Jump to content

Recommended Posts

I would like to read the anthropological study of Kiwis that explains why they are so dominant in the America’s Cup. They’ve won 4 of the last 8 ACs and were 3 for 3 in challenger cups during that same span. And yet, there are more than 100 countries with larger populations, and more than 50 with a larger GDP. Hard to come up with another sporting event where so much success in such a technically complex field has been achieved with so little.

It’s not convincing to say that everyone in NZ sails, so no wonder their success. Lots of people sail elsewhere in far greater numbers and in well-heeled sailing meccas. ETNZ designs are typically a cut above the field, but one would imagine that competitors from countries with universities the likes of MIT, Cambridge, and Politecnico di Milano, the design field would be relatively even. Generational talents like Coutts and Burling help but are insufficient on their own. Money is no advantage for NZ either.

Although I love the country and have been a fan of ETNZ for a long time, part of me was hoping for an LRPP win because it’s easy to cheer for the underdog and it’s good to see the Cup change hands. At the same time, ETNZ have always been the underdog. Paradoxically, they are frequently the favourite. It’s impressive and perplexing all the same.  

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I was casting about for answers to a tangent question myself. When we look at the Kiwi boats we see innovative and effective solutions to some of the challenges encountered. The best I could come up with was the reality of being an island nation far from some of the resources the rest of the world takes for granted has better promoted innovative solutions. Most of these solutions don't seem to be the product of engineering breakthroughs, or rather breakthroughs at engineering firms, but rather common sense answers to complex issues deemed unsolvable by others. 

Inspirational for sure. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

NZ has the 9th longest coastline of any country. So plenty of access for sailing.

(Canada has by far the longest coastline, nearly two thirds of the world's total, but a lot of it is ice!)

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Switzerand has better statistics so far :D

Ah, but they were from NZ as well. Let's not forget that.

So if you add Alinghi to ETNZ, the Kiwi dominance in sailing is even more impressive!

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Keith said:

That's like asking, Why are Canadians are so dominant at ice hockey.....  ;)

I think there's a pretty big difference between the two: while the game of hockey has evolved very little, ETNZ has had major success in 3 very different types of boat.

Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, marlowe said:

sorry but in real world NZ that no8 wire is actually a smokescreen to keep the office boys in their cubicles, the real trick shit has always been done by 10 gauge malleable wire and 16 gauge tiewire, as for genetic success....... put it down to diet , eta crunchy peanut butter, vegemite, weetbix and that abominable milk they made us drink in school...... oh and having no such word as ... " assum bumcha"  !!!!

Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, 167149 said:

..... put it down to diet , eta crunchy peanut butter, vegemite, weetbix and that abominable milk they made us drink in school......

When I was at school in Auckland the tuck shop sold only pies and donuts. :)

pie_and_donut.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, Will_Co said:

I think there's a pretty big difference between the two: while the game of hockey has evolved very little, ETNZ has had major success in 3 very different types of boat.

sure....

Hockey Team, 1881

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think kiwis are very much inclined to be free thinkers (in my engineering/NA world). This helps with very new designs where the design space is large and you don't know what is going to work.

As well Team NZ has been held together with a varying cast of members but with a common ethos that carries over from campaign to campaign; this really helps with a cup cycle because you're already part staffed up.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Keith said:

sure....

Hockey Team, 1881

Yes, there have been changes in both sports. Hockey sticks, like masts, once made of wood are now carbon fibre. Players used to smoke between periods; now they eat plant-based diets to maximize performance. Sailors today are elite athletes compared to their predecessors. 


However, I don’t see any evolution in hockey that is comparable to the platform changes from IACC to foiling cats to foiling monohulls, and certainly not in a 25-year span.  
 

Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Will_Co said:

Yes, there have been changes in both sports. Hockey sticks, like masts, once made of wood are now carbon fibre. Players used to smoke between periods; now they eat plant-based diets to maximize performance. Sailors today are elite athletes compared to their predecessors. 


However, I don’t see any evolution in hockey that is comparable to the platform changes from IACC to foiling cats to foiling monohulls, and certainly not in a 25-year span.  
 

NZ.....should make a strict nationality rule.....no one would ever beat them

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, AVALANINIA said:

NZ.....should make a strict nationality rule.....no one would ever beat them

With Bernasconi back to England and Glenn to Australia?

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it's legend and history that do it you are surrounded by it in Auckland you see the sea some part of each day. When your young "I could go out and sail away do anything take on the world" Peter Blake made a boat out of corrigated iron and started sailing as a child off Bayswater with this attitude. You go for a walk and the water features at some point you go to a bar downtown water old boats etc KZ-1 is always looming over you showing kiwis taking on the big Americans. Most have a relitive that had some sort of a hand in sailing then push it onto there boy/girl That sort of thing I think. 

 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Will_Co said:

I would like to read the anthropological study of Kiwis that explains why they are so dominant in the America’s Cup. They’ve won 4 of the last 8 ACs and were 3 for 3 in challenger cups during that same span. And yet, there are more than 100 countries with larger populations, and more than 50 with a larger GDP. Hard to come up with another sporting event where so much success in such a technically complex field has been achieved with so little.

It’s not convincing to say that everyone in NZ sails, so no wonder their success. Lots of people sail elsewhere in far greater numbers and in well-heeled sailing meccas. ETNZ designs are typically a cut above the field, but one would imagine that competitors from countries with universities the likes of MIT, Cambridge, and Politecnico di Milano, the design field would be relatively even. Generational talents like Coutts and Burling help but are insufficient on their own. Money is no advantage for NZ either.

Although I love the country and have been a fan of ETNZ for a long time, part of me was hoping for an LRPP win because it’s easy to cheer for the underdog and it’s good to see the Cup change hands. At the same time, ETNZ have always been the underdog. Paradoxically, they are frequently the favourite. It’s impressive and perplexing all the same.  

It's the team culture pure and simple. Does that stem from kiwi culture? Only partially. Most of it stems from the team itself and will be a culmination of it's experiences over the years.

Look at what Kenny said during the Bermuda match "for as long as I've known them, the kiwi team don't mind doing things differently if they think it will be faster".

Being able to do that also stems from a culture where good ideas thrive and bad ideas die regardless of the "importance" of the person having them.

If you look at the NZ team prior to 1995, it was not like that at all.

Bruce fucking Farr would design a boat, it would be built and the sailors would see it for the first time when it arrived dock side.

Hardly a recipe for innovation. 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, strider470 said:

With Bernasconi back to England and Glenn to Australia?

They will undoubtedly be NZ residents now, but yeah I think residency rules are a little bit pointless these days.

Just introduce a rule saying Bertarelli can't challenge and I'm happy. Cunt.

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Will_Co said:

Yes, there have been changes in both sports. Hockey sticks, like masts, once made of wood are now carbon fibre. Players used to smoke between periods; now they eat plant-based diets to maximize performance. Sailors today are elite athletes compared to their predecessors. 


However, I don’t see any evolution in hockey that is comparable to the platform changes from IACC to foiling cats to foiling monohulls, and certainly not in a 25-year span.  
 

Helmets?

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Bruce fucking Farr would design a boat, it would be built and the sailors would see it for the first time when it arrived dock side.

That is not entirely correct.  Most of the famous campaigns had a large proportion of the eventual crew building and fitting out the boat, befor sailing it.  As a teenager I visited Lion NZ under construction (1984) and it was full of sailors helping out, including Peter Blake.  Many of the various one-tonner campaigns were the same.  Often there were boatbuilders amongst the crew.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Boatworks said:

That is not entirely correct.  Most of the famous campaigns had a large proportion of the eventual crew building and fitting out the boat, befor sailing it.  As a teenager I visited Lion NZ under construction (1984) and it was full of sailors helping out, including Peter Blake.  Many of the various one-tonner campaigns were the same.  Often there were boatbuilders amongst the crew.

I am talking about the AC.

In 1992 the VERY FIRST time the crew saw the design of the red sled is when it turned up dockside.

What's more, it was so structurally compromised that they had to reinforce the shit out if before sailing it.

It's a miracle that boat performed as well as it did.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Just a cotton picking minute without the free thinking and get it done attitude of Bruce Farr, Ron Holland and Laurie Davidson we would not have the basis of a renowned and successful marine industry that we have today.

I think every designer has had their fuckups but to be fair building competitive boats back then they did not have computers or any advanced forms of analysis.

If it didn’t break it was too heavy and if it did break it was a shade light.....

Getting back to the point Kiwis have always been practical and intuitive often asking the question “why does it have to be done that way? “ This often leads down some interesting paths.

That said we are usually limited by money and so we look for simple practical solutions that will get the job done without spending shit tons of money.

Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a good question and difficult to answer as one always looks through the lens of perception of ones own cultural position.  

I think there are a number of ingredients - I'll try not to be a one eyed kiwi.  

1.  When the team formed under Blake - it had an identity.  That identity of no egos, where everyone's ideas were valid, and there were no sacred cows, and a single focus on making the boat go faster, has never left the team.  

2. Our isolation has been a benefit.  There is a genuine belief inherent in many (not all) New Zealander's that they can solve problems and knuckle down.  Generalism is often a curse and often blocks exceptionalism - but in this case isolation has led to generalism which is part of our identity and led to a  "can do" attitude.  Others have copied this - it means the sailors design the boats and know how to talk to the designers.

3.  The legacy of round the world racing.  I think those who sailed those boats - and yes Dalton and Blake raced into Auckland at the same time, had a singular belief in working as a team, and were once in a multi-generation of around the world sailors.  I honestly think that these two men - and Dalton is a unique, not a loveable man, but a unique leader, have been the biggest drivers to success.

4. Somehow the cup appealed to the psyche of New Zealanders.  It's odd this one - such a rich mans game, but it got under the skin of ordinary New Zealanders.  This led to corporates and small businesses bringing their own expertise, but it also meant the best of New Zealand talent were attracted to the cup.

5. The team's ability to change and adapt while maintaining its identity. Handing over to Barker, learning to Foil on the Waikato lakes,  bringing in Burling and Tuke, these are big brave moves.

While we have great sailors - so do other countries - notably the UK across the classes.  So it's not just the sailors, we have a marine industry - but it's not comparable to the tech that is in the UK or US. We don't have great corporations - our general productivity and effectiveness in corporate life is poor - this is not where we've inherited this from. 

  • Like 8
Link to post
Share on other sites

And if the continuous change of class in the last 20 years was actually a big help for the NZ "thinking out of the box" attitude?
Except for the two IACC years (mostly thanks to Coutts, like the Alinghi experience confirmed) having to start from scratch each time is an actual advantage for a flexible attitude. 
I'm prone to believe that the 2nd or 3rd AC with the same class will drastically reduce this kind of advantage. And the bigger countries, with a bigger choice of technological options to choose from, and more choice in human resources will slowly be in a better position.
Of course the "team reasoning" from the kiwis is in its own league (even if LR this cycle...) and the worst NZ sailor is likely to be considered a good one in any other country (and I'm from Italy: we have quite a marine history).
Still Te Rehutai was a floating projection of Peter Burling: not sure it would have been the same with a different talent.
If they keep the class we'll see in the next cycle.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Will_Co said:

Interesting read. Thanks for that.  

Australia punches above its weight in many areas because it is a young country with a prematurely mature economy with an educated population built on a can-do culture with a big inferiority complex about the rest of the world.

New Zealand punches way above its weight in many areas because it is a young country with a prematurely mature economy with an educated population built on a can-do culture with a big inferiority complex about the rest of the world and Australia.

  • Like 12
Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, aucklander said:

This is a good question and difficult to answer as one always looks through the lens of perception of ones own cultural position.  

I think there are a number of ingredients - I'll try not to be a one eyed kiwi.  

1.  When the team formed under Blake - it had an identity.  That identity of no egos, where everyone's ideas were valid, and there were no sacred cows, and a single focus on making the boat go faster, has never left the team.  

2. Our isolation has been a benefit.  There is a genuine belief inherent in many (not all) New Zealander's that they can solve problems and knuckle down.  Generalism is often a curse and often blocks exceptionalism - but in this case isolation has led to generalism which is part of our identity and led to a  "can do" attitude.  Others have copied this - it means the sailors design the boats and know how to talk to the designers.

3.  The legacy of round the world racing.  I think those who sailed those boats - and yes Dalton and Blake raced into Auckland at the same time, had a singular belief in working as a team, and were once in a multi-generation of around the world sailors.  I honestly think that these two men - and Dalton is a unique, not a loveable man, but a unique leader, have been the biggest drivers to success.

4. Somehow the cup appealed to the psyche of New Zealanders.  It's odd this one - such a rich mans game, but it got under the skin of ordinary New Zealanders.  This led to corporates and small businesses bringing their own expertise, but it also meant the best of New Zealand talent were attracted to the cup.

5. The team's ability to change and adapt while maintaining its identity. Handing over to Barker, learning to Foil on the Waikato lakes,  bringing in Burling and Tuke, these are big brave moves.

While we have great sailors - so do other countries - notably the UK across the classes.  So it's not just the sailors, we have a marine industry - but it's not comparable to the tech that is in the UK or US. We don't have great corporations - our general productivity and effectiveness in corporate life is poor - this is not where we've inherited this from. 

That's a great, insightful answer. Thanks. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Will_Co said:

I would like to read the anthropological study of Kiwis that explains why they are so dominant in the America’s Cup. They’ve won 4 of the last 8 ACs and were 3 for 3 in challenger cups during that same span. And yet, there are more than 100 countries with larger populations, and more than 50 with a larger GDP. Hard to come up with another sporting event where so much success in such a technically complex field has been achieved with so little.

It’s not convincing to say that everyone in NZ sails, so no wonder their success. Lots of people sail elsewhere in far greater numbers and in well-heeled sailing meccas. ETNZ designs are typically a cut above the field, but one would imagine that competitors from countries with universities the likes of MIT, Cambridge, and Politecnico di Milano, the design field would be relatively even. Generational talents like Coutts and Burling help but are insufficient on their own. Money is no advantage for NZ either.

Although I love the country and have been a fan of ETNZ for a long time, part of me was hoping for an LRPP win because it’s easy to cheer for the underdog and it’s good to see the Cup change hands. At the same time, ETNZ have always been the underdog. Paradoxically, they are frequently the favourite. It’s impressive and perplexing all the same.  

British designer?

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, strider470 said:

With Bernasconi back to England and Glenn to Australia?

Back in teh day all it took was a passport to be classed a "National" - and I'm sure these two would qualify for a Kiwi passport

Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, aucklander said:

This is a good question and difficult to answer as one always looks through the lens of perception of ones own cultural position.  

I think there are a number of ingredients - I'll try not to be a one eyed kiwi.  

1.  When the team formed under Blake - it had an identity.  That identity of no egos, where everyone's ideas were valid, and there were no sacred cows, and a single focus on making the boat go faster, has never left the team.  

2. Our isolation has been a benefit.  There is a genuine belief inherent in many (not all) New Zealander's that they can solve problems and knuckle down.  Generalism is often a curse and often blocks exceptionalism - but in this case isolation has led to generalism which is part of our identity and led to a  "can do" attitude.  Others have copied this - it means the sailors design the boats and know how to talk to the designers.

3.  The legacy of round the world racing.  I think those who sailed those boats - and yes Dalton and Blake raced into Auckland at the same time, had a singular belief in working as a team, and were once in a multi-generation of around the world sailors.  I honestly think that these two men - and Dalton is a unique, not a loveable man, but a unique leader, have been the biggest drivers to success.

4. Somehow the cup appealed to the psyche of New Zealanders.  It's odd this one - such a rich mans game, but it got under the skin of ordinary New Zealanders.  This led to corporates and small businesses bringing their own expertise, but it also meant the best of New Zealand talent were attracted to the cup.

5. The team's ability to change and adapt while maintaining its identity. Handing over to Barker, learning to Foil on the Waikato lakes,  bringing in Burling and Tuke, these are big brave moves.

While we have great sailors - so do other countries - notably the UK across the classes.  So it's not just the sailors, we have a marine industry - but it's not comparable to the tech that is in the UK or US. We don't have great corporations - our general productivity and effectiveness in corporate life is poor - this is not where we've inherited this from. 

Great points well put.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think also the Team has learnt a lot from previous campaigns - Innovation has always been part of it (Plastic boats in 1987, 2 keels in 1992, foiling in 2013, Kinky foils and bikes in 2017), Sailor input into design (1995, and reinforced in 2003 when the designers got carried away).  The need to continue to innovate right til the end (2013 showed this), the Team being the focus rather than individuals. All of these learnings were evident this time.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, jaysper said:

Being able to do that also stems from a culture where good ideas thrive and bad ideas die regardless of the "importance" of the person having them.

That's it, that is why.

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Keith said:

That's like asking, Why are Canadians are so dominant at ice hockey.....  ;)

The North Division is the best ;)

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Thewas said:

And if the continuous change of class in the last 20 years was actually a big help for the NZ "thinking out of the box" attitude?
Except for the two IACC years (mostly thanks to Coutts, like the Alinghi experience confirmed) having to start from scratch each time is an actual advantage for a flexible attitude. 
I'm prone to believe that the 2nd or 3rd AC with the same class will drastically reduce this kind of advantage. And the bigger countries, with a bigger choice of technological options to choose from, and more choice in human resources will slowly be in a better position.
Of course the "team reasoning" from the kiwis is in its own league (even if LR this cycle...) and the worst NZ sailor is likely to be considered a good one in any other country (and I'm from Italy: we have quite a marine history).
Still Te Rehutai was a floating projection of Peter Burling: not sure it would have been the same with a different talent.
If they keep the class we'll see in the next cycle.

I completely agree with this, as gains become more marginal, New Zealand will not be able to compete.  Where the team ethos has served them so well is in their ability to explore corners of the box. Once all those dark corners have been explored - bigger and richer organisations will ultimately win.

Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Thewas said:

And if the continuous change of class in the last 20 years was actually a big help for the NZ "thinking out of the box" attitude?
Except for the two IACC years (mostly thanks to Coutts, like the Alinghi experience confirmed) having to start from scratch each time is an actual advantage for a flexible attitude. 
I'm prone to believe that the 2nd or 3rd AC with the same class will drastically reduce this kind of advantage. And the bigger countries, with a bigger choice of technological options to choose from, and more choice in human resources will slowly be in a better position.
Of course the "team reasoning" from the kiwis is in its own league (even if LR this cycle...) and the worst NZ sailor is likely to be considered a good one in any other country (and I'm from Italy: we have quite a marine history).
Still Te Rehutai was a floating projection of Peter Burling: not sure it would have been the same with a different talent.
If they keep the class we'll see in the next cycle.

Good assessment.  At one level it was frustrating to see the teams making big performance gains during both the challenger series and the cup - that says they had inadequate time and scope to refine their design concepts and how they sailed them.  Partly COVID, but also partly the rules - time window restrictions, no two boat testing, for example.  These restrictions proved pretty pointless if they were designed to promote more entries.

AM started way early, assembled all the right campaign components and solid funding and followed a typical long, incremental, structured corporate-style process which got them to 99.X% but maybe not that last inch.  AM's crash was an execution fail and this isn't unusual in corporate-style teams where human elements often get treated as just another component in the machine and flashes of creativity often get extinguished.  INEOS was similar, but underachieved and only got to say 98.X% through their long process.  Big props to them for the stellar effort to step up in the last gasp.  Given how fast that happened surely the "process" they followed over that last period must have been a pretty sparky one.

Look at Oracle's record in most of the AC iterations they didn't win.  Where they won big it was generally by innovating outside the regular process, DoG's ballsy call to go big on a wing and SF's comeback - sure Spithill takes a lotta credit for that one but perfecting upwind foiling and Bieker's foil interventions during the cup match itself both made a big difference.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

It’s our belief in ourselves. The underdog mentality. The belief that we are a tiny group of islands at the bottom of the planet that is often left off world maps, but we can’t and won’t let that stop us from competing against, and beating the best that the world has to offer. Beating the best by simply being better. 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, aucklander said:

I completely agree with this, as gains become more marginal, New Zealand will not be able to compete.  Where the team ethos has served them so well is in their ability to explore corners of the box. Once all those dark corners have been explored - bigger and richer organisations will ultimately win.

But then you tweak the class, right?

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Do not forget NZ conceived the Rule.  When presented, there were many trying to figure out if theses things were going to even work. I for one was skeptical they would be stable enough to foil for extended amounts of time or maneuvers.

The comment that after 2 to 3 cycles, the head start would evaporate I think are correct.

The compressed version of that was the DoG match, Ernesto's alinghi came up with some clever ideas that found loopholes in the rules, His opponent had essentially unlimited resources and a talented team that could pull off rebuilding the central hull, longer amas, matching ICE power and the Wing. All in one "cycle"

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, mauriciogfj said:

But then you tweak the class, right?

You say that like it’s a bad thing, the Italians had ample opportunity to tweak their boat too, they missed by just a little bit.

We as kiwi sailors are constantly tweaking our boats for speed or a simpler more efficient way of doing things and we have roundly rejected stupid rules like IOR which found a complex way to make a potentially fast boat go slow.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

It’s our belief in ourselves. The underdog mentality. The belief that we are a tiny group of islands at the bottom of the planet that is often left off world maps, but we can’t and won’t let that stop us from competing against, and beating the best that the world has to offer. Beating the best by simply being better. 

This may be a factor but i think it's small.  It may be one part of it - but if it were this romantic notion, we'd excel everywhere - and we don't .  Specifically a measure that is easily comparable to others is our corporate performance and productivity, our obesity measures  - these are sub-par at best.   Belief only gets one so far - one has to execute, which means a structured way of behaving, a way of renewing.  This is where multiple ingredients, built up over time, have led to ETNZ being so successful.

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Navig8tor said:

You say that like it’s a bad thing, the Italians had ample opportunity to tweak their boat too, they missed by just a little bit.

We as kiwi sailors are constantly tweaking our boats for speed or a simpler more efficient way of doing things and we have roundly rejected stupid rules like IOR which found a complex way to make a potentially fast boat go slow.

Not at all, I meant it as a compliment. As long as you win the cup, you should push the envelope further and further. Given that you have limited resources but a good process anchored by superb team (brains and muscles) that seems not only wise but necessary.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, AVALANINIA said:

NZ.....should make a strict nationality rule.....no one would ever beat them

AC37 is likely to have exactly that

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, aucklander said:

I completely agree with this, as gains become more marginal, New Zealand will not be able to compete.  Where the team ethos has served them so well is in their ability to explore corners of the box. Once all those dark corners have been explored - bigger and richer organisations will ultimately win.

enforcing a tighter nationality rule would counter that risk. Even if it meant less challangers at each AC cycle. Im hoping to see Jimmy as skipper of an Australian challenge next time.

Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, aucklander said:

This may be a factor but i think it's small.  It may be one part of it - but if it were this romantic notion, we'd excel everywhere - and we don't .  Specifically a measure that is easily comparable to others is our corporate performance and productivity, our obesity measures  - these are sub-par at best.   Belief only gets one so far - one has to execute, which means a structured way of behaving, a way of renewing.  This is where multiple ingredients, built up over time, have led to ETNZ being so successful.

And key to this ability to execute has been great leadership, which is evident throughout the organisation. If this were an entity listing on the stock exchange, it would be awash with capital. The inconvenient truth is that the AC campaign is not a commercially viable prospect and that's unfortunate as it relates to the financial independence of ETNZ.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, marlowe said:

NZ has the 9th longest coastline of any country. So plenty of access for sailing.

(Canada has by far the longest coastline, nearly two thirds of the world's total, but a lot of it is ice!)

explaining the popularity of beach hockey

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

It’s our belief in ourselves. The underdog mentality. The belief that we are a tiny group of islands at the bottom of the planet that is often left off world maps, but we can’t and won’t let that stop us from competing against, and beating the best that the world has to offer. Beating the best by simply being better. 

In sports that nobody else competes in.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Credit to the team. They have something and that something helps them win. However, it is not just an NZ thing. Look at how over the years key people in the team haven't been New Zealanders. 

I see a number of contributing factors. The biggest is that they are a team that has effectively been a team for far longer than any other currently competing, although you could argue that another long lived team, Oracle, was just as successful, maybe proving that longevity is important. Teams that have been together for a long time can develop cultures that include openness and trust. It takes time to develop that. They also have a way of integrate new people into the team - Pete and Blair fitted in well with the support of people like Glenn, who, let's not forget, ran the sailing side. 

I think the reduced budgets that ETNZ had also help, because the sailors needed to have a dual role. With the AC50 a lot is made of the ride height control, but they also had the best wing control and set the rig differently to other teams. That came directly from Glenn. Pete had his input as well as an engineer. You don't see that with other teams where instead of the sailors being directly involved in the design process, there is usually somebody responsible for sailor to designer liaison. 

Much is made of the team being an NZ team, but I think they are actually very good at knowing when they need outsiders in either the design or sailing side (or a mix of both). It is a myth that ETNZ is only full of NZers. I don't believe they will ever bring in a 100% nationality rule or one that says the designers have to be NZers. I don't have an issue with this, but some (mainly NZers) think strict nationality rules are important. It would seriously bite them.

All those things add up, but you could get to the same place with a non NZ team. So why have so few done this in recent times (only, arguably, Oracle). Money. Almost every other team has been at the whim of a VRO and they don't tend to hang around for long enough. The one thing Dalton has managed to achieve is continuity through maintaining enough funding while persuading the team members not to become mercenary and chase bigger bucks.

Now the real trick will be to defend the Cup a second time. That will be super tough, particularly if they stick with this class of boat, because others will know most of the NZ secrets which means teams start from a similar place of knowledge. They will also lose some key personnel and need to integrate new people into those key positions. And some of the teams will have another campaign under their belts and will have learnt a lot and be able to close the gap in the way the team works (some probably won't learn anything, but that is another story!). The next edition will be interesting. 

 

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, DickDastardly said:

Australia punches above its weight in many areas because it is a young country with a prematurely mature economy with an educated population built on a can-do culture with a big inferiority complex about the rest of the world.

New Zealand punches way above its weight in many areas because it is a young country with a prematurely mature economy with an educated population built on a can-do culture with a big inferiority complex about the rest of the world and Australia.

thats pretty close but you missed the obvious, NZ is a country full of optomists who love nothing better than to live the 50cent millionaires lifestyle and will go to great lengths to achieve this

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, aucklander said:

I completely agree with this, as gains become more marginal, New Zealand will not be able to compete.  Where the team ethos has served them so well is in their ability to explore corners of the box. Once all those dark corners have been explored - bigger and richer organisations will ultimately win.

Insightful view IMHO.  I agree in no small part based on more recent evidence.  The TNZ culture seems to do well when the rules are new and the design space allows a lot of innovation and good gains.  But, look back to 2007 and TNZ came within a second in the last race of winning the Cup after the killer type-form had been in place in that class for maybe 15 years and around 100 IACC boats built - totally diminishing returns territory.  And, in that and the 2003 iterations Oracle tanked, despite outspending the rest by multiples.  

Link to post
Share on other sites

Like Rugby its not a high end sport or elitist. Anyone can join a yacht club and get out in boats. So we arent taking the talent from a bunch of rich kids but from everyone and often the talent doesnt come from the priviliged class. (Also part of the All blacks success) 

UK for instance Rugby and Sailing is a private school elite thing to their own detriment

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the most important factor is no surprise: the ability to find, recruit and nurture talent. Support from a long term sponsor has helped with stability in the team.

There are plenty of equivalent brains and talent elsewhere in the world, e.g. Nathan Outeridge is arguably the equal of Burling in talent and performance, but not results because he can't find an equivalent team. And the Kiwis poached Ashby who I would venture is of more importance to ETNZ than Burling. He was instrumental to ETNZ's performance in the last 3 NZ cups, not just as a sailor, but to the fundamentals of the team's boat design and implementation. I think his record puts him head and shoulders above everyone, he has no rival.

So you could also put it down somewhat to luck, a happy coincidence that excellent talent has appeared at the same time as (apparently) excellent team management, a combination that other teams haven't managed to equalise.

In the AC there is only one winner and we tend to focus on them. I think LR also did an amazing job and their performance on the water was outstanding. Given another iteration of the AC75 class, they may be able to go one better.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, pusslicker said:

In sports that nobody else competes in.

Haters gonna hate. Who gives a fuck how many people compete in those sports. The AC has one of the smallest talent pools of any sport/ event, hence the reason many compete for a lot of different teams year after year. As long as you’re the best at what you compete in, that’s all that matters. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, jaysper said:

I am talking about the AC.

In 1992 the VERY FIRST time the crew saw the design of the red sled is when it turned up dockside.

What's more, it was so structurally compromised that they had to reinforce the shit out if before sailing it.

It's a miracle that boat performed as well as it did.

Please get a clue and stop being so blind to the ways of the world...  NZ is not the first/only teams that ever got the sailor input into designing he boats.  Hell, even America was designed based upon the successful boats being used along the Atlantic coast.  Just look at this old article describe the software used to model and design the US AC boats back in 1995.

https://www.designnews.com/automation-motion-control/technology-tacks-toward-cup

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

Please get a clue and stop being so blind to the ways of the world...  NZ is not the first/only teams that ever got the sailor input into designing he boats.  Hell, even America was designed based upon the successful boats being used along the Atlantic coast.  Just look at this old article describe the software used to model and design the US AC boats bake in 1995.

https://www.designnews.com/automation-motion-control/technology-tacks-toward-cup

Oh for God's sake!

I was talking about ETNZ and only ETNZ!

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

You will learn very fast that the Kiwi fanboys think they are god's gift to the world of sailing...  Everything they do is the greatest that has ever happen. 

There are 4 people in the world EVER who have won an Olympic Gold medal, won and successfully defended the America’s Cup and they’re ALL Kiwi’s. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, marlowe said:

Since TNZ won in '95 the winning teams have all followed a 3 AC cycle; win it - defend it - lose it.

So next AC ......... ^_^

The threepeat will be a huge motivational factor for ETNZ. Never been done before. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Haven’t scanned the entire thread so apologies if someone covered this point: I think Kiwi’s do design and development just a bit differently. Sure boat simulation has probably changed this some, but I’ve seen it in car and bike rallying, on construction sites and a few other places. They come up with an idea that might work, then do a “quick and dirty” test run of a mock up version 1.1. They don’t engage much with conventional processes or precedent approach to, say, construction best practice They build a mock up fast and cheaply, give it a run and either chase down that design line, if the “success” criteria are met, till it becomes clear that they need to reverse out of the wormhole, or they ditch it and move on. People will just do this at home with a mate, bring the idea into a team or group if it looks like working and they won’t really be given a hard time by the established project management or design team. That saves heaps of time in development. Yep, others do it to, but kiwi’s do it as a matter of course. Seen it heaps. No idea why it’s the case.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Someone once told me that NZ had the highest number of yacht owners as a percentage of the population, and anecdotally I believe it, having seen the fleets of small boats round the place, other countries might have more people sailing, but thats because they have massively more population. The more of your population you expose to sailing, the higher chance you have of finding someone talented, combine that with decent training programs from an early age that encourage sailing, and it becomes a numbers game, you just have a higher chance of producing good sailors. Australia does well at sailing for similar reasons, get the kids interested at a young age, get them out on the water and enjoying it then push them down the pathway. The UK does ok out of sheer bloody mindedness and a top notch Olympic program.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think a big part of ETNZ's success can be traced back to an industry of world class builders who because of their isolated location couldn't survive unless they adpated very quickly and innovated faster than their offshore competitors; think of Cooksons, Southern Spars etc. The next key part is Peter Blake and Dalton and their approach and particpation in Whitbread races. This is where they learnt about sponsorship, leadership, failure, determination, and most importantly how you go about putting a team together and create a culture that is sustainable and successful.  The All Blacks don't always live by it, but have a much quoted "no dickheads" culture.  Jimmy Spithill who was a dickhead in San Fran was a huge motivating factor to Dalts and ETNZ. Think about how humble the ETNZ crew are and how they have thrived on smaller budgets. They all earn very good money but I don't think this is the prime motivation.  I think LR had many of these values. While it possible to win a one-off AC, it's hard to sustain a winning team unless you have this culture. Some really tough decisions for INEOS and the first thing they need to get their heads around is that more money  doesn't always help.

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, marlowe said:

When I was at school in Auckland the tuck shop sold only pies and donuts. :)

pie_and_donut.jpg

But it was a manky Big Ben pie, and dodgy mass produced donut...

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR4-Z4fPaLf1gdnb44Nok4

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Clapham said:

.....  Jimmy Spithill who was a dickhead in San Fran was a huge motivating factor to Dalts and ETNZ. .........

He might regret now how that provocation worked out. ^_^

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, marlowe said:

He might regret now how that provocation worked out. ^_^

I think the Italians were a good influence on Jimmy and he was a good influence on them. Jimmy fed off Larry who is a great mentor for a dickhead. In Auckland, Jimmy tried so hard to not be a dickhead, but it didn't come naturally. If you are really good and are motivated by money you will need to change teams if the money runs out. Coutts has a very big house and great track record so hats off to him.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, kiwin said:

Bruce Farr was a boatbuilder first. I think he was apprenticed to Jim Young, or was it Alan?

Jim.....

He was one of the first to utilise a canting keel in his keelboat, Fiery Cross.

The Young 88 featured a unique interior layout which has since been copied in all boats of this size and type.

Young employed many young sailors and designers through his boat building business, the most notable being a young Bruce Farr, who went on to become a highly successful designer in his own right on the international racing scene.

The first 88 hull was strip-planked under my (Jim Youngs) supervision by Greg Elliott for the Satherwaites in Roger Land’s yard, under an arrangement whereby Roger took a GRP hull mould from the plug, before handing it over to the Satherwaites.
Tickled Pink was therefore not only the first 88, but also it has the distinction of being the first yacht to be built using a new construction method, which subsequently revolutionised custom boat building. This was the now standard technique of using a strip-planked core as a former for a special fibreglass and epoxy covering, inside and out which possessed enormous strength. This is now popularly known as the West System, after the material suppliers (The original Rocket 31 was also built this way, in 1983.)

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, marlowe said:

He might regret now how that provocation worked out. ^_^

Undoubtedly. He came within an asses roar of being taken off the boat in SFO and again, in Bermuda where his confidence was shattered. LRPP offered him a job, generously brought him into the family, rebuilt and restored his confidence but most importantly, rehabilitated him to sparkle in a team full of decent people. And it has been the makings of him in more ways than one. Look at the genuine affection and friendship between him and Checco. Who would have believed it. best of all, he described his spin with LRPP as the highlight of his career. Let's hope they get to continue and compete valiantly in the next AC. Dalton described them as 'warriors' and he doesn't give out compliments easily. More than anyone, they deserve a shot at redemption. And the spectacle would be all the better for it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm afraid to say, when the Aussies took the cup from a bunch of millionaires and their egos, we thought fuck it, we can do that too. It took a while for the right people to assemble, but now we're a bone with a DOG. :)

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, DickDastardly said:

Australia punches above its weight in many areas because it is a young country with a prematurely mature economy with an educated population built on a can-do culture with a big inferiority complex about the rest of the world.

New Zealand punches way above its weight in many areas because it is a young country with a prematurely mature economy with an educated population built on a can-do culture with a big inferiority complex about the rest of the world and Australia.

I think THIS sums it up. 

They punch above their weight in cricket, netball and have been the dominate force world rugby (although not always winning the world cup despite being overwhelming favourites for the past 2 decades). I'm going on a limb here, but the slight inferiority complex to Australia just enhances all of those attributes.

In terms of yachting, they do quality. They build top class boats, spars etc.  Surprisingly they were world class innovators in GPs technology for marine applications too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navman

various factors lead to them being good at sailing, but excellent at the America's Cup - interestingly it is inconceivable for there to be 2 successful NZ syndicates (see what happened when Ailinghi chequebooked them). If there was the drive to do a similiar australian challenge the whole time ETNZ has been around they could well have won it all themselves.

\

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Erwankerauzen said:

What happen in SF for Jimmy to deserve  "Dickhead" designation??

He was an obnoxious little wanker-in other words,  a stereotypical brash Ozzie. 

In the last cup, the Italians clearly taught him to keep his feet off the dinner table and he behaved really well.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/19/2021 at 12:09 AM, Will_Co said:

I would like to read the anthropological study of Kiwis that explains why they are so dominant in the America’s Cup. They’ve won 4 of the last 8 ACs and were 3 for 3 in challenger cups during that same span. And yet, there are more than 100 countries with larger populations, and more than 50 with a larger GDP. Hard to come up with another sporting event where so much success in such a technically complex field has been achieved with so little.

It’s not convincing to say that everyone in NZ sails, so no wonder their success. Lots of people sail elsewhere in far greater numbers and in well-heeled sailing meccas. ETNZ designs are typically a cut above the field, but one would imagine that competitors from countries with universities the likes of MIT, Cambridge, and Politecnico di Milano, the design field would be relatively even. Generational talents like Coutts and Burling help but are insufficient on their own. Money is no advantage for NZ either.

Although I love the country and have been a fan of ETNZ for a long time, part of me was hoping for an LRPP win because it’s easy to cheer for the underdog and it’s good to see the Cup change hands. At the same time, ETNZ have always been the underdog. Paradoxically, they are frequently the favourite. It’s impressive and perplexing all the same.  

I think the colour of the boats and shirts are the key differentiators. :P

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, shebeen said:

I'm going on a limb here, but the slight inferiority complex to Australia just enhances all of those attributes.

I think 'slight' is an understatement. 

Fortunately, NZL's chronic inferiority complex is a major motivator to simply try harder.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/18/2021 at 6:15 PM, The_Alchemist said:

You will learn very fast that the Kiwi fanboys think they are god's gift to the world of sailing...  Everything they do is the greatest that has ever happen. 

That's ok,

No one else in the rest of the world can understand why a baseball game only played in one country, can be called the "world series"

go figure.....

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Keith said:

That's ok,

No one else in the rest of the world can understand why a baseball game only played in one country, can be called the "world series"

go figure.....

Was it not named after the initial title sponsor? A newspaper.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes it was named after a newspaper called "The New York World". It was owned by a chap called Pullitzer. You may have heard of him. It's a touch ironic that the Pullitzer Prize is given for the best journalism as he was a shameless propagandist.

Link to post
Share on other sites

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Series

 

The original World Series

Until the formation of the American Association in 1882 as a second major league, the National Association of Professional Base Ball Players (1871–1875) and then the National League (founded 1876) represented the top level of organized baseball in the United States. All championships were awarded to the team with the best record at the end of the season, without a postseason series being played. From 1884 to 1890, the National League and the American Association faced each other in a series of games at the end of the season to determine an overall champion. These series were disorganized in comparison to the modern World Series, with the terms arranged through negotiation of the owners of the championship teams beforehand. The number of games played ranged from as few as three in 1884 (Providence defeated New York three games to zero), to a high of fifteen in 1887 (Detroit beat St. Louis ten games to five). Both the 1885 and 1890 Series ended in ties, each team having won three games with one tie game.[5]

The series was promoted and referred to as "The Championship of the United States",[6][7] "World's Championship Series", or "World's Series" for short. In his book Krakatoa: The Day the World Exploded: August 27, 1883, Simon Winchester mentions in passing that the World Series was named for the New York World newspaper,[8] but this view is disputed.[9]

Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Keith said:

That's ok,

No one else in the rest of the world can understand why a baseball game only played in one country, can be called the "world series"

go figure.....

Actually, the Caribbean is producing most of the stars in Baseball... not much of a fan of the game, too slow.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/19/2021 at 2:15 PM, The_Alchemist said:

You will learn very fast that the Kiwi fanboys think they are god's gift to the world of sailing...  Everything they do is the greatest that has ever happen. 

Your love for NZ, shines forever strong

Link to post
Share on other sites