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An old mate who had two ERA Cobra replicas, one with bulging flares, a big block, and a slab sided small block.  He sold one, and bought a new big block Mustang Convertible, primarily for his wife to drive.  Lots of Horsepower, modern brakes and suspension, the best of the old and the new, right?

I have not driven the new Mustang, but our Son-In-Laws Jeep SUV was in an accident, and the only FREE loaner car, per the insurance was a new Red Camaro.  He hates it, and I can understand why.  I am using it, while we are visiting.  Visibility is horrible, even with the drivers seat as high as I can get it.  You feel every little bump just like my recently traded WRX, but the seats are softer than the Subaru.  It's not even a V-8, I think, 3.6 liter V-6, as best as a I can tell, looking under the bonnet.  I understand why a lot of guys my age, mid-60's buy these.  They are relatively cheap around 30K, and they bring back their memories of their glory days driving the old ones 40 years ago.  

Other than than the fact that this thing takes off like a scalded cat, raped ape, or whatever metaphor you prefer, this car is very  undesirable, to me.  Daughter has a new Jetta with leather and some other upgrades, probably the same 30k price range, and it is so much more pleasurable to drive.  Especially as it's a 6 speed manual.  The Camaro can be shifted manually, with the stick, or paddle snifters, but it is not nearly as functional or satisfying as rowing through the gears, matching the revs, as you downshift to preserve brake wear...

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My favorite "sports car" was a 90 Honda CRX Si, After that, 86 VW GTI... Both of them handled small curvy roads like a dream. Both of them could out accelerate most bigger cars on the hi-way, and both could coast for miles in neutral and get 35-50 MPG if you drove like an old li.....Er.... lady.

 My first "sports car" was a 1968 VW Karman Ghia. Handled the curvy roads at full speed like a poor man's Porsche.... Kinda scary merging on to I-95 at exit 57 with a line of trucks in the RH lane though....

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OH! I forgot!  The first time I really experienced the power of a big ass V-8 was in my grandfather's 70 Buick Skylark.... It had the Cadillac "redball" engine. Merging on to I-95 at exit 57 I stomped on the gas, expecting a little more than I got out of my Karman Ghia. I laid down a patch of rubber about 50' long starting at 50MPH. I was just about terrified. My buddy, in the passenger seat was glued to the seat back.... No one ever wore seat belts back then. My buddy put his on before we got to exit 55....

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48 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:

My favorite "sports car" was a 90 Honda CRX Si, After that, 86 VW GTI... Both of them handled small curvy roads like a dream. Both of them could out accelerate most bigger cars on the hi-way, and both could coast for miles in neutral and get 35-50 MPG if you drove like an old li.....Er.... lady.

 My first "sports car" was a 1968 VW Karman Ghia. Handled the curvy roads at full speed like a poor man's Porsche.... Kinda scary merging on to I-95 at exit 57 with a line of trucks in the RH lane though....

 

I guess you never piloted an Austin rf Morris Mini Cooper S, back in the day?  Would eat them for lunch..... every day..

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42 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

The only thing I see as a true "Modern Muscle Car" is the Dodge Hellcat - especially the Demon.  Absurd power and light (does not come standard with any seat other than one for the driver) results in a sub-10 second quarter mile.

Dodge Hellcat vs Dodge Demon: Costs, Facts, And Performance Overview

 

We are talking about every day, daily drivers.  You are talking another language, altogether....

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17 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

 

We are talking about every day, daily drivers.  You are talking another language, altogether....

I hear "Muscle Car" and I think of raw power.  

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48 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

 

I guess you never piloted an Austin rf Morris Mini Cooper S, back in the day?  Would eat them for lunch..... every day..

Actually, I have driven a Morris Minor, but not a Mini S,  Very impressive for it's day. Did you know that Headington, UK is just outside of "Carfax"? AKA "The Morris Garage" (MG) I lived there. My father drove a Humber Super Snipe, borrowed from his boss. Great car. Like a very small Rolls Royce in our minds.

Humber: Upmarket Britsh cars acquired by Chrysler | Allpar Forums

(The wheel was on the right, not the left)

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3 hours ago, Bus Driver said:

I hear "Muscle Car" and I think of raw power.  

Brute force & ignorance.

Rude & crude.

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

Brute force & ignorance.

Rude & crude.

Absolutely.  Back in the early 1970s I worked with a guy that had a GTO with the big V8.  It handled like a garbage truck in the curves but the sound of that big burbling V8 and the G force when he hit the gas and went in a straight line was incredible.  The old trick of putting a 5 dollar bill on the dashboard in front of the passenger and saying you could keep it if you could grab it.  Hit the gas and the Gs pushed you back in the seat and you couldn't move.  Rude and crude and full of testosterone.  It was fun for about an hour and the chicks liked them but I would never own one.  Especially where I lived with many feet of snowfall every winter, those real wheel drive, overpowered beasts were a nightmare on a snow filled road.

I did have a 1979 Mustang GT with the 5 liter V8.  A small, very light car ( I think it weighed about 1800 lbs.) with more torque than was reasonable, it was easy to burn rubber in 2nd or 3rd gear while moving.  But at least it handled pretty well on a dry road if you were gentle with the gas pedal in the curves.  It was squirrely on wet or snowy roads, I usually started out in 2nd gear, 1st was useless on a slick road. T he back end would just break loose and start to slide no matter how easy you touched the gas pedal while letting out the clutch.  No ABS, rear wheel drive, no weight in the back end, if you can drive something like that in the winter, today's computer controlled all wheel drive, ABS equipped cars are a luxury.  And yet many people still can't drive them on a snow covered street.  

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3 hours ago, Ed Lada said:

Absolutely.  Back in the early 1970s I worked with a guy that had a GTO with the big V8.  It handled like a garbage truck in the curves but the sound of that big burbling V8 and the G force when he hit the gas and went in a straight line was incredible.  The old trick of putting a 5 dollar bill on the dashboard in front of the passenger and saying you could keep it if you could grab it.  Hit the gas and the Gs pushed you back in the seat and you couldn't move.  Rude and crude and full of testosterone.  It was fun for about an hour and the chicks liked them but I would never own one.  Especially where I lived with many feet of snowfall every winter, those real wheel drive, overpowered beasts were a nightmare on a snow filled road.

I did have a 1979 Mustang GT with the 5 liter V8.  A small, very light car ( I think it weighed about 1800 lbs.) with more torque than was reasonable, it was easy to burn rubber in 2nd or 3rd gear while moving.  But at least it handled pretty well on a dry road if you were gentle with the gas pedal in the curves.  It was squirrely on wet or snowy roads, I usually started out in 2nd gear, 1st was useless on a slick road. T he back end would just break loose and start to slide no matter how easy you touched the gas pedal while letting out the clutch.  No ABS, rear wheel drive, no weight in the back end, if you can drive something like that in the winter, today's computer controlled all wheel drive, ABS equipped cars are a luxury.  And yet many people still can't drive them on a snow covered street.  

Gas, Tires, and Oil.

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Chevy SS = Holden Commodore.  They discontinued the SS when GM shut down the Holden brand entirely.

 

It’s getting a bit repetitive now, but I ran across a YouTube video the other day where some auto journalists were pitting a made-for-the-drag-strip (by the factory) Mustang and a Tesla model Y grocery-getter (dual motor version, mind you).  The Stang, even with launch control, traction control and every other go-fast driver assist available, just couldn’t handle all the power available and was smoked over and over again by the Tesla.  I appreciate large displacement engines and the glorious sounds they make.  I also appreciate the skill required to drive a sports car well, be it a dragster or track car (I still stubbornly cling to a manual transmission, if only to give my hands and brain something to do while driving).  However, if your car has so much power that a bunch of robots are needed as the only possible way to control it, one might as well go full robot and drive the electric car.  I did get a ride in an early Tesla before they became common... It was a very different experience.  It was so absurdly capable that you just giggle a lot.  I also have access to a Ferrari, so.....

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1 hour ago, NaClH20 said:

 I also have access to a Ferrari, so.....

 

Inquiring minds wish to know more, S'il vous plait?   I once drove a famous OLD Ferarri race car from the 40's or 50's,  from the owners Palm Beach collection to a nearby lot, so some French car magazine guys could photograph it, for the magazine.  It was known as the "one eyed bastard", as it had a center mounted headlight.  It was like driving a farm tractor.

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13 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

 

Inquiring minds wish to know more, S'il vous plait?   I once drove a famous OLD Ferarri race car from the 40's or 50's,  from the owners Palm Beach collection to a nearby lot, so some French car magazine guys could photograph it, for the magazine.  It was known as the "one eyed bastard", as it had a center mounted headlight.  It was like driving a farm tractor.

Image result for ferrari tractor | Oude tractoren, Klassieke auto's, Tractor

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I love watching classic car races, especially Grand Prix cars from the 20s and 30s.  With the skinny tires, exposed drive chains, terrible brakes, and touchy engines, they must be terrifying to drive fast.  I’d love to drive one, once.  Anyway, my uncle has a 2000 Ferrari 360 that he drives often and, as the nearest official mechanic is 4 hours away, does all the work on.  There are no tracks around here to drive it on, no highways, and back roads can be questionable, so it has as much performance as I’d like.  Actually beyond my skills, really.  He also has a ‘99 550 (gated!) that he got by “accident”.  After a thorough engine tear-down and rebuild, it persisted with a stubborn computer issue that refused connection with a diagnostic tool to clear the check engine light.  It’s been at an independent mechanics shop as a back burner project for almost a year now, but looking forward to some V12 action some time, maybe!

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6 hours ago, Ed Lada said:

I did have a 1979 Mustang GT with the 5 liter V8.  A small, very light car ( I think it weighed about 1800 lbs.) with more torque than was reasonable, it was easy to burn rubber in 2nd or 3rd gear while moving.  But at least it handled pretty well on a dry road if you were gentle with the gas pedal in the curves.  It was squirrely on wet or snowy roads, I usually started out in 2nd gear, 1st was useless on a slick road. T he back end would just break loose and start to slide no matter how easy you touched the gas pedal while letting out the clutch.  No ABS, rear wheel drive, no weight in the back end, if you can drive something like that in the winter, today's computer controlled all wheel drive, ABS equipped cars are a luxury.  And yet many people still can't drive them on a snow covered street.  

You're only off by 1000 lbs - it weighed 2,811 lbs.    1800 lbs is less than the original (NA) Miata.....     The 2021 Mustang GT weighs 3705 lbs - all those cupholders really add weight.

Some of the old muscle cars weren't terrible in the snow - you could get them with a limited slip differential.   And weight in the rear could be achieved with a few bags of heavy stuff.

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1 hour ago, slap said:

You're only off by 1000 lbs - it weighed 2,811 lbs.    1800 lbs is less than the original (NA) Miata.....     The 2021 Mustang GT weighs 3705 lbs - all those cupholders really add weight.

It's incredible how heavy cars have become. I learned to drive in a '65 Impala convertible - a behemoth that wouldn't have looked odd with a big H in a circle on the hood - it weighed 3800. My current Jag XJR which is a considerably smaller car weighs 4400.

When I bought my Range Rover I was stunned to discover it weighs well over 6000 - more than 3 tons for a truck little bigger than the original Bronco which weighed 1/2 that.

 

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19 hours ago, billy backstay said:

An old mate who had two ERA Cobra replicas, one with bulging flares, a big block, and a slab sided small block.  He sold one, and bought a new big block Mustang Convertible, primarily for his wife to drive.  Lots of Horsepower, modern brakes and suspension, the best of the old and the new, right?

I have not driven the new Mustang, but our Son-In-Laws Jeep SUV was in an accident, and the only FREE loaner car, per the insurance was a new Red Camaro.  He hates it, and I can understand why.  I am using it, while we are visiting.  Visibility is horrible, even with the drivers seat as high as I can get it.  You feel every little bump just like my recently traded WRX, but the seats are softer than the Subaru.  It's not even a V-8, I think, 3.6 liter V-6, as best as a I can tell, looking under the bonnet.  I understand why a lot of guys my age, mid-60's buy these.  They are relatively cheap around 30K, and they bring back their memories of their glory days driving the old ones 40 years ago.  

Other than than the fact that this thing takes off like a scalded cat, raped ape, or whatever metaphor you prefer, this car is very  undesirable, to me.  Daughter has a new Jetta with leather and some other upgrades, probably the same 30k price range, and it is so much more pleasurable to drive.  Especially as it's a 6 speed manual.  The Camaro can be shifted manually, with the stick, or paddle snifters, but it is not nearly as functional or satisfying as rowing through the gears, matching the revs, as you downshift to preserve brake wear...

The Camaro V6 0-60 is 5.2.

My AWD twin turbo Sport Edge, that can hold 5 people comfortably + 3 dogs in the back, can do 0-60 in 5.9.  It rides fantastically, corners quite well, and goes in the snow because.... AWD.  It has great visibility, heated / cool seats, lane keeping, adaptive cruise, etc.  And costs in the neighborhood of a camaro.

Buying a 'cheap' performance car nowadays is a waste.

The stock V8 versions of the Mustang and Camaro are down around 4 seconds.  Now that sounds fun.  But I sure wish they'd get on board with AWD.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Big Bob said:

Here is my Chevy SS 2017 (Holden Commodore)  and 1996 Impala SS. 

P1010963.JPG

Your garage is too clean.

Get a 1/2 finished boat in there.

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4 hours ago, slap said:

You're only off by 1000 lbs - it weighed 2,811 lbs.    1800 lbs is less than the original (NA) Miata.....     The 2021 Mustang GT weighs 3705 lbs - all those cupholders really add weight.

Some of the old muscle cars weren't terrible in the snow - you could get them with a limited slip differential.   And weight in the rear could be achieved with a few bags of heavy stuff.

Hey, I'm getting old, I knew it had a 1 and an 8.

The '79 was the first year besides that godawful Mustang 2, that they tried to go back to the original pony car, small, sporty and fun.  After the original they kept putting on weight like the bloated Mach 1 or whatever those things were.  So of course as time goes on they keep making them bigger again.  In addition people today are a lot bigger (heavier and wider) then they were in 1979.  And those damned cup holders have to be bigger to hold those half gallon $1.00 fountain drinks that all of the stores where the gas pumps are sell.  It all adds up.   And today people value comfort above all.  Remember when sports cars were about the driving experience and not about comfort?  If you're old enough that is.  

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2 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

When I bought my Range Rover I was stunned to discover it weighs well over 6000 - more than 3 tons

A Range Rover is not a truck, and even by todays standards it's still heavy.  But they sure ride smooth!

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1 minute ago, Ed Lada said:

A Range Rover is not a truck,

What would you call it?

It sure ain't a car.

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17 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

What would you call it?

It sure ain't a car.

It a fucking SUV!  My friend has one.  He went from a Volvo SUV, to a Mercedes SUV and now the RR.  I joke and tell him I can put my little Mitsubishi 4x4 in the rear of the Rover to use for a tender if parking is tight in town.  I think all 4 tires and rims on his SUV weigh close to what my little toy weighs in total (2,900 lbs).  I've never seen normal tires that big.  Of course the huge diesel twin turbo motor probably does weigh what my Mitsubishi weighs.  At the price of diesel in Europe it costs around $300 dollars to fill the damn thing up and you can see the fuel needle go moving down driving at autobahn speeds.  I think bricks have better aerodynamics than that beast.  I'll bet the 'sport' model with the lower roof that tapers down toward rear probably gets maybe 3 miles per gallon better fuel economy.  :lol:

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I'll dispute the "utility" part of calling it an SUV. It would be great for skiers or scuba divers but it sucks for sailors.

My old minivan was 3 times as utilitarian as the Rover. Trying to carry materials for my boat project is a pain in the ass - the fucking back seats don't even fold flat. Takes two trips just to take the sails home.

... but my wife likes it.

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15 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

I'll dispute the "utility" part of calling it an SUV. It would be great for skiers or scuba divers but it sucks for sailors.

My old minivan was 3 times as utilitarian as the Rover. Trying to carry materials for my boat project is a pain in the ass - the fucking back seats don't even fold flat. Takes two trips just to take the sails home.

... but my wife likes it.

Yeah, for something that is almost as big as an 18 wheeler, it really doesn't have a lot of cargo room.  By the time we load a couple of cases of old Bordeaux in the back, there's hardly any room for the charcuterie and the French and Italian cheeses FFS.  I hate when we bruise the Camembert!   But my friend is just a few inches shorter than I am, and we sure do like all that room in the front seats, and passengers can still sit behind me as long as they aren't too tall, something that doesn't happen in to many other vehicles.  

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Hey, when I go to the boat with all the stuff: sail bags, extra tools, dive gear to work on the bottom, my clothes, my food for a few days, the wife's stuff...I put all this crap in my '66 VW van.  Then I put in my '84 Pinarello road bike, and head to the boat.  Now it takes me a while at 55 mph and I stay off the horrible SoCal freeways, but I don't push it...stopping this beast takes about a half a mile.  But if I want to look cool, I drive my PU truck.  My wife drives a Lexus...good god.

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17 minutes ago, foamy1946 said:

Hey, when I go to the boat with all the stuff: sail bags, extra tools, dive gear to work on the bottom, my clothes, my food for a few days, the wife's stuff...I put all this crap in my '66 VW van.  Then I put in my '84 Pinarello road bike, and head to the boat. 

Yeah, but you have to drive an old air cooled VW van.

I like to enjoy my driving, not regard it as cruel & unusual punishment.

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18 hours ago, Ed Lada said:

 No ABS, rear wheel drive, no weight in the back end, if you can drive something like that in the winter, today's computer controlled all wheel drive, ABS equipped cars are a luxury.  And yet many people still can't drive them on a snow covered street.  

Folks with all wheel drive and ABS are still subject to the laws of physics - the amount of grip between tyre and road (or gravel, or snow). We have a steepish drive up to our ski mountain, and regularly see folks in new SUVs slid off the side, particularly going down hill. A few years ago I ended up leaving a guy in a new BMW X5 in the ditch in disgust. We'd already towed him back onto the road once, and suggested he put chains on his tyres. (It is a legal requirement to carry them to the ski resorts where I live). But he insisted that the X5 had such an advanced traction control system that he didn't need them. He argued that his X5 in low profile summer tyres was just as capable as our 10 YO mitubishi 4wd with locked diffs and chunky mud terrain tyres. I even offered to help him fit them.

He made it about 150m before sliding off again.

But if the road is only wet, my lotus 7 style sports car (a PRB) with effectively cut slicks (Yoko AO50s) has much more grip than the 4wd, so is actually easier to drive in the wet even without a hint of electronic aids. The lugged tyres in the 4wd just don't have enough surface area, and are too hard to get up to temp. Although it has an AWD mode, I prefer to leave it in RWD in the wet so a get some feedback on how slippery the road is before needing to brake hard.

Our 2017 mustang gt is somewhere in the middle. Better than the 4wd on wet roads, but very easy to get the rear sliding, even without a bootful of throttle. Quite good under brakes though at least. For a 'modern muscle car' it's actually much better at going around corners and stopping than it's ancestors. Costs 50 cents in tyres for every dollar spent on fuel though.

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5 hours ago, Se7en said:

 

Folks with all wheel drive and ABS are still subject to the laws of physics - the amount of grip between tyre and road (or gravel, or snow). We have a steepish drive up to our ski mountain, and regularly see folks in new SUVs slid off the side, particularly going down hill. A few years ago I ended up leaving a guy in a new BMW X5 in the ditch in disgust. We'd already towed him back onto the road once, and suggested he put chains on his tyres. (It is a legal requirement to carry them to the ski resorts where I live). But he insisted that the X5 had such an advanced traction control system that he didn't need them. He argued that his X5 in low profile summer tyres was just as capable as our 10 YO mitubishi 4wd with locked diffs and chunky mud terrain tyres. I even offered to help him fit them.

He made it about 150m before sliding off again.

But if the road is only wet, my lotus 7 style sports car (a PRB) with effectively cut slicks (Yoko AO50s) has much more grip than the 4wd, so is actually easier to drive in the wet even without a hint of electronic aids. The lugged tyres in the 4wd just don't have enough surface area, and are too hard to get up to temp. Although it has an AWD mode, I prefer to leave it in RWD in the wet so a get some feedback on how slippery the road is before needing to brake hard.

Our 2017 mustang gt is somewhere in the middle. Better than the 4wd on wet roads, but very easy to get the rear sliding, even without a bootful of throttle. Quite good under brakes though at least. For a 'modern muscle car' it's actually much better at going around corners and stopping than it's ancestors. Costs 50 cents in tyres for every dollar spent on fuel though.

Where I grew on the shores of Lake Erie, the average winter total snowfall was between 8 and 12 feet, and even more a few miles south of the lake.  When I was living there, there were no all wheel drive, traction control and ABS equipped cars, just 4x4s.  You had to pump the brakes to come to a stop an slick roads.  Nowadays if you use some common sense, it's much easier to drive in those conditions with all of the conveniences.  To me, the biggest advantage of ABS is at least you slide in a straight line when the brakes are pumping far faster than my foot could ever pump them.  Many people seem to think that 4 WD or all wheel drive makes them bullet proof on icy snowy roads, especially when it comes to stopping.  Some of them never seem to learn that they aren't.  Like you, when I am out in the winter I like to test the traction conditions when I start driving so I know what to expect.  I've been driving for almost 50 years and the only accident I've ever had was sliding off an icy road into a snow bank in my 1979 Mustang GT when the rear end broke loose because I was being stupid.  That was 30 years ago.  Unlike a lot of drivers, I take the task very seriously.  A number of years ago I was driving on the autobahn on a dry road in a newish Honda Accord and as I was coming around a bend in the left lane at about 110 mph, a car pulled out to pass a little bit in front of me.  I hit the brakes hard and actually activated the ABS on a dry road.  That's pretty hard to do!  Nothing bad happened but it got my heart racing.

We don't get a lot of snow where I live now and I have pretty normal M/S tires on my 20 year old Mitsubishi 4x4 because I primarily drive it on normal roads and I don't want the loss of road contact with the heavily lugged off road tires.  If I lock it in 4WD low when I'm out on a muddy forest road, I have no trouble with traction.  One day I purposely buried it 2 WD in loose sand up to the axle just to test it out. When I shifted the lever to low lock, I drove right out like I was on a normal road.  Our soil here is mostly sand so even if it's muddy, the mud isn't terribly gooey.  We are at least 200 miles from any mountains.  

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Grew up near the end of lake ontario.  I learned the hard way that road conditions and stopping distances can change drastically and I learned to feel the tire spins.  Even on a modern car with traction control and abs you can feel when one of the drive tires spins a bit more. And then back off 5mph.  Gets you there as fast as is safe for your vehicle.

 

4 wheel.drive lifted trucks always end up in a ditch after a snow storm.  To much power not enough brains.

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26 minutes ago, peragrin said:

Grew up near the end of lake ontario.  I learned the hard way that road conditions and stopping distances can change drastically and I learned to feel the tire spins.  Even on a modern car with traction control and abs you can feel when one of the drive tires spins a bit more. And then back off 5mph.  Gets you there as fast as is safe for your vehicle.

 

4 wheel.drive lifted trucks always end up in a ditch after a snow storm.  To much power not enough brains.

Spot on!

Which end of the lake?

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18 minutes ago, Ed Lada said:

Spot on!

Which end of the lake?

Oswego, actually just past Fulton but most don't know where Fulton is and most sailors know Oswego.

 

I never thought I would miss the giant snow storms.  Put I get 2-3 " inches in New Hampshire and  Massachusetts panic mode sets in.  It's like they never actually lived in New England their entire lives.

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1 hour ago, peragrin said:

Oswego, actually just past Fulton but most don't know where Fulton is and most sailors know Oswego.

 

I never thought I would miss the giant snow storms.  Put I get 2-3 " inches in New Hampshire and  Massachusetts panic mode sets in.  It's like they never actually lived in New England their entire lives.

I know where Oswego is!  That's a bit of a distance from Erie.

I miss the lake terribly, I grew up a couple of blocks from it.  In the summer I would collect driftwood and stash it behind a good sized wall of stones washed up by the big waves, several feet in front of a cliff.  Then in the winter, often in the middle of a snow storm, I would bundle up and go to the lake. I would brush the snow off of my wood pile and in a few minutes i had a nice hot fire going and I would be all toasty and warm in my naturally sheltered spot.  

We don't get much snow where I live in Poland and I really don't miss it.  I had enough of it growing up.  Now that I'm old, I don't need the hassle of dealing with large amounts of snow and extreme cold.  The coldest it get here is in the teens and that's never for long.  That's fine with me.  

One time back home I was working at a hospital in town about 8 miles form my house back around 1981. I had an old 6cyl Olds Cutlass.  We had a storm overnight, got over 2 feet of snow.  I had to be at work at 6 a.m.  I got up early, left the house about 5:15.  They hadn't plowed the roads and when I got out of the driveway and got moving on the road, I just plowed thorough the deep snow and only slowed down at the red lights at the intersections, I didn't dare stop because I knew I would get stuck. It's not like there was any traffic.  I got to work at about 5:55  

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17 hours ago, Ed Lada said:

A Range Rover is not a truck, and even by todays standards it's still heavy.  But they sure ride smooth!

 

They must have improved quite a bit from decades ago, when they first became popular.  My partner at the time was considering one, and it rode like a truck, far from smooth! 

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On 3/23/2021 at 6:41 PM, Bus Driver said:

The only thing I see as a true "Modern Muscle Car" is the Dodge Hellcat - especially the Demon.  Absurd power and light (does not come standard with any seat other than one for the driver) results in a sub-10 second quarter mile.

Dodge Hellcat vs Dodge Demon: Costs, Facts, And Performance Overview

This happened a couple years ago at our little regional airport. Car landed about 650 feet beyond the airstrip.

 

https://www.9news.com/article/news/two-men-in-their-70s-dead-after-airport-runway-test-drive-crash/73-473212677

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On 3/23/2021 at 8:41 PM, Bus Driver said:

The only thing I see as a true "Modern Muscle Car" is the Dodge Hellcat - especially the Demon.  Absurd power and light (does not come standard with any seat other than one for the driver) results in a sub-10 second quarter mile.

Dodge Hellcat vs Dodge Demon: Costs, Facts, And Performance Overview

Naw, add the Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 to that.  Pretty freakin fast, and about $20k less than the Demon.  If the dodge is a Modern Muscle Car, then they GT500 is the "bargain" version.  And the Shelby will beat the shit out of the Demon on a track.

The Shelby also isn't stripped out like the Demon is.

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6 hours ago, peragrin said:

Grew up near the end of lake ontario.  I learned the hard way that road conditions and stopping distances can change drastically and I learned to feel the tire spins.  Even on a modern car with traction control and abs you can feel when one of the drive tires spins a bit more. And then back off 5mph.  Gets you there as fast as is safe for your vehicle.

 

4 wheel.drive lifted trucks always end up in a ditch after a snow storm.  To much power not enough brains.

It seems that many people with 4 wheel drive think they're invincible in the snow - they don't understand that all vehicles have 4 wheel brakes.

Around here even a skiff of snow causes mass disaster on the roads - few people are equipped for it or have the skills to deal with it.

Most popular vehicle to invert in the ditch in my area is a Jeep.

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2 hours ago, billy backstay said:

 

They must have improved quite a bit from decades ago, when they first became popular.  My partner at the time was considering one, and it rode like a truck, far from smooth! 

The well equipped models are well north of $100,000.  These things are not the Range Rovers of the old days.  The leather seats have tiny holes and are air conditioned and the headliner is leather FFS.  It has 8 exterior cameras, you can literally drive with the windows blanked out, the cameras cover every possible bit that you could see and more that you can't, even by using mirrors.  It has an in dash DVD player.  Nothing new there but when you turn the engine on the screen magically moves the pixels so you can't see it from the driver seat so you aren't distracted.  The twin turbo diesel gets the 3 ton monster going in a hurry. And on and on.  I wouldn't pay that much for a car, you can get a nice new 1,400 sq ft house in Poland for what the top priced model costs.

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8 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

It seems that many people with 4 wheel drive think they're invincible in the snow - they don't understand that all vehicles have 4 wheel brakes.

Around here even a skiff of snow causes mass disaster on the roads - few people are equipped for it or have the skills to deal with it.

Most popular vehicle to invert in the ditch in my area is a Jeep.

Same thing everywhere.  They think 4 WD exempts them from the laws of physics.  Especially the one about objects in motion tending to want to  stay that way.

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3 hours ago, Ed Lada said:

The well equipped models are well north of $100,000.  These things are not the Range Rovers of the old days.  The leather seats have tiny holes and are air conditioned and the headliner is leather FFS.  It has 8 exterior cameras, you can literally drive with the windows blanked out, the cameras cover every possible bit that you could see and more that you can't, even by using mirrors.  It has an in dash DVD player.  Nothing new there but when you turn the engine on the screen magically moves the pixels so you can't see it from the driver seat so you aren't distracted.  The twin turbo diesel gets the 3 ton monster going in a hurry. And on and on.  I wouldn't pay that much for a car, you can get a nice new 1,400 sq ft house in Poland for what the top priced model costs.

I bought one used with 90K clicks on it for a little more than 1/2 what the first owner spent on the sales tax.

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11 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

I bought one used with 90K clicks on it for a little more than 1/2 what the first owner spent on the sales tax.

My friend bought his 3 years old with low mileage for half of the new price.  Apparently some Bavarian farmer bought 3 of them every few years for himself, his wife and his daughter.  Must be good money in farming in Bavaria!

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On 3/25/2021 at 11:36 AM, SloopJonB said:

It seems that many people with 4 wheel drive think they're invincible in the snow - they don't understand that all vehicles have 4 wheel brakes.

Around here even a skiff of snow causes mass disaster on the roads - few people are equipped for it or have the skills to deal with it.

Most popular vehicle to invert in the ditch in my area is a Jeep.

Back in my Audi driving days I had a conversation with the Service Manager at a Porsche/Audi dealership.  Winter time and the service bays were filled with Audi Quattros.  He said that you guys think that because these things go better in ice and snow you assume incorrectly that they also stop better.

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I really miss my Jeep and my Rover, and for a number of years was quite active in the local off-roading community for a number of years.  It is true that 4wdrive <> 4w-stop.  That's a surprisingly tough concept to pitch to the general world.

I think of muscle cars as straight line smoke shows, something that has never been my style.  The "sports cars" from my youth that I got some quality seat time in were a '84 GTI and an '85 E30 BMW.  I got my son a Jetta VR6 a few years ago, but he decided he didn't like the stickshift and bought himself a GM 4cyl something-or-other that I won't be caught dead in.  sigh.

As I continue to search for the right BMW M3 as a toy, my stand in 135i, which the previous owner breathed on, makes me smile for about 2 hours a day.  It's kinda quick...and still quite comfy.

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Having driven the Hellcat with ~700hp.  I have to say it's a ton of fun.  Being able to press the pedal at 65 mph and spin the tires is fun, if not addicting.  However this and most other situations are made safe by the electronics that control the engine and the brakes and keep you from killing yourself and others. Technology has made this much power safe for the average guy/gal.  It has a screen showing hp.  Very few people ever see that rise above 500 hp because the electronics step in to keep things relatively safe. You can disable them with track mode or some similar name, but the average guy/gal shouldn't. I don't begrudge people the fun of that raw power and I'm glad electronics have advanced to the point that people can enjoy it relatively safely.  Would I spend the money for it?  Probably not, but I don't deny it's fun as hell. Just not where I choose to put the little disposable income I have.

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8 hours ago, PurpleOnion said:

Having driven the Hellcat with ~700hp.  I have to say it's a ton of fun.  Being able to press the pedal at 65 mph and spin the tires is fun, if not addicting.  However this and most other situations are made safe by the electronics that control the engine and the brakes and keep you from killing yourself and others. Technology has made this much power safe for the average guy/gal.  It has a screen showing hp.  Very few people ever see that rise above 500 hp because the electronics step in to keep things relatively safe. You can disable them with track mode or some similar name, but the average guy/gal shouldn't. I don't begrudge people the fun of that raw power and I'm glad electronics have advanced to the point that people can enjoy it relatively safely.  Would I spend the money for it?  Probably not, but I don't deny it's fun as hell. Just not where I choose to put the little disposable income I have.

I'm a bit of a snob I guess.  To me making these high powered driving machines and then filling them up with all of these electronic devices that keep you from killing yourself is not a good thing.  If you are going to drive a car with 600  or 700 hp, then goddammit you better know something about handling that car without some electronic brain saving you from yourself.  These cars shouldn't be for everybody. 

It's the same problem with low priced airfares.  Back in the day it cost $600.00 (in 1970 $s that's $4,200 in todays $s) for a R/T economy ticket from the US to Europe.  By god if you wanted to go to the Louvre and gawk at the Mona Lisa, you had to have a real interest in art to shell out that kind of money.  Nowadays every Tom, Dick, and Harriet are coming to Europe and all over the world, rushing from site to site, snapping selfies to put on social media and rushing off to the next place without really seeing or appreciating anything and just fucking everything up. 

Not everything should be for everybody.  People today are insecure and live hollow empty lives because everything is the same. There is no thrill in the anticipation, the planning, the saving for that trip or toy of a lifetime.  Now anybody with $70,000 or so can climb Mount Everest, no experience necessary.  Amazing experiences are valuable because they are hard to obtain.  We now live in a flat world where almost anybody can have almost anything, or a cheap copy, and nothing is special anymore.  So people get depressed and keep looking for something they will never find, because essentially they have no idea what they're looking for.  The dumb fucks forget to look in the obvious place.  It's in them, not is some exotic place or thing.  The human race is fucked, most of them have missed the purpose and point of life.  

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On 3/27/2021 at 12:28 AM, Que said:

As I continue to search for the right BMW M3 as a toy, my stand in 135i, which the previous owner breathed on, makes me smile for about 2 hours a day.  It's kinda quick...and still quite comfy.

 

 I wasn't really looking for a new used car, but was tiring of the harsh ride of my '17 WRX, and I had put 68,000 miles on it in 3 years, so time to move on.  I saw an ad for a BMW 430i with x-drive and bought it the next day. Only had 13,500 miles on it, and the hardtop convertible coupe tickled my fancy.   Happy so far with it!  The 4 cylinder 2 liter, 24 valve, twin screw turbo puts out 248 HP, but can get over 30 MPG, if you keep your foot off the loud pedal.  Missus BB was happily surprised when we drove to a friends house last night with the top down, windows up, and the windscreen behind the front seats.  Her hair did not blow around at all, much to her surprise!  In hindsight, I would probably prefer the 2 series, same model, as I like smaller cars, but the difference is really not much at all. Fully loaded with options, and paid way less than when it was new in 2017.  It was an off lease, low mileage car, that was obviously never garaged, because the dealer had the paintless dent repair guy remove a half dozen or more dings and dents in the roof, hood and trunk lid.  Also, the wiper blades were shot from baking in the sun, despite the low miles.  

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7 hours ago, Ed Lada said:

I'm a bit of a snob I guess.  To me making these high powered driving machines and then filling them up with all of these electronic devices that keep you from killing yourself is not a good thing.  If you are going to drive a car with 600  or 700 hp, then goddammit you better know something about handling that car without some electronic brain saving you from yourself.  These cars shouldn't be for everybody. 

It's the same problem with low priced airfares.  Back in the day it cost $600.00 (in 1970 $s that's $4,200 in todays $s) for a R/T economy ticket from the US to Europe.  By god if you wanted to go to the Louvre and gawk at the Mona Lisa, you had to have a real interest in art to shell out that kind of money.  Nowadays every Tom, Dick, and Harriet are coming to Europe and all over the world, rushing from site to site, snapping selfies to put on social media and rushing off to the next place without really seeing or appreciating anything and just fucking everything up. 

Not everything should be for everybody.  People today are insecure and live hollow empty lives because everything is the same. There is no thrill in the anticipation, the planning, the saving for that trip or toy of a lifetime.  Now anybody with $70,000 or so can climb Mount Everest, no experience necessary.  Amazing experiences are valuable because they are hard to obtain.  We now live in a flat world where almost anybody can have almost anything, or a cheap copy, and nothing is special anymore.  So people get depressed and keep looking for something they will never find, because essentially they have no idea what they're looking for.  The dumb fucks forget to look in the obvious place.  It's in them, not is some exotic place or thing.  The human race is fucked, most of them have missed the purpose and point of life.  

Participation trophies

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4 hours ago, billy backstay said:

 

 I wasn't really looking for a new used car, but was tiring of the harsh ride of my '17 WRX, and I had put 68,000 miles on it in 3 years, so time to move on.  I saw an ad for a BMW 430i with x-drive and bought it the next day. Only had 13,500 miles on it, and the hardtop convertible coupe tickled my fancy.   Happy so far with it!  The 4 cylinder 2 liter, 24 valve, twin screw turbo puts out 248 HP, but can get over 30 MPG, if you keep your foot off the loud pedal.  Missus BB was happily surprised when we drove to a friends house last night with the top down, windows up, and the windscreen behind the front seats.  Her hair did not blow around at all, much to her surprise!  In hindsight, I would probably prefer the 2 series, same model, as I like smaller cars, but the difference is really not much at all. Fully loaded with options, and paid way less than when it was new in 2017.  It was an off lease, low mileage car, that was obviously never garaged, because the dealer had the paintless dent repair guy remove a half dozen or more dings and dents in the roof, hood and trunk lid.  Also, the wiper blades were shot from baking in the sun, despite the low miles.  

Start saving now for the repairs to come.

I was told by an insider years ago to never own a BMW or Benz off lease or out of warranty.

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19 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Start saving now for the repairs to come.

I was told by an insider years ago to never own a BMW or Benz off lease or out of warranty.

 

CPO warranty and all services covered for the life of the loan which is 6 years, unless I pay it off earlier.  Our LLC is only paying a couple hundred more a month than the WRX cost, and it's a business expense, so paid with pre-tax dollars, that have not already had one third ripped off by the tax man....  And the Stealership will pick up, and deliver, from my home or workplace, for any services, leaving a loaner with me, until they return it.  So I don't have to hassle with bringing the car there, and picking up a loaner.  Well worth the additional monthly fee, for that kind of premium service.....  I have owned many Bimmers and several Mercedes Benz. MB 300D turbo diesel, years ago was no problems ever. The 2nd Benz was an AMG convertible, and when the trans started acting wonky, I sold it right quick...The Bimmers have all been great, no serious problems. Our '04 X3 has 220k miles, and running strong.  The A/C doesn't work and the labor is a grand to fix, but Missus BB doesn't care about no A/C, and I simply don't drive it, when A/C is required.

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20 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Start saving now for the repairs to come.

I was told by an insider years ago to never own a BMW or Benz off lease or out of warranty.

 

I think any of the German cars, with all the modern electronics, produce a lemon every once in a while.  Missus BB's BFF in Boston bought a new Audi A4, and it spent more time in the shop, than in her garage, the first year, with electronic gremlins.  She made them buy it back and got a Jetta, which is still running great now, many years later.

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45 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Start saving now for the repairs to come.

I was told by an insider years ago to never own a BMW or Benz off lease or out of warranty.

My son worked as a BMW tech for many years (now working for Volvo dealer). We were considering the purchase of a two year old, off-lease X3. He said only get it with the dealer warranty which was CA$6000 more than the advertised price. Got a new, loaded turbo Kia Sportage which was the same price as the Beemer without the extra warranty costs. Really good car except the mileage is mediocre. Not one of the Kias subject to the serious engine recall issues.

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2 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Start saving now for the repairs to come.

I was told by an insider years ago to never own a BMW or Benz off lease or out of warranty.

German cars drive nicely, they handle well, many of them go fast comfortably but they are often ugly and are designed by and for German engineers, not for consumers.  The are needlessly complicated and overly expensive to buy and repair just to stroke their Teutonic engineer egos. 

And then there's always the old cactus joke... 

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45 minutes ago, Ed Lada said:

I call them 'checklist tourists'.

If it's Tuesday this must be Belgium.

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12 hours ago, Ed Lada said:

I'm a bit of a snob I guess.  To me making these high powered driving machines and then filling them up with all of these electronic devices that keep you from killing yourself is not a good thing.  If you are going to drive a car with 600  or 700 hp, then goddammit you better know something about handling that car without some electronic brain saving you from yourself.  These cars shouldn't be for everybody. 

It's the same problem with low priced airfares.  Back in the day it cost $600.00 (in 1970 $s that's $4,200 in todays $s) for a R/T economy ticket from the US to Europe.  By god if you wanted to go to the Louvre and gawk at the Mona Lisa, you had to have a real interest in art to shell out that kind of money.  Nowadays every Tom, Dick, and Harriet are coming to Europe and all over the world, rushing from site to site, snapping selfies to put on social media and rushing off to the next place without really seeing or appreciating anything and just fucking everything up. 

Not everything should be for everybody.  People today are insecure and live hollow empty lives because everything is the same. There is no thrill in the anticipation, the planning, the saving for that trip or toy of a lifetime.  Now anybody with $70,000 or so can climb Mount Everest, no experience necessary.  Amazing experiences are valuable because they are hard to obtain.  We now live in a flat world where almost anybody can have almost anything, or a cheap copy, and nothing is special anymore.  So people get depressed and keep looking for something they will never find, because essentially they have no idea what they're looking for.  The dumb fucks forget to look in the obvious place.  It's in them, not is some exotic place or thing.  The human race is fucked, most of them have missed the purpose and point of life.  

...and in the pre all technology days you had a connection to your muscle car/ hot rod. It is fun to snap a down shift to get into the power band of the cam and valve train you selected rather than the computer select a lift and overlap for the situation.

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13 hours ago, Ed Lada said:

The dumb fucks forget to look in the obvious place.  It's in them, not is some exotic place or thing.  The human race is fucked, most of them have missed the purpose and point of life.  

 

Most people are focused on the destination, when it's the journey that makes a life well lived, not the destination...

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12 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

 

Most people are focused on the destination, when it's the journey that makes a life well lived, not the destination...

Which is why so many people spend $140k or more and three weeks of their lives to sail to Hawaii.....when you can fly there in like 5.5 hours, and for less than a dinner for 4 at the Olive f'ng Garden.....:lol:

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8 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Start saving now for the repairs to come.

I was told by an insider years ago to never own a BMW or Benz off lease or out of warranty.

Before I stopped wasting $$$$ on cars I had 4 Audis and 5 Porsches.  The Porsches were damn near bulletproof but even routine maintenance was brutally expensive.  The Audis were maintenance nightmares.  To this day I would not own an Audi and I prefer to waste my money on things other than cars, so there will be no 6th Porsche.

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DEFINITELY NOT A MUSCLE CAR!

Have to put that out there or deal with some obnoxious replies. Probably will anyway.....

But three years ago I bought a 4 cyl Mustang with a turbo and 6 speed manual. It's an absolute blast to drive and will get 30mpg at 80. I don't need anything more than that

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26 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

I'm guessing it's not good in snow.

That's even lower on my checklist of 100 things to not give a shit about than how many men have committed suicide within 24 hours of fuking Amy Shumer. This is the epitome of a So Cal beach cruiser....and it's near flawless in appearance. Whoever designed the body probably gave the employees at Pininfarina multiple heart-gasms.....

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12 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Start saving now for the repairs to come.

I was told by an insider years ago to never own a BMW or Benz off lease or out of warranty.

Says the guy who drives a Rover?!?  Give your head a shake!  Benz, yeah -- I hear you, but I find I only have to remember to "Bring My Wallet" if I take the little cars to have someone else to do the work.

When I owned my Rorver, I claimed that I kept the German cars around so I had a reliable way to get to the parts store.  Of course, then I bought a Jetta....and dedicated a whole shed in my back yard to Jetta spares...or Jetta Ejecta as I took to calling them. 

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4 hours ago, jerseyguy said:

Before I stopped wasting $$$$ on cars I had 4 Audis and 5 Porsches.  The Porsches were damn near bulletproof but even routine maintenance was brutally expensive.  The Audis were maintenance nightmares.  To this day I would not own an Audi and I prefer to waste my money on things other than cars, so there will be no 6th Porsche.

The best info on car reports is not necessarily from consumer analysts as they involve a subjective value calculation.

Instead, ask a tow truck driver what luxury cars he tows the most. Audi.

I'll not mention the one he tows the least as I'm biased.

I know this how? One time I was stranded with a buddy who was driving his wife's beat up old Range Rover. It was truly invaded by gremlins. It completely died, was towed to the dealership--where I was happy to get real time info on street level luxury stats from the driver--and came back to life just as the mechanic was about to get to work on it. They were cool, charged a minimal fee and we limped out of there with no major stinger...even though that Rover was just useless and waiting to crumble. The older Rovers(50s/60s)? Different story. The very latest Rover? I hear they're way better.

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47 minutes ago, Que said:

Says the guy who drives a Rover?!?  Give your head a shake! 

I've spent next to nothing on repairs on the Rover - a coolant leak (burst header tank) was the only stranding.

Other than its thirst it's been a very cheap & reliable vehicle.

 

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13 hours ago, El Mariachi said:

Fuk. Ing. Drool......

FB_IMG_1616273896110.jpg

Isn't that just an AC ace with big wheels and a merc badge?

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Not an AC Ace.  Rather he cut up and customized a 1955 MB 300 SL.

Hagerty Insurance cites average value of the 300SL in stock configuration at $1.1 million.  

 

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1 minute ago, Morgan Crewed said:

Not an AC Ace.  Rather he cut up and customized a 1955 MB 300 SL.

Hagerty Insurance cites average value of the 300SL in stock configuration at $1.1 million.  

 

That Merc makes the AC Ace look like a 1955 VW Beetle.

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2 hours ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

funny thing is you can still find them new at the dealers even though out of production

Ist that because they alle flashe and no dance?                    :)

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Anecdata - I met a guy who had owned one - said it was poorly built. Rattled like a 70's Corvette and had poor reliability.

Totally hauled ass though so the muscle car comparison is apt.

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3 hours ago, Snaggletooth said:

Ist that because they alle flashe and no dance?                    :)

only so many mullets that visit a dodge dealer...

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On 3/28/2021 at 7:56 PM, Ed Lada said:

German cars drive nicely, they handle well, many of them go fast comfortably but they are often ugly and are designed by and for German engineers, not for consumers.  The are needlessly complicated and overly expensive to buy and repair just to stroke their Teutonic engineer egos. 

And then there's always the old cactus joke... 

I’ve had BMWs for 25 years, 5s and 7s, all bought used, all driven to approx 150k miles before getting rid.

The only major/expensive issue I had in all of those was leaking valve stem oil seals in a 7 I bought from a dealer. It went back to him, albeit after an amount of argument.

The nicest of them all was an E38, 1998 7.

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On 3/29/2021 at 1:27 AM, Que said:

Says the guy who drives a Rover?!?  Give your head a shake!  Benz, yeah -- I hear you, but I find I only have to remember to "Bring My Wallet" if I take the little cars to have someone else to do the work.

When I owned my Rorver, I claimed that I kept the German cars around so I had a reliable way to get to the parts store.  Of course, then I bought a Jetta....and dedicated a whole shed in my back yard to Jetta spares...or Jetta Ejecta as I took to calling them. 

 

"Bring My Walllet:!!  Never heard that one before!!  I coined "Bring More Wampum", here id SE CT Indian casino land....

 

Why did you need Jetta spares?  Every Jetta I have ever known was bullet proof.....

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On 3/31/2021 at 4:57 AM, billy backstay said:

 

"Bring My Walllet:!!  Never heard that one before!!  I coined "Bring More Wampum", here id SE CT Indian casino land....

 

Why did you need Jetta spares?  Every Jetta I have ever known was bullet proof.....

'01 VR6 GLX.  Timing chain guides (issue when I bought the car), then a skipped chain/bent valve (totally my fault - missed threadlock on one bolt during reassembly).  I bought a second car for the donor engine and kept all the bits and pieces to deal with what seemed like a constant stream of electrical component failures (door locks, trunk wiring harness, engine sensors, failed dash pixels, failed switches, heated seats, air conditioning, fuel pump and similar.  Root cause of most was age and delayed maintenance by previous owners so I can't totally blame VW, but I was expecting the fun factor of an '84 GTI and got higher maintenance effort than my Rover.  I think the Jetta was probably pretty well sorted out by the time I sold it off.

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I get the pure performance of some modern muscle cars.  Variable valve timing, F.I., forced induction, computer control and optimization is very cool, but...  In the 60s and early 70s engineers had to balance performance against drivability with some interesting results.  Buick in the GS/Riviera lines late 60s had some pretty lumpy cams and performance given they were working with moderate sized valves.  Chevy offered the L79, a 327/375hp with a hydraulic cam with so much lift and duration and lumpy idle that Chevy would only pair it with a 4speed manual because it could not idle spinning against the drag of the torque converter of an automatic. These were before the original fairly radical 69 Boss 302 and 67 Z28.

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