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What is the ‘JK’ move references many times?


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8 minutes ago, DamnSkippy said:

Watching the races there was a reference to a ‘JK’ move at the bottom mark. What does that mean? 

Specifically, a bear away - tack at a downwind mark.   Nothing else. 

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6 minutes ago, mauriciogfj said:

A 180  degree rounding of the bottom mark.
Named after John Kostecki, Oracle tactician at San Francisco

 

Not accurate. A gybe - bear away doesn't count. It must be a bear away - tack to be a JK.

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It's a snarky reference among these guys, who have been sailing and badgering each other for decades.  JK screwed the pooch with his call for that move in SF.  And Read, Hutchinson and others aren't letting him forget it.

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5 hours ago, Blitzkrieg9 said:

Not accurate. A gybe - bear away doesn't count. It must be a bear away - tack to be a JK.

 

2 hours ago, Left Shift said:

It's a snarky reference among these guys, who have been sailing and badgering each other for decades.  JK screwed the pooch with his call for that move in SF.  And Read, Hutchinson and others aren't letting him forget it.

Ironic then that ETNZ used it,  with impressive results.....

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9 hours ago, Blitzkrieg9 said:

Specifically, a bear away - tack at a downwind mark.   Nothing else. 

It's not a bear away tack, it's a head up and tack. If you're bearing away at leeward marks, you've got issues! 

I guess the next step is a gybe tack combo. Not seen that at either mark. Although I think LR and INEOS both got close, but it was more like a late tack to a short lay than one fluid manoeuvre. 
 

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3 hours ago, Mozzy Sails said:

It's not a bear away tack, it's a head up and tack. If you're bearing away at leeward marks, you've got issues! 

I guess the next step is a gybe tack combo. Not seen that at either mark. Although I think LR and INEOS both got close, but it was more like a late tack to a short lay than one fluid manoeuvre. 
 

Thanks for the correction.  The gybe- head up- tack would be a crazy 270° maneuver...  I suppose it could work if you used it hold off the other boat at a rounding, but preferred the side of the course you were initially going towards.   We've seen ETNZ doing 270° turns in practice so its certainly possible.  Just never saw it in a race 

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11 hours ago, Left Shift said:

It's a snarky reference among these guys, who have been sailing and badgering each other for decades.  JK screwed the pooch with his call for that move in SF.  And Read, Hutchinson and others aren't letting him forget it.

I think the teams actually were the more heavy users of it, then the commentary team adopted it after having to explain it multiple times when it was heard on onboard comms.

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Different generations come up with different names for the same maneuver. We were doing "Float Drop" takedowns with symmetric kites long before the same dowse with an asym became a "Mexican".  How tacking around the leeward mark becomes a trick maneuver worthy of a special name escapes me. It's not even complicated by the remains of a late kite drop and worrying if the gear is clear to tack. I've done dozens of those and only some were feats of daring.

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21 minutes ago, DamnSkippy said:

I asked Kostecki once if he was dissapointed about being replaced and his answer was " heck no, we needed to win so I could get my bonus money! "

Great answer!!

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4 hours ago, strider470 said:

the one legged JK should be named after PB or TR. (Even if LR did it too the following race, but there is no second)

Could call it the "middle finger"? LOL!

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So - what's the benefit? Lets way I'm coming into the gate on port gybe, and want to go left, upwind. 

Wouldn't a gybe then round the right gate mark (looking downwind)  and go upwind lose a bit less than a round of the left mark then tack?  Assumes I lose more in a tack than a gybe, and that I have time to set up appropriately. 

 

I suppose if I want to be a bit to the middle of the course of a guy going to the right gate, ok.

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10 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

So - what's the benefit? Lets way I'm coming into the gate on port gybe, and want to go left, upwind. 

Wouldn't a gybe then round the right gate mark (looking downwind)  and go upwind lose a bit less than a round of the left mark then tack?  Assumes I lose more in a tack than a gybe, and that I have time to set up appropriately. 

 

I suppose if I want to be a bit to the middle of the course of a guy going to the right gate, ok.

As far as I can see the key benefit is that it doesn't give the leading boat time to react and cover.

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1 hour ago, Raz'r said:

So - what's the benefit? Lets way I'm coming into the gate on port gybe, and want to go left, upwind. 

Wouldn't a gybe then round the right gate mark (looking downwind)  and go upwind lose a bit less than a round of the left mark then tack?  Assumes I lose more in a tack than a gybe, and that I have time to set up appropriately. 

 

I suppose if I want to be a bit to the middle of the course of a guy going to the right gate, ok.

Gate bias often. 

The more bias on the gate, the more advantageous a JK is as the course will be skewed and it will also get you on to the lifted / long tack from the favoured gate. 

Secondly, normally the lead boat gets to choose the favoured gate, so then the following will have to go to the less favoured gate and perform a gybe. A JK gets them a split, and ties the tack in to the round up which seems a less costly combo. 

If you are the lead boat, and you force the other to split to the other gate, then a JK can limit the split, as normally they will have done a last minute gybe in to the other gate to get the split, sp they'll be unable to double that up and match your JK to maintain the split.

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1 hour ago, Mozzy Sails said:

Gate bias often. 

The more bias on the gate, the more advantageous a JK is as the course will be skewed and it will also get you on to the lifted / long tack from the favoured gate. 

Secondly, normally the lead boat gets to choose the favoured gate, so then the following will have to go to the less favoured gate and perform a gybe. A JK gets them a split, and ties the tack in to the round up which seems a less costly combo. 

If you are the lead boat, and you force the other to split to the other gate, then a JK can limit the split, as normally they will have done a last minute gybe in to the other gate to get the split, sp they'll be unable to double that up and match your JK to maintain the split.

Thanks.  Much to ponder. But I don't really match race, so...

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8 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Glad that you took my photo in SF :)

However they had just started and reached the first mark at full speed.  These 72s were impressive.

They were indeed, but the new boats (although I still think they look like waterbugs) are such a massive move forward.

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27 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

They were indeed, but the new boats (although I still think they look like waterbugs) are such a massive move forward.

Not as they are now IMO, they have to modify it seriously, if their massive hull hit the waves they will have huge shocks, they raced in more gentle conditions than the small AC50s. If you look at big multis they have very fin entries and hulls. If they race around isle of Wight they will have to chose a very nice day or modify the hull.

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9 hours ago, Raz'r said:

Thanks.  Much to ponder. But I don't really match race, so...

I think if you're a foiling moth fleet sailor it's relevant a leeward gates. 

For regular boats the J-K is probably the equivalent of a gybe drop at a leeward gate which is more generally considered the harder manoeuvre.

However, unlike the a gybe drop, not only is the J-K harder manoeuvre but it's also the better tool for getting round the favoured gate on the favoured tack. 

The other thing, is in regular championship racing the gate isn't often square to the course and mean wind direction. So you do often get the favoured gate miss-matching with the favoured tack and that's when a gybe drop is your friend (or if racing on a course with a single leeward mark). 

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Thanks for the information.  A bear away tack, is often done at our club by the small dinghies as the bottom mark is in the strongest wind , bearing away puts you into some wind shadow from the other bank of the river..

 

A Gybe tack is more often done by the bigger boats, the normal direction of the wind means you are running down the port bank, to avoid a strong incoming tide , you pull out into the middle of the river at your chosen point, to gybe round the bouy. But if there are boats in front of you or moored on the bank (about 60ft or  3 boat lengths from the bouy) You carry on round straight into a tack.

 Of course if the big boys are out in their 30-45 footers every gybe round the buoy is effectively a Gybe tack..

 

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On 3/18/2021 at 4:38 PM, See Level said:

That's new, why wouldn't it be a JT then. 

 

because the acronym JT is already taken for jib top.

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On 3/18/2021 at 1:44 PM, Raz'r said:

So - what's the benefit? Lets way I'm coming into the gate on port gybe, and want to go left, upwind. 

Wouldn't a gybe then round the right gate mark (looking downwind)  and go upwind lose a bit less than a round of the left mark then tack?  Assumes I lose more in a tack than a gybe, and that I have time to set up appropriately. 

 

I suppose if I want to be a bit to the middle of the course of a guy going to the right gate, ok.

The only benefit was for Ben, it got him on the boat and his only AC win.

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