies "no mutual consent".

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1 minute ago, dogwatch said:

That is not the meaning of "DoG match", which signifies "no mutual consent".

No, it does not.  Even in a hostile DoG match, the two parties may agree to certain items.

All AC matches are run under the terms of the Deed of Gift, one way or another. It is the ultimate governing document.

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2 minutes ago, accnick said:

No, it does not.  Even in a hostile DoG match, the two parties may agree to certain items.

Well, if you want to use words in a different sense to everyone else, that's up to you. It does however limit the possibility of conversation.

When "DoG match" was used in AC27 and AC33, it indicated no MC. I don't recall the term being used to describe another cycle.

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5 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

Well, if you want to use words in a different sense to everyone else, that's up to you. It does however limit the possibility of conversation.

When "DoG match" was used in AC27 and AC33, it indicated no MC. I don't recall the term being used to describe another cycle.

In AC33, the court told the teams to hold the cup either in Valencia, because they had previously agreed to that, or SNG could pick some other Deed-compliant place. So, yeah, even in a match where the teams don’t agree on the boat, they can still agree on things like venue.

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Irrespective of terminology the point is that:

If GD picks Jeddah AND Ineos don't want Jeddah

Then Ineos can threaten to trigger a DoG match on 1st Feb which would then have to be in southern hemisphere

Though they are prepared to accept AC75s in 2023 as long as its in AKL - or anywhere outside ME

 

From a racing point of view and for enjoyment of their crews killing off Jeddah would seem to be a great idea for Ineos. Though of course JR might be piggy-backing some oil deal on this for all we know

 

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36 minutes ago, accnick said:

In a less than completely hostile DoG match, the challenger and defender might agree to meet in a specified class or type of boat, provided it complied with the Deed limits.

IIRC the only technical agreement in AC33 was allowing power mainsheets

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25 minutes ago, Xlot said:

IIRC the only technical agreement in AC33 was allowing power mainsheets

They basically had to agree to waive some parts of the RRS.  That included what are now RRS 52 (manual power)and 53 (skin friction).

The final rules governing the sailing must be published somewhere that some Anarchist can ferret out.

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SNG changed their RRS to allow powered systems - and tried to hide that change from Oracle. When Alinghi started releasing their grinders, Oracle got tipped off to it. 

Although Oracle did contest the change it actually helped them too. Even using a solid wing, DZ had ridiculous-level power requirements. 

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12 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

SNG changed their RRS to allow powered systems - and tried to hide that change from Oracle. When Alinghi started releasing their grinders, Oracle got tipped off to it. 

Although Oracle did contest the change it actually helped them too. Even using a solid wing, DZ had ridiculous-level power requirements. 

And they had an engine to meet those needs. Both boats had engines that ran full-time.

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10 minutes ago, accnick said:

Getting someone’s name wrong is a bigger deal than a simple word mis-spell.

Maybe, but the larger point SS was arguing was this:

Back in 1983, Bob Hawke and others stated A2’s victory over Liberty united the nation (Australia or ‘Big Island’ as the Kiwis often call it) like no other sporting event. 

In New Zealand it has a similar impact rivaled only perhaps by the All Blacks winning Rugby’s ultimate trophy and the scenes around the Auckland waterfront after Race 10 of AC36 were clear evidence as to what that win meant to ordinary Kiwis

Does Ms Ahern’s government not see that? 

 

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5 minutes ago, accnick said:

Getting someone’s name wrong is a bigger deal than a simple word mis-spell.

Really Accprick?

I'm name dislexic, and continuously spell Spinray, Pissy, Hangcock etc. wrong.

Spell check doesn't help, to the contrary, it just turned Accnick into something nasty, presumably it recognizes the forum hatred.

Sorry about that, I didn't mean too!

 

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43 minutes ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Really Accprick?

I'm name dislexic, and continuously spell Spinray, Pissy, Hangcock etc. wrong.

Spell check doesn't help, to the contrary, it just turned Accnick into something nasty, presumably it recognizes the forum hatred.

Sorry about that, I didn't mean too!

 

Well, you are a clever dick, for sure.

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54 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Maybe, but the larger point SS was arguing was this:

Back in 1983, Bob Hawke and others stated A2’s victory over Liberty united the nation (Australia or ‘Big Island’ as the Kiwis often call it) like no other sporting event. 

In New Zealand it has a similar impact rivaled only perhaps by the All Blacks winning Rugby’s ultimate trophy and the scenes around the Auckland waterfront after Race 10 of AC36 were clear evidence as to what that win meant to ordinary Kiwis

Does Ms Ahern’s government not see that? 

 

Think you will find Stinger that for the general population of Aotearoa matters AC are of very little importance.

Matters concerning health welfare having a job being able to pay the rent and putting food on the table have usurped those heady days you quote.

 

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38 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

Think you will find Stinger that for the general population of Aotearoa matters AC are of very little importance.

Matters concerning health welfare having a job being able to pay the rent and putting food on the table have usurped those heady days you quote.

 

I do get that except when there are boats racing, especially the Match, almost everyone else is complety tuned out of anything-AC and tuned into more important things.

But I'd guess that the situation is even more pronounced in any other country than 'sailing mad' NZ and that, if they have the additional burden of building out facilities (oh, and funding GD's 'NZ' campaign too), well it's likely an even harder sell than in NZ.

SF was nuts, they went through review after review, all kinds of special interests wanted a bite out of it, even the 'mass transportation' and 'wetland restoration impact ' plans went on for months in SFBOS, it was almost astonishing that it happened. And once the interim facility they used, the new cruise ship terminal, got completed, well that was that. 

In Bermuda's case they had a bid in for just an ACWS event. When RC asked 'How would you like to have the whole shooting Match?' they were floored! RC likely didn't have many options either.    

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2 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Maybe, but the larger point SS was arguing was this:

Back in 1983, Bob Hawke and others stated A2’s victory over Liberty united the nation (Australia or ‘Big Island’ as the Kiwis often call it) like no other sporting event. 

That event, the mystery of the veiled keel, contemporaneous Australian colorful arts and ads made it a place foreigners including Americans really wanted to go see. Rollicking, fun loving, you name it. We flocked. 

Flash forward  to a series of races set off by sand, perhaps some terrorism warnings, intrusive visa requirements for would be visitors, rehashes of the "dismembering" murder, all set up by New Zealand because the host had money and was willing to sportswash its mixed reputation. 

Maybe people will go see the Middle East. I plan to see Egypt. But it won't  do squat to enhance New Zealand. 

"Hey didn't they sell out to MBS? Yeah. Well who cares if they are doing away with quarantine, all they got is sheep and geysers anyhow. And some boats trips but we can go to Scandinavia for that. Closer, too. "

 

 

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7 hours ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Really Accprick?

I'm name dislexic, and continuously spell Spinray, Pissy, Hangcock etc. wrong.

Spell check doesn't help, to the contrary, it just turned Accnick into something nasty, presumably it recognizes the forum hatred.

Sorry about that, I didn't mean too!

 

The dyslexic that can’t spell the thing they are using to defend their position? Hmm curious… 

yep it’s on my long list of “issues” too  but at least make the effort to not reinforce the stereotype. 

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16 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

Certainly one of the smarter ones on here @Fiji Bitter

Thanks, but not so difficult here in AC anarchy, Shang.

Admittedly ACC brings a wealth of knowledge to this forum, but lacks some reading comprehension, sense of humor, and jib trimming expertise.

BTW, your affront page article was really excellent and to the point, and pretty concise this time. Well done!

 

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8 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Maybe, but the larger point SS was arguing was this:

Back in 1983, Bob Hawke and others stated A2’s victory over Liberty united the nation (Australia or ‘Big Island’ as the Kiwis often call it) like no other sporting event. 

In New Zealand it has a similar impact rivaled only perhaps by the All Blacks winning Rugby’s ultimate trophy and the scenes around the Auckland waterfront after Race 10 of AC36 were clear evidence as to what that win meant to ordinary Kiwis

Does Ms Ahern’s government not see that? 

 

I wonder what those scenes would have been like had they been told the truth. That the cup, the one fought for and sold on the concept of bringing it back home. The one defended using the trope the the Americas Cup is New Zealand's Cup.

If they had been told an offer of 99 mill to run a regatta, with all the shit going on, was going to be spurned. That the cup was pissing off to chase the money, never to return. Just might have been a different reaction that was seen.

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2 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

Look for Dalton selling swag on Craigslist or ebay

The bloke that commissioned a 3-4million Fishing cat with 200bottle wine fridge? In the middle of Covid knowing the team has fuck all in the bank after the cup and loans to Matteo that they could hope to pay back? 
 

he ain’t selling shit even if the team were falling down around him. 

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42 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

The bloke that commissioned a 3-4million Fishing cat with 200bottle wine fridge? In the middle of Covid knowing the team has fuck all in the bank after the cup and loans to Matteo that they could hope to pay back? 
 

he ain’t selling shit even if the team were falling down around him. 

Of course he will. Over-priced tat. Probably made in Chinese sweat shops. With Emirates branding and sold via another of his sponsors. 

https://themarket.com/nz/search?s=Etnz&sc=s

Still chance to fleece some more off kiwis before he takes it overseas to fleece someone else

 

 

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8 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

Was this posted before? Sorry if so. Just popped up in my news feed.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/americas-cup/126480023/americas-cup-auckland-lawyer-lays-out-foiled-plan-to-disrupt-next-defence

What's with Ross?!? Rogue operation, plausible deniability, or what?  

Looking for his next pay cheque, prolly.

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On 9/24/2021 at 4:32 PM, Xlot said:

IIRC the only technical agreement in AC33 was allowing power mainsheets

Max talked a lot about that AC in an interview with the Centro velico Caprera. Regarding the power mainsheets, he told a funny story. 

"To move the winches we mounted the engine of a BMW 1 series. Two Austrian technicians came with the engine, they were also the mechanics for the Mini Cooper in the Paris - Dakar race.  They were two genius, they had this container that seemed like something of NASA. Nobody was allowed to enter in there. They lightened and rebuilt the whole engine, They made it go from weighing 300 kg to 140 kg. They also powered it up to 400 horsepower, instead of 190. Just to make a comparison, Alinghi had fitted a two-stroke engine from a jet ski."

 

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Just seen a petition on change.org by Michael Horgan urging the Irish govt to bid for AC. It has only received about 1700 signatures at the moment. The govt will hardly be overwhelmed by the support. (For comparison, the next petition it linked to had over 100k signatories campaigning to stop the cutting down of 70 trees)

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1 hour ago, Zaal said:

Max talked a lot about that AC in an interview with the Centro velico Caprera. Regarding the power mainsheets, he told a funny story. 

"To move the winches we mounted the engine of a BMW 1 series. Two Austrian technicians came with the engine, they were also the mechanics for the Mini Cooper in the Paris - Dakar race.  They were two genius, they had this container that seemed like something of NASA. Nobody was allowed to enter in there. They lightened and rebuilt the whole engine, They made it go from weighing 300 kg to 140 kg. They also powered it up to 400 horsepower, instead of 190. Just to make a comparison, Alinghi had fitted a two-stroke engine from a jet ski."

 

I believe OR used an X5 radiator to cool the thing. Fortunately, it only had to run a few hours at a time.

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On 9/26/2021 at 11:29 AM, Kate short for Bob said:
On 9/26/2021 at 7:30 AM, Stingray~ said:

Nice that PB is doing well

Spy: Revealed — The woman sailing away with Peter Burling's heart 
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/spy/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503840&objectid=12474032

Described as a "glamorous socialite".....well PB is fucked now.  

Nah, this is a sham relationship of convenience. Pete and Blair have been in a committed, monogamous relationship since they won their first world title.

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So whilst we wait for a location,  how many teams do we reckon?

Ineos and Prada seem pretty nailed on. Alinghi possibly but I haven't seen anything apart from speculation & rumour.

Americans in theory. I know there are 2 teams identified but I would be amazed if there were more than 1, and the split may even result in none in the end.

And the kiwis. One assumes they will get enough money to put up some defence. If they don't then there would be no event, thus no challenger series, so presumably the cup would go to the CoR?

So max of 6 teams, low of 3, most likely 4?

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1 minute ago, enigmatically2 said:

So whilst we wait for a location,  how many teams do we reckon?

Ineos and Prada seem pretty nailed on. Alinghi possibly but I haven't seen anything apart from speculation & rumour.

Americans in theory. I know there are 2 teams identified but I would be amazed if there were more than 1, and the split may even result in none in the end.

And the kiwis. One assumes they will get enough money to put up some defence. If they don't then there would be no event, thus no challenger series, so presumably the cup would go to the CoR?

So max of 6 teams, low of 3, most likely 4?

Maybe the Dutch Team from AC36 (who had to withdraw) will come to the Party as well?

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3 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

Seems unlikely - any reason to suppose they might other than hope?

I guess we have to see the AC37 Protocol first before we can draw to some hard conclusions who else might challenge besides the Teams you mentioned above.

ETNZ/INEOS mentioned cost-cutting measures when INEOS was accepted as CoR in March. We have to see what these measures are! Ben mentioned numerous times he'd like to see more Teams getting involved.

They both also mentioned that they will assist "Emerging Teams/Nations" to make the Start Line. That's a very different tone compared to AC36 and the Italians. While ETNZ was trying to help S & S and the Dutch to make the Start Line Luna Rossa was IMO working behind the scenes to prevent that from happening. That's not in the spirit of the AC from my Point of view!

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3 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

I guess we have to see the AC37 Protocol first before we can draw to some hard conclusions who else might challenge besides the Teams you mentioned above.

ETNZ/INEOS mentioned cost-cutting measures when INEOS was accepted as CoR in March. We have to see what these measures are! Ben mentioned numerous times he'd like to see more Teams getting involved.

They both also mentioned that they will assist "Emerging Teams/Nations" to make the Start Line. That's a very different tone compared to AC36 and the Italians. While ETNZ was trying to help S & S and the Dutch to make the Start Line Luna Rossa was IMO working behind the scenes to prevent that from happening. That's not in the spirit of the AC from my Point of view!

Cost cutting!!???  They are mandating a second class of boat and additional crew and support staff to go along with it.  What a farce!

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35 minutes ago, sailman said:

Cost cutting!!???  They are mandating a second class of boat and additional crew and support staff to go along with it.  What a farce!

Stop that. The new class will have heaps of new teams and countries will pay heaps of money to host them and the TV companies will pay heaps more money for all the heaps of viewers they will.

This will save the team as they will have heaps of money to defend. Not enough to defend in Auckland, but enough to pay the CEO heaps.

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