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Local sailing association will be having it's skippers organizational meeting Saturday, and I am told that they use PHRF ratings as essentially a handicap. You win too often and your rating will be adjusted. As this is for fun and a reason to get out, I'm not worried about the scoring, as long as we sail well. As it's the only racing in the area we'll participate and have a good time doing it. 

Question:

Anyone have a system that they've experienced that is used for this that would be consistent and "objective" to avoid personalities entering into the numbers? 

E.G. something like if your corrected time is less than the top 20% of the fleet you subsequently get a handicap adjustment to reduce the difference by 50%? Overtime that should level out the well sailed/prepared boats while leaving the less competitive ones alone? Optionally you can take the bottom 20% and modulate their ratings towards the middle as well. 

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Golf Handicapping for PHRF by John Collins:

PHRF obviously works best when there is a small handicap range in each class. That is fine if you have many boats. If, however, you have few boats with sailors of wide ranging abilities and boats with a wide range of speeds, the racing will be dominated by one or two boats. This leads to unhappiness. A possible remedy, at the local club level, is to institute golf handicapping. PHRF golf handicapping works just the way that golf handicapping works. The PHRF handicap is adjusted after each race, or regatta, based on the race performance. This should only be attempted in small fleets. It should not be used for large regattas or for large fleets sailing in several areas. The way it works is to pick a reference boat, say the boat that corrected out 40 percent of the way down the fleet. Then figure out the seconds per mile that the other boats either beat or lost to this boat. Take a small fraction of this delta, say 10 percent, and lower the faster boat’s handicaps by this amount and raise the slower boats. By taking a small percentage you do not make radical changes to a boat’s handicap. If the boat corrected significantly faster or slower than the reference boat, say by 50 seconds per mile, do nothing with these boats. There has to be a reason for this large delta like luck, or bad luck. You don’t want to contaminate your adjustments with such races. The golf handicap scheme is very simple to apply, at the local level. It can help a small fleet Over time it will tend to even things out. It will still allow the good guy to win overall. - See more at: http://www.ussailing.org/racing/offshore-big-boats/phrf/golf-handicaps/#sthash.v2Yq8etO.dpuf

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There are two Australian proprietary systems available that do performance based, rolling average handicaps, which we call Performance Handicapping Systems (PHS)

https://www.sailsys.com.au/

and

https://topyacht.com.au/web/

 

If you don't want to shell out, Rolling Average PHS is pretty easy to do on a spreadsheet. I can send you details if you want.

Alternatively, you can use 'picnic' minute handicapping:

  1. give each boat a handicap in minutes (which you can calculate from your TOD PHRF and the race length)
  2. for each race, 1st place has 3 minutes added to her handicap, 2nd place has 2 minutes added to her handicap, and 3rd place has one minute added to her handicap (for extra elaboration, particularly if you have a fleet with numerous boats that don't sail well to their PHRF, last place can have 3 minutes subtracted from her handicap, second last 2 minutes, and third last 1 minute.
  3. You can give a booby prize like a bottle of club champagne to the last boat in each race, to soften the blow.
  4. It needs to be understood that this system is for fun and is intended to  distribute the prizes, not to reflect how well sailed or prepared boats are.

 

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Thanks for the suggestions, if you feel comfortable sharing that it would save me some work, and being able to say this is a system used in Oz may make it more palatable. (I'm trying to avoid becoming the race committee at my first meeting, have had the "Give it to the New guy" happen 2x before...) 

 The consensus seems to be to only adjust the "normal" not the extreme performances, and to do so in a damped manner to not totally negate good sailing, or to disregard poor. An Extreme performance being that which is perhaps the 50 sec/ mile above from the median ?The goal is to reduce the ongoing differences, and require the good sailor to be consistently good to win.  

Viewed statistically we would be reducing the sigma of the corrected times, over a long time period, essentially calibrating out some percentage of the consistent differences. 

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The Off Soundings Club adjusts PHRF handicap ratings. Called the Burden of Winning, the first three finishers of a class in a series are assessed a 15%, 10% and 5% adjustment to their time correction factor. The penalty is worked off 5% per year the following years but are cumulative, ie you win get, a 15% penalty, next year you finish second, get an additional 10% penalty but have worked off 5% so end up with a 20% penalty. There are boats winning with a 25% penalty. Just goes to show that a very good sailor will always beat a pretty good sailor.

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We did a fun handicap race once. Added one rule: Gave the boats a sealed envelope containing one additional secret rule to be opened and read at exactly a mid-afternoon given time. The rule said "Turn around now. Retrace the course back to the start line." The fast well sailed boats get hammered. Can only do that trick once a decade or so...

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1 minute ago, Senator Seditious Maximus said:

The handicapped PHRF system has an official name: Participation Trophy

 

...and is probably therefore a useful tool to incentivize participation....

I sailed at one club where each race was scored with both the 'golf' handicap and with Portsmouth yardstick (yes it was a dinghy club).

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34 minutes ago, sailorman44 said:

The Off Soundings Club adjusts PHRF handicap ratings. Called the Burden of Winning, the first three finishers of a class in a series are assessed a 15%, 10% and 5% adjustment to their time correction factor. The penalty is worked off 5% per year the following years but are cumulative, ie you win get, a 15% penalty, next year you finish second, get an additional 10% penalty but have worked off 5% so end up with a 20% penalty. There are boats winning with a 25% penalty. Just goes to show that a very good sailor will always beat a pretty good sailor.

yes but the BoW doesn't apply to the perpetuals - those are straight up PHRF. And Ed Purcell used to win with a 45% penalty, which proves your point ;) 

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I did the math once and concluded that a really well sailed (we're talking top level AC, Olympic & Int'l professional competitors using state of the art instrumentation & calculation) in the best prepared, most premium optimized boat has a 20 second advantage over the average sailed & prepped boat of the same type.

What's a board to do? Golf handicap or not? It really came down to a question of participation vs "fairness", cash & time vs. fun & being careful not to turn PH into a measurement rule.

Lots of issues, but lots of solutuions too.

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So, the guy that prepares his boat, gets fresh sails, and sails well, gets punished.  The guy that doesn’t prepare his boat, has blown out sails, and sails poorly, gets credit.  Sounds like the Democratic Party!  Steal from the rich and give to the poor!  

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9 minutes ago, Parma said:

I did the math once and concluded that a really well sailed (we're talking top level AC, Olympic & Int'l professional competitors using state of the art instrumentation & calculation) in the best prepared, most premium optimized boat has a 20 second advantage over the average sailed & prepped boat of the same type.

What's a board to do? Golf handicap or not? It really came down to a question of participation vs "fairness", cash & time vs. fun & being careful not to turn PH into a measurement rule.

Lots of issues, but lots of solutuions too.

it all depends on the goal of the racing. Wed. Night racing in marblehead has golf handicaps and people are rushing out of work to get there on time. Thursday nights in Beverly don't golf handicap and people are rushing out of work to get there on time. But the vibe on the two nights is very different, with the Wed night entirely non-spin.

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5 minutes ago, silent bob said:

So, the guy that prepares his boat, gets fresh sails, and sails well, gets punished.  The guy that doesn’t prepare his boat, has blown out sails, and sails poorly, gets credit.  Sounds like the Democratic Party!  Steal from the rich and give to the poor!  

I once had a guy call me and say “Lookit, I just spent over $1 million on my boat and have paid professionals aboard so I expect a fair rating” which I took to mean that if he didn’t win the rating was probably not fair.

What do you do?

Later I had a guy call me and say “Lookit, me and my friends are all in our 80s and we just want to sail together one more time before we die. (Yes he really said that) The boat has 2 kayaks, one dinghy on davits, solar panels, a magma and smaller sails so we can handle it. Can you rate us semi-fairly?”

What do you do?

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In PHRF the fun must be on the water. Bring a great fun crew, the best sandwiches, a great attitude, do the best you can, bring cheer to the clubhouse, and applaud the winners. 

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2 hours ago, El Borracho said:

We did a fun handicap race once. Added one rule: Gave the boats a sealed envelope containing one additional secret rule to be opened and read at exactly a mid-afternoon given time. The rule said "Turn around now. Retrace the course back to the start line." The fast well sailed boats get hammered. Can only do that trick once a decade or so...

that almost has the effect of turning it into a pursuit race.. I like it... 

I think pursuit races are fun. Particularly if you're bringing some newbs out on the boat. Somebody that doesn't really know much about the boats that race is gonna get an endorphin buzz every time you pass someone... The Boatyard CRAB regatta in Annapolis is a very popular race. I've entered it almost every year since inception. I do it 1H sometimes but usually try to fill my boat up with friends that don't sail. I think there's a higher number of repeat customers from those pursuit races than others...

YMMV

 

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5 hours ago, LionessRacing said:

Local sailing association will be having it's skippers organizational meeting Saturday, and I am told that they use PHRF ratings as essentially a handicap. You win too often and your rating will be adjusted. As this is for fun and a reason to get out, I'm not worried about the scoring, as long as we sail well. As it's the only racing in the area we'll participate and have a good time doing it. 

Question:

Anyone have a system that they've experienced that is used for this that would be consistent and "objective" to avoid personalities entering into the numbers? 

E.G. something like if your corrected time is less than the top 20% of the fleet you subsequently get a handicap adjustment to reduce the difference by 50%? Overtime that should level out the well sailed/prepared boats while leaving the less competitive ones alone? Optionally you can take the bottom 20% and modulate their ratings towards the middle as well. 

My sailing club quite successfully used a club rating system based on PHRF which was the average of:

  1. Actual PHRF rating
  2. Observed BCR for the past six months i.e. PHRF rating the boat would have needed to tie for first place
  3. Observed BCR2 for the past six months i.e. PHRF rating the boat would have needed to tie for second place

Each boat's club rating was re-calculated twice per year, but you could also use a sliding window.

The system was very successful, but works best when there is consistent participation of the majority of the fleet.

We have since switched to a pursuit format for weekly races, which has proven very popular and is easier to administer, but if we ever went back to a common start I would seriously consider using the same club rating system again.  

Edit: Credit to @Airwick for coming up with the club rating system above.

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5 hours ago, sailorman44 said:

The Off Soundings Club adjusts PHRF handicap ratings. Called the Burden of Winning, the first three finishers of a class in a series are assessed a 15%, 10% and 5% adjustment to their time correction factor. The penalty is worked off 5% per year the following years but are cumulative, ie you win get, a 15% penalty, next year you finish second, get an additional 10% penalty but have worked off 5% so end up with a 20% penalty. There are boats winning with a 25% penalty. Just goes to show that a very good sailor will always beat a pretty good sailor.

I've listened to PHRF bashing for years but always encourge those who complain at a 6 sec / mile PHRF adjustment to look at the time spreads in many 1 design fleets.   If you simple take SF Bay fleets like J-105 or Express 27, the top boats will beat the tail enders by 30 sec to 1 minute per mile.   The best sailors win most of the time and typically by margins that would have PHRF boats screaming for rating adjustments.

Beyond the very top levels of the sport, rating just don't have that much to do with who wins and who doesn't.   Sailing well on the other hand...

 

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Sail your boat as fast as possible over the shortest distance possible and you will win every time.

In PHRF you are racing the Clock, even though there are other boats out there. Given a certain distance you are given an offset. The boats that sails in less time than the offset usually wins.

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As noted above, PHS systems (As opposed to PHRF) are commonly used in Australia.

However, they are almost always used in conjunction with what is often called "championship" races, based strictly on ratings (or over the line if its a one design race).

At the end of the season there will be a trophy for each tally, with the championship one recognised as more noteworthy.

Often not all races are Championhips, maybe one in three. And championship races also usually have a PHS calculation in conjunction with them.

And yes, some people dismiss PHS as just a trophy for turning up (because that's often how you win it). But the majority like it.

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5 hours ago, silent bob said:

So, the guy that prepares his boat, gets fresh sails, and sails well, gets punished.  The guy that doesn’t prepare his boat, has blown out sails, and sails poorly, gets credit.  Sounds like the Democratic Party!  Steal from the rich and give to the poor!  

As opposed to vice versa?  

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5 hours ago, silent bob said:

So, the guy that prepares his boat, gets fresh sails, and sails well, gets punished.  The guy that doesn’t prepare his boat, has blown out sails, and sails poorly, gets credit.  Sounds like the Democratic Party!  Steal from the rich and give to the poor!  

and then there's the people who spend all that money on their boat, and still can't sail for shit and bitch even louder... your analogy is a bit of non-sequitur here. The point of the handicapping system is to level the playing field for disparate boats, not to take anything away from anyone and give it to anyone else.  

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6 hours ago, silent bob said:

So, the guy that prepares his boat, gets fresh sails, and sails well, gets punished.  The guy that doesn’t prepare his boat, has blown out sails, and sails poorly, gets credit.  Sounds like the Democratic Party!  Steal from the rich and give to the poor!  

Of if that same person is even just a little enlightened (they usually aren't) there are not as much punished as they are continually more challenged. 

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50 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

As opposed to vice versa?  

My old yacht club set up a Golf Handicap system.  When you won, you got dinged a few seconds, when you lost you get a credit.  But they didn't set up a limit on how much credit that you could receive.  So, several boats started sandbagging weeks before a "Major Event".  Noted, this was a fleet of Catalina's and Hunter's with BBQ's on the rails.  

 

I took a 30 year old boat, removed about 20 years of built up bottom paint, put a fresh bottom on and put some new sails on it.  We put together a very solid crew, and sailed it to it's potential.  We commonly beat boats, boat for boat, that owed us 15-20 seconds per mile.  We had a great time for many years, until the club split up our fleet's rating band.  We had a group that, on the whole, agreed that the ratings were fair and that the better prepared and better sailed boats were on the podium.  About the only grumbling that we had was a sport boat that was a 20 years newer, half the weight, a foot shorter, and rated the same, and only beat us a few times in five years.  

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Here are the steps to set up and run a rolling average Performance Handicap System (PHS).

  1. PHS uses Time Correction Factor (TCF) which is the factor by which the Elapsed Time of a boat is multiplied to produce a Corrected Time, on which results are based.  A boat's TCF for each subsequent race is the rolling average of her Race TCFs for the best 5 of the last 6 races.
  2.  Convert boats' PHRF ratings to TOT TCFs (there's a formula around).
  3. Set up 5 dummy TCFs for each boat, as follows 1) Initial TCF calculated from PHRF or wherever, 2) Initial TCF - 1xStandard Deviation, 3) Initial TCF - 2xStandard Deviation , 4) Initial TCF + 1xStandard Deviation, 5) Initial TCF + 2xStandard Deviations.  Standard Deviations should be based on any set of values of TCFs that will represent the degree of variability within the fleet.  If you don't want to use Standard Deviations, you can use flat percentages.  I would suggest 10% and 20%, or if you have a fleet that you assess have a very wide variability, say 15% and 30%.
  4. Use the Initial TCF for the first race.
  5. At the end of the first race, identify a 'benchmark boat', usually the boat in the median position based on the TCFs used for that race, calculate each boat's Race TCF, namely the factor by which her Elapsed Time needs to be multiplied by to equal the Corrected Time of the benchmark boat.
  6. Add this real Race TCF to the set of dummy TCFs, for each boat, so that you will now have a series of 6 TCFs for each boat.
  7. The TCF of each boat for the next race is the average of the best 5 of the last 6 Race TCFs
  8. Use the new TCF for the next race.
  9. Repeat Steps 5 to 8 for successive races.

 So, under Step 7, if in the first race a boat has sailed

  • better than her worst dummy TCF (Initial TCF - 2SD), her next TCF will be based on her best 5 results, and the worst dummy TCF will drop off.
  • worse than her worst dummy TCF (Initial TCF - 2xSD) her next TCF will remain based on her initial TCF and the four dummy TCFs, and her first Race TCF will drop off.

In subsequent races, the last or the slowest TCF will drop off the rolling average until 6 races are complete and all dummys have dropped off and subsequent TCFs are all based on actual performance.

Any boat that attempts to sandbag the system by deliberately sailing slow to reduce her handicap will fail because the slow result will just be discarded.

Any boat that gets lucky or shows an unaccustomed flash of brilliance and sails way above her handicaps has just demonstrated what hear actual performance has been, has won a race, and has nothing to complain of when her good result is reflected in her handicap.

If a series is relatively short, you may wish to reduce the numbers in the rolling average, to best 4 out of last 5, best 3 out of last 4, or even just previous Race TCF.  If you do this, the outcomes are a bit more random. 

This is a single number system.  Of course, in any given race, conditions will suit some boats and not suit others, but it produces pretty consistent results in series pointscores.

The big problem arises when you get the Initial TCF radically too fast so that a boat sails maybe 5 races, placing last and never erodes the dummy TCFs she started with.  If you see this problem arising, you need to step in and arbitrarily adjust her handicap.

Another approach that is sometimes used, particularly for short 'regatta' series, is not to use initial or dummy TCFs, but delay computing handicap results until 3 or 4 races have been completed and base TCFs on those actual races.  Some competitors don't like this because they don't know where they stand until will into the regatta, others tolerated it because they think it gives a fairer result.

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1 hour ago, silent bob said:

My old yacht club set up a Golf Handicap system.  When you won, you got dinged a few seconds, when you lost you get a credit.  But they didn't set up a limit on how much credit that you could receive.  So, several boats started sandbagging weeks before a "Major Event".  Noted, this was a fleet of Catalina's and Hunter's with BBQ's on the rails.  

 

I took a 30 year old boat, removed about 20 years of built up bottom paint, put a fresh bottom on and put some new sails on it.  We put together a very solid crew, and sailed it to it's potential.  We commonly beat boats, boat for boat, that owed us 15-20 seconds per mile.  We had a great time for many years, until the club split up our fleet's rating band.  We had a group that, on the whole, agreed that the ratings were fair and that the better prepared and better sailed boats were on the podium.  About the only grumbling that we had was a sport boat that was a 20 years newer, half the weight, a foot shorter, and rated the same, and only beat us a few times in five years.  

Were you stealing from the rich or the poor in that case?

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1 hour ago, Brass said:

Here are the steps to set up and run a rolling average Performance Handicap System (PHS).

  1. PHS uses Time Correction Factor (TCF) which is the factor by which the Elapsed Time of a boat is multiplied to produce a Corrected Time, on which results are based.  A boat's TCF for each subsequent race is the rolling average of her Race TCFs for the best 5 of the last 6 races.
  2.  Convert boats' PHRF ratings to TOT TCFs (there's a formula around).
  3. Set up 5 dummy TCFs for each boat, as follows 1) Initial TCF calculated from PHRF or wherever, 2) Initial TCF - 1xStandard Deviation, 3) Initial TCF - 2xStandard Deviation , 4) Initial TCF + 1xStandard Deviation, 5) Initial TCF + 2xStandard Deviations.  Standard Deviations should be based on any set of values of TCFs that will represent the degree of variability within the fleet.  If you don't want to use Standard Deviations, you can use flat percentages.  I would suggest 10% and 20%, or if you have a fleet that you assess have a very wide variability, say 15% and 30%.
  4. Use the Initial TCF for the first race.
  5. At the end of the first race, identify a 'benchmark boat', usually the boat in the median position based on the TCFs used for that race, calculate each boat's Race TCF, namely the factor by which her Elapsed Time needs to be multiplied by to equal the Corrected Time of the benchmark boat.
  6. Add this real Race TCF to the set of dummy TCFs, for each boat, so that you will now have a series of 6 TCFs for each boat.
  7. The TCF of each boat for the next race is the average of the best 5 of the last 6 Race TCFs
  8. Use the new TCF for the next race.
  9. Repeat Steps 5 to 8 for successive races.

 So, under Step 7, if in the first race a boat has sailed

  • better than her worst dummy TCF (Initial TCF - 2SD), her next TCF will be based on her best 5 results, and the worst dummy TCF will drop off.
  • worse than her worst dummy TCF (Initial TCF - 2xSD) her next TCF will remain based on her initial TCF and the four dummy TCFs, and her first Race TCF will drop off.

In subsequent races, the last or the slowest TCF will drop off the rolling average until 6 races are complete and all dummys have dropped off and subsequent TCFs are all based on actual performance.

Any boat that attempts to sandbag the system by deliberately sailing slow to reduce her handicap will fail because the slow result will just be discarded.

Any boat that gets lucky or shows an unaccustomed flash of brilliance and sails way above her handicaps has just demonstrated what hear actual performance has been, has won a race, and has nothing to complain of when her good result is reflected in her handicap.

If a series is relatively short, you may wish to reduce the numbers in the rolling average, to best 4 out of last 5, best 3 out of last 4, or even just previous Race TCF.  If you do this, the outcomes are a bit more random. 

This is a single number system.  Of course, in any given race, conditions will suit some boats and not suit others, but it produces pretty consistent results in series pointscores.

The big problem arises when you get the Initial TCF radically too fast so that a boat sails maybe 5 races, placing last and never erodes the dummy TCFs she started with.  If you see this problem arising, you need to step in and arbitrarily adjust her handicap.

Another approach that is sometimes used, particularly for short 'regatta' series, is not to use initial or dummy TCFs, but delay computing handicap results until 3 or 4 races have been completed and base TCFs on those actual races.  Some competitors don't like this because they don't know where they stand until will into the regatta, others tolerated it because they think it gives a fairer result.

What a fuckin' pain in the ass to "calculate" what a group of hackers did or did not succeed in doing or not doing during a sail boat parade.  

 

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Posted (edited)

For what it's worth, I bashed together a spreadsheet... 

pretty much what Brass and others have mentioned above. 

the RED numbers were used to generate variation of elapsed times, to see how good/bad sailing affected results, and only affect elapsed times

  • The Bold BLACK are your inputs.
  • A ten race season is shown, with nominal PHRF time factor of 550
  • Equivalent rating sailed based on ET for distance
  • Delta sec/mile for each race if under a  threshold of +/- 12 sec/mile worst case to consider a race (excludes catastrophes) 
  •  3 sec a mile add/subtract if over/under for three race average of sec/mile delta

image.thumb.png.a8ed2031715a7729c0adc14acd0645f3.png

 

handicapping.xlsx

Edited by LionessRacing
updated spreadsheet
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10 hours ago, Parma said:

What do you do?

You rate it fairly in both cases and tell them that you know they would not want it to be any other way, realizing that they have made personal choices to sail their boats as they have

 

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For a while our club tried a "golf" PHRF setup, based on the previous season's results and a guesstimate by the RC chair.  We got dinged a lot.  Maybe 15 seconds a mile?  I had to nail the start and catch every shift in order to win, so it was good training for us.  After a few seasons it got too involved and participation increased, so they dropped it.  Kept us on our toes for a while though.  

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23 hours ago, silent bob said:

So, the guy that prepares his boat, gets fresh sails, and sails well, gets punished.  The guy that doesn’t prepare his boat, has blown out sails, and sails poorly, gets credit.  Sounds like the Democratic Party!  Steal from the rich and give to the poor!  

From what I have seen typically is the person who prepares their boat and wins, then someone files for a rating review, and the skipper never show up to defend their preparation and winning ways.

If you are ever the subject of a rating review, you must approach it as someone who is mounting a defense argument. Get your resume together and get the Facts and only the facts not only about you and your boat, but the fleet. 9 out of 10 PHRF boats cannot start on time, don't know how to figure which end of the line or course is favored, miss all the shifts, sail in opposing current, over stand the laylines and they cannot gybe their boats. Most important is most owner/drivers steer like shit but think they are gods.

Have a witness back up your claim that the accuser cannot sail their way out of a wet paper bag.

In my time on the local and regional board, it has been fun to watch people defend their ratings against people who are just poor sailors.

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The real question - do you handicap/rate the sailors or the boat?

The boat should be rated at the best it can be with good sailors aboard. Anything less and they aren't rated to their top ability.

I used to be on a sailmaker's 'crew'. The sailmaker would sell a sail or two to a downfleet 'racer'. We would then send the owner out with the sailmaker for breakfast while the 'crew' stripped the boat, tuned the rig, set the battens, etc The the sailmaker came on board, nailed the start, sailed the shortest distance, we got the sails up and down within a quarter of the leg - and bang, we moved the boat from bottom of the fleet to at least near the podium. Owner is ecstatic!

 

Then we leave, they put the cruising crap back on, they depend on the same poor sailors that the owner loves to drink with, and he falls back to the bottom. But at least he now knows its not the boat or the rating.

 

So what should his rating be based on? The ringer crew on a temporarily improved boat - in other words, the real potential of the boat? Or should it be for the cruising version with the owners drinking buddies, which is the day-to-day operational potential of the real 'program'?

 

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Years ago we tried adjusting PHRF ratings based on a skipper's performance. Skippers would buy new sails, the most expensive bottom paint, smallest possible o/b motor and still not be able to win ever!  So, RC had the brainwave they would bump ratings based on their difference in secs/mile from the winning boat. Think you can guess what happened.  Things got WAY out of whack. And then the guys with the big bumps would bring more skilled helmsmen on board and that in combination with the now much friendly rating would kick ass.  Moral is, if you decide to adjust ratings away from PHRF you need to clearly stipulate the only person on the helm is the same each and every week.  Probably a few other stipulations with a few minutes thought. We were giving so much time away we finally gave up because the better we sailed the worse we did.

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at my old club, the winner in each class got dinged 10 seconds/mi the following week.

If they won, they continue with that rating.

If they lost, they got back their 10 seconds.

 

If anyone complained, we said the winner was already dinged 10 seconds.  Face it, you suck..

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  • 1 month later...

So we finally had a race day, and Lioness did well enough that the calls for a “Golf Handicap system” are being made. I pasted the @Brass rolling average method with “Australian system” attribution. 
 
We will see what transpires, while most of the boats had Bimini and dodgers up for shade, there were a few uncluttered, that hit the line within 10 sec of start, and sailed well enough that ratings might actually matter. Here is a snippet from first race of two when the land breeze had died, first time I had both the chute and mizzen staysail hoisted. https://youtu.be/FCDfW0oDrRI

appreciate the help. 

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On 3/26/2021 at 12:49 AM, Brass said:

There are two Australian proprietary systems available that do performance based, rolling average handicaps, which we call Performance Handicapping Systems (PHS)

https://www.sailsys.com.au/

and

https://topyacht.com.au/web/

 

If you don't want to shell out, Rolling Average PHS is pretty easy to do on a spreadsheet. I can send you details if you want.

Alternatively, you can use 'picnic' minute handicapping:

  1. give each boat a handicap in minutes (which you can calculate from your TOD PHRF and the race length)
  2. for each race, 1st place has 3 minutes added to her handicap, 2nd place has 2 minutes added to her handicap, and 3rd place has one minute added to her handicap (for extra elaboration, particularly if you have a fleet with numerous boats that don't sail well to their PHRF, last place can have 3 minutes subtracted from her handicap, second last 2 minutes, and third last 1 minute.
  3. You can give a booby prize like a bottle of club champagne to the last boat in each race, to soften the blow.
  4. It needs to be understood that this system is for fun and is intended to  distribute the prizes, not to reflect how well sailed or prepared boats are.

 

Interesting that the US doesn't have a similar system - but TopYacht and SailSys are effectively similar, except SailSys has the (to me)great advantage of better averaging over series and years, meaning the changes are smaller and over time give you a far better, fairer result.

Having sailed with PHS or its equivalent for 50 years, it is not correct to say this system in any way helps poorly prepared and poorly sailed yachts - it rewards well sailed yachts that sail consistently. In order to sail consistently you need all of the things yachts sailed under IRC etc need to succeed.

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Aren't they all flawed in some way, and you should really decide what the aim of the race/series is ?

Are you looking to reward absolute performance, money, fleet size, consistent attendance, improvement, every one wins one etc.

Some boats can afford 4 jibs, some struggle to get 50% constant crew, some cruisers will go 10+% faster for an individual race with good crew, some turn up in all winds and conditions etc, some the same two boats win every race, and so the fleet gets smaller every year.

 

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5 hours ago, Xtasea said:

Aren't they all flawed in some way, and you should really decide what the aim of the race/series is ?

Are you looking to reward absolute performance, money, fleet size, consistent attendance, improvement, every one wins one etc.

Some boats can afford 4 jibs, some struggle to get 50% constant crew, some cruisers will go 10+% faster for an individual race with good crew, some turn up in all winds and conditions etc, some the same two boats win every race, and so the fleet gets smaller every year.

 

Of course they are all flawed, but in the end it comes down to what your entrants want, and expect. For basic club racing, a PHS adjusted handicap keeps people interested and mostly happy. If they buy a new sail, their handicap goes up, if they have three horror races in a row, it will go down, but they won't win the series.

"Reward" is not generally seen as the only criteria for entry. Any boat has a good day if it beats the boat it wants to beat.

As I said above, a yacht that sails well, consistently, is the one that will be vying for the series win. However, if it suddenly, in one race, has an absolute blinder, its handicap change can be limited, and vice versa when they have a shocker. meaning it is not as easy to cheat the system.

But if you don't have enough of the yachts that are happy to race every week, without new sails etc, then the series don't last. 

And then with IRC or ORC etc, if your yacht isn't favoured, it doesn't matter how hard to try, you will never win.

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I've raced at several clubs which use both a RYA PY or equivalent for most races and trophies.. Then every so often have a race, often a pursuit race, in which the handicap is based on the boats average performance for the other races.

 That gives  the good sailors a chance to win and occasionally those not so good, to win something..

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1 hour ago, sailman said:

So this system rates the skipper/crew rather than the boat?

Not quite sure who you're questioning. 

But there are several systems which rate the person not the boat, though it's often a combination, especially in classes where there are few Identical boats.... 

 

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Rating system that reward poor performance does not help sailors get better.  And if whoever is running this circus has a bad day or just hates you, well, you will never get the break these systems think they can give you.  But due to widespread use, it seems a lot of you like being screwed over. So why try to change it? Just enjoy! 

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Check out vprs.org. Good compromise £20 annual rating fee totally transparent and free to download any boats certificate to self police boats submitted data. A light version of ORC.

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In my 50+ years of club and regional level racing, I've had results from DFL to winning occasionally and even was club boat of the year a few years back due to consistency and entering enough events to pile up the points. Local fleets from Lake Ontario, New England, SFBay and now Myrtle Beach,  have varied in entries, boat size, talent and enthusiasm; and at the end of the day, it's what you have to work with that matters most.

We will probably travel short distances (< 100 miles) to race weekend events at Southport, NC or Charleston, SC on occasion, but the Long Bay Sailing Association is who is putting on events, has a committed guy on a fast power boat that sets a decent course and line; and gets other sailboats out on a biweekly basis.

If going to a Handicap system instead of a rating increases the participation that's fine with me. I'd prefer it to have some level of damping, so that sandbagging is not a feature, and that well sailed boats are more likely to place well. If one of the not so well sailed boats, manages to have a breakthrough race, good one them, it's reminiscent of a round of golf I played about 22 yrs back in a company league where the CFO was giving me more than a stroke a hole, and I shot 8 under my handicap... Never before or since, but I can still recall the feeling of everything just working for a golden moment.

 

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On 3/25/2021 at 8:03 AM, dacapo said:

Golf Handicapping for PHRF by John Collins:

PHRF obviously works best when there is a small handicap range in each class. That is fine if you have many boats. If, however, you have few boats with sailors of wide ranging abilities and boats with a wide range of speeds, the racing will be dominated by one or two boats. This leads to unhappiness. A possible remedy, at the local club level, is to institute golf handicapping. PHRF golf handicapping works just the way that golf handicapping works. The PHRF handicap is adjusted after each race, or regatta, based on the race performance. This should only be attempted in small fleets. It should not be used for large regattas or for large fleets sailing in several areas. The way it works is to pick a reference boat, say the boat that corrected out 40 percent of the way down the fleet. Then figure out the seconds per mile that the other boats either beat or lost to this boat. Take a small fraction of this delta, say 10 percent, and lower the faster boat’s handicaps by this amount and raise the slower boats. By taking a small percentage you do not make radical changes to a boat’s handicap. If the boat corrected significantly faster or slower than the reference boat, say by 50 seconds per mile, do nothing with these boats. There has to be a reason for this large delta like luck, or bad luck. You don’t want to contaminate your adjustments with such races. The golf handicap scheme is very simple to apply, at the local level. It can help a small fleet Over time it will tend to even things out. It will still allow the good guy to win overall. - See more at: http://www.ussailing.org/racing/offshore-big-boats/phrf/golf-handicaps/#sthash.v2Yq8etO.dpuf

John Collins is a fucking douchebag hack

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39 minutes ago, jesposito said:

John Collins is a fucking douchebag hack

i dont agree with golf handicaps, i just directed the Op in the right direction

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On 3/25/2021 at 7:15 AM, Timur said:

The handicapped PHRF system has an official name: Participation Trophy

 

On 3/25/2021 at 7:27 AM, JohnMB said:

...and is probably therefore a useful tool to incentivize participation....

I sailed at one club where each race was scored with both the 'golf' handicap and with Portsmouth yardstick (yes it was a dinghy club).

When you are having what are supposed to be fun races like the mid week Summer Wet Wednesday Series, there is nothing wrong with hitting the top 2 spots. It is a pain for the volunteers who run the races to track the ratings. I use a spread sheet, print it out and then I have a record to go back to in case I had a few too many rums and screwed the pooch. :)

We not only hit the top 2 but also lift the last 2. It is a pain but it usually takes about 6 races of the 22 race series to see the fleet start moving to parity. It becomes close by race 15. 

Weekend racing is not treated this way. Only the Summer WW series and we do get participation from boats that would not normally race.

 

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On 3/26/2021 at 12:49 AM, Brass said:

There are two Australian proprietary systems available that do performance based, rolling average handicaps, which we call Performance Handicapping Systems (PHS)

https://www.sailsys.com.au/

and

https://topyacht.com.au/web/

 

If you don't want to shell out, Rolling Average PHS is pretty easy to do on a spreadsheet. I can send you details if you want.

Alternatively, you can use 'picnic' minute handicapping:

  1. give each boat a handicap in minutes (which you can calculate from your TOD PHRF and the race length)
  2. for each race, 1st place has 3 minutes added to her handicap, 2nd place has 2 minutes added to her handicap, and 3rd place has one minute added to her handicap (for extra elaboration, particularly if you have a fleet with numerous boats that don't sail well to their PHRF, last place can have 3 minutes subtracted from her handicap, second last 2 minutes, and third last 1 minute.
  3. You can give a booby prize like a bottle of club champagne to the last boat in each race, to soften the blow.
  4. It needs to be understood that this system is for fun and is intended to  distribute the prizes, not to reflect how well sailed or prepared boats are.

 

Not a fan of the "picnic" handicapping.  It can whack you hard for a small win and you pogo all over the place.

The topyacht system can take a long time to work out anomalies depending on the adjustment factor and length of the rolling average.  IMHO the same basic rules apply as any handicap, if the boats are too far apart then the numbers can be a mess.  The more consistent relative performance is, the more reliable the numbers become.  

There's a handicapper here locally that seems to do a really good job of picking approximate first numbers.  At least, he seems to give us numbers which usually make sense.   Sometimes we get numbers from handicappers that are way off just because we beat some boat that should be faster than us in some race.

In short, As a sailor and not a handicapper, if you have a database or measurement system to base your first guess at, IMHO the whole thing will run more effectively.

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33 minutes ago, Spoonie said:

 

There's a handicapper here locally that seems to do a really good job of picking approximate first numbers.  At least, he seems to give us numbers which usually make sense.   Sometimes we get numbers from handicappers that are way off just because we beat some boat that should be faster than us in some race.

In short, As a sailor and not a handicapper, if you have a database or measurement system to base your first guess at, IMHO the whole thing will run more effectively.

I am sure the guy you are referring to is actually the guy that worked out this PHS system, and in fact TopYacht copied it.

Your last line is the clincher, and I should have said it before - unless you start with good numbers, it is all academic anyway!

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To the argument that newcomers need some kind of rating help with  good finishes I submit that if losing drives you away from competing then no sport is good for that person

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2 hours ago, sailman said:

To the argument that newcomers need some kind of rating help with  good finishes I submit that if losing drives you away from competing then no sport is good for that person

At club level, that is a pretty stupid attitude to take. It will drive people way from racing and therefore also drive them out of clubs. By reducing fleet numbers it will also reduce crewing opportunities. Whilst PHS does help out the poor/new sailors it also reduces the need for club races to spend money on the latest and greatest sails etc to be competitive at club level. 

If you have a decent racing budget and a top crew and don't like being beaten by PHS hacks, then maybe you should race with a measurment handicap. Perhaps you don't want to find out that you are not a good sailor, just the least worst at your club. 

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On 5/25/2021 at 11:08 AM, mccroc said:

I am sure the guy you are referring to is actually the guy that worked out this PHS system, and in fact TopYacht copied it.

Your last line is the clincher, and I should have said it before - unless you start with good numbers, it is all academic anyway!

I think not.  The guy behind topyacht is pretty smart on this stuff.  He's written quite a few things on handicapping systems.

As mentioned, the big problem with the floating handicap is just the time for anomalies to get back to the mean.  We got whacked hard one year at our local club after some really great results in variable conditions.  3 years later I think we're back to about the same spot we were rating wise before then.  There's a couple of boats who were gifted good handicaps that on the water based on sheer straight line speed, should have been a bit higher I think.  But I'm not a handicapper and I have vested interests so *shrug*

The good handicapper guy I mentioned spends a lot of time at it.  We won a race by 30mins over the line one year because we managed to whip around a headland with a dying breeze and flood in current.  The boat literally two lengths behind us wasn't so lucky.  It doesn't make sense to let "The system" whack you for what was ostensibly an anomaly event, it would kill you for the rest of the series, so he intervened.  Kind of like any system, you need to know when it's producing bogus results.

What I do see is if your corrected time constantly comes out just above the mean or just below it, then you struggle.  If you pogo stick backwards and forwards, you tend to do better.  on raw scoring:  1+5 = 6, 3+3 = 6.  The former wins.  Handicap wise, pogo sticking helps you to game the handicap.  It doesn't encourage consistent, high performing sailing, or at least, consistent high performing sailors will suffer a little more.

It all comes out in the wash eventually.  Just takes time.  At the end of the day, club racing is practice racing. For our part, we take pleasure in how we fared against certain other boats over the line.  If we win or not on handicap comes down to the random luck of whether a boat 10' longer but finished behind us sailed closer to their waterline that day.

I guess some people don't see it that way though.  

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On 3/25/2021 at 11:46 AM, Parma said:

I once had a guy call me and say “Lookit, I just spent over $1 million on my boat and have paid professionals aboard so I expect a fair rating” which I took to mean that if he didn’t win the rating was probably not fair.

What do you do?

Later I had a guy call me and say “Lookit, me and my friends are all in our 80s and we just want to sail together one more time before we die. (Yes he really said that) The boat has 2 kayaks, one dinghy on davits, solar panels, a magma and smaller sails so we can handle it. Can you rate us semi-fairly?”

What do you do?

1 sec/mile of kayak foot

 3 sex/mile per 100 bbqft^2

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On 5/25/2021 at 4:59 AM, sailman said:

To the argument that newcomers need some kind of rating help with  good finishes I submit that if losing drives you away from competing then no sport is good for that person

Winning is one thing, competing is another. Most people I know race for the competition not the wins. (The happy ones anyways) Nobody likes to come out when they are destined for last from the time they leave the dock. Make a rating system that gives them a chance to be near others so they can appreciate their better races and learn from their worse ones, and they are more likely to keep coming. But as has been said, depends on the purpose of your series

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On 5/25/2021 at 8:24 AM, The Dark Knight said:

At club level, that is a pretty stupid attitude to take. It will drive people way from racing and therefore also drive them out of clubs. By reducing fleet numbers it will also reduce crewing opportunities. Whilst PHS does help out the poor/new sailors it also reduces the need for club races to spend money on the latest and greatest sails etc to be competitive at club level. 

If you have a decent racing budget and a top crew and don't like being beaten by PHS hacks, then maybe you should race with a measurment handicap. Perhaps you don't want to find out that you are not a good sailor, just the least worst at your club. 

Break out the participation Trophies then.

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11 hours ago, sailman said:

Break out the participation Trophies then.

do you think that an arms race at the bottom end of club level is a good way to encourge boats on the water giving crewing opportunities?

It will kill off racing for anyone who cannot afford new race sails and do all the things preparing a boat to be competitive, before it even hits the water. 

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2 hours ago, The Dark Knight said:

do you think that an arms race at the bottom end of club level is a good way to encourge boats on the water giving crewing opportunities?

It will kill off racing for anyone who cannot afford new race sails and do all the things preparing a boat to be competitive, before it even hits the water. 

Do you race sailboats?

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Like I said, Club racing is practice racing.  Under PHS, if your boat shows improvement, you get better results, which for a practice race sounds like a good thing.  It just sucks for top guys.  Most top guys don't really care that much about whether they win or not at club level as they have bigger fish to fry.  At our club at least, hanging around for the after race presentations is usually enough to go home with a prize.

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On 6/2/2021 at 11:48 AM, sailman said:

Do you race sailboats?

Yes, in a club that would probably lose half it's fleet if PHS was killed off. 

Aside from PHS, we also have IRC & AMS divisions for the more serious racers. Their results tend to be dominated by competitive designs with newish sails.

 

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8 hours ago, The Dark Knight said:

Yes, in a club that would probably lose half it's fleet if PHS was killed off. 

Aside from PHS, we also have IRC & AMS divisions for the more serious racers. Their results tend to be dominated by competitive designs with newish sails.

 

I would rather give up racing then submit to a PHS style system.  Learn to sail and improve your self and team.

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14 minutes ago, sailman said:

I would rather give up racing then submit to a PHS style system.  Learn to sail and improve your self and team.

How would the crew improve if the owners give up because their boat will never be competitive because of the boats design and the buckets of money needed to be spent to get it up to speed?

clubs need boats on the water to give crewing opportunities. 

You sound like the type of person who gives yachting a elitist reputation.


 

 

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39 minutes ago, The Dark Knight said:

How would the crew improve if the owners give up because their boat will never be competitive because of the boats design and the buckets of money needed to be spent to get it up to speed?

clubs need boats on the water to give crewing opportunities. 

You sound like the type of person who gives yachting a elitist reputation.


 

 

Why are you treating sailing different from every other team sport?

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What if you have a few of the same type of boats out there but not enough of em to race one-design?  Does each boat have a different rating based on their performance?  What if one guys is consistently well in front of the other guys with the same boat- you give the good performing boat a different rating?

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9 minutes ago, The Dark Knight said:

which other team sports can you buy your way to near the top?

Formula one?

All of the money spent on gear, won't by itself put you on the podium, but it can fix problems, and it certainly can rent talent that can get the properly equipped car/boat there.

We raced yesterday, and our RC had buggered back to France to visit family, now that travel restrictions were over. We defined  starting line between a fixed Daymark and a sea buoy, raced out to a sequence of ATON and took our own time crossing the start line on the way back.

The 2nd day of racing in over a year, and the new to boat crew struggling with the Mizzen, Mizzen staysail trim and a heavy boat in < 10 kts with good swells.

We had fun, losing initially to a lighter boat that was able to set a light spinnaker, and nearly grinding them down on the last leg as the wind came up and we close reached with genoa, main, mizzen staysail and mizzen.

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22 minutes ago, The Dark Knight said:

which other team sports can you buy your way to near the top?

I see plenty of boats out there that are well prepared and sometimes have pros on board that get beaten on a regular basis.  It is a cop out to use the "arms" race argument.  The preamble to all PHRF regions state in some form or another that all boats are to be race ready and in racing trim.  If you choose to race with old sails, cruising gear and an unfair/unclean bottom; that is your choice.  Penalizing those with talent, good teams and prepared boats hurts the sport.

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Just now, sailman said:

I see plenty of boats out there that are well prepared and sometimes have pros on board that get beaten on a regular basis.  It is a cop out to use the "arms" race argument.  The preamble to all PHRF regions state in some form or another that all boats are to be race ready and in racing trim.  If you choose to race with old sails, cruising gear and an unfair/unclean bottom; that is your choice.  Penalizing those with talent, good teams and prepared boats hurts the sport.

The best teams with the best boats get to win the best "trophies" which in Australia means winning IRC, ORC or AMS. So there is no penalty for those teams other than they probably won't win any PHS trophy, but they don't care about that. 

So why do you want to kill the race fleets? 

 

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57 minutes ago, The Dark Knight said:

which other team sports can you buy your way to near the top?

Uh.. all of them?  Best paid players and equipment costs money.

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5 hours ago, The Dark Knight said:

The best teams with the best boats get to win the best "trophies" which in Australia means winning IRC, ORC or AMS. So there is no penalty for those teams other than they probably won't win any PHS trophy, but they don't care about that. 

So why do you want to kill the race fleets? 

 

I don’t, but penalizing skill, good teams and boat prep will certainly be detrimental

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1 hour ago, sailman said:

I don’t, but penalizing skill, good teams and boat prep will certainly be detrimental

To whom? The top Sailors who generally don't really care?  Or the guy who spends gobs of time and money chasing a better rating to win a club pickle dish? 

You say that like you've tried it and seen your fleets massively diminished?  That's not the experience of Aus (and NZ?) 

We had maybe 70 or 80 boats on the water yesterday, in "winter" all racing phs. 

At a club level, the typical Sailor is quite variable in how they sail. Under phs If you sail better than your average, you win. If you keep sailing better than your average you keep winning. You win when you improve.  If you stop improving, you lose. What's the problem? 

But more over, as an unmeasured rating, it means anyone can bring a boat and start racing, without having everything measured, and know in the long run they will be treated relatively fairly.  One less chunk of beauracracy to deal with. 

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9 minutes ago, Spoonie said:

To whom? The top Sailors who generally don't really care?  Or the guy who spends gobs of time and money chasing a better rating to win a club pickle dish? 

You say that like you've tried it and seen your fleets massively diminished?  That's not the experience of Aus (and NZ?) 

We had maybe 70 or 80 boats on the water yesterday, in "winter" all racing phs. 

At a club level, the typical Sailor is quite variable in how they sail. Under phs If you sail better than your average, you win. If you keep sailing better than your average you keep winning. You win when you improve.  If you stop improving, you lose. What's the problem? 

But more over, as an unmeasured rating, it means anyone can bring a boat and start racing, without having everything measured, and know in the long run they will be treated relatively fairly.  One less chunk of beauracracy to deal with. 

If it works for you, great. Keep it in AUS

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About PHRF from Wiki

 

Quote

PHRF handicaps are assigned by individuals or committees associated with specific fleets. Handicaps are assigned to a given production class considering predominant local conditions and the handicapper’s experience in handicapping similar boats. These ratings are based on observed performance and any requisite adjustments generally become evident after 5-10 races have been sailed. Scoring options include Time-on-Distance or Time-on-Time.

^^^^^^ It's funny that sailman mocks PHS about being a participation trophy, but PHRF is also a participation trophy as it is a subjective rating based on observations to create the base rating.

At least our serious IRC, AMS & ORC rating are based on measurements. 

 

 

Quote

An assumption that a rated boat is in Bristol racing condition - with a clean bottom, new sails, and an experienced crew. This assumption excludes those with less financial resources and sailing experience from the winners circle and discourages many boats from racing. PHRF shares this flaw with ALL sail racing rating systems, as those utilizing mathematical computation models also assume shapes are perfect, as designed - not worn, dirty, blown out, sagging, or deliberately altered.

 

 

4 hours ago, Spoonie said:

To whom? The top Sailors who generally don't really care?  Or the guy who spends gobs of time and money chasing a better rating to win a club pickle dish?

Maybe sailman likes to impress people in the club by the PHRF rating of his boat, that he can't sail to. A falling PHS racing will leave him feeling embarrassed.

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3 hours ago, The Dark Knight said:

About PHRF from Wiki

 

^^^^^^ It's funny that sailman mocks PHS about being a participation trophy, but PHRF is also a participation trophy as it is a subjective rating based on observations to create the base rating.

At least our serious IRC, AMS & ORC rating are based on measurements. 

 

 

 

 

Maybe sailman likes to impress people in the club by the PHRF rating of his boat, that he can't sail to. A falling PHS racing will leave him feeling embarrassed.

Hoppy, With your statement above, it appears you also do not understand how performance handicaps work! The statement above is more applicable to measurement based handicaps?

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7 hours ago, The Dark Knight said:

About PHRF from Wiki

 

^^^^^^ It's funny that sailman mocks PHS about being a participation trophy, but PHRF is also a participation trophy as it is a subjective rating based on observations to create the base rating.

At least our serious IRC, AMS & ORC rating are based on measurements. 

 

 

 

 

Maybe sailman likes to impress people in the club by the PHRF rating of his boat, that he can't sail to. A falling PHS racing will leave him feeling embarrassed.

I think you might like to rethink that about AMS.  Maybe AMS is 'based' on measurement but what happens after that is the problem.

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19 minutes ago, trt131 said:

I think you might like to rethink that about AMS.  Maybe AMS is 'based' on measurement but what happens after that is the problem.

I know there are issues with AMS.... 

It does not change that sailman is a clown who seems to be happy to kill sailing fleets. We get 40 boats out on the water for good weather twilights and if the rulling body/club took Sailman's attitude, it would decimate the fleet.  

 

I would never have played in my work place golfing competitions if I had to play off scratch. Might as we just go to a public course with mates instead.

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8 hours ago, The Dark Knight said:

Maybe sailman likes to impress people in the club by the PHRF rating of his boat, that he can't sail to. A falling PHS racing will leave him feeling embarrassed.

To be fair, I was pretty stoked to win my first laser club championship (scratch, not handicap, though I think I won both) a few years back.   I'm no olympic hopeful, but I like to think I've done pretty well for myself over the years.  Before then, I had never won a club championship though.  

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2 hours ago, The Dark Knight said:

I know there are issues with AMS.... 

It does not change that sailman is a clown who seems to be happy to kill sailing fleets. We get 40 boats out on the water for good weather twilights and if the rulling body/club took Sailman's attitude, it would decimate the fleet.  

 

I would never have played in my work place golfing competitions if I had to play off scratch. Might as we just go to a public course with mates instead.

I guess a reasoned discussion is above your education level.  I disagree with your assertions and the PHS system.  Since you have refuted any of my criticisms and now resort to personal attacks I will take this as my point being proven.  
 

Happy Sailing!

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54 minutes ago, sailman said:

I guess a reasoned discussion is above your education level.  I disagree with your assertions and the PHS system.  Since you have refuted any of my criticisms and now resort to personal attacks I will take this as my point being proven.  
 

Happy Sailing!

I think the discussion pssed you level ages ago. You have made no attempt to defend that your position would kill club racing fleets that reduces the opportunities for people to start crewing, maintaining the impression that sailing is just for the elites.

I'd rather sail in a fleet of 10 competitive boats chasing a measurment rating trophy, plus another 30 making up the numbers for PHS trophy, than just race in a fleet of 10.

 

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2 hours ago, Spoonie said:

To be fair, I was pretty stoked to win my first laser club championship (scratch, not handicap, though I think I won both) a few years back.   I'm no olympic hopeful, but I like to think I've done pretty well for myself over the years.  Before then, I had never won a club championship though.  

fair enough. Lasers and the like don't need PHS to cancel out the big budget expenditure and competitive designs advantages that some have at club level.

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The above mentioned concept of tiers makes great sense.

At some level of (inter)national competition you use a rule based rating, and at some level of local you can use a handicap based one to maximize the participation. Those who choose to fund the higher levels won't be frustrated by having their investments deprecated by their success.

At the club level, those who choose to pay for new sails, divers and upgraded gear will have some advantage.

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5 hours ago, sailman said:

I guess a reasoned discussion is above your education level.  I disagree with your assertions and the PHS system.  Since you have refuted any of my criticisms and now resort to personal attacks I will take this as my point being proven.  
 

Happy Sailing!

If you disagree with PHS,  fine you don't have to play that game.

Most if not all of the major races & series in Oz have the major trophy for the measurement class,  with a secondary trophy for PHS.  CYCA Winter Series being the biggest exception to this rule I can think of,  & it gets 100 or so boats on a sunny Sunday,  for the pure enjoyment of being there.

As someone who has & (still does often),  raced in the measurement divisions,  with some success,  my Hobart Record includes 1st, 3rd, 4th & 5th overall,  but for most of my last 10 or so Hobarts have raced PHS,  including 2, 1sts,  a couple of 2nds, and a few others in the top 5.  When asked if I've ever won,  I will only claim the Overall win, (& a line