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Bermuda 40 vs Swan 44?


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56 minutes ago, Caliente said:

Just curious, how many hours a year to keep a B-40 in Hinckley condition considering winter in the Bahamas and summer in the Great Lakes. I have the time and superlative tape masking skills, but with varnish there is a fine line between therapy and insanity for me. 

With two of the BI 40s on the market there are deck leaks that worry me about the builder. I agree the BI has many advantages: bigger and brighter cabin, newer for similar price, less tender, less teak, etc. 

B40 actually should be pretty easy to keep looking sharp.  They have minimal varnish (compared to my boat which has acres) and they don’t have teak decks, which usually shouldn’t mean a ton of maintenance if cared for properly, but certainly presents more minding over than a gel coat deck. That said, keep up with the varnish you have and get a tub of flitz for all the chromed bits, and the boat will pop and you’ll get respect.  On my boat, which I largely maintain myself, I put in about 50 hours a season.  Most of that is varnishing and polishing, and I always have something systems wise in the works.  This year I’m putting I a LiFePO4 bank, so that’s consuming most of my time maintenance wise.  My boat, a LM Seguin 46, is a good example of my last post btw, in that we were really looking for Swans way back when we got her, but couldn’t find one at a reasonable cost that wasn’t really sad looking. Because the Seguin was not as well known we got it at a reasonable price and the boat was pristine in every way.  

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The McCurdy & Rhodes designed SW-42 and SW-51 sail extremely well, especially the deep keel versions, and more especially the few competition versions. My SW-42 sailed like a dream. They are very

The J/40 is a great boat.   She will provide terrific sailing on the Great Lakes, and if your plans change, she will also be a nice cruising boat to explore the Bahamas and beyond.   We have a J/110. 

The Shellback is a really nice dinghy. It is big (11'), which is why it rows and sails so well. It doesn't have the very  high initial stability of a RIB, and won't be a 20-knot terror like my 9' alum

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4 minutes ago, eliboat said:

 My boat, a LM Seguin 46, is a good example of my last post btw, in that we were really looking for Swans way back when we got her, but couldn’t find one at a reasonable cost that wasn’t really sad looking. Because the Seguin was not as well known we got it at a reasonable price and the boat was pristine in every way.  

Those are wonderful boats. I know several people who own or have owned them. Before I started build my last boat, I tried to get L-M to sell me a bare hull 44 (the 46 has an extended transom), but they weren't interested, so I had a very different hull built for me in England and shipped to me in the US to build out.

For those that don't know the Seguin 44/46, she is a typical early 1980's S&S hull, but each one was individually finished, and there were several keel, deckhouse, stern, interior, and rig variations.

Drew Lyman's own 44 was for sale recently, but it is immaculate, fully tricked-out, and nowhere near the price range the OP of this thread is talking about spending.

They are very high-quality boats, but are typically varnish farms. There is no free lunch here.

 

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24 minutes ago, accnick said:

Those are wonderful boats. I know several people who own or have owned them. Before I started build my last boat, I tried to get L-M to sell me a bare hull 44 (the 46 has an extended transom), but they weren't interested, so I had a very different hull built for me in England and shipped to me in the US to build out.

For those that don't know the Seguin 44/46, she is a typical early 1980's S&S hull, but each one was individually finished, and there were several keel, deckhouse, stern, interior, and rig variations.

Drew Lyman's own 44 was for sale recently, but it is immaculate, fully tricked-out, and nowhere near the price range the OP of this thread is talking about spending.

They are very high-quality boats, but are typically varnish farms. There is no free lunch here.

 

Yes Drew’s boat is the only one listed at the moment.  I preferred her in her original blue though.  

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3 hours ago, Steve Clark said:

Swamp Yankee, Block Island 40 #1 is still in the family - third generation.  I always thought the Block Island 40 was a better design than the Bermuda 40 due to the fact that the forward waterlines were straighter, and so her motion in a head sea was less abrupt, but otherwise the two designs are pretty much identical.  Hinkley built very good boats. American Fiberglass, who built the first BI-40s was not a good builder and in the dawn of fiberglass these boats were massively built. My uncle was working fo them when Swamp Yankee was built.  

Those 40’ Tripp yawls will waddle along at +/-6 knots all day and all night.  Don’t ever expect to go faster.  If not cluttered up with conveniences, they will tack through 90.  Everything you do to make it more practical and easier to handle will slow it down, but they are solid practical boats.  I never had a moments doubt that we would get where we were going.

SHC

 I remember VAC and Swamp Yankee moored off of Ram Is. VAC encouraged me a great deal when I sailed Tempests at TA.
Swamp Yankee was a looker, her red hull looked flawless. Is she still in Sipican Steve?

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Dad encouraged lots of people, I’m glad you remember him.

Swamp Yankee is moving to Warren RI this Summer.  She will live in the Kickemuit River, which also happens to be my home port. My sister still lives on the Island.

Swamp Yankee’s red gel coat turned pink on contact with the sun. Did I mention she was one of the first fiberglass boats?  60 years later, Red gelcoat still sucks. So she was painted every year.  We also never varnished the teak.  It is happy unfinished and turns quite an attractive shade of grey.

SHC

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5 hours ago, Crash said:

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1984/nordic-40-3657875/

Nordic 40.  As fast as a Swan 44, same slip size as a B-40.  Build quality approaches them both.  Interior livability surpass either.  Plus designed by our own Bob Perry.

 

 

Yes! I saw the Kretchmer article a while back and of course follow Mr. Perry’s comments on SA with respect. I have examined many of the designs on his very long list of designs. The re were only 40 of these built but a reputation of excellent construction and design. This one is very nice but out of my range even with an older though maintained diesel. I think women would love the cabin and especially the shower. 

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2 hours ago, Navig8tor said:

Pretty looking boat "Almost completely restored" and photos of two different engines in the photo schedule is one a generator perhaps?

I think I will go look at this one today

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13 hours ago, Steve Clark said:

Dad encouraged lots of people, I’m glad you remember him.

Swamp Yankee is moving to Warren RI this Summer.  She will live in the Kickemuit River, which also happens to be my home port. My sister still lives on the Island.

Swamp Yankee’s red gel coat turned pink on contact with the sun. Did I mention she was one of the first fiberglass boats?  60 years later, Red gelcoat still sucks. So she was painted every year.  We also never varnished the teak.  It is happy unfinished and turns quite an attractive shade of grey.

SHC

I remember your sister. I was impressed with how she handled her Boston Whaler. Had dinner with her once at The Hughes' home and she was my taxi!
I am glad Ram Island is still in the family and that Swamp Yankee lives on.
And there is no way I could ever forget VAC!

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On 3/24/2021 at 1:45 AM, sailman said:

If shoal draft becomes a more driving priority you could expand your research into Morgan’s and Pearson’s of similar vintage. They have better accommodations than the B40 and are just as capable.

If you are conflicted between the slow motion at sea of a Swan on one hand and shoal draft on the other, I would consider one of Ted Hood centreboard boats. On this side of the Atlantic, we have the Hood 38 :

hood-38-557cc3d.jpg

 

But I believe that in the US the concept has been declined further. Less than 5 feet draft board up and will sail nearly as well as a Swan. It is just a shame that it was an era when big genoas were fashionable!

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52 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

If you are conflicted between the slow motion at sea of a Swan on one hand and shoal draft on the other, I would consider one of Ted Hood centreboard boats. On this side of the Atlantic, we have the Hood 38 :

hood-38-557cc3d.jpg

 

But I believe that in the US the concept has been declined further. Less than 5 feet draft board up and will sail nearly as well as a Swan. It is just a shame that it was an era when big genoas were fashionable!

I like the idea of the Ted Hood designed Hinckley 43. Might be tough to find one for sale, let alone at the OP's price point. 

image.png.91ed50216d6f6a58ba3753df8a1c9349.png

 

image.png.52aa63d023d98b1029abbd8403b4f416.png 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Panoramix said:

If you are conflicted between the slow motion at sea of a Swan on one hand and shoal draft on the other, I would consider one of Ted Hood centreboard boats. On this side of the Atlantic, we have the Hood 38 :

hood-38-557cc3d.jpg

 

But I believe that in the US the concept has been declined further. Less than 5 feet draft board up and will sail nearly as well as a Swan. It is just a shame that it was an era when big genoas were fashionable!

Over in the US there were two boats that were nearly identical to the Hood 38 - the Bristol 38.8 and the Little Harbor 38.   The main differences from the Hood 38 were a rudder with a skeg, and a little less freeboard but taller cabin trunk.

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Based on the first post criteria I would be looking for Ted Hood full CB designs.  Those shapes work very well. There is a Tor 40 for sale in Maine that’s a very cool boat.  That boat (series built in wood in Japan) was the original Robin design (I actually think it was the Tor 36 but they’re essentially the same like different sized Concordia yawls).  I raced on a Tor 36 a while back and it had a bronze airfoil shaped centerboard that drew 9’ when fully deployed, but under 4’ when retracted.  That boat could point very well with that board and was fun to drive.  Now I know that in this case wood is probably not an option, but there is no question that there are a number of Hood designs through the years that really check off all the boxes here. 

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56 minutes ago, slap said:

Over in the US there were two boats that were nearly identical to the Hood 38 - the Bristol 38.8 and the Little Harbor 38.   The main differences from the Hood 38 were a rudder with a skeg, and a little less freeboard but taller cabin trunk.

There were several different layouts in the European  Hood 38, as I recall.  I think the LH 38 has teak decks. The Bristol generally does not.  Bristols can be very good boats, or very average boats, construction-wise. The company was in and out of financial trouble over the years. Their good boats are quite good.

The LH 38 is a quick boat. The LH 38 Puritan won the Newport Bermuda race sometime in the late 1980s.

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The OC-42 is very nice. It needs a new AC, reefer, and apparently never had a holding tank (I would probably go for a composting toilet) but meets all my other criteria except a little over my flexible  budget. It was built by Hank Hinckley and is  nearly identical to the Sou’wester 42 which has a nicer interior, but this one has a full-on custom interior. Draft 5’4”. 150 hrs on the Perkins 65 engine. HRH refit 2013. 
 

It is going to be about 30K over the BI-40. Neither has working AC. Sails were fine at an expensive refit 2013 and the boat has been a dock queen. But the newish engine wipes out half that $30k. I can see it tomorrow with a two hour drive. It has been for sale for a year and lots of people have seen it but the owner is pretty firm on his price and he hasn’t fixed the issues above. Pretty boat but dang dark blue may be a bitch- AC would fix that, huge low hour gennie. 

I don’t think many would prefer a BI 40 to a SW 42 even allowing it is not a pure HRH. And it is close to me, a miracle in itself. Arrgh. 

 

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20 hours ago, valcour said:

How about this BI-40?  looks like it was recently listed.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1987/block-island-40-k-cb-yawl-3820307/

I looked at about 5 photos. Here's what I can say unequivocally:

  1. Every rubber part is either cracked, rotten, leaking, or all of the above. This includes all plumbing, engine cooling, bilge pumps, internal parts of the head, gaskets around portlights, and everything else.
  2. Every electrical connection is green with corrosion.

Big ticket items (engine, tankage, spar, etc.) have probably been maintained as well as those interior shots... i.e. not at all.

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Somebody Else, I agree- I think people just didn't want to point out the obvious. 

Is anyone going to try to talk me out of a blue boat for the Bahamas? The Philippines? I can spray it Fighting Lady yellow myself if it is like on oven. Because I am going to see it tomorrow morning unless people point out my folly. Which reminds me of a major deficiency of the B-40, the portlights are fixed.  This is going to be more than the 10% rule portion of my net worth therefore important not to screw up. If I wasn't able to do most aspects of repairs and maintenance I would not even contemplate the OC-42, not knowing what will happen with the global economy. Nowadays I think it might be better to learn and possess a variety of skills than to have excess wealth. And to be self-reliant. 

Has anyone taken a boat through the Suez Canal and then to Thailand, Philippines? Is this a reasonable exploit? 

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3 hours ago, Caliente said:

The OC-42 is very nice. It needs a new AC, reefer, and apparently never had a holding tank (I would probably go for a composting toilet) but meets all my other criteria except a little over my flexible  budget. It was built by Hank Hinckley and is  nearly identical to the Sou’wester 42 which has a nicer interior, but this one has a full-on custom interior. Draft 5’4”. 150 hrs on the Perkins 65 engine. HRH refit 2013. 
 

It is going to be about 30K over the BI-40. Neither has working AC. Sails were fine at an expensive refit 2013 and the boat has been a dock queen. But the newish engine wipes out half that $30k. I can see it tomorrow with a two hour drive. It has been for sale for a year and lots of people have seen it but the owner is pretty firm on his price and he hasn’t fixed the issues above. Pretty boat but dang dark blue may be a bitch- AC would fix that, huge low hour gennie. 

I don’t think many would prefer a BI 40 to a SW 42 even allowing it is not a pure HRH. And it is close to me, a miracle in itself. Arrgh. 

 

Why would you even think about a composting toilet? Put a small holding tank in, with a Y-valve. Not that big a deal. Once you get out of the US, people still pump their heads overboard unless you are in a marina. There are not a lot of pump-out stations once you leave US waters.

Depending on where you live, you don't need air conditioning on a boat, so replacing that is not a high-priority item. In any case, they are generally self-contained systems, and not that expensive to replace. The broker is in  West Palm. If the boat is also there, and you plan on keeping it in FL,  you may want to prioritize a replacement AC. If you do a like for like replacement, it will not be that expensive. ( I live about 1 1/2 hours from West Palm)

My boat is flag blue, Yes, it transmits heat. But we keep it in Maine. It was in a marina in Hilton Head for six years, plugged in with the AC running. 

Replacing the refrigeration would be a high priority, but do some research first.

The mahogany interior is unusual, but not problematic except that it is not as forgiving of dings as a teak interior.  You can tell in the photos that the mahogany is stained, which will not be easy to match if you ding it. So just be careful.

The pressurized kerosene galley stove does nothing for me. Kerosene can be hard to find. I might replace that with propane at some point.

There is no detail given on the sails. When you say "huge low hour gennie", are you talking about the generator, or a large headsail? If it's the generator, 8 kw is more than you need, and you will need to put some form of dummy load on it if all you are doing is charging batteries with it. That's not a show-stopper, it just requires establishing a protocol to keep it healthy.

it says new electric anchor windlass, but doesn't say what that is. It matters. It also doesn't show the anchor handling set-up, which you should look at carefully. A really good anchoring system, including the windlass, anchor housing arrangement at the stemhead, and chain stowage is an important consideration if you are going cruising.

All in all, this boat sounds good. It appears a fortune was spent on it in 2013--maybe when the current owner bought it. I don't know where the boat has been kept since then, which may make a difference. Seven years in Florida can be hard on a boat that is not in regular use.

There are no construction details given, so I don't know if it is a cored hull or solid, and  if cored, with what. There are many unanswered questions you should seek answers to.

It it is as good as it sounds on paper, I might stretch my budget to buy it, unless some of the unanswered questions have answers you don't like.

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On 3/28/2021 at 9:59 AM, Caliente said:

Of course the nearest and cheapest Swan 44 to me has a corroded mast step such that the end of the mast was even corroded and an extension welded on, and the keel will have to be removed for repair. It will make a superb Great Loop vessel without a mast.

I assume you’re talking about the one on Lake Michigan? We looked at it not seriously and looked like the mast step had been replaced. I gather the base of the mast is not in good shape?

 

 

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Thanks again accnick! There is nothing better than the voice of experience in these matters. The boat is located in Detroit, which is two hours by car along the shore from me. The broker is very thorough and has delivery and charter experience, he knows the boat well. The boat was surveyed twice and nothing was noted except as below. The hull is cored like an Alden but was sound tested and passed. I think Hinckley would have noticed any core problems and it has been out of the water during winter since also.

Since the major refit in 2013 it has been coddled by the owner during the short summer season, then stored inside a heated area for the winter. No salt water since 2015. Hardly sailed as the owner's family just wasn't into it, thus selling. Very good maintenance. It was originally owned by a Hall of Fame basketball player who ordered the custom interior. 

The standing rigging was replaced and rod rigging was used. When this was done the backstays adjustment and boom vang hydraulics were disabled, should be easy to fix. The stove is actually alcohol and yes needs to be changed- fire hazard. I think the AC is Dometic $2K, and the cold plate refer should be plug and play. There was a SSB that was removed by cutting the wires. He thinks the three lightly used sails including a spinnaker are ten years old, 120% genoa. The spinnaker was never used. There is hardware for a cutter rig not placed. Lazyjacks. 

Since the recent $10K price drop there has been a lot of interest. I think the potential buyers have been put off with the AC and refer and failure to negotiate on the price. Sou'Westers that appear to be the same boat and vintage are twice the price. 

I doubt the builder Hank Hinckley cut any corners, his book is on my desk and he is OCD in a good way. He walked down the street and set up his own shop and took many of the best employees with him when the equity firm bought the company. The second equity firm owners bankrupted Hinckley with too much debt. The family maintained a close connection and the same castings, suppliers etc from the SW 42 were used, I think this boat is built with the same layup in the hull and deck and the deck hardware is beautiful, rechromed and polished etc. 

We shall see tomorrow. On paper she should be good for another twenty years except maybe the sails. Thanks to everyone for their input!

1 minute ago, SOSOS said:

 

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, Caliente said:

Somebody Else, I agree- I think people just didn't want to point out the obvious. 

Is anyone going to try to talk me out of a blue boat for the Bahamas? The Philippines? I can spray it Fighting Lady yellow myself if it is like on oven. Because I am going to see it tomorrow morning unless people point out my folly. Which reminds me of a major deficiency of the B-40, the portlights are fixed.  This is going to be more than the 10% rule portion of my net worth therefore important not to screw up. If I wasn't able to do most aspects of repairs and maintenance I would not even contemplate the OC-42, not knowing what will happen with the global economy. Nowadays I think it might be better to learn and possess a variety of skills than to have excess wealth. And to be self-reliant. 

Has anyone taken a boat through the Suez Canal and then to Thailand, Philippines? Is this a reasonable exploit? 

I painted my light blue boat dark blue. She looks much nicer, but the heat below in summer was not something I had thought of before. For a solid glass boat it does make a difference!

I would not go through the Suez Canal myself. Traffic jams aside, between the climate and the pirates it sounds like an awful trip.

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This is an interesting thread, and I hope that more boats will be thrown into the mix and more experienced people will weigh in. Gotta say that I am surprised at some of the things @Caliente entertains - world cruising with centerboards or cored hulls - and taking the Atlantic/Suez route rather than the Panama/Pacific way to the Philippines, for examples.  But hey, ain't it good that we are all different?

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47 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

 

I would not go through the Suez Canal myself. Traffic jams aside, between the climate and the pirates it sounds like an awful trip.

Our two-day trip through the Suez in 2001 was stressful only because the pilots were a pain in the butt. By comparison, even though the Panama Canal was a far greater  technical challenge, the pilots seemed like they were actually there to help you get through safely.

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5 minutes ago, Israel Hands said:

This is an interesting thread, and I hope that more boats will be thrown into the mix and more experienced people will weigh in. Gotta say that I am surprised at some of the things @Caliente world cruising with centerboards or cored hulls - and taking the Atlantic/Suez route rather than the Panama/Pacific way to the Philippines, for examples.  But hey, ain't it good that we are all different?

Our French friends produce a variety of well regarded blue water cruisers with centreboards. Most of them do seen to be built out of recycled drinks cans.

I'm told they sail quite well, but I've not had that confirmed by someone who's definition of well I've validated.

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5 minutes ago, Israel Hands said:

This is an interesting thread, and I hope that more boats will be thrown into the mix and more experienced people will weigh in. Gotta say that I am surprised at some of the things @Caliente entertains - world cruising with centerboards or cored hulls - and taking the Atlantic/Suez route rather than the Panama/Pacific way to the Philippines, for examples.  But hey, ain't it good that we are all different?

We have friends that have gone west-about, and others that have gone east-about. We went west, as about 90% of circumnavigating cruisers do.  The seasonal planning is easier going west.

The Philippines are at about 120 E. The east coast of the US is about 75 W, so you are pretty much talking about the far side of the world, as the crow flies. From the west coast of the US, it is a no-brainer to go W if your destination is the Philippines. You only have one very large ocean to cross, and not a lot of land in the way.

Cruising boats, unlike crows, don't normally fly, and often don't even sail in a straight line.

Is it about the destination, or the trip? That may help you decide. If you go E, a boat that can sail upwind like a witch is a plus.

We have seen boats of all sizes, types and qualities cruising the world, so there is no one right answer. It's all about your comfort level.

 

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36 minutes ago, European Bloke said:

Our French friends produce a variety of well regarded blue water cruisers with centreboards. Most of them do seen to be built out of recycled drinks cans.

I'm told they sail quite well, but I've not had that confirmed by someone who's definition of well I've validated.

Quite true.  If I were headed for a circumnavigation or multi year extended distance cruise in this size range, I would most definitely be looking at these boats.  Classically beautiful? Definitely no, but very well suited for their intended purpose. 

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Just read through this thread and it is a good one.  I have a Hood 38 (Bristol 38.8) that I am restoring after it was abandoned for several years-most would agree that this is one of Ted Hood's (Dieter Empacher) best boats - good looking, shoal draft, sails well and generally robust, simple and well proven.  I hope to have her launched and sailing this summer.

Good luck Caliente with your buying process - I think you are considering some good boats and of course it is always a question of compromise and what you ultimately decide is right for you.  Personally-to the original question and I have experience with both-I have never been a B40 lover.  They are pretty and they are great boats in alot of ways, but I don't love the way they sail or handle under power and they are pretty tight below for 40'.  The Swan 44 (especially the ones with the rudder/bustle and interior mods) are wonderful boats but deep for a cruising boat and you have to love the old Swanisms. I like shoal draft for a cruising boat.

Keep us posted!

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As mentioned before, of the half dozen B-40s for sale, at least two have circumnavigated with centerboards and I don’t know the history of three of them. Perhaps their owners were better sailors than some, or fools.

According to Hereschoff it is foolish to have other than a white boat, or to be concerned with standing headroom. As to the best route to the PH, I have not alleged any world cruising experience but for sure I will know before I go. For pirates I will throw tacks on the deck at night like Slocum ha. This simple fool has respect for the vast sailing  knowledge of some on this forum and their willingness to pass on this knowledge.

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1 hour ago, accnick said:

Our two-day trip through the Suez in 2001 was stressful only because the pilots were a pain in the butt. By comparison, even though the Panama Canal was a far greater  technical challenge, the pilots seemed like they were actually there to help you get through safely.

I was not referring to the canal itself, but the subsequent trip through the Red Sea and past Somalia. I am not sure I would do that for fun.

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1 hour ago, Israel Hands said:

This is an interesting thread, and I hope that more boats will be thrown into the mix and more experienced people will weigh in. Gotta say that I am surprised at some of the things @Caliente entertains - world cruising with centerboards or cored hulls - and taking the Atlantic/Suez route rather than the Panama/Pacific way to the Philippines, for examples.  But hey, ain't it good that we are all different?

I would have no issue with a cored hull and a centerboard  going world cruising any more so than any other boat. A cored hull in bad shape is not good for any kind of cruising and centerboards are well proven tech at this point. It comes down to the specific boat or model. There are boats with solid hulls and no centerboard I would not want to be in a bad thunderstorm in the Bay in :rolleyes:

Leaving from any point in the USA I cannot image going through the Suez canal to get anyplace in the Pacific.

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32 minutes ago, Caliente said:

As mentioned before, of the half dozen B-40s for sale, at least two have circumnavigated with centerboards and I don’t know the history of three of them. Perhaps their owners were better sailors than some, or fools.

According to Hereschoff it is foolish to have other than a white boat, or to be concerned with standing headroom. As to the best route to the PH, I have not alleged any world cruising experience but for sure I will know before I go. For pirates I will throw tacks on the deck at night like Slocum ha. This simple fool has respect for the vast sailing  knowledge of some on this forum and their willingness to pass on this knowledge.

The B40 is a very old design. They have the same waterline length that my 35 foot boat has, is slower, and less roomy below. Many of them have the archaic "use the icebox as a chart table" layout that I really dislike.  My chart table is my "office" and I spend a lot of time there. OTOH they are very well built and beautiful. I would have no safety concerns with one at all unless the boat was in poor shape. The centerboard is awesome for the ICW and Bahamas.

The Swan OTOH is a deep draft boat that would have issues in the ICW and Bahamas. They were NOT intended for short handed cruising when new whatsoever, so you really need to look at the sail handling gear. The ONE thing that would drive me NUTS is the up-and-over submarine hatch companionway. I worked on a boat with that layout and I was 99% of the way to using a chainsaw to cut a door in the hull I was so tired of hauling shit up over the bridgedeck, limbo under the dodger, and then repeat 100 times a day :angry: YMMV

* I get why you like these boats, walking into the yacht club bar, pointing at the mooring field, and saying "That's my Hinckley/Swan" beats saying "I maximized the utility, stability, tankage, and storage and chose that plastic model X right there with the sensible sailplan" all to hell B)

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More on the cockpit:

You absolutely cannot discount the comfort factor of a decent dodger and room to lie down. With Otto steering and any kind of rain or spray, I sit under the dodger with the remote. On offshore trips, a watch of 2 people had one steering and one napping with their head under the dodger when things are settled.

With a decent dodger I can leave the companionway open as long as rain and spray are from forward, it makes a huge difference in the climate down below.

All of the above is difficult with the Swan cockpit layout.

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8 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I was not referring to the canal itself, but the subsequent trip through the Red Sea and past Somalia. I am not sure I would do that for fun.

It was a stressful trip when we did it in early 2001. We were heading W after crossing the Indian Ocean, so  N up the Red Sea, not S as you would be if sailing E. I'm sure it is still stressful. The Red Sea was not too bad weather-wise but we were fortunate. The stressful part was Oman to Eritrea, near the lower end of the Red Sea.

At that time, the biggest piracy threat was off Yemen. This was a few months after the USS Cole was attacked in Aden, and tensions were high, even though that was a directed suicide bombing, not an act of piracy.  

The pirates came out of Yemen in relatively small craft powered by big outboards, and only went out about 20 miles or so. The Somali pirates went out about 75, in larger, slower diesel-powered boats.  A group of cruising boats met with a French naval officer in Salalah, Oman. He gave us coordinates of a nominally-safe corridor between the two sets of pirates.

One of those boats had a giant American flag painted on the side, and they were armed.  We thought they were nuts. You would almost always be outgunned by the pirates, however. You could buy an AK-47 in the market in Salalah for $100 back then.)

One cruising boat that left Oman a week before us was attacked off Mukalla, Yemen. They made the mistake of going in there for fuel, and were tracked out, attacked, boarded, robbed, and threatened with death. Their boat was badly damaged, and their cruising ended.

We snuck by with radio silence, no running lights, and in nominal company with a few other boats, which was only a feel-good exercise, in hindsight. We split up after entering the Red Sea.  A group of mega sailing yachts behind us carried armed mercenaries.

In any case, it is something you endure, not enjoy. We made it, but neither my wife nor I has any desire to re-visit that part of the world, despite its bleak beauty.

As an aside, I was working in Cochin, India, a decade or so ago. I chatted with an English cruising boat anchored there.  A few weeks later they were captured near the entrance to the Red Sea and held hostage for a year before being ransomed.

Do you feel lucky? We were lucky once, and would not roll the dice that way again. Having said that, many people still go that route, and it frequently does not seem as dangerous when you are doing it as it does as armchair sailors from afar.

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1 minute ago, accnick said:

One of those boats had a giant American flag painted on the side, and they were armed.  We thought they were nuts. You would almost always be outgunned by the pirates, however. You could buy an AK-47 in the market in Salalah for $100 back then.)

This is the "run faster than your friend" system: Bill and Ted are going hiking in the woods. Bill runs a mile every day to get ready. Ted asks what for. Bill says in case of a bear attack. Ted says you can't outrun a bear. Bill says I only need to outrun YOU.

Pirates would in theory not mess with the nutty Americans shooting off an AK-47 and just attack the next boat in line ;) - maybe.

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2 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

This is the "run faster than your friend" system: Bill and Ted are going hiking in the woods. Bill runs a mile every day to get ready. Ted asks what for. Bill says in case of a bear attack. Ted says you can't outrun a bear. Bill says I only need to outrun YOU.

Pirates would in theory not mess with the nutty Americans shooting off an AK-47 and just attack the next boat in line ;) - maybe.

Or you might just piss them off, so they put an RPG into you and then rob the next bloke.

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Just now, European Bloke said:

Or you might just piss them off, so they put an RPG into you and then rob the next bloke.

Yup - it is a high-risk play. Big upside and big downside. You also can do the opposite, I read about a guy who had such a shitty boat the pirates ended up giving HIM some stuff out of their booty collection, he literally was not worth pirating.

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48 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

centerboards are well proven tech at this point.

Yes I know...it's just a personal perspective at this point in my life. I too grew up on the Chesapeake, and our boats of all sizes then had centerboards. And every one of them required extra maintenance to some degree. So I just don't want to mess with that again. Three decades with my shallow draft keel on a 34' boat has provided satisfaction in this department, and so my search is for a 40+' boat that will fit the same formula (with likely an extra 12" draft).

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16 minutes ago, Israel Hands said:

Yes I know...it's just a personal perspective at this point in my life. I too grew up on the Chesapeake, and our boats of all sizes then had centerboards. And every one of them required extra maintenance to some degree. So I just don't want to mess with that again. Three decades with my shallow draft keel on a 34' boat has provided satisfaction in this department, and so my search is for a 40+' boat that will fit the same formula (with likely an extra 12" draft).

I have four choices:

Centerboard

Shallow(ish) fixed keel, less than 6 feet.

Wing keel

Be aground in my slip except at high tide

I am trying to avoid the last two choices, a wing keel aground is REALLY aground, at least I can get back off again. Funny you should mention centerboard maintenance, I know of at least two people that just got rid of the board and are permanently board-up.
 

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I’m amused by people that think they are mind readers. I am looking at quality boats primarily for their construction and resale value, I have accomplished enough in my life that impressing snobby people is low on my priority list.
 

The Suez canal was a brain fart after reading that hilarious container ship thread, I would be doing the Great Loop then west to the Philippines and researched the route not long ago. I would worry more about whales than pirates ha. No Yemen or Somalia for me.

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16 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I have four choices:

Centerboard

Shallow(ish) fixed keel, less than 6 feet.

Wing keel

Be aground in my slip except at high tide

I am trying to avoid the last two choices, a wing keel aground is REALLY aground, at least I can get back off again. Funny you should mention centerboard maintenance, I know of at least two people that just got rid of the board and are permanently board-up.
 

In such a situation, I would choose twin keel!

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10 minutes ago, Caliente said:

I’m amused by people that think they are mind readers. I am looking at quality boats primarily for their construction and resale value, I have accomplished enough in my life that impressing snobby people is low on my priority list.
 

The Suez canal was a brain fart after reading that hilarious container ship thread, I would be doing the Great Loop then west to the Philippines and researched the route not long ago. I would worry more about whales than pirates ha. No Yemen or Somalia for me.

There is no choice then,. The B40 is a decent Looper with the masts stored awaiting your return, the Swan - NFW.

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3 hours ago, Israel Hands said:

This is an interesting thread, and I hope that more boats will be thrown into the mix and more experienced people will weigh in. Gotta say that I am surprised at some of the things @Caliente entertains - world cruising with centerboards or cored hulls - and taking the Atlantic/Suez route rather than the Panama/Pacific way to the Philippines, for examples.  But hey, ain't it good that we are all different?

Centreboard is OK as long as the boat is heavy enough.What you are after is righting moment, you can either have a small weight at the end of long lever arm or a heavy weight at the end of a short lever arm.

I would take a Hood 38 across an ocean (and quite a few have crossed oceans) especially if I wanted a shallow draft to explore places like the Bahamas. The Hood is mid way between long keel and a French style centreboarder, one advantage is that you can sail upwind board up unlike centreboard boat with a flat bottom. The only big downside is that as the boat is heavy you need big sails to move it and it is in turn more work for the crew and bad for the owner purse (bigger everything to maintain and replace....)

A cored hull in good condition is stronger than a monolithic hull as it is thicker plus the core is a better insulant thus less condensation....

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50 minutes ago, Caliente said:

I’m amused by people that think they are mind readers. I am looking at quality boats primarily for their construction and resale value, I have accomplished enough in my life that impressing snobby people is low on my priority list.
 

The Suez canal was a brain fart after reading that hilarious container ship thread, I would be doing the Great Loop then west to the Philippines and researched the route not long ago. I would worry more about whales than pirates ha. No Yemen or Somalia for me.

Philippines, Straits of Sumatra..... there be pirates.....

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1 hour ago, kent_island_sailor said:

This is the "run faster than your friend" system: Bill and Ted are going hiking in the woods. Bill runs a mile every day to get ready. Ted asks what for. Bill says in case of a bear attack. Ted says you can't outrun a bear. Bill says I only need to outrun YOU.

Pirates would in theory not mess with the nutty Americans shooting off an AK-47 and just attack the next boat in line ;) - maybe.

The problem with armed defense against pirates is this. They have already shot you while you consider whether you need to shoot them or not.

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17 hours ago, Caliente said:

Has anyone taken a boat through the Suez Canal and then to Thailand, Philippines? Is this a reasonable exploit? 

I have a dear friend who has done this multiple times -- from the other direction. He has had several boats built in Thailand and then delivered them to Greece via the Suez Canal. He speaks at least 6 languages -- fluently! Thai being the most recent.

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1 hour ago, kent_island_sailor said:

a wing keel aground is REALLY aground, at least I can get back off again.

For what it's worth, here is my personal experience with a wing keel:  In 33 years (I'd describe the wings as small enough to call winglets, but they cut the draft to 4.5'), I have never run so hard aground that I couldn't back off or at least pivot around under power. That's sailing in coastal NC and a couple of years on the lower Chesapeake, so we are talking shallow waters. And here's an added bonus - on those days in the slip when the tide is super low and the keel touches bottom, the boat sits upright.

1 hour ago, Panoramix said:

Centreboard is OK as long as the boat is heavy enough.

For me it's not about righting moment. It's about potential jams, cable failures, and a guaranteed barnacle farm.

I've looked at nine different 40+ foot boats during the past year, as candidates for an offshore "retirement boat."  One of them had a centerboard - it was a Bristol 41.1 - and all I had to do was to see the arrangement to remind me that I didn't that one extra, significant hassle back in my life. 

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Some great insight and lifelong acquired knowledge being shared on this thread. While somewhat hesitant to point anyone towards YouTubers, I did come across an interesting channel a few days ago featuring a young couple evaluating various traditional bluewater cruisers for long term cruising/liveaboard purposes. John Kretschmer provides some commentary on each one as well. While their budget is more in the $150-200k range and the boats "only" roughly 15-20 years old, the compare/contrast between various aspects of each boat in matters such as hull design, construction, rig, cockpit, engine access, maintenance requirements, ventilation, "livability", etc I'd like to think will offer you some things to think about as you evaluate your own options. Boats discussed are a Valiant 42, Pacific Seacraft 40 and 37, Shannon 43, Caliber LRC 40, and Najad 370. (They have something like 143 videos but it's the most recent ones that concern these boats. Channel is "Atticus Project Sailing".

P.S. Nice aft cabin on your girlfriend.

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That engine looks like a hose let go at some point or the sink above possibly?

It looks like the moisture was wiped up on the easy to reach front but the valleys in the block and the nuts attached to the alternator arm etc are rusty.
It's apparant the areas that were not touched or cleaned and the engine run subsequently.

The hoses look pretty new and not double clamped.

If you move on this boat I would certainly make sure the engine checks out and has no overheat damage. Get a mechanic in familiar with that specific engine.

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The windlass is a new Maxwell 500, a CQR and Danforth anchor, giant chain locker. So it is good for 125 pounds of ground tackle which is not overkill. The generator is only 5kw, not 8kw and like the engine has great access. The engine was in a salt water environment for two years, I like to keep them sprayed down with CCR or they get surface corrosion like that quickly. The broker is allowing the sea trial to include the 60 miles to my marina but yes it would pay to give it lots of attention. 
 

The last surveyor thought the practically new gleaming rod rigging had crevice corrosion and the buyer wanted $5k off for that which smoked the deal. You decide, another surveyor said it was good and it looks like it will last thirty years to me. Sorry about the rotated pics

image.thumb.jpeg.e99cb46b24f920540fdaad33df5c41c9.jpeg

A2DD6B30-E406-4926-99BA-81626B3075ED.jpeg

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Looking at the engine pic again maybe it did have a hose leak, it was dark in the building. Maybe an engine survey? The broker is going to ask the owner’s mechanic about this. Good eyes, Nav. 

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A 5kw generator is about right for charging batteries and running a single air conditioning unit (not at the same time).  The boat probably has an inverter/charger, and you need to know the make/model.  I have a 5.5 kw generator on my 34' downeast powerboat, charging batteries through a Xantrex 2kw SW-series pure sine wave inverter/charger with 100-amp charger. The generator carries that charging load just fine, although it feel the load when the charger first kicks in.

Nearly new Nitronic 50 rod (if that's what it is) is highly unlikely to have crevice corrosion, but a dye penetration test would be good. Not that many people really know how to do these, and you usually bring in a rigger to do it properly.

A photo of the windlass  would be useful, if you took one. The motor should be at least 1000 watts for this boat. It would be nice to see a photo of the stemhead anchor arrangement, as well. This can make or break your anchoring experience.

The engine looks good from the outside, but the sea trial will be the real test. The engine should make and maintain rated RPM for at least 15 minutes in the sea trial in flat water without the engine showing signs of overheating if the boat is correctly propped and the engine cooling system is in good condition. Be sure and checlk engine fluids before the sea  trial.

I believe the listing said the boat has a MaxProp. Depending on the model, the prop may have externally adjustable pitch, which is handy in case the boat is over-propped, which is fairly common.

You must run the engine flat out to see if it makes rated RPM. You can get rated RPM from the engine specs. This is non-negotiable as part of any engine survey, as nerve-wracking as it may be for both buyer and seller.

You need to know the make and model of the refrigeration system. It also needs a proper evaluation by and expert, but since the fact that the condition states it needs work, this is not really a negotiating point. There are any number of potential failure points on a refrigeration system.

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My experience with diesel mechanics during the spring launch rush is a 45 day wait. If you have a little diesel they don’t even want to be bothered. 

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The Maxwell 500 is 600W but it seems they are rated by pulling power ie should be four times the weight of what you are recovering. Maybe it was sized to the existing chain. 

Head is Lectra/San, refrig and freezer are Technicold, and 
A/C is Cruisair model SHF 16. 

The SSB is there but no antenna. 
 

I’m assuming the refrigeration and AirCon is toast. It has a giant freezer and giant refrigerator with massive insulation, front loading. 

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5 minutes ago, Caliente said:

image.thumb.jpeg.30c2d55886d7f070f7da1150e913fe4e.jpeg

That looks like a standard MaxProp, so partial disassembly is probably required to re-set pitch. It is not an in-water job. The size looks probably OK for tip clearance, which in the ideal world is about 10% of diameter. You can get the pitch to whatever it needs to be if you can't make RPM. It is critical to know what RPM you actually make, and how the engine behaves under that load. You prop diameter is fixed, but the potential pitch is widely variable.

You should never paint your MaxProp, but should polish it and keep it clean. Wet sand it before launch for sea trials. You can start out dry power sanding it with about 220 grit on a random orbit sander, followed by wet sanding as much as you have the patience for. The prop should be kept as smooth as possible for the sake of efficiency. Keep the hub clean as well, but only the blades need to be polished. There are usually external grease plugs on these. You unscrew the plug and screw in a typical grease fitting, then pump the recommended grease in wiht a standard greas gun until it starts coming out every joint on the prop. It will be dirty when it stars coming out, but will eventually consist only of clean grease.  Then remove the grease fitting and screw the plug back in, and clean up the inevitable mess.

It is messy the first

With luck, the paperwork on the prop will be in the ship's files. Most owners keep equipment records and files, and you really want those. With luck, you may even have a ship's operating manual created by a previous owner.

Do you have the exact model of the windlass, or at least a photo? Several different models of Maxwell windlasses have had a "500" designation over time. Most are designed for smaller boats than this one, so pinning down the exact model would be nice. If it is a VWC 500, the normal chain gypsy is only for 1/4" chain, which should tell you it is small for the boat.

When calculating lift, you use the weight of the entire ground tackle as your baseline, including the anchor, swivel (if any), chain, and rope (if that's what you anchor on).  For example, the primary ground tackle on my 40' world cruiser was: CQR 60 (60 lb), plus 400' of 3/8" G4 Hi tensile (600 lb) for a total of 660 pounds. And yes, I have had all 400' out on several occasions. The windlass on that boat was a Lofrans Falkon with 1500 watt motor. They now put a bigger motor on that same windlass.

That boat weighed a bit over 29,000 pounds all-up. The ground tackle was designed to be overkill, but there is no such thing as overkill when you are anchored on a lee shore in a gale with a busted transmission and no room to beat out.

The ground tackle on my Wilbur 34 downeast, a coastal cruising boat, consists of a Delta 35 (35 lb) plus 225' of 5/16" G4 hi tensile (250 lb) for a total of about 285 lb. We have a Lofrans Tigres with a 1000 watt motor. They now put a 1200-watt motor on that same windlass. I may cut off 25' of that chain, but maybe not. They gave me 25' extra when I bought it, as it was the end of the barrel.

That ground tackle is just about right for an 18,000 pound (all up) 34-foot cruising powerboat with a lot of windage.  It would also be about right for a typical 37 foot modern cruising sailboat.

None of these potential shortcomings is a dealbreaker in any way. You just need to understand where you may want to invest money in the future if you decide serious cruising is on the agenda.

What we can see of your possible boat looks nice, but the devil is in the details. Just remember: there is no such thing as a perfect boat. All boats are a compromise.

 

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It is the Maxwell Freedom for 3/8”, ok for Lake Erie but not 400 pounds only 125.

It seems a lot of boat for $115k but if there is better for the money or less I can wait. 
 

Only one Ted Hood 38 for sale and a two week trip to deliver:

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1984/wauquiez-38-mki-ted-hood-3715063/

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2 hours ago, Caliente said:

The windlass is a new Maxwell 500, a CQR and Danforth anchor, giant chain locker. So it is good for 125 pounds of ground tackle which is not overkill. The generator is only 5kw, not 8kw and like the engine has great access. The engine was in a salt water environment for two years, I like to keep them sprayed down with CCR or they get surface corrosion like that quickly. The broker is allowing the sea trial to include the 60 miles to my marina but yes it would pay to give it lots of attention. 
 

The last surveyor thought the practically new gleaming rod rigging had crevice corrosion and the buyer wanted $5k off for that which smoked the deal. You decide, another surveyor said it was good and it looks like it will last thirty years to me. Sorry about the rotated pics

image.thumb.jpeg.e99cb46b24f920540fdaad33df5c41c9.jpeg

A2DD6B30-E406-4926-99BA-81626B3075ED.jpeg

I don't believe that rod is rated to 30 years.

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4 minutes ago, Cruisin Loser said:

I don't believe that rod is rated to 30 years.

 

Rod should be replaced every 10-15 years in NZ so if it spends 6 months of the year in a shed in the US I guess it's possible

Just about everyone down in NZ antifouls their props (fixed or folding power or sail ) with a product called Propspeed,  its bloody good stuff.

It may be worth simply upgrading the windlass motor to a min of a 1000W and adjust breaker size too.

Considering the few photos we have seen it may well be worth it.

And do make sure the gypsy is compatible with the chain on board you would be surprised how many are not.

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Yes here the rod will last a really long time, the season is six months, stored indoors, no salt water, low humidity, cool weather all reduce corrosion. Also remember the stick is pulled and maintained before and after the season, nobody does that down south in the Outer Banks where I lived before. Ohio is perfect for six months and awful the rest. Cruising is the opposite for corrosion, stress on the rig, and losing a rig is even more dangerous of course. 
 

 

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This is a great thread. Not in the price range being considered by the OP, but with so much experience represented in this thread, I thought I would ask what people think about the Tartan 3700 (standard or CCR). Would be used for West Coast coastal cruising and day sailing (based out of SoCal), probably a HaHa and a winter or two in Mexico, a couple of summers in the PNW, etc. We're a couple in our early '60s in good shape who've sailed all our lives. Former racers who love to sail, so need decent performance, but looking for reasonable comfort and decent build quality, fit & finish. Need a decent size cockpit to take friends/family daysailing. Looks are important to us, but not at the expense of reasonable performance or comfort. A good galley with some counter space is important. Don't want to go over 40'. Haven't really started looking or thinking too hard about the next boat (need to sell our FT10 first), but from what we've seen, the Tartan 3700 appears to tick quite a few boxes for us, and there are a fair number on Yacht World. 

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5 hours ago, PHM said:

This is a great thread. Not in the price range being considered by the OP, but with so much experience represented in this thread, I thought I would ask what people think about the Tartan 3700 (standard or CCR). Would be used for West Coast coastal cruising and day sailing (based out of SoCal), probably a HaHa and a winter or two in Mexico, a couple of summers in the PNW, etc. We're a couple in our early '60s in good shape who've sailed all our lives. Former racers who love to sail, so need decent performance, but looking for reasonable comfort and decent build quality, fit & finish. Need a decent size cockpit to take friends/family daysailing. Looks are important to us, but not at the expense of reasonable performance or comfort. A good galley with some counter space is important. Don't want to go over 40'. Haven't really started looking or thinking too hard about the next boat (need to sell our FT10 first), but from what we've seen, the Tartan 3700 appears to tick quite a few boxes for us, and there are a fair number on Yacht World. 

I sailed one ages ago when a friend bought one new. The boat was easy to sail and quite responsive, we had no problem beating up a narrow twisty creek.

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17 hours ago, Israel Hands said:

I've looked at nine different 40+ foot boats during the past year, as candidates for an offshore "retirement boat."  One of them had a centerboard - it was a Bristol 41.1 - and all I had to do was to see the arrangement to remind me that I didn't that one extra, significant hassle back in my life. 

Minimal draft is good for cruising. IMO a modern twin keel is the best solution if you don't want moving appendages (which is a fair point). The only place where the centreboard boat wins over twin keels is in areas without tides.

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Now that the personal inspection has been done and I was gut-hooked after only a few minutes, finding no obvious deal-breakers after three hours of poking around in the semi-dark building with a flashlight, I need to establish contingencies for the broker contract. Two prospects viewed the boat last weekend and I don't think it will last long, although sales people use FIGS "fear-indifference-greed-sense of urgency to their advantage." Someone plans to come from the west coast to see it April 9 and has already arranged a surveyor. The owner has already shown in the past he will not go lower than the price I am offering, $115K. He declined $110K and probably paid nearly that for haul-out and winter heated storage when the season ended. It turns out from the Coast Guard documentation he paid $110K for it in 2015, it already had the new engine and since then a few of the systems below have failed and not been R/R. The systems not being replaced and the fact it is not the modern super bright well lit interior has impeded a sail. Probably if he had listed it higher and then agreed to a lower offer he would have sold it already. People like to bargain. 

-personal inspection: done. The building was very dark and it was too cold for them to open the big door to let light in as the giant building is kept at 55 degrees.

-survey: it's had a recent one that identified the AC and refer need replacing and there is no holding tank. I would plan to be present in person for this. 

-engine survey: may not be possible in a reasonable time frame 

-sea trial: the broker has allowed can include taking it 60 miles to Cleveland by holding back a deposit. Does a sea-trial mean that if the buyer just doesn't like it there is    a last minute "this is a stupid idea" escape route and the deposit of 10% is returned? 

-availability of appropriate insurance: ??? That took two weeks on the ancient B-40 and made me lose interest. I don't think I can get an estimate in a few days. The          insurance person is getting a quote for me

Other items I am not thinking of? 

 

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1 minute ago, Caliente said:

Now that the personal inspection has been done and I was gut-hooked after only a few minutes, finding no obvious deal-breakers after three hours of poking around in the semi-dark building with a flashlight, I need to establish contingencies for the broker contract.

 

The conditions of sale--the contingencies-- will determine what your get-out-of-jail options are. Realistically, the sea trail is just a test of the engine, and if the engine behaves as it should, you won't necessarily have a way to get out.

There is no reason that anything about the way the boat sails will get you out of the deal. It is a well-known design, with known sailing properties.

If you try to put too many conditions on the sale, you probably won't get it. This guy is way under water on the sale if he did all the work after paying $110k for it.

If you want it, buy it. Put an engine contingency on the deal.

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3 hours ago, Panoramix said:

Minimal draft is good for cruising. IMO a modern twin keel is the best solution if you don't want moving appendages (which is a fair point). The only place where the centreboard boat wins over twin keels is in areas without tides.

Not quite sure I follow?

We have tides here in Maryland, but not a lot. If you mean boats that dry out at low tide, I don't think that exists in the USA anywhere I know of*. If I had a 6 foot or over draft I would only be able to come and go near high tide. With a centerboard I can come and go anytime.

* at least not on purpose :rolleyes:

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2 minutes ago, accnick said:

The conditions of sale--the contingencies-- will determine what your get-out-of-jail options are. Realistically, the sea trail is just a test of the engine, and if the engine behaves as it should, you won't necessarily have a way to get out.

There is no reason that anything about the way the boat sails will get you out of the deal. It is a well-known design, with known sailing properties.

If you try to put too many conditions on the sale, you probably won't get it. This guy is way under water on the sale if he did all the work after paying $110k for it.

If you want it, buy it. Put an engine contingency on the deal.

Right - Problems are things that don't work If you think the boat is slow or something, too bad.

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1 hour ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Not quite sure I follow?

We have tides here in Maryland, but not a lot. If you mean boats that dry out at low tide, I don't think that exists in the USA anywhere I know of*. If I had a 6 foot or over draft I would only be able to come and go near high tide. With a centerboard I can come and go anytime.

* at least not on purpose :rolleyes:

If you have tides, sometimes the twin keeler - despite being shallower than a fin keel and not that much deeper than a Ted Hood style boat - will have to wait a bit more for the flow which is a drawback indeed. Nevertheless it is all about tradeoffs and the twin keeler as many qualities that IMO makes it the best shallow draft option with fixed appendages :

Once in the twin keel might touch the bottom at low tide but that's ok as it was designed to do so. Crushing crabs with a twinkeeler is alright at low speed as the keels won't mind unlike the hull of the shallower centreboard boats.

The twin-keeler will always be able to sail on all points of sail.

More importantly, it will sail as well for cruising purposes as the fin keel. By this I mean that there are boats here that can be bought as a twin keel or a fin keel and when you race the two the fin keel gets in first with the twin keel shortly behind, the difference is small enough that a good crew on the twin keel will get in before an average crew sailing the fin keel. On a cruising boat that is nearly always sailed below its max potential, most people won't notice the difference.

The only scenario that is really bad for a twin-keeler is no tides and some very shallow bar to pass as it will stay outside but except this they are versatile cruising boats, it is a shame that the Brits insisted on building them wrong for a long time as twin-keeler now have an image problem!

fora-marine-rm-1050-58871050173153696949

1.6m draft (5ft 4in), not bad for a boat that sails well and will get in many places... Thge wing keel won't be muich shallower!

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7 hours ago, Panoramix said:

If you have tides, sometimes the twin keeler - despite being shallower than a fin keel and not that much deeper than a Ted Hood style boat - will have to wait a bit more for the flow which is a drawback indeed. Nevertheless it is all about tradeoffs and the twin keeler as many qualities that IMO makes it the best shallow draft option with fixed appendages :

Once in the twin keel might touch the bottom at low tide but that's ok as it was designed to do so. Crushing crabs with a twinkeeler is alright at low speed as the keels won't mind unlike the hull of the shallower centreboard boats.

The twin-keeler will always be able to sail on all points of sail.

More importantly, it will sail as well for cruising purposes as the fin keel. By this I mean that there are boats here that can be bought as a twin keel or a fin keel and when you race the two the fin keel gets in first with the twin keel shortly behind, the difference is small enough that a good crew on the twin keel will get in before an average crew sailing the fin keel. On a cruising boat that is nearly always sailed below its max potential, most people won't notice the difference.

The only scenario that is really bad for a twin-keeler is no tides and some very shallow bar to pass as it will stay outside but except this they are versatile cruising boats, it is a shame that the Brits insisted on building them wrong for a long time as twin-keeler now have an image problem!

fora-marine-rm-1050-58871050173153696949

1.6m draft (5ft 4in), not bad for a boat that sails well and will get in many places... Thge wing keel won't be muich shallower!

OK, somebody's gotta be the dick and say it - this thread was about choices between pretty, traditional boats - not twisted up hulls like that!:lol:

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