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Bermuda 40 vs Swan 44?


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The J/40 is a great recommendation, it checks all the boxes for sure. There is a beautiful one in Maine for $79K, but it has an offer already awaiting survey and 40 people waiting in line if it is rejected. $40K less than the Hinckley and has many advantages: better performance, better galley, nice sails, bright teak interior, two heads (I am not in favor of sharing a head with another couple,) $500 less for a slip, little exterior teak, meets the 40' limit for many local marinas etc. 

 

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1990/j-boats-j-40-3818150/

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The McCurdy & Rhodes designed SW-42 and SW-51 sail extremely well, especially the deep keel versions, and more especially the few competition versions. My SW-42 sailed like a dream. They are very

The B40 is a very old design. They have the same waterline length that my 35 foot boat has, is slower, and less roomy below. Many of them have the archaic "use the icebox as a chart table" layout that

The J/40 is a great boat.   She will provide terrific sailing on the Great Lakes, and if your plans change, she will also be a nice cruising boat to explore the Bahamas and beyond.   We have a J/110. 

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9 minutes ago, BOKSAROX said:

Swan 44 VIXEN for sale in Jamestown, RI with Berthon.  Well maintained, and has modifications to rudder and S&S bustle.  

Isn't the OP planning on a Great Loop? That would cut out any Swan I know of. We also may do a Great Loop one day and are not looking at any boats that draw over 5 feet board up.

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7 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Isn't the OP planning on a Great Loop? That would cut out any Swan I know of. We also may do a Great Loop one day and are not looking at any boats that draw over 5 feet board up.

Not planning a Great Loop and never was, but living in Cleveland it would be half of one to get to the Bahamas. I have mentioned above that plan doesn’t seem practical. I think the confusion comes from seeing the swan 44 in Michigan with a rotten mast step would make a good great loop vessel because it’s too expensive to fix to hold a rig, I was jesting

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The nice J/40 became available just now when the buyer backed out of the deal. I put a deposit on it. 
 

And now the Hinckley is back on the market for the same reason, I guess the moral of the story is to be polite with the broker on a pending sale boat. I’m two for two on deals falling through by other buyers and that surprises me.
 

Survey one year ago, like new sails geared for single handling (blade jib,) re-powered, stored inside eight months per year, nice upgrades- very happy with this one and the advice that led me to the J/40. 

8DCA5A5A-C939-48AC-BB83-CA82B990FE0F.jpeg

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12 minutes ago, Caliente said:

The nice J/40 became available just now when the buyer backed out of the deal. I put a deposit on it. 
 

And now the Hinckley is back on the market for the same reason, I guess the moral of the story is to be polite with the broker on a pending sale boat. I’m two for two on deals falling through by other buyers and that surprises me.
 

Survey one year ago, like new sails geared for single handling (blade jib,) re-powered, stored inside eight months per year, nice upgrades- very happy with this one and the advice that led me to the J/40. 

8DCA5A5A-C939-48AC-BB83-CA82B990FE0F.jpeg

Nice!

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15 minutes ago, Caliente said:

The nice J/40 became available just now when the buyer backed out of the deal. I put a deposit on it. 
 

And now the Hinckley is back on the market for the same reason, I guess the moral of the story is to be polite with the broker on a pending sale boat. I’m two for two on deals falling through by other buyers and that surprises me.
 

Survey one year ago, like new sails geared for single handling (blade jib,) re-powered, stored inside eight months per year, nice upgrades- very happy with this one and the advice that led me to the J/40. 

8DCA5A5A-C939-48AC-BB83-CA82B990FE0F.jpeg

Those are good boats.

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1 hour ago, Caliente said:

Not planning a Great Loop and never was, but living in Cleveland it would be half of one to get to the Bahamas. I have mentioned above that plan doesn’t seem practical. I think the confusion comes from seeing the swan 44 in Michigan with a rotten mast step would make a good great loop vessel because it’s too expensive to fix to hold a rig, I was jesting

Actually if you go on the Great Loop forums, de-rigged sailboats are a thing, they have figured out they use far less fuel than most trawlers, let alone fast powerboats.

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1 hour ago, Caliente said:

The nice J/40 became available just now when the buyer backed out of the deal. I put a deposit on it. 
 

And now the Hinckley is back on the market for the same reason, I guess the moral of the story is to be polite with the broker on a pending sale boat. I’m two for two on deals falling through by other buyers and that surprises me.
 

Survey one year ago, like new sails geared for single handling (blade jib,) re-powered, stored inside eight months per year, nice upgrades- very happy with this one and the advice that led me to the J/40. 

8DCA5A5A-C939-48AC-BB83-CA82B990FE0F.jpeg

NICE BOAT :D

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44 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Actually if you go on the Great Loop forums, de-rigged sailboats are a thing, they have figured out they use far less fuel than most trawlers, let alone fast powerboats.

Yes, that’s why I said it. But the Swan 44 has a deep draft and would still be a $35K white elephant. Most going that route are not using premium marquees to cut off the mast and be motor only cruisers. 

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On 4/9/2021 at 6:15 PM, Caliente said:

Many of the contrarian financial types I have been listening to are predicting an apocalyptic currency reset after hyperinflation. No doubt difficult times to be in the insurance business. 

I can't see how hyperinflation can happen considering the high level of debt everybody is in. Hiking interests rates to pre 2008 levels would lead to hyperdeflation!

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22 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

I can't see how hyperinflation can happen considering the high level of debt everybody is in. Hiking interests rates to pre 2008 levels would lead to hyperdeflation!

The Fed is pretty closely watching for signs of inflation and has a huge ramp to raise interest rates.  But as long as bankers and hedge fund managers remain greedy idiots there is always a risk of economic turmoil.  And, frankly, I've rarely met a banker who was half as smart as he thought he was.  

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The economy has been on life support since 2008, interest rates have been near zero since-this is the big gun to stimulate the economy. Now the only thing left is to print currency and forbearance of mortgage payments. We are nearing the end of a long financial cycle and there is no way out. Enjoy the decline!

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The underwear came with the woman and the woman is self-sufficient. Same woman yesterday catching a grouper from her own fishing boat, launched from her nice house on the waterfront in Samar:

C1913F78-9B82-4166-8C9F-63FE7AF69229.jpeg

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Things are moving along in a positive direction. This time Markel came back with a timely quote, in the $800 per year range covering the Great Lakes region. That's a lot better than $3000 for Annapolis and the east coast I was quoted for the B40 of identical price. Wow, it's giving me flashbacks as to how much more boat I am getting with the J/40 than the B40 :)I've been looking for a suitable dinghy, and I have settled on a 2016 Shellback built by a maritime instructor in Buffalo. It is in new condition. 

The only problem seems to be arranging transport for the J/40. After looking at the length of the trip, a lot of it motoring including eight days on the Erie Canal I decided it might be a good idea to ship it by truck, however the boat industry is doing well and transport may be delayed until early June. Surveyors are also in high demand and my broker pulled some strings to get the survey moved up from mid May to next week. 

Here is a Shellback dinghy looking identical to the one in Buffalo, they are good rowers, towers, and great sailing dinghies. Weight is about 100 pounds. 

shellback1.jpg

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2 hours ago, Caliente said:

Things are moving along in a positive direction. This time Markel came back with a timely quote, in the $800 per year range covering the Great Lakes region. That's a lot better than $3000 for Annapolis and the east coast I was quoted for the B40 of identical price. Wow, it's giving me flashbacks as to how much more boat I am getting with the J/40 than the B40 :)I've been looking for a suitable dinghy, and I have settled on a 2016 Shellback built by a maritime instructor in Buffalo. It is in new condition. 

The only problem seems to be arranging transport for the J/40. After looking at the length of the trip, a lot of it motoring including eight days on the Erie Canal I decided it might be a good idea to ship it by truck, however the boat industry is doing well and transport may be delayed until early June. Surveyors are also in high demand and my broker pulled some strings to get the survey moved up from mid May to next week. 

Here is a Shellback dinghy looking identical to the one in Buffalo, they are good rowers, towers, and great sailing dinghies. Weight is about 100 pounds. 

shellback1.jpg

The Shellback is a really nice dinghy. It is big (11'), which is why it rows and sails so well. It doesn't have the very  high initial stability of a RIB, and won't be a 20-knot terror like my 9' aluminum ABI if you decide to put an outboard on it, but as you say it rows well, tows well, and can carry a fair amount of load.

The smaller Nutshell has similar lines and beam, but is about 20" shorter and has a transom bow. Think of it sort of like a Shellback with the pointed bow cut off.

There are a lot of Shellbacks and Nutshells where we keep our boat in Maine.

A whole bunch of builders sell both boats, which were designed by Joel White.

 

PS: I would truck your boat. It saves a massive amount of time and wear and tear on everything, even though it is a pain to prep a boat properly for trucking.

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On 4/8/2021 at 6:26 PM, Beer Can said:

I, too, love the looks of the old Hinckleys but haven't sailed on them.  One thing I have heard is that the Hinckley's don't point that well, in contrast to the S&S Swans (pretty much all the S&S boats perform upwind very well).  I imagine the Hinckley's would be a bit less demanding short-handed.  The Hinckley wins for looks in my humble opinion.  I am not a fan of shoal draft boats (for performance reasons) but if that is important to you I guess I get it.  The Swan wins for performance.  My Swan was so well-built that I never thought much about her being more than 40 years old.  I imagine the Hinckley is much the same in that regard.

Good luck.

The McCurdy & Rhodes designed SW-42 and SW-51 sail extremely well, especially the deep keel versions, and more especially the few competition versions. My SW-42 sailed like a dream. They are very different from the Tripp designs. The interiors are lovely, the cockpits are very friendly to women. Upwind in snot my wife would just tuck herself under the dodger to leeward and smile at the fact that she had married this idiot who actually enjoyed this. They have better natural lighting than most Swans I've been on. Importantly, my wife loved ours. 

At the end of one season, on the last launch ride in, my wife was visible tearing up as we rode the launch in. I went out for one last grab, the pretty young lady driving the launch asked if everything was OK. I explained this was a regular occurrence, that she just loved the boat so much that it was very emotional going back to our regular lives. 

I've always thought of the smaller Swans as "guy boats". 

I would have happily sailed my SW-42 for the rest of my life had not a beautiful Brooklin Boatyard/Alden custom waved her enticing varnished transom and seduced me. 

56 minutes ago, accnick said:

The Shellback is a really nice dinghy. It is big (11'), which is why it rows and sails so well. It doesn't have the very  high initial stability of a RIB, and won't be a 20-knot terror like my 9' aluminum ABI if you decide to put an outboard on it, but as you say it rows well, tows well, and can carry a fair amount of load.

The smaller Nutshell has similar lines and beam, but is about 20" shorter and has a transom bow. Think of it sort of like a Shellback with the pointed bow cut off.

There are a lot of Shellbacks and Nutshells where we keep our boat in Maine.

A whole bunch of builders sell both boats, which were designed by Joel White.

 

PS: I would truck your boat. It saves a massive amount of time and wear and tear on everything, even though it is a pain to prep a boat properly for trucking.

I have a Trinka 10 with the sailing rigs. It really rows, tows and sails beautifull, and is beautifully built. Neither cheap nor light. 

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34 minutes ago, Cruisin Loser said:

 

I have a Trinka 10 with the sailing rigs. Neither cheap nor light. 

Those are the Trinka's only flaws. They are actually built in the town where I live in FL.

The Trinka 10 has a nominal weight 35 lb more than the Shellback before you add options such as the teak floorboards. Shellback weights probably vary from builder to builder.

Two older folk (like me and my 90 lb wife) can carry an empty Shellback short distances. The Trinka is just enough heavier for that not to be practical for us.

They are lovely boats, however.

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On 3/28/2021 at 9:54 AM, Caliente said:

Topic drift: I don’t know why anyone would use butyl for a hull to deck joint. A deck is not going to be removed for repair ha. Devil’s glue is fine for this. Drill and fill only prevents core rot, it doesn’t keep a penetration from leaking. And sikaflex does not retain elasticity as butyl does. 

I know this was raised a while ago, but my experience with butyl tape doesn't seem to match yours.  Maybe there are widely different types, and it looks like our experience is in very different temperature regimes (I'm in Florida, you Ohio), but while I like butyl tape for temporary sealing of things before "real" repair, my experience is that it loses elasticity and hardens up over a decade or two, then leaks if there is any movement.  This is exacerbated by exposure to any sunlight.

I used to repair a fair number of 70s Hunters that had the aluminum toenails bedded with butyl tape.  They leaked badly very soon, but I'm pretty sure that was because of stupid installation.  Looked like the tape was stuck down, the toenail set on top, then holes drilled through the deck and bolts inserted.  Lovely "washers" of fiberglass dust around each bolt, keeping the butyl tape from doing any good.

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10 hours ago, SVArcturus said:

I know this was raised a while ago, but my experience with butyl tape doesn't seem to match yours.  Maybe there are widely different types, and it looks like our experience is in very different temperature regimes (I'm in Florida, you Ohio), but while I like butyl tape for temporary sealing of things before "real" repair, my experience is that it loses elasticity and hardens up over a decade or two, then leaks if there is any movement.  This is exacerbated by exposure to any sunlight.

I used to repair a fair number of 70s Hunters that had the aluminum toenails bedded with butyl tape.  They leaked badly very soon, but I'm pretty sure that was because of stupid installation.  Looked like the tape was stuck down, the toenail set on top, then holes drilled through the deck and bolts inserted.  Lovely "washers" of fiberglass dust around each bolt, keeping the butyl tape from doing any good.

Yes that would be improper installation. It is very important to pre-drill the holes, drill and fill,  and chamfer the edge. 

Good tutorial:

https://marinehowto.com/bed-it-tape/

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Survey Wednesday! It will be squeezed into an afternoon as the surveyor added it on to a morning survey the same day, on the request of the broker to avoid a month delay in performing a survey. 

Added to that, with trucking the boat 500 miles it is impractical financially to put it in the water for a sea-trial, so the motor will only be tested on a hose without being under load, not ideal at all. But the several thousands of dollars to commission and decommission the boat will go toward preparing for trucking. This of course is nerve-wracking but almost universally this is the approach taken according to multiple sources. I'd like to hear opinions on whether this is just a really bad idea to not splash the boat and check the various systems in the water especially the rig and engine. It has almost new instruments and the autopilot has recently been worked on.

Therefore, any suggestions on how to maximize the survey time and especially weak points to watch for on the J Boat and indeed any 30 year old boat would be welcome. Some items I have found on reviewing J Boats: 

-the original Harken lower rudder bearing is prone to failure and the recommended replacement part is $2500

-the chain and wire steering mechanism is often neglected and the idler plate prior to 2004 is prone to galvanic corrosion and failure due to improper bedding and incompatible metals, after 2004 the plate and associated hardware is all aluminum. This can also lead to core rot in the deck aft of the traveler. About a $4500 repair. 

-there are various other areas where the J/40 is prone to high moisture in the core. Especially around the genoa tracks and chain plates. In prior surveys there has been some question of moisture in various areas which ultimately was felt to not need immediate attention. 

-the through-hull for the speed transducer if Raymarine has a plug and can freeze between the valves if not drained when winterized

-hoses under the pedestal, holding tank hoses difficult to replace. $1700 just for the four under the pedestal

-should the yard/owner provide the work orders from the years of ownership? 

-the cabin sole is a total PITA to replace and this one has a little dark wood on the edges by the settees supposedly from water tanks weeping when heeled

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51 minutes ago, Caliente said:

-hoses under the pedestal, holding tank hoses difficult to replace. $1700 just for the four under the pedestal

 

Unless the boat has about 150 feet of hose, how the hell are you spending that much money :unsure:

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1 hour ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Unless the boat has about 150 feet of hose, how the hell are you spending that much money :unsure:

Saw it in the J/40 owners site. $1700 for four hoses under the pedestal, and that was with the pedestal out to repair the core under the pedestal. Seems crazy high to me also but that was the yard bill for that item. 

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Just got a phone call from the broker, survey delayed until Friday due to rain storms predicted Friday. Good thing I am retired... 

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Just now, Caliente said:

Saw it in the J/40 owners site. $1700 for four hoses under the pedestal, and that was with the pedestal out to repair the core under the pedestal. Seems crazy high to me also but that was the yard bill for that item. 

OK then, the cost of the actual piece of hose was trivial, but it took a lot of time to run them. Back when I did that kind of thing, it was like $200 worth of hoses and clamps and $1,000 labor. This is one reason I can go a decade or two between anyone working on my boat but me.

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Your former owner may or may not have the yard bills, after 20 years, I sure don't. The purpose of a survey is much like that of inspecting a house; to identify hidden reasons you should NOT buy it, and document that condition for insurance. 

If you have doubts before survey, that's a hint you probably want to re-think. 

If the survey (which is essentially an audit of the listing,) comes back with no unexpected problems, that's what you want. If it finds unstated problems, then you can discuss the adjustment of the contract. Either walk away, require proof of resolution or reduction of price sufficient to pay for your to have it done. 

One of the questions once you have boat on a transport trailer, is do you want it delivered to the launch point, or do you want it taken to a place where it's likely cheaper to have work done, and then later move it to launch when that has been done. Back in the '00s when I lived in NH, I had Lioness stored over winter alongside my garage, so I could work on her. Cheaper than paying a yard to store, and dealing with issues of adjacent boats, inadequate power, tools left behind etc. I was considering having her refurbished in Baddeck NS, as their labor rates over the winter were ~$10/hr, and included inside storage, vs $60+ in Portsmouth.  Would have meant returning to the Bras d'Or lakes and getting a ride home, but that's a lovely trip. 

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8 hours ago, Caliente said:

Therefore, any suggestions on how to maximize the survey time and especially weak points to watch for on the J Boat and indeed any 30 year old boat would be welcome.

You mentioned that you checked with the J/40 owner's group. You might also want to check with the J/4x mailing list. Many J/40 owners hang out there.

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10 hours ago, Caliente said:

Survey Wednesday! It will be squeezed into an afternoon as the surveyor added it on to a morning survey the same day, on the request of the broker to avoid a month delay in performing a survey. 

Added to that, with trucking the boat 500 miles it is impractical financially to put it in the water for a sea-trial, so the motor will only be tested on a hose without being under load, not ideal at all. But the several thousands of dollars to commission and decommission the boat will go toward preparing for trucking. This of course is nerve-wracking but almost universally this is the approach taken according to multiple sources. I'd like to hear opinions on whether this is just a really bad idea to not splash the boat and check the various systems in the water especially the rig and engine. It has almost new instruments and the autopilot has recently been worked on.

Therefore, any suggestions on how to maximize the survey time and especially weak points to watch for on the J Boat and indeed any 30 year old boat would be welcome. Some items I have found on reviewing J Boats: 

-the original Harken lower rudder bearing is prone to failure and the recommended replacement part is $2500

 

-there are various other areas where the J/40 is prone to high moisture in the core. Especially around the genoa tracks and chain plates. In prior surveys there has been some question of moisture in various areas which ultimately was felt to not need immediate attention. 

 

-the cabin sole is a total PITA to replace and this one has a little dark wood on the edges by the settees supposedly from water tanks weeping when heeled

When I bought my boat it was out of the water, rig out and a $400 truck ride each way to get launched.  I opted not to launch the boat but was fortunate that a previous buyer had gone through that trouble and I had the report from the mechanic who did the sea trial.  It took some of the risk out, but not all.  We did run the engine with a hose on land but without any load, it really doesn't tell you much.  Ultimately it worked out, but I do have some issues with the engine under WOT (black soot in the exhaust).  My mechanic here believes the injectors should be serviced and I will likely have that done.  Only way to have found that would have been to do the sea trial myself.  If I replace the injectors it would still cost about the same as it would have for me to launch and sea trial the boat myself.  I guess you place your bet and roll the dice.....   

I don't think there is any way to verify the bearings need work without pulling the rudder.  If it is tight with no slop and turns easily, then most likely you are good, but something to consider.  

The tanks should be checked.  I suppose you could get some leakage from the inspection ports in the tank but I would investigate that a bit further.  

I really think the biggest issues with J boats is water intrusion into the core so that would be my focus.  Atleast it was when I was shopping.  The hardware and equipment is all likely getting up in age so any component over 20 years old is overdue for replacement.  The boats were generally well built (to a price point) and equipped with higher quality gear than most production boats.  It is not a Hinckley or Swan, but it is better than most production boats and will sail really nicely.  

Good luck and keep us updated...

T

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On 4/8/2021 at 2:05 AM, slap said:

It's always cheaper to rent than own........

if it flies, floats or f*cks...

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The J/40 is a great boat.   She will provide terrific sailing on the Great Lakes, and if your plans change, she will also be a nice cruising boat to explore the Bahamas and beyond.   We have a J/110.   The J/Boats build quality is good.   But they will not be as 'bulletproof' as a classic plastic yacht, J/Boats always aimed for light weight boats to maximize performance, even in their cruising boats.   Water intrusion in the deck is the biggest worry, and some is to be expected.   As you state above, most of this can be repaired.   Deck gel coat crazing seems to be common problem.  Ours had some when I bought it 12 years ago, and it has gotten a little worse, but it is only cosmetic.   We have (knock on wood) not had any moisture problems in the deck other than a small amount by the anchor chain hawse pipe and the flagpole socket on the transom.   The stanchions and genoa tracks have all stayed tight.   I've sailed a J/37C extensively, which is closer to the J/40, and they sail really well.  Surprisingly well, even when loaded with a lot of cruising gear.   There will be some surprises in the survey (there always are) and likely a few things you learn in the first month of ownership that are disappointing, but remember you are buying a 30+ year old boat for 20% of the cost of a new boat.  You can replace a lot of worn out parts and still be way, way ahead.   And a J/40 will sail as well as any 40' racer/cruiser you can buy today.   I hope the purchase and delivery go smoothly!

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I would not automatically assume plugged injectors without some verification. You could have worn rings, indicating a rebuild is in your future. Put it in the water and see if it will make rated RPM at full throttle. If it won't, have a mechanic run a full throttle compression check. Smoking exhaust from plugged injectors often clears up after running hard for an hour or so.

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On 3/24/2021 at 9:20 PM, Caliente said:

At least two of the B-40s now for sale have circumnavigated. At least two of the B-40s for sale now have been lived on by a couple for ten years straight.  This is surprising to me. I have even seen Baby Swan 36s that have circumnavigated, one is for sale. That is a more economical choice I could still live with.  I’m pretty sure the same is true for the Swan 44 despite the draft.  Now, if I was only going to the Bahamas or gunk-holing the Chesapeake I would choose a shoal draft boat. But I am not sure of the future, and I am used to making decisions on the best information available so maybe that would favor one or another, the consensus seems to be for the Swan. Changing boats can get expensive. 

I’m getting advice it is better to be in a shallow harbor with a big boat than big seas with a little boat, and that the Big Swan is very livable. There is a giant marina in Subic Bay $300 per month, so I could live there and explore Asia in the future for example. 

I am a little surprised there is not more fervor for the B-40 even though it is less practical. That speaks volumes for the Swan.

 

Listen, after sailing the Bahamas for over a decade we sold our Sabre 38. We decided to charter every place we want to sail, except the Bahamas. For the Bahamas, local sailing, and racing, we got an S2 7.9. It has a 13” draft with the board up, and we put a pull down with a releasing cam cleat on the swing rudder. She sails like a witch, also, and can go ANYWHERE. A couple of days at anchor, couple of days drunk in a resort, couple of days in a marina is how we cruise the Bahamas, as a rule. At that price point and draft, you can go anyplace and spend whatever you want, and you never need to work on the boat. We enjoy it. 

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On 3/25/2021 at 8:27 AM, accnick said:

but don't let anyone tell you that you can't cruise the Bahamas with 7' of draft. 

 

 

yes.

But equally dont let anyone tell you you can't go anywhere you ever could want to go in a B40 - look up what the B40 Rhodora  - Bob & Beth Lux - did . . . . hint CCA Blue Water medal.  And Bob essentially single handed the sailing part.

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29 minutes ago, estarzinger said:

yes.

But equally dont let anyone tell you you can't go anywhere you ever could want to go in a B40 - look up what the B40 Rhodora  - Bob & Beth Lux - did . . . . hint CCA Blue Water medal.  And Bob essentially single handed the sailing part.

Absolutely!

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Falmouth Maine is a beautiful place, I arrived a little early and started poking around the boat. Overall, the boat is about what I expected but I was hoping for a little less crazing on the deck gelcoat. People say this is the brand of gelcoat they use but this is nine years before that era of gelcoat and seems as much their manufacturing as the gelcoat quality. There is no comparison to the Hinckley in condition or hardware. The hull is so poorly faired that the shape of the balsa core blocks is plainly visible in dozens of places. 

Just tapped out the hull. There is a 12x24” high moisture dull thud area above and below the waterline on the port side and below the toe-rail 12” x 12’ starboard with very high moisture readings but normal percussion. Further the rudder has high moisture and dullness to percussion aft of midline which worsens toward the bottom.

Not looking good so far.


 

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2 hours ago, Caliente said:

Falmouth Maine is a beautiful place, I arrived a little early and started poking around the boat. Overall, the boat is about what I expected but I was hoping for a little less crazing on the deck gelcoat. People say this is the brand of gelcoat they use but this is nine years before that era of gelcoat and seems as much their manufacturing as the gelcoat quality. There is no comparison to the Hinckley in condition or hardware. The hull is so poorly faired that the shape of the balsa core blocks is plainly visible in dozens of places. 

Just tapped out the hull. There is a 12x24” high moisture dull thud area above and below the waterline on the port side and below the toe-rail 12” x 12’ starboard with very high moisture readings but normal percussion. Further the rudder has high moisture and dullness to percussion aft of midline which worsens toward the bottom.

Not looking good so far.


 

The Maine Curse :(

In another thread about Maine I just back from looking at a boat with the decks all crazed to hell. My 48 year-old boat has a bit of crazing, but apparently a lot less than newer boats :unsure:

Anyway, whatever issues Bermuda 40s have, they were built well and go about anyplace including The Loop.

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image.thumb.jpeg.66f1e930058e925a9be2066b351f97b9.jpegWorth reading the whole thread, this is the moisture meter used by the surveyor and he says it is the best of all he has tried. $40 at Home Depot. Next time I will do a self-survey prior to paying $28 per foot for a legal survey. 

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2 minutes ago, Caliente said:

And of course now the Hinckley is sold! 

If you don't REALLY need a boat, you might wait until next year when all the old boats that got snapped up for twice the normal price are back on the market at 50% off when the owners realize how much work is involved :rolleyes:

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14 minutes ago, Caliente said:

image.thumb.jpeg.66f1e930058e925a9be2066b351f97b9.jpegWorth reading the whole thread, this is the moisture meter used by the surveyor and he says it is the best of all he has tried. $40 at Home Depot. Next time I will do a self-survey prior to paying $28 per foot for a legal survey. 

Just ordered one. I curse my solid hull on really hot and cold days and otherwise love the lack of wood in the middle of it. It will be too hot and too cold and flexible and not full of water 100 years from now :)

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3 hours ago, Caliente said:

image.thumb.jpeg.66f1e930058e925a9be2066b351f97b9.jpegWorth reading the whole thread, this is the moisture meter used by the surveyor and he says it is the best of all he has tried. $40 at Home Depot. Next time I will do a self-survey prior to paying $28 per foot for a legal survey. 

Klein screwdrivers are THE BEST!

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https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1999/j-boats-j-42-3602772/
 

J42 is a much better looking boat than the 40 IMO.  Very sought after, hence high prices.  This one is reasonably priced... perhaps there is a reason, but worth a look I should think.  Also there are a few j44s at a reasonable price.  Those are fabulous boats that still look great and have stood up to time performance wise.  

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4 hours ago, eliboat said:

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1999/j-boats-j-42-3602772/
 

J42 is a much better looking boat than the 40 IMO.  Very sought after, hence high prices.  This one is reasonably priced... perhaps there is a reason, but worth a look I should think. 

I wish someone would by Triomphe and give her a good home. She's been for sale for ages. Needs a lot of work, but if you're into it, she could be a very good deal.

More about Triomphehttps://groups.google.com/g/j4x-owners-group/c/evh6PTlE5Yw/m/7j0-52EUAQAJ

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On 4/23/2021 at 6:25 AM, Caliente said:

Falmouth Maine is a beautiful place, I arrived a little early and started poking around the boat. Overall, the boat is about what I expected but I was hoping for a little less crazing on the deck gelcoat. People say this is the brand of gelcoat they use but this is nine years before that era of gelcoat and seems as much their manufacturing as the gelcoat quality. There is no comparison to the Hinckley in condition or hardware. The hull is so poorly faired that the shape of the balsa core blocks is plainly visible in dozens of places. 

Just tapped out the hull. There is a 12x24” high moisture dull thud area above and below the waterline on the port side and below the toe-rail 12” x 12’ starboard with very high moisture readings but normal percussion. Further the rudder has high moisture and dullness to percussion aft of midline which worsens toward the bottom.

Not looking good so far.


 

Something is weird here...having looked at 100's of J/boats on the hard, I've never seen one where "the hull is so poorly faired that the shape of the balsa core blocks is plainly visible in dozens of places"

That doesn't mean to imply that isn't what you found, but I'd say it is well outside the norm.  Maybe the boat has already been "peeled" to some level and not properly re-glassed and faired???

Having repaired a significant portion of the deck of an S2 9.1 that had been mapped by a surveyor with both moisture meter and percussion, I can honestly state that while 80% accurate, the meter did detect areas of high moisture that when cut open proved to be previous repairs with solid epoxy, and area that tapped out as totally delaminated that were, if fact, still well adhered.  Again, most (80% or so) of the mapping was accurate.  But not all of it was.  The only way to know for sure what is going on in there was to drill/cut into the core/thru the skin and see what was actually going on.

The newest J-40 is approaching 30 years old.  The oldest is approaching 40.  To have to make some repairs to the core of a boat that age isn't necessarily to be unexpected.  I get that you may not want to buy such a boat.  That's ok, and is your call.  But for the era, it's not unusual nor unexpected.  S2, which has a great reputation for build quality had the same issues.  So did Pearson, and Tarten and many others of that time frame.

Plus a J-40 will sail rings around a Hinckley 40.  Even a J-40 whose entire core is soaking wet.  Not to say "sailing performance" is king.  The B-40 is a great boat.  All boats are a compromise.  The J-40 means one set of compromises, the B-40 means a different set of compromises.  But there are ALWAYS compromises.

Good Luck!

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Having 'print through' of the core is a sign of excess heat. There is NO fairing on the outer skin of a J boat, they are all built in female molds. Heat causes the resin to shrink further - and the kerf cuts in the balsa form vertical walls in the laminate, which prevent the skin from shrinking. So you get squares showing on the surface. This is normally only happens to lightly built boats (racers), and usually when the original color was white, but have been re-painted dark. Have been told that dark colors require extra laminate because of this

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Some interesting points have been raised. The Bermuda 40 has been off the table for quite a while for me. I think everyone would agree that a pristine J/42 is more valuable than a pristine J/40 and far more expensive.  For me, I have looked at two J Boats in a row that are in need of tens of thousands of dollars in work just in the categories of deck and hull rot/gelcoat failure. My new rule is not to drive more than three hours to inspect a J Boat, or to consider boats not on the Great Lakes already. When I looked at the J/32 the J boat dealer said J’s were only cored to the waterline, maybe I misunderstood him. 
 

I will post a picture of the J/40 dark blue hull in which a tree reflection is blurred over the block shaped areas. This boat has been Awlgrip painted in 2003, and I did not consider that high skin temperatures could cause the balsa to shrink back.  It appears cosmetic, but begs the question whether the layup in the mold was done incorrectly. I have never seen anything like it. I have a black C22 and it reads 190 degrees on the outer hull on a sunny day with an infrared pyrometer. 
 

The standard buying contracts forbid destructive testing during a survey, so I must assume any area of high moisture readings by meter to be legitimate problems. The below the waterline area also failed percussion. Any area with high moisture readings near a hull-deck joint must be regarded with suspicion. As a reference, according to the surveyor core replacement costs average $2400 per square foot. It becomes a logistical problem to have the owner fix the boat prior to acceptance, so any offer I would make has to have a large margin for error. 
 

J Boats use organic core to keep them light and stiff, a great compromise but I have mentioned my disdain for cored hulls below the waterline and now the very first cored boat I paid to have surveyed has wet core below the waterline. 
 

If I lived locally to the boat I might be more eager to take on this project, but I informed the broker my highest offer would be at least $20,000 less due to the survey and it is best just to give me back the deposit.  This boat for my use would become a project boat taking up my entire winter removing and rebedding deck hardware, fixing deck core rot areas, sanding cracked gelcoat, spraying Awlgrip on the deck and hull after fairing out the ugly spots, rebuilding the rudder... and then hoping nothing else big turns up or the 18 year old diesel doesn’t die on me. This boat is now a hard sell to A34F1404-9DBD-4C4E-89F2-8F41059F57FF.thumb.jpeg.8cae9b9d12772b8806de517c4fd2e691.jpegbuyers that prefer sailing to boat building. 

A nice J/35 would go for less than the deck and hull Awlgrip jobs alone. 

 

 

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