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Overtaking slower lower pointing cats to leeward


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I sail a windrush edge F18 with my mate, The boat has a current deck sweeper and  very long boards and is capable of sailing very high to the breeze if asked to. A couple of weeks ago we sailed a state championships alongside the 14 foot paper tiger catamarans. for those not familiar with the paper tiger class there is some dispute over the designer but they occur both in New Zealand and Australia, have a 1950's pin head rig, very soft mast that is prone to breaking and when sailed well they drop the traveller 300mm and foot like crazy.

During the regatta we tacked under a  particuarly  arrogant PT sailor, the breeze would have been 5 knots or less and we had intended to sail past clear to leeward.  As we were sailing below the slower boat the breeze gusted up to 10-15 knots, so we have sheeted on and and while getting out on wire, We have inadvertently started sailing a lot higher. So now i have looked up an the PT has cracked off and sailed down onto us.  So we have started scream for the PT to point up while trying to get off the breeze ourselves.  by the time we have matched the course it feels like we are reaching. At no stage did the PT sailor match our course and refused  any attempt to avoid a collision. At one point it got so close I flew a hull over the back of the guys boat and touched my bow on his rudder stock. 

My crew did lodge a protest after the race but the race officer ignored it and has not been addressed to this date.

My first instinct was to let it go as one of things that happened on the water but my crew was quite upset and lodged the protest.

The incident still haunts me and going forward I would like to clear up our rights in the situation. 

I don't mind being wrong, just dont want to go through this again.

Cheers
Dazz.

Protest.png

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Looks to me like you are the overtaking vessel and should have stayed clear of them. You only have rights as a leeward boat if you are overlapped when the boats come within 2 boat lengths, which generally means you’re traveling at similar speeds on a converging course. 

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You hit his rudder stock, retire, as overtaking boat keeps clear.

Ron Given designed the Paper Tiger.

WTF is a F18 even tangling with a slow old PT.

Show some respect.

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Unless he clearly TURNED into you (tough to prove), you're pretty much in the wrong. You'd need an official right there and it would have to be a major turn, and you said you basically turned up into him in getting out on the wire.

Buy those sailors a round, bury the hatchet, and go practice in the gusts -- you'll minimize ill will, have more fun (time on the water > time in protest), and be better set to roll under him next time...

...or if he starts footing down on you again, ne ready to bear up and roll right upwind of him next time. Your F18 oughta eat him for lunch, especially at pointing!

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I don't think there is enough information to give an answer.  The rules that apply are below.  Based on your description it sounds like you acquired right of way by sailing from clear astern and became overlapped within 2 boat lengths.  At that point you may not sail above your proper course and must initially give the windward boat room to keep clear.  Beyond that, the windward boat must keep clear and the proper course is that of the leeward boat.  

From your description we need to know when the overlap occurred, the position of the boats at that time, how much room and opportunity the windward boat had to keep clear, etc.  If you flew a hull and hit his rudder stock it doesn't appear like there was an overlap until the last second as if there was a greater overlap the contact would have occurred further forward on his boat but more information is needed.  

Proper Course A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term.

11 ON THE SAME TACK, OVERLAPPED When boats are on the same tack and overlapped, a windward boat shall keep clear of a leeward boat.

15 ACQUIRING RIGHT OF WAY When a boat acquires right of way, she shall initially give the other boat room to keep clear, unless she acquires right of way because of the other boat’s actions.

17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course while they remain on the same tack and overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat.

 

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Sorry,  I did keave out some details,  

When we tacked over we there was large gap between us and there should have been plenty of room to pass to leeward.  When the breeze came the papter tiger cracked off and beared down. That is how they sail them, some where between 50 and 55 degrees to the breeze. 

When contact was made (no damage or injury) It was our the bottom of our windward hull about 2 meters from the bow that touched the top of the rudder box, There is a lot of yelling going on at this stage but at no stage did the paper tiger make any attempt to avoid the collision.

With GPS on both boats, the PT does about 9 kn upwind and the F18 is 12kn. Certainly all happend very fast and it does not take many seconds to travel a boat lenght, (less than 5 seconds).

I think if there was a protest both boats would have been DSQ, I dont doubt we were in the wrong but you still have to make an atempt to avoid contact.

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On 4/3/2021 at 2:40 AM, Kenny Dumas said:

Looks to me like you are the overtaking vessel and should have stayed clear of them. You only have rights as a leeward boat if you are overlapped when the boats come within 2 boat lengths, which generally means you’re traveling at similar speeds on a converging course. 

The rules help if you look them up.  Rule 11 applies for the OP as long as they do not try and luff.

11  ON THE SAME TACK, OVERLAPPED

When boats are on the same tack and overlapped, a windward boat shall keep clear of a leeward boat.

Rule 17 applies mostly to reaching or running situations where a faster boat is overtaking.  Not relevant to the example in this thread.

17  ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE

If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course while they remain on the same tack and overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat.This rule does not apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear.

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I think the applicable elements of this are "particularly arrogant" and "inadvertently started sailing a lot higher".  In normal beating the windward boat keeps clear, so he should have tacked away; but being particularly arrogant, he demurred.  Then he hit you with his stern; but the collision may have been avoided had you not inadvertently started sailing a lot higher (probably because you had to keep from capsize, being trimmed for 5 kts).  Next time, tack earlier (or just head up to slow) to avoid (I know, the wind was only 5 kts back then--how could you possible know a gust would hit--you couldn't BUT... you then tack again (or fall off if you headed up) to go over the top which is particularly humbling to those who are particularly arrogant.  Plus, if a gust hits, you can head up with impunity.   It's particularly fun to sit on the wind of someone lower and slower.  

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2 hours ago, MultiThom said:

It's particularly fun to sit on the wind of someone lower and slower.  

That puts the rest of your arrogant comments into perspective.  You should try getting your fun without fucking with other people.

Arrogance that you mentioned three times, has nothing to do with the RRS.

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you sail an f18....the other sails a pt

you seem to have negative comments on the pt generally

were you actually in the same division?

hard to protest if they were in a different division

best advice?

look ahead and plan your race track better

you should just clear away

i sail something fast and work hard to stay clear in mixed fleets cause it just pays off

if you can point so high should go over the top

the ‘arrogant’ comments suggest preconceived perceptions

everyone is just trying to sail their race

you should sail yours better

were you in the right or wrong?....not sure.....reckon you ended up in wrong place

where you put the boat is up to you as the skipper

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I am not sure what gives you that impression Fur Ball? I have a lot of mates that sail them. Have done a lot of work helping to run 3 of their national championships. 

The PT is not my cup of tea, not a fan of the rig or the hulls but they are a good cheap class to get into and for the most part the boats are relatively even and they have good sailing. 

No not in the same division, but hey protests can be lodged by the committee or the association and they are not even sailing.  

I have been sailing with paper tigers for 40 odd years and to date I have not hit any until now. If i was going to cut one in half in a red mist fury reckon that would have happened by now. 

I certainly did not intend on putting myself into a situation where the boats would be close, it was a change in breeze that brought us together. 

It is not just me that feels this way about this individual, My first ever experience with him was watching him sail his boat into the side of a friends nacra 5.8 after tacking onto port just after the start. When i asked him why he didn't do his penalty turns he said it was just a club race and he wanted to see how his boat speed was and i should fuck off. 

The same weekend another paper tiger sailor told him that he makes everyone in the club uncomfortable and it makes him not want to come sailing. 

old mate is a good sailor, just not a very nice person. 

 

 

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Same advice as before

sail your boat better

if it was one of those state titles vic, nsw or wa some even noted on the announcement that other fleets were sailing

different division you can’t protest

if you have been sailing this long and do not know that best spend some time understanding the rules

you refer to them again as a cheap class, soft masts etc

is this a pissing contest cause your cat is worth more?

just sail your boat and leave others to sail theirs

you should be so much faster they are just traffic on the course

going to argue with that ferry, powerboat or ship that comes through a course?

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4 hours ago, furr_ball said:

Same advice as before

sail your boat better

if it was one of those state titles vic, nsw or wa some even noted on the announcement that other fleets were sailing

different division you can’t protest

if you have been sailing this long and do not know that best spend some time understanding the rules

you refer to them again as a cheap class, soft masts etc

is this a pissing contest cause your cat is worth more?

just sail your boat and leave others to sail theirs

you should be so much faster they are just traffic on the course

going to argue with that ferry, powerboat or ship that comes through a course?

+100 on the above. I sail in a mixed cat fleet with a range of performances and skills, and I just work to stay out of other boats paths. Might play it closer with boats that rate and sail similar, just for kicks as I know the sailors well. 

Sounds like with a little bit more attention you could have sped up, pinched, and gotten on the inside of him, all while staying out of trouble. 

As the faster, higher-pointing, more nimble boat, and as the boat overtaking, it's on you @Dazz to stay well clear. This isn't specifically about the RRS but about general principles. 

For example: if the timing of the overlap was good and you might be within your rights, but even then... it's a rather unfriendly move to squeeze a boat that doesn't point as well as you do in a mixed fleet. 

 

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12 hours ago, Dazz said:

 

Please read the link below for inter division / inter club protests.   

RRS | Post (racingrulesofsailing.org)

 

Had a look

Ok so maybe you can protest depending on a range of criteria / situations

we are mostly sailing in club events not worth a sheep station

did it cost you the state title or did the bloke just piss you off?

tried to find which states you were in, but hard to find, seemed a few goodall bundock brewins featured

feel free trying to get redress in your race for the 30 seconds you lost by protesting some other boat in some other race

this still applies......

sail better...nail a few tacks..take a better line downwind...pick the shift...

you just got more than that back

spend your protest fee at the bar instead

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46 minutes ago, furr_ball said:

 

tried to find which states you were in, but hard to find, seemed a few goodall bundock brewins featured

 

Tasmania, Lauderdale,  10 Paper tigers and 4 F18 ( 1crewed by arseclowns)

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8 hours ago, furr_ball said:

we are mostly sailing in club events not worth a sheep station

did it cost you the state title or did the bloke just piss you off?

That there is part of the problem.  People ignoring rule breakers.

Have you read Rule 2?

 

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not suggesting you should not hold people to account

should all sail the rules

do question whether any grounds for protest

also bigger picture of not ending up in the situation at all

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  • 3 weeks later...

It seems hard to believe on that facts given that when you ceased to be the overtaking boat and became overlapped to leeward you gave the windward boat room to keep clear.

While you were astern, the PT had every right to bear off. He does not have to anticipate the overlap, let alone your lifting to the gust.

Given the point of contact and relative speeds, any turn to avoid you post overlap may well have thrown his stern in your way (so no room to keep clear).

So the answer of who is right and wrong is probably uncertain.

You could end up being found in the wrong.

Plus in any case failing to avoid a collision.

I'm not sure he is any more morally 'to blame' than you are whoever wins the lottery of a protest.

I sail skiffs and follow the mantra some of the others have pointed out; every other boat is a speed bump - go around it.

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2 minutes ago, Paranda said:

Elfström ; three olympic golds , never filed a single protest in his life.....

It's hard to believe that he would not have had a reason to.

That means that he chose to not protest people who broke the rules of sailing?

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