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Bedding New Rub Rails


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removed old wood rails, replacing with new wood rails. couple of questions.

should I fill old screw holes with caulk or epoxy?

builder of the boat said i can use bathroom silicone for bedding. I have scraped off all the old caulk I care to and and going to clean the area good today. any better suggestions for bedding compound?

There are some areas at the deck/hill joint where i can see the fiberglass weave. Fill them with caulk, or epoxy?

 

Thanks in Advance.IMG_0277.thumb.JPG.279617c648b8e44af16909a426bda93b.JPG

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it is better to use sikaflex or similar than silicone imho

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Bathroom silicone has no place on a boat, ever. Unfortunately, it was probably used in the build. Clean off all the old shit, clean with silicone remover, and fill with epoxy.

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3 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Bathroom silicone has no place on a boat, ever. Unfortunately, it was probably used in the build. Clean off all the old shit, clean with silicone remover, and fill with epoxy.

And that’s why I asked. Looking at the stuff that’s in there its not like silicone. It’s actually still tacky. I cleaned it off other than what’s in the seam. 

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Epoxy to fill holes/cover exposed glass

Sikaflex 241 to bed the rubrails.

If the existing stuff is still sticky it might be butyl tape. Often grey

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10 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Epoxy to fill holes/cover exposed glass

Sikaflex 241 to bed the rubrails.

If the existing stuff is still sticky it might be butyl tape. Often grey

If you click through to full image size it looks more like a polysulfide.

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Agreed on the epoxy. I'd also drill out the existing holes just a bit to expose fresh, clean material for the epoxy to bond to.

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It like looks like this piece is covering the hull to deck joint.  Have seen similar in some production boats where goo and teak were used to make a bit of a quick and dirty.  If you are not in a hurry I would take some time with a heat gun and get all the old sealant off then use thickened  epoxy to fill and fair the surface.  Once you are done go back on with the new wood. Tape off the are for the wood with about 1/4 gap.  Use whatever bedding you decide on and trowel with a aggressive tooth trowel.  If at all possible the pieces should be clamped when dry and drilled and fit with fasteners.  You instal with goop after same process.  Relying on fastener for clamping pressure can be a nightmare.  Using a tooth trowel helps but still best of you can clamp it. Silicone has its places plastics windows and ceramics but this is definitely not one of them. Stick with what Z said I've only used 291, LOT in this case not sure what 241 is but sika is a good product.

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33 minutes ago, SASSAFRASS said:

It like looks like this piece is covering the hull to deck joint.  Have seen similar in some production boats where goo and teak were used to make a bit of a quick and dirty.  If you are not in a hurry I would take some time with a heat gun and get all the old sealant off then use thickened  epoxy to fill and fair the surface.  Once you are done go back on with the new wood. Tape off the are for the wood with about 1/4 gap.  Use whatever bedding you decide on and trowel with a aggressive tooth trowel.  If at all possible the pieces should be clamped when dry and drilled and fit with fasteners.  You instal with goop after same process.  Relying on fastener for clamping pressure can be a nightmare.  Using a tooth trowel helps but still best of you can clamp it. Silicone has its places plastics windows and ceramics but this is definitely not one of them. Stick with what Z said I've only used 291, LOT in this case not sure what 241 is but sika is a good product.

I’m a little pressed for time, and it’s a 2500$ boat. I’m probably going to do about 80% of what you outlined here. Clean it good. Patch with epoxy then bed and fasten. Sikaflex sounds like the ticket. Thanks for the detailed instructions. 

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2 hours ago, llama said:

I’m a little pressed for time, and it’s a 2500$ boat. I’m probably going to do about 80% of what you outlined here.

Make it 85% - then you'll be able to sell the boat.

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I've used DSR-5 successfully, but it's not widely available:

https://www.dsr5.com/siliconeremoval.htm

Here's the only place I can find that sells it anymore:

https://tbpconverting.com/product/dsr-5-bond-breaker/

It's not magic, but it does work. You spray it on the thick stuff and it helps make it crumbly when you scrape with a sharp plastic scraper. Then you spray it again and keep scraping. Then you keep repeating until you're down to a thin surface layer. Then you spray it and go at it with a rag. For a reasonably sized area, the whole cycle takes 30-60 minutes but when you're done, you've got a clean surface. 

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3 hours ago, SASSAFRASS said:

If you are in a hurry you could use something like Duraglass.  Not as good as epoxy but will do the job.

Not a super hurry. Just looking to splash soon. You give solid advice.  Luckily the stuff that was on there wasn’t silicone. I cleaned her up good. Used thickened epoxy for holes and exposed glass. I did not take good caulk out of the seams. I left it. I painted the deck and did first coat of Cetol to new rails. I will use a quality marine bedding compound. 
 

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4 hours ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

Do you have a preferred brand?  I gave up looking and would scrape it when I would find it on the boat (previous owner used it for everything). 

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Plus it has little to no adhesive properties.

Rub rail is a perfect spot for low adhesion poly IMO - 291 for example or 4000.

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33 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Plus it has little to no adhesive properties.

Rub rail is a perfect spot for low adhesion poly IMO - 291 for example or 4000.

Got it. 4000 is readily available. 

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On 3/28/2021 at 7:53 PM, llama said:

Got it. 4000 is readily available. 

If you're gonna paint the wood, the 4000 can be painted as well.  That's what we did then we installed a half-round solid steel rail on the outside of the wood.

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Bevel the hole with a countersink to and when everything is snugged down creates a gasket effect on the threads further adding to sealing effect and prevents water intrusion. 

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Sika seems to be the easiest to clean up, just thinner.  Highly recommend a very good primer coat prier to putting wood on.  We always use smiths penetrating epoxy but pre coating makes a much nicer finish and will last alot longer.

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On 3/28/2021 at 11:58 AM, llama said:

Any reason not to use butyl tape?

I use butyl tape for all deck fittings. I don't get why anyone would use anything else. All of the alternatives cited here are a bastard to get off when you need to change the fitting, rub rail or whatever.

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7 hours ago, SASSAFRASS said:

Sika seems to be the easiest to clean up, just thinner.  Highly recommend a very good primer coat prier to putting wood on.  We always use smiths penetrating epoxy but pre coating makes a much nicer finish and will last alot longer.

Out of sikaflex at local shops. Bought a tube of 4200. Im doing 2 coats of cetol before I put the wood on. Next nice day I’m going to wrap this project up. 

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I'm doing the same project right now, trying to restore my old toe rails. They're either teak or black locust, and deteriorated from neglect on the underside and leaked through the screw holes. I get the idea of bedding with an adhesive sealer but I'm worried that I'll want to inspect and re-seal at a later point (or change genoa tracks, etc...). Will butyl tape work in this application? I'll lay in a bead of 5200 on the hull/deck joint first.

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Butyl tape will work in any application requiring a sealer, but is not an adhesive so would need mechanical fasteners. You need to make the tape layer thinish or it can hold the fitting/rail too proud.

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I would qualify that by saying the butyl needs to be sandwiched. An open bead of butyl applied externally to a seam or hole will not last long for the same reason you mentioned: it's not an adhesive and won't hold itself to anything long-term.

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18 minutes ago, Guvacine said:

Butyl tape will work in any application requiring a sealer, but is not an adhesive so would need mechanical fasteners.

It's pretty liberally thru-bolted (every 8" with 1/4" screws), so I wouldn't think more bonding is necessary.

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1 hour ago, Sisu3360 said:

 I get the idea of bedding with an adhesive sealer but I'm worried that I'll want to inspect and re-seal at a later point (or change genoa tracks, etc...).

Hence the use of low adhesive sealer like 291 etc.

Rub rails and the like are different from hardware in that they should be bedded, not simply have the fasteners sealed.

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10 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Hence the use of low adhesive sealer like 291 etc.

Rub rails and the like are different from hardware in that they should be bedded, not simply have the fasteners sealed.

Right, but even with a low adhesive sealer I'll have to repeat the ordeal I'm currently undertaking of sanding sealer out of the wood, and if I'm unlucky dealing with spintering from removal. If I have to, I will, but a non-adhesive bedding is appealing.

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