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Off market 45ish cat for sale?


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Howdy,

My brother and family (wife and 2 young boys) are looking for a 45’ish cat.  400k US max budget.

Requirements:
-Non Condomoran

-not a project boat 

-well built

-preferably US east coast/Caribbean location 

-preferably cruising gear already installed (good battery bank, solar, watermaker, etc) if close to 400k max budget.

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Doesn't meet your location but otherwise well equipped. Dura core construction which might be a negative.

https://www.catamaransite.com/catamarans-for-sale/schionning-50/

Another strip planked (red cedar core/glassed over)

https://www.catamaransite.com/catamarans-for-sale/hercher-bm50/

Disclaimer: my wife does interviews for them, where she interviews sailors that own cats and asks them about what they like/don't like about their boats. No financial interest otherwise.

 

 

 

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23 hours ago, Zonker said:

Doesn't meet your location but otherwise well equipped. Dura core construction which might be a negative.

https://www.catamaransite.com/catamarans-for-sale/schionning-50/

Another strip planked (red cedar core/glassed over)

https://www.catamaransite.com/catamarans-for-sale/hercher-bm50/

Disclaimer: my wife does interviews for them, where she interviews sailors that own cats and asks them about what they like/don't like about their boats. No financial interest otherwise.

 

Is it me or that second one seems cheap? What's the catch?

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Lots of people don't want a wood core boat. To me, red cedar is no worse than balsa. But you have to be careful with it and keep the core dry, just like balsa.

Could be that the boat is worn out and tired and pictures are not current.

Very skinny hulls with narrow bunks. 

Not a production boat.

All these affect resale value

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I own a CW 57, so I am CW biased.

Godspeed is in great shape and that's way to clean an engine room.

Don't overlook the older Robertson Caine boats nor the Voyages, they both sail decently. Those two makes both sail well with a decent sail plan.

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And why oh why do we keep putting heavy old fashioned instruments on the wall of light cats. A digital recording barometer is far more useful. And a $5 stick on LCD clock can light up at night. Both are far more functional. Got to be the best $/lb weight savings possible.

image.png.c351a5fc506c1f02e0bae192c9bf0941.png

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20 hours ago, Zonker said:

Lots of people don't want a wood core boat. To me, red cedar is no worse than balsa. But you have to be careful with it and keep the core dry, just like balsa.

Could be that the boat is worn out and tired and pictures are not current.

Very skinny hulls with narrow bunks. 

Not a production boat.

All these affect resale value

That Hercher 50 looks great to me.  Certainly the location affects value as well - if it was on the W. Coast or FL I'm sure it'd be an easier sell assuming it's in decent shape.  If I were still in the market I'd be intrigued, thought the headroom looks like it could be pretty marginal, which is what turned me off the lightweight French cats - at 6'2" I couldn't stand up in the galley on most of them.  

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57 minutes ago, soma said:

Man, now you got me self-conscious. My boat came with a big bronze barometer prominently placed. Now it mocks me. 

Ours came with a matching clock, both very high quality nautical instruments that weigh a ton:(

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1 hour ago, soma said:

Man, now you got me self-conscious. My boat came with a big bronze barometer prominently placed. Now it mocks me. 

Don’t go there. Your boat is already gorgeous and does her job just right. She doesn’t need to be supermodel skinny. 

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I think red cedar hulls are probably the best of all. Strength wise it is nearly unbeatable and water retention is minimal.

Don't be afraid of ply or balsa either in a old boat. (I would never build a boat out of balsa but...) A very thorough survey with a moisture meter will soon tell if there are problems. If the boat is dry after all this time it will most likely stay that way. Don't drill any new holes in it.

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On 3/21/2021 at 3:08 AM, Zonker said:

And why oh why do we keep putting heavy old fashioned instruments on the wall of light cats. A digital recording barometer is far more useful. And a $5 stick on LCD clock can light up at night. Both are far more functional. Got to be the best $/lb weight savings possible.

image.png.c351a5fc506c1f02e0bae192c9bf0941.png

You have me worrying about mine too now!!!!

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On 3/20/2021 at 10:08 AM, Zonker said:

And why oh why do we keep putting heavy old fashioned instruments on the wall of light cats. A digital recording barometer is far more useful. And a $5 stick on LCD clock can light up at night. Both are far more functional. Got to be the best $/lb weight savings possible.

image.png.c351a5fc506c1f02e0bae192c9bf0941.png

Just attach them to the main kingpost and it's all good! ;)

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4 hours ago, Zonker said:

high on my $/lb weight savings are fiberglass propane tank. Save 20 lbs compared to steel tanks x 2 tanks

Well yes, and I've got three of them. Does that mean I save 60lbs?

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- convince your wife that she doesn't need 7 pairs of shoes...

- e-readers / tablets to replace books and paper manuals

- inflatable fenders are shockingly lighter than vinyl ones. Or have a mix for rough docks where the inflatables are not as desirable

 

 

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is that seven pairs per season or per month

(my wife's reaction to Imelda Marcos...so much money so few shoes...prior to marriage I thought multisyllabic, expensive and Italian meant things like Maserati Biturbo or Ferrari Testarosa or Riva Aquarama or Riva Tritone...then I learned about Salvatore Ferragamo, Bruno Cucinelli, Dolce & Gabana, Giuseppe Zanotti)

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Back on topic, the other Chris White Voyager 48, Brio, is for sale. That one has a single dagger board instead of keels and a rotating mast.

https://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/pl_boat_detail.jsp?&units=Feet&id=3674897&lang=en&slim=broker&&hosturl=cwdesigns&&ywo=cwdesigns&

We have the first one and find it quite satisfactory despite the keels.

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Western Red Cedar in a strip planked configuration for a multihull with proper in and out sheathing in the composite of your choice is going to give great and long lived service at a high strength/weight and weight/stiffness categories. And at a lower cost per sq ft if you know what you are doing. A bit of judicious carbon applied in carefully considered high stress areas will create an amazing craft!

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I know it's a good core for strip planked construction. Certainly cheaper. But these days, I'd use Ian Farrier "wide thermoformed foam" method for a one off. The resale alone would be so much better as evidenced by the relatively low cost of all these boats with wood core.

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Getting off mrybas subject but there ain't much going on elsewhere -

I built an Airex foam cored, unidirectional/CSM  glass skinned, polyester resin, Kelsall trimaran in 1978. Despite the best efforts of three derelict owners totally neglecting and abusing the boat after the second owner and I had enjoyed twenty years of outstanding structural performance the boat is STILL a candidate for a thorough refinish/refit - these materials of construction are absolutely awesome. Check out the Triple Jack story.

My second build was Divinycell cored, all unidirectional glass skinned, Vinyl Ester resin, my design trimaran in 1991, that boat has been properly maintained, is like new and structurally flawless. Materials that were not available first time around yielded a better weight/stiffness/strength result but in my opinion no long term durability improvement. Divinycell had a broader available density range, I used 3, 5, 6 and 10 pound density, weights wood can't match at the required shear and compression loads.

I bought an Airex cored, crappy woven roving/CSM glass (the spec suggested non crimp bi-axial), polyester resin 1991 built St Francis 44 in 1997 which I still own. This build is also structurally flawless and those materials of construction were of significant importance in my choice of a production built cruising cat.

My first boat was a strip planked western red cedar, CSM glass/polyester resin sheathed monohull. I bought her as a ten year old rebuild project which contributed enormously to my subsequent construction material choices. That boat served me well but the structure was never challenged with the weight/strength requirements of a multihull.

 

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On 3/23/2021 at 9:19 PM, Rasputin22 said:

Western Red Cedar in a strip planked configuration for a multihull with proper in and out sheathing in the composite of your choice is going to give great and long lived service at a high strength/weight and weight/stiffness categories. And at a lower cost per sq ft if you know what you are doing. A bit of judicious carbon applied in carefully considered high stress areas will create an amazing craft!

Presto was built by Lone Star Multihulls. I believe Brio was built by Lombardi.

Presto under construction

 

hull_construction.jpg

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Don't know. I thought, without justification, that they were uni reinforcing strips. Presto was launched in 1995, and Lone Star Multihulls is long gone. Chris might know. I'll try to remember to ask.

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  • 4 weeks later...

@Zonker is there an advantage for wood strip planking in that it's not isotropic? Ie. Does the grain running parallel to the hull make for a stiffer hull which bends less over time and thus becomes less tired? I dont know - just ideas that i hope others can validate.

Brio looks like it has a foam deck which I would imagine addresses most of the problems with hardware through hulls, etc. Is your hesitation purely on resale value or do you think there's more chance if rot etc in a cedar core hull?

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This crowther 42 has some cool features eg. "Frangible" foam in last foot of the dagger board (ie. The last foot is sacrificial), kick up rudders, retractable out boards, etc.

I would be tempted if it had an inch more headroom (don't shoot =p) 

https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-catamarans/crowther-42/220967

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Global bending is rarely an issue especially with cats. The whole platform flexes anyway.

Even people that talk about monohulls getting too soft - it's rarely a real concern except to hard core racers maybe anecdotally. 

I would be more concerned with rot in any wood core - balsa, cedar, or (shudder) plywood. This perception does affect resale value. I would really hesitate to buy a hull that is cored with anything but foam. My personal predjudice I guess. But I've dealt with too much rotten plywood in decks and as hatch cover lining etc etc. or delammed balsa.

 

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4 hours ago, MichalD said:

I would be tempted if it had an inch more headroom (don't shoot =p) 

https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-catamarans/crowther-42/220967

What’s the headroom, doesn’t say anywhere?

it’s not far from where there is a Mumby too I think, perhaps a fun trip to “Peely-peely” is in order

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6 hours ago, Zonker said:

I would be more concerned with rot in any wood core - balsa, cedar, or (shudder) plywood. This perception does affect resale value. I would really hesitate to buy a hull that is cored with anything but foam. My personal predjudice I guess. But I've dealt with too much rotten plywood in decks and as hatch cover lining etc etc. or delammed balsa.

Does "end grain balsa" resolve the issue?  EG: the fibers are perpendicular to the surface so water should not be able to travel very far.    It seems new boats built by Beneteau brands and some south african yards (I think?) are using end grain balsa.  I even saw one article expositing its virtues against foam.  But my general assumption is that if a material is renewable its only used because it's cheaper than a petrochemical derived one. 

How about "cold molding"?  I saw it described as "the wood is saturated with resin", but not sure if that use of the word "saturated" means "permeated completely" or just "completely covered".

The Dix Harvey 550 looks like a really nice design but was built using cold molding. (at least the examples I've seen.)  I saw one broker go into the forepeak locker with a camera to show us "the finest in old world boat craftsmanship".  I find that statement horrifying, but I don't want to be prejudiced against a good build method. 

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6 hours ago, EarthBM said:

What’s the headroom, doesn’t say anywhere?

it’s not far from where there is a Mumby too I think, perhaps a fun trip to “Peely-peely” is in 

The saloon headroom is 192cm, which actually isn't bad but is just short of the 195 that I need to stand up straight. 

The broker was very friendly and got some video for me (sorry for the thread drift). Looked roughly like the pics minus rust on some of the stainless and blisters in the locker (said to be paint only but definitely worth a closer look). 

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8 hours ago, NedZepplin said:

How about "cold molding"?  I saw it described as "the wood is saturated with resin", but not sure if that use of the word "saturated" means "permeated completely" or just "completely covered".

My Crowther tri was cold molded with West epoxy. I got a real nasty gash to the core from a windstorm while at the dock. 5 months later I hauled it out and the wetness had barely expanded and this was in one of the wettest winters in the PNW. It was double diagonal planked with cedar. I don't now if it was saturated to the core. but it sure made the patch job easier.

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13 minutes ago, Son of a Sailor said:

Just an observation . . . the trimaran moored in front of Talisker in those photos appears to be Hydroptere no??

Well spotted! It probably is, others here would know better. The ghost images from Google Maps look cool:

 

tri in HI.jpg

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13 hours ago, NedZepplin said:

Does "end grain balsa" resolve the issue?  EG: the fibers are perpendicular to the surface so water should not be able to travel very far.    It seems new boats built by Beneteau brands and some south african yards (I think?) are using end grain balsa.  I even saw one article expositing its virtues against foam.  But my general assumption is that if a material is renewable its only used because it's cheaper than a petrochemical derived one. 

 

End grain balsa is SUPPOSED to prevent water wicking. It just slows the progress down. I've seen a lot of J-Boats with balsa core with big patches opened up with wet core. 

Balsa core has better shear strength - but typical boatbuilding 80 kg/m3 foam cores are strong enough that the extra strength is not required.

Balsa is used because it is cheaper, not because it is better.

13 hours ago, NedZepplin said:

How about "cold molding"?  I saw it described as "the wood is saturated with resin", but not sure if that use of the word "saturated" means "permeated completely" or just "completely covered".

The wood is NOT saturated with resin. It goes in about 1mm. It is coated with resin and this stabilizes the moisture content, low enough to prevent rot.

4 hours ago, Sand crab said:

My Crowther tri was cold molded with West epoxy. I got a real nasty gash to the core from a windstorm while at the dock. 5 months later I hauled it out and the wetness had barely expanded and this was in one of the wettest winters in the PNW. It was double diagonal planked with cedar. I don't now if it was saturated to the core. but it sure made the patch job easier.

Was the gash above the waterline? Even in a rainy PNW winter, there are days that are dry and that allows partial drying.

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20 hours ago, MichalD said:

This crowther 42 has some cool features eg. "Frangible" foam in last foot of the dagger board (ie. The last foot is sacrificial), kick up rudders, retractable out boards, etc.

I would be tempted if it had an inch more headroom (don't shoot =p) 

https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-catamarans/crowther-42/220967

Wow, that looks like a very good buy, plenty of good quality relatively new gear all on a good looking boat. What’s the catch? and why hasn’t it sold in 3 years?

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On 3/20/2021 at 1:08 PM, Zonker said:

And why oh why do we keep putting heavy old fashioned instruments on the wall of light cats. A digital recording barometer is far more useful. And a $5 stick on LCD clock can light up at night. Both are far more functional. Got to be the best $/lb weight savings possible.

image.png.c351a5fc506c1f02e0bae192c9bf0941.png

My reason is they were a gift from my Dad that was on the name sake of my boat Blythe Spirit.  My Dad's 38 ft Abaco gaff rigged schooner built in Marsh Harbor in 1954 was named Blythe Spirit and the took the clock and barometer off and put them on the wall of his house when he was living on dirt.

My Seawind does have a composting head which weighs less than a porcelain throne many old fashioned boats have; not to mention the weight of 20+ gallons of water and a tank to hold it.  While the through hulls and plumbing may not weigh a whole lot getting rid of through hulls is always a big OK in my book.  Add in the weight and cost reduction of using outboards instead of inboards with shafts, struts, and props, along with those always problematic through hulls and I am reducing weight even more.  Did I mention I am also saving weight by eliminating through hulls and zincs; not to mention reducing costs to maintain the boat.

As an extra added attraction the clock rings eight bells to signal watch changes.

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16 hours ago, he b gb said:

Wow, that looks like a very good buy, plenty of good quality relatively new gear all on a good looking boat. What’s the catch? and why hasn’t it sold in 3 years?

Location? Blisters (screenshot below)?

374072677_safarilockers.thumb.jpg.fb610090d00bbef7cda57c4df8b00126.jpg

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They have a Dolphin 43 under contract.  
The boat was surveyed today, but seems to be moisture issues according to the surveyor.  I thought that was strange for a divyincell core boat.  I don’t have all the details though.

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On 4/23/2021 at 3:42 PM, Speng said:

Balance might still be offering the 451 on the cheap

The one in Antigua is sale pending and the one in New Zealand is $519k.

On 3/19/2021 at 9:34 PM, BeatmongerZ said:

Wow, seems to be new everything.  The engines are 2017 and have 230 hours  Lombardi is a US builder, right?  I don't know how many US built boats in this size and capability are at this price.   

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6 hours ago, teamvmg said:

If using uni, you don't need to overlap

 

Maybe turning bi axial into double bias?

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On 3/20/2021 at 1:37 PM, Zonker said:

Lots of people don't want a wood core boat. To me, red cedar is no worse than balsa. But you have to be careful with it and keep the core dry, just like balsa.

Could be that the boat is worn out and tired and pictures are not current.

Very skinny hulls with narrow bunks. 

Not a production boat.

All these affect resale value

 I agree, but think Balsa is far worse than cedar after owning  a boat with a cedar deck and one with a balsa deck.  But only one boat each is NOT enough experience to come down hard on the end grain balsa.... but I sure had to drill allot of 4" hole-saw sized holes in that balsa deck! The balsa boat was built by Valentine Howells  and the Cedar one was closely supervised by Ian Farrier ... so they were both excellent builds.

I would budget for repair to the balsa and pay less for a balsa cored boat, doubly so if the balsa goes below waterline.

 

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