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I’m trying to get an idea for how much length/displacement plays a part in safety. I have been doing a lot of reading but haven’t been able to get a feel for this yet. I would be very interested in peoples thoughts.

With this in mind, here is a hypothetical question: Assuming you found yourself off shore in a gale. Which boat would you rather be in? A small Full Keel boat (e.g. Pacific Seacraft Dana 24/Orion 27) or midsized Fin Keel (Beneteau 35ish)? 

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5 hours ago, Mies said:

I’m trying to get an idea for how much length/displacement plays a part in safety. .........

Given adequate stability, and nothing too extreme in design, then the crafts length is always the foremost primary factor in offshore safety. 

 

 

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59 minutes ago, MikeJohns said:
7 hours ago, Mies said:

I’m trying to get an idea for how much length/displacement plays a part in safety. .........

Given adequate stability, and nothing too extreme in design, then the crafts length is always the foremost primary factor in offshore safety. 

Yes, if all else is equal. Bigger = Better (in this case). But your partially thinking 'comfort' in writing 'safety' which actually makes sense when the people on the boat have to sleep once in a while.

But really, safety is a complex matter that can't be reduced to a simple set of numbers; and "all else" is never equal. Reserve stability or range of positive stability is very nice to have in extremely big waves, but a good education in meteorology and modern communications can enable you to avoid such weather in the first place. How securely the water tank and batteries are mounted & strapped has nothing to do with hull design or size, and dying of thirst or getting mashed/gassed/set-on-fire by a loose battery is obviously not "safe."

It's easy to find horror stories of people planning to cruise, buying an older/cheaper big boat, and having all kinds of problems and sometimes disaster; due to either gear failure and/or lack of some key skill. The opposite would be Joshua Slocum and SPRAY.... master mariner who made remarkable voyages in a very unseaworthy type of boat.

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27 or 35’ ..... it won’t matter.  You will NOT be ‘comfortable’ offshore in a blow.  Haven’t been out there yet, have you?  As for safety, the keel design issue is waaaay down the list....

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11 minutes ago, Veeger said:

27 or 35’ ..... it won’t matter.  You will NOT be ‘comfortable’ offshore in a blow.  Haven’t been out there yet, have you?  As for safety, the keel design issue is waaaay down the list....

Yep, the keel choice is about sailing ability not safety. 

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Not only that but combine steel with twin keels and stunning looks and you get the ultimate Bluewater cruiser that will be safe during any conditions even off Somalia

you get a Reinke .. 

beauty and elegance that only Germans can achieve. as seen in "Tiger", "Panther", and so on

reinke-super-10-79740060170856575351505555574548x.jpg.bced675e5ecde7276000278b6a963b95.jpg

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8 hours ago, Mies said:

I’m trying to get an idea for how much length/displacement plays a part in safety. I have been doing a lot of reading but haven’t been able to get a feel for this yet. I would be very interested in peoples thoughts.

With this in mind, here is a hypothetical question: Assuming you found yourself off shore in a gale. Which boat would you rather be in? A small Full Keel boat (e.g. Pacific Seacraft Dana 24/Orion 27) or midsized Fin Keel (Beneteau 35ish)? 

Assuming that both boats are sailed by the right kind of sailor, have been built by the right kind of manufacturer and have been prepared before the crossing by the right kind of sailor, both will come out of the gale unhurt.

Once this has been said, full keel is overrated IMHO, it comes from a time when boats were built in solid timber and attaching solidly a fin underneath such a hull wasn't very practical nor sturdy. Nowadays you can have a robustly built fin boat which will sail better upwind than the equivalent long keel boat and as a result will be much safer if there is something to leeward while you are in your hypothetical gale.

Also depending who taught you how to sail, you might be better at sailing one boat or the other, with the full keel boat in gale forces winds the good sailor will tend to spend more time heaving to whereas with the fin keel boat the good sailor will spend more time finding the optimum speed (tend to be low) to progress safely in these conditions.

You will find on the internet lot of people who will tell you that you are going to die if you set off in a fin keel boat... lot of people have and came back unhurt!!! A few years ago, 2 events offered to amateurs to sail round the world by the southern ocean. For one event full keels were compulsory and the attrition rate ended up higher....

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4 minutes ago, robtoujours said:

Not only that but combine steel with twin keels and stunning looks and you get the ultimate Bluewater cruiser that will be safe during any conditions even off Somalia

you get a Reinke .. 

beauty and elegance that only Germans can achieve. as seen in "Tiger", "Panther", and so on

reinke-super-10-79740060170856575351505555574548x.jpg.bced675e5ecde7276000278b6a963b95.jpg

You know, this kind of discussion makes me think back to my days riding around on Uncle Sam's tin cans... small by some measures, but a heck of a lot bigger, many orders of magnitude, than any cruising sailor is going to have.  And part of the lack of comfort was living in a stack of 3-high bunks with hundreds of other shaved-headed young men. But social issues aside, even with 3 squares a day, dry place to sleep, and the security of thousands of tons of steel and the worlds most advanced weapons all around, it was miserable.

And we went thru some storms that I am convinced would shred any small-ish (less than a couple hundred tons) boat. A V-shaped depression in the North Sea brought the sudden onset of waves big and steep and powerful enough to damage the forced draft blowers with cascades of water into the boiler air intakes, as well as stripping the deck of welded-on fittings and the bridge wing hand rails (that caused some unpleasant words over the 1MC). This same storm did in a few oil platforms, which is why we were out there instead of somewhere else.

A boat should not have the ambition to defeat the sea, it should be sound and watertight and strong enough that it's not going to suffer sudden disassembly by any weather the skipper can't avoid. Sven Yerwind has built some nice, VERY seaworthy boats but I'm not sure how many would be comfortable making his kind of cruise in them... not for me! So size is not the major factor!

Twin keels can be really nice when cruising in the many many places where the boat is likely to rest on the bottom thru a low tide. By chance, I just finished re-reading 'Riddle Of The Sands' in which a flat-bottomed centerboarder... a converted lifeboat of tremendously strong construction... does exactly that almost every night, as part of the adventure of exploring.

Many different kinds of boats are safe and suitable. Part of the fun is choosing one and learning to work with it's strengths instead of cursing it's weaknesses

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OP wrote 'offshore in a gale'. Is a mere gale a safety issue? Force 8...34-40 kt? Keep sailing. If one is considering a pricy Beneteau 35ish for offshore passages why would those other boats be on the list? Or, Is this thread to settle a bar argument where neither party has been offshore in a gale?

I didn't read the entire thread. I see anchors and offset companionways have been mentioned. Have we yet discussed keels tripping on wave crests? 

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9 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

From the link:

"The yacht was, according to the Crown Prosecution Service, not seaworthy for an ocean passage, as several bolts of the keel were corroded or broken even before the voyage: "A number of keel bolts had broken, causing it to detach from the hull. Many were broken and it had been like that for months. The yacht was therefore unsound, broken, and unsafe before the men left from Antigua.""

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In order for the keel to generate lift, the boat has to have forward motion. With no forward motion, the boat will drift sideways. If the hull and keel have small lateral area, the boat will drift to leeward faster than a boat with more lateral area. Racing boat designers would like the hull and keel to have minimum wetted area to get minimum drag. Any boat with a small keel will require more skilled helming than a boat with a big keel. So, for purposes of clawing off a lee shore, you want to avoid either fin keel or full keel with small area. If such a boat is stopped by a wave, it may have to be steered off the wind, i.e. toward the hazard, a bit to get forward motion over the keel, and be able to sail to windward enough to escape the hazard. An inexperienced helmsman may be too scared to do that.

These issues come into play with every tack. If you have trouble tacking your Island Packet, or whatever, that's at part of the reason why. Racing sailors also get familiar with these issues when pinching up to get around a mark.

I think a good guide on best keel design might be what you find on boats from Catalina and Jeaneau. They are interested in all-round easy handling for sailors who are not necessarily experts.

If you do get caught in a lee shore situation, try to make it one of Bob Perry's carbon cutters. 

 

 

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32 minutes ago, slap said:

From the link:

"The yacht was, according to the Crown Prosecution Service, not seaworthy for an ocean passage, as several bolts of the keel were corroded or broken even before the voyage: "A number of keel bolts had broken, causing it to detach from the hull. Many were broken and it had been like that for months. The yacht was therefore unsound, broken, and unsafe before the men left from Antigua.""

Like I said, food for thought.

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9 hours ago, Mies said:

Which boat would you rather be in? A small Full Keel boat (e.g. Pacific Seacraft Dana 24/Orion 27) or midsized Fin Keel (Beneteau 35ish)? 

Step below on a 24-27ft boat, then step below on a 35 ft boat. You will immediately know the answer of which boat you would rather be in - including the 99.999999% of the time you are not offshore in a gale. 

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And I suspect the % of sailors that need to ask this kind of question AND eventually sail offshore at some point is infinitesimal, ie very few. And the hopeful need for a big boat feeds the huge numbers of dockuminiums, hated by everyone except bottom cleaners. 

Think of the money saved by wannabe sailors who start small. The wife won't play? No biggie. Sail on mofo. Size isn't a function of sailing fun for most of us. Of course if your boat choice isn't actually about the fun, well then, anything goes. 

 

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4 minutes ago, freewheelin said:

Step below on a 24-27ft boat, then step below on a 35 ft boat. You will immediately know the answer of which boat you would rather be in - including the 99.999999% of the time you are not offshore in a gale. 

And consider Shane Acton. Around the world, and 8 years aboard an 18' plywood bilge keeler. It's really not about the boat.

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13 minutes ago, Blue Crab said:

And consider Shane Acton. Around the world, and 8 years aboard an 18' plywood bilge keeler. It's really not about the boat.

Just answering his question between the 3 he suggested. I'd much rather be in the comfy 35' bene that is also fun to sail.

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Answer is solely dependent on how many solar panels you fit and the size of inflatable you can carry. Duh!

That said we have friends with a small full keel steel boat. Took them 6 days to do a leg we did in 2 days. Both got there just fine.

Speed gives you many more choices. 

Now can we get back to important topics like electrifying lifelines to deter all the pirates or should I just put some tacks on the deck? 

 

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30 minutes ago, airacer said:

Answer is solely dependent on how many solar panels you fit and the size of inflatable you can carry. Duh!

That said we have friends with a small full keel steel boat. Took them 6 days to do a leg we did in 2 days. Both got there just fine.

Speed gives you many more choices. 

Now can we get back to important topics like electrifying lifelines to deter all the pirates or should I just put some tacks on the deck? 

 

tacks on the deck only work with native tribes that are barefoot. Not too many of them encountered at sea anymore.

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I'd always pick the bigger boat of the 2 types compared. Much, much harder to capsize a bigger boat.

useful rule of thumb - it takes a breaking wave (the breaking part of the wave) with a height about equal to the beam of the boat to capsize it.

You seldom hear of 50 and 60' boats being capsized because the wave size required is not commonly found in typical gales or storms.

How big a wave will it take to knock over this little toy:

image.png.e1fb4fd6ee9f54f799610c24e13233bd.png

 

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6 hours ago, Veeger said:

27 or 35’ ..... it won’t matter.  You will NOT be ‘comfortable’ offshore in a blow.  Haven’t been out there yet, have you?  As for safety, the keel design issue is waaaay down the list....

Nope. I have a Catalina 22 which I greatly enjoy lake sailing. 10 years ago I was actually in gale conditions in my WW Potter 15 for about 5 min :). I’m a n00b that is slowly upgrading and am gathering information to make (hopefully) good choices...

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One thing I am saddened and appalled by is the continuing linguistic confusion of twin keels and bilge keels 

a Golden Hind, trawler, or navy destroyer has bilge keels. A Westerly or RM has twin keels

anyway OP the standard work on what you seeK is marchajs book the forgotten factor. try a library 

then buy a rundown westsail 32 for the big tank. Be sure to add plenty of “junk on the trunk”

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3 hours ago, Zonker said:

I'd always pick the bigger boat of the 2 types compared. Much, much harder to capsize a bigger boat.

useful rule of thumb - it takes a breaking wave (the breaking part of the wave) with a height about equal to the beam of the boat to capsize it.

You seldom hear of 50 and 60' boats being capsized because the wave size required is not commonly found in typical gales or storms.

How big a wave will it take to knock over this little toy:

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS is the first real factor - bigger boat is more stable. Along with this the larger boat will have a much better motion (slower, less roll/pitch) which will keep the sailors onboard more rested & able to do whatever is required.

 

 

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I know dredging is expensive but those harbours have been there for 100's of years. Why not empty them of sand? Or would it re-fill too fast?

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15 minutes ago, Zonker said:

I know dredging is expensive but those harbours have been there for 100's of years. Why not empty them of sand? Or would it re-fill too fast?

Perhaps the clam diggers objected? Seems to work well just the way it is. Enforces a period of relaxation and drinking ashore each day.

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7 minutes ago, Al Paca said:

When you’re talking gales, you’re talking handholds.   How many is enough. 

Bingo

A gale is not necessarily a life/death battle, but it's certainly a test (and it can turn into a struggle quickly if shit goes sideways)

 

9 hours ago, SemiSalt said:

In order for the keel to generate lift, the boat has to have forward motion. With no forward motion, the boat will drift sideways. If the hull and keel have small lateral area, the boat will drift to leeward faster than a boat with more lateral area. Racing boat designers would like the hull and keel to have minimum wetted area to get minimum drag. Any boat with a small keel will require more skilled helming than a boat with a big keel. So, for purposes of clawing off a lee shore, you want to avoid either fin keel or full keel with small area. If such a boat is stopped by a wave, it may have to be steered off the wind, i.e. toward the hazard, a bit to get forward motion over the keel, and be able to sail to windward enough to escape the hazard. An inexperienced helmsman may be too scared to do that.

These issues come into play with every tack. If you have trouble tacking your Island Packet, or whatever, that's at part of the reason why. Racing sailors also get familiar with these issues when pinching up to get around a mark.

I think a good guide on best keel design might be what you find on boats from Catalina and Jeaneau. They are interested in all-round easy handling for sailors who are not necessarily experts.

If you do get caught in a lee shore situation, try to make it one of Bob Perry's carbon cutters. 

 

 

I think you may be over stating the case against high aspect fins. They suck more in light air than heavy. But I would join you in condemning a very race-oriented boat with a deep skinny keel for use as a cruiser; several reasons without going into being caught near a lee shore in a gale.

I also firmly believe that almost ANY fin keel will outperform almost any full keel in those circumstances. Waves & rolling crests send a full keel downwind more than a fin. A fin will provide a better pivot for tacking. Etc etc. Last, a boat with a full keel is also most likely to have a rig that does not go upwind very well.

So on that note, let's mention that having a motor that can be run while heeling/pitching etc etc is a very good arrow to have in a cruiser's quiver. This also means having a good fuel supply (ie no crud clogging up filters)

Up next... reefing to stay off the reefs!

FB- Doug

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15 hours ago, Zonker said:

I'd always pick the bigger boat of the 2 types compared. Much, much harder to capsize a bigger boat.

useful rule of thumb - it takes a breaking wave (the breaking part of the wave) with a height about equal to the beam of the boat to capsize it.

You seldom hear of 50 and 60' boats being capsized because the wave size required is not commonly found in typical gales or storms.

How big a wave will it take to knock over this little toy:

image.png.e1fb4fd6ee9f54f799610c24e13233bd.png

 

Have you heard about the "Cork Theory" ? May be this theory is only true in Breton bars which earn their money from those who spend too much time checking the weather forecast :D

"A wine cork will come out floating out of the worst gales with the worst waves"

So if you want to cross oceans on a small boat, you want to make sure that it can behave like a bottle cork in a storm which in practice means float whatever its position (including mast down) and keeps its integrity in the process. I know nothing about these Dana boats but I imagine that a grizzled sailor would manage to sail a well prepared one through a bad storm. Well prepared means completely watertight,(deck stepped mast, hatch that can be closed from inside...) rig that stays up after a knockdown etc...

Nevertheless, like you I would choose the bigger boat... I would add the bigger boat I can afford to make truly seaworthy as IMO a smaller boat that was well prepared is probably safer than a bigger one whose owner had to cut corners!

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11 hours ago, Zonker said:

I know dredging is expensive but those harbours have been there for 100's of years. Why not empty them of sand? Or would it re-fill too fast?

In Europe dredging probably means selling off to a developer who will build horrible 5 storeys building around the place to pay for his investment!

I understand the locals even if cruising in Wales means ending up in the most industrial parts for those of us who have tried with a fin keel!

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14 hours ago, freewheelin said:

Interestingly, Wales might be a place that a full keel makes sense

Boats On The Sandy Beach At Low Tide In Tenby Bay, Wales Stock Photo,  Picture And Royalty Free Image. Image 93149865.

If like Yvon Le corre your job is to paint pretty places, full keel makes sense as you can dry out about anywhere and then have six hours to make a nice painting of the place...

yvon-le-corre-3.jpg

DSCF8581.jpg

51FX6T5iIdL.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yvon_Le_Corre

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On 3/25/2021 at 7:17 AM, Steam Flyer said:

 

It's easy to find horror stories of people planning to cruise, buying an older/cheaper big boat, and having all kinds of problems and sometimes disaster; due to either gear failure and/or lack of some key skill. The opposite would be Joshua Slocum and SPRAY.... master mariner who made remarkable voyages in a very unseaworthy type of boat.

FB- Doug

..And disappeared without a trace.

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On 3/25/2021 at 12:57 AM, Mies said:

I’m trying to get an idea for how much length/displacement plays a part in safety. I have been doing a lot of reading but haven’t been able to get a feel for this yet. I would be very interested in peoples thoughts.

With this in mind, here is a hypothetical question: Assuming you found yourself off shore in a gale. Which boat would you rather be in? A small Full Keel boat (e.g. Pacific Seacraft Dana 24/Orion 27) or midsized Fin Keel (Beneteau 35ish)? 

First off, we need an inventory:

Guns?

Tits? photos required

Frying Pans?

O-silly-scopes?

Pactorbator?

Once we know these things the answer will become clear.

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On 3/25/2021 at 12:57 AM, Mies said:

I’m trying to get an idea for how much length/displacement plays a part in safety. I have been doing a lot of reading but haven’t been able to get a feel for this yet. I would be very interested in peoples thoughts.

With this in mind, here is a hypothetical question: Assuming you found yourself off shore in a gale. Which boat would you rather be in? A small Full Keel boat (e.g. Pacific Seacraft Dana 24/Orion 27) or midsized Fin Keel (Beneteau 35ish)? 

Seriously now:

You are comparing boats built for offshore sailing to a coastal cruiser. Maybe not fast offshore sailing, but offshore none-the-less for the Pacific SeaCraft variants. The Ben-Cat-Huns of the world are sold to people who do local and coastal sailing in warm weather for the most part for time periods ranging from an afternoon to a couple of weeks. The hull form does not have a lot to do with it, it is the construction and intended use of the boat. There are plenty of offshore capable fin keel boats  and there are crappy full keel boats.

Obviously some Cat-Ben-Huns do long voyages and plenty of Pacific Seacrafts probably never get 100 miles from their home port, but if you want to go voyaging it is easier to start with boats more or less intended for that service.

Also remember speed is a thing! A 24 foot full keel boat IS going to be caught out in the weather, so she BETTER be able to stand up to it. The BendyTwo meanwhile might already be in port. Handy example: We left Bermuda in really nasty weather and made a very fast but wet and uncomfortable trip to Cape May. We got there right when an Alberg 30 also arrived from Bermuda. They said they left on Tuesday and we congratulated them on a fast passage until we figured out it was Tuesday a week before:rolleyes: They spend a lot of time hove-to, lying ahull, and going really slow. We had the hammer down the whole way. I think we did 350 miles in two days :D

 

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10 hours ago, Cruisin Loser said:
On 3/25/2021 at 8:17 AM, Steam Flyer said:

.....    ...  Joshua Slocum and SPRAY.... master mariner who made remarkable voyages in a very unseaworthy type of boat.

 

..And disappeared without a trace.

Eventually

That pitcher went one too many times to the well, as the old saying goes

For examples of incredible voyages made in incredibly unsuitable boats, I like Captain Voss in TILLIKUM. IIRC he did this on account of a bar bet, but he also took the precaution of getting a publicity deal first. Tillikum was a 3 masted schooner, which sounds great until you see photos of the flimsy-ass thing and read that it was a "converted Indian war canoe" (don't really know what that is but it does not sound seaworthy).

Well, peace among the Indians is a good thing right?

FB- Doug

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4 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Eventually

That pitcher went one too many times to the well, as the old saying goes

For examples of incredible voyages made in incredibly unsuitable boats, I like Captain Voss in TILLIKUM. IIRC he did this on account of a bar bet, but he also took the precaution of getting a publicity deal first. Tillikum was a 3 masted schooner, which sounds great until you see photos of the flimsy-ass thing and read that it was a "converted Indian war canoe" (don't really know what that is but it does not sound seaworthy).

Well, peace among the Indians is a good thing right?

FB- Doug

Kwakiutl war canoe.

Kwakiutl-canoes-1914.jpg

Looks like you need quite a crew.

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On 3/25/2021 at 11:45 AM, Zonker said:

I'd always pick the bigger boat of the 2 types compared. Much, much harder to capsize a bigger boat.

useful rule of thumb - it takes a breaking wave (the breaking part of the wave) with a height about equal to the beam of the boat to capsize it.

You seldom hear of 50 and 60' boats being capsized because the wave size required is not commonly found in typical gales or storms.

How big a wave will it take to knock over this little toy:

image.png.e1fb4fd6ee9f54f799610c24e13233bd.png

 

There's one of those on my dock. Fully outfitted to the level a 45 footer would be. It has everything.

Almost certainly cost as much or more than a solid 35 footer.

I've never understood that mentality of trying to cram a 5 gallon boat into a pint pot.

 

P.S. Did I mention that it never leaves the dock?

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15 hours ago, Panoramix said:

Have you heard about the "Cork Theory" ? May be this theory is only true in Breton bars which earn their money from those who spend too much time checking the weather forecast :D

"A wine cork will come out floating out of the worst gales with the worst waves"

If you don't mind being Spam in a can, one advantage of a small boat is that it is stronger for its weight than a large boat. 

1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

For examples of incredible voyages made in incredibly unsuitable boats, I like Captain Voss in TILLIKUM. IIRC he did this on account of a bar bet, but he also took the precaution of getting a publicity deal first. Tillikum was a 3 masted schooner, which sounds great until you see photos of the flimsy-ass thing and read that it was a "converted Indian war canoe" (don't really know what that is but it does not sound seaworthy).

Tillikum is on display somewhere up in the PNW - forget where at this moment but I have seen it - and there is absolutely no way I would take that thing on any body of water wider than a short swim to shore. What he did in that is incredible, not just the seamanship but the depravation of comforts of any sort. 

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I remember from BC Maritime museum, but it has moved. According to Wikipedia, Tilikum is now at the Ogden Point cruise ship terminal in Victoria. Absolutely incredible.

Not sure if this counts as full keel or not... 

 

Tilikum.thumb.jpg.67cc1f5cc6fdbe2810569e6fbf648157.jpg

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Sadly the museum had to relocate/store most of their wonderful boats, Tilikum, Trekka etc. a few years back when they lost their home in the amazing old courthouse in Victoria, BC - it was a fantastic museum and historic building. They've bounced around a few small places since, I've lost track, but it'd be great to see the boats again, I had the pleasure of wandering around on Trekka, it didn't take long!

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5 hours ago, DDW said:

If you don't mind being Spam in a can, one advantage of a small boat is that it is stronger for its weight than a large boat. 

Indeed.

The small boat tough as a nut school of boatbuilding :

solaire-34-jacques-riguidel.jpg?ssl=1

This one was designed and built by Jacques Riguidel to circumnavigate against the winds... Sadly he didn't as some long term illness prevented him to do so.

And everybody knows that if you draw a chicken on your boat it becomes able to sail round the world...

baluchon-carte.png

 

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On 3/26/2021 at 8:50 AM, kent_island_sailor said:

Seriously now:

You are comparing boats built for offshore sailing to a coastal cruiser. Maybe not fast offshore sailing, but offshore none-the-less for the Pacific SeaCraft variants. The Ben-Cat-Huns of the world are sold to people who do local and coastal sailing in warm weather for the most part for time periods ranging from an afternoon to a couple of weeks. The hull form does not have a lot to do with it, it is the construction and intended use of the boat. There are plenty of offshore capable fin keel boats  and there are crappy full keel boats.

Obviously some Cat-Ben-Huns do long voyages and plenty of Pacific Seacrafts probably never get 100 miles from their home port, but if you want to go voyaging it is easier to start with boats more or less intended for that service.

Also remember speed is a thing! A 24 foot full keel boat IS going to be caught out in the weather, so she BETTER be able to stand up to it. The BendyTwo meanwhile might already be in port. Handy example: We left Bermuda in really nasty weather and made a very fast but wet and uncomfortable trip to Cape May. We got there right when an Alberg 30 also arrived from Bermuda. They said they left on Tuesday and we congratulated them on a fast passage until we figured out it was Tuesday a week before:rolleyes: They spend a lot of time hove-to, lying ahull, and going really slow. We had the hammer down the whole way. I think we did 350 miles in two days :D

 

Way, way back in the 1970s, a couple of friends in their 20s pooled their funds and built or had built -I can’t recall the details- a cold-moulded 32 or so foot/9-10m boat they named “Damien”.  They spent five years circumnavigating, from France to Spitsbergen, down the Atlantic and up the Amazon River, then south and through the Southern Ocean, eventually to the remote Kerguelen Islands, continued on around Cape Horn, to South Georgia Island, and back to France.  In the book they later published about the voyage, “Damien Autour du Monde” (Damien Around the World) —and this, in the era (1970s) of Moitessier and his famous Joshua and generally heavy displacement cruising boats— they make the case for their light displacement fin keeler - very robustly built - as ideal for their demanding voyage.  It was light, fast and sailed well. Hard to argue with their success, I guess.  The trick, as I see it, is a finding light-ish fin keeler that is robustly built (for ocean sailing) that one can afford...not so easy to accomplish, I guess!  (Hence some people who want to do such voyages compromising with a more affordable, but very different kind of boat, like a Westsail 32 (e.g., Jerome Rand, for his recent solo nonstop circumnavigation).  You pretty much know the boat is going to make it.

“Damien Autour du Monde”

https://www.transboreal.fr/librairie.php?sendpdf=images/chargement/s03.pdf

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More reading: the books of John Kretschmer. He has more sea miles under his belt than most anyone. He makes a strong case for his favorite kinds of boat.

Of course, it's still only one man's opinion.

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13 hours ago, Oceanconcepts said:

I remember from BC Maritime museum, but it has moved. According to Wikipedia, Tilikum is now at the Ogden Point cruise ship terminal in Victoria. Absolutely incredible.

Not sure if this counts as full keel or not... 

 

Tilikum.thumb.jpg.67cc1f5cc6fdbe2810569e6fbf648157.jpg

Wasn't this on the "Mocking Ads on Craigs List" thread? IIRC, it started life as a shipping crate, and then a self-taught naval architect/designer/self-taught shipwright found it at the county dump, and after 20 years of meticulous design work and shipwrighting, he and three of his deranged buddies took it on its maiden voyage, which was cut short by the absence of a bilge pump and the failure of galvanized fasteners in the rot-free pressure treated pine planking and frames. It is now 85% through a 20 year refit and re-fastening, and available to the next serious and delusional visionary voyager with $10,000 USD. No title available. You must move it right away.

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31 minutes ago, Bull City said:

Wasn't this on the "Mocking Ads on Craigs List" thread? IIRC, it started life as a shipping crate, and then a self-taught naval architect/designer/self-taught shipwright found it at the county dump, and after 20 years of meticulous design work and shipwrighting, he and three of his deranged buddies took it on its maiden voyage, which was cut short by the absence of a bilge pump and the failure of galvanized fasteners in the rot-free pressure treated pine planking and frames. It is now 85% through a 20 year refit and re-fastening, and available to the next serious and delusional visionary voyager with $10,000 USD. No title available. You must move it right away.

No, the Tilikum was converted from a real war canoe.

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25 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

No, the Tilikum was converted from a real war canoe.

It is in fact an incredible vessel to see in the flesh, and an incredible story. 

See:
http://www.stexboat.com/books/circumnav/ci_02.htm


Back on topic, if I had to hazard a guess, I’d say it was a full keeler - not that that made it particularly suitable for ocean voyaging :-) :-)

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7 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

It is in fact an incredible vessel to see in the flesh, and an incredible story. 

See:
http://www.stexboat.com/books/circumnav/ci_02.htm


Back on topic, if I had to hazard a guess, I’d say it was a full keeler - not that that made it particularly suitable for ocean voyaging :-) :-)

I was lucky enough to work as a volunteer at the BC Maritime Museum before the downsizing, when they still had Tilikum and Trekka on site. Both very cool boats with amazing histories.

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1 hour ago, Ishmael said:

No, the Tilikum was converted from a real war canoe.

Well, it still looks like a Craigs List classic.

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11 minutes ago, Ishmael said:
2 hours ago, Bull City said:

Well, it still looks like a Craigs List classic.

It's certainly not Yacht Quality.

Voss was obviously a GREAT sailor. TILLIKUM has always looked to me like something knocked together in a the backyard over a lot of beer, with a 'found' hull,  materials scrounged from a neighbors garage, and sails stolen from the laundry while the wife was busy

FB- Doug

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6 hours ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Way, way back in the 1970s, a couple of friends in their 20s pooled their funds and built or had built -I can’t recall the details- a cold-moulded 32 or so foot/9-10m boat they named “Damien”.  They spent five years circumnavigating, from France to Spitsbergen, down the Atlantic and up the Amazon River, then south and through the Southern Ocean, eventually to the remote Kerguelen Islands, continued on around Cape Horn, to South Georgia Island, and back to France.  In the book they later published about the voyage, “Damien Autour du Monde” (Damien Around the World) —and this, in the era (1970s) of Moitessier and his famous Joshua and generally heavy displacement cruising boats— they make the case for their light displacement fin keeler - very robustly built - as ideal for their demanding voyage.  It was light, fast and sailed well. Hard to argue with their success, I guess.  The trick, as I see it, is a finding light-ish fin keeler that is robustly built (for ocean sailing) that one can afford...not so easy to accomplish, I guess!  (Hence some people who want to do such voyages compromising with a more affordable, but very different kind of boat, like a Westsail 32 (e.g., Jerome Rand, for his recent solo nonstop circumnavigation).  You pretty much know the boat is going to make it.

“Damien Autour du Monde”

https://www.transboreal.fr/librairie.php?sendpdf=images/chargement/s03.pdf

Yes, when you see where they've been, you realise that small boats can go far!

Damien-1974.jpg

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1 hour ago, Zonker said:

They are smarter than ze Brits who would like to get all salty and wet sticking their head out the companionway to check the sails.

It is a “smart” thing to have, indeed.  Anyway, a Santa Cruz 50 I helped deliver from Hawaii several years ago had a custom built hard dodger with a hatch in the top of it - for ventilation/to help air flow when at anchor, and to allow you to check the wind indicator at the mast head at night (where there was a little LED shining on it.  I remember it being very useful to be able to peer up easily.

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Wikipedia: Tilikum was a 38-foot (12 m) dugout canoe that was used in an effort to circumnavigate the globe starting in 1901. The boat was a "Nootkan" (Nuu-chah-nulth) canoe which was already old when she was obtained by captain John Voss in April 1901. The boat was built in the early 19th century as a dugout canoe made from a large red cedar log.

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8 hours ago, Al Paca said:

What is it with the French and their dome/bubble hatches?

 

8 hours ago, Zonker said:

They are smarter than ze Brits who would like to get all salty and wet sticking their head out the companionway to check the sails.

Tabarly was an aviator in the French navy, long before Satnav was invented and some bombers had these domes to let the navigators do celestial navigation. He added one to Pen-Duick II close to the chart table  and taught ze Brits one or two things about the interest of light boats during the 1964 OSTAR and the trend caught on in France.

IMG_0699-copy-630x400.jpg

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Full keel beats a fin  sailing in SE Asia at night, you sail over the fishing nets and don't get caught in the prop, whereas a fin comes to a grinding halt and then the fun starts. 

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On 3/27/2021 at 10:53 PM, Blue Crab said:

Wikipedia: Tilikum was a 38-foot (12 m) dugout canoe that was used in an effort to circumnavigate the globe starting in 1901. The boat was a "Nootkan" (Nuu-chah-nulth) canoe which was already old when she was obtained by captain John Voss in April 1901. The boat was built in the early 19th century as a dugout canoe made from a large red cedar log.

Yep.

Below is an old photo of a group of canoes on shore followed by a smaller version of the photo of Tilikum posted above for comparison.   And finally an old photo of 4 dugout canoes being built from a single cedar log.

The Haida war canoes were bigger - similar to the Kwakiutl war canoe photo posted by Ish.

The Haida have been likened to Vikings for their seamanship.  Allegedly they sent out war parties down the coast for revenge, or more often to acquire slaves and/or women.  This could involve travelling 2x the distance of R2AK - and of necessity, crossing Hecate Strait which can be a mean stretch of water.

Mind you, these craft may work fine for coastal expeditions - but I don't think I would want to cross an ocean in one.  Even with a "cabin" added.

1426807425930.jpg

Tilikum.jpg

1334257274061.jpg

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Talking about bad boats to cross oceans, two finnish madmen partially crossed Atlantic in this boat:

9289f6e4bdf747e3a7e5e5f8f99c00c5.jpg

 

They made it, but took a ride in Norwegian freighter. That 2000km was in ship, but still they crossed 3200 km in that motorboat.

0d675b5940bc4d9a86f0e4aad19a71b5.jpg.web

 

Here is few clips of that trip

 

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Point in favor of full keel boats: The level of tech and quality control needed to build a good solid offshore fin keel boat is higher than say an Alberg 30 type. For budget buyers the traditional style boat might provide more comfort in the boat staying together than some random long-abused maintained on a shoestring cheap old race boat.

This is not 100% though, one old full keel boat from the 60s I put a hydraulic autopilot on steered like a drunk because the *hull was flexing from the drive forces* :o I had to get the glass shop to make some stringers and supports.

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On 4/4/2021 at 12:13 AM, Steam Flyer said:

Wow, never heard of that before.... that was crazy!

FB- Doug

Nah, just a little eccentric.

The Aussie who took an amphibious jeep across the Atlantic was crazy.

FKT

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On 3/25/2021 at 4:43 PM, Al Paca said:

When you’re talking gales, you’re talking handholds.   How many is enough. 

I like the handholds Steve Rander installed 1’ above our cabin sole on the settee fronts when he built Amati.  :)  

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3 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

I never thought I would see an ocean crossing in an outboard motorboat sailing wing on wing.

Ever

5C409B94-197C-45C4-851E-0AD598475F3D.jpeg

Not a Saffier? :rolleyes:

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4 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

I never thought I would see an ocean crossing in an outboard motorboat sailing wing on wing.

Ever

5C409B94-197C-45C4-851E-0AD598475F3D.jpeg

The inflatable air beds are a nice touch.