The AC 37 has started, news and rumours

[enigmatically2 1,468]

1 hour ago, crashtack said:

soooo is there a 3-5 sentence rundown of current developments available for someone who hasn't been following ac at all since the match? It's going to Saudi Arabia? And TNZ is falling apart?

If only the front page was used for actual news and recaps instead of a creative writing exercise by someone's horny grandpa

1) ETNZ have ruled out holding it in Auckland because the cash offer was too small 

2) Ireland got cold feet, Valencia pulled out but Spain may be interested but are unlikely to beat Auckland offer 

3) there are rumours of Middle East, particularly Jeddah. But Mark Dunphy will sue ETNZ if it goes there 

 4) Ineos/UK have teamed with Merc F1 

5) Americans are changing dance partners after NYYC pulled out

That's about it

 

 

 

[dogwatch 1,311]

1 minute ago, enigmatically2 said:

But Mark Dunphy will sue ETNZ if it goes there 

Although his grounds and legal standing to do so are a mystery.

The other salient rumour is of ACWS in 40 footers. It is likely teams will pay TNZ for the boats, ameliorating their cash-flow issue.

[crashtack 334]

3 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

The other salient rumour is of ACWS in 40 footers. It is likely teams will pay TNZ for the boats, ameliorating their cash-flow issue.

As in one-design fleet races a-la 2013?

[dogwatch 1,311]

Yes. https://www.sail-world.com/news/241568/Americas-Cup-Dalton-explains-the-new-AC40

[accnick 1,737]

47 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

Although his grounds and legal standing to do so are a mystery.

The other salient rumour is of ACWS in 40 footers. It is likely teams will pay TNZ for the boats, ameliorating their cash-flow issue.

That's a stretch. You can't fund an AC defense by building and selling a dozen (at most) 40' boats.

[dogwatch 1,311]

28 minutes ago, accnick said:

You can't fund an AC defense by building and selling a dozen (at most) 40' boats.

No you can't. Look up the meaning of "ameliorate".

[accnick 1,737]

4 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

No you can't. Look up the meaning of "ameliorate".

Between start-up costs and construction costs, they will struggle to get positive cash flow out of the AC 40 construction program, at least in the short run.

See the history of the AC45 program, or the F50 SailGP program. It is not a money-making proposition, any way you look at it. The builder may be the only one making anything, and the margins won't be that big.

Someone has to pay for the tooling costs before you pull a single hull. That tooling cost is usually amortised over the expected construction run.

Same thing goes for the components (and their tooling) such as foils, rudders, masts, control systems.

This will be an expensive little boat. If the true costs per are, say, a million USD per boat--which would be cheap--how much are you going to sell them for, who is buying, and how many are you going to sell? How predictable is the cash flow you might generate out of this program?

It's hard to do components on a "just in time" basis. Someone is going to need to front a fair amount of start-up money. Someone will be out a lot of money before there is significant cash flow. You can't expect the customer to front the entire amount when the order is placed. You don't even do that in conventional yacht construction.

[Stingray~ 2,262]

Pretty good listen all around and AC is towards the middle

https://yachtracing.life/the-yacht-racing-podcast-ed-gorman/amp/

[dogwatch 1,311]

4 minutes ago, accnick said:

You can't expect the customer to front the entire amount when the order is placed. You don't even do that in conventional yacht construction.

They aren't really "customers" though, since purchase is compulsory. It's in effect part of the entry fee to the AC and those do get paid in advance. It's a certainty TNZ will make money out of them, otherwise, given their financial state, they would not be doing it.

[Stingray~ 2,262]

17 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

They aren't really "customers" though, since purchase is compulsory. It's in effect part of the entry fee to the AC and those do get paid in advance. It's a certainty TNZ will make money out of them, otherwise, given their financial state, they would not be doing it.

While they may make money from competitors being forced to buy the ‘AC40s’ (although they, like the ‘AC75s’ might as well ditch the bowsprits and call them by their proper names..) the feeder series in small boats is a good idea for a few other reasons too, especially if the teams are going to, like SGP AC50Fs, do a circuit. 

[Chobani Sailor 195]

Entry into AC37 will begin on our around December 1.  TNZ gets the first AC40, Ineos gets the second AC40.  Other entrants get their AC40 based on when they enter the regatta.  AC40 prices NZD2.5M a piece.  AC37 entrants get priority on the AC40s before AC40 Youth and Women's entries.

Location won't be announced until sometime after the new year.  (because they don't have a location).  Having said that, considering NZ and Europe are really on holiday until the middle of January, my guess is we won't be hearing about a location until February 1.    If it is Jeddah and you have every one of their brothers suing TNZ or the yacht club about the location.......

This is going to be a great cup cycle - insert eyeroll

 

[Xlot 1,162]

1 hour ago, Chobani Sailor said:

Location won't be announced until sometime after the new year.  (because they don't have a location)

Now where did I put my pitchfork?

And “they” have a perfectly good location, bloody AKL!

[dg_sailingfan 78]

4 hours ago, Chobani Sailor said:

Entry into AC37 will begin on our around December 1.  TNZ gets the first AC40, Ineos gets the second AC40.  Other entrants get their AC40 based on when they enter the regatta.  AC40 prices NZD2.5M a piece.  AC37 entrants get priority on the AC40s before AC40 Youth and Women's entries.

Location won't be announced until sometime after the new year.  (because they don't have a location).  Having said that, considering NZ and Europe are really on holiday until the middle of January, my guess is we won't be hearing about a location until February 1.    If it is Jeddah and you have every one of their brothers suing TNZ or the yacht club about the location.......

This is going to be a great cup cycle - insert eyeroll

 

Nothing surprises me Chobani,
I said a month ago that the Venue would not be announced until the new year. Looks like I am going to be right on that one.

[Liquid 645]

On 11/1/2021 at 9:26 AM, dogwatch said:

Nothing new about ACWS in smaller boats being compulsory.

I guess that would depend on what your definition of 'new' is in relation to 170 a year old history.

I think 160 of those years didn't have a travel side show...

Didn't the traveling circus start with those easily modified kingpost catamarans back in 2011-'13?

 

Reducing costs by adding 2 classes and racing them in ports all over the word.........????

[dogwatch 1,311]

20 minutes ago, Liquid said:

Didn't the traveling circus start with those easily modified kingpost catamarans back in 2011-'13?

No. Acts in IACCs, starting 2004.

[Liquid 645]

32 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

No. Acts in IACCs, starting 2004.

Sorry, I was way off.....

I stand corrected, the ACWS is nothing new after 153 years of not having one.

Weren't those IACC acts sailed in IACC boats and not 2 other non relevant classes to the outcome of the cup!

 

[Sea Breeze 74 711]

8 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

1) ETNZ have ruled out holding it in Auckland because the cash offer was too small 

2) Ireland got cold feet, Valencia pulled out but Spain may be interested but are unlikely to beat Auckland offer 

3) there are rumours of Middle East, particularly Jeddah. But Mark Dunphy will sue ETNZ if it goes there 

 4) Ineos/UK have teamed with Merc F1 

5) Americans are changing dance partners after NYYC pulled out

That's about it

This explains about 8 months of news and 100 pages of ACA 

[Forourselves 1,690]

4 hours ago, Xlot said:

Now where did I put my pitchfork?

And “they” have a perfectly good location, bloody AKL!

And yet during the last cycle people on here were absolutely trashing AKL as a venue because it was “toor far away from the rest of the world, the TV time zone was shit, it was logistically difficult for the teams and the racing conditions were too light and flukey” now it’s “ a perfectly good venue” lol

[pusslicker 663]

1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

And yet during the last cycle people on here were absolutely trashing AKL as a venue because it was “toor far away from the rest of the world, the TV time zone was shit, it was logistically difficult for the teams and the racing conditions were too light and flukey” now it’s “ a perfectly good venue” lol

It's mostly because GD wants to sell it to a brutal dictatorship that is even less windy. Auckland even looks good in comparison to that.

[JALhazmat 1,611]

 shit time zone? Yup, 

light winds exacerbated by foil constraints etc but that’s fixed  easily by non stupid protocol 

vs

too hot to race during the day, no fucking wind, sketchy moral compass etc

 

yeah AKL is a better venue, you know that, despite mainling GDs coolade

[NeedAClew 1,786]

Does the Deed say they have to race in daylight? 

[zenmasterfred 565]

1 hour ago, NeedAClew said:

Does the Deed say they have to race in daylight? 

Fuck No!  Good point, lots cooler at night.  And harder to keep track of your competition.

[NeedAClew 1,786]

Could be quite pretty. Little lights on boats, festive markers, dark starry night sky...night vision go pros onncrew....

[ChairborneRanger 77]

19 hours ago, Forourselves said:

There is no reason or rush to release the protocol.

Better that the venue selection process is completed thoroughly with i's dotted and t's crossed.

Not sure why everyone is getting impatient, as other Defenders have taken 12 months plus to release the protocol. November is only 8 months from the end of the final race of AC36.

 

Correct. Previous Protocol's have taken longer and some venue decisions even longer, so why are some grumpy old holey undies in a twist over waiting such a short amount of time?

I bet the venue still wont be announced, which I'm fine with. There will be plenty of meat in the Protocol to keep people busy and at the end of the day, a venue is wet with wind, so I'm happy to forget about it until it's actually announced.

It's not like ETNZ are designing to a venue anyway, if they don't even know which one it is.

[ChairborneRanger 77]

13 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

1) ETNZ have ruled out holding it in Auckland because the cash offer was too small 

2) Ireland got cold feet, Valencia pulled out but Spain may be interested but are unlikely to beat Auckland offer 

3) there are rumours of Middle East, particularly Jeddah. But Mark Dunphy will sue ETNZ if it goes there 

 4) Ineos/UK have teamed with Merc F1 

5) Americans are changing dance partners after NYYC pulled out

That's about it

 

 

 

Can the NYYC actually pull out, when they had had never officially entered into AC37?

When does the entry period open? Dec 1?

[Rennmaus 3,060]

10 minutes ago, ChairborneRanger said:

Correct. Previous Protocol's have taken longer and some venue decisions even longer, so why are some grumpy old holey undies in a twist over waiting such a short amount of time?

I bet the venue still wont be announced, which I'm fine with. There will be plenty of meat in the Protocol to keep people busy and at the end of the day, a venue is wet with wind, so I'm happy to forget about it until it's actually announced.

It's not like ETNZ are designing to a venue anyway, if they don't even know which one it is.

You're right, it's just another broken promise by this team. Who cares anymore?

[Forourselves 1,690]

25 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

You're right, it's just another broken promise by this team. Who cares anymore?

Is that what this is about? They made a “promise” to you and you feel they’ve broken it? Sheesh, the date hasn’t even come around for the protocol release and the “deadline” you people go on and on and on and on about was simply an internal goal that wasn’t even a hard deadline, hence “on or around”. 
SURELY it’s more important to have the venue process completed thoroughly to ensure all parties are satisfied with the selection process, all due diligence is completed throughly so that no issues arise later rather than rush the selection process and have to alter the planned allocation of funds and have an event that underperforms? That just makes more sense than “oh they promised me they’d have one by now and they broke that promise and now my feelings are hurt” sheesh.

[sunseeker 454]

38 minutes ago, ChairborneRanger said:

Can the NYYC actually pull out, when they had had never officially entered into AC37?

When does the entry period open? Dec 1?

You are of course correct, but NYYC telling the world they aren’t coming back is a serious message to the members of RNZYS and the Kiwi government. 

[Forourselves 1,690]

3 minutes ago, sunseeker said:

You are of course correct, but NYYC telling the world they aren’t coming back is a serious message to the members of RNZYS and the Kiwi government. 

The Kiwi government don’t give a crap about the NYYC. Infact it probably just validates the fact that they stuck to their guns in not increasing their offer which they said was “final”. All the RNZYS cares about is fulfilling their duties as custodian of the America’s Cup and ensuring their obligations under the DoG are met. The rest is left to the Team. 

[barfy 1,302]

19 minutes ago, sunseeker said:

You are of course correct, but NYYC telling the world they aren’t coming back is a serious message to the members of RNZYS and the Kiwi government. 

NYYC had/has some internal problems.

American Magic racing team will be in AC 37.

We intend to compete at the 37th America's Cup, and to leverage all that we learned and gained from our campaign for Auckland 2021 as we move forward

What's the message?

Edited November 3, 2021 by barfy

[JALhazmat 1,611]

9 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

Does the Deed say they have to race in daylight? 

Does the deed say it all has to be televised and shown on a live global feed? No, but the holders seem pretty bloody insistent about  it. 

[Forourselves 1,690]

59 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Does the deed say it all has to be televised and shown on a live global feed? No, but the holders seem pretty bloody insistent about  it. 

Most if not all professional sports events are televised.

Welcome to modern technology lol

[enigmatically2 1,468]

Does missing the "deadlines" matter (to anyone outside SA)? Yes, of course it does for a number of reasons

1) Because each deadline missed damages GD's credibility (and he has missed the venue one however 4 spins it). Exactly the same as any walk of life. If I set a deadline at work and miss it, my credibility would be damaged too. The next time GD promises there will be a little bit less trust than there would have been. And each missed deadline worsens that. Now so far it won't have done too much damage but it still matters. And slowly suspicion that GD knows the venue and is thus gaining an advantage will also grow the longer it goes on (though I do not claim that is a factor yet)

2) Because until there is a venue and protocol, other challengers cannot or will not throw their hat in the ring, With no venue and no protocol and fewer confirmed entrants that in turn makes it harder for all to get sponsors (if they still need them which I suspect all but GB do

3) Because each missed deadline will strengthen the case of Dunphy and other kiwi malcontents who can point to GD not having the funding needed. 

4) Because JR/BA patience is not infinite. At some point it will run out and they will force the issue with a DoG challenge or threat of one. Again we aren't there yet, but if the venue and protocol aren't nailed down by the end of January I think it will be getting there.

Now none of those are critical yet (IMO) but the longer it goes on the more they will all grow. And we will only realise they have gone critical after the event

 

And yes it is true that other holders have taken 12 months, but are GD's supporters really now judging him only by comparison to the worst performers in history? 

 

[dogwatch 1,311]

^

It appears LR and AM have already thrown their hats in the ring, at least at the level of telling the world who they have hired for AC37. Apart from, maybe, Alinghi, there don't appear to be any other potentials. It is reasonable to assume Ineos, LR and AM are all a bit more in the loop on venue than SAAC and none of the real teams are squealing yet. So I'm not actually convinced the delay really matters. I do however agree that GD is starting to look out of control.

World tour in 40s, Prada Cup and Match in AUK is now my WAG. I don't think AM would have issued their recent release if Jeddah was on the cards for the main event.

[enigmatically2 1,468]

22 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

^

It appears LR and AM have already thrown their hats in the ring, at least at the level of telling the world who they have hired for AC37. Apart from, maybe, Alinghi, there don't appear to be any other potentials. It is reasonable to assume Ineos, LR and AM are all a bit more in the loop on venue than SAAC and none of the real teams are squealing yet.

But it would make it a lot easier for LR, AM and Alinghi to get sponsors if they could point to definite entrants rather than just saying who they have hired, You also missed S&S (though I have my doubts)

I'm sure Ineos are more in the loop than us, but LR and AM will be less so. But by the same token if they are squealing we may not know about it. By the time Ineos is squealing publicly I suspect we will be very close to a DoG challenge

 

[dogwatch 1,311]

39 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

But it would make it a lot easier for LR, AM and Alinghi to get sponsors if they could point to definite entrants rather than just saying who they have hired, You also missed S&S (though I have my doubts)

They are all $B teams, they don't need no stinking sponsors.

Omission of S&S was intentional.

[JALhazmat 1,611]

2 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Most if not all professional sports events are televised.

Welcome to modern technology lol

But but it’s not in the deed…. 
 

so night races then? That’s gonna work well 

[Stingray~ 2,262]

I just figure the reason for delay on the venue(s) is because they still have none besides Auckland. 

[Fiji Bitter 1,972]

8 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

I just figure the reason for delay on the venue(s) is because they still have none besides Auckland. 

Thanks for your sharp and very timely analysis!

[Stingray~ 2,262]

2 hours ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Thanks for your sharp and very timely analysis!

Got a better reason for why nobody has any f’ing clue where the next AC will be held? Can you top ‘They have none’? 
 

[dogwatch 1,311]

2 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

I just figure the reason for delay on the venue(s) is because they still have none besides Auckland. 

There are many fine venues. Ones that will pay what GD wants.....not so many.

[enigmatically2 1,468]

13 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Got a better reason for why nobody has any f’ing clue where the next AC will be held? Can you top ‘They have none’? 
 

They have so many top offers they don't know which one to choose. With so many to pick from it takes ages to do all the due diligence on them all. Then they have to visit each one to do an evaluation.

Could take years.

 

[dent 28]

13 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

Could be quite pretty. Little lights on boats, festive markers, dark starry night sky...night vision go pros onncrew....

If it was held in Jeddah and they were sailing at night, i would not be surprised at all if they lit up the whole course somehow with flood lights like they do with the F1 track.

[JALhazmat 1,611]

Yes it would be just like F1… big floaty lighting towers illuminating 10s of square mikes of ocean really pushing that sustainable agenda. 

or does each boat get its own helicopter and spot light? Lol 

awesome for the spectator fleets too…go out and enjoy the beautiful completely dark coastline and ocean, the sponsor/corporate gig will be loving that. 
add in the circling helicopters for a dose of added  calamity while you are at it 

[porthos 390]

1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

Got a better reason for why nobody has any f’ing clue where the next AC will be held? Can you top ‘They have none’? 
 

I suspect there are people who have a at least some clue of where the next AC will be held. They just don't post here. Nor would I expect them to. 

[Stingray~ 2,262]

36 minutes ago, porthos said:

I suspect there are people who have a at least some clue of where the next AC will be held. They just don't post here. Nor would I expect them to. 

In previous events there was extensive media coverage leading up to Valencia, San Francisco, Bermuda and Aukland. This time there were drips of coverage from Cork and then Valencia but both have trickled out. It ~is~ pretty weird.. As if ‘there is nothing at all going on.’ Shrug. 

[enigmatically2 1,468]

The other point I should have made in why the delay matters is that it is a truism that the one thing you never have enough of in an AC challenge is time. And if the end point is truly fixed in 2024 then the delay is effectively reducing the amount of that most valuable commodity.

[Xlot 1,162]

As an aside: come to think of it, why should GD get to keep ALL of the venue purse (other than what’s needed for running the event), wouldn’t Challengers be entitled to a portion like in AC32? There, Alinghi got 50% of surplus, and Challengers split the balance.

But of course, that was Evil Ernie ...

 

[Rennmaus 3,060]

2 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

They have so many top offers they don't know which one to choose. With so many to pick from it takes ages to do all the due diligence on them all. Then they have to visit each one to do an evaluation.

Could take years.

 

Hey, @enigmatically2, why have you given your login data to 4ourselvws? 
 

1 hour ago, JALhazmat said:

Yes it would be just like F1… big floaty lighting towers illuminating 10s of square mikes of ocean really pushing that sustainable agenda. 

or does each boat get its own helicopter and spot light? Lol 

awesome for the spectator fleets too…go out and enjoy the beautiful completely dark coastline and ocean, the sponsor/corporate gig will be loving that. 
add in the circling helicopters for a dose of added  calamity while you are at it 

Bold: This would also solve the issue of delays due to lack of wind. The helis could generate the required air pressure for their boat.

[porthos 390]

34 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

In previous events there was extensive media coverage leading up to Valencia, San Francisco, Bermuda and Aukland. This time there were drips of coverage from Cork and then Valencia but both have trickled out. It ~is~ pretty weird.. As if ‘there is nothing at all going on.’ Shrug. 

This cycle may be different.  We are sort of in new territory with what appears to be a financially-strapped defender.

Regardless, there are surely negotiations and conversations occurring regarding the venue, and I would further wager that TNZ is keeping certain teams (INEOS certainly but likely also LR and AM) informed of the status of those negotiations such that more than "nobody" has a "clue" what is happening with the venue.  The silence of INEOS, LR, and AM to me is rather telling. I suspect they know exactly what is going on.    

[porthos 390]

19 minutes ago, Xlot said:

As an aside: come to think of it, why should GD get to keep ALL of the venue purse (other than what’s needed for running the event), wouldn’t Challengers be entitled to a portion like in AC32? There, Alinghi got 50% of surplus, and Challengers split the balance.

But of course, that was Evil Ernie ...

 

Depends on what the protocol says. The AC32 protocol required profit-sharing and identified which teams got what. There is certainly nothing requiring TNZ to share any funds from a hosting agreement with anybody else. 

[enigmatically2 1,468]

6 minutes ago, porthos said:

Depends on what the protocol says. The AC32 protocol required profit-sharing and identified which teams got what. There is certainly nothing requiring TNZ to share any funds from a hosting agreement with anybody else. 

Nor if course is there anything requiring Ineos to agree to it if it doesn't.  Interesting times

[porthos 390]

8 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

Nor if course is there anything requiring Ineos to agree to it if it doesn't.  Interesting times

Sure. INEOS has a fair amount of leverage this cycle and, if it chose to do so, could make life very difficult for TNZ. Nothing so far indicates that INEOS has any intention of doing that.  I get the sense, rather, that JR is willing to let TNZ do what it has to in order to have a fair shot at retaining the cup. Maybe that's out of a sense of fair play, or maybe it's for some other reason. And maybe INEOS will eventually bring out the long knives.  Who knows.

Interesting times, indeed.

[dogwatch 1,311]

54 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

 And if the end point is truly fixed in 2024

Questionable. Many have pointed out the clash with the Olympics.

[Liquid 645]

Has the amazing Mr Dalts found enough money yet?

[Stingray~ 2,262]

So.. Everyone including Dalts is ‘in the dark’ ?

[Forourselves 1,690]

If INEOS is going to disagree, they would've done it by now.

They have a week and a half to forego mutual consent.

Once the protocol is released and published, its over, and mutual consent has been achieved.

This thing is going ahead by mutual consent.

 

[dogwatch 1,311]

5 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

So.. Everyone including Dalts is ‘in the dark’ ?

Venue and protocol lay hid in Night.

God said, 'Let Fourselves be!' and all was light.

[Pizza on Fire 11]

On 11/2/2021 at 2:52 PM, Chobani Sailor said:

Entry into AC37 will begin on our around December 1.  TNZ gets the first AC40, Ineos gets the second AC40.  Other entrants get their AC40 based on when they enter the regatta.  AC40 prices NZD2.5M a piece.  AC37 entrants get priority on the AC40s before AC40 Youth and Women's entries.

Location won't be announced until sometime after the new year.  (because they don't have a location).  Having said that, considering NZ and Europe are really on holiday until the middle of January, my guess is we won't be hearing about a location until February 1.    If it is Jeddah and you have every one of their brothers suing TNZ or the yacht club about the location.......

This is going to be a great cup cycle - insert eyeroll

 

Putting aside your hatred towards Arabs would you care elaborating on what legal grounds would anyone sue TNZ/RNZYS if Jiddah were the chosen location?

This is a serious question. What is, legally, the difference between Cork/Valencia and Jiddah, assuming the Match dates are the ones dictated by the DoG? I still don't understand why so many MAJOR sports organizations can hold successful events in the Kingdom but for some mysterious reason sailing can't.  

By the way, read this article and watch the video F1 published yesterday: https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.the-circuit-the-challenge-and-the-culture-how-jeddah-is-shaping-up-for-the.6nm5W4zEpXtCKsA3VQBkgb.html

What a shock!! A blond woman, wearing pants and with no veil is in Jiddah, inside the F1 track, and hasn't been decapitated by warmongering, blood-thirsty Muslims. 

Seriously, the port and the corniche will be spectacular in three years time, just the perfect venue for Grant Dalton's circus. In the end, money talks and bullshit walks and for the foreseeable future, whether we like it or not, money isn't in Europe but in the Gulf's oil and gas producing countries.    

[porthos 390]

10 minutes ago, Pizza on Fire said:

Putting aside your hatred towards Arabs would you care elaborating on what legal grounds would anyone sue TNZ/RNZYS if Jiddah were the chosen location?

This is a serious question. What is, legally, the difference between Cork/Valencia and Jiddah, assuming the Match dates are the ones dictated by the DoG? I still don't understand why so many MAJOR sports organizations can hold successful events in the Kingdom but for some mysterious reason sailing can't.  

By the way, read this article and watch the video F1 published yesterday: https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.the-circuit-the-challenge-and-the-culture-how-jeddah-is-shaping-up-for-the.6nm5W4zEpXtCKsA3VQBkgb.html

What a shock!! A blond woman, wearing pants and with no veil is in Jiddah, inside the F1 track, and hasn't been decapitated by warmongering, blood-thirsty Muslims. 

Seriously, the port and the corniche will be spectacular in three years time, just the perfect venue for Grant Dalton's circus. In the end, money talks and bullshit walks and for the foreseeable future, whether we like it or not, money isn't in Europe but in the Gulf's oil and gas producing countries.    

Hamish Ross has offered an opinion here on what the legal action might be (and it does not involve NY courts).  I can't speak to what the laws are in New Zealand, nor can I speak the likelihood of whether any legal action in New Zealand would be successful. I have already expressed my disagreement with Dr. Ross over whether the musing of Justice Kornreich in her October 27, 2009 opinion and order regarding the applicability of NY discrimination laws to non-NY venues are binding on any future NY court.   

[pusslicker 663]

24 minutes ago, Pizza on Fire said:

Putting aside your hatred towards Arabs would you care elaborating on what legal grounds would anyone sue TNZ/RNZYS if Jiddah were the chosen location?

    

Nice. I like how you're using the current definition of hate that means anyone that doesn't agree with your opinion. It's a brutal dictatorship and western people don't want their sporting events there. It has nothing to do with Arabs at all. 

[dogwatch 1,311]

15 minutes ago, porthos said:

Hamish Ross has offered an opinion here on what the legal action might be (and it does not involve NY courts).  

From which:

Ross has claimed that Team New Zealand’s chosen Challenger of Record, the Royal Yacht Squadron (RYS), was invalid as the challenge was made in the name of a limited liability company owned by RYS, rather than by the yacht club entity itself, and arguably in breach of the Cup’s governing Deed of Gift.

Oh dear. Firstly, the CoR is precisely not the RYS, it is RYSR. Secondly the latter is not owned by the RYS, it is a company limited by guarantee and is consequently beneficially owned by its members. Two basic errors in a single sentence.

[Pizza on Fire 11]

32 minutes ago, porthos said:

Hamish Ross has offered an opinion here on what the legal action might be (and it does not involve NY courts).  I can't speak to what the laws are in New Zealand, nor can I speak the likelihood of whether any legal action in New Zealand would be successful. I have already expressed my disagreement with Dr. Ross over whether the musing of Justice Kornreich in her October 27, 2009 opinion and order regarding the applicability of NY discrimination laws to non-NY venues are binding on any future NY court.   

Don't forget that when that decision was issued, 12 years ago, Israel and the UAE had no official diplomatic relations. A lot of water has flowed under the bridge since then and the UAE and Israel now have fully-fledged ties. El Al flies from Tel Aviv to Dubai, 3/4 times a week, and a quarter of a million Israelís have visited Dubai since the establishment of relations!!! 

Even if KSA doesn't fully normalize its relations with Israel, there won't be any issue with Israeli citizens or Jewish fans and team members visiting the venue. They would get a tourist visa. I mean, Bibi himself visited Riyadh to meet with MBS and Pompeo a year ago!!   

I'm sure Hamish Ross will find this is an interesting read: https://forward.com/news/467122/meet-the-rabbi-bringing-judaism-to-saudi-arabia/

Saudi authorities have allowed an Israeli Rabbi to hold religious services in Saudi Arabia since two years!!!!

Guys, you need to drink less of that MAGA koolaid!!!

[dogwatch 1,311]

2 minutes ago, Pizza on Fire said:

Even if KSA doesn't fully normalize its relations with Israel, there won't be any issue with Israeli citizens or Jewish fans and team members visiting the venue. They would get a tourist visa. I mean, Bibi himself visited Riyadh to meet with MBS and Pompeo a year ago!!     

Some years ago I did some work in Riyadh and met another expat, an Australian Jew, who'd been working in KSA for years. It slightly surprised me but he said, it isn't a problem.

[pusslicker 663]

15 minutes ago, Pizza on Fire said:

Don't forget that when that decision was issued, 12 years ago, Israel and the UAE had no official diplomatic relations. A lot of water has flowed under the bridge since then and the UAE and Israel now have fully-fledged ties. El Al flies from Tel Aviv to Dubai, 3/4 times a week, and a quarter of a million Israelís have visited Dubai since the establishment of relations!!! 

Even if KSA doesn't fully normalize its relations with Israel, there won't be any issue with Israeli citizens or Jewish fans and team members visiting the venue. They would get a tourist visa. I mean, Bibi himself visited Riyadh to meet with MBS and Pompeo a year ago!!   

I'm sure Hamish Ross will find this is an interesting read: https://forward.com/news/467122/meet-the-rabbi-bringing-judaism-to-saudi-arabia/

Saudi authorities have allowed an Israeli Rabbi to hold religious services in Saudi Arabia since two years!!!!

Guys, you need to drink less of that MAGA koolaid!!!

Ah, MBS. Maybe he'll get some fresh journalists out this to chop up. Just saying that a Rabbi was "allowed" to hold a religious service says it all.

[Forourselves 1,690]

In two weeks time this entire storm in a teacup will be over. The protocol will be released, mutual consent established and the event will go on as planned.

Only a week and a half left to get your conspiracy theories in people! After that, all those theories are worthless.

[Stingray~ 2,262]

A Tran of this https://www.lastampa.it/mare/2021/11/03/news/america-s-cup-il-17-novembre-il-protocollo-ma-la-sede-puo-slittare-1.40881207/amp/

 

America's Cup, on November 17 the Protocol but the headquarters can slip

Emirates Team New Zealand's AC75 in the last America's Cup

Expectation is growing for the announcement of Team New Zealand and the Challenger of record Ineos Uk. The rules are likely to be revealed, but not the location. Attorney Ross: delay beyond permission. Kiwis don't care: in the past it was indicated a year after the last race

FABIO POZZO

November 03, 2021

Expectation is growing for the announcement of the Defender Team New Zealand on November 17 on Protocol and venue (proced to be confirmed as the date 2024) of the next America's Cup. But it is not excluded that it can be a half-aid announcement: the rules will be revealed, but not the location of the regattas.

Things are not easy in New Zealand. As elsewhere, after all. The impossibility of traveling, armored borders, mandatory quarantine for those who cross borders (on which Russell Coutts also recently thundered, pointing the index against the government) are objective impediments to operations, which means first of all inspections.

In New Zealand, lawyer Hamish Ross, already Alinghi's consultant in the past and according to Team New Zealand also to Mark Dunphy, the Kiwi millionaire who would like the defense of the Cup in New Zealand (see the spy-story denounced by Grant Dalton & C, who would have seen Dunphy also in contact with the New York Yacht Club to put the sticks in the wheels to the CEO of the All Blacks of sailing), returns to the attack saying - I read on Scuttlebutt - that the search for the offshore headquarters (therefore, it is certain that the defense will not be held in New Zealand) is dwelling beyond the allowed. Ross also adds more flour to his bag, from the invalidity of the Challenger of record because at the time of the investiture it was the expression of a company and not of the Royal Yacht Squadron of Cowes, which gives the lead to Ineos UK, to the hypothesis that if the headquarters were Jeddah in Saudi Arabia this would not be valid according to a 2009 ruling of the Supreme Court of New York about the headquarters of the off limits Cup if in nations that do not respect human rights.

Returning to the delay in indicating the America's Cup location, they don't care that much at Team New Zealand base. In the past, they point out, the venue has always been announced a year after the end of the last race. So, there's time. Even after November 17th.

[accnick 1,737]

2 hours ago, Forourselves said:

If INEOS is going to disagree, they would've done it by now.

They have a week and a half to forego mutual consent.

Once the protocol is released and published, its over, and mutual consent has been achieved.

This thing is going ahead by mutual consent.

 

Once the Protocol is signed by both Challenger and Defender, not necessarily released and published, they have reached mutual consent. Then both teams have to comply with the letter of the Protocol.

[Stingray~ 2,262]

7 minutes ago, accnick said:

Once the Protocol is signed by both Challenger and Defender, not necessarily released and published, they have reached mutual consent. Then both teams have to comply with the letter of the Protocol.

It will be interesting to see what latitude the MC’d Protocol gives to venues notifications, Design Rule changes and change-authorities, due-by dates, etc.

[enigmatically2 1,468]

2 hours ago, Pizza on Fire said:

In the end, money talks and bullshit walks and for the foreseeable future, whether we like it or not, money isn't in Europe but in the Gulf's oil and gas producing countries.    

And what money gets you talking up how wonderful KSA is? Whilst ignoring the question as to why if KSA is so warm and cuddly it still appears near the bottom of human rights ranking tables. It has improved but still a long way down.

How much longer will oil states have the money I wonder

[accnick 1,737]

33 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

It will be interesting to see what latitude the MC’d Protocol gives to venues notifications, Design Rule changes and change-authorities, due-by dates, etc.

Yes, it will. Those are a big part of any Protocol.

[ChairborneRanger 77]

21 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

You're right, it's just another broken promise by this team. Who cares anymore?

A missed deadline = a broken promise? 

Hahaha, you should right for the NZ herald.

Deadlines get missed. Move on. It could take a few more months yet, and it will still be quicker than some venue announcements. 

[ChairborneRanger 77]

We all know the reasons against Jeddah, but if it does turn out to be the venue, for the sake of balance, is it worth looking behind the white robes to see what arguments there are for it?

Massive NZ Trade Partner worth $1B a year to NZ...

Ummm, that's all I've got..

There must be more...

[JALhazmat 1,611]

3 hours ago, Pizza on Fire said:

Putting aside your hatred towards Arabs would you care elaborating on what legal grounds would anyone sue TNZ/RNZYS if Jiddah were the chosen location?

This is a serious question. What is, legally, the difference between Cork/Valencia and Jiddah, assuming the Match dates are the ones dictated by the DoG? I still don't understand why so many MAJOR sports organizations can hold successful events in the Kingdom but for some mysterious reason sailing can't.  

By the way, read this article and watch the video F1 published yesterday: https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.the-circuit-the-challenge-and-the-culture-how-jeddah-is-shaping-up-for-the.6nm5W4zEpXtCKsA3VQBkgb.html

What a shock!! A blond woman, wearing pants and with no veil is in Jiddah, inside the F1 track, and hasn't been decapitated by warmongering, blood-thirsty Muslims. 

Seriously, the port and the corniche will be spectacular in three years time, just the perfect venue for Grant Dalton's circus. In the end, money talks and bullshit walks and for the foreseeable future, whether we like it or not, money isn't in Europe but in the Gulf's oil and gas producing countries.    

What time of day is the F1 happening? 
 

as a clue, it’s not during the day… why would that be? A touch warm in the midday sun maybe? 
 

[ChairborneRanger 77]

Take a tour of Jeddah...

https://www.facebook.com/watch?v=268577531867654 

[Forourselves 1,690]

2 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

And what money gets you talking up how wonderful KSA is? Whilst ignoring the question as to why if KSA is so warm and cuddly it still appears near the bottom of human rights ranking tables. It has improved but still a long way down.

How much longer will oil states have the money I wonder

F1 gets its first female driver. WWE just held an event in SA that saw women perform. Not ideal, but not the end of the world either. 

[Xlot 1,162]

1 hour ago, ChairborneRanger said:

Take a tour of Jeddah...

https://www.facebook.com/watch?v=268577531867654 

Yep, banked corners go very well with the AC75’s latest tacking technique ...

Rather, why don’t you scroll from city center North to the airport, and tell us how many marinas you see?

 

[pusslicker 663]

4 hours ago, Forourselves said:

F1 gets its first female driver. 

Eh? Like 60 years ago or more.

[JALhazmat 1,611]

7 hours ago, Forourselves said:

F1 gets its first female driver. WWE just held an event in SA that saw women perform. Not ideal, but not the end of the world either. 

Yeah bullshit on that  … the first female F1 driver was in 1958… and it had nothing to do with SA and it’s “progress”

 

 

[JALhazmat 1,611]

8 hours ago, ChairborneRanger said:

Take a tour of Jeddah...

https://www.facebook.com/watch?v=268577531867654 

An awful of lighting towers around the track? Like they are going to race at night or something when it’s cooler? 

[Pizza on Fire 11]

12 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

And what money gets you talking up how wonderful KSA is? Whilst ignoring the question as to why if KSA is so warm and cuddly it still appears near the bottom of human rights ranking tables. It has improved but still a long way down.

How much longer will oil states have the money I wonder

Actually, the transition to greener energy is a boost for oil producers, short to medium term. There is fewer money going into capex, fewer new oil cells and with consumption still rising, albeit very slowly, demand outstrips offer. Europe will have a tough winter if it gets very cold and Putin will be laughing on his way to the bank to cash his euros... 

This pattern will probably hold for another 10 years, so for all of you that stand on the moral high ground, I'm sorry but there will be substantial Gulf money for sports until at 2030. Crunch time for them will probably come around 2040 but that's still a few Cup cycles away. 

KSA isn't paying me anything, it's the hypocrisy that bothers me. Let's stick to sailing in this forum.

The bottom line is that Grant Dalton needs 100 million US dollars to fund his team and is asking foreign governments to pay for it. Good for him if he can pull this off, I wish him all the success. TNZ is a great team and all I care about is sailing spectacle, so the more and stronger teams the better, but, realistically, only Gulf monarchies have that amount of cash to gift him right now, given the small ROI this travelling circus will provide. (Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan could be nice alternatives but it's a pity the Deed of Gift doesn't allow the Match to take place in the Caspian Sea . Baku would be a great venue!) 

Having said that, Cork or Valencia would be nice as well, they have direct flights from Amsterdam. Cheers!!