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The AC 37 has started, news and rumours


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16 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

The argument that the money in Auckland is ‘not enough for a successful defense’ could be a bogus one. Key word being ‘enough.’ 

+1.

16 hours ago, chesirecat said:

Its a dangerous possibility since D & Co actually think they can run a successful defence so if they've persuaded a majority, also a distinct possibility he could leave. Interestingly GD has not threatened resigning, which would hand Dumpty the initiative. Dalton could then leave on the high ground free of any moral responsibly or loyalty. 

what did I miss. hasn't Dalton already freed himself from the the constraints of loyalty and moral responsibility?

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On Hamish Ross and the Discrimination Issue: This will be long, pedantic, and legal.  I apologize for the length; read at your own risk. Hamish Ross has recently claimed on multiple occasion

I’m not calling this out for the sake of ostracizing you, nor to play PC police on a forum that is notorious for the opposite of that. I could just hit ignore, delete or whatever. I’m calling this out

Hilarious to watch Kiwis who've been around since AC35 twist themselves into intellectual pretzels to give ETNZ a pass on what they screamed bloody murder about when Oracle did it. Even Oracle di

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26 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Why do people think the AC is "just a regatta"? Its not just a regatta. Its not just about putting on a boat race.

Its about producing a PRODUCT. 

TV/ Internet broadcasting rights need to be sold, in order to do that, TV broadcasters expect a high quality broadcast option, otherwise they're not going to buy it.

As with any professional sport, competitors need to get paid, which means teams require sponsors, which means sponsors require exposure, where do they get that exposure? TV and internet coverage. Like it or not, thats just the way it is.

So enough with the "its just a boat race" because its not just a boat race, its product, and it needs to be sold. This is the case whether its a billionaire running the show, or Team NZ. Either way, its product. Someone has to buy it in order for it to go ahead. No ones buying a half arsed, bush league production. 

When you only have a handful of teams that create very little exposure(sans American Magic's capsize, Andrew Simpson's death) it's impossible to get worldwide exposure that can bring in serious sponsorship funding to the teams.

Why do we have very few teams competing - because the entry cost is so high and TNZ and LR compounded the expense problem with these foiling mono-hauls.  Furthermore TNZ/GD has compounded it even further in AC37 by requiring an AC40 and 2 HSVs. 

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1 minute ago, Rennmaus said:

And GD wanted to bring the Cup nearer to the DoG. So, what are you actually talking (writing) about?

Did he? All along, he's a lead a primarily commercially-sponsored team. None of the aspects that derive from that, in particular increasing sponsor value through media exposure, have anything to do with the DoG.

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3 minutes ago, Chobani Sailor said:

Why do we have very few teams competing - because the entry cost is so high and TNZ and LR compounded the expense problem with these foiling mono-hauls.  

That's a reason but not the only reason. The cheap-as-chips F50s attracted 6 teams, the AC75s had 4. 6 wasn't a lot either. AC33 buggered up continuity for the 12 teams of AC32 and the uncertainty brought about by the legal actions have made AC sponsorship a hard sell ever since. 

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39 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

Did he? All along, he's a lead a primarily commercially-sponsored team. None of the aspects that derive from that, in particular increasing sponsor value through media exposure, have anything to do with the DoG.

The usual blah-blah of a challenger that is forgotten when the challenger becomes defender.

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11 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

The usual blah-blah of a challenger that is forgotten when the challenger becomes defender.

The rough-diamond straight-talking bloke image of AC33 has taken a bit of a knock lately. And good-grief, he's looking old for his age. Is he a well man?

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42 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

The rough-diamond straight-talking bloke image of AC33 has taken a bit of a knock lately. And good-grief, he's looking old for his age. Is he a well man?

Almost posted the same about him looking older. But we really haven't seen much of him during the Bermuda and Auckland campaigns, maybe we didn't get used to his gradual aging. Seems plenty mentally sharp, still. 

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Just now, Stingray~ said:

Almost posted the same about him looking older. But we really haven't seen much of him during the Bermuda and Auckland campaigns, maybe we didn't get used to his aging. Seems plenty mentally sharp, still. 

I hate to tell you, but we all age, and the older we get, the more rapidly we age.

If you're lucky, you'll get to see that for yourself.

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24 minutes ago, accnick said:

I hate to tell you, but we all age, and the older we get, the more rapidly we age.

If you're lucky, you'll get to see that for yourself.

For sure, am late 50's and beginning to notice :)

GD looks healthy enough for being (what?) mid-60's.

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2 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

I see nothing of the stuff you wrote in the DoG. Nothing. And GD wanted to bring the Cup nearer to the DoG. So, what are you actually talking (writing) about?

It IS closer to the DoG. By virtue of the advantages you people bleat about on a daily basis.

The problem is, it’s a double edged sword. On one hand you have the DoG which is being more closely adhered to than it ever did in AC34 or 35. It is your problems that have NOTHING to do with the DoG. There is NOTHING in the DoG that prevents ETNZ from holding the AC offshore, yet that doesn’t stop you bleating on and on about how “wrong” it is and shouldn’t happen. The simple reason is Team ANZ is a commercially sponsored team reliant on sponsorship to survive. That means if they can’t get that funding or sponsorship in NZ, they must find it offshore. AGAIN, it is YOUR continuous bleating about “it should always be held in the Defenders home waters, when Nowhere does the Deed mention it. The precedent has already been broken twice now, so they’re not even breaking from history either! 
So what’s the issue. The DoG is the governing document and is being adhered to, so there should be NO issue.

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5 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

For sure, am late 50's and beginning to notice :)

GD looks healthy enough for being (what?) mid-60's.

Yes, 64 I believe. I know a lot of people of similar age and he looks old for it.

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My long-argued point too:

America's Cup: The Protocol discussed - Tip & Shaft (tipandshaft.com)

Bruno Dubois is more nuanced: “It’s a way for Team New Zealand to protect itself, it also prevents a challenge from coming in with lots of money to buy up top sailors. Afterwards, I find it unfortunate that the rule is not applied everywhere: it is imposed on sailors, for the construction of boats, but why not extend it to designers and engineers?”

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12 hours ago, Forourselves said:

NZL courts don't give a crap about an internal issue in a private yacht club.

They'd just turn around and say "This is your problem, sort it out in mediation and stop wasting our time you spoilt rich bastards"

Not sure “rich” is appropriate ;-)
 

I didn’t think They had any money to defend at home? Or is it the wrong persons money? 
 

Genuinely how the fuck does the Lord and saviour Grant Dalton manage to screw up what should be an absolute slamdunk of a home defence and raising money to do so? 
 

It’s not like he is inexperienced in the job is it? as you keep telling us ;-) 

And don’t you dare use Covid as an excuse

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1 hour ago, JALhazmat said:

And don’t you dare use Covid as an excuse

Why not?  It is becoming clearly apparent that under the Ardern regime NZ will be in lockdown's and isolation until well towards the end of 2022 at least.  Surely that must impact on strategic decisions.  NZ supply chains are stretched, Auckland is economically stuffed and now the Unions are starting to stretch their muscles with strike action which will further disrupt the supply chains.

No wonder the AC40's are being built in OZ.

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The DoG and the America's Cup refer to races between a Defender and Challenger. 

A "PRODUCT" is extras tossed in to get revenue, attract sponsors, garner spectators. 

Challenger selection series, defender selection series (NYYC dats), Christmas Cups, pay per view...all extra stuff tossed in. 

 

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34 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Why not?  It is becoming clearly apparent that under the Ardern regime NZ will be in lockdown's and isolation until well towards the end of 2022 at least.  Surely that must impact on strategic decisions.  NZ supply chains are stretched, Auckland is economically stuffed and now the Unions are starting to stretch their muscles with strike action which will further disrupt the supply chains.

No wonder the AC40's are being built in OZ.

Given the AC is in 2024 I think your stretching it a little.. what happened to planning? 
 

Infrastructure is there already, building the boat? That had to happen anyway home or away defence. 

what on earth went so wrong that all prior support and sponsors have upped and left (apparently) as NZ finds itself in a vote off at the holding YC 

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3 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Yes, 64 I believe. I know a lot of people of similar age and he looks old for it.

Do they have arms like that? Do they impregnate women of child bearing years? He just looks like a guy that has spent all his life out in the sun as a professional sailor. 

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57 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Given the AC is in 2024 I think your stretching it a little.. what happened to planning? 
 

Infrastructure is there already, building the boat? That had to happen anyway home or away defence. 

what on earth went so wrong that all prior support and sponsors have upped and left (apparently) as NZ finds itself in a vote off at the holding YC 

To be fair to GD, Covid did some serious damage to Emirates Air. Then couple that with Covid destroying most sponsor exposure for the last cup, those were out of his control. 
 

However, carrying on in a brutally expensive boat when you already know your money train has dried up?  That’s a self inflicted wound. 

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Just now, Monkey said:

To be fair to GD, Covid did some serious damage to Emirates Air. Then couple that with Covid destroying most sponsor exposure for the last cup, those were out of his control. 
 

However, carrying on in a brutally expensive boat when you already know your money train has dried up?  That’s a self inflicted wound. 

He also depended on one sponsor from an industry that always has these problems. Remember 911. I think he just got lucky and branded as a funding genius, but that isn't working out so well now.

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6 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Why do people think the AC is "just a regatta"? Its not just a regatta. Its not just about putting on a boat race.

Its about producing a PRODUCT. 

TV/ Internet broadcasting rights need to be sold, in order to do that, TV broadcasters expect a high quality broadcast option, otherwise they're not going to buy it.

As with any professional sport, competitors need to get paid, which means teams require sponsors, which means sponsors require exposure, where do they get that exposure? TV and internet coverage. Like it or not, thats just the way it is.

So enough with the "its just a boat race" because its not just a boat race, its product, and it needs to be sold. This is the case whether its a billionaire running the show, or Team NZ. Either way, its product. Someone has to buy it in order for it to go ahead. No ones buying a half arsed, bush league production. 

It’s only a product for a pimp like you and Dalton.

it is just a boat race. 

 Basically, if you have ask, or get sponsors, you can’t afford it. 

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12 minutes ago, loneshark64 said:

This blog captured just about everything I think about what’s wrong with AC37 but better written than I could ever do. Bravo.

If SGP kills the AC, eSailGP will kill SGP. It was very popular. And cheaper to run, too. 

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Let's face it cutting through the chaff that this event as high tech as it is, but also boring at times, is way to expensive to survive especially in small town New Zealand. (If it's that expensive to host as GD says). This is further evident by the clear lack of competitors. It's a sad state of affairs to have 1-2 challengers. I think it's time for a change, not sure what the solution is? Let's see where it ends up but my crystal ball says in a sad and sorry place..! :wacko:

 

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26 minutes ago, loneshark64 said:
6 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Unusually pessimistic/biting by MW here

https://rule69.blog/2021/11/23/grinders-cup/

 

This blog captured just about everything I think about what’s wrong with AC37 but better written than I could ever do. Bravo.

This blog sums it up for me. Bravo to the authors for the summary.! 100% on the money..! 

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11 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

This blog sums it up for me. Bravo to the authors for the summary.! 100% on the money..! 

As I remarked, unusually biting. Anyway, MW will be on TE's show again on Friday, could be another fun segment.

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Just now, Stingray~ said:

As I remarked, unusually biting. Anyway, he will be on TE's show again on Friday, could be a fun segment.

Yet more quality programming from the Lawrence Welk of sailing media (sorry, no purple sarcasm font).

Media interviewing media is just a wankfest. 

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52 minutes ago, sunseeker said:

Yet more quality programming from the Lawrence Welk of sailing media (sorry, no purple sarcasm font).

Media interviewing media is just a wankfest. 

Got anything else to point to fun for AC yakking-about?

You may not enjoy the long format but guess what? I really-really like most of his heroic 450+ shows and dozens of dozens of guests along the way. My phone even has reminders set! :) 

TE is sharper, funnier, classier and better-experienced than many of his guests, quite remarkable even if you you do have some interactive fun disagreeing sometimes as I do too. 

I like the Italian guys too but.. For compared to an English-language twice-weekly show they are simply no comparison - it's just not even close.

edit: yes, I made time to listen to the whole show today and thoroughly enjoyed it end-to-end. A friend knew to arrive only after I predicted it would end, and we shot three games of billiards after, perfect. And btw? He wants to go with me to..... Auckland in '24! :)

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4 hours ago, sunseeker said:

It’s only a product for a pimp like you and Dalton.

it is just a boat race. 

 Basically, if you have ask, or get sponsors, you can’t afford it. 

Every sport is product. From rugby, to cricket, to Sailing, to American Football, to basketball, to Football, to Formula 1, to World Rally Championship, to the X games, to fishing, they're all product. Any sport you watch online or on TV is product. Thats just fact.

They all have markets to which they sell to. They all have sponsors they sign up, they all have TV deals, they all sell merch, sailing and the AC is no different.

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5 hours ago, sunseeker said:

It’s only a product for a pimp like you and Dalton.

it is just a boat race. 

 Basically, if you have ask, or get sponsors, you can’t afford it. 

F1 gets sponsors, Football gets sponsors, rugby gets sponsors, boxing, cricket, Major league Baseball, NFL, netball, sailing, they all need sponsors to survive.

Not sure why you think sailing is any different. Unless you think you're part of the elite old boys club.

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8 minutes ago, sailman said:

Has Dalton ever made it clear why he needs north of $100M to run this regatta?  Does his greed know no bounds?  Has any third party accounting firm ever looked at ETNZ’s books?

Hes won the Cup twice. Challenger and defender. Is there anyone that can tell him he doesn't know what he's doing?

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26 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Hes won the Cup twice. Challenger and defender. Is there anyone that can tell him he doesn't know what he's doing?

There's a chance he's fucked this one up. You might not think so, but you can't say it's non-zero.

What happens if the offshore venue doesn't work out, for financial or other reasons, and he HAS to bring it back to Auckland scaled down budget wise?

 

What happens then, will you concede that his game of poker didn't play the cards he wanted?

Will you concede he was wrong in the end?

 

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10 minutes ago, shebeen said:

There's a chance he's fucked this one up. You might not think so, but you can't say it's non-zero.

What happens if the offshore venue doesn't work out, for financial or other reasons, and he HAS to bring it back to Auckland scaled down budget wise?

 

What happens then, will you concede that his game of poker didn't play the cards he wanted?

Will you concede he was wrong in the end?

 

There's just as much "chance" that he hasn't fucked it up as there is that he has. You might not think so, but you can't say its non zero.

His track record with the team is hugely successful. If not for Covid, AC36 would've been more of a success than it was.

What happens if the offshore venue does work? What happens if Dalton wins the Cup again? Will you and every other person who doubted Dalton take it all back and say I was right? 

Will you concede both he and I were right in the end? Probably not.

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7 hours ago, Monkey said:

To be fair to GD, Covid did some serious damage to Emirates Air. Then couple that with Covid destroying most sponsor exposure for the last cup, those were out of his control. 
 

However, carrying on in a brutally expensive boat when you already know your money train has dried up?  That’s a self inflicted wound. 

Destroyed sponsor exposure? You mean the cup that was the most watched ever? Had an audience of over a billion people? 
 

“facts” put out there by GDs team that put the event on to show how successful it was? 
 

 

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7 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

There's just as much "chance" that he hasn't fucked it up as there is that he has. You might not think so, but you can't say its non zero.

His track record with the team is hugely successful. If not for Covid, AC36 would've been more of a success than it was.

What happens if the offshore venue does work? What happens if Dalton wins the Cup again? Will you and every other person who doubted Dalton take it all back and say I was right? 

Will you concede both he and I were right in the end? Probably not.

so you're saying 50% chance he's screwed this one royally? wow, didn't think you'd back down so easily.

 

yes, sure if this whole move is a masterstroke and it turns out that GD played the odds amazingly, got some offshore venue to fund his team and he ends up beating resource rich Ineos and others to win it. yeah sure that would be a success. it wouldn't prove that it was the best course of action, but still one that worked. From where it looks currently, that would be one helluva scoop to pull it off.

I would totally say you were right. I'd probably also say you were a dick about it too, but you can be a wanker and correct.

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2 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Dan B mentioned McConaghy boats had the contract.

And where does McConaghy have the factory... (clue - not in Australia but somewhere were they can have their choice of 1.4 bln people to employ)

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6 hours ago, terrafirma said:

(If it's that expensive to host as GD says

It's just more Dalton bullshit. All you need is a start boat and somebody to lay marks. Nothing else is required by the DoG. There is no need to offer bases, control the TV, set up a village, manage the spectators. Everything could be done at a low to no cost option. For instance, sell the global TV rights, including production. You could even give it away so long as there were conditions to ensure a decent product. And just for the record, that is what all NZers used to say when others were whoring the cup around the world to the highest bidder.

The big reason that Dalton is making a fuss about the cost of running the event is so he can justify going overseas to get a big fat cheque to refill the team's bank account.

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14 minutes ago, SimonN said:

It's just more Dalton bullshit. All you need is a start boat and somebody to lay marks. Nothing else is required by the DoG. There is no need to offer bases, control the TV, set up a village, manage the spectators. Everything could be done at a low to no cost option. For instance, sell the global TV rights, including production. You could even give it away so long as there were conditions to ensure a decent product. And just for the record, that is what all NZers used to say when others were whoring the cup around the world to the highest bidder.

The big reason that Dalton is making a fuss about the cost of running the event is so he can justify going overseas to get a big fat cheque to refill the team's bank account.

So why are you moaning about the small number of challengers? Why are you moaning about costs? The deed doesn't reference low cost options, nor does it mandate multiple challengers.

The DoG only requires 1 Challenger and 1 defender.

 It makes no reference to safety or security of certain teams, nor does it mandate any team must defend in its "home waters" so Jeddah would be a completely Deed compliant venue if Dalton chooses to hold it there.

The DoG only states any arrangement can be made by mutual consent between Challenger and Defender.

Now you see why certain aspects of the event, while not mentioned at all in the DoG still have to be considered when hosting a defence.

You can't cherry pick parts of the Deed you like while ignoring others.

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21 minutes ago, SimonN said:

It's just more Dalton bullshit. All you need is a start boat and somebody to lay marks. Nothing else is required by the DoG. There is no need to offer bases, control the TV, set up a village, manage the spectators. Everything could be done at a low to no cost option. For instance, sell the global TV rights, including production. You could even give it away so long as there were conditions to ensure a decent product. And just for the record, that is what all NZers used to say when others were whoring the cup around the world to the highest bidder.

The big reason that Dalton is making a fuss about the cost of running the event is so he can justify going overseas to get a big fat cheque to refill the team's bank account.

How is Dalton whoring the event out when the DoG does not specify the match be sailed in the "home waters" of the Defender?

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48 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Destroyed sponsor exposure? You mean the cup that was the most watched ever? Had an audience of over a billion people? 
 

“facts” put out there by GDs team that put the event on to show how successful it was? 
 

 

Are you saying the Pandemic is fake?

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42 minutes ago, shebeen said:

so you're saying 50% chance he's screwed this one royally? wow, didn't think you'd back down so easily.

 

yes, sure if this whole move is a masterstroke and it turns out that GD played the odds amazingly, got some offshore venue to fund his team and he ends up beating resource rich Ineos and others to win it. yeah sure that would be a success. it wouldn't prove that it was the best course of action, but still one that worked. From where it looks currently, that would be one helluva scoop to pull it off.

I would totally say you were right. I'd probably also say you were a dick about it too, but you can be a wanker and correct.

Grant Dalton has already played the odds amazingly. His team got beaten 9-8 after being 8-1 up, came back to NZ empty handed, retained his team and position in that team, ran a largely stealth program the next cycle, turned up in Bermuda and destroyed everyone.

Came back home, introduced a revolutionary new concept boat, proved it would and could work, and won a hard fought victory in front of a huge local crowd during a world wide pandemic, that included lock downs and some of the most strict rules and restrictions in the world at that time. And still pulled it off.

There is no reason to believe he can't do it again, unless you're a conspiracy theorist.

 

 

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13 hours ago, Forourselves said:

It IS closer to the DoG. By virtue of the advantages you people bleat about on a daily basis.

The problem is, it’s a double edged sword. On one hand you have the DoG which is being more closely adhered to than it ever did in AC34 or 35. It is your problems that have NOTHING to do with the DoG. There is NOTHING in the DoG that prevents ETNZ from holding the AC offshore, yet that doesn’t stop you bleating on and on about how “wrong” it is and shouldn’t happen. The simple reason is Team ANZ is a commercially sponsored team reliant on sponsorship to survive. That means if they can’t get that funding or sponsorship in NZ, they must find it offshore. AGAIN, it is YOUR continuous bleating about “it should always be held in the Defenders home waters, when Nowhere does the Deed mention it. The precedent has already been broken twice now, so they’re not even breaking from history either! 
So what’s the issue. The DoG is the governing document and is being adhered to, so there should be NO issue.

Apparently you haven't noticed my several posts that clearly state that the DoG is o.k. with any venue selection, especially under MC. So WTF are you on about again? What is it with "you people" all the time and then confusing the discussion? 

I just don't like the whoring out of the Cup, but that has nothing to do with the Deed. 

But tell me, how near to the Deed is prescribing a boat class for a challenge that has not been lodged yet and while the current challenge is not yet decided? 

Oh no, please don't tell me, it could confuse you again. 

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2 hours ago, SimonN said:

It's just more Dalton bullshit. All you need is a start boat and somebody to lay marks. Nothing else is required by the DoG. There is no need to offer bases, control the TV, set up a village, manage the spectators. Everything could be done at a low to no cost option. For instance, sell the global TV rights, including production. You could even give it away so long as there were conditions to ensure a decent product. And just for the record, that is what all NZers used to say when others were whoring the cup around the world to the highest bidder.

The big reason that Dalton is making a fuss about the cost of running the event is so he can justify going overseas to get a big fat cheque to refill HIS bank account.

FIFY

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2 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Grant Dalton has already played the odds amazingly. His team got beaten 9-8 after being 8-1 up, came back to NZ empty handed, retained his team and position in that team, ran a largely stealth program the next cycle, turned up in Bermuda and destroyed everyone.

Came back home, introduced a revolutionary new concept boat, proved it would and could work, and won a hard fought victory in front of a huge local crowd during a world wide pandemic, that included lock downs and some of the most strict rules and restrictions in the world at that time. And still pulled it off.

There is no reason to believe he can't do it again, unless you're a conspiracy theorist.

 

 

no one is denying the history of ETNZ a fancier teams with ingenuity, skill, training and some luck. i say luck because my feeling is that covid was to ETNZ advantage.

Of course they can do it again, but it's currently not looking very good. Dennis Connor also lost it.

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Ah, the good old days, when GD was grateful for the support his country and fellow citizens gave him. 

For sure, the recent developments must make us think about what's happening. 

I'm a LR supporter, since I'm from Italy, but ETNZ has always been my second team. Whenever Luna Rossa was eliminated I cheered for them, and I hoped they would win - even if LR has been quite always stopped by them. They have always been a model for how to overcome budget difficulties thanks to ideas, which also means thanks to people. The Teamthink book about the 95 campaign was a great inspiration to me personally. The thing I've always admired the most about NZ has always been their connection to their country. GD also says the same in this interview: "we are almost a public company". ETNZ is a team, of course, but it is in fact the New Zealand national team. Sailors, designers, builders, suppliers, everything is made in NZ. And what a beautiful publicity ETNZ has always been for New Zealand, a testament to how much a small country can compete - often prevail - against much larger opponents. What Max Sirena is doing with LR is something in the same direction, and it's one of the things I like the most about how he's handling LR (the results too of course). But I'm digressing. What I really want to ask you (and ideally I turn to GD) is: are you really sure of what you're doing? Are you really sure that there was no other way, that the only solution is to really go to another country in order to get some funding that will still put you in a minority position compared to all the other teams? Couldn't it have been done differently ? Maybe in 2023, changing the class rule more, putting more one design elements (which you are doing anyway) in order to maintain your technological superiority? Are you really sure that the damage from moving away from New Zealand is worth the higher budget you will (perhaps) get by competing in another country? Frankly, I think all the other teams are celebrating right now. I remember (because I really followed it day by day) how expensive it was to move LR team to New Zealand. All the teams wasted a lot of time in the logistics of that operation, time that ETNZ in the meantime used to test, design and sail. Not to mention the suppliers, the builders, the support of the people in the streets, and the fact that you know perfectly the waters in which you race. Since 1851 the Defender has been sailing in its home waters (with a few exceptions). There must be a reason, right? And we're not done yet. Let's imagine the worst case scenario (for them): ETNZ loses the Cup. Are we really sure that after cutting the link with the homeland there can still be an ETNZ? What do sponsors look at, in the end, if not the interest generated by one of the assets in which they invest? What happens if ETNZ loses the Cup... and nobody cares in New Zealand? Will there really be a chance to do another challenge? For what, to win a Cup to be defended abroad again? I don't think it's a coincidence that Peter Burling and Blair Tuke haven't signed yet. Perhaps, in case of defeat, they will be the ones to pick up the baton, and to raise the challenge again. Certainly it is a difficult choice, I'm not saying it's easy for GD. Yet somehow I think it would have been possible to organize the defense in Aukland, even a defense that had a fair chance of winning.

That's it, I casually saw this old video. Sorry for the long post. It's just sad to see ETNZ behaving so differently than usual, just like a team, not the NZ national team. 

 

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6 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

April

 

Go Jacinda!

From the NYT:

New Zealand plans to allow most fully vaccinated travelers into the country by the end of April without a mandatory hotel quarantine, as it slowly emerges from what has been one of the world’s longest lockdowns.

But those entering the country next year will face significant restrictions, with a mandatory seven-day home isolation period, as well as tests on departure and arrival. The border will open in stages to different countries, with fully vaccinated New Zealanders and visa holders able to travel from Australia from Jan. 16 and from elsewhere in the world starting Feb. 13. Foreign nationals will follow from April 30.

Experts have for weeks questioned the need for requiring new arrivals to quarantine when the virus is already in the community, and experts say international arrivals seem to pose no additional risk. No fully vaccinated travelers from Australia, for example, have tested positive in New Zealand’s hotel quarantine system since Aug. 23.

Some 84 percent of people in New Zealand age 12 and up are fully vaccinated against the coronavirus. And representatives from the country’s tourism industry, which has struggled to contend with the long absence of foreign visitors, decried the seven-day isolation requirement.

New Zealand has been on edge since August, when an outbreak of the Delta variant erupted in Auckland and put an end to the country’s “zero Covid” approach.

“It’s very encouraging that we as a country are now in a position to move towards greater normality,” Chris Hipkins, the minister responsible for New Zealand’s pandemic response, said at a news conference on Wednesday. “I do want to emphasize, though, that travel in 2022 won’t necessarily be exactly the same as it was in pre-2020 travel.”

For over a year, New Zealand has operated a lottery system for citizens and permanent residents who want to return, locking people out of the country and creating a large backlog. The system has faced legal challenges from people desperate to return home from overseas and be reunited with their families.

New Zealand is waiting until April to fully open to permit time for airlines to plan, he said, as well as to allow a transition to the country’s new “traffic light” pandemic management system that starts Dec. 2. That system will end lockdowns and place significant restrictions on the unvaccinated, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern announced at a news conference on Monday.

On Dec. 15, Auckland — where the country’s outbreak is concentrated — will open its border to the rest of the country.

Before the pandemic, tourism was a big part of the New Zealand economy, employing nearly 230,000 people and contributing 41.9 billion New Zealand dollars ($30.2 billion) a year. About 3.8 million foreign tourists visited between 2018 and 2019, with the majority coming from Australia. Though domestic tourism has surged while borders have been closed, the industry has struggled to make up its losses, as international tourists spend about three times as much per person as their domestic peers.

Defending New Zealand’s caution, Mr. Hipkins pointed to the new virus wave that is crashing through Europe. “As we move into 2022, we know that the pandemic is not over,” he said. “It’s not going to suddenly end, and we only need to look at Europe to know that the path out of the pandemic is not a straightforward one

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10 hours ago, shebeen said:

There's a chance he's fucked this one up. You might not think so, but you can't say it's non-zero.

What happens if the offshore venue doesn't work out, for financial or other reasons, and he HAS to bring it back to Auckland scaled down budget wise?

 

What happens then, will you concede that his game of poker didn't play the cards he wanted?

Will you concede he was wrong in the end?

 

Goalposts will simply be moved.

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On 11/22/2021 at 5:06 PM, Stingray~ said:

The argument that the money in Auckland is ‘not enough for a successful defense’ could be a bogus one. Key word being ‘enough.’ 

+1.

On 11/22/2021 at 5:13 PM, chesirecat said:

Its a dangerous possibility since D & Co actually think they can run a successful defence so if they've persuaded a majority, also a distinct possibility he could leave. Interestingly GD has not threatened resigning, which would hand Dumpty the initiative. Dalton could then leave on the high ground free of any moral responsibly or loyalty. 

what did I miss. hasn't Dalton already freed himself from the the constraints of loyalty and moral responsibility?

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On 11/23/2021 at 10:13 AM, Stingray~ said:

Unusually pessimistic/biting by MW here

https://rule69.blog/2021/11/23/grinders-cup/

Precarious times. Fresh thinking and new blood required.

first poor review of the protocol I've noticed. I thought the Brits were giddy about this one.

5 hours ago, Zaal said:

Ah, the good old days, when GD was grateful for the support his country and fellow citizens gave him. 

For sure, the recent developments must make us think about what's happening. 

I'm a LR supporter, since I'm from Italy, but ETNZ has always been my second team. Whenever Luna Rossa was eliminated I cheered for them, and I hoped they would win - even if LR has been quite always stopped by them. They have always been a model for how to overcome budget difficulties thanks to ideas, which also means thanks to people. The Teamthink book about the 95 campaign was a great inspiration to me personally. The thing I've always admired the most about NZ has always been their connection to their country. GD also says the same in this interview: "we are almost a public company". ETNZ is a team, of course, but it is in fact the New Zealand national team. Sailors, designers, builders, suppliers, everything is made in NZ. And what a beautiful publicity ETNZ has always been for New Zealand, a testament to how much a small country can compete - often prevail - against much larger opponents. What Max Sirena is doing with LR is something in the same direction, and it's one of the things I like the most about how he's handling LR (the results too of course). But I'm digressing. What I really want to ask you (and ideally I turn to GD) is: are you really sure of what you're doing? Are you really sure that there was no other way, that the only solution is to really go to another country in order to get some funding that will still put you in a minority position compared to all the other teams? Couldn't it have been done differently ? Maybe in 2023, changing the class rule more, putting more one design elements (which you are doing anyway) in order to maintain your technological superiority? Are you really sure that the damage from moving away from New Zealand is worth the higher budget you will (perhaps) get by competing in another country? Frankly, I think all the other teams are celebrating right now. I remember (because I really followed it day by day) how expensive it was to move LR team to New Zealand. All the teams wasted a lot of time in the logistics of that operation, time that ETNZ in the meantime used to test, design and sail. Not to mention the suppliers, the builders, the support of the people in the streets, and the fact that you know perfectly the waters in which you race. Since 1851 the Defender has been sailing in its home waters (with a few exceptions). There must be a reason, right? And we're not done yet. Let's imagine the worst case scenario (for them): ETNZ loses the Cup. Are we really sure that after cutting the link with the homeland there can still be an ETNZ? What do sponsors look at, in the end, if not the interest generated by one of the assets in which they invest? What happens if ETNZ loses the Cup... and nobody cares in New Zealand? Will there really be a chance to do another challenge? For what, to win a Cup to be defended abroad again? I don't think it's a coincidence that Peter Burling and Blair Tuke haven't signed yet. Perhaps, in case of defeat, they will be the ones to pick up the baton, and to raise the challenge again. Certainly it is a difficult choice, I'm not saying it's easy for GD. Yet somehow I think it would have been possible to organize the defense in Aukland, even a defense that had a fair chance of winning.

That's it, I casually saw this old video. Sorry for the long post. It's just sad to see ETNZ behaving so differently than usual, just like a team, not the NZ national team. 

 

+1. However, the foreshadowing of doom has been lingering right in front of us for a while: E stands for Emirates. Nothing national team about that. And after all, Dalton has said "its just business" to abandon NZ.

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4 minutes ago, floater said:

first poor review of the protocol I've noticed. I thought the Brits were giddy about this one.

+1. However, the foreshadowing of doom has been lingering right in front of us for a while: E stands for Emirates. Nothing national team about that. And after all, Dalton has said "its just business" to abandon NZ.

The DoG does not require/ mandate Team NZ to defend in NZ

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4 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

WOW… 

America's Cup: Mark Dunphy serves legal letters on Grant Dalton and Team NZ

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/americas-cup/127092587/americas-cup-mark-dunphy-serves-legal-letters-on-grant-dalton-and-team-nz

Dunphy is toast.

Daltons gonna wipe the floor with Dunphy and he can crawl back to the cave he came out of.

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8 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

So with all of this funding and revenue, is there enough to cover what is needed for the Auckland defence? For sure. So maybe the issue is not what is needed but what is desired? 

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This is why the AC needs to leave NZ. Too many old, stuffy yacht club members that are too old and set in their ways.

The fact is the Deed has been satisfied, but the old boys club hasn't got their way so they're prepared to to tie it up in court on the off chance that they might succeed.

They want the Squadron to always hold it here, but they don't want the Squadron to have any responsibility for holding it.

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14 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

So with all of this funding and revenue, is there enough to cover what is needed for the Auckland defence? For sure. So maybe the issue is not what is needed but what is desired? 

Nope, the money isn't here.

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22 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Dunphy is toast.

Daltons gonna wipe the floor with Dunphy and he can crawl back to the cave he came out of.

The pressure is continually building for Mr. Dalton to respectfully resign.  Take the high road victory and step down.  You come out as the winner when TNZ loses in March of 2024.  

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1 minute ago, Chobani Sailor said:

The pressure is continually building for Mr. Dalton to respectfully resign.  Take the high road victory and step down.  You come out as the winner when TNZ loses in March of 2024.  

What pressure? The only pressure Dalton has is to satisfy the DoG and protocol.

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1 minute ago, Forourselves said:

This is why the AC needs to leave NZ. Too many old, stuffy yacht club members that are too old and set in their ways.

The fact is the Deed has been satisfied, but the old boys club hasn't got their way so they're prepared to to tie it up in court on the off chance that they might succeed.

They want the Squadron to always hold it here, but they don't want the Squadron to have any responsibility for holding it.

It's time for MBIE and or the IRD to open a new investigation into Mr. Dalton and his taxes.  Track down all of his offshore accounts; his under the table dealings.  He keeps this up too long and he is going to wish he just got out while he was ahead.

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1 minute ago, Chobani Sailor said:

It's time for MBIE and or the IRD to open a new investigation into Mr. Dalton and his taxes.  Track down all of his offshore accounts; his under the table dealings.  He keeps this up too long and he is going to wish he just got out while he was ahead.

And waste more taxpayers money on what has already found nothing.

Donald is that you? "I just want to find something wrong"

"there's nothing wrong with saying you've recalculated right"

lol

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7 minutes ago, Chobani Sailor said:

It's time for MBIE and or the IRD to open a new investigation into Mr. Dalton and his taxes.  Track down all of his offshore accounts; his under the table dealings.  He keeps this up too long and he is going to wish he just got out while he was ahead.

MBIE is a mess. They're a bunch of overpaid bureaucratic nuisances that don't know what they're doing. There is no leadership, no direction and no accountability.

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Just now, Forourselves said:

MBIE can get fucked. They're a bunch of overpaid bureaucratic nuisances that don't know what they're doing.

"MBIE can get....."  You just incriminated yourself. 

The fraud was there in AC36.  Miss appropriated funds, co-mingling of funds; The Hungarian bank noise....there was more to it. 

The fraud in the way of the AC40's and HSVs are sitting right there in AC37. 

The offshore bank accounts and unreported income will be found. 

Dalton and yourself should get out now before its to late unless you want to bring down all the NZ sailors as well.

The walls are starting to close in. 

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3 minutes ago, Chobani Sailor said:

"MBIE can get....."  You just incriminated yourself. 

The fraud was there in AC36.  Miss appropriated funds, co-mingling of funds; The Hungarian bank noise....there was more to it. 

The fraud in the way of the AC40's and HSVs are sitting right there in AC37. 

The offshore bank accounts and unreported income will be found. 

Dalton and yourself should get out now before its to late unless you want to bring down all the NZ sailors as well.

The walls are starting to close in. 

Lol stop the steal right? lol

Your Friends Bannon and Stone have been subpoenaed and the walls are closing in on you citizen Trump.

Perhaps you should walk down to Parliament and "Fight like hell"

Lol

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1 minute ago, Forourselves said:

Lol stop the steal right? lol

Your Friends Bannon and Stone have been subpoenaed and the walls are closing in on you citizen Trump.

Dalton is following the Trump way of doing business.  Will greed give him the same demise as Trump?

It ultimately will catch up to him when he and you just want to live out your golden years. 

You've skimmed enough off the top over the past 20 years.  Another million or two isn't worth losing all of it and being someone's little b in prision.

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