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I've been wondering if we'll ever see any trickle down effect in the long term from the AC75's to more normal cruising yachts, or are the compromises in terms of keeping the weight down, the "need" for comfort and affordability too great?

Do you see any chance of trickle down, and if so, what and why?

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7 hours ago, Misbehavin' said:

I've been wondering if we'll ever see any trickle down effect in the long term from the AC75's to more normal cruising yachts, or are the compromises in terms of keeping the weight down, the "need" for comfort and affordability too great?

Do you see any chance of trickle down, and if so, what and why?

Some of the technology is already around. These boats have so many sensors that they can sail themselves but the rules force human control. 

H&H already makes recreational 60 foot fouling catamarans that are fairly automated. They will automatically trim the sails and foils through hydraulics and sensor feedback. 

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Probably not the terse, drunken or profanity-laden response you were expecting, but here is a master's thesis on the use of foils in cruising yachts from 2018. There is a brief reference to the AC75 on pg. 27, but most of the analysis is focused on the IMOCAs, DSS and the Figaro 3, with the latter being the lead candidate because of its compatibility with most mooring setups. 

 

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On 3/20/2021 at 8:34 PM, Misbehavin' said:

I've been wondering if we'll ever see any trickle down effect in the long term from the AC75's to more normal cruising yachts, or are the compromises in terms of keeping the weight down, the "need" for comfort and affordability too great?

Do you see any chance of trickle down, and if so, what and why?

Those trick twin skin mains look like something likely to make it into a few racing fleets at least.

Whats not to like about a highly adaptable rig that can generate 20 - 30% more power, is strong enough to survive boat wrecking capsizes and can still be lowered at sea in a few minutes by two or three crew.

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Cost is certainly a barrier.

But could a standard FCS with automatic ride height adjustment software be bought off the shelf and designed into wide-arsed cruising mono? I should think so. Why not? 

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Also, I think Guillaume Verdier would be a contender to design such a craft. I think he favoured twin rudders for additional stability, IIRC.

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5 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Cost is certainly a barrier.

But could a standard FCS with automatic ride height adjustment software be bought off the shelf and designed into wide-arsed cruising mono? I should think so. Why not? 

I wonder if a cruiser would not weigh so much as to render any foils impractical.

Its not so much the absolute weight, but the weight to length/beam where a cruiser 75 would weigh 20 tonne plus.

Not sure how you would get a sail plan with enough power to lift it clear of the water on a 75 footer.

Also, the foils would need to be a LOT LOT stronger.

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18 minutes ago, jaysper said:

I wonder if a cruiser would not weigh so much as to render any foils impractical.

Not if they were like INEOS' W jobbies. More lift than a 45-story skyscraper. ;-)

I was thinking something like, Te Kahu's set up. She is >35 feet, no? Plenty big enough for a stripped-out family cruiser/racer.

Obviously, with a hull speed of only 6-7 knots the auxiliary isn't going to help get her up on the foils either. So maybe not.

 

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2 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Not if they were like INEOS' W jobbies. More lift than a 45-story skyscraper. ;-)

I was thinking something like, Te Kahu's set up. She is >35 feet, no? Plenty big enough for a stripped-out family cruiser/racer.

Obviously, with a hull speed of only 6-7 knots the auxiliary isn't going to help get her up on the foils either. So maybe not.

 

Yeah, 12 metres.

 

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The biggest revolution that the AC75 introduced was the elimination of the ballasted keel, deriving nearly all stability from the lifting foils countered by the forces on the rig. By getting rid of the keel, they save a lot of weight, which gives them sufficient power for takeoff and flight.

They were supposed to be self-righting with some ballast in the foils, but none has ever managed to do that to date. 

So basically they sail like overgrown dinghies.

There might be some interest in a smaller version for inshore racing, but the concept is inapplicable to any form of cruising

 

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Come to think of it, policing the diamond shaped exclusion zones around each boat might be difficult at a club level, leading to multiple expensive clashes of foils at the mark rounding. And the potential for the occasional amputation of body parts...

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Rob (at 9' or so) doesn't mention it as a trickle down but it is actually the biggest trickle down from AC. It's knowledge and experience to the marine industry. All parties involved in the cup are being pushed for the processes, methodology, design and such. Even if we don't see direct link between an AC boat and the next cruiser, there are some behind the curtain with more effective design process, load analysis and tools, build and so on. You can't forget what you learned.

Yes, some of that is too expensive for small productions, for now. That's the company work to sell it for high end production and work on making it even more efficient and affordable.

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Whilst foils may be of some use, I think for the majority they are too much of a problem. Having a DSS foil sticking out sideways would very rapidly mean it being demolished at a mooring.. Most yachts would be too heavy to fly, as they things like toilets, cookers and berths.

Most of us try to extend the life of our sails due to their cost.., A double sided sail needing fancy controls way is too expensive for the majority..

Even in dinghies most places would have problems, certainly underwater extensions beyond the width of the boat would get banned , there would just be no way to police collisions / touches under water.

Many dinghy clubs sail in restricted waters, a foiling boat means getting wet to launch, fine in the warmth of the south of the USA, not so much fun in Canada or the North of Scotland mid winter or spring.. or even summer..   Foilers would have to tack earlier away from lake and river banks, avoid wind shadows from trees and buildings .

On a tight waters like the Norfolk Broads even those out on the broads themselves would spend a lot of time crashed down at hull speed.

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1 hour ago, alphafb552 said:

There might be some interest in a smaller version for inshore racing, but the concept is inapplicable to any form of cruising

I wouldn't write off the possibility Alpha.

Who'd have expected the Gunboat G4, inspired by the foiling cats?

It's only a matter of time and a shit-load of money.

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I think there's a general misconception on the concept of 'trickle down' - a lot of people expect more than a trickle..... 

Will we see unballasted foiling yachts with twin skin mainsails launched for the cruising market - highly unlikely this will ever happen.

Will materials technology trickle down through the manufacturing process to create lighter and stronger hulls for cruising yachts - most likely yes. This is already happening with companies such as Gunboat who are using the Thin Ply Technology, an offshoot of Norths development of their 3Di sails, to robotically manufacture their bulkheads and stringers to exact tolerances at a low weight. Whilst GB are undoubtedly a high end manufacturer outside most peoples budgets, it's a sign that the tech has made the step down from the grand-prix/AC level. I should note it's the UK based Fibre Mechanics that actually manufacture the pieces for GB.

Regarding AC36 tech - the guys at Advanced Wing Systems who have been working on twin-skin mainsails for years (and were involved with AMs Mule rig) are currently in South Africa fitting a twin-skin mainsail to a Vision 444 cruising catamaran so the jump outside of the AC has already been made. 

There are two 70-ish foot foiling Maxi racers signed for construction this year, twin-skin mains are making the transition and I'd expect more to start showing up in racing fleets in the next 6-12 months.

Harken developed their new grinding clutch through this cycle - that will filter down into TP and Maxi classes in the next 12 months. 

There'll be a bunch of materials and parts developed during this AC cycle that will make their way into various levels of production - either directly in more or less their original form or as parts in different systems adapted to specific markets. Some will be publicised, some will just meld into the cycle and we'll never know....

NB - I started writing this before Lakrass posted Mozzy's vid so not sure if an of this is repetition....

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5 minutes ago, NZK said:

I think there's a general misconception on the concept of 'trickle down' - a lot of people expect more than a trickle..... 

Will we see unballasted foiling yachts with twin skin mainsails launched for the cruising market - highly unlikely this will ever happen.

Will materials technology trickle down through the manufacturing process to create lighter and stronger hulls for cruising yachts - most likely yes. This is already happening with companies such as Gunboat who are using the Thin Ply Technology, an offshoot of Norths development of their 3Di sails, to robotically manufacture their bulkheads and stringers to exact tolerances at a low weight. Whilst GB are undoubtedly a high end manufacturer outside most peoples budgets, it's a sign that the tech has made the step down from the grand-prix/AC level. I should note it's the UK based Fibre Mechanics that actually manufacture the pieces for GB.

Regarding AC36 tech - the guys at Advanced Wing Systems who have been working on twin-skin mainsails for years (and were involved with AMs Mule rig) are currently in South Africa fitting a twin-skin mainsail to a Vision 444 cruising catamaran so the jump outside of the AC has already been made. 

There are two 70-ish foot foiling Maxi racers signed for construction this year, twin-skin mains are making the transition and I'd expect more to start showing up in racing fleets in the next 6-12 months.

Harken developed their new grinding clutch through this cycle - that will filter down into TP and Maxi classes in the next 12 months. 

There'll be a bunch of materials and parts developed during this AC cycle that will make their way into various levels of production - either directly in more or less their original form or as parts in different systems adapted to specific markets. Some will be publicised, some will just meld into the cycle and we'll never know....

NB - I started writing this before Lakrass posted Mozzy's vid so not sure if an of this is repetition....

I don't believe twin skin mains and unballasted foiling yachts are mutually exclusive, are they? Automated flight software would be the biggest hurdle, IMO.

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We didn't really cover trickle down (directly). But we do cover battery capacity in the episode on race format. 

Talking to a few a few of the chaps in the teams it seems they only just about had enough battery. Obviously, they could fit larger batteries, and the size of the battery was maybe specified on the how long the races would be rather than vice versa. 

IMOCA have to recharge batteries on the fly. Maybe reduce chemical stored energy aboard so it's the bare minimum to get around the course in limited manoeuvres. Then top up from solar, wind and hydro capture. I think that could see some trickle down. 

But I feel the energy capture devices (whatever they should choose) would have to be lighter weight than just adding extra battery capacity otherwise it's just a gimmick. But for that to be the case you'd probably need much longer races... like round the IoW.

P.s. Rita 1 has sailed around the IoW (i think there were some public images showing them of St Catherine's), but they needed to stop to switch batteries. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

We didn't really cover trickle down (directly). But we do cover battery capacity in the episode on race format. 

Talking to a few a few of the chaps in the teams it seems they only just about had enough battery. Obviously, they could fit larger batteries, and the size of the battery was maybe specified on the how long the races would be rather than vice versa. 

IMOCA have to recharge batteries on the fly. Maybe reduce chemical stored energy aboard so it's the bare minimum to get around the course in limited manoeuvres. Then top up from solar, wind and hydro capture. I think that could see some trickle down. 

But I feel the energy capture devices (whatever they should choose) would have to be lighter weight than just adding extra battery capacity otherwise it's just a gimmick. But for that to be the case you'd probably need much longer races... like round the IoW.

P.s. Rita 1 has sailed around the IoW (i think there were some public images showing them of St Catherine's), but they needed to stop to switch batteries. 

 

Ha. Piss poor range, just like regular BEV's.

Turbo diesel might be the answer. ;-)

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2 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

I don't believe twin skin mains and unballasted foiling yachts are mutually exclusive, are they? Automated flight software would be the biggest hurdle, IMO.

No of course not - hence the twin skin main being fitted to a cruising catamaran...

I doubt we'll see full foiling cruising yachts because IMO the impracticalities outweigh the benefits. Semi-displacement such as DSS may become more common.

3 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

We didn't really cover trickle down (directly). But we do cover battery capacity in the episode on race format.

I'm not sure to what extent development in battery capacity and energy capture in sailing yachts is being driven from within the industry or whether it's capitalising on advances from outside the industry? With automotive, industrial and space industries pumping billions into battery tech I doubt whether the yachting market makes much of an impact (there will of course be some degree of adaption of the tech for marine use). 

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8 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

Rita 1 has sailed around the IoW (i think there were some public images showing them of St Catherine's), but they needed to stop to switch batteries. 

It didn’t take Formula E long to ditch the car swap due to battery technology advances the foil cant control systems will improve over time as well no doubt.

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7 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

P.s. Rita 1 has sailed around the IoW (i think there were some public images showing them of St Catherine's), but they needed to stop to switch batteries.

Probably swapped out a grinder or two as well.....

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1 minute ago, NZK said:

I'm not sure to what extent development in battery capacity and energy capture in sailing yachts is being driven from within the industry or whether it's capitalising on advances from outside the industry? With automotive, industrial and space industries pumping billions into battery tech I doubt whether the yachting market makes much of an impact (there will of course be some degree of adaption of the tech for marine use). 

True. I am sure they could have sourced a better battery should they have wished. But yeah, I can't imagine sailing driving battery development. 

I was more thinking that the energy capture and recharge systems could be driven by sailing. The IMOCA's are probably a better platform to develop this though, where durability is a more profitable quality. But stuff like this could be very good for trickle down to cruising yachts. Finding somewhere to fuel can be a pain. Finding somewhere to get a new gas cannister can be a pain. Having solar, wind and hydro charge your domestic needs and motor for exploring up creeks and estuaries without having to plan fuel stops would be a nice trickle down for your average yacht owner. 

 

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4 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

True. I am sure they could have sourced a better battery should they have wished. But yeah, I can't imagine sailing driving battery development. 

I was more thinking that the energy capture and recharge systems could be driven by sailing. The IMOCA's are probably a better platform to develop this though, where durability is a more profitable quality. But stuff like this could be very good for trickle down to cruising yachts. Finding somewhere to fuel can be a pain. Finding somewhere to get a new gas cannister can be a pain. Having solar, wind and hydro charge your domestic needs and motor for exploring up creeks and estuaries without having to plan fuel stops would be a nice trickle down for your average yacht owner. 

 

Totally agree. The superyacht and 'performance cruising' marketares also doing a lot of work here - they have the cash to invest. Gunboat are doing a lot of work with solar efficiency and yards like Baltic are making a push towards efficiency and regeneration that should hopefully benefit the wider cruising market over time...

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3 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

I wouldn't write off the possibility Alpha.

Who'd have expected the Gunboat G4, inspired by the foiling cats?

It's only a matter of time and a shit-load of money.

I agree with you with regards to foiling cats. I spent a couple of months on the same dock as the G4 Timbalero while the yard was installing an automated and upgraded foil control system and got a pretty close look at her. I would definitely consider her a foiling cruiser, but unfortunately I gather not many other people did, as only 3 platforms were built (the aforementioned Timbalero and two stripped out racing versions) - not a great success story.

Foiling monos? that's a different ball game..

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3 hours ago, alphafb552 said:

I agree with you with regards to foiling cats. I spent a couple of months on the same dock as the G4 Timbalero while the yard was installing an automated and upgraded foil control system and got a pretty close look at her. I would definitely consider her a foiling cruiser, but unfortunately I gather not many other people did, as only 3 platforms were built (the aforementioned Timbalero and two stripped out racing versions) - not a great success story.

Foiling monos? that's a different ball game..

As far as I can tell, H&H is the new leader in the residential luxury foiling cat market.  They seem to be selling well.  Gunboat came out too fast and took on too much debt swinging for the fences

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4 minutes ago, Blitzkrieg9 said:

As far as I can tell, H&H is the new leader in the residential luxury foiling cat market.  They seem to be selling well.  Gunboat came out too fast and took on too much debt swinging for the fences

Not sure I agree - IMHO the new GB under GLY are putting out boats that are a step above the HHs in terms of quality and I definitely prefer their aesthetics over the HH. I think most at GB would admit they had a few teething problems but the new 68s are very impressive and with 4 68s launched (and a 5th on the way) and solid interest in an 80 they're doing OK. I'm not certain but I'm going to assume that HH are both cheaper and able to offer quicker deliveries which could explain their higher volumes but doesn't necessarily make them the 'leader'.....

Also, apart from the ill-fated G4, no one is foiling yet in that market- some semi-displacement C boards but not much more.

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29 minutes ago, NZK said:

Not sure I agree - IMHO the new GB under GLY are putting out boats that are a step above the HHs in terms of quality and I definitely prefer their aesthetics over the HH. I think most at GB would admit they had a few teething problems but the new 68s are very impressive and with 4 68s launched (and a 5th on the way) and solid interest in an 80 they're doing OK. I'm not certain but I'm going to assume that HH are both cheaper and able to offer quicker deliveries which could explain their higher volumes but doesn't necessarily make them the 'leader'.....

Also, apart from the ill-fated G4, no one is foiling yet in that market- some semi-displacement C boards but not much more.

Great points. Tho, I doubt full foiling is even in the long term plan for H&H.  I've walked thru them all and GB has historically had very spartan interiors and ridiculous layouts like a galley below.  Its all speed, no comfort.  H&H has planned for the middle ground of very very fast but still 100% livable/ entertaining luxury.  GB is designed to impress sailors. H&H is designed to impress your millionaire friends. 

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8 hours ago, Mozzy Sails said:

P.s. Rita 1 has sailed around the IoW (i think there were some public images showing them of St Catherine's), but they needed to stop to switch batteries. 

And undies?

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10 hours ago, Mozzy Sails said:

 



P.s. Rita 1 has sailed around the IoW (i think there were some public images showing them of St Catherine's), but they needed to stop to switch batteries. 

 

What battery, the FCS one?

Can that not be charged by human power(is it just farting against thunder), and surely round the IoW would have long legs (tide depending) so less tacks/gybes?

 

in terms of trickle down, (while could just be schmarketing BS) it seems like the McKinsey led AI system of virtual 2 boat testing was quite crucial in boat/foil development for ETNZ. I felt their foils just looked too small compared to LRPP for lighter winds, but it came through no issues.

if this really was a marked advantage i see this tech being useful for everything from megayachts down to foiling oppies 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, shebeen said:

What battery, the FCS one?

Can that not be charged by human power(is it just farting against thunder), and surely round the IoW would have long legs (tide depending) so less tacks/gybes?

I believe trying to grind enough charge into the batteries for foil lifts would be like trying to shit out a smallish car.

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On 3/23/2021 at 1:02 AM, alphafb552 said:

for inshore racing

Which is exactly what the AC is.  We've already seen huge growth in foiling craft.  You can't get a UFO until June. 

The most significant trickle down will be in tech.  As millennials age and go cruising, they want the latest tech to help them around the globe.  I don't think anyone thinks Joe Cruiser will be foiling to Tahiti any time soon.

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On 3/23/2021 at 9:36 PM, jaysper said:

I believe trying to grind enough charge into the batteries for foil lifts would be like trying to shit out a smallish car.

ok talking numbers, that makes a lot of sense.

8 grinders, averaging 300W for 20 mins race - assuming a 100% efficiency, they generate ~ 0.8kWh per race and weigh about 800kg as a group

for about $1000 you can get a 1kWh LiFePo4 battery that weighs 20kg

 

 

from https://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2019/12/11/americas-cup-how-techie-are-you/#:~:text=It is 300W per grinder,but much more in peaks.

Can you please tell us some specifics of the motor driving the hydraulic pump?
It is a single 15kW (20 HP) motor powering a pump which either drives directly or into an accumulator.

What is the energy in the battery pack in kilowatt hours (kWh)? Voltage?
It is a Torqueedo battery, 48V, 5kWh (5000 watts output for one hour, 500 watts for 10 hours, etc.)

I had a look at the Class rule doc from here http://noticeboard.acofficials.org/ac75-class

there's no info on the supplied FCS battery [27.7] but i guess shifting the cant arms +1000kg that easily is a lot of hydraulic power

Quote

The FCS will include supplied batteries, and this battery pack may be expanded with a specified battery
model to increase overall power capacity, unless otherwise indicated in the FCS specification. The supplied
batteries are exempt from the requirements of Rule 5.13 and may be replaced as required.

 

 

but to prove it wasn't just a wild goose chase, they made sure that no one trained up a friendly gorilla to spin the handles

Quote

28.1 There shall be eleven crew members, unless reduced by accident, who shall all be human beings.

 

 

 

 

 

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another implementation of twin skin - Jules verne attempt trimarans

 

assuming there is a suitable way to reef them, the budget is there to eke out some extra knots from this package.

Maxi Edmond de Rothschild

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36 minutes ago, shebeen said:

assuming there is a suitable way to reef them, the budget is there to eke out some extra knots from this package.

possibly less reefing required as you can use a smaller overall sail plan to get same efficiency and change sail shape to depower...?

If reefing would still be necessary then it will be hard to maintain the degree of sail control/manipulation as per the 75s because you won't be able to have so many fixed controls on the lower sections of the skins... thus lowering the overall efficiency of the twin skins.

It's going to be interesting to see where these end up being implemented - given the possible difficulties with incorporating reefs then perhaps it'll be inshore Maxis and grand-prix classes that go down the path of having multiple mainsail options for different wind conditions. Plenty of cash available in these circuits....

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If we are talking cruising boats and not racers, then perhaps you could have both a ballasted keel and foiling if you used engine assist to get up onto the foils?

 

 

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6 hours ago, NZK said:

It's going to be interesting to see where these end up being implemented - given the possible difficulties with incorporating reefs then perhaps it'll be inshore Maxis and grand-prix classes that go down the path of having multiple mainsail options for different wind conditions. Plenty of cash available in these circuits....

Can the double skin sail be made to work with a non rotating mast?

It appeared that mast rotation was one of the key ways of controlling relative depth in the skins and so without it, there will need to be much greater variance at the clew.

Also, do we know how much of the performance came from the double skins vs having the sail end plated against the deck?  I can see the skins trickling down, but the visibility and ergonomic issues of a deck sweeping main are another thing..... although I think it would make little difference to the "lookout" kept by many boats I race against:)

 

 

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10 hours ago, sfigone said:

Can the double skin sail be made to work with a non rotating mast?

It appeared that mast rotation was one of the key ways of controlling relative depth in the skins and so without it, there will need to be much greater variance at the clew.

Also, do we know how much of the performance came from the double skins vs having the sail end plated against the deck?  I can see the skins trickling down, but the visibility and ergonomic issues of a deck sweeping main are another thing..... although I think it would make little difference to the "lookout" kept by many boats I race against:)

 

 

Good point - rotating mast is required but the hinged spreaders this is achievable without deck spreaders etc so likely still possible for existing boats to upgrade. It'll give the boat builders a good winter project to modify internal structures.

I remember one of the Bar Karate podcasts when they were discussing the twin-skins and the guys from AWS were saying that they considered the 'D' section mast to be fuck-up because once you rotate it away from centreline you create more resistance in the profile shape. They believe a cylindrical mast is more efficient because frontal shape is continuous through rotation...

As I understood it, the main performance gain was the twin-skins themselves - this was hinted at by AM not having a decksweeper on B1 when they launched. Isn't there a Sydney based boat that has a partial sweeper coming back around the vang to the companionway hatch? I could see this being a compromise on more boats...

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  • 1 month later...

No, fastest monohull ever CONCEIVED!

Most monohulls are built by people with resins, foam and cloth, this one has a mommy and daddy! :D

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1 hour ago, Jethrow said:

No, fastest monohull ever CONCEIVED!

Most monohulls are built by people with resins, foam and cloth, this one has a mommy and daddy! :D

The Moomins Photo: Moomins | Moomin, Tove jansson, Cartoon

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On 4/28/2021 at 7:34 PM, Forourselves said:

 

I think I'll wait for the cruising version. ;-)

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A lot of the trickle down discussed here I don't see as really related to the AC75. Improvements in build techniques and materials are always happening anyway, and I don't see any steps that have been the result of the AC75. Rotating rigs have been around for years. Twin skin mainsails are not new. They have been used on windsurfers for decades and have been banned in most classes for decades due to the extra costs and complexity. The appendage arrangement means that these are big dinghies that can always capsize, so safety regulations and basic requirements for cruising boats and insurance stifle that. Also, let's be honest, what is the fun in going for a cruise in the Med or Caribbean at break neck speeds, with the engine running the computers to control everything, knowing that a tiny error in navigation could literally be fatal. And how is the anitfouling going to hang onto the foils? Moor stern to with a deep winged rudder up against the rocks and touch bottom with your delicate foils - no thanks. Like using an F1 car to go to the shops.

I am sure that there are a few monitoring systems and control systems that research funds from AC teams has helped with. But I struggle to recognize that the AC75 class itself has pushed anything on that is going to help the rest of us much more than AC funds help irrespective of class.

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