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      What’s up, all? I’m not a beginner sailor. I’ve owned 4 sailboats so far....a flying Scot,a catalina 22,Chevy lee 28’, and finally I got an opti to teach my grandson!            
     So again, I’m not looking for a “beginner boat”. However I would call myself new to dinghy Sailing and planing. I was a cruiser. My 28 was full keel and SLOW!

       So I’m trying to figure out which dinghy will suit me best.... I want a planing hull (I’m 180 lbs or so)that can be single-handed but has capacity for up to 4. With a spin/gennaker and jib. 
       I’ll probably sail solo mostly but I want the fractional sloop type rig cause I will be teaching some beginners and I want them to be at home on cruising boats and to go with me double handing the dinghy.also I would like to be able to take 2, maybe 3 adults with me in reasonable comfort.
       I’ve flown a spinnaker a grand total of I think 3 times but I want it. I want to learn it and I want to plane...fast!    I’m fairly fit, and have always done “balance” sports( skateboarding, water skiing, wakeboarding, etc. 

    so, yeah, I want a performance boat. ...oh almost forgot, it’s gotta be cheap!(lol). I’m hoping to spend under $4000.

    So what do you think, how close to these wants can I get for that. What designs are good? I like that topaz  Argo? Or one of the rs models.

 
        I’ve never used a trapeze but it looks fun.

 

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  • 1 month later...

I'm always shopping for boats - I think budget is a main concern (for you) - plus, you didn't mention how you are going to store and launch, etc.

RS and Topaz stuff looks great but there are so many options (boats). If you want 3 Adults you have to go to a certain size range - like the RA Quest. You will spend 12K by the time you are done. I just tried one out last week. 

It's always hard making the decision between that an 10% of the price for something old. As all sailors know, no boat does it all. Sometimes you may have to think of 2 boats - it could be cheaper and better to get a "one man planing boat" used and then something more for the adults and teaching.

I'm an older sailor also - but in good shape and have zero problem moving around on a boat.

If it wasn't for the planing I'd say something simple like an American  Sail or CL 14 or 16 or Hobie Holder. They can be had for $800 to 2500 (depending on options and condition) and do everything except plane. 

Even a new boat like the Quest - I don't think it is designed to plane except downwind with the right sail.

You are going to have to make a list and check it twice. I think some dinghies plane in all directions, but those are weight sensitive and you won't be taking the friends out for a picnic. 

I hope some others will chime in - but, basically, keep your eyes off those shiny new boats if you are cheap (unless you want a one person racing rig).

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On 3/26/2021 at 9:11 AM, Rezzin said:

      What’s up, all? I’m not a beginner sailor. I’ve owned 4 sailboats so far....a flying Scot,a catalina 22,Chevy lee 28’, and finally I got an opti to teach my grandson!            
     So again, I’m not looking for a “beginner boat”. However I would call myself new to dinghy Sailing and planing. I was a cruiser. My 28 was full keel and SLOW!

       So I’m trying to figure out which dinghy will suit me best.... I want a planing hull (I’m 180 lbs or so)that can be single-handed but has capacity for up to 4. With a spin/gennaker and jib. 
       I’ll probably sail solo mostly but I want the fractional sloop type rig cause I will be teaching some beginners and I want them to be at home on cruising boats and to go with me double handing the dinghy.also I would like to be able to take 2, maybe 3 adults with me in reasonable comfort.
       I’ve flown a spinnaker a grand total of I think 3 times but I want it. I want to learn it and I want to plane...fast!    I’m fairly fit, and have always done “balance” sports( skateboarding, water skiing, wakeboarding, etc. 

    so, yeah, I want a performance boat. ...oh almost forgot, it’s gotta be cheap!(lol). I’m hoping to spend under $4000.

    So what do you think, how close to these wants can I get for that. What designs are good? I like that topaz  Argo? Or one of the rs models.

 
        I’ve never used a trapeze but it looks fun.

 

So, a planing boat that can be singlehanded but carry up to 3 people, with a spinnaker, and maybe a trapeze, available in good sailing condition for $4k or less.

I hate to say this, but it's a pretty damn short list. The Buccaneer (no trap, a bit crowded for 3), Lightning (difficult to singlehand, but do-able, regular cw 3 w room for 4), Flying Scot (you already know), Flying Dutchman (hard to find one), Interlake (a little smaller and less "high performance" than the Lightning and FS)

Johnson 18? Hard to find and 3 is a crowd, but a very cool boat. Fusion 15? ditto

Boats like the Viper or the Melges 15 are a great fit for your criteria -except- for price.

Maybe an E-scow, maybe a Star... you'd think that this would be a very desirable market niche, but then if you thought that, you're expecting rational behavior from human beings.

FB- Doug

 

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Maybe you want too many capabilities in one boat ( as has been pointed out before ). Let's say you want A - planing hull and  B - capacity for four and  C - spin/gennaker and jib and D - cheap. This will not be easy to do. First, decide which capability is most important to you. Find a boat that will give you that first choice and see if it will give you any of the others.Then rearrange and juggle your priorities a bit. You mentioned that you will " probably sail solo mostly " so start there. That will narrow the choices tremendously. This process has bedeviled most sailors so good luck. You already have had three sailboats ( Opti doesn't count ) that are gone so you know what you don't want. Just keep buying and trying small boats until you run out of money or die. It's great fun. Happy Sailing!

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For me the cost of anything is the buy price, plus interest (if any), minus the sell price.

If one considers they will buy a boat and keep it forever than, yes, you are correct------anything over $4k is off the table.

On the other hand, some boats may be in a growing class, from a  builder with reputation, and may, in the end only cost something less than the original sticker....presuming a person keeps a boat (or other toy) for some shorter period than "till-death-do-us-part" and sells it.  

In any event, the OP can ignore my post..... I won't be offended.

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

I went through pretty much the same desire list. I narrowed down to an RS Vision and Raider. Raider was top of my list but their sales capability was the worst I'd ever seen. Got the Vision. Works great w/ two people, kind of tight but OK w/ three, and I've got my hands full w/ just me but enjoy it. A used Vision might not be a bad option if you can find one.

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The Raider has NO sales capability now.

Builder retired. Covid stopped new owner of the molds from doing anything with them.

So there is no "sales force."

There are a few around. The designer just sold his. Has one more in the back yard.

Too bad, as that boat in its final configuration was a really nice craft.

Dave Ellis

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This was 7 years ago. I tried for about a year. At one point there was a guy in Milwaukee who was a dealer and said he'd be driving through St Paul on his way to deliver one west of here and we set a time to meet so I could look at it. He never showed and when I called him later he said he'd forgot. 

Everything I heard about the Raiders was positive for what I wanted. I think they just needed someone who knew how to run a business. I'm still sad about it because I think I'd have liked it better than my RS.

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On 5/2/2021 at 3:44 PM, patchy said:

For me the cost of anything is the buy price, plus interest (if any), minus the sell price.

If one considers they will buy a boat and keep it forever than, yes, you are correct------anything over $4k is off the table.

On the other hand, some boats may be in a growing class, from a  builder with reputation, and may, in the end only cost something less than the original sticker....presuming a person keeps a boat (or other toy) for some shorter period than "till-death-do-us-part" and sells it.  

In any event, the OP can ignore my post..... I won't be offended.

 

This is very much true for many here who now have the money in the bank. My doc (saw him yesterday - I'll live long!)  showed me pics of a beat-up Laser he was looking at for close to 4K. He just wanted to learn to sail again. When I got back home here I wrote a two page letter to send suggestion he consider a Rocket or a Zest, etc. - at 5K, which if he doesn't like he can sell for 3K in 4 or 5 years.

Buy the Laser and chances are he'd have to put a grand or two into it and then sell it for "who knowns what" (he knowns nothing about the various builders, years of manufacture, etc.) . Plus, he's not going to race and is about 60 so I if he can sit partially in a boat instead of on-top I think he'd be happier. 

I'd spend money on a boat that had resale. It's so easy to be cheap but I paid 15K for my P18 and then 36K for my used Sprint - both of which I've sold and that money has collected interest. It's more that it's hard to find the perfect boat for me (older guy who surely will get even older). Being conservative, I'm figuring if I get 5 years before I have to get "even older guy boat", I'll be happy. 

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On 5/29/2021 at 12:24 PM, craigiri said:

Plus, he's not going to race and is about 60 so I if he can sit partially in a boat instead of on-top I think he'd be happier. 

 

 

Geeze.  60 is not too old to sail a Laser. It will keep him young whether he races it or not.

I sailed a Laser from the age of 33 until I was 66 and only switched to an Aero because I wanted something more exciting. I turn 73 this year and hope to sail the Aero for a few more years yet.

And apart from running a few marathons I am not particularly athletic.

60 is the new 30.

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37 minutes ago, tillerman said:

 

Geeze.  60 is not too old to sail a Laser. It will keep him young whether he races it or not.

I sailed a Laser from the age of 33 until I was 66 and only switched to an Aero because I wanted something more exciting. I turn 73 this year and hope to sail the Aero for a few more years yet.

And apart from running a few marathons I am not particularly athletic.

60 is the new 30.

So 73 is the new 36.5?

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I can say 67 and a few drugs is the new 55. However, on these boards you can find a lot of fellas whose eyes were younger than their muscles and balance. 

For the 90% (more? fewer?) who were/are not racers or decades long dinghy sailors, going 10+Kts is going to be more than exciting enough. I'm in it for the nature - for the core strength and for the "something to do" factors. Short of that Hadron H2 I don't care if a boat is cool or name brand - just that it has the right balance. 

If I did have one of those H2 new jobs, tho, I WOULD parade it around and feel like everyone was looking...because they WOULD BE. 

This is really funny and topical b/c my wife thinks I don't age. I try to convince here there is a reality here. It's a standing joke - although yesterday I dug some 4 foot deep postholes and then set some 90lb timbers into them. 

I also went to the doc just for the basic blood checkup - and I got this note from him to show my wife. He's a funny guy. 

1843841819_ScreenShot2021-05-30at7_23_08PM.png

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1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

So 73 is the new 36.5?

some people (like jeremy clarkson) look 15 yrs older than their age. Other people are 90 and still playing tennis. Albeit the last category is 7 sigma.

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53 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

some people (like jeremy clarkson) look 15 yrs older than their age. Other people are 90 and still playing tennis. Albeit the last category is 7 sigma.


I guess the real lesson here is that we are all different, there is a huge range in mental and physical abilities among people of any given age, and it is probably unwise to assume that others of your own age possess the same appetite and ability for sailing options as yourself.

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I seem to a have a huge and differing range of physical and mental abilities every day…

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14 hours ago, tillerman said:


I guess the real lesson here is that we are all different, there is a huge range in mental and physical abilities among people of any given age, and it is probably unwise to assume that others of your own age possess the same appetite and ability for sailing options as yourself.

Well, that's true. The knees aren't what they used to be, and probably the reflexes too although you don't notice that so much. A while ago I was demonstrating balance in a 420 to some high schoolers and of course pulled the damn thing over on top of myself at the dock, because I just could not move my feet to dance across the foredeck to the CB trunk and into the cockpit like I used to. The brain said GO and the legs/knees/feet said Huh? May be out of practice, as much as old age catching up.

But they all got the point. Later that same afternoon, I managed to do fairly well with a demo of rudderless sailing.

For a boat for myself, I care less & less over time about class racing (or racing at all) and more about a boat that is fun with less PITA

FB- Doug

 

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15 hours ago, tillerman said:


I guess the real lesson here is that we are all different, there is a huge range in mental and physical abilities among people of any given age, and it is probably unwise to assume that others of your own age possess the same appetite and ability for sailing options as yourself.

I looked up some articles on older sailing and they said "sure - you can sail right into your mid-50's" - I thought that was funny when many of us are talking about our 70's.

There is nothing at all wrong with my physically except back problems which I don't feel until long after I do things. So the idea of going relatively fast for an hour on a dinghy is appealing to me - as is the motions of launching and retrieving. 

Regular keelboats have zero appeal to me since I've had the Sprint. I suppose if I wanted to hit the big water having 12,000 lbs hanging down makes for some good fun. Both the wife and I are short attention span in this sort of thing - she sails for about 45 minutes and I do about 90. Not because I'm worn out, just because - like anything else - the fun starts waning.

There is a saying among musicians who jam...and even play...that after 90 minutes it doesn't mean much....becomes rote. 

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To me there are few boats that are dinghies capable planing, single handing and carrying 4 on board. You really are into small keel boat territory. By keelboat I'm not talking of having a cabin. Here where I live there are dinghies, yachts  and between them keel boats . Open like a dinghy but with a lump of lead beneath like a yacht.

Some plane easily some don't, I have been sailing a 3/4 ton open 20ft keelboat. It meets  all three your demands. But the planing, just once in 20 years of sailing it.

Even here where we have a wide range of open keel boats, you'd struggle to get that for less than $4000.

As for fitness your past life comes back to bite, I've got a:

damaged big right toe from sailing,

damaged knees from volleyball,

damaged back from baseball,

damaged left elbow from sailing ,

damaged neck from a car crash.

All old injuries that went away, but now regularly give pain.

So there is no chance of hiking out any more, just leaning out can be painful, yet I sail with / against people the same age as me 63 to those over 100 who are much fitter.

I've admitted a true planing dinghy is impossible for me , so I designed and built a small keelboat for single handing. It won't ever plane, but will keep up with the majority dinghies .

 

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