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Anyone use epoxy pool paint on their hulls instead of traditional bottom paint?


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I know what you're thinking. Why would anyone use pool paint when there's a whole variety of suitable paints meant for hulls?

Here's the thing. I don't need or want antifouling paint. I keep my boat in fresh water for about 5 months out of the year. It's trailerable so I pull it out every 3 or 4 weeks and clean up the bottom. Do it right next to the ramp and then put the boat back in. It's a 30 year old Precision 18 that I got just last year.

The bottom was pristine and I wanted to keep it that way. It had no bottom paint of any kind. The only problem is that I had about 3 dozen eraser head sized blisters appear in the gelcoat when I took it out in the Fall.  Maybe a dozen on the stubby keel and the rest all on the starboard side for some reason. So after doing a little research on what to do, I busted them open and ground them out. Then rinsed them and left them over the Winter to get completely dry.

We're starting to get a few warm days here and there so now I've been filling them with West Systems six10 epoxy. 

Then I'm going to have to paint with something. Traditional bottom paint looks like crap after a boat's been in the water and my wife is already not super thrilled about having a boat in the driveway. And I'd prefer not to have biocides leaching off into the lake. 

A barrier coat + Interlux VC Performance Epoxy would seem like just the thing but it's got a few downsides. It's only available in white and my boat is more of a bone or ivory color. Technically it's only meant to be submerged for 60 days at a time, though it sounds like people have gone much longer than that without issue. I've also heard that the teflon in the paint makes it very difficult if I or any future owner wanted to put on antifouling paint over it. Finally, it's not exactly cheap.

So that's what has made me wonder about pool paint. It's available in a variety of colors and I might even be able to find somebody who'll tint it. It's submerged all the time, - not just 60 days at a shot. And it's a whole lot cheaper.

Thoughts?

I haven't completely ruled out the Interlux. Just wanted to see if there were other reasonable options. I might even treat this season as an experiment and do the keel with matching pool paint and the repaired section of hull with Interlux since that's completely out of site unless you crawl underneath.

Thanks !

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9 hours ago, Max Rockatansky said:

You asking at the wrong forum... Cruisers Forum will tell you what you want to hear

Ok. Thanks. I just assumed that almost all cruisers would be using antifouling point of some sort. 

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59 minutes ago, TomSp said:

Ok. Thanks. I just assumed that almost all cruisers would be using antifouling point of some sort. 

They are. pool paint ain't that, unless your lake is treated with chlorine and biocides. have you ever run your hand along the wall of a pool and thought, "damn that is slick?"

 

20 hours ago, TomSp said:

The bottom was pristine and I wanted to keep it that way. It had no bottom paint of any kind.

yeah, and that's why you got blisters. is your boat pre-1992? at the very least you want a barrier coat - interprotect is usually a good choice. Otherwise you'll be chasing those blisters pretty much every year. if you don't think you need bottom paint, just do the barrier coat and keep up on your scrubs. otherwise, put on vc-17 and make the scrubs even easier.

As I'm typing this I'm wondering if I'm being trolled. you're seriously worried that the bottom paint would clash with your hull??

yeah, I'm being trolled. Go with the pool paint.

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28 minutes ago, ryley said:

yeah, and that's why you got blisters. is your boat pre-1992? at the very least you want a barrier coat - interprotect is usually a good choice. Otherwise you'll be chasing those blisters pretty much every year. if you don't think you need bottom paint, just do the barrier coat and keep up on your scrubs. otherwise, put on vc-17 and make the scrubs even easier.

As I'm typing this I'm wondering if I'm being trolled. you're seriously worried that the bottom paint would clash with your hull??

yeah, I'm being trolled. Go with the pool paint.

Yes, I'm serious. :)

If I'm going to go to all the work and expense of painting it, I want it to look as least as good as it looks now.  A snow white bottom with an ivory top strikes me as kinda weird.  Keep in mind that the boat spends over half of it's life in the driveway. If it was in the water year round I wouldn't care. It's stored mast up with holiday lights in the rigging so my neighbors won't think of it as an eyesore.

Well, they still might think it's an eyesore but they at least tell me looks nice.lights.thumb.png.65d224ed24d383a139aab76453fcedc2.png

Is just the barrier coat OK?  I was under the impression that it needed a topcoat of some sort.

 

 

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4 hours ago, TomSp said:

Yes, I'm serious. :)

If I'm going to go to all the work and expense of painting it, I want it to look as least as good as it looks now.  A snow white bottom with an ivory top strikes me as kinda weird.  Keep in mind that the boat spends over half of it's life in the driveway. If it was in the water year round I wouldn't care. It's stored mast up with holiday lights in the rigging so my neighbors won't think of it as an eyesore.

Well, they still might think it's an eyesore but they at least tell me looks nice.lights.thumb.png.65d224ed24d383a139aab76453fcedc2.png

Is just the barrier coat OK?  I was under the impression that it needed a topcoat of some sort.

 

 

Put Interprotect on the bottom if the boat is going to be in the water for several months a year.  It comes in two colours - grey and white.  The white would go well with your beige topsides if you have a bootstripe that joins the two colours together nicely.  A deep red would work, or black.  How do I know?  I had a beige boat and used the white Interprotect on the bottom with a deep red waterline.  It looked fine.  I painted over the white Interprotect with Shark White Micron CSC, which is actually light grey, and it still looked fine.

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52 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Natural.

screen-shot-2017-05-21-at-4-09-35-pm-png

I applaud their thinking outside the box but I believe my point about ugly bottom paint has just been made.

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15 hours ago, TomSp said:

Ok. Thanks. I just assumed that almost all cruisers would be using antifouling point of some sort. 

Here’s the thing:

SA is not the place you go to justify bad ideas when it comes to boat things. Your question has been answered: Interprotect. Sorry if your ‘aesthetic’ doesn’t agree, but IP is the standard for hull coating. It may be that International, should you contact and ask, may have tips for tinting Interprotect...

Since you are obviously searching for validation, I do genuinely suggest asking at Cruisers Forum. I am sure someone there will agree with you and probably have experience with what you want to do.

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I dunno if he's just asking for validation. Seems fairly sincere.

I certainly never tried such a thing. Pool biocide might do just the trick for around here... brackish, approx 10% the salinity of ocean water.... and for a boat that sits on a trailer a lot of the time.

You certainly don't want soft ablative anti-fouling paint on a boat that you haul out on a trailer, first of all the trailer is going to rub off a lot of it and secondly most of it loses effectiveness if it dries out.

Hard dry-out-able bottom paint is what you want. Yes it's more expensive, sorry about that.

- DSK

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2 hours ago, Max Rockatansky said:

Here’s the thing:

SA is not the place you go to justify bad ideas when it comes to boat things. Your question has been answered: Interprotect. Sorry if your ‘aesthetic’ doesn’t agree, but IP is the standard for hull coating. It may be that International, should you contact and ask, may have tips for tinting Interprotect...

Since you are obviously searching for validation, I do genuinely suggest asking at Cruisers Forum. I am sure someone there will agree with you and probably have experience with what you want to do.

I'm not trying to justify a bad idea. I was trying to figure out if it is a bad idea or not, and if it is a bad idea, - why.  

I think we all know that as soon you put "Marine" in front of a product name, the price doubles, even if what's in the product is the same.  Even so, I think I represent a small (maybe tiny) portion of the market that's perhaps not being served by the current crop of marine paints so I was looking for alternatives. 

I confess to being a bit anal about how my boat looks and maybe for no good reason in this case. But it's not just that VC Performance Epoxy only comes in white, it's also only rated for 60 days of submersion. My boat is in the water from Spring into Fall. I'm also not a racer which is who that product seems to be targeted at. Teflon coated slickness isn't a priority for me but it may help keep the bottom clean. 

Pool paint is submerged all the time. There are epoxy pool paints designed for fiberglass. And while it may truly be a bad idea for a sailboat, I haven't heard anyone who has been able to say why. Is epoxy paint designed for pools fundamentally different from epoxy paint designed for boats in some way?

A couple of folks including yourself have mentioned Interprotect which is a barrier paint and I figured I may have to use that under whatever I end up using for a topcoat whether it's VC Performance or something else. I've been told before that Interprotect has to be topcoated be maybe that's not true?

I thought SA might at least be a place to talk about ideas,  - both good and bad ("Speak Your Mind" and all that), but yep I can ask in the cruisers forum if that's a more appropriate place for this kind of question.

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On 3/24/2021 at 9:20 PM, TomSp said:

A barrier coat + Interlux VC Performance Epoxy would seem like just the thing but it's got a few downsides. It's only available in white and my boat is more of a bone or ivory color. Technically it's only meant to be submerged for 60 days at a time, though it sounds like people have gone much longer than that without issue

where in the world have you seen that documented?     there's nothing in interlux's documents that even suggests a maximum submerged time..  i have 2000E  with VC PE  on my boat for the last 1.5 years that sits in the water year round...    not one issue..      

you can get 2000E in grey and with that as an undercoat might bring down the brightness on VCPE, but who the hell looks at the bottom of their boat when sailing?  

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23 minutes ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

where in the world have you seen that documented?     there's nothing in interlux's documents that even suggests a maximum submerged time..  i have 2000E  with VC PE  on my boat for the last 1.5 years that sits in the water year round...    not one issue..      

you can get 2000E in grey and with that as an undercoat might bring down the brightness on VCPE, but who the hell looks at the bottom of their boat when sailing?  

It's on their data sheet. Maximum immersion time: 60 days, - unless I'm misinterpreting that and it has something to do with application.

Or they're just being really conservative which is possible.

Again, if Performance Epoxy holds up OK and my boat were in the water year round I wouldn't care. But the bottom is visible for all to see 7 months of the year. And just like my siding or my fence, I'd like it to look decent. 

I'm beginning to feel like a bit of a trouble maker which really wasn't my intent. I was hoping that someone had tried pool paint and could either say that it worked well or that it didn't even last a season.

But I do appreciate hearing about the good experiences people have had with both 2000E and the Performance epoxy so even though it may not end up looking quite the way I had envisioned, it might be the best in the long run.

 

 

VC_Performance_Epoxy_Technical_Datasheet.pdf

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18 minutes ago, TomSp said:

It's on their data sheet. Maximum immersion time: 60 days,

that's how long after painting you have until you get the bottom wet.

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9 minutes ago, ryley said:

that's how long after painting you have until you get the bottom wet.

Ok, then I'm an idiot. Seems like a strange way to state it. "Maximum time until Immersion" or "Must be immersed with 60 days" would make more sense.

Does putting it in water trigger something?  And then I'm assuming it's OK for it to be out of the water more than 60 days. 

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50 minutes ago, TomSp said:

Ok, then I'm an idiot. Seems like a strange way to state it. "Maximum time until Immersion" or "Must be immersed with 60 days" would make more sense.

Does putting it in water trigger something?  And then I'm assuming it's OK for it to be out of the water more than 60 days. 

I have seen several other references to the 60-day immersion thing, they all reference time in the water, not time to the water. You might have to ask Interlux about that to get a real answer.

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Youre in the wrong place, just head down to the big box store, (best place for boating gear) and pick up some latex-oxy pool paint- not many know this but its what all the top guys use and in case anyone asks heres a handy guide on how to handle it

 

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On 3/26/2021 at 2:45 PM, Ishmael said:

I have seen several other references to the 60-day immersion thing, they all reference time in the water, not time to the water. You might have to ask Interlux about that to get a real answer.

FFS.

here's a reference from Interlux's site:

Quote

 

Cause 2: A vessel left on the hard stand for a longer period will be affected by heat and sunlight. This leads to mild oxidization of the surface. It could also be affected by automotive exhaust fumes, overspray of paint and wind-blown contamination settling into the paint as it dries.

Prevention: Do not exceed the maximum immersion time for the antifouling as stated on the datasheet.

Treatment: Remove any fouling, wet sand and if possible high pressure fresh water wash, to reactivate surface.

 

Why would they put the max immersion time in the same part of the data sheet as the minimum immersion time. Are you going to make the argument that the boat needs to be in the water at least 4 days before the paint starts to work?

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Perhaps his question is not that unreasonable. You can get two part epoxy pool paint for a gelcoat surface. It is the same surface as the boat hull, is designed to be underwater forever, and pools get lots of abuse. He does not need an anti marine growth properties, just something waterproof and durable. I am not saying I know it would work, but it is not a bad question.

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7 minutes ago, ryley said:

FFS.

here's a reference from Interlux's site:

Why would they put the max immersion time in the same part of the data sheet as the minimum immersion time. Are you going to make the argument that the boat needs to be in the water at least 4 days before the paint starts to work?

No, the 4 days allows full cure of the epoxy. The only reasonable explanation of the 60 days immersion statement is that is the recommended maximum time of immersion.

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On 3/26/2021 at 12:40 PM, ryley said:

that's how long after painting you have until you get the bottom wet.

I would think it's length of time in water where you can overcoat without   sanding.   

that max statements is in the drying/overcoating section..

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1 hour ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

I would think it's length of time in water where you can overcoat without   sanding.   

that max statements is in the drying/overcoating section..

 

if you're wanting to save some money,  I've used rustoleum heavy duty enamel primer as a bottom paint..  stayed in the water year round , was able to sand to 220, and clean with a power washer..   worked just fine..   i think it was like $9.00 a quart

 

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3 minutes ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

I would think it's length of time in water where you can overcoat without   sanding.   

that max statements is in the drying/overcoating section..

That maybe makes the most sense.

At this point I think I should just contact Interlux. I'll ask them if 2000E needs to be overcoated and what exactly is meant by the max immersion time on the data sheet for their Performance Epoxy. I doubt I'll get a recommendation for pool paint from them, but I will pass on what they say. 

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2 minutes ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

 

if you're wanting to save some money,  I've used rustoleum heavy duty enamel primer as a bottom paint..  stayed in the water year round , was able to sand to 220, and clean with a power washer..   worked just fine..   i think it was like $9.00 a quart

 

Thanks for the tip, - though to be honest I'm not sure who I can take seriously based on the content of this thread. :)

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you can trust us :) 

Sounds like you are looking for a solution in the first instance and in the second maybe a way to save a few dollars,

generally speaking the marine paints are of a higher quality and fit for purpose so there is no need to second-guess how suitable they are, that said epoxy paint provided it comes from a reputable manufacturer are all pretty much of a muchness when it comes to waterproofing. Some sand easier, different open times, different levels of hardness, gloss etc.

Also, when you paint an epoxy you generally only have a day or so depending on temperature to sand it otherwise it simply gets too hard, This is the same reason that some paints need to be hot coated I.E.you apply the top coat within half an hour or so of the epoxy. it’s also the same reason why you have a limited amount of time before you can overcoat them as the epoxy just gets too hard and nothing will stick to it unless you sand it aggressively 

personally, id just use interprotect rather than try snd save $50 and be a crash test dummy

 

 

 

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17 hours ago, steele said:

Perhaps his question is not that unreasonable. You can get two part epoxy pool paint for a gelcoat surface. It is the same surface as the boat hull, is designed to be underwater forever, and pools get lots of abuse. He does not need an anti marine growth properties, just something waterproof and durable. I am not saying I know it would work, but it is not a bad question.

Not at all... I'd be interested in the cost and the result.

I think it might be a bit of a misapprehension to think that no anti-fouling is needed.

FB- Doug

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3 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Not at all... I'd be interested in the cost and the result.

I think it might be a bit of a misapprehension to think that no anti-fouling is needed.

FB- Doug

It's more the case that no anti-fouling is wanted. 

Before I bought my boat last year I was a member of a sailing club, - still am technically.  We have a mixture of daysailers and 16 foot racing scows. We also had a Vic 18 for awhile. Most of the boats had no bottom paint at all. We buy all the boats used so if they had bottom paint it was because a previous owner put it on.

They sit in the water all season long. The racing scows get flipped on their sides at the dock weekly to get their bottoms cleaned and the daysailers are supposed to be cleaned monthly, - though some of the people in charge of those boats were better about that than others.

We're not that unusual. It's pretty common for other boats kept on the lake not to have bottom paint either.  However, unless they race most of the owners don't clean the boats at all until they are pulled for the season. But if you let them go that long the slime that grows on the hull is going to be really hard to get completely off. People do enough to pass the invasive species inspection and call it good.  

So my approach to this isn't so unusual around here except that last season I had some blisters show up and now I have to do something about them. In the club we only had one older boat ever have a much of a problem with blisters. 

Now if zebra mussels ever get a foothold in these city lakes, I'm sure you'll see a lot more antifouling paint used. They've been found in lakes nearby and they can cause lots of problems. And that is one other hesitation I have with VC Performance Epoxy. If I do go ahead and put that on and then decide I really do want anti-fouling pain three years from now, is anything going to stick to it or do I have to get it completely off?

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42 minutes ago, TomSp said:

....

We're not that unusual. It's pretty common for other boats kept on the lake not to have bottom paint either.  However, unless they race most of the owners don't clean the boats at all until they are pulled for the season. But if you let them go that long the slime that grows on the hull is going to be really hard to get completely off. ...

I've been around a bunch of freshwater lakes and never seen one that wouldn't grow something that stuck to the bottom within a week or two at most.

Motorboats have it easier because they pressure-wash the bottom, as long as they get somewhat regular use.

Maybe I'm finicky about bottom surfaces but it seems to me if you have to scrub it once a month or so then putting on a surface that will reduce that to a wipe-down -and- provide a better surface for sailing meantimes anyway, then that's worth refinishing the bottom of the boat every three ~ five years.

Matter of taste as to where you want to invest your man hours.

I'd definitely be interested in the pool paint results. I kept/will keep a bunch of boats drysailed on trailers and it might be a worthwhile bit of knowledge for refinishing old daysailors less-expensively

FB- Doug

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

I've been around a bunch of freshwater lakes and never seen one that wouldn't grow something that stuck to the bottom within a week or two at most...

Yep, that's true. That's why the racing scows were cleaned weekly and some folks cleaned them before each race. It goes quick if you stay on top of it. Some members would complain about the daysailers not being cleaned more often but they weren't the ones doing the cleaning. :)  

Last Summer I pulled my boat up into the parking lot every 3 weeks or so, and it was dirty. I have a portable pressure washer and that wouldn't get all of it off. But after an hour or so with a scrubby and some "Bar Keepers Friend" it would look brand new. I couldn't get under the trailer bunks but just the act of pulling it up on the trailer scraped a lot of that off. The rest I got after the season. 

The VC Performance Epoxy would probably make that process easier but I'd still have to clean it. I am curious how much difference it would make though.

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1 minute ago, TomSp said:
1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

I've been around a bunch of freshwater lakes and never seen one that wouldn't grow something that stuck to the bottom within a week or two at most...

Yep, that's true. Last Summer I pulled the boat up into the parking lot every 3 weeks or so, and it was dirty. I have a portable pressure washer and that wouldn't get all of it off. But after an hour or so with a scrubby and some "Bar Keepers Friend" and it would look brand new. I couldn't get under the trailer bunks but just the act of pulling it up on the trailer scraped a lot of that off. The rest I got after the season. 

The VC Performance Epoxy would probably make that process easier but I'd still have to clean it. I am curious how much difference it would make though.

Growth that hardens will encroach on the tiniest pores. That's why biocide is necessary if you want to keep it from harboring growth. I doubt epoxy is hard/impervious enough to make a big difference; but give it try!

The best non-anti-fouling bottom surface I've found is two-part Linear PolyUrethane. I used the stuff they make for cars rather than marine-grade, about 10% cheaper and chemically exactly the same. But it ain't inexpensive. The pool paint might be a good option.

Definitely curious to know what you find out, let us know!

FB- Doug

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Just now, Steam Flyer said:

Growth that hardens will encroach on the tiniest pores. That's why biocide is necessary if you want to keep it from harboring growth. I doubt epoxy is hard/impervious enough to make a big difference; but give it try!

The best non-anti-fouling bottom surface I've found is two-part Linear PolyUrethane. I used the stuff they make for cars rather than marine-grade, about 10% cheaper and chemically exactly the same. But it ain't inexpensive. The pool paint might be a good option.

Definitely curious to know what you find out, let us know!

FB- Doug

LPU is not designed for continuous immersion so keep that in mind

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1 hour ago, Caecilian said:

Check out the difference in price between paints, then price your time which is by far away the biggest cost

That's true if I would otherwise be getting paid for my time. 

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1 minute ago, TomSp said:
1 hour ago, Caecilian said:

Check out the difference in price between paints, then price your time which is by far away the biggest cost

That's true if I would otherwise be getting paid for my time. 

Well, your time is worth something, right? The way I understand the suggestion, if the results are to save some money but have a crappier finish that costs you more time later, then the more expensive product could be a better deal overall.

 

1 hour ago, Caecilian said:

LPU is not designed for continuous immersion so keep that in mind

Right, I've used it on trailer boats. I apologize for not being clear on that

FB- Doug

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

Well, your time is worth something, right? The way I understand the suggestion, if the results are to save some money but have a crappier finish that costs you more time later, then the more expensive product could be a better deal overall.

 

Well, that's part of the question. I could very well spend more money for something that isn't as aesthetically pleasing, can't be immersed for more than 60 days, and would be more difficult to paint over down the road. In other words, all things considered it might be the crappier finish for my particular situation.

I'll get a couple of those questions answered by Interlux hopefully.

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8 hours ago, TomSp said:

The VC Performance Epoxy would probably make that process easier but I'd still have to clean it. I am curious how much difference it would make though.

i've had a lake boat for 10+ years,   seriously, there's nothing you can put on the bottom that will stop algae from growing...    not biocides, not copper,  not VCPE...   not PTFE,  not Rejex,.  not Teflon,   nor uranium..     algae doesn't care..      I put VCPE on the bottom because it is hard, so when I do scrub I know I'm not affecting it...      the boat gets power washed at 3000psi   and every so often I lightly scrub with  0000 steel wool..

if someone has a way to keep algae off , please let us know the secret 

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11 hours ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

i've had a lake boat for 10+ years,   seriously, there's nothing you can put on the bottom that will stop algae from growing...    not biocides, not copper,  not VCPE...   not PTFE,  not Rejex,.  not Teflon,   nor uranium..     algae doesn't care..      I put VCPE on the bottom because it is hard, so when I do scrub I know I'm not affecting it...      the boat gets power washed at 3000psi   and every so often I lightly scrub with  0000 steel wool..

if someone has a way to keep algae off , please let us know the secret 

years and years and years ago i worked in a marina. story goes that they had a boat there, had only been in for a few years, that the bottom was spotless on. management found this a bit hard to understand. dood was using shitty run of the mill interlux kl990 (remember that crap?) every year and the boat was coming out like new. first year it was interesting.... second it was a bit odd..... third they looked closer into it and discovered that his slip mates boats were pretty clean as well, on the sides predominantly facing his boat. well.... they sent a diver into the water to have a look, and there was nothing growing on the bottom of his slip either.

 that spring they watched him do boat prep.  turns out that he was mixing in a bit of mercury with the shitty bottom paint.......

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On 3/26/2021 at 10:51 AM, TomSp said:

I'm not trying to justify a bad idea. I was trying to figure out if it is a bad idea or not, and if it is a bad idea, - why.  

I think we all know that as soon you put "Marine" in front of a product name, the price doubles, even if what's in the product is the same.  Even so, I think I represent a small (maybe tiny) portion of the market that's perhaps not being served by the current crop of marine paints so I was looking for alternatives. 

I confess to being a bit anal about how my boat looks and maybe for no good reason in this case. But it's not just that VC Performance Epoxy only comes in white, it's also only rated for 60 days of submersion. My boat is in the water from Spring into Fall. I'm also not a racer which is who that product seems to be targeted at. Teflon coated slickness isn't a priority for me but it may help keep the bottom clean. 

Pool paint is submerged all the time. There are epoxy pool paints designed for fiberglass. And while it may truly be a bad idea for a sailboat, I haven't heard anyone who has been able to say why. Is epoxy paint designed for pools fundamentally different from epoxy paint designed for boats in some way?

A couple of folks including yourself have mentioned Interprotect which is a barrier paint and I figured I may have to use that under whatever I end up using for a topcoat whether it's VC Performance or something else. I've been told before that Interprotect has to be topcoated be maybe that's not true?

I thought SA might at least be a place to talk about ideas,  - both good and bad ("Speak Your Mind" and all that), but yep I can ask in the cruisers forum if that's a more appropriate place for this kind of question.

Holy fuck you are annoying.  You're probably the same guy who takes six weeks to pick spinnaker colors and then changes his mind again after the panels have been cut.

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Hi,

Many thanks for your email and yes sir that is correct. Hope this helps to confirm and if you need anything else please do not hesitate to ask!

 

Jay Smida 
Sales Representative - Awlgrip / Interlux
Marine and Protective Coatings
M +609 742 1063
 
jay.smida@akzonobel.com

International Paint LLC
6001 Antoine Drive
Houston, TX, 77091


www.akzonobel.com

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From:
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2021 10:39 AM
To: Interlux Technical Service <InterluxTechnicalService@akzonobel.com>
Subject: maximum immersion time

 

Hello,

just to clarify - when you list a "maximum immersion time" on your data sheets, that is the maximum time you recommend between painting and launching, correct?

 

thanks,

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52 minutes ago, ryley said:

Hi,

Many thanks for your email and yes sir that is correct. Hope this helps to confirm and if you need anything else please do not hesitate to ask!

 

Jay Smida 
Sales Representative - Awlgrip / Interlux
Marine and Protective Coatings
M +609 742 1063
 
jay.smida@akzonobel.com

International Paint LLC
6001 Antoine Drive
Houston, TX, 77091


www.akzonobel.com

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The information contained in this message, including any attachments, may be privileged and confidential and is intended only for the use of the individual and/or entity identified in the address of this message. If you are not an intended recipient, please notify the sender and delete and destroy this message, including any back-up copies. Please refer to www.akzonobel.com/legal-entities for further legal information regarding the sending entity if from the EU, Croatia, Norway, Turkey, Ukraine or Switzerland.

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From:
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2021 10:39 AM
To: Interlux Technical Service <InterluxTechnicalService@akzonobel.com>
Subject: maximum immersion time

 

Hello,

just to clarify - when you list a "maximum immersion time" on your data sheets, that is the maximum time you recommend between painting and launching, correct?

 

thanks,

Great. Thank you !

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1 hour ago, USA 236 said:

Holy fuck you are annoying.  You're probably the same guy who takes six weeks to pick spinnaker colors and then changes his mind again after the panels have been cut.

I do analyze things before making decisions and my wife gets annoyed just as you apparently have.  She's sometimes impacted by these decisions so I can understand. 

The rest of your statement is pretty far off. If I had the money to buy a new spinnaker, I'd probably buy the one that somebody else returned because they didn't like the colors. And if I did have one custom made, I'd live with whatever choices I made. That's why I take my time deciding what I want in the first place. 

But once I had the spinnaker, I'd not want to do something that made it look worse than when I got it.

Have a good day.

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13 minutes ago, Caecilian said:

Its an 18 footer gentlemen, you could paint it with a toothbrush quicker than reading the posts in this thread

I think my boat has just been insulted. :)

Anyway, I do wish what you said were true. It's probably going to take a couple weekends of work at least if the weather cooperates. It's on a trailer and I have two boat stands to support one side at a time while I lower the bunks, paint, remove the stands, raise the bunk, paint where the stands were, etc. 

The chart on the Interprotect box says 2 gallons for my little 18 footer, - ouch. 

You're right, the difference in cost isn't going to break the bank but my boat expenses don't stop at paint and I have a limited budget. $200 I spend on paint is $200 less I have to spend on other stuff. I'd love to replace my 30 year old sails at some point.

And I'm sure if you have a 40 footer these costs and the time involved seem trivial. But they are not to me. 

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Let us know how well that sands down when you need to repaint, if you will.  One of the charming things about Interprotect and the West fairing compounds and the epoxy-based biocidal bottom paints  though price isn't one of them - is they sand smooth or off with 40 or 80 grit and produce a fairly smooth bottom with very little post-application work.  

I'd be interested in finding out how pool paint reacts to marine fiberglass and if it can be removed / made smooth as easily as the marine-specific paints.  Not willing to try it on my boat but I would wager the application and the removal it produces a good story either way, hence my interest. 

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5 minutes ago, Lex Teredo said:

Let us know how well that sands down when you need to repaint, if you will.  One of the charming things about Interprotect and the West fairing compounds and the epoxy-based biocidal bottom paints  though price isn't one of them - is they sand smooth or off with 40 or 80 grit and produce a fairly smooth bottom with very little post-application work.  

I'd be interested in finding out how pool paint reacts to marine fiberglass and if it can be removed / made smooth as easily as the marine-specific paints.  Not willing to try it on my boat but I would wager the application and the removal it produces a good story either way, hence my interest. 

If I go the pool paint route, I will definitely pass on my experience. I also sent a few questions to Interlux and I'll post their responses too.

 

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hey we already know about interprotect, most of us have used it for years we dont need to know what their tech support says. That's what brand trust is about and what we pay for, i.e. known performance you can rely on. As I have said the biggest expense is the time prepping. 

One problem with forums for OCD types is the "full circle" you know what you want, post a question and keep chipping away until you get the reinforcement you (dont) need to do the thing you wanted to do anyway.

Its not a big deal on a small project, on big projects there tends to be serious money involved which goes a long way to prevent fuckups. In this case you could paint it with your kids finger paint and it wouldnt matter.

Actually it would look pretty awesome :) 

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20 minutes ago, Caecilian said:

hey we already know about interprotect, most of us have used it for years we dont need to know what their tech support says. That's what brand trust is about and what we pay for, i.e. known performance you can rely on. As I have said the biggest expense is the time prepping. 

One problem with forums for OCD types is the "full circle" you know what you want, post a question and keep chipping away until you get the reinforcement you (dont) need to do the thing you wanted to do anyway.

Its not a big deal on a small project, on big projects there tends to be serious money involved which goes a long way to prevent fuckups. In this case you could paint it with your kids finger paint and it wouldnt matter.

Actually it would look pretty awesome :) 

I'm not questioning whether Interprotect is a good product or not. Some have suggested that it can be left without a topcoat and I've heard from other sources that it can't. If it's fine on it's own then it saves me some time and money. So I'm going straight to the source. If people don't care what I find out, they can ignore what I post.

There's been some conflicting thoughts about what "60 days maximum immersion time" means when it comes to VC Performance, Ryley verified what it meant with Interlux. I think that's a sensible thing to do. Again, if you already know what you need to know, then you can ignore what he found out.

I'm not looking for "reinforcement".  I'm fully prepared to accept that pool paint may be a really bad idea. It wouldn't be my first bad idea and it won't be my last. But I'm a curious guy and if an idea is bad one, I'd like to know why. And if people are saying it's bad because of "x" and "x" doesn't apply in my case, I'm going to say so.

Anyway, here are the answers I got from Interlux. You're under no obligation to read them if you feel you already know:

"

Tom,
Many thanks for your email and interest in our products! When it comes to barrier coat systems, it is always best and recommended to apply some sort of bottom paint overtop. The barrier coat itself is a very strong epoxy, but when left exposed for periods of time it can begin to fade, chalk or even breakdown; hence the topcoat recommendation. VC Performance Epoxy will absolutely be my recommendation for you apply overtop; it is a hard durable product which protects the InterProtect 2000E and provides a sound base if you wished to apply a traditional antifouling overtop (hard sanding with 80 grit and wiping clean would be the recommendation). Please do however disregard the immersion time reference of the TDS, that is an error and should not be on the sheet at all; therefore you have no maximum immersion time at all. 
 
Lastly when it comes to the timing of the system, there is some flexibility overall but a couple key points should be made:
  • You have up to 6 months between coats of InterProtect 2000E (not that you would wait that long, but weather could play a factor)
  • I would recommend allowing the last coat of InterProtect 2000E to cure for 24-36 hours and then sand with 80 grit sandpaper (do not wait too much longer to sand)
  • Plan to apply each coat of VC Performance Epoxy within 24 hours of itself (otherwise you will have to sand with 180 prior to the next coat)
 
Hope this helps and best of luck with the work!"
 
 
 
 
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I forgot to ask them whether Performance Epoxy can be tinted though I think I know the answer to that. I'll post what they say for whoever may find that information valuable.

My two biggest concerns with Performance Epoxy have been addressed though Ryley got a different answer about immersion time than I did. Anyway I don't need to worry about it. I'm going to do at least part of the hull with it and the only question I have is whether I use pool paint at all if for no other reason than to satisfy my curiosity. 

Thanks for your feedback, some of you were really helpful. :D

 

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9 minutes ago, Caecilian said:

Helpful member here :)  tinting epoxy is dependent on its formulation, go on the specific manufacturers advice as all of them are a bit different.

Thank you and my apologies if I've been difficult. I completely understand why people would prefer to spend extra money on something they know works well for them than to try to save a few dollars on something that may not.

 

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On 3/26/2021 at 7:51 AM, TomSp said:

I'm not trying to justify a bad idea. I was trying to figure out if it is a bad idea or not, and if it is a bad idea, - why.  

I think we all know that as soon you put "Marine" in front of a product name, the price doubles, even if what's in the product is the same.  Even so, I think I represent a small (maybe tiny) portion of the market that's perhaps not being served by the current crop of marine paints so I was looking for alternatives. 

I confess to being a bit anal about how my boat looks and maybe for no good reason in this case. But it's not just that VC Performance Epoxy only comes in white, it's also only rated for 60 days of submersion. My boat is in the water from Spring into Fall. I'm also not a racer which is who that product seems to be targeted at. Teflon coated slickness isn't a priority for me but it may help keep the bottom clean. 

Pool paint is submerged all the time. There are epoxy pool paints designed for fiberglass. And while it may truly be a bad idea for a sailboat, I haven't heard anyone who has been able to say why. Is epoxy paint designed for pools fundamentally different from epoxy paint designed for boats in some way?

A couple of folks including yourself have mentioned Interprotect which is a barrier paint and I figured I may have to use that under whatever I end up using for a topcoat whether it's VC Performance or something else. I've been told before that Interprotect has to be topcoated be maybe that's not true?

I thought SA might at least be a place to talk about ideas,  - both good and bad ("Speak Your Mind" and all that), but yep I can ask in the cruisers forum if that's a more appropriate place for this kind of question.

Very simple answer, it is a BAD idea. (unhelpful poster here)

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On 3/29/2021 at 6:08 PM, TomSp said:

though Ryley got a different answer about immersion time than I did.

Well, to be fair I asked them for a definition of maximum immersion time, which they provided. I never asked them whether it was a valid number so kudos on that. ;)

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8 hours ago, zenmasterfred said:

Very simple answer, it is a BAD idea. (unhelpful poster here)

Based on what I've heard, here are the cons of using pool paint vs VC Performance Epoxy:

  1. The finish will not be as slick and maybe not as quite as hard or smooth (though last part I'm not sure about)
  2. My boat will not be as fast
  3. The bottom won't clean up as easily 
  4. Long term durability is an unknown (which is what I'm most worried about)

Pros of using Pool Paint

  1. Much less expensive
  2. Available in a large variety of colors though I may not be able to match what I have which is what I'd really like

Some other considerations

  1. I don't race this boat but if I wanted improved performance, replacing my 30 year old sails would probably be a better investment than an extra slick hull. That and just being a better sailor. 
  2. I clean the hull pretty often anyway

It's the durability that's my biggest concern and that's what I was hoping to hear about. But it seems no one else has had a good reason to try it so if I want to find out, I'll have to try it myself. Someone has suggested that the cruisers forum might be a better place to find someone who has tried it, but based on the reception that the idea has gotten here, I think I'm gonna pass on asking this question again. :)

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48 minutes ago, ryley said:

Well, to be fair I asked them for a definition of maximum immersion time, which they provided. I never asked them whether it was a valid number so kudos on that. ;)

Yes, after after at least the 2nd question about immersion time in one morning, it sounds like he was a little unhappy about it appearing on the datasheet at all which is maybe why I got the answer I got.

As far as tinting goes, no real surprise:

Quote

Tom,

You are very welcome. With regards to the color, White will be the only option available. There is no safe or practical way to add any tint/pigment or coloring agent into VC Performance Epoxy without having a reaction.

Hope this helps to confirm some more and best of luck with the work!

Jay Smida  
Sales Representative - Awlgrip / Interlux 
Marine and Protective Coatings 
M +609 742 1063 
 
jay.smida@akzonobel.com

 

I guess if you're selling hull paint to people that race and it's only practical to make it in one color, white is the most sensible color to choose.

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and this is why we have 'fuck off newbie and show us your girlfriend/wife's tits'. ffs.

dood, you have made up your mind with what you are going to do, just go do it.

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Oh fer cryin' out loud, stop being so anal. There is one paint that checks all the important boxes. The fact that you imagine you have a color that clashes with white says volumes about your sense of what is practical.

Paint it with VC and tape a blue tarp skirt to the boot stripe for all I care.

Your neighbors already whisper about you, not the boat.

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2 hours ago, Autonomous said:

Oh fer cryin' out loud, stop being so anal. There is one paint that checks all the important boxes. The fact that you imagine you have a color that clashes with white says volumes about your sense of what is practical.

Paint it with VC and tape a blue tarp skirt to the boot stripe for all I care.

Your neighbors already whisper about you, not the boat.

I know, outrageous right? Wanting a paint that comes in more than one color...

In my experience when you put something bright white next to something that's kinda white, the kinda white part ends up looking dingy. Separated by a bootstripe it might be just fine. We'll see. But I'd hardly be the only one that would pick a different color than white for the bottom of their boat if there were other good options. 

Is it really so hard to see or acknowledge that a single choice of color is an actual downside? I'm not saying that it isn't a great paint for it's intended purpose. But it's still a downside. And it's intended purpose isn't exactly in line with what I need, - but might be the best I can do.

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2 hours ago, basketcase said:

and this is why we have 'fuck off newbie and show us your girlfriend/wife's tits'. ffs.

dood, you have made up your mind with what you are going to do, just go do it.

I'm pretty close to deciding, yes. I really didn't know what I wanted to do when I posted the question, which is why I was asking.

As for the "fuck off newbie", attitude, well I don't know how much of that is me, or how much of that is just part of the culture here, but either way it's too bad.

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3 minutes ago, TomSp said:

I'm pretty close to deciding, yes. I really didn't know what I wanted to do when I posted the question, which is why I was asking.

As for the "fuck off newbie", attitude, well I don't know how much of that is me, or how much of that is just part of the culture here, but either way it's too bad.

Id suggest that in this case its not quite equal parts of column a and column b.

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11 minutes ago, basketcase said:

Id suggest that in this case its not quite equal parts of column a and column b.

Agree 100% and I'll accept that we might not see eye to eye on how much is in each column. :)

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I’ve got a buddy who keeps complaining about his chlorine bill for his pool. That, and he just can’t deal with the colour.

Someone told him he should just go with ablative paint and skip the chlorine regimen.

He told me that he was worried about what the ablative paint would do to the water quality. I told him at the very least that this type of paint was chalk full of biocides and would easily deal with floaters or anything else that might come up.

Pros- will easily deal with biological contamination 

-comes in the desired color

-might save money by being able to not have to rely on traditional filtration 

Cons-only lasts a couple of seasons 

-expensive

-paint might leech into the water when swimmers accidentally touch the pool sides or when small children play in the shallow end

He’s still weighing his odds and gathering info but can’t wait to get the pool filled and heated either way.

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6 minutes ago, fufkin said:

I’ve got a buddy who keeps complaining about his chlorine bill for his pool. That, and he just can’t deal with the colour.

Someone told him he should just go with ablative paint and skip the chlorine regimen.

He told me that he was worried about what the ablative paint would do to the water quality. I told him at the very least that this type of paint was chalk full of biocides and would easily deal with floaters or anything else that might come up.

Pros- will easily deal with biological contamination 

-comes in the desired color

-might save money by being able to not have to rely on traditional filtration 

Cons-only lasts a couple of seasons 

-expensive

-paint might leech into the water when swimmers accidentally touch the pool sides or when small children play in the shallow end

He’s still weighing his odds and gathering info but can’t wait to get the pool filled and heated either way.

Tell him he's anal, OCD, cheap, and annoying. Those are the kinds of logical arguments that always win me over 

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On 3/31/2021 at 11:50 AM, TomSp said:

I know, outrageous right? Wanting a paint that comes in more than one color...

In my experience when you put something bright white next to something that's kinda white, the kinda white part ends up looking dingy. Separated by a bootstripe it might be just fine. We'll see. But I'd hardly be the only one that would pick a different color than white for the bottom of their boat if there were other good options. 

Is it really so hard to see or acknowledge that a single choice of color is an actual downside? I'm not saying that it isn't a great paint for it's intended purpose. But it's still a downside. And it's intended purpose isn't exactly in line with what I need, - but might be the best I can do.

Endless shades of grey are also an option with VCPE. It’s available in both black and white, and they mix just fine. This boat has VC Performance Epoxy on the bottom as an example. 

168A47FB-6CE1-4EA8-80FE-321CE8332A45.jpeg

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55 minutes ago, Monkey said:

Endless shades of grey are also an option with VCPE. It’s available in both black and white, and they mix just fine. This boat has VC Performance Epoxy on the bottom as an example. 

168A47FB-6CE1-4EA8-80FE-321CE8332A45.jpeg

That looks really nice and I would definitely prefer some shade of grey, but I thought VCPE only came in white?   That's all I can find anyway.

I'm not an expert on sail trim by any means but does that main need more Cunningham/downhaul?

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1 hour ago, TomSp said:

That looks really nice and I would definitely prefer some shade of grey, but I thought VCPE only came in white?   That's all I can find anyway.

I'm not an expert on sail trim by any means but does that main need more Cunningham/downhaul?

they are 'speed wrinkles.'

(i would start with more hoist....)

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On 3/31/2021 at 10:28 AM, TomSp said:

Tell him he's anal, OCD, cheap, and annoying. Those are the kinds of logical arguments that always win me over 

Get that a lot, do you?

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1 hour ago, TomSp said:

That looks really nice and I would definitely prefer some shade of grey, but I thought VCPE only came in white?   That's all I can find anyway.

I'm not an expert on sail trim by any means but does that main need more Cunningham/downhaul?

Guys, look at the cracked off jib and pole already raised. They’ve cracked off, blown off the Cunningham and are just about to round the mark. When they come play in our beer can fleet, they tend to be polite and overstand the lay line to avoid messing with all the normal sized boats in the fleet. 
 

Edit:  I wonder if the black was discontinued. 

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15 minutes ago, Monkey said:

Guys, look at the cracked off jib and pole already raised. They’ve cracked off, blown off the Cunningham and are just about to round the mark. When they come play in our beer can fleet, they tend to be polite and overstand the lay line to avoid messing with all the normal sized boats in the fleet. 
 

Edit:  I wonder if the black was discontinued. 

Possibly it was discontinued. 

Either way, it's a great picture. 

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37 minutes ago, basketcase said:

they are 'speed wrinkles.'

(i would start with more hoist....)

Learn something every day. 

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1 hour ago, TomSp said:

Learn something every day. 

I’ll just say there was an absurd amount of talent on board that boat in that shot and leave it at that. There’s at least one extremely well respected sail maker on the rail, a pile of exceptional amateurs, and of course….  He owned North Sails at the time. The sails on that boat were always perfect. Any lack of Cunningham was on purpose.