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Downwind tradewind rigs thoughts - cheap/easy to handle


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3 hours ago, Zonker said:

what is this "roll" you speak of?  Watching our buddies on Delos running DDW with twin poled out headsails they roll their guts out. Blech.

When it got around 18-20 the main came down and the genoa got gradually furled. Sometimes we ran W&W with the staysail but it was not very stable (designed for very narrow sheeting angle/position). We had a 4 sail inventory (main/genoa/staysail/spinnaker) and for our boat that worked very well for upwind up to 30 knots beating. Never beat into >30 knots but I think it would be ok to say 35 but just less fun. Any more wind and we would have cracked off and tried to slow the boat down.

Here's the situation with typical cruising cats with big main/small jib. We're running our big genoa poled out with our 4' pole. Main is pretty close to 90 out. Look at the other cats. Their jib is blanketed by the main and the main hits the aft shrouds way too early. Our rig was ideal for tradewinds downwind sailing with low effort. This was in the Great Sandy Strait where you can't always gybe back and forth or you go aground.

 

I went from Bora Bora to Fiji never needing to hoist the main. Sometimes under Genoa, but usually just the working jib. Always  had plenty of wind, always averaged 10 knots and never steered. Going downwind is heaven.

I had a blast in the Great Sandy Strait but got nailed by a big wave in the Wide Bay Bar. That took awhile to recover from, but I loved the strait. I miss cruising.

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Here’s an approach - freedom yachts, spinnaker is attached at the bottom to a spar on what’s called a Gun mount on the bow pulpit. Spinnaker only might be mellow........dudes.......

Cool idea I’d forgotten about- ok sailors, groove to the tunes!

Here’s another one, no tunes:(

 

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11 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

I went from Bora Bora to Fiji never needing to hoist the main. Sometimes under Genoa, but usually just the working jib. Always  had plenty of wind, always averaged 10 knots and never steered. Going downwind is heaven.

I had a blast in the Great Sandy Strait but got nailed by a big wave in the Wide Bay Bar. That took awhile to recover from, but I loved the strait. I miss cruising.

Sorry, I just can’t resist placing this here.  Bora Bora.  Is that east or west of Indianapolis?  Oh wait, Indianapolis is in India, right? :-)  My bad. Wrong country.

 

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17 hours ago, accnick said:

You really have a 17' J measurement on a 33-footer?  What kind of boat is that?

Typical for a cutter to have the mast well aft, isn't it?

What's the general opinion on either solent stays or set-flying inner/outer headsails as part of a double headsail DW sailplan? We have a masthead IOR 30 footer with slightly swept spreaders (plus fore&aft lower shrouds) and are adding an anchor platform. We plan on a Zero for close reaching tacked to the platform; then want to play with double headsails for lazy downwind work. Regular headstay will carry 138% dacron genoa on furler. I've heard a solent or free-flying masthead sail can slacken the headstay too much, make the foil sag.

My original plan was working genoa to leeward, #3 on a masthead halyard but tacked to hardpoint 3' aft of tack fitting, poled out to windward. But that would require a whisker pole, as the spi pole is too long. Sym might be fun on a settled Pacific afternoon, but at 750sqft is a bit much for shorthanding at night! Mainsail is currently only 171 sqft, so no help there.:unsure:

 

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With that tiny sprit what is the purpose of a Code 0 aside from enriching the sailmaker? If no limiting rule it is no different than a huge light genoa. Maybe you mean a Cruiser Code 0 which says Code 0 on the sailbag but is really just a round luff assy. A short sprit at close reaching angles is a desperately small increase in projected area.

My opinion? Nobody asked...but the extra weight, drag, and expense of supporting all those different sail plans renders it pointless from a performance standpoint. But if just goofing around...fine.

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1 minute ago, El Borracho said:

With that tiny sprit what is the purpose of a Code 0 aside from enriching the sailmaker? If no limiting rule it is no different than a huge light genoa. Maybe you mean a Cruiser Code 0 which says Code 0 on the sailbag but is really just a round luff assy. A short sprit at close reaching angles is a desperately small increase in projected area.

My opinion? Nobody asked...but the extra weight, drag, and expense of supporting all those different sail plans renders it pointless from a performance standpoint. But if just goofing around...fine.

Fine -- call it a lightweight/possible nylon drifter/genoa.:rolleyes: Code 0 is a name applied to a rather broad range of sails today, from lightly flattish asys with a luff knuckle to board-taut Cuben decksweepers pulling 4000# of luff tension on an 6' sprit. The point of tacking it to the anchor platform is so we can leave the genoa on its foil and set the drifter flying, probably on a continuous line furler. It gets it out front for close reaching, preferred since the next practical tack point is three feet aft of the bow fitting. We are adding the platform because there's no room to rack a Manson otherwise.

Also, I'll be making the drifter myself, so no sailmaker will be enriched. Fuuuuck, dude.

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4 minutes ago, Diarmuid said:

Fine -- call it a lightweight/possible nylon drifter/genoa.:rolleyes: Code 0 is a name applied to a rather broad range of sails today, from lightly flattish asys with a luff knuckle to board-taut Cuben decksweepers pulling 4000# of luff tension on an 6' sprit. The point of tacking it to the anchor platform is so we can leave the genoa on its foil and set the drifter flying, probably on a continuous line furler. It gets it out front for close reaching, preferred since the next practical tack point is three feet aft of the bow fitting. We are adding the platform because there's no room to rack a Manson otherwise.

Also, I'll be making the drifter myself, so no sailmaker will be enriched. Fuuuuck, dude.

I was thinking the same thing.  El B is just playing devil’s advocate, I suppose - not a bad thing.

I loved the idea of a Code type (drifter, or whatever too) sail on continuous line furler until I looked at all the gear costs - even with me installing, etc, crazy expensive for what it is.

Howevrr, if I could make the sail, I’d be into it.  My wife is an amazing, very experienced sewer.  Have a good machine. What’s your plan for making a drifter?  A Sailrite kit or something like that?  I’m quite intrigued by this idea now.  Likely a relatively simple thing to see.

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A drifter is a great sail option. Simpatico with your yacht. Call it what it is. 

Is a Manson on an extended roller a go-fast option on your boat? How about that furled genoa? Those are my points exactly. And if speed is not the point, what is? Think about it, dude.

3 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

I was thinking the same thing.  El B is just playing devil’s advocate, I suppose - not a bad thing.

Yup. Just questioning peoples thinking. Clarifying. And spouting thoughtful opinions, heh. Making sails is pretty fun. A kit is likely best for first timers, but I would just jump into it on my own (and fail on the first try).

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3 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

I was thinking the same thing.  El B is just playing devil’s advocate, I suppose - not a bad thing.

I loved the idea of a Code type (drifter, or whatever too) sail on continuous line furler until I looked at all the gear costs - even with me installing, etc, crazy expensive for what it is.

Howevrr, if I could make the sail, I’d be into it.  My wife is an amazing, very experienced sewer.  Have a good machine. What’s your plan for making a drifter?  A Sailrite kit or something like that?  I’m quite intrigued by this idea now.  Likely a relatively simple thing to see.

We built a 1.5oz masthead nylon drifter/Zero for our little SanJuan21, designed it specifically for the reach between MDR and Catalina island. Our first trip, we got stranded in the shipping lanes when the wind went too light for the working jib to pull or the heavy genoa to stand in the Pacific swell. Second trip, we had the drifter sail (tacked to a stupid little bow eye in ft of the furler with a climbing sling), and it was a revelation.:) Even tho overall winds were lighter that year, we added 1kt to our average speeds and breezed through the traffic separation scheme, making our own apparent wind. It inflates in 2kts and doesn't slat in wakes or swells. I am totes sold on the benefits of a lightweight sail (<10kts) to keep the boat moving. As my partner said: "That sail is The Shit." The name stuck.:lol:

I designed the drifter using SailCut CAD, cut and sewed it in the living room. Ripstop is much easier to wrangle than Dacron, and given its stretchiness, perfect shape is less critical. The sail will locate its own preferred luff pocket. It stuffs in the tiniest little duffel and weighs maybe two pounds.

With a higher-clewed, lightweight drifter sail, we can also skew the working genoa a little heavier weight for durability, and a little flatter cut for greater wind range before reefing or changing down to the G3. Which G3 came with the boat, is designed to tack to the aft deck fitting from the masthead and be set flying. We may swap the continuous furler between it and the drifter. So we aren't complicating an IOR sailplan; we're stripping it down.

Usefulness of such a sail for extended downwind passages? Probably nil. ;)

 

 

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So let me ask this of the collective hive mind.  Lets say you are planning a Med to Caribbean trip in the next 2 - 3 years.  You currently own a 43' production boat with only a main and simple jib in you sail locker.   No pole, but your boat has winches, tracks and cars fitted, a robust attachment at the bow, and a spare halyard at the ready.  You are not single handing the big crossing but that is your normal situation.

My initial thoughts are a cable less furling asymmetrical spinnaker.  EX Onesails, or Fulstrom from Elvstrom.

This keeps you out of the DDW plan, but is that a real problem?  Sailing the trades at 150 deg. will be more distance, but so what, I am not trying to minimize that.

Adding a pole is not out of the question, but it is a lot of hardware to manage for the limited time it is ever used.  A second jib on the furler would be one possible choice but it really needs a pole for optimization.  

Sure I'm cheap, but I am also pragmatic.  I'll spend the money where I need to, but this is not about having the most sails that I could ever need, its about having the most economical number of sails to do the job that needs done.

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22 minutes ago, El Borracho said:

A drifter is a great sail option. Simpatico with your yacht. Call it what it is. 

Is a Manson on an extended roller a go-fast option on your boat? How about that furled genoa? Those are my points exactly. And if speed is not the point, what is? Think about it, dude.

Yup. Just questioning peoples thinking. Clarifying. And spouting thoughtful opinions, heh. Making sails is pretty fun. A kit is likely best for first timers, but I would just jump into it on my own (and fail on the first try).

Has nothing to do with 'go fast.' We do not race. The Ballad is a North Sea/Baltic Half-Tonner that moves well but likes a bit of wind to get it going. We hate motoring. A lightweight replacement for the stock 155% G1 will let us sail in light winds, rather than motor. The 138% working headsail on a furler simplifies inshore sail handling. The G3 is our sustained high wind sail, trying to think of ways to adapt it for a double-headed DW scenario. Doubt we'll ever use the 60sqft storm jib, but again -- it came with the boat. 

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33 minutes ago, Diarmuid said:

We built a 1.5oz masthead nylon drifter/Zero for our little SanJuan21, designed it specifically for the reach between MDR and Catalina island. Our first trip, we got stranded in the shipping lanes when the wind went too light for the working jib to pull or the heavy genoa to stand in the Pacific swell. Second trip, we had the drifter sail (tacked to a stupid little bow eye in ft of the furler with a climbing sling), and it was a revelation.:) Even tho overall winds were lighter that year, we added 1kt to our average speeds and breezed through the traffic separation scheme, making our own apparent wind. It inflates in 2kts and doesn't slat in wakes or swells. I am totes sold on the benefits of a lightweight sail (<10kts) to keep the boat moving. As my partner said: "That sail is The Shit." The name stuck.:lol:

I designed the drifter using SailCut CAD, cut and sewed it in the living room. Ripstop is much easier to wrangle than Dacron, and given its stretchiness, perfect shape is less critical. The sail will locate its own preferred luff pocket. It stuffs in the tiniest little duffel and weighs maybe two pounds.

With a higher-clewed, lightweight drifter sail, we can also skew the working genoa a little heavier weight for durability, and a little flatter cut for greater wind range before reefing or changing down to the G3. Which G3 came with the boat, is designed to tack to the aft deck fitting from the masthead and be set flying. We may swap the continuous furler between it and the drifter. So we aren't complicating an IOR sailplan; we're stripping it down.

Usefulness of such a sail for extended downwind passages? Probably nil. ;)

 

 

Agree - light air sails like that are overlooked by many.  

Yeah, I was not thinking of that sail for extended downwind - the whole thread is for me one big exercise in “figuring out” my whole sail plan overall.  First, get to Hawaii (basically downwind from where I am).  Next, figure out what I need to get back :-)

New Genoa is a given.  Likely also do a good used 100%-ish for heavier air upwind.  Have two hanked-on staysails for inner forestay - one brand/new never used small-ish one, and a larger older one still in fine shape, reef-able.  (Would like a second pole for staysail - need to understand needed length better.)  Have symm spinn that works fine tacked to bow flown like an assym.  (If we’re feeling really pulled together, and not drinking fruity umbrella drinks, we could run it normally like a classic spinn with pole - with a with a bit of practice...my teenage daughter is a dinghy sailor and not a racer but a bit of a hotshot, so I need to keep up and not be a lazy sailor :-) ) Just need to upgrade the sock to make easier to use in lazy cruiser style tacked to bow/dousing at night or in bigger air.
 

Only thing missing, really, is a sail like a drifter.  I’m totally down with sewing one as a winter project.

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You posters hurt my brain. One common philosophy is low cost and ease of handling are important, while speed is not important. If that is actually true for you. Which I feel it is not. Then the low cost easy not-racing way from North America to Hawaii is to have a mainsail and a lapper. Period. Everything else is quite optional given your goals. Almost by magic those are the two sails that will do the return trip. Go simple, go now. 

You do not need to sail DDW. I never do. So many conflicting thoughts. "Not racing" but must follow the Vic-Maui or Transpac sailing wisdom??? I might opt to head W into the Mid Pac High. It is a neato place. Then drift S into the trades. Entirely possible. Or go due S to quickly escape this bleak cold damp before turning for Hawaii.

On your moderate sized boats, with the lapper, you can reasonably easily skip the furler, even. For shorthanded cruisers going to Hawaii the flying headsails won't be used much. Granted they are fun to fly in the sunny hours....until the first squall (bigger that the others) teaches an unforgettable lesson.

Make sure those two sails and all rigging, standing and running, is new. Not "cruiser new". But really new. That is where your money should go.

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2 hours ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

continuous line furler until I looked at all the gear costs

Jud, on a boat your size for a ddw (or even reaching) sail you don't need the continuous line furling.  You could just hoist and douse it on its own rope luff free flying. Or if you want to get fancy make up a diy sock for it. Or hoist a removable hank on stay for it.  Would all work just fine for you.

Also making your own is terrific if you have the time and skills . . . but I would take a look at the available 'used' options first.  You are quite likely to find something that will work in 'as new' condition for just the material costs of the sail.  It may not be 'perfect' but for DDW it does not need to be.  My personaly suggestion Get a couple different used ones, see what works, before you either make or buy new.  That is exactly what we did on Hawk.

 

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<Purple font on>

I'm gonna market a carbon spar with internal furling roller blind square sail to the ARC crowd. Super easy to furl with an electric motor and small li-ion battery self contained at one end. It will be Bluetooth so you have a dedicated furling app on your phone. Will be way cooler than a Parasailor but just as much money.</p>

 

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8 minutes ago, Zonker said:

<Purple font on>

I'm gonna market a carbon spar with internal furling roller blind square sail to the ARC crowd. Super easy to furl with an electric motor and small li-ion battery self contained at one end. It will be Bluetooth so you have a dedicated furling app on your phone. Will be way cooler than a Parasailor but just as much money.</p>

 

https://saffieryachts.com/models/saffier-se-37ft-lounge/

 

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1 hour ago, El Borracho said:

You posters hurt my brain. One common philosophy is low cost and ease of handling are important, while speed is not important. If that is actually true for you. Which I feel it is not. Then the low cost easy not-racing way from North America to Hawaii is to have a mainsail and a lapper. Period. Everything else is quite optional given your goals. Almost by magic those are the two sails that will do the return trip. Go simple, go now. 

You do not need to sail DDW. I never do. So many conflicting thoughts. "Not racing" but must follow the Vic-Maui or Transpac sailing wisdom??? I might opt to head W into the Mid Pac High. It is a neato place. Then drift S into the trades. Entirely possible. Or go due S to quickly escape this bleak cold damp before turning for Hawaii.

On your moderate sized boats, with the lapper, you can reasonably easily skip the furler, even. For shorthanded cruisers going to Hawaii the flying headsails won't be used much. Granted they are fun to fly in the sunny hours....until the first squall (bigger that the others) teaches an unforgettable lesson.

Make sure those two sails and all rigging, standing and running, is new. Not "cruiser new". But really new. That is where your money should go.

Hmm, not sure what you’re on about.  Quite simple.  Didn’t say speed wasn’t important, but can’t really be a priority per se (33’ ft heavy displacement; we sail it as well as we can).  But in light air, a drifter seems like a good thing to have.

New main, new Genoa.  Already have one new staysail, and one older but good condition (would bring new one).  Symm spinn is good shape; can fly classic style or tacked to bow assym style if desired.  Have pole.  
 

By “lapper”, do you mean Genoa?  If so, my understanding is that rolled in a ways, going into the trades (20-25+?) on the return, sail shape would be terrible.  So, it’s my understanding that I’d need to get a smaller jib to put on for that leg (which I’ve done on a return - #4 on an SC 50).

(New standing/running rigging a given, which is why I didn’t raise it.  As to route, different topic...likely not V-M direct, but via SF).

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53 minutes ago, estarzinger said:

Jud, on a boat your size for a ddw (or even reaching) sail you don't need the continuous line furling.  You could just hoist and douse it on its own rope luff free flying. Or if you want to get fancy make up a diy sock for it. Or hoist a removable hank on stay for it.  Would all work just fine for you.

Also making your own is terrific if you have the time and skills . . . but I would take a look at the available 'used' options first.  You are quite likely to find something that will work in 'as new' condition for just the material costs of the sail.  It may not be 'perfect' but for DDW it does not need to be.  My personaly suggestion Get a couple different used ones, see what works, before you either make or buy new.  That is exactly what we did on Hawk.

 

Cool - thanks, Evans.  Noted - no continuous line furler - didn’t want to budget for something like anyway any time soon (maybe later...). 
 

Didn’t know there was “such thing” as a removable stay (to run a drifter, etc).  What’s a good way to rig up something like that - can you point me to something online?  (Re: sock, have one - just need to improve/modernize it a bit to make lines easier to handle a la ATN’s ‘new and improved’ sock).

Good idea re: used sail (for a drifter) - to size it, maybe the idea would be to use SailCAD to work up an idea of dimensions for my boat, and then try to find a similar size one?  (I’d have no idea how to size it otherwise.)

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"Speed" means striving to have the boat sailing near the top end of your expectations...even if that is only 4 knots. "Not concerned about speed" is something else entirely. More like gurgling along, generally the right direction, avoiding gales, cooking, playing guitar, reading, sleeping full nights, whipping some lines, chewing the rag on the SSB or otherwise...take your pick...cannot have both.

A lapper is 110% full-hoist. It just barely "laps" the shrouds. Likely perfect for a heavier small rig "not racing" boat on your proposed courses. The sails flown on a SC50 delivery are not a good guide for your boat as a #4 is a relatively huge amount of sail on a ULDB.

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Sizing a drifter: Luff length should be the same or slightly shorter than your luff length. Everything else usually doesn't matter except maybe foot length - so that sheet goes to an existing car. You can always add hardware but let's try to work with what you have first.

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7 hours ago, Dogscout said:

So let me ask this of the collective hive mind.  Lets say you are planning a Med to Caribbean trip in the next 2 - 3 years.  You currently own a 43' production boat with only a main and simple jib in you sail locker.   No pole, but your boat has winches, tracks and cars fitted, a robust attachment at the bow, and a spare halyard at the ready.  You are not single handing the big crossing but that is your normal situation.

My initial thoughts are a cable less furling asymmetrical spinnaker.  EX Onesails, or Fulstrom from Elvstrom.

This keeps you out of the DDW plan, but is that a real problem?  Sailing the trades at 150 deg. will be more distance, but so what, I am not trying to minimize that.

Adding a pole is not out of the question, but it is a lot of hardware to manage for the limited time it is ever used.  A second jib on the furler would be one possible choice but it really needs a pole for optimization.  

Sure I'm cheap, but I am also pragmatic.  I'll spend the money where I need to, but this is not about having the most sails that I could ever need, its about having the most economical number of sails to do the job that needs done.

I’d go nylon upwind/downwind flying drifter (fill the hole the jib leaves you) with a snuffer.  Not too big.  Some nylons these days can take a lot of wind.  A snuffer can be vertical or horizontal, and it can be used for more than one sail if the sizes are right....make sure it’s slippery and dries quickly...

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5 hours ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Didn’t know there was “such thing” as a removable stay (to run a drifter, etc).  What’s a good way to rig up something like that.

how many masthead halyards do you have forward (other than for the jib on the main furler)?

I presume you have at least one, or the ability (a tang at the masthead) to place one.

If one then you make up a 'stay' (either wire or dyneema) tbimbles either end.  On your spare (spinnaker) halyard you hoist up this stay plus a block with a 2nd halyard in it.  The bottom of the stay attached to something decently strong (does not need to be totally bulletproof because it is not going to see upwind loads but should be sturdy) somewhere forward (front of anchor roller perhaps).  You hank onto the wire and hoist with the 2nd halyard thru the block you lifted.

If you have two (spin) halyards (as many boats do) - you can lift the stay with one and hoist the sail with the other, dont need to raise a block up.

You can get fancy and more stay tension with 2 or 3:1's at the top or bottom of the stay but is totally unnecessary for this downwind purpose.

I would guess there are a huge number of threads about removable stays, but most are probably slanted toward heavy weather storm sails or upwind (solent sort) applications, both of which need to be way stronger, with much higher stay and luff tension, than the application you are talking about

 

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25 minutes ago, Amati said:

I’d go nylon upwind/downwind flying drifter (fill the hole the jib leaves you) with a snuffer.  Not too big.  Some nylons these days can take a lot of wind.  A snuffer can be vertical or horizontal, and it can be used for more than one sail if the sizes are right....make sure it’s slippery and dries quickly...

There are both lightweight Urethane coated RipStop Nylon and Polyester cloths available (both colored, somewhat hard to tell apart visually), either great for these types of sails.  The nylon is more resistant to shock loading but more vulnerable to UV.  We used the polyester for our 'blast reacher' (that was how we had it cut, but used it more like a heavy asym), North thought we were crazy to go as light as 3oz, but it worked perfectly - was super light and easy to handle and proved way strong enough for the way we used it (wind always on or aft of beam).  The only trick was to get the head patch correct - their first try had a stress riser and ripped right off.

For our zero we used DP's CZ 30 o2 cloth - we found this a super versatile sail, used it both in the 'classic' zero light/upwind range, and as a heavier/deeper sail. For racers there are often better options in the deeper configuration but for a cruiser this was super flexible and easy to use.

And for our asym we used 1.5oz nylon.

But really almost anything lightish (1.5- 3oz)will work for jud's application

 

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oh, jud, I forgot to mention . . . you can also have 'removable' stays that are fixed/attached at the masthead, and brought back to the mast and lashed down when not in use, and tackled down somewhere forward when in use.  Our staysail stay was like that - we would bring it back to the mast when we were sailing upwind so the jib would tack thru cleanly.  There are various pros and cons vs the entirely removable ones I mention in post above.

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3 hours ago, Zonker said:

Sizing a drifter: Luff length should be the same or slightly shorter than your luff length. Everything else usually doesn't matter except maybe foot length - so that sheet goes to an existing car. You can always add hardware but let's try to work with what you have first.

I’d also try to find out the wetted surface of your hull.  FWIW, I like (rule of thumb) a 3:1 sail area to wetted surface for crisp light air sailing that you can also use downwind in more air, so if you can use the third sail to fill in the missing SA, at least it gives you a number to shoot for.  Anywhere from 2.4 (Amatis/  blade) can work too, but YMMV depending what your d/l is- Amati’s blade with fathead main was SA/Disp 22.4 (d/l 96), and that was satisfying in light air.  The drifter we have now brings the SA/Disp to ~26, and that’s too much for 5 knots close reaching, but we’re skinny.  It’s great up to 3k. (The SA/WS for the drifter is 2.64).  The bigger the boat, the more the relative numbers change.  If you can get in touch with (bug) the designer, that can help.  But it seems in general, doubling upwind SA for downwind is something you see quite a bit.

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5 hours ago, El Borracho said:

A lapper is 110% full-hoist. It just barely "laps" the shrouds. Likely perfect for a heavier small rig "not racing" boat on your proposed courses. The sails flown on a SC50 delivery are not a good guide for your boat as a #4 is a relatively huge amount of sail on a ULDB.

 

Gotcha.  By #4 for SC50 delivery, I simply meant that I had understood by that (i.e., the changing from large Genoa to #4 before leaving Honolulu) that I needed a smaller jib (say, 90-100%?) on board as well to put on in place of a larger Genoa before such a long leg, which starts to windward. 


I guess the question simply is, “what size Genoa should I get”.  Currently have about 150%. Big.  So 110% full hoist satisfies the ability to reef partially for windward work up to, perhaps, 30 or so, I’m guessing. (And after that go down to staysail.)  In other words, a relatively versatile headsail.  
 

Hadn’t realized what a lapper was.  (I’d thought it referred to a large Genoa that has a large overlap of the shrouds...hence my confusion over what you meant.)

Ultimately, whatever I get should also be practical/versatile for higher latitude sailing as well.

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You just need to know your boat.  It can blow 25-35 out there for days on end. Using a rolled up genoa for going to windward circles us back to the "speed" issue. Yes, you can go to weather that way. It is not "fast". Better to bear away and head somewhere else for a while.

 

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40 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

 

Gotcha.  By #4 for SC50 delivery, I simply meant that I had understood by that (i.e., the changing from large Genoa to #4 before leaving Honolulu) that I needed a smaller jib (say, 90-100%?) on board as well to put on in place of a larger Genoa before such a long leg, which starts to windward. 


I guess the question simply is, “what size Genoa should I get”.  Currently have about 150%. Big.  So 110% full hoist satisfies the ability to reef partially for windward work up to, perhaps, 30 or so, I’m guessing. (And after that go down to staysail.)  In other words, a relatively versatile headsail.  
 

Hadn’t realized what a lapper was.  (I’d thought it referred to a large Genoa that has a large overlap of the shrouds...hence my confusion over what you meant.)

Ultimately, whatever I get should also be practical/versatile for higher latitude sailing as well.

At what wind speed do you not want to be overpowered upwind?  Same question downwind....  At what point are you happy smaller jib taking over?  If I might refer you to the small freedom rig boat above- the one with the boat going to weather with a reef in.  That boat and the sailors in her just look happy.  That is sailing nirvana.

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Honolulu to North America starts as a reach N. Only a sadist would beat into the tradewind seas. Although I have left Honolulu on port tack when the trades had so much N in them I couldn't stomach the bow pointing at Vladivostok. Worked out fine in the end after the trough passed.

Consider a working jib for your return headsail. Depends on your boat and what speed regime you settle on. Working jibs are around 85%. Sometimes short hoist. Staysail if that if your fancy $$$. Why be in a hurry to return to the Land of No. (BTW...There is a critical trick to making short hoist jibs for furling.)

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7 minutes ago, El Borracho said:

Honolulu to North America starts as a reach N. Only a sadist would beat into the tradewind seas. Although I have left Honolulu on port tack when the trades had so much N in them I couldn't stomach the bow pointing at Vladivostok. Worked out fine in the end after the trough passed.

Consider a working jib for your return headsail. Depends on your boat and what speed regime you settle on. Working jibs are around 85%. Sometimes short hoist. Staysail if that if your fancy $$$. Why be in a hurry to return to the Land of No. (BTW...There is a critical trick to making short hoist jibs for furling.)

Yes - I do believe that is what I was suggesting upthread - something like a 90% to replace the Genoa for longer windward legs.

Staysail - already have (two).

(Sadist?  Or masochist? :-) )

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11 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

(Sadist?  Or masochist? :-) )

I had assumed you were not the skipper of that SC50? So tell us more about yourself...

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9 minutes ago, El Borracho said:

I had assumed you were not the skipper of that SC50? So tell us more about yourself...

:-)

Indeed, I realized that after I posted.  

Well, it was a bit rough for severs days after leaving, going into it, but not too bad - and that gossamer craft held together, by gum :-). (We did later hit a large piece of concrete-encased floating foam —dock structure?— enough to take a chunk out of the stem —balsa cored, and came across a 40-50 ft overturned floating fishing vessel - this was shortly after Fukushima/tsunami. Thankfully saw it by daylight.)

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12 hours ago, estarzinger said:

oh, jud, I forgot to mention . . . you can also have 'removable' stays that are fixed/attached at the masthead, and brought back to the mast and lashed down when not in use, and tackled down somewhere forward when in use.  Our staysail stay was like that - we would bring it back to the mast when we were sailing upwind so the jib would tack thru cleanly.  There are various pros and cons vs the entirely removable ones I mention in post above.

Evans - Thanks a lot for the details (here, and your post above re: removable/hoistable stay for drifter.  Totally makes sense.

I only have the one “spare” (i.e., spinnaker) halyard at the front of the mast, so I’ll make that work.  (I need to go up the rig again tomorrow for sail measuring, so will investigate the possibility of adding a stay (for drifter) that’s “removable”.)

(Re: staysail stay...yeah, mine is permanent, and I’ve looked into a newer NZ-made release-able fitting, name escapes me now, for inner forestay - but then I’d have to deal with the aft lowers, like adding tackles to make them removable, but just don’t wanna go there :-)  Unnecessary mod.)

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On 4/5/2021 at 1:49 PM, toddster said:

Somewhere, I have seen a story about a guy who built and rigged a square sail for his (ketch?) but it has been too long to remember where.  Perhaps a thread on here?

This: http://schooner-britannia.com/squaresail.html or see Good Old Boat magazine, Nov/Dec 2015.

Roller furling square rigged sail system engineered by Roger Hughes for his 45 foot (13.7m) 1977 Down East staysail schooner BRITANNIA, converted from a ketch.  Not cheap ($4k not including a lot of labor and engineering) but I would argue it is easy to handle.  ~225 sq ft with 20 ft head, 14 ft foot, 19 ft drop.

Hughes used a 22 ft section of aluminum mast designed for in-mast furling, added a spin pole end gooseneck for a mast mount, and used a rope winch driver which normally turns the mandrel on a vertical in-mast system.  The sail is trapezoidal with a narrower foot so the leeches don't bunch up while furling. For DDW sailing you can't beat it for performance and ease of steering.

See link for full info and more photos but here are a few photos (because these forums are much better with photos):

1330705841_squaresail.jpg.eb7a3bd27b2e36ca7ecb7b661fbf120a.jpg1788667756_squaresailyard.jpg.77623ef262ed94d82837a7d36bc6f659.jpg1689101044_squaresailropewinchdriver.jpg.9b4c6fcb79b9a1ec3536d7d8ece6938e.jpg

 

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4 hours ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Evans - Thanks a lot for the details (here, and your post above re: removable/hoistable stay for drifter.  Totally makes sense.

I only have the one “spare” (i.e., spinnaker) halyard at the front of the mast, so I’ll make that work.  (I need to go up the rig again tomorrow for sail measuring, so will investigate the possibility of adding a stay (for drifter) that’s “removable”.)

(Re: staysail stay...yeah, mine is permanent, and I’ve looked into a newer NZ-made release-able fitting, name escapes me now, for inner forestay - but then I’d have to deal with the aft lowers, like adding tackles to make them removable, but just don’t wanna go there :-)  Unnecessary mod.)

A highfield lever?  I have a Harken Barbarossa tensioner and a quick pin. I'd posit that adjustable running backs are: a) Not too hard to rig and can be textile b) Do a lot to help with inner forestay tension and keeping the mast from pumping (even with a telephone pole mast section).  I haven't moved away from a wire inner forestay...yet...It's a olde timey hanked system so the sail can sit in the bag at the foot of the mast hanked on to the stay.  Many times I'm lazy and leave it rigged.  

 

I'm not sold on square riggers. I went transatlantic on on a 300' one. It was great in the trades but everywhere else. the big polish diesel got a work-out. 

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on our first trip around there was a french guy on a 40'-something steel boat that had a square yard - on what was per-say a Bermudian cutter.  He said it was not fast but was very easy.

we also had a guy on a 24' decked over life boat with a junk rig - also in the not fast but pretty easy category.  He had a quite nice engine, and was a ham radio nut - did not really mind how long passages took because he took his ham hobby with him.

all sorts of ways to get downwind - that is rarely the hard part :)  

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41 minutes ago, estarzinger said:

all sorts of ways to get downwind - that is rarely the hard part :)  

^^^This.

It's amusing to optimize for downwind in the trades but most things go happily with the wind and current. The transition zones are the hard part under sail.

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2 hours ago, Zonker said:

Christ I was just joking about the furling square sail. Never thought anyone would do it.

One of the people I used to sail with has a square-rigged boat. He can sail that thing like you wouldn't believe. We were going in opposite directions about a week back and he was making good progress to windward with the yard strapped in hard.

So while I wouldn't myself, the idea does have some merit for downwind.

We're just back from a lovely few days out ourselves. Even managed to find somewhere where the wind stayed constant in direction *and* strength for more than 30 minutes, which is truly a miracle on the Channel. All sails up, helm midships, boat tracking on rails. Lovely. Might be the last decent sail before haulout.

FKT

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I've done some downwind sailing on VALIS, a fairly heavy 44 ft cutter.  Not being particularly optimized for it, I used what I had:

Poled out genoa and main, wing and wing.  This is the most likely setup, mainly because it's easy.  I use three guys on the pole: up/fore/aft.  I use the Forespar telescoping carbon/aluminum whisker pole when it's not broken, but I a couple of times I've pushed it too hard and ripped out the extension-line attachment hardware.  I obviously don't recommend using it in heavy conditions.  If I'm not carrying the whisker pole I use a J-length CF spin pole -- usually needing to partially roller-reef the genoa. The genoa is cut a bit high because I like the visibility, but it's far from being a Yankee.

We get some rolling with this setup, especially with big seas on the quarter.  VALIS is a bit slack-bilged, so perhaps we roll more than some.  It's not too bad.

That photo Ish posted up-thread shows VALIS in this setup, but with the main 90% furled and the genoa *deeply* reefed.  If the angle had been better I might have been using the staysail (60 kt gusts), but what we had was working well enough.

If it looks like we will be going downwind for a couple of days in moderate conditions, I will consider hoisting the spare genoa in the extra groove in the headstay foil.  I've tried this two ways:

(1) Hoisting both sails simultaneously, attaching heads and tacks together.  This lets me furl the double headsail if I like, but it means a pretty messy foredeck when hoisting and lowering.

(2) Running the second genoa up the spare groove using my spare headsail halyard.  This is easier, but I need to drop the second sail before reefing the primary.

(Untried) Hoisting the second headsail with a free luff, or using the asym as the second headsail, poled out.  With the asym I probably wouldn't let it rotate forward, but instead would  have the luff as tight as I could for better stability.  Again, I haven't tried this.

I use a pole on one headsail, and run the second sail sheet through a block fastened to the end of the boom.  I haul the boom forward with a preventer and stabilize it with the mainsheet.

Valis_WingAndWing.jpg.278ac1f26cf1e3a51b6db9d458143e09.jpg
Wing and wing during the three-bridge fiasco.  When hooking up the spinnaker I discovered that a mouse had chewed up the sail for nesting material, so we ended up doing it the old-fashioned way.  Note the fully-extended whisker pole.

380-Twin-Jibs-2_jpg.jpg.34a8f0b4e777104c0961f78a45c935e2.jpg
Heading home under twin headsails, collapsed whisker-pole (I had already broken the CF spin pole during the Pac Cup race)

Usually I'm just too lazy to set up the twin headsails, but it sure is a forgiving downwind rig.

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6 hours ago, Elegua said:

A highfield lever?  I have a Harken Barbarossa tensioner and a quick pin. I'd posit that adjustable running backs are: a) Not too hard to rig and can be textile b) Do a lot to help with inner forestay tension and keeping the mast from pumping (even with a telephone pole mast section).  I haven't moved away from a wire inner forestay...yet...It's a olde timey hanked system so the sail can sit in the bag at the foot of the mast hanked on to the stay.  Many times I'm lazy and leave it rigged.  

Hooklever NZ - apparently a modernized better version of a Higjfield.

For about it, see:  https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/boating/cruising/9252871/Alvah-Simon-Those-Clever-Kiwis

and

https://swageturn.com/shop/hook-lever/ (according to this, “in fact an inner fore-stay with or without tensioner is compulsory
for New Zealand yachts going blue-water (offshore or deep sea) sailing”.   Nanny state overreach, or prudent seamanship/rig design?  You decide  :-)  :-) )

 

I mean, I could make my inner forestay removable, and make the lower backs adjustable/releasable for when the inner forestay isn’t on  - I used to lay awake at night thinking about it (kidding), but I did used to wonder if it makes sense at some point - easier tacking a big jib without, for sure.

But it seems like an unnecessary project (and unnecessary expense) - would clear up foredeck (but we don’t store a dinghy there anyway), but also allow the mast to be prevented more forward, when off the wind.  That actually occasionally sort of annoys me, those lower backs, from that perspective...

What’s the received wisdom, I wonder?  Removable inner forestay and releasable lower backs in order to clear up foredeck and allow boom to be prevented further forward when off the wind?

7E318B09-76E4-4B19-93D1-2B358DB2546D.jpeg

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10 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

in fact an inner fore-stay with or without tensioner is compulsory
for New Zealand yachts going blue-water (offshore or deep sea) sailing”.

I call bullshit on that one, first I heard of it.

Agree its a good idea but thats all.

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26 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Hooklever NZ - apparently a modernized better version of a Higjfield.

For about it, see:  https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/boating/cruising/9252871/Alvah-Simon-Those-Clever-Kiwis

and

https://swageturn.com/shop/hook-lever/ (according to this, “in fact an inner fore-stay with or without tensioner is compulsory
for New Zealand yachts going blue-water (offshore or deep sea) sailing”.   Nanny state overreach, or prudent seamanship/rig design?  You decide  :-)  :-) )

 

I mean, I could make my inner forestay removable, and make the lower backs adjustable/releasable for when the inner forestay isn’t on  - I used to lay awake at night thinking about it (kidding), but I did used to wonder if it makes sense at some point - easier tacking a big jib without, for sure.

But it seems like an unnecessary project (and unnecessary expense) - would clear up foredeck (but we don’t store a dinghy there anyway), but also allow the mast to be prevented more forward, when off the wind.  That actually occasionally sort of annoys me, those lower backs, from that perspective...

What’s the received wisdom, I wonder?  Removable inner forestay and releasable lower backs in order to clear up foredeck and allow boom to be prevented further forward when off the wind?

7E318B09-76E4-4B19-93D1-2B358DB2546D.jpeg

Nice kit. Elegant. For what it's worth, I've never seen a highfield lever break and there are more modern options from Wichard.  By my thinking you only need it moved if you need to do more than an occasional furl-a-tack with the genoa and If I'm doing that, I'm usually already using the staysail.  But, I am happy to have the runners to keep things from wobbling around and it's nice to get them out of the way when going DW. 

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Permanent "lower backs" (support inner headstay) have such a vertical angle they do very little to tension the inner forestay. Much, much better to change to running backs that lead as far aft as possible. This will let you get some real tension on the stsl. and allow for the release lever.

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11 hours ago, Elegua said:

Nice kit. Elegant. For what it's worth, I've never seen a highfield lever break and there are more modern options from Wichard.  

just as an aside . . .we broke two of the biggest wichard ones. They were really lovely units when they worked but the top end of their sizing chart was hmmm 'generous'. 

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1 hour ago, estarzinger said:

just as an aside . . .we broke two of the biggest wichard ones. They were really lovely units when they worked but the top end of their sizing chart was hmmm 'generous'. 

I recall you writing that. I put it down to you driving upwind with a 47' boat with high RM and a genoa staysail.  I would guess the shock loading would be quite high.

For smaller boats it might be enough to oversize? I was thinking about a replacement for my Harken B1722 with the handles when it dies, (which I hope to postpone as long as I can).   I was thinking of switching to a textile stay to make storage simpler and was steered away by the riggers who said it would be a lot of high load gear to get it tensioned properly when I had something simple and robust. As it is, if the runners are not rigged, I can easily pull the mast out of column, take all the tension out of the forestay and start pulling up the aft lowers without much effort, (a part of the "learning" process - I was trying to get both stays tensioned to my satisfaction without thinking clearly about what I was doing). 

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33 minutes ago, robtoujours said:

Cheap option: poled out headsail

DIY option: twizzle rig

expensive option: parasailor or wingaker 

Ultimate DIY option: convert to junk rig 

Ultimate free option: the Rimas rig.

selfflop.jpg

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On 4/7/2021 at 7:30 PM, longy said:

Permanent "lower backs" (support inner headstay) have such a vertical angle they do very little to tension the inner forestay. Much, much better to change to running backs that lead as far aft as possible. This will let you get some real tension on the stsl. and allow for the release lever.

Ok, this got me thinking - I’ve often been wondering about my inner forestay since, indeed, it can make tacking the big Genoa a pain.  Which is why I started looking into a removable stay (like Hooklever NZ, above), but have never done anything about it (not really a priority).

I asked a rigger about it and, without seeing my boat, they said, well, your lower backs would probably need to be slacked off (example: convert them to Spectra with block/tackle?) in order to make inner forestay removable.  Again, this is without seeing my boat.

But, as you wrote above, “Permanent "lower backs" (support inner headstay) have such a vertical angle they do very little to tension the inner forestay” - and mine do indeed have a pretty vertical angle so apparently do little...?

Does this mean/suggest that my inner stay might indeed be able to be made removable without needing to fiddle/worry much about the lower backs?  I.e., check with a rigger and then simply make inner forestay removable?

I’ve no interest in running backs, etc. rigging complexity- but I wouldn’t mind making my inner forestay removable to clear up the foredeck.  

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All depends on how tight an inner h/s you want when actually using the sail. If the stsl gets used to go upwind, stay needs more tension then the lever can overcome. If just reaching, more sag is OK, lever will work. Strong suggestion - have a tie line permanently attached to the lever to tie the safety ring down (safe position). Sheets dragging across the front of these levers have been known to release them 

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