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Stack Pack (and lazy jacks) for main - anyone have tips for making?


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how about taking something like starboard and making a slug that fits in the groove.  tap it with a machine threads  and then attach the SS strap to the slug ensuring that the screw protruded through the back of the  starboard to make contact with the boom surface to make a friction fit.  of course ensuring that the screw isn't too long, or too short

folks at selden said I should reach out to my local riggers...no cad diagrams.

here is what i was thinking...red slug, blue strap, grey screw black line is end  view of one side of boom

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You're overthinking.

Go to your local sailmaker and buy 8 of these, they cost about 2 USD each. You probably need an A107 or A108

http://www.bainbridgeint.com/Variants.aspx?Item=PRD-900072

Then you will need to drill holes in the sail slide for a self-tapping screw which will bite just enough in the aluminum boom to stop it from sliding.

 

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3 hours ago, t.rex said:

Then you will need to drill holes in the sail slide for a self-tapping screw which will bite just enough in the aluminum boom to stop it from sliding.

Thanks....I never thought about using a mainsail slide.  Drilldown through the center such that the screws puts pressure on the bottom of the groove, but no so much that it drills into the boom.

nice to be able to bounce ideas around...

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I am not a big fan of the idea of using a ss screw tip against an anodized spar for friction. Just going to start corrosion spots.  A composite machine screw (yea they are available or you can make your own by threading say g10 rod) would be better (but I guess might well still damage the anodizing) - dont know how easy it would be to get/make one small enough for this application.

There are all sorts of gentle ways you could create clamping or wedging or stops. Just for instance would be pretty easy to clamp between the edge of the sail slug groove (between two piece of plastic using a machine screw and a threaded hole on the inside piece to pull it up.) 

Also . . . on the design . . . personally I think you could do perfectly fine with a 3 leg lazy jack, dont think 4 legs adds much.

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1 hour ago, estarzinger said:

I am not a big fan of the idea of using a ss screw tip against an anodized spar for friction. Just going to start corrosion spots. 

Also . . . on the design . . . personally I think you could do perfectly fine with a 3 leg lazy jack, dont think 4 legs adds much.

i'll have to pull off one of my reefing tie downs and see how it works.  IE friction or otherwise

I've been going back and forth  E is 14.  which gives me about 3' between legs.  my wife and daughter are shorter than short and offer no help flaking, and given the position of the dodger and bimini   having the extra leg wont hurt me  worst case if it mean two extra low friction rings, 20' of line and an extra boom attachment.

the aftmost leg,  its not really catching a whole lot of sail..  but with the current bimini and dodger set up,  its tough to reach...

 

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On 8/4/2021 at 1:03 PM, estarzinger said:

I am not a big fan of the idea of using a ss screw tip against an anodized spar for friction. Just going to start corrosion spots.  A composite machine screw (yea they are available or you can make your own by threading say g10 rod) would be better (but I guess might well still damage the anodizing) - dont know how easy it would be to get/make one small enough for this application.

My hand-held pop-riveter kit cost about €15, and is very handy for this sort of task.  The rivet are some sort of aluminium, so no corrosion worries

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Just for a friction-stop, nylon screws are readily available at hardware stores and on-line.  Low-friction rings are overkill for a small rig - ordinary SS rings work fine for a fraction of the cost.  

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 7/23/2021 at 1:21 PM, estarzinger said:

yea, if they started slapping or we thought they might, we just tied them out to the shrouds with spare sail ties.  Really a non-issue.

Jud, your boat is relatively small and easy to handle. Just remember that you can easily do things by hand which are a struggle on a 50'er and near impossible on a 75'er.  And there is benefit to putting a perfect flake in the mainsail - that is 'the proper way' for a reason.

 


I came fully to my senses over the past three weeks out sailing and have definitely nixed a stack pack as (1) too expensive, (2) unnecessary on my boat, and (3) in the way of setting a trysail, which I already have and am increasingly seeing the value of (notwithstanding Skip Novak’s worthy opinion in favour of a 4th reef, since his boats are gigantic, and  so bending on a trysail is a big job on them - might as well just put in a final reef instead): https://www.yachtingworld.com/video/skip-novak-storm-sailing-part-3-using-storm-sails-517 )

Re: trysail track, as I look at it, it seems really easy to set up.  No stupid gate to divert/switch lower trysail track on to mainsail track.  Just KISS - a completely separate track offset from the main track.  I think after just moving my halyard winch slightly forward, moving much higher up a halyard exit plate (which I was going to do anyway), and shifting a cleat and my mast winch handle holder, it’ll just be a simple matter of installing track from low down at the deck up to the appropriate height.  
 

Then I need a coupla beefy blocks on the quarters, a solid lash down set up for the boom, and a good 30 kt fall day to experiment with it a bit.

 

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The tracks do bend without much problem - at least the little track I bought did.  You can start more toward the middle , to avoid gooseneck & other hardware as needed, then bend it back closer to the aft of the mast once clear.  I'm not sure though, if I left enough clearance for a putative future Tides Marine Sail Track.  Didn't occur to me until too late.  Oh well,  could always drill out all those rivets and start over.  One unresolved issue is the halyard exit (I've got all external halyards, but might change that.) If one just used the main halyard, or one next to it, the long standing part could slap violently around.  Of course, that is equally true for deep reefs, so really not much of an argument.  

(I saw that video before, and thought that Skip was trying just a little too hard to make it look difficult. He "had" to use the trysail because it was the sail plan for that boat.  But never thought of preparing anything for it ahead of time...)   

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20 hours ago, toddster said:

The tracks do bend without much problem - at least the little track I bought did.  You can start more toward the middle , to avoid gooseneck & other hardware as needed, then bend it back closer to the aft of the mast once clear.  

(I saw that video before, and thought that Skip was trying just a little too hard to make it look difficult. He "had" to use the trysail because it was the sail plan for that boat.  But never thought of preparing anything for it ahead of time...)   

Well, I just don’t see a point of having the trysail track feed into my main track.  As far as I can tell, installing a separate offset track is arguably simpler/more foolproof (the gate to the mainsail track is probably not likely to fail, but it seems like it’s one thing that you don’t want to not work when you’re in a situation where you feel you need a trysail...)

I just came across a bit on Practical Sailor the other day (https://www.practical-sailor.com/sails-rigging-deckgear/diy-trysail-track-retrofitthat mentioned using a separate offset track (which I didn’t know was done - I thought a gate was the way it’s done) — so I took a look at my lower mast (the pic I posted above), and realized that it’s a way easier way to install a trysail, than trying to mesh two tracks together.

Re: Skip Novak article/vid, I think his point about how much work it is to rig a trysail on a boat that big is well made: no way would I want to do it!  And he says by the time you’ve done it, on that big beast of a boat, you might be “too late”, or might just as well have put in the 4th reef by then.  On my boat, it’ll be *relatively* easy to hoist a trysail...provided you do it before it’s over 30 kts, that is.......... :-)

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  • 4 weeks later...

Here we go...

I bought a 600' roll of Samson 1/8" amsteel dyneema ($157), 12 tylaska low friction rings($87), 4 cheek blocks($56), 4 small cleats($10), 16 eye straps($21), and a ronstan d-splicer fid kit($46) enough material to build two pairs of 4 leg lazy jacks,. $212 each after shipping/taxes

took 2 hours to get 1/2 of one rig is done, only an hour for the second half (had to do something at work)

still need to buy rivets for the eyestraps and cheek blocks though.

hopefully with get to mount up both systems next weekend.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Marcjsmith said:

quick question. 

going to hang the lazy jacks this weekend.   the small cleats on either side of the mast.  should I just drill and tap the mast, and tefgel the screw. 

or should use an aluminum rivnut, and then SS screw with tefgel?

For a low-load application like this with the fasteners in shear, I'd opt for the smallest holes in the mast I could get away with: either drilled and tapped for ss screws or just pop riveted with aluminum rivets.

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2 minutes ago, IStream said:

For a low-load application like this with the fasteners in shear, I'd opt for the smallest holes in the mast I could get away with: either drilled and tapped for ss screws or just pop riveted with aluminum rivets.

i'm going rivet for everything else.  but wasn't able to locate a rivet long enough grip to go through the body of the cleat. Ive got two other places to check on my way to the boat tomorrow.  figured  I might has well have other options ready just in case.

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Install went smooth on both boats.  No surprises used rivets everywhere, have not mounted the cleats yet,  have enough at the mast so I don’t think I’ll need them.  

I brought the all lines aft of the spreaders.  I think though I might end up taking the tension line forward of the spreaders to help reduce any chance  of twisting or tangling .  We’ll see how it plays out for now 

They worked pretty well.   I understand why folks like them.   I’m sure that an integrated cover will be in my future.  It will give me another project for my new sewing machine. 

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On 9/17/2021 at 11:33 PM, IStream said:

or just pop riveted with aluminum rivets.

I have had very little success with aluminium rivets in a salt water environment. Short life span , and fail with little warning.

So many  alloys in close proximity- mast alloy , rivet body ( thin walled), and rivet mandrel. Nasty.

Best solution is to Drill  and tap for metal threads , assuming it’s bigger than a dinghy mast.

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  • 2 months later...

Stack pack question.  Attaching pack to boom.  Witha loose footed main, easy enough to drop some slugs in the slot normally reserved for the bolt rope in the foot.  Or use some webbing and wrap the webbing around the boom

I don’t have a loose foot, my main foot has a bolt rope.

Could I remove the foot of the main from the boom and then reinstall the stacpack cover under the bolt rope.  Provided of course that there is enough space in the  groove for the bolt rope, sail and sunbrella for the cover.

 

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Update on my lazy jacks/stack pack project (since I started this thread :-) ).  I’d forgotten all about it.

No stack pack - went with simple lazy jacks per the advice from some pretty seasoned offshore sailors.  I like it - simple, no “excess” shit hanging off the boom.  Plus, stack pack cost was too high.  Finally, easier to deal with trysail without stack pack.  
 

I may change my tune on them in years to come if I get old and lazy, or if I ever got a bigger boat (and hence bigger sail cover - but even estarzinger, with a 47’er didn’t have one) - but for now, cost was the over-riding original consideration in not getting a stack pack made —since I’d just spent $4k on a new mainsail (and I have neither the time or skills or machine to make a stack pack).  And, not going with one, I came to see/appreciate the benefits of not having one, as counselled by others originally.

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4 hours ago, Marcjsmith said:

Stack pack question.  Attaching pack to boom.  Witha loose footed main, easy enough to drop some slugs in the slot normally reserved for the bolt rope in the foot.  Or use some webbing and wrap the webbing around the boom

I don’t have a loose foot, my main foot has a bolt rope.

Could I remove the foot of the main from the boom and then reinstall the stacpack cover under the bolt rope.  Provided of course that there is enough space in the  groove for the bolt rope, sail and sunbrella for the cover.

 

Your last suggestion, removing the boltrope from the main and adding a boltrope to the base of the stackpack, is a common solution. If there is enough space you could use a Teflon/slot tape in the base of your stack pack and wrap this around the boltrope in your mainsail foot as you slide them both in together. This is reliant on your existing boltrope being thin enough to accommodate the extra width of the slot tape.

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4 hours ago, Marcjsmith said:

... I don’t have a loose foot, my main foot has a bolt rope.

Could I remove the foot of the main from the boom and then reinstall the stacpack cover under the bolt rope.  Provided of course that there is enough space in the  groove for the bolt rope, sail and sunbrella for the cover.

 

The lazy bag is usually constructed in two halves and then joined together with a 10 cm (4") dacron tape with a boltrope in the middle.

If the mainsail already has a boltrope, then the lazy bag can be constructed by sewing each half to the port and starboard side of the tape. The dacron goes on the outside to help prevent chafing of the acrilan. Remember to place openings for reefing and outhaul.

Usually the lazy bag is fitted to the boom by hoisting the mainsail, then sliding the dacron tape between the mainsail boltrope and the internal track on the boom.

Alternatively the mainsail and lazy bag can be slid into the groove together, although this adds weight and complexity to the process. You will probably need to hoist the mainsail anyway to 'even up' side-to-side and fore and aft.

Note this dacron tape trick can also be used for sunshades with zippers.B)

 

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28 minutes ago, t.rex said:

Note this dacron tape trick can also be used for sunshades with zippers.B)

You can also add these zippers into to the base of your stackpack or get really funky and build shade panels directly into the stackpack with integral storage pockets for when not in use... the possibilities are endless. 

IMHO trying to slide the stackpack tape into the boom track with the mainsail boltrope already in the track is going to be an adventure into frustration. We'd always remove the foot of the sail from the track and then insert the two together. On a small enough boat you can roll the mainsail from the head down and handle it 'whole', for larger sails you'd need to lay it out on the side deck and wrestle the foot along the track from whichever end you have the feeder section. 

With a loose footed main I would agree about hoisting the mainsail first - get the thing out of the way.

Either way, treat yourself by running a rag or cloth down the track first to clean it out and have a can of PTFE or McLube handy to help things along. 

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Thanks for the confirmations folks.

I was originally thinking of just using sunbrella(existing sail cover)  or maybe textaline (for drainage) under the bolt rope.  but dacron is a great idea abrasion resistance and its slippery so sliding it all on should be far easier.

textaline/phifertex  should i worry about drainage/ventilation.  I'm not in the PNW or tropics.

 

next time I'm at the boat I'll have to check the gap on the bolt rope/foot...

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Usually I'd insert a few panels of mesh into the base of the stack pack just to either side of the boltrope to help with drainage after serious downpours. But if you're on the boat regularly and will be able to drain any water and perhaps open the cover to let it breath for a few hours then it shouldn't be an issue. 

'Regular' Sunbrella (now referred to as Sunbrella New) does have some level of breathability but it's not great. The Sunbrella Plus with the PU coating on the inside is more waterproof but not at all breathable and more likely to end up with moisture accumulation and mildew issues if left damp. If you're somewhere that gets temps up into the 90s/100s then be extra careful with any Sunbrella Plus as the PU coating can soften and get dirt/dust trapped in it which then in turn attracts moisture and gets a mildew coating that is near impossible to remove. 

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Given the photo of you boom shows a track on either side, an alternative might be to have two separate covers not joined at the bottom but with sail slides that went into the relevant boom side track - it solves the drainage issue, give a little more space for the sail, though would make cover removal more difficult as it would mean removing the lazy jacks.

An equivalent alternative would be to put webbing  straps sewn to the cover bottom through sail slides in the same location, clipping back to the cover or together under the boom - that would the cover easily removable leaving the slides fixed.

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Bilge,   The track is pretty wide.  I though of using two piece slides that Selden sells for lazy jacks, but ended up going with an eye strap.  Plus the slides from selden were prohibitively pricy.

if I added a few more eye straps on th boom to spread the loads, I could do the webbing back to the cover  using a nylon webbing adjuster buckle and make it  removable without having to remove the sail.

 Since I have Brummell eyes on the lazy jacks, I could run the batten on the top of the pack through the eye or put a carabiner style clip on the jack to clip to the webbing.  This allows the jacks to be removed from the cover and stay on the mast.

nzk, the existing sail cover which I’d be modifying is old school sunbrella, not the new stuff with the rubberized coating.

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Sorry for the cross posting, but I would like to keep these thoughts together and this topic has better legs.
I’m curious to get opinions on the merits of a sail pack / stack pack whatever you like to call them for mainsail handling. Largish mainsail, getting it flaked boom is a major piece of work and a challenge when short/single handed, so I’m wondering if having a bag on the main would make the whole thing easier, and also provide a place for furled main to stow.  The downside is the windage of that bag once sailing, so thinking of a design that could easily be snugged against the boom out of the way, with lazy jacks led forward and stowed on the mast.

Thoughts or experiences?

To reduce the windage it's relatively easy to install or retrofit a lazy bag with 3-4 clic-clacs (those plastic clips you see everywhere on a backpack) on each side.

The trick is to sew the female clic-clac on a short webbing loop to the polyester tape holding the bolt-rope on the outside, and the male part on a short length of webbing (70 cm forward to 30 cm aft)  to the same polyester tape on the inside of the lazy bag. Sewing 6 layers of acrilan, 2 layers of polyester and 3 x 2 layers of webbing in one go can be ... well ... entertaining.

With the sail set, fold the mast covering section back into the lazy bag, lower the lazy jacks inside the lazy bag and pull them forward to the mast. Roll up the lazy bag around its batten and fix with the clic-clacs. Tighten as necessary.

 

Hi Jud,

As far as pricing goes; up to early summer, we had this quote policy for lazy bags.

- measure from the back of the mast to the end of the boom.

- 100 euro per meter.

- Lazy jacks are not included and we try not to get involved with installing them. Plenty of riggers around going up wobbly masts.

- If the client asked or we knew that the client raced, then we'll throw in the clic-clacs (nobody ever uses them).

- Sun shades are not included and neither are 'predisposed' zippers.

Halfway through spring, our main production period, the manager of the loft sits me down and says "For what I pay for acrilan and what I pay you to make these, I am losing money on the rent, lights ..."

- 150 euro per meter.

-------

I have a 'fun' story about NZK 's comment on adding sun shades to the lazy bag. He's right, it can be done.

The client (beneteau 47?) had a factory lazy bag with curved zippered pockets to hold zippered-on sun shades (for washing?).

The lazy bag was getting old, various tears including along the sun shade zipper stitching as well as sunburn on the top zipper.

The client ordered a new one but said the sun shades were fine.

I spent a couple of days cursing and swearing getting on those curved pockets and reinforcing the lazy bag along the sun shade zipper.

Told the loft manager that I would never do one again and if there was a next time, it would cost him more for the sun shade 'garages' than for the lazy bag.

Four days after installation, the client called and complained the dark blue lazy bag didn't match the color of the dark blue sun shades. You can't win ... you can't win ...

 

But it does bring up a point that I want to make:

- Lazy jacks pull the lazy bag upward and slightly inboard.

- Sun shades, if attached to the body of the lazy bag pull the lazy bag outboard and downward. Even more if they're flapping in the breeze.

- Acrilan is not the right material for these kinds of loads.

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On 11/25/2021 at 12:24 AM, Bilge Boy said:

Given the photo of you boom shows a track on either side, an alternative might be to have two separate covers not joined at the bottom but with sail slides that went into the relevant boom side track - it solves the drainage issue, give a little more space for the sail, though would make cover removal more difficult as it would mean removing the lazy jacks.

An equivalent alternative would be to put webbing  straps sewn to the cover bottom through sail slides in the same location, clipping back to the cover or together under the boom - that would the cover easily removable leaving the slides fixed.

On Hunters, they have a track on each side of the boom, Stack Packs are two sided with a bolt rope that slides into those tracks.  Nice part is not having to remove the main to install the Stack Pack.  (I’m a sail maker, and have installed a lot of Stack Packs)

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2 hours ago, View from the back said:

On Hunters, they have a track on each side of the boom, Stack Packs are two sided with a bolt rope that slides into those tracks.  Nice part is not having to remove the main to install the Stack Pack.  (I’m a sail maker, and have installed a lot of Stack Packs)

to be able to use the track, I’d have to drill out the rivets and remove the end cap on the boom.  Which makes removing the main easy....

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  • 3 weeks later...

i'm sure I could hook up with Bacons to get a couple full length (14-16' battens)  or do I go to Mcmaster car or some other supplier and get glass tubes or glass rods with a connector.  since shipping a 16' section would be very cost prohibitive...

could a 1" dia tube with 1/8" wall  or go with a 1" solid rod?

thoughts

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I checked Bacon's the last time I was in Naptown. I didn't talk to anyone, just casually looked around in the back. I am thinking a couple retired roached main batten off a big multihull would be about right...but the longest round batten I found there was not even 12 feet long...I need about 12-13 for my stack pack. Can you still buy schedule 80 PVC pipe? That might be stiff enough.

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3 hours ago, Hike, Bitches! said:

I checked Bacon's the last time I was in Naptown. I didn't talk to anyone, just casually looked around in the back. I am thinking a couple retired roached main batten off a big multihull would be about right...but the longest round batten I found there was not even 12 feet long...I need about 12-13 for my stack pack. Can you still buy schedule 80 PVC pipe? That might be stiff enough.

It's pretty bulky, though. I bought some 9' long 3/8" fiberglass rod and cut it into 6' lengths, glued one end of half of them into stainless tubing I had lying around, and fitted them together for a nice wide canopy over the cockpit. The short lengths stow up against the toerail up on the foredeck so they are out of the way when I'm not using them. Easy enough to glue two short lengths in a joining piece to make up the length you need.

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Per Sailrite: 3/4" schedule 40 PVC works fine for my 12-footer, supported at 2,6, and 10 feet.  I bought 20-foot pieces at the irrigation supply place, so there wouldn't be any seams.  

Re cockpit canopies:  Haven't made one yet, but collapsible tent poles seem to be easily obtained and inexpensive in fiberglass or aluminum.  Have these been found to be inadequate?  e.g. 

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13 hours ago, Hike, Bitches! said:

I checked Bacon's the last time I was in Naptown. I didn't talk to anyone, just casually looked around in the back. I am thinking a couple retired roached main batten off a big multihull would be about right...but the longest round batten I found there was not even 12 feet long...I need about 12-13 for my stack pack. Can you still buy schedule 80 PVC pipe? That might be stiff enough.

I emailed robb at bacons...

Hi Marc, we use round batten stock in our stack pack (lazy bags) and we have plenty available, sold by the foot at $3.50/ft.  The round battens are a better choice because they are stiffer in all dimensions and will allow you to sew a smaller pocket.  We also have new flat batten material in stock and we sell used battens at $1.00/ft, although the used batten choice is hit and miss.  Since you will be picking up in person it would be better to keep them one-piece rather than join two together.

Robb
Bacon Sails
(410) 263-4880

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Hi Marc, Hi HB,

The batten configuration for a lazy bag is a choice that I have to continually optimize/compromise. More than anything else, it's a cost/benefit compromise.

A lazy bag has a slight concave curve (downwards from headboard to clew) to fit the volume of the mainsail, so a large rigid batten (read hollow) is not desirable. Neither is a noodle because it won't support the weight from one attachment point to the next.

The industry standard for lazy bags (and sails) are pultruded fiberglass solid rods. They come in a standard length of 6 meters with various diameters. Mostly I use 10mm diameter for boats up to 9m (30' with 3 lazy jacks), 12mm for boats up to 13m (40' with 4 lazy jacks), and 14mm for boats up to 17m (50' with 4 lazy jacks). Bigger boats often have specialized booms requiring a specialized cover.

When I can, I prefer to use continuous lengths. When this is not possible, then I cut the batten to the mid point between attachment points. This 'should be' where the least stress occurs.

To join the batten,  I use a stainless steel tube about 30 to 40 cm long with an inside diameter equal to or slightly greater than the outside diameter of the fiberglass rod. Don't want to sand fiberglass to make these fuckers fit! To get them aligned, I wrap spinnaker tape (adhesive polyester cloth) around the fiberglass till it's a tight fit. Once pushed together inside the stainless tube, then more spinnaker tape lengthwise to hold them together. Remember there is little to none compression or tension on the batten once inside the lazy bag.

A word to the wise. You can get these longer lengths of rods shipped to you because the sellers know how to roll them up tight enough, then tape them up for shipping. Either you know how to unroll them, or do it in the presence of someone who can call emergency. 

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2 hours ago, t.rex said:

Hi Marc, Hi HB,

A word to the wise. You can get these longer lengths of rods shipped to you because the sellers know how to roll them up tight enough, then tape them up for shipping. Either you know how to unroll them, or do it in the presence of someone who can call emergency. 

I had not thought about that until you mentioned it. Kinda the same way you roll up a Harken carbo headfoil or similar for storage. For the Farr 30, we rolled the backup and stored it with the spare trailer tire.

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Thanks for th info trex

anither question.  I’m planning on using some Dacron bolt rope tape for the bottom section of the pack.  Using the bolt rope on the main sail to hold it in place.   I was thinking about sewing the cover to the bolt rope tape.  Down side is that if I ever need to remove it,  I’m taking the main off the boom.

my current cover uses the twist-lock fasteners for closure.  So I start thinking.... could use the existing twist-locks to attach the cover to the bolt rope tape...

benefit- no sewing needed for the bottom half the pack.  

downside is that adding twistys to the tape would likely take longer than running it through the machine.

benefit - if I ever need to remove the sides of the pack for maintenance  I don’t need to remove the main,

downside is that I’ve got an exposed mainsail while I work on the cover. And if it’s going be down for an extended period of time.  Then I need to take the main off the boom and stow

thoughts....

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Sorry guys, I'm here visting my daughter in Barcelona trying to figure out how to attach cellphone photos.

This is the Sagrada Familia where they have just completed the 'Torre de la Virgin Maria'. So the white light you see just under the crane is a 3 dimensional 12 pointed star with a 7.5 meter diameter weighing 5.5 tons on a tower 138 meters tall. It's been illuminated just in time for xmas.

20211220_172245.jpg

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Hi Marc,

Your concerns and strategies are quite reasonable for someone who sees the mainsail as the 'core' with the sailcover/lazy bag, lazy jacks and sun shades as separate accessories.

The evolution of the lazy bag is geared to making mainsail storage easier, not necessarily better. Easier is not a bad thing, you are more likely to use it. The best protection is to remove your sails after every use and store them in a cool, dry, dark place.

As the lazy bag has evolved, so have the mainsail, sailcover and sun shades.

-Sun shades used to be a big flat sheet draped over the sailcover. Needs to be removed completely and stored everytime the boat moves. They've become halves which can be unzipped and stored or rolled up against the boom.

-Sailcover needs to be removed, stored below deck, retrieved and fitted everytime the boat sails. A lazy bag needs only be unzipped and zipped closed. Does anybody realize how rich I'd be if I could invent a telecommanded electric zipper?

The mainsail moves off center stage becoming loose footed. This allows a certain independence for removing parts for maintenance. Usually when the mainsail comes off for the winter, it never leaves the zipped closed lazy bag.

So the big picture these days is a loose footed mainsail, a lazy bag with a boltrope, and sun shades zippered to a dacron tape which fits between the lazy bag boltrope and the groove in the boom.

In your case, if the boltrope in the mainsail foot is not stitched directly along the length of the dacron tape, then it is possible to 'fish out' the line. That same line can be used in the lazy bag boltrope. Even if it is a couple of feet shorter than the foot length of the mainsail, that's ok, you need to leave openings for the reefs.Bow insidep20210412_172145.thumb.jpg.c0dac636897d70ae39e6bf65e35d4fef.jpg

20210412_172221.jpg

20210412_171932.jpg

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Trex.  Thanks.  Yeah the  bolt rope is stitched in pretty tight.  Have really given any thought to removing the bolt rope and making the main a loose foot  

ive got all my measurements I’m going diagram it all up tomorrow   I’ll try to post pics before I head out of town  

going to bacons on wed for the battens 

 

enjoy barcelona.  I was there on a high school trip in the 80s.  It was beautiful then, I’m sure as it gets closer too being done it gets more beautiful..

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Hi Marc,

The design process is mostly adapting a flat material to making a complex 3D shape. Defining the shape and measuring it is the hard part.

If you look at mainsail bow on, you will notice

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I just finished making a new dodger.    I figure the pack has to be easier.  but yeah  you've got a bit of a belly closer to the mast and it flattens the further you move aft.  so a bit of a "cone shape"  so even though the stacked main is only 2' above the top of the boom.  I have to add some extra material to allow the belly

another question.  how important is it to be able to stow the pack.  IE roll it up and snug it up against the boom while sailing.  I see most folks do not do this.   I'm aware that  by leaving it it place  it would marginally affect the sail and airflow.  and depending on how tight I have the lazyjacks,  could flap and flutter in a breeze.

since I built the lazy jacks  I installed stainless loops on the boom for the eyes on the jacks.  right now they are recessed a bit in the track along the side of the boom I figure I could utilize them to allow me to stow the pack if I desired.  stitch some webbing or bungee cord onto the inside and then add a small hook or clip to it

it look like you have some backpack buckles  on the front to close it up,  i was thinking about reusing the existing zipper from the main sail cover I'm cutting up.  or the twist lock fasteners from the bottom.

 

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Too much time.

Hi Marc,

The design process is mostly adapting a flat material to making a complex 3D shape. Defining the shape and measuring it is the hard part.

If you look at the flaked mainsail bow on, you will notice that it has a teardrop shape beginning immediately aft of the mast with the maximum circumference there also. This is especially true if the lazy jacks are holding up the flakes.

The teardrop shape tapers toward the stern. Whereas at the front of the mast, the shape disappears to a straight line.

So I define a point 'phi' as the reference on the cloth for all measurements. This point phi corresponds to the intersection of the top of the boom section and the back of the mast section. So measurments on the boat can be reduced to the following:

A - Height of sail, measured from phi to the headboard or highest car. 

B - Circumference of sail at mast, measured from phi around the circumference, over the headboard/car continuing around the circumference to phi.

C - Circumference of sail at mid-boom, measured from the groove aound the circumference to the groove at mid-boom.

D - Circumference of sail at clew patch, measured from the groove around the largest circumferenze of the clew patch to groove. Attention to the reef patch which may increase the circumference.

E - Boom length, measured from phi to start of boomcap. Not to be confused with with the 'E' of rated mainsail foot length.

F - Maximum circumference of mast, measured from mast-track around the largest circumference, including halyards, cleats, stoppers, winches, and spinnaker cars permanently attached from phi to A, to the mast-track. If there is a big difference from the minimum, note how far up from phi.

R0 R1 R2  - Distance from boomcap to front of 'eased' clew car, reef 1 tensioned, reef 2 tensioned.

H - Headboard, measured from back of mast section to back of headboard (rarely needed).

So posts these measures and the WLYDO will have a contest for bragging rights.

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not going to be able to get some of the numbers, since the main is already off the  boom.    but  I have the existing cover which fits very well,  so i should be able to extrapolate some numbers from that, keeping in mind that I need to subtract some distance since the current cover is designed to go completely around the boom.

thankfully all my winches and cleats are below the gooseneck so that saves some complex figures.

Thanks for thinking this through with me and letting me bounce ideas off you

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Bad science trying to extrapolate circumferences for a lazy bag from a sail cover. In a lazy bag the flakes are folded up, whereas in a sailbag the flakes are folded down over the boom.

Post your A , E , F measurements and we can guesstimate the circumferences from other similar sized boats.

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Sail.   Old sail.  No real plan on replacing anytime soon.   Worst case. If I do end with a new sail. All I’m out is time and some old sunbrella

ive been binge watching sailrite s videos.   Its how I got through my dodger build 

rex.   

A 24”

e 14’ 10”

f is  just a guess at my mast cross section is 10” x5”  based on some seldom numbers.  which calculates out to about 24”  I’m 800 miles away from the boat so no real rush on anything right now  

 

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On 4/1/2021 at 8:41 PM, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Rex - Brilliant !  Thanks for all the details.

My wife sews very well, but isn’t in the sailing world/marine industry (sewing just a serious hobby, not work) so sometimes doesn’t always catch certain design/construction features that someone who is would intuitively know.  But I can see how between your detailed description/drawing and instructions elsewhere, we could figure it out.

Can definitely see how having a lazy bag you wouldn’t want to go back to a sail cover, especially if using the boat very frequently - i.e., live aboard cruising for extended periods.

I see you have the “control” end of your lazy jacks at the mast, whereas Cisco (above) does his differently, at the boom - to avoid mast slapping of the control line/halyard. Per one of iStream’s posts above, he said uses 3mm Dyneema (at mast lazy jacks halyard/control line), which is light enough not to slap in the wind, he says.  (He has a lazy bag/sail pack, whereas Cisco doesn’t - perhaps that’s the key difference for where the control line would/could go? Or maybe doesn’t matter, if you use a light line, like iStream.)

 My wife sews very well, too. We sew a sail together. It actually came out quite well. We actually had to spend lots of time because of a bunch of problems we faced. The best thing I noticed in our final result is that the cover stitch looked perfect. My wife used the simple coverstitch machine, it did its work perfectly. It is really important to do stitches perfectly. It's a concern for safety. 

Talking about the weight of the sail. It is true that it requires yards and yards of fabric. Finally, it turns out heavy. My wife really needed help to deal with it.  

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  • 2 weeks later...

Here is the design of the Elan31 lazy bag pictured above.

Should be close enough to your dimensions to get an idea for materials and volume/shape.

 

 

LazyElan31.jpeg

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Φ

In the upper right hand column are the measurements taken on the boat.

On the left side of the measurement box are the dimensions of the new lazy bag. I remember that the mainsail was old, tired dacron so I added a bit of volume aft in case the owner bought a new sail.

To get the volume that I want in a teardrop shape, I use darts. Sewn darts add volume at a specific place by shortening the outside edge: think woman's dress. They also tend to pull cloth into the bag which must be allowed for.

To locate these darts, point phi must be located on the cloth:

- Roll out a meter or so of acrilan on the table. If the cloth has a coating then unroll with the coated side up. We want to draw the lines on the inside.

- Draw a good square line to the edge of the cloth at the end.

- Draw 2 parallel lines 5 and 10 cm to the edge about a meter long. These are for the double fold hem along the foot. The inside line is the finished edge. Phi is along that line/edge.

- Nominally phi is back from the end of the cloth F / 2  + double fold hem width, but the darts pull in some cloth so we have estimate this.

- From the square end line, measure into the cloth F / 2 (=30) + double fold hem width (=10) + dart pull (=10) ...   30 + 10 + 10 = 50

- Phi is located 50 cm into the cloth from the end line along the finished edge. Mark it such that you can find it again even after sewing the double fold hem.

- A construction point is located height A (=80) above the finished edge of the foot and 50 cm in from the end line.

- With a straight stick between phi and the construction point, measure up 20 and 40 cm, mark each intersection and draw lines forward parallel to the finished edge foot.

- On the lower dart line measure 40 cm forward of the intersection then down 15 cm. Draw a line from the intersection to that point then finish with a parallel to the foot. This is done to unload the dart pull at the finished edge of the front hem.

- On the upper dart line measure 40 cm forward of the intersection then up 15 cm. Draw a line from the intersection to that point then finish with a parallel to the foot.

- From phi make some tick marks 30, 35 and 40 forward to the finished edge. These will serve to define the ends of the front hem.

- From the construction point at height A make some tick marks 30, 35 and 40 cm forward. Don't bother to draw the front hem, the darts pull it all out of shape.

 

So that's how I get from a straight line hem at the front of the mast to a much fuller teardrop shape at the mainsail luff. More to come.

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I just had a " I see what you did there. " moment with myself !  It probably has to do with zealous material savings or a shortish piece of material. We'll get there.

The acrilan in the lazy bag is divided in 4 distinct pieces: port structure, port zipper, starboard zipper and starboard structure. If you need to add seams to make these pieces then either you are at another level or you don't have enough material.

To finish the (stb in the design above) structure, roll out the acrilan and mark the designed E measured from phi. Note the designed E is slightly longer than the measured E because sewing tends to bunch up the cloth. Add a couple of tick marks beyond E at 5 and 10 cm for the double fold hem at the stern.

Continue the lines for the double fold hem along the foot to just past E.

At phi, mark the offset from the finished edge for circumference B. Normally it is A, but I see that I constructed it at 75, a little bit smaller.

At mid-boom and E the offsets are close to standard, 42½ & 30 compared to 45 & 30 above the finished edge.

With your lengthy design batten draw a smooth curve through these offset points, slightly parabolic, more hollow forward and less hollow aft. Note this is a cut-to edge.

Draw a straight line from your offset point above phi forward parallel to the foot.

Draw the three vertical lines at the stern which define the stern double folded hem.

Mark the batten pocket end at 20 cm from the finished edge of the stern, the stern webbing attach point at 30 cm from the batten, the middle webbing attachment at 140 cm from the stern webbing, and so on till you have finally marked the front end of the batten pocket approximately 20 cm from the back of the mast.

Don't cut anything yet. Check all your measurements.

The length of the structure piece: front double hem width (=10) + dart length (=40) + boom length (=380) +  stern double hem width (=10) ... 10 + 40 + 380 + 10 = 440 cm.

The zipper pieces need to be equally long (440 cm). They are semi-triangular pieces 25 cm wide at the front and 15 cm wide at the stern. These are cut-to edges, a little bit narrower than the standard 30 cm to 20 cm.

The zipper pieces need lines for a double fold hem at the stern and a line at 5 cm parallel to a long edge to make a single fold hem 2½ cm wide to hide the zipper from the sun. The hard part is visualizing which side to draw the lines on, to not have 2 port zipper pieces!

--------------------

So why did I make slightly undersized pieces ?

If your acrilan does have a coating then you will have to 'mirror' your structure pieces around a horizontal axis at the stern of the bag. This leaves a lens with which to design the port and starboard zipper pieces. This consumes about 9 meters of cloth.

If your acrilan does not have a coating and your structure pieces are small enough then you can rotate one  on a vertical axis creating a trapezoid and you only have to remember to transfer the design to the underside of the new piece. If the total height of the four pieces is less than the width of the cloth, 152 cm, then you only consume 4½ meters of cloth.

In this lazy bag the stacked height of the four pieces would be  10 +75 + 30 +10 + 25 + 15 = 165; too tall. But if you had a piece of acrilan  5 to 6 meters laying around, then moving the pieces toward the ends to flatten the trapezoid, shrinking one or two of the design dimensions slightly ...

I see what you did there.

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using your diagram and my guestimates  here's what i would have to cut out from the current mainsail cover to make it work,  and even then it would have required a bunch of seam ripping as well.  hardly worth the effort.   I went ahead and ordered new material. it was only 150 bucks.  this way I don't completely fuck myself over and ruin a perfectly good cover.

 

IMG_2575.jpg

IMG_2576.jpg

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Wise decision.

 

Looking at your dimensions, two things come to mind:

- your mast with a section of 10" x 5"  (25cm x 12 cm) is a telephone pole. Given just a few external halyards near phi, your F will be more than 24" (61 cm)

- your total cars height A of 24" (61 cm) is quite low. You must have white plastic slug slides along the luff. Are you considering something like a 'battcar' system for the future ?

 

And the 64$ question: how much acrilan did you order ?

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the top of the sail cover, that wraps round the mast is a bit less than 24" in circumference  which covers all the necessary halyards

yes white slugs.  no future plans for a track system

I ordered 6 yards  60" wide.  my E is 14.1' 

probably could have gotten by with 48" wide,  but it was only about 10 bucks extra for the 60"  same shipping price.

I should have enough material left over to rebuild one complete side if I totally fuck up...  but It also gives me enough material to make the sleeves for the battens, and enough material for seam allowances and zipper covers as well..

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On 12/21/2021 at 2:37 PM, t.rex said:

E - Boom length, measured from phi to start of boomcap. Not to be confused with with the 'E' of rated mainsail foot length.

 

On 12/23/2021 at 11:51 PM, Marcjsmith said:

A 24”

e 14’ 10”

f is  just a guess at my mast cross section is 10” x5”  based on some seldom numbers.  which calculates out to about 24” 

 

59 minutes ago, Marcjsmith said:

the top of the sail cover, that wraps round the mast is a bit less than 24" in circumference  which covers all the necessary halyards

I ordered 6 yards  60" wide.  my E is 14.1' 

Measure twice, cut once.

So, you're working in inches, feet and inches, yards, and decimal feet. You got caught out on the E measurement. Let's try a bit of cooperation and work in centimeters. It's not hard; 2½ cm = 1 in, 5 cm = 2 in, 10 cm = 4 in, 15 cm = 6 in, 100 cm = 39 3/8 in. We're not building a Steinway, just a lazy bag.

In the measurement box let's start assigning some of the measurements we know. First the right hand column; measurements taken on the boat.

- number of lazy jack attachment points = 4 (from the picture)

- total cars height A = 61

- circumferences B, C, D = not measured

- boom length E = 452

- mast circumference F = 61

- clew and reef from boomcap R0 R1 = not measured

To get an idea of the material consumption we need to test the design values for length and circumference.

- set height A to 65 (rounded up to nominal value)

- set boom length E to 455 (rounded up to nominal value)

- set mast circumference F to 70 (nominal value because we want a slight overlap)

- set circumference B to 190 (((65+30) x 2)  height A + zipper piece standard value. This is tight compared to other lazy bags)

- set circumference D to 100 (((30+20) x 2) structure + zipper piece standard values)

- length of pieces = 10 + 45 + 455 + 10 = 520

- stacked height of pieces = 10 + 65 + 30 + 10 + 30 + 20 =  165  => too tall  for a cloth width of 152

You've underestimated the material consumption, and now need to look at ways to trim it without creating zipper 'tight spots'.

 

In my best LB15 voice, "So cupcake, just how good are you at cutting out paper dolls, bwahahaha"

 

 

 

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reef 1, 2, 3   from endcap taken from a previous measurement. unlrelated to stack pack  38.5 65.9 96.1

foot from end cap when fully tension  25cm est based on pics

knowing where the mast/boom/gooseneck is located on my current mainsail cover  does that help any with figuring out the  B.  yeah its still a guess though...

Fuck I should just go ahead and schlep the sail back to the boat.

 

 

 

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R0 = 25 tensioned , R0 ≈ 35 eased

R1 = 39 tensioned

R2 = 66 tensioned

R3 = 96 tensioned

Good to know. That's a lot of patches out there at circumference D.

I have sometimes used a scaled drawing 1:10 to cut out 'paper dolls' of the 4 pieces of acrilan needed, then fit them to a 'virtual' scaled roll of cloth.

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I have been caught out in this predicament of underestimation more times than I care to admit. Usually it is a combination of not measuring with the sail and forcing myself to work with the materials at hand. There are several solutions:

- Order the right amount of material and construct by-the-numbers.. This is by far the easiest solution with the best outcome. In your case, you need to order 520+520 = 1040 ... let's call it 10½ meters. There is enough material to 'flesh out' the lazy bag if the circumferences dictate. Remember that your mainsail is not a small one, we're not talking about a San Juan 24 without reefs. In the lens between the two structure pieces there is material for the zipper pieces, batten pockets and maybe winch covers. Any lazy bag with a height A greater than 75 has to use this method.

- Trim down the zipper pieces 5 cm at each end and juggle the paper dolls until it fits, then pray. This is pretty much the solution for the Elan 31 which worked fine. In another case, same geometry, with a newly arrived 'unmeasured' mainsail, it was so tight that I couldn't get the zipper to close !  I had to undo the double folded hem along the foot and reinforce with dacron tape. You could see the machine-gun stitch holes in the fabric for about a year.

- With the material you have, make the structure pieces. The zipper pieces can be seamed together with strips cut across a length of cloth (along the weft). This means you only need to order 2 more meters of cloth. The downside is you have to seam together these pieces and sew the zippers across seams (hoping they line up).

In any case, a good measuring of the circumferences is going to help.

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The easiest method to measure circumference for the lazy bag is to flake the main on the boom with smallish flakes. Pull up tight on the lazy jacks. Then push up the outside of the flakes until the lazy jacks hold them up. Then measure as described above.

Attached standard material layout.

 

 

 

 

 

lazy.jpg

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ok here we go...  went to boat put the main back on and raised it,  cinched up the LJ tight and then dropped the main. and did a flake

in cm

Lazy Jack   4

A- 66

B-188

C-112

D-61

E 457

F-61

s-1.2

s1-0.6

G -30

H- 43

 

FWIW  I did watch the sail right video again.   according to their calcs  my panels are going to be 120cm tall  at the mast, 58 cm at the aft end  

their plans have the mast cover section as a zip-on-off cover.  that being said.  once I laid their measurements over  my piece of sunbrella (in cad) and flip the one panel so they "nest"  i end up with a few inches overlap on the long side (diagonal)  FUCK  however the sail rite folks spec their sleeve for the batten as a  2.5cm OD(3/4" pvc pipe) while my batten is only 1.25cm  od.  much smaller sleeve so Id regain some of those overlapped inches.

Since I am also sewing onto a bolt rope tape, and will not need the extra hems  and twist lock fasteners at the bottom like sail rite,  Id be able to recover  another inch or so.

so yeah  loosely based on  sailrite calcs  i needed another yard.  likely based on your calcs, which would include a built in mast wrap, likley needed 2more yards

that all being said.  I still have fabric left over from the dodger build and fabric I haven't used for the Bimini Build.  so all is not lost.  yet...

 

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I am not very proud to present this. It is my pinnacle for utilizing the minimum amount of cloth and be damned the amount of time to make it work. It works only with non-coated cloth. You're just trying to limit the number of seams in the zipper pieces.

lazy(6).thumb.jpg.aaa735827140df8ecdc4bcb2b506a061.jpg

 

 

 

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Thanks for the effort trex.   I’ve opted to press forward with the sail rite  version. Or at least using their plans and directions while doing some On the fly mods 

spent a few hours laying everything out and marking it all up. Also did some hems and spent some time refining my technique for  cutting a 2” slit and finishing the edges. For the lazy jacks to attach to the batten

i think that a similar  horizontal slit that’s got some reinforcement and chafe protection on the inside Would be adequate for the reef lines to pass through.  Maybe 6-8” inches long at each reef attachment point in the boom. 

5B5B0460-9D2F-43B4-ADC9-809842D98846.jpeg

15E5FEEC-F420-4D66-8AEA-C53103833E95.jpeg

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On 4/1/2021 at 11:09 AM, IStream said:

FWIW, I haven't had any issues with my 3mm dyneema.

At the mast, the jack halyards go through small cheek blocks so the fasteners are in shear. Prior to changing to dyneema, the jack halyards went through small blocks on the underside of the spreaders so the only thing keeping them in place was a few fine threads in aluminum.

At the bag, the jacks wrap around the fiberglass battens running along the top of the bag so the forces are well distributed and don't tear out any stitching. 

The reason I went to dyneema was to isolate the compliance in the system to the bag itself. Though the dyneema has essentially no stretch, the bag has plenty of give and holds a better shape as it fills with the sail when I drop it. 

I went with 5mm dyneema because I had a ton of it.  I did learn that when splicing it, you need to go a little farther than you think because it is super slippery and could slide right out.

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  • 3 weeks later...

its been a while but,  got it done, well almost.  took it to the boat yesterday and put it on with the main.

with the bolt rope tape the full length,  makes it too long.  About 6" too long.  the bolt rope tape bunches up at the gooseneck.  so I did some ham fisted cutting to allow some freedom of movement,  and it worked.  just need to  hem the cuts and add in some reinforcement.

I also got very good measurements on where I need to cut slits in the cover to allow the reef lines to pass through.  so the new cover came off,  thankfully I did not butcher the old sail cover so the old cover went back on, also need to trim the zipper..

hoping for  good weather this weekend to refit the cover, add the battens, and hook up the lazy jacks. a few pics post construction

Also a bit miffed, in that,  I could have tapered the aft end down a bunch more to provide a more fitted appearance.   oh well...

 

IMG_2646.jpg

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It looks like you have some sort of mesh material top and bottom. For ventilation? Where did you get that? It looks like a purpose woven mesh strip. 

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@DDW  the last pic,  the white material  is dacron bolt rope tape.  not a mesh.    https://www.sailrite.com/Tape-Dacron-8oz-Teflon-White-5

Pic #2 the white panel with the diagonal print  is the removable panel wraps around the front of the mast  is some dacron backed kevlar sail material I had laying around.  the diamonds are the kevlar strands

 

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Ah, I had mistaken the teflon threads for air holes. 

Are you doing anything to help the cover breath? The biggest problem I have is the entrapment of moisture inside the cover. I've been trying to come up with a top detail which results in a peak at the top to shed water, rather than a funnel that my current Doyle version forms. Can't say I've had any revelations yet on how to do this. What happens is the battens in the sides are holding the weight, the zippered flaps between them sag making a trough. It does not help that the detail at the battens has a standing hem held vertical by the lazyjack webbing attachments. 

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yeah the battens create a built in trough...  on the plus side, it is sloped fore aft so the rain should roll off like water off a ducks back (yeah right).

I do have some phifertex  that I could install for venting,  if it comes to that.  I could also just install some grommets and not have to take the pack off the rig.  or take the hot knife and cut some gaps in the luff tape..

one other thing I was thinking about was  sewing some velcro or twist-locs on the aft end of the cover.  to close it up.  that way if I get any driving rain from the stern, while at the dock, it won't get in...

Here is some of the final details for the reef line pass-throughs. and the cut-out at the gooseneck

zipper is one tooth off .  so I'm either aligned at the aft end or aligned at the mast.  So close.  the back end and zipper are not that crooked.  just the way  the fabric laid when I took the photo.

 

IMG_2674.jpg

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IMG_2677.jpg

IMG_2678.jpg

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Got it installed today. I think I still need to do some tweaking though. The batten forward of the first lazy jack has a tendency to droop down when it’s all zipped up. So I need to figure out a way to lift the front of the pack to prevent the droop. Either add a loop of sort to the front edge of the main body of the pack and then Use the main halyard to lift it when not in use. 

Or use the spin pole track on the front of the mast and attach it to the front wrap around panel. Which would be much easier of project/short term fix

I could probably stand to shorten each batten by a couple more inches too

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20 hours ago, Marcjsmith said:

... The batten forward of the first lazy jack has a tendency to droop down when it’s all zipped up. So I need to figure out a way to lift the front of the pack to prevent the droop...

I could probably stand to shorten each batten by a couple more inches too

Hi Marc,

Very nicely done, congrats.

I think that the droop forward of the first lazy jack (and behind the last lazy jack) is caused by the points of suspension. Basically the batten  in front of the lazy jack should be less than half the distance between points of suspension.

Fixing the droop is pretty easy. Just run another fixed length lazy jack from the forward lower fall to the front of the batten / top of the lazy bag.

I tend to limit the forward batten position 20 cm behind the mast so it doesn't hook on the mast.

At the stern, the battens ends about 20 cm forward of the finished edge and I use a drawstring in the hem to 'close' the bag.

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@t.rex  adding an extra fixed leg as you mentioned is an option I’ve considered   The down side though,  to add a new slit  to the batten pocket and finish it properly  means complete removal of the stack pack and the mainsail and I’ll have to rip out some seams.   I could use a hot knife to make the slit for the season and then just finish it next winter.  But that doesn’t give me the warm fuzzies.  I’ll likely take my small sewing machine to the boat. And add a loop to the wrap around just to get me through the season. And hook it to the spin pole track

@DDW I have the twist locks and “lift the dot” fasteners already in my “spare parts bin” from the Po.  The loxx fasteners are nice though. 

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