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Colorado Citizens - Not allowed to fix your own stuff.


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Is anyone surprised that the "Colorado House of Business Affairs & Labor committee" voted that citizens don't have the right to repair the things they own or buy?  Because...... cellphones might explode?  Can you imagine if this same hand waving came to automobiles?  Oh wait - it already is.  Proprietary diagnostic systems and communication systems have increasingly restricted the ability of independent mechanics to repair our increasingly sophisticated vehicles.

And while the auto repair industry has been established for decades, it's getting tougher for mechanics outside the automakers to fix cars.  And outside of cars, it's slowly becoming impossible for repair shops to fix other items.

If you're not familiar with what's going on, consider this.  Apple (and John fucking Deer Tractors) electrically serialize components so if you need to replace, say, a screen, you can't.  You need special software tools to modify the phone's software to so that it agrees you're using an Apple "approved" part.

Fuck me.  This comes down to 100% lobbying by big business.  But the idea that *repair shops* aren't smart or safe enough to repair something like a cell phone is insane.  What's even more insane is that our politicians expect us to accept it.  We can fucking OWN and REPAIR FIREARMS, but cellphones?  Fuck no.

John Deere Tractors:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-03-05/farmers-fight-john-deere-over-who-gets-to-fix-an-800-000-tractor

Automakers:

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/02/you-gotta-fight-for-your-right-to-repair-your-car/283791/

Colorado failing its citizens:

https://www.vice.com/en/article/wx8w7b/colorado-denied-its-citizens-the-right-to-repair-after-riveting-testimony

A right-to-repair bill died in the Colorado state legislature on March 25, 2021. After almost three hours of testimony from business leaders, disabled advocates, and a 9-year-old activist, legislators said there were too many unanswered questions and that the proposed law was too broad. Motherboard reports:Colorado's proposed right-to-repair law was simple and clear. At 11 pages, the legislation spent most of its word count defining terms, but the gist was simple: It would let people fix their own stuff without needing to resort to the manufacturer and force said manufacturer to support people who want to fix stuff. "For the purpose of providing services for digital electronic equipment sold or used in this state, an original equipment manufacturer shall, with fair and reasonable terms and cost, make available to an independent repair provider or owner of the manufacturer's equipment any documentation, parts, embedded software, firmware, or tools that are intended for use with the digital electronic equipment, including updates to documentation, information, or embedded software," the proposed bill said.

The Colorado House Business Affairs & Labor committee met to consider the law on March 25. Twelve legislators voted to indefinitely postpone considering the bill. Only one voted for it. 

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While phones and computers should be the Automotive and farm stuff have come under crazy pressure by government to keep there systems CLOSED to prevent emissions hacking 

The government is raiding and fining independent automotive shops and part makers with a large footprint and working there way to small ones 

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9 minutes ago, tommays said:

While phones and computers should be the Automotive and farm stuff have come under crazy pressure by government to keep there systems CLOSED to prevent emissions hacking 

The government is raiding and fining independent automotive shops and part makers with a large footprint and working there way to small ones 

Every so often the state here does a crackdown on emissions tests for annual vehicle inspections. Because catalytic converters go bad and are expensive to replace, a lot of older cars have had their catalytic converters icepicked and then given an emissions test "pass."

Because the state mandates a price for inspections, it's not a high profit job for shops to do; when a bunch of shops are shut out of doing inspections, it's a PITA for the people in that town.

- DSK

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13 minutes ago, tommays said:

While phones and computers should be the Automotive and farm stuff have come under crazy pressure by government to keep there systems CLOSED to prevent emissions hacking 

The government is raiding and fining independent automotive shops and part makers with a large footprint and working there way to small ones 

Yeah.  It's the thought-police.  We're going to fuck you over in advance because you MIGHT do something wrong.  Rather than going after the people who DO something wrong.

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Reminds me of Oregon (?) that for decades wouldn't allow car owners to pump their own gas? Or Gnu Yawk Shitty, where apartment, condo & homeowners couldn't install their own garbage disposals...but had to pay a licensed plumber to do it for them?.....

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This should help explain all things in Colorado.

How Lauren Boebert rose from unknown to a candidate for Congress to someone  in Donald Trump's orbit

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1 minute ago, Keith said:

This should help explain all things in Colorado.

How Lauren Boebert rose from unknown to a candidate for Congress to someone  in Donald Trump's orbit

You would think that states with populations who believe in personal responsibility and gun ownership would be all for their right to fix their own shit.  You would think.

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16 minutes ago, Keith said:

This should help explain all things in Colorado.

How Lauren Boebert rose from unknown to a candidate for Congress to someone  in Donald Trump's orbit

The only thing wrong with that photo......is that I'm not in it. Holy fukoly, talk about fuking hot!.....:lol:

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No manufacturer is prohibiting self repair of products. You are free (have rights) to repair, or crush, that John Deere tractor. The manufacturers have simply figured it is in their best interest to not provide training, manuals, parts warehouses, and infinite phone support to a bunch of hackers. These things are not the same as 1955 Ford trucks.

...and...why do Americans want to pump their own gasoline? Crazy.Seems like the (MAGA!) good old days when we would simply roll up to the pump and flash the Chevron card.

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4 hours ago, tommays said:

While phones and computers should be the Automotive and farm stuff have come under crazy pressure by government to keep there systems CLOSED to prevent emissions hacking 

The government is raiding and fining independent automotive shops and part makers with a large footprint and working there way to small ones 

Yeah, nah. Emissions hacking is done by vehicle manufacturers in order to 'comply' with regulations at a lower manufacturing cost. People are going to jail for that. As for owners, some morans hack their trucks in order to increase pollution. It's called rolling coal.

image.png.0e9d71174bfef21b0d43ed01a868a71d.png

However, it is ... inefficient, mindfuckingly inefficient which is its point. Farmer Joe is not going to waste money on this and it's a weird argument to make. Some people chip their rice cars in order to increase performance. Again, Farmer Joe isn't going to do that. What FJ wants to do is fix his tractor.

If you're worried about emissions, pass an emissions law.

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12 minutes ago, hobie1616 said:

Bring back carburetors and distributors with points inside of them.

Been doing my part, Brah.....

20210321_182119~3.jpg

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47 minutes ago, Snaggletooth said:
1 hour ago, El Mariachi said:

The only thing wrong with that photo......is that I'm not in it. Holy fukoly, talk about fuking hot!.....:lol:

Issent that tattoo portraite of youon herre legge?

That's her brother

El M should go hang out at a Boebert family reunion if he think she's hot. It'd be a sure thang

- DSK

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2 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

That's her brother

El M should go hang out at a Boebert family reunion if he think she's hot. It'd be a sure thang

- DSK

Is he really aiming at the rat-faced girl, or one of the heifers either side?

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1 hour ago, El Mariachi said:

Holy fukoly, talk about fuking hot!..

Gunz are not "hot", 

except to those Gunz Humpers I guess. 

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18 minutes ago, Ishmael said:
21 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

That's her brother

El M should go hang out at a Boebert family reunion if he think she's hot. It'd be a sure thang

- DSK

Is he really aiming at the rat-faced girl, or one of the heifers either side?

bull-animal-strong-power-matador-hand-dr

 

The olde bulle saide to the younger bulle "lettes walkon overe theire and fucke them alle!"

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1 hour ago, Olsonist said:

Yeah, nah. Emissions hacking is done by vehicle manufacturers in order to 'comply' with regulations at a lower manufacturing cost. People are going to jail for that. As for owners, some morans hack their trucks in order to increase pollution. It's called rolling coal.

image.png.0e9d71174bfef21b0d43ed01a868a71d.png

However, it is ... inefficient, mindfuckingly inefficient which is its point. Farmer Joe is not going to waste money on this and it's a weird argument to make. Some people chip their rice cars in order to increase performance. Again, Farmer Joe isn't going to do that. What FJ wants to do is fix his tractor.

If you're worried about emissions, pass an emissions law.

The diesel tuners get the headlines BUT the EPA has declared war on anyone making any kind of change to new cars ,leaving the emissions system in place and functional is no longer enough they want  certification similar to a CARB sticker that’s required in California

 

SEMA also has a testing and certification lab BUT this shuts down every smaller vendor even if the emissions system is in tact and functional while this is still in court if the EPA wins smaller shops may not be able to do repairs as even and aftermarket catalytic converter or other motor parts would have to be certified for EVERY different vehicle 

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1 hour ago, tommays said:

The diesel tuners get the headlines BUT the EPA has declared war on anyone making any kind of change to new cars ,leaving the emissions system in place and functional is no longer enough they want  certification similar to a CARB sticker that’s required in California

 

SEMA also has a testing and certification lab BUT this shuts down every smaller vendor even if the emissions system is in tact and functional while this is still in court if the EPA wins smaller shops may not be able to do repairs as even and aftermarket catalytic converter or other motor parts would have to be certified for EVERY different vehicle 

Sounds great. So if the EPA is already on the job with respect to emissions then self repair is not a problem. Farmer Joe can repair his tractor as long as he doesn't violate the EPA restrictions. This is too much enforcement for not enough of a problem.

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1 hour ago, Olsonist said:

Sounds great. So if the EPA is already on the job with respect to emissions then self repair is not a problem. Farmer Joe can repair his tractor as long as he doesn't violate the EPA restrictions. This is too much enforcement for not enough of a problem.

No farmer joe won’t be able to there looking to have everything done in a certified facility (Dealer or other deep pocket facility)

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My BIL has a big farm with big new machinery. A combine is over $1 Mil these days and they aren't going to take that into the shop. There is no way they are going to touch that machine themselves, a tech comes out and fixes it in the field.

If it's a John Deere riding mower, that's overreach.

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8 hours ago, El Borracho said:

No manufacturer is prohibiting self repair of products. You are free (have rights) to repair, or crush, that John Deere tractor. The manufacturers have simply figured it is in their best interest to not provide training, manuals, parts warehouses, and infinite phone support to a bunch of hackers. These things are not the same as 1955 Ford trucks.

John Deere is actively impairing owner's ability to repair their own vehicles by not releasing information required to do just that.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/v7m8mx/john-deere-promised-farmers-it-would-make-tractors-easy-to-repair-it-lied

"In September 2018, a trade group that represents John Deere and a series of other tractor and agricultural equipment manufacturers made a promise intended to stave off increasing pressure from their customers and to prevent lawmakers from passing what they said would be onerous repair regulations. They vowed that, starting January 1, 2021, Deere and other tractor manufacturers would make repair tools, software, and diagnostics available to the masses."

"Posing as a customer, O'Reilly called 12 John Deere dealerships in six states: "Of those, 11 told me that they don't sell diagnostic software and the last one gave me an email of someone to ask for the tools. I sent an email two days ago and haven't heard anything back." Motherboard called nine dealerships in seven states and was told by representatives there that the things promised by manufacturers are not available. We tried three in California; two said no immediately, a third offered to help. "We don't sell those parts to the public," one said. "You have to be a licensed dealer, we're not allowed to sell them to anyone," another said."

 

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8 minutes ago, Zonker said:

John Deere is actively impairing owner's ability to repair their own vehicles by not releasing information required to do just that.

Why not? Seems like it could be a valid business decision. They have a dominate position from which to abuse the customer and enrich the shareholders. I'd never assume the boardroom gives a shit about customers...witness GM, ATT, AA... Personally, I would take that into account when making a purchase decision. If they hold a monopoly in the market (seems likely) then they should be severely busted up by the feds. That would be far better than creating a entire world of repair laws, regulations and bureaus.

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Yet the law proposed in Colorado was 11 pages, most of which was definitions. Not much of a world.

Independent repair shots can't repair a JD tractor right now because the lack of software, etc.

What if car manufacturers, who have a lot of political clout, stop selling access to wiring diagrams, service manuals etc. You then HAVE to go to their dealer to get your car fixed. This is what JD is effectively doing.

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10 hours ago, El Borracho said:

No manufacturer is prohibiting self repair of products. You are free (have rights) to repair, or crush, that John Deere tractor. The manufacturers have simply figured it is in their best interest to not provide training, manuals, parts warehouses, and infinite phone support to a bunch of hackers. These things are not the same as 1955 Ford trucks.

...and...why do Americans want to pump their own gasoline? Crazy.Seems like the (MAGA!) good old days when we would simply roll up to the pump and flash the Chevron card.

There is actually a Federal law that somewhat gurantees the rights of small shops, independents and shade-tree mechanics to do their own work, it's the Magnuson-Moss Act ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson–Moss_Warranty_Act

It saved my dad's business back in the 1980s and 1990s. He owned a small spark plug manufacturing company in Denver, special high performance plugs, sold worldwide, his customers put them in new vehicles. Eventually the factory service managers claimed they voided the warranty. He had a law firm assert the Magnuson-Moss Act, and the dealerships finally backed down.

These fuckers get the idea that they still own the product even after they sell it to their customers. Not just cars, as the OP noted, it's rampant in the computer business too.

 

One aside ... people bad-mouth Harbor Freight tools, but the owner of that company has never followed that closed-market bullshit. Every Harbor Freight tool either comes with a full parts diagram and schematic, or it's available from them if they don't include it, and they'll send you any replacement part for their tool under warranty, or they'll sell it to you if it's out of warranty. Yeah, they manufacture in China, but at least they don't lock away the supply chain.

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26 minutes ago, mikewof said:

There is actually a Federal law that somewhat gurantees the rights of small shops, independents and shade-tree mechanics to do their own work, it's the Magnuson-Moss Act ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson–Moss_Warranty_Act

It saved my dad's business back in the 1980s and 1990s. He owned a small spark plug manufacturing company in Denver, special high performance plugs, sold worldwide, his customers put them in new vehicles. Eventually the factory service managers claimed they voided the warranty. He had a law firm assert the Magnuson-Moss Act, and the dealerships finally backed down.

These fuckers get the idea that they still own the product even after they sell it to their customers. Not just cars, as the OP noted, it's rampant in the computer business too.

 

One aside ... people bad-mouth Harbor Freight tools, but the owner of that company has never followed that closed-market bullshit. Every Harbor Freight tool either comes with a full parts diagram and schematic, or it's available from them if they don't include it, and they'll send you any replacement part for their tool under warranty, or they'll sell it to you if it's out of warranty. Yeah, they manufacture in China, but at least they don't lock away the supply chain.

Check out the recent H/F recall on their jack stands. If'n you'd like to keep all of your body parts-----attached to your body.....

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6 minutes ago, El Mariachi said:

Check out the recent H/F recall on their jack stands. If'n you'd like to keep all of your body parts.....

I use the same beat up jack stands from Monkey Wards that I've used since I was 14. They haven't failed me yet.

I used to get stressed over my jack stands, now when I'm under the fucker, I shove the wheels under the hard points, and keep the floor jack engaged just in case.

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Just now, mikewof said:

I use the same beat up jack stands from Monkey Wards that I've used since I was 14. They haven't failed me yet.

I used to get stressed over my jack stands, now I shove the wheels under the hard points, and keep the floor jack engaged just in case, when I'm under the fucker.

I'm referring to a one or two year run of defective j-stands that hit the news late last year. The recall includes the model numbers affected. Please let all of your palm tree shaded mechanic friends know.....

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12 minutes ago, El Mariachi said:

I'm referring to a one or two year run of defective j-stands that hit the news late last year. The recall includes the model numbers affected. Please let all of your palm tree shaded mechanic friends know.....

Understood, they had some shitty Chinese welds on some shitty-designed jack stands ...

BB15pfXN.img?h=533&w=799&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=

The design looks kind of sus. The time tested jack stand has the triangle welded to the jack tube ...

f7429053936540c7a2513f60c30b6582.jpg

Though even those expensive Snap-ons have that dumb ratchet, I trust a lock-pin made of cold-pressed tool steel, like my old Monkey Ward stands. Simple.

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8 hours ago, Senator Seditious Maximus said:

Hell in Oregon it's been illegal to shove a gas nozzle into your own tank hole for 50 years.  The only 1 of 50 states.  Tree huggers claim it save the environment.  Labor claim it saves job (gas attendant?).  I say it's gubiment run amuck!

Nah, the peoples republic of New Jersey will not allow you to pump your own gas

- DSK

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5 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Nah, the peoples republic of New Jersey will not allow you to pump your own gas

- DSK

It was allowed in NYC back in the day, but the only way the gas stations could stay in business with NYC land prices was to not have any self-service pumps, and just offer only full-service, which was about 40% more per gallon, and it was allowed by NYC. I think by Federal rules, they had to show the self-service per gallon price, but they didn't have to actually offer any self-service gas. I remember that the attendants wouldn't touch a motorcycle, and were gracious enough to let me pump my own gas into whatever bike I happened to have at that the time, even though I still had to pay full-service price.

All of this may be different now.

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On 4/6/2021 at 10:14 AM, El Mariachi said:

The only thing wrong with that photo......is that I'm not in it. Holy fukoly, talk about fuking hot!.....:lol:

She may be right up your alley Boothy.....  Gunz, Owns a bar, and is a narcissistic cunt who ran unopposed.  Grifter to the max...  You two would get along great....  

 

Nursetta + Bobert behind the dumpsters after school... Pay per view that bitch...  LOL

 

 

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On 4/7/2021 at 2:14 AM, El Mariachi said:

The only thing wrong with that photo......is that I'm not in it. Holy fukoly, talk about fuking hot!.....:lol:

They look pretty trashy to me.  I would have predicted they would suit you though Boothy.

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On 4/6/2021 at 8:44 PM, Ishmael said:

My BIL has a big farm with big new machinery. A combine is over $1 Mil these days and they aren't going to take that into the shop. There is no way they are going to touch that machine themselves, a tech comes out and fixes it in the field.

If it's a John Deere riding mower, that's overreach.

Hold on.  Are you taking the standpoint that people shouldn't be able to fix their own machines themselves?

You may not want to fix it yourself.  I certainly don't fix much on my cars anymore.  But if I want to, I should have every right, *and the ability*, to fix it.  Not to mention that allowing manufacturers to lock millions of small business owners will depress the middle class in the US even more.

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On 4/6/2021 at 12:23 PM, Olsonist said:

Yeah, nah. Emissions hacking is done by vehicle manufacturers in order to 'comply' with regulations at a lower manufacturing cost. People are going to jail for that. As for owners, some morans hack their trucks in order to increase pollution. It's called rolling coal.

image.png.0e9d71174bfef21b0d43ed01a868a71d.png

However, it is ... inefficient, mindfuckingly inefficient which is its point. Farmer Joe is not going to waste money on this and it's a weird argument to make. Some people chip their rice cars in order to increase performance. Again, Farmer Joe isn't going to do that. What FJ wants to do is fix his tractor.

If you're worried about emissions, pass an emissions law.

I chipped my vehicle.  Not because I hate the planet, but because a 3.5L twin turbo that started around 350 horsepower and ended up with 400+ is pretty fun to drive.  Also changed the shift points so it slams into gear.  0-60 went from 6.2 to 5.9.  That's bordering on what my old camaro Z-28 could do!  It actually increased the MPG (but that doesn't equate to emissions).  It is a gasoline vehicle, I don't have nearly the particulate problem that diesels do.  I doubt it changed my emissions much at all.

And people still drop jaws when a mid size SUV spins all 4 tires leaving a stoplight :lol:.

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24 minutes ago, Grrr... said:

0-60 went from 6.2 to 5.9.  That's bordering on what my old camaro Z-28 could do!  It actually increased the MPG (but that doesn't equate to emissions).  It is a gasoline vehicle, I don't have nearly the particulate problem that diesels do.  I doubt it changed my emissions much at all.

And people still drop jaws when a mid size SUV spins all 4 tires leaving a stoplight

tenor.gif

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1 hour ago, Grrr... said:

I chipped my vehicle.  Not because I hate the planet, but because a 3.5L twin turbo that started around 350 horsepower and ended up with 400+ is pretty fun to drive.  Also changed the shift points so it slams into gear.  0-60 went from 6.2 to 5.9.  That's bordering on what my old camaro Z-28 could do!  It actually increased the MPG (but that doesn't equate to emissions).  It is a gasoline vehicle, I don't have nearly the particulate problem that diesels do.  I doubt it changed my emissions much at all.

And people still drop jaws when a mid size SUV spins all 4 tires leaving a stoplight :lol:.

intrigued...  What ya got??  

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52 minutes ago, shaggy said:

intrigued...  What ya got??  

2016 Sport Edge.  Shown here after reflashing.

Had it up to 158 on a test track :ph34r:

Flashing tool:

https://www.livernoismotorsports.com/product/LPP631133

I added another option to get it up to 400, but the motor is darn close to stock.  Below is the horsepower and torque of a stock tune versus the new tune with no other modification.

edge_sport.PNG

Here's what gets you up over 400 on the horsepower.  But I don't hit that button very often!  Either way , 30% gains just by flashing it!

 

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We are moving towards more of a license to use model than an ownership model. These are just more examples of that. People don't buy music albums any more, they buy the right to listen to a piece of music. The phone you carry? You might technically own the hardware, but the manufacturer can render it into a useless brick if they choose to. What you really bought was a license for the underlying OS and IP which runs the phone, and gets delivered through the hardware you hold. This is one of those cases where I think the arguments over the merits of ownership and control are not terribly relevant to the long term trends, shit becomes obsolete so fast that ownership is not terribly important, the use rights are what count and I don't think that trend ends any time soon. If we lean into it instead of fight it, the trend could be useful in helping to deal with environmental issues since you can create true closed loop systems for recycling. It is already happening in clothing 

For Days | Organic, Zero-Waste Basics

You don't buy a shirt, you buy a subscription to a shirt. The manufacturer essentially owns the shirt and the responsibility for it's full lifecycle, which can help keep stuff out of landfills. 

It is a very different paradigm than we have lived with for the past few centuries. Not everyone will embrace it, but I don't think there is a lot that would stop it. It goes beyond just regulation, there are market forces driving a lot of this beyond what govt may or may not do. 

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2 minutes ago, LenP said:

We are moving towards more of a license to use model than an ownership model. These are just more examples of that. People don't buy music albums any more, they buy the right to listen to a piece of music. The phone you carry? You might technically own the hardware, but the manufacturer can render it into a useless brick if they choose to. What you really bought was a license for the underlying OS and IP which runs the phone, and gets delivered through the hardware you hold. This is one of those cases where I think the arguments over the merits of ownership and control are not terribly relevant to the long term trends, shit becomes obsolete so fast that ownership is not terribly important, the use rights are what count and I don't think that trend ends any time soon. If we lean into it instead of fight it, the trend could be useful in helping to deal with environmental issues since you can create true closed loop systems for recycling. It is already happening in clothing 

For Days | Organic, Zero-Waste Basics

You don't buy a shirt, you buy a subscription to a shirt. The manufacturer essentially owns the shirt and the responsibility for it's full lifecycle, which can help keep stuff out of landfills. 

It is a very different paradigm than we have lived with for the past few centuries. Not everyone will embrace it, but I don't think there is a lot that would stop it. It goes beyond just regulation, there are market forces driving a lot of this beyond what govt may or may not do. 

That's why clear legislation needs to be in place that allows us to fix our own shit.  The idea that the manufacturer owns the IP needs to be balanced against the end users rights.

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39 minutes ago, Grrr... said:

That's why clear legislation needs to be in place that allows us to fix our own shit.  The idea that the manufacturer owns the IP needs to be balanced against the end users rights.

Not going to happen. Companies like John Deere will switch to a lease scheme. And the underground repair people won't care. Kiosks in Asian shopping malls repair any smartphone without any manufacturer support whatsoever. Maybe these whiners here simply lack the necessary talent?

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Yet sadly, the next morning......you wake up with a fugly Ford Edge in your driveway. Kinda like waking up to Amy Shumer. Ugh.

 

Remember, Kids....life's too short to die in an ugly car. Just ask James Dean, Jayne Mansfield and that Fast & Furious guy......:lol:

20210321_182119~3.jpg

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2 minutes ago, El Mariachi said:

Yet sadly, the next morning......you wake up with a fugly Ford Edge in your driveway. Kinda like waking up to Amy Shumer. Ugh.

 

Remember, Kids....life's too short to die in an ugly car. Just ask James Dean, Jayne Mansfield and that Fast & Furious guy......:lol:

 

I actually always liked the edge styling.  It's not a new Corvette or Ferrari, but for a grocery getter it makes me happy.

 

image.png.a131c4fe9fdfee5d0dbe408e5b51c57f.png

However, some people and their choices leave me very confused.  A brush guard on an edge?  You'd have time convincing me there's anything you could do to make this thing off-road ready.

image.png.ee659476032e5fb1b8454ae06fc2f95c.png

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7 minutes ago, Grrr... said:

I actually always liked the edge styling.  It's not a new Corvette or Ferrari, but for a grocery getter it makes me happy.

 

image.png.a131c4fe9fdfee5d0dbe408e5b51c57f.png

However, some people and their choices leave me very confused.  A brush guard on an edge?  You'd have time convincing me there's anything you could do to make this thing off-road ready.

image.png.ee659476032e5fb1b8454ae06fc2f95c.png

Wow, You are getting Trailhawk HP out of a 5 yo edge.  Nice...  did chipping it affect the warranty??  

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3 hours ago, Grrr... said:

Hold on.  Are you taking the standpoint that people shouldn't be able to fix their own machines themselves?

You may not want to fix it yourself.  I certainly don't fix much on my cars anymore.  But if I want to, I should have every right, *and the ability*, to fix it.  Not to mention that allowing manufacturers to lock millions of small business owners will depress the middle class in the US even more.

No, I gladly fix everything I possibly can myself and everyone should have that option if they want. I was just making a point that some of the newer machinery out there will be instantly out of warranty if someone other than an approved mechanic fucks with it. Also, my BIL is not the greatest mechanic to start with...

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37 minutes ago, Grrr... said:

I actually always liked the edge styling.  It's not a new Corvette or Ferrari, but for a grocery getter it makes me happy.

 

image.png.a131c4fe9fdfee5d0dbe408e5b51c57f.png

However, some people and their choices leave me very confused.  A brush guard on an edge?  You'd have time convincing me there's anything you could do to make this thing off-road ready.

image.png.ee659476032e5fb1b8454ae06fc2f95c.png

Check out this F/B page. You'd be frickin' AMAZED at what some of these guys have done.....:lol:

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/safariallthecars/?ref=share

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On 4/6/2021 at 4:34 AM, Grrr... said:

Is anyone surprised that the "Colorado House of Business Affairs & Labor committee" voted that citizens don't have the right to repair the things they own or buy?  Because...... cellphones might explode?  Can you imagine if this same hand waving came to automobiles?  Oh wait - it already is.  Proprietary diagnostic systems and communication systems have increasingly restricted the ability of independent mechanics to repair our increasingly sophisticated vehicles.

And while the auto repair industry has been established for decades, it's getting tougher for mechanics outside the automakers to fix cars.  And outside of cars, it's slowly becoming impossible for repair shops to fix other items.

If you're not familiar with what's going on, consider this.  Apple (and John fucking Deer Tractors) electrically serialize components so if you need to replace, say, a screen, you can't.  You need special software tools to modify the phone's software to so that it agrees you're using an Apple "approved" part.

Fuck me.  This comes down to 100% lobbying by big business.  But the idea that *repair shops* aren't smart or safe enough to repair something like a cell phone is insane.  What's even more insane is that our politicians expect us to accept it.  We can fucking OWN and REPAIR FIREARMS, but cellphones?  Fuck no.

John Deere Tractors:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-03-05/farmers-fight-john-deere-over-who-gets-to-fix-an-800-000-tractor

Automakers:

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/02/you-gotta-fight-for-your-right-to-repair-your-car/283791/

Colorado failing its citizens:

https://www.vice.com/en/article/wx8w7b/colorado-denied-its-citizens-the-right-to-repair-after-riveting-testimony

A right-to-repair bill died in the Colorado state legislature on March 25, 2021. After almost three hours of testimony from business leaders, disabled advocates, and a 9-year-old activist, legislators said there were too many unanswered questions and that the proposed law was too broad. Motherboard reports:Colorado's proposed right-to-repair law was simple and clear. At 11 pages, the legislation spent most of its word count defining terms, but the gist was simple: It would let people fix their own stuff without needing to resort to the manufacturer and force said manufacturer to support people who want to fix stuff. "For the purpose of providing services for digital electronic equipment sold or used in this state, an original equipment manufacturer shall, with fair and reasonable terms and cost, make available to an independent repair provider or owner of the manufacturer's equipment any documentation, parts, embedded software, firmware, or tools that are intended for use with the digital electronic equipment, including updates to documentation, information, or embedded software," the proposed bill said.

The Colorado House Business Affairs & Labor committee met to consider the law on March 25. Twelve legislators voted to indefinitely postpone considering the bill. Only one voted for it. 

Welcome to the ever increasing Nanny state.

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On 4/6/2021 at 5:12 AM, Grrr... said:

Yeah.  It's the thought-police.  We're going to fuck you over in advance because you MIGHT do something wrong.  Rather than going after the people who DO something wrong.

Sounds like you've nailed the gun control mentality to a fucking Tee!

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1 hour ago, Grrr... said:

I actually always liked the edge styling.  It's not a new Corvette or Ferrari, but for a grocery getter it makes me happy.

 

image.png.a131c4fe9fdfee5d0dbe408e5b51c57f.png

However, some people and their choices leave me very confused.  A brush guard on an edge?  You'd have time convincing me there's anything you could do to make this thing off-road ready.

image.png.ee659476032e5fb1b8454ae06fc2f95c.png

Funny story..... I had an all wheel drive Ford Edge Sport in the UAE.  Great car, fast enough for what I wanted.  Able to haul dive gear and 4 people to dive sites on weekends.  Not too big to be a land yacht.  One day SWMBO and I were on the way to Oman for a weekend of diving.  There was a crash on the major highway miles and miles up ahead that stopped traffic cold and was likely to be that way for hours.  The crash was a good 10 miles+ up ahead and we were literally going to miss the boat if we had waited.  I jumped on the googles and looked at maps to see if there was a way out or around the crash.  About a couple of miles ahead, there looked to be a side road off the interstate that would then eventually connect to another road that would eventually get me onto a connector road to get to our destination.  It was not a shortcut, but it was not much longer than the normal way.  

Anywho.... she said fuck it, go for it and off we went.  We ran down the right shoulder for a couple of miles and found the small road off the highway as expected, followed it for a while and we thought we were home free.  The small hardball road suddenly turned into sand.  But the map still showed a road.  It was fairly hardpacked (ish) and it was obvious it was well used.  We took a vote again and said fuck it - and kept going.  The sand was getting softer but the AWD was handling it fine as long as we kept up some momentum.  Oh BTW did I mention it was 115F outside?  We kept going up and over sand dunes and getting strange looks from all the locals in their land cruisers and such as we went by.  I'm sure they were thinking WTF are these dumbass gringos doing??  We started to climb this one long dune and the transmission temp light came on.  Crap......  But there was no turning back at this point.  We almost made it to the top when the AWD kicked off due to the temp and it went into 2WD.  Literally as soon as that warning came on, we stopped and sunk into the sand.  We get out and are looking dejected at not only getting the car stuck but missing the dive trip that we had been looking forward to for a while.  We sat there for about 20 min when a super nice older arab guy comes along and stops.  I've got the hood open trying to cool the engine off.  He shakes his head and smiles at the dumbass white people in their NON-off road car.  He doesn't speak a word of english and my arabic extends to pretty much hello and thank you.  He takes over and deflates the tires, and then has me rock it out of the sand.  By now the AWD has come back on and we get it out with less hassle than I expected.  He pantomines how to get out of the desert, essentially go back the way I came and take a right before I get back on the original hardtop road.  Sure enough we get out and get back on our detour.  The dive company holds the boat for us for about an hour and we make it and have a great weekend.  That was my last off road excursion in Edge.  

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5 hours ago, Grrr... said:

I chipped my vehicle.  

...

And people still drop jaws when a mid size SUV spins all 4 tires leaving a stoplight :lol:.

Yeah, I remember when I was 18 too.

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3 hours ago, shaggy said:

Wow, You are getting Trailhawk HP out of a 5 yo edge.  Nice...  did chipping it affect the warranty??  

A push of a button returns it to stock.

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1 hour ago, bhyde said:

Yeah, I remember when I was 18 too.

LOL.  You don't stop living just because you aren't a teenager any more.  I had a drag race (up to the speed limit) with my 84 year old father in law.  He won.

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3 hours ago, Olsonist said:

Does it still pass emissions? It would surprise me if it didn't.

Emissions tests are not required in Michigan.  However, the vendor claims it does.  50-state legal CARB EO D-752-A14

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I launch the S at freeway on-ramps occasionally but otherwise meh. In fact, I use traffic aware cruise control a LOT. It's more aware and faster than I am or anyone is. I learned to drive with a stick on San Francisco hills. I used to revel in the control. My Benz cured me of that. Now with electrics (hybrids as well), fuck all that. CVT. What was I thinking?

BTW, whenever I hear the growl of some hemi I think what an idiot.

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43 minutes ago, Olsonist said:

I launch the S at freeway on-ramps occasionally but otherwise meh. In fact, I use traffic aware cruise control a LOT. It's more aware and faster than I am or anyone is. I learned to drive with a stick on San Francisco hills. I used to revel in the control. My Benz cured me of that. Now with electrics (hybrids as well), fuck all that. CVT. What was I thinking?

BTW, whenever I hear the growl of some hemi I think what an idiot.

That's fine.  I'm sure other shallow people look at things you do and think you're an idiot too.

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19 hours ago, LenP said:

For Days | Organic, Zero-Waste Basics

You don't buy a shirt, you buy a subscription to a shirt. The manufacturer essentially owns the shirt and the responsibility for it's full lifecycle, which can help keep stuff out of landfills. 

What if the life cycle of the shirt includes some time as a boat maintenance rag?

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3 hours ago, Shambolic Tom said:

What if the life cycle of the shirt includes some time as a boat maintenance rag?

Pretty sure that you could still return for a new one, but you might want to read the fine print. 

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4 hours ago, Shambolic Tom said:
On 4/8/2021 at 9:51 AM, LenP said:

For Days | Organic, Zero-Waste Basics

You don't buy a shirt, you buy a subscription to a shirt. The manufacturer essentially owns the shirt and the responsibility for it's full lifecycle, which can help keep stuff out of landfills. 

What if the life cycle of the shirt includes some time as a boat maintenance rag?

That would almost certainly void the disposal agreement.

You wanna get rid of it on your own, feel free.

One of the things I already knew, sorta, but have learned more certainly and with emphasis, from my youth sailors.... you cannot "throw stuff away"

There is no "away"

In world with few people and lots of wilderness, nobody notices when you toss trash in the ditch. Unfortunately for some, that world is gone, replaced by a crowded one with increasingly scarce natural resources. "Throwing away" an oily rag is likely to be viewed by most as throwing that oily rag into their living room.

- DSK

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4 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

That would almost certainly void the disposal agreement.

You wanna get rid of it on your own, feel free.

One of the things I already knew, sorta, but have learned more certainly and with emphasis, from my youth sailors.... you cannot "throw stuff away"

There is no "away"

In world with few people and lots of wilderness, nobody notices when you toss trash in the ditch. Unfortunately for some, that world is gone, replaced by a crowded one with increasingly scarce natural resources. "Throwing away" an oily rag is likely to be viewed by most as throwing that oily rag into their living room.

- DSK

Quoted for truth.

I live in the country.  But we have a bowling alley (yeah wierd, I know) about 2 miles away.  Someone who frequents that bowling alley drinks the shot-size and larger containers of fireball and throws them out their window as they drive down our mile-long dirt road.  At least we are making the assumption that they go that bowling alley - as it's the only reason to cut down our road.  During our last road clean-up, we picked up nearly 50 bottles.  

Now here comes my temper.  I would like to find this person and beat the living shit out of them with a tire iron.  (There's a reason I live in the country.)  We have lots of wilderness - and we LIKE it that way.  I've thought about how to catch them - trail cams, etc.  I've considered going to the bowling alley a couple nights running and shining a light in the cars to see if I can see the bottles and identify the person.  I don't really have a good idea on how to catch them yet.  But if I did, it'd be done, and the police would be involved.  Or not.  I'm not sure which.  They might just come out to a note and a destroyed car.

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On 4/8/2021 at 12:00 PM, Olsonist said:

I launch the S at freeway on-ramps occasionally but otherwise meh. In fact, I use traffic aware cruise control a LOT. It's more aware and faster than I am or anyone is. I learned to drive with a stick on San Francisco hills. I used to revel in the control. My Benz cured me of that. Now with electrics (hybrids as well), fuck all that. CVT. What was I thinking?

BTW, whenever I hear the growl of some hemi I think what an idiot.

Meeeee-oooooowwwww......

FB_IMG_1614819817803.jpg

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On 4/6/2021 at 8:44 PM, Ishmael said:

My BIL has a big farm with big new machinery. A combine is over $1 Mil these days and they aren't going to take that into the shop. There is no way they are going to touch that machine themselves, a tech comes out and fixes it in the field.

If it's a John Deere riding mower, that's overreach.

Lawn mowers are a big problem.

 

https://www.lawnmowerfixed.com/how-to-reduce-lawn-mower-pollution/

https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2015-09/documents/banks.pdf

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6 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

That would almost certainly void the disposal agreement.

You wanna get rid of it on your own, feel free.

One of the things I already knew, sorta, but have learned more certainly and with emphasis, from my youth sailors.... you cannot "throw stuff away"

There is no "away"

In world with few people and lots of wilderness, nobody notices when you toss trash in the ditch. Unfortunately for some, that world is gone, replaced by a crowded one with increasingly scarce natural resources. "Throwing away" an oily rag is likely to be viewed by most as throwing that oily rag into their living room.

- DSK

If I buy a bottle of beer, it won't be recycled by my condo recycling center.  That seems to be widespread here, recently.  

I buy cans instead, but I'd rather we have the bottle deposit law passed in Michigan in 1978. The law works.

https://www.recyclenow.com/recycling-knowledge/how-is-it-recycled/glass

https://www.michigan.gov/documents/CIS_LCC_bottbill_32030_7.pdf

 

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5 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

In world with few people and lots of wilderness, nobody notices when you toss trash in the ditch. Unfortunately for some, that world is gone, replaced by a crowded one with increasingly scarce natural resources. "Throwing away" an oily rag is likely to be viewed by most as throwing that oily rag into their living room.

 

, consider taking a look at your local Gambler 500 group. 

Gambler 500 North Carolina | Facebook

, sort of a loosely associated bunch af crazies who drive 

Quote

$500 shitboxes on nasty back roads AND (oh, by the way), pick up all the shit we can find along the way.

Last (pre Plague) Sep.  it took coordinated action by 3 LEO agencies to contain a tweeker camp that had sprung up in my forest.  When the meth-up armed dangerous ones were cuffed ( want's & warrents )they went through & seperated the "birth givers" from the kids.  (The kids were taken to child protective place. ) and the rest were ran off. 

What had been a very pretty camp place that families had gone to for years,

, now looked like a city dump.  Worse!

Coordinating w/ landowner,  a big utility trailer was there when ~23 Gamblers arrived.

Needles & diapers, bottles, ect, ect.  Also general dumped in the forest stuff, a real old style (CRT) Big Screen, dead fridge, and so on.

Gloves & grabbers & buckets loaded needles diapers and trash into the fridge. 4 big guys hauled out the bigscreen. A winch pulled the fridge up to the trailer,  ect.  

In about 4 hr the place looked good enough to take your family camping again.

 

One of the local group described Gamblin' as 

Quote

 

a bunch of bleeding heart liberals, cold hearted conservatives, LGBTQ's & straights, anti's & armed nutters, straight laced & free spirits, and about any kind of "identities" who can find something to fight about,

 

, who can agree to put dat shit aside,, and clean up our forest.

 

You can all probably find a group local.

 

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I found out about them by accident.

, coming out of one hunting spot to another,  I saw a car stopped by the side with hood up.

  I always stop to see if someone is broke. he said not broke, just forgot to turn on the switch that runs the radiator cooling fan, and it was only hot. (???)

I looked at his rig, looks like an old miata, except the fenderwells had sawzall surgery to fit big knobby tires that SHOULD be on a jacked up pickumtruck,  with an ATV winch half ass bolted on the miata bumper and rats nest of wiring to support,,, hence the forgotton radiator fan switch.  goofy ass decals all over.

I said  "you've built yerself a freakin'  Rally car,, "  and he told me about the Gamblers.

yeah fun group, normally every summer they organize a 2 day 500 mi "gamble"  routing for 3 different routes/run.

Sissy on road,   Interesting  part on/off ,   and "The Devils Butthole" no comment needed.

 yeah fun group

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On 4/6/2021 at 10:58 AM, El Mariachi said:

Gnu Yawk Shitty, where apartment, condo & homeowners couldn't install their own garbage disposals.

Sure you can.  But your insurance will leaving you hanging, when the downstairs neighbor sues (after your garbage disposal meets the building's 100-year-old cast iron pipes). 

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Pro tip;

<productbrandname>techinfo.com usually takes you to the portal for all the vehicle info you need but most isn't free. 

https://www.johndeeretechinfo.com/

No idea how complete the available info is in J-D's case v what is supplied to dealers.

With Volvo (cars) the info I sometimes need to make a diagnosis without just shotgunning parts does not exist. Sometimes it is due to inadequate technical data publications and sometimes their diagnostic interface is not programmed to full display chains of data across a network. Volvo diagnostic scanner interface is absolute dogshit.

General Motors published tech data is just OK but the diagnostic scan tools have been really great since the 1990s.

 

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21 hours ago, LenP said:

Pretty sure that you could still return for a new one, but you might want to read the fine print. 

Uh oh. What if it's covered in grease and fish guts?

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On 4/8/2021 at 9:34 PM, Grrr... said:

And people still drop jaws when a mid size SUV spins all 4 tires leaving a stoplight :lol:.

Yep. My immediate reaction is - "Another fuckwit trying to compensate for a tiny dick".

FKT

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20 hours ago, El Mariachi said:

Meeeee-oooooowwwww......

FB_IMG_1614819817803.jpg

Is that a Hemi in that Hitler-mobile? I like the juxtaposition, if nothing else.

The thing that has always bugged me about the hemispherical engine is that they put the time and energy into it for WWII, and then they did fuck-all to that engine, pretty much from then to now, other than add a bunch of electronics, better timing, variable cylinder etc., but the actual combustion chamber is the same.

The original idea behind the hemi was to move from a cylindrical combustion chamber to a spherical combustion chamber, because the combustion front itself is spherical, so the coupling would be far more efficient with a spherical chamber. They didn't have a prayer to do that in WWII of course, the mechanicals are blindingly complicated, so they settled on the hemispherical head, which was an improvement.

But some 70 years later, we still have the hemi? What the actual fuck?

The reason we don't have spherical combustion chambers is little more than inertia and commercial laziness. In fact the average economy car engine isn't really all that different from an old Model T engine, other than some modest bumps in efficiency and pollution control. We're still coupling into the energy in the octane molecule are shockingly low efficiency, and we do so because it serves the needs of the oil industry for us to use a certain amount. So now the oil industry fucked themselves, and instead of progressing to near-complete combustion using advanced materials, fuel cell catalysts, and leach-combustion, they instead decided that it would be better to twilight their industry over the next sixty years.

When I see someone spin up from a stoplight, I see someone who still gives a shit about decent engineering. 90% of the fuckers on the road have no idea how their vehicle even works, they put the key in, it goes, and it gets them to their job selling services or whatever, or it gets them home to watch some shitty television show with assholes who all sing the same.

The reality of the automobile industry is that it has barely progressed BECAUSE most drivers don't give a shit what happens under their hood, as long as the car looks like something they want to fuck. And electric cars have been around as long as gasoline cars, they give the illusion of being advanced, but their speed and range and torque is the result to pulling up tons of rare earth elements from the ground in a completely unsustainable way that pollutes the ground and water.

People like FKT see someone who gives a shit about engines, and they immediately think about "tiny dicks" instead of combustion, torque, energy conversion, and power management. If people gave a shit, we would have clean air, clean water, we would pull hundreds of miles out of a gallon of gasoline, likely coupled with batteries, human power, solar skins, lane-segregated roadways for safety. But we don't give a shit, and too many people either want to deliberately fuck up the air by rolling coal, or else they shit all over other's efforts by equating every love of mechanicals to "tiny dicks."

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On 4/10/2021 at 7:05 AM, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Yep. My immediate reaction is - "Another fuckwit trying to compensate for a tiny dick".

FKT

It's telling that your immediate reaction is to be judgmental asshole, and to be interested in my dick.

I'm not interested in pursuing either conversation with you.

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On 4/8/2021 at 1:22 PM, Grrr... said:

Emissions tests are not required in Michigan.  However, the vendor claims it does.  50-state legal CARB EO D-752-A14

I live in one of the few counties in Wisconsin that requires emissions testing. Out of curiosity, I left my custom tune in my Fiesta ST when I took it to get tested. It passed, and that little engine is as wound up as I can get it before having to upgrade internals. 

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We stopped annual emissions testing here 7 years ago because 99% of the cars were passing. You had to keep the engine idling to keep the cats hot, so somebody calculated the amount of pollution caused by testing was about 685 tonnes of CO2. And even after repairs, sometimes you didn't pass.

I had a 1981 RX-7 with a carb. I'd drive it really hard to get the catalytic converter as hot as possible, go early on a Tuesday morning so no waits and would stay hot, and lean out the carb just before taking the test so the engine was barely running..

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On 4/10/2021 at 12:55 PM, mikewof said:

Is that a Hemi in that Hitler-mobile? I like the juxtaposition, if nothing else.

 

NO hemi that looks like a chevy small block

valve covers are too square and narrow

hemi valve covers a much wider and curved

and whole motor is bigger also

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