Jump to content

Recommended Posts

I have a close friend who is a former Marine, who is afraid of taking a vaccine that has not been approved. His objection is centered on the fear of side effects which has some basis in fact. I told him that when we were going to Vietnam, the government blasted us with those air powered devices that cut you and left a trail of your blood on the next person to receive a vaccination.

We received 21 different shots at one time. Some of these vaccines were experimental, like plague, anthrax, encephalitis or malaria. I know of no side effects or continuing problems from any of those innoculations, although logically, there must have been some.

It turns out that my friend recalled some panic from his own family, when polio was a controversy in the 1950s. Apparently, the Cutter vaccine, that gave live virus to children was the central topic in his family's conversation about polio. His wife recalled Thalidomide and DES in the 60s. So there is some basis for their angst.

Back then, people died because we rushed a vaccine into production. I cannot berate someone because they have a particular memory of hideous side effects. How should we deal with this? 

 

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 311
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

I respect their rats. Let them abstain. Get everyone vaccinated who wants a vaccine, and open things up. Let Darwin sort the rest out. 

For anyone who thinks that this is not a big deal if you are in a "low risk" group, you are mistaken and dangerously so. I am 52 and was very healthy coming into this, no risk factors at all. I s

ATLANTA, GA—In a surprise announcement today, the CDC revised its guidelines on social distancing. Vaccinated people can now ignore social distancing if needed in order to punch an unvaccinated person

Posted Images

For anyone who thinks that this is not a big deal if you are in a "low risk" group, you are mistaken and dangerously so.

I am 52 and was very healthy coming into this, no risk factors at all. I still ended up with double pneumonia and still can't go more than a couple hours without taking a break and nodding off for half an hour. I had fever of 103 for 11 days, and required iv fluids to rehydrate. I had no idea that I even had pneumonia at the time and only went to the ER because I had become so dehydrated from the fever. Thankfully they caught the pneumonia in the ER and with treatment, I am now slowly, very slowly, recovering. I count myself very fortunate, I am not dead, not in the hospital at the moment, and will likely eventually recover to most of what I was before this. Still, even with counting myself as fortunate, there is not an amount of money in the world that would have me go through this again. 

My oldest son is 28 and about as healthy as healthy gets. Runs ultra marathons up to 90 miles non-stop level healthy. He is not in as bad a shape as I am, but is still unable to complete workouts that were effortless for him before contracting covid. It may be years before he can run like he used to. 

My two youngest, 6 and 2, both had fevers of 103 for several days. My 6 year old developed croup cough from it, and the only reason he did not end up in the hospital is that my mother is a retired RN and we had a nebulizer on hand which we were able to treat him with. 

I am fortunate though, as are others in my family. Read through the Hobot thread in GA to see what can happen for those who not as fortunate. 

Refusing to vaccinate is an incredible act of selfishness and recklessness. It allows for more variants to develop which means increased likelihood of re-infection with a variant. There is nothing about this which should be political, it is about caring enough about your fellow Americans, if not yourself, to get a simple and safe vaccination so that you don't increase the risk of death or disablement to others. It is about being a decent human being and not a selfish prick mired in conspiracy theories who cares more about doing the opposite of what "liberals" do than about doing the right thing. 

  • Like 9
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, LenP said:

For anyone who thinks that this is not a big deal if you are in a "low risk" group, you are mistaken and dangerously so.

I am 52 and was very healthy coming into this, no risk factors at all. I still ended up with double pneumonia and still can't go more than a couple hours without taking a break and nodding off for half an hour. I had fever of 103 for 11 days,

My experience exactly. A decade ago I had just the flu at 55.  I was the picture of invincible health and had skipped the flu vax. Never want to repeat that. Days wheezing and shaking in bed wondering if it was the end of my sailing. I will take any offered vaccine to avoid anything remotely resembling that experience.

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, LenP said:

For anyone who thinks that this is not a big deal if you are in a "low risk" group, you are mistaken and dangerously so.

I am 52 and was very healthy coming into this, no risk factors at all. I still ended up with double pneumonia and still can't go more than a couple hours without taking a break and nodding off for half an hour. I had fever of 103 for 11 days, and required iv fluids to rehydrate. I had no idea that I even had pneumonia at the time and only went to the ER because I had become so dehydrated from the fever. Thankfully they caught the pneumonia in the ER and with treatment, I am now slowly, very slowly, recovering. I count myself very fortunate, I am not dead, not in the hospital at the moment, and will likely eventually recover to most of what I was before this. Still, even with counting myself as fortunate, there is not an amount of money in the world that would have me go through this again. 

My oldest son is 28 and about as healthy as healthy gets. Runs ultra marathons up to 90 miles non-stop level healthy. He is not in as bad a shape as I am, but is still unable to complete workouts that were effortless for him before contracting covid. It may be years before he can run like he used to. 

My two youngest, 6 and 2, both had fevers of 103 for several days. My 6 year old developed croup cough from it, and the only reason he did not end up in the hospital is that my mother is a retired RN and we had a nebulizer on hand which we were able to treat him with. 

I am fortunate though, as are others in my family. Read through the Hobot thread in GA to see what can happen for those who not as fortunate. 

Refusing to vaccinate is an incredible act of selfishness and recklessness. It allows for more variants to develop which means increased likelihood of re-infection with a variant. There is nothing about this which should be political, it is about caring enough about your fellow Americans, if not yourself, to get a simple and safe vaccination so that you don't increase the risk of death or disablement to others. It is about being a decent human being and not a selfish prick mired in conspiracy theories who cares more about doing the opposite of what "liberals" do than about doing the right thing. 

“Incredible act of selfishness” seems to be a positive thing to many of the folks who won’t wear masks, get vaccinated, etc. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

It turns out that my friend recalled some panic from his own family, when polio was a controversy in the 1950s. Apparently, the Cutter vaccine, that gave live virus to children was the central topic in his family's conversation about polio. His wife recalled Thalidomide and DES in the 60s. So there is some basis for their angst.

Back then, people died because we rushed a vaccine into production. I cannot berate someone because they have a particular memory of hideous side effects. How should we deal with this?

 

How about not bringing up Thalidomide and DES for a start since they aren't vaccines and the former wasn't approved by the FDA?  Who exactly died because we rushed a vaccine into production?  I am just doing a copy/paste from a post I made in GA now.

So we focus on those having reactions to the vaccine?  If we gave 100 million people each a pencil then within a few days some of them will die or have a stroke, choke on the pencil or put their eye out with it. Or write a ransom note and be thrown in jail.

Testing was extensive, months for each level - 30k people in my area were in the AZ trials and zip as far as bad news nothing has ever come out.  Anyone who doesn't want to risk being vaccinated should never go outside or eat spicy food. Or have people over.  If they insist on going outside please make it obvious you aren't being part of the solution, like carry a big flag for instance ( I live in Texas and know these people). 

More background (I had both shots, spent night after 2nd feeling like the flu condensed to 8 hours) this wasn't a hey, there is this thing so let's see if we can make a vaccine in 2019.  Research started over 10 years ago since to scientists the threat of a viral pandemic was enough to work on how to combat it. The rush to get this one done was built on the research of groups world wide.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Raz'r said:

There was a nasty flu going around last February. Lots of folks had it and nope, wasn’t Covid. Don’t take the shot Warbird. Build some herd immunity the old fashioned way.

Only problem with the Warbird/Anti-Vax crowd being allowed to roam freely among the vaccinated is eventually the virus could mutate into another variant that doesn't respond to the current vaccine. It's shear stupidity. Hopefully, the current strain will kill the stupid before it can mutate and kill the rest of us. Fingers crossed.

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, bhyde said:

Only problem with the Warbird/Anti-Vax crowd being allowed to roam freely among the vaccinated is eventually the virus could mutate into another variant that doesn't respond to the current vaccine. It's shear stupidity. Hopefully, the current strain will kill the stupid before it can mutate and kill the rest of us. Fingers crossed.

Stupidity mixed with selfishness and a bit of white-pride as an accelerant.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Raz'r said:

Stupidity mixed with selfishness and a bit of white-pride as an accelerant.

Add a little "fuck you, I got mine" catalyst just for good measure.

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, El Borracho said:

My experience exactly. A decade ago I had just the flu at 55.  I was the picture of invincible health and had skipped the flu vax. Never want to repeat that. Days wheezing and shaking in bed wondering if it was the end of my sailing. I will take any offered vaccine to avoid anything remotely resembling that experience.

Same here. Never had a flu shot in my life and never had any problems other than a mild fever for a day or so. No big deal I thought. January 2019 got the Flu and it nearly killed me. Doctor said I was pretty close to becoming a statistic. It took me 3 months to recover and even months after that I was weak. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't survive another round with the Flu and I know Covid would flat out kill me. Covid Shot - Check. Flu shot - Check.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, d'ranger said:

How about not bringing up Thalidomide and DES for a start since they aren't vaccines and the former wasn't approved by the FDA?  Who exactly died because we rushed a vaccine into production?  I am just doing a copy/paste from a post I made in GA now.

So we focus on those having reactions to the vaccine?  If we gave 100 million people each a pencil then within a few days some of them will die or have a stroke, choke on the pencil or put their eye out with it. Or write a ransom note and be thrown in jail.

Testing was extensive, months for each level - 30k people in my area were in the AZ trials and zip as far as bad news nothing has ever come out.  Anyone who doesn't want to risk being vaccinated should never go outside or eat spicy food. Or have people over.  If they insist on going outside please make it obvious you aren't being part of the solution, like carry a big flag for instance ( I live in Texas and know these people). 

More background (I had both shots, spent night after 2nd feeling like the flu condensed to 8 hours) this wasn't a hey, there is this thing so let's see if we can make a vaccine in 2019.  Research started over 10 years ago since to scientists the threat of a viral pandemic was enough to work on how to combat it. The rush to get this one done was built on the research of groups world wide.

165,000 doses of Cutters were distributed. I cannot find an exact breakdown of death or injuries, the drug was distributed on April 12, 1955, and was withdrawn on April 27th. In two weeks Cutters had paralyzed or killed 25 children. I didn't bring up thilodomide or DES, it was his wife's fear that I reported. Cutter was found not negligent years later, because the jury believed that the company did its best to formulate a drug that was incredibly hard to produce.

The current drugs still do not have approval even after ten years of development. I have had both of my shots, but I certainly understand how some people can have reservations.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, d'ranger said:

I am just doing a copy/paste from a post I made in GA now.

Oh no, the dreaded "Self Cite"!!  (Feeble Humor Attempt Alert) 

Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, warbird said:

I was hit hard early Feb 2020, pretty much bedridden. There are a few local companies that have a big presence in China.  My neighborhood Christmas party that year feature a few of those globetrotting execs.

 

If you did have the CoViD, how long do you think immunity lasts for?   A colleague lost his wife a couple months ago from CoViD.   I’m told the doctor suspected she could have been an early case last February, when she was also hospitalized for a week.   That was before the CDC was testing people without a travel history,   Only her husband had been to Asia.    Since you had a flu vaccine, tested negative for flu and knew somebody that had just come back from that part of the world, it’s possible you were just like her.   Does that really mean you’re safe now?    Personally, I expect them to require a booster on the vaccine some 12-18 months after initial inoculation, as virus breakthrough reports begin to mount.   
 

edit,   No I don’t know if she was a reinfection.   It’s plausible she was one of the few last February, when Trump’s appointees were pretending community spread wouldn’t happen.   Her widower, a staunch republican, was shocked she died of the virus after he was confident she was safe.   He blames the hospital.    Even those with knowledge of infectious disease have let political blinders hinder their objectivity.   

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, d'ranger said:

How about not bringing up Thalidomide and DES for a start since they aren't vaccines and the former wasn't approved by the FDA?  Who exactly died because we rushed a vaccine into production?  I am just doing a copy/paste from a post I made in GA now.

So we focus on those having reactions to the vaccine?  If we gave 100 million people each a pencil then within a few days some of them will die or have a stroke, choke on the pencil or put their eye out with it. Or write a ransom note and be thrown in jail.

Testing was extensive, months for each level - 30k people in my area were in the AZ trials and zip as far as bad news nothing has ever come out.  Anyone who doesn't want to risk being vaccinated should never go outside or eat spicy food. Or have people over.  If they insist on going outside please make it obvious you aren't being part of the solution, like carry a big flag for instance ( I live in Texas and know these people). 

More background (I had both shots, spent night after 2nd feeling like the flu condensed to 8 hours) this wasn't a hey, there is this thing so let's see if we can make a vaccine in 2019.  Research started over 10 years ago since to scientists the threat of a viral pandemic was enough to work on how to combat it. The rush to get this one done was built on the research of groups world wide.

Well yeah, but what about the microchips?

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Lark said:

If you did have the CoViD, how long do you think immunity lasts for?   A colleague lost his wife a couple months ago from CoViD.   I’m told the doctor suspected she could have been an early case last February, when she was also hospitalized for a week.   That was before the CDC was testing people without a travel history,   Only her husband had been to Asia.    Since you had a flu vaccine, tested negative for flu and knew somebody that had just come back from that part of the world, it’s possible you were just like her.   Does that really mean you’re safe now?    Personally, I expect them to require a booster on the vaccine some 12-18 months after initial inoculation, as virus breakthrough reports begin to mount.   

Nobody knows, and there are all kinds of immunity possible. One is there are no symptoms at all, but there can be a range of immunity, like only getting mildly or moderately sick. There is a theory that since it's related to the cold virus it will be hanging around for quite some time, but with each re-infection which the body fights off with mild symptoms it's its own booster, and as time passes people become more and more immune so it will eventually be wiped out. It is thought common colds and flu killed a lot of indigenous peoples during the Age of Exploration...for a time.  

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, badlatitude said:

I have a close friend who is a former Marine, who is afraid of taking a vaccine that has not been approved. His objection is centered on the fear of side effects which has some basis in fact. I told him that when we were going to Vietnam, the government blasted us with those air powered devices that cut you and left a trail of your blood on the next person to receive a vaccination.

We received 21 different shots at one time. Some of these vaccines were experimental, like plague, anthrax, encephalitis or malaria. I know of no side effects or continuing problems from any of those innoculations, although logically, there must have been some.

It turns out that my friend recalled some panic from his own family, when polio was a controversy in the 1950s. Apparently, the Cutter vaccine, that gave live virus to children was the central topic in his family's conversation about polio. His wife recalled Thalidomide and DES in the 60s. So there is some basis for their angst.

Back then, people died because we rushed a vaccine into production. I cannot berate someone because they have a particular memory of hideous side effects. How should we deal with this? 

I have a couple co-workers like that.  Where, you know, I can see the logic... 

One's an Australian aboriginal the other's Black.  They each point to specific examples, within the last 100 years, of their people being used a guinea pigs, without their consent (or even notification).  I'm supposed to tell them they're just being paranoid?  The medical establishment to earn that trust, and it'll take awhile.  

I see it as legitimate, and have decided to not worry about it.  It's just those two, out of ~50 staff, so they can be protected by herd immunity.

Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, frenchie said:

I have a couple co-workers like that.  Where, you know, I can see the logic... 

One's an Australian aboriginal the other's Black.  They each point to specific examples, within the last 100 years, of their people being used a guinea pigs, without their consent (or even notification).  I'm supposed to tell them they're just being paranoid?  The medical establishment to earn that trust, and it'll take awhile.  

I see it as legitimate, and have decided to not worry about it.  It's just those two, out of ~50 staff, so they can be protected by herd immunity.

I can certainly agree that the cutting edge of medicine is not a good place to be, but there when there are millions there before you with only a tiny percent suffering from it it's not cutting edge anymore.

 The anti-vaxers have to consider something else:  When the rates of infection really start to fall everybody is going to tear off the masks and go back to gathering. There is a strong possibility this thing will be like cold viruses, still there, and for a time replicating in small amounts in people who feel no symptoms. IOW, for a time it may spread like crazy.   

  

Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, frenchie said:

I have a couple co-workers like that.  Where, you know, I can see the logic... 

One's an Australian aboriginal the other's Black.  They each point to specific examples, within the last 100 years, of their people being used a guinea pigs, without their consent (or even notification).  I'm supposed to tell them they're just being paranoid?  The medical establishment to earn that trust, and it'll take awhile.  

I see it as legitimate, and have decided to not worry about it.  It's just those two, out of ~50 staff, so they can be protected by herd immunity.

Both of my friends have suggested that when final approval is given, they will be more receptive to getting a shot. It still concerns me, because the sheer number of people resisting is having a pronounced effect on the progression of variants. Yesterday, I read that 40% of active duty Marines have refused the vaccine and the government cannot compel mandatory vaccination until the drug has met with approval. 

I would prefer that the government stayed away from mandatory anything, but cooperation, or lack of it, is causing a possibly deadly counter reaction to the massive effort to get this pandemic under control. My friends are from Orange County CA, where wackadoodolism is an art form, I think their concerns are genuine, but getting them to get a vaccine has a huge blockade of complete nonsense in the way. The ultimate cost could be their very lives, and I don't think that comes close to entering their thought process. It's a pretty sad end when no one has died, there are no reports of severe complications like cancer, tumors, or organ compromise, and part of the world still refuses to see the easiest way out of this dilemma.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mark K said:

 

 The anti-vaxers have to consider something else:     

  

There are anti-vaxers who resist all vaccinations.  Do not lump people like myself who have most common vaccinations but choose not to be part of a medical experiment and will not be virtue shamed into such foolishness. In three or four years when we know more about the side effects of the numerous vaccinations for the China Virus I will be able to choose if I want one and which brand has shown to be the least dangerous and/or most effective.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, warbird said:

There are anti-vaxers who resist all vaccinations.  Do not lump people like myself who have most common vaccinations but choose not to be part of a medical experiment and will not be virtue shamed into such foolishness. In three or four years when we know more about the side effects of the numerous vaccinations for the China Virus I will be able to choose if I want one and which brand has shown to be the least dangerous and/or most effective.

Good chance you won’t be with us that long.

That will be a shame....

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, badlatitude said:

I have a close friend who is a former Marine, who is afraid of taking a vaccine that has not been approved. His objection is centered on the fear of side effects which has some basis in fact. I told him that when we were going to Vietnam, the government blasted us with those air powered devices that cut you and left a trail of your blood on the next person to receive a vaccination.

We received 21 different shots at one time. Some of these vaccines were experimental, like plague, anthrax, encephalitis or malaria. I know of no side effects or continuing problems from any of those innoculations, although logically, there must have been some.

It turns out that my friend recalled some panic from his own family, when polio was a controversy in the 1950s. Apparently, the Cutter vaccine, that gave live virus to children was the central topic in his family's conversation about polio. His wife recalled Thalidomide and DES in the 60s. So there is some basis for their angst.

Back then, people died because we rushed a vaccine into production. I cannot berate someone because they have a particular memory of hideous side effects. How should we deal with this? 

 

Thalidomide was not a vaccine or even a medicine for treatment of anything. It was marketed as a tranquilizer for expectant mothers. The horrible side effects were not known, true, but the women who took it did so in the expectation of Better Living Thru Chemistry, not avoiding a deadly plague or being treated by a doctor for a serious ailment.

Just picking nits, sorry

- DSK

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Fakenews said:

Good chance you won’t be with us that long.

That will be a shame....

You are talking stupid because there is a good chance I have already been exposed and if not, that 99.96 % survival means you are labeling .04% death rate as good chance. Stupid much?  But continue to feel good about yourself and letting the world know what a wonderful person you are and that anybody who disagrees with you wonderfulness is below contempt.

Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Olsonist said:

WarDodo is stupid but then he's also selfish. He's stupid because he knows there's this disease but he thinks he can tough it out. He won't even get the vaccination that his boy Shitstain got (in sekret) because ... stupid. He's selfish because after he gets the disease he'll give it to others.

What an asshole.

If you are vaccinated you do not need to worry about me passing the China Virus to you.  Think carefully about that.

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, warbird said:

You are talking stupid because there is a good chance I have already been exposed and if not, that 99.96 % survival means you are labeling .04% death rate as good chance. Stupid much?  But continue to feel good about yourself and letting the world know what a wonderful person you are and that anybody who disagrees with you wonderfulness is below contempt.

Perhaps I overstated the chance of you expiring.  So Sorry! But you are old with underlying conditions so your risk is greatly elevated.  Even if you don’t expire you have an excellent chance of experiencing long term physical and cognitive impairment (though in your case who could tell).

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/the-hidden-long-term-cognitive-effects-of-covid-2020100821133

Actually we have a member suffering from COVID and I don’t wish it on anyone.  But I won’t lose sleep if someone dies from COVID after refusing a vaccination. 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, warbird said:

If you are vaccinated you do not need to worry about me passing the China Virus to you.  Think carefully about that.

You are such a Trumpaloon sucking of the teat of others.  In this case you are relying that enough people get vaccinated so you don’t have to.  I hope it doesn’t work in your case.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Mark K said:

Nobody knows, and there are all kinds of immunity possible. One is there are no symptoms at all, but there can be a range of immunity, like only getting mildly or moderately sick. There is a theory that since it's related to the cold virus it will be hanging around for quite some time, but with each re-infection which the body fights off with mild symptoms it's its own booster, and as time passes people become more and more immune so it will eventually be wiped out. It is thought common colds and flu killed a lot of indigenous peoples during the Age of Exploration...for a time.  

I think that's likely   I've posted before about the limitations of antibodies as a prediction of immunity.   CoViD won't be a concern for children when they turn 70.   The problem with that theory is the cost of getting there.   Even as hospitals get better, behaviors change and initial virus doses are reduced by masks, new versions occur.  This seems to be happening faster then Cornell predicted last spring (they extrapolated a mutation rate lower then influenza, based on SARS 1.   As Hobot reminds us, this thing makes some individuals VERY sick without necessarily being fatal.

 I did the basic math (no calculus required) around May of last year.   I got numbers similar to Dr. Fauci's warning of last spring.    I think the low end (a million US deaths) was very plausible before a 'steady state' would be reached, without vaccination.    As I recall my simple formula, I assumed 80% of the population had to get it before it stopped spreading, half of those didn't get sick, and 0.4% of the sick individuals would die (low end WHO).   At that time testing was still poor, so there were a lot of mild cases that were never being diagnosed, causing an error on the high side.    On the other hand, the 'excess' deaths hadn't become apparent yet.   I think my assumption it would stop spreading before the last 20% caught it was optimistic.    As it becomes endemic and as reinfection (mild cases mostly) occur, everybody will get their chance at playing the CoVid lottery.     Even Gibraltar, with 2.7 deaths per thousand, hasn't reached 'immunity'.   They had seven new cases and another new death last month.  As some might recall, I opposed shutdowns last year, calling this a marathon.    

I think Warbird and others that want to ride this out without taking advantage of vaccination are doomed to play the lottery.   I might take a risk where the chance of death was around 0.2%, and expensive illness was perhaps 10 times that.   There would have to be a hell of a compensating reward.    I live deep in Republican territory.   I personally know dozens of people that 'caught it' last February and now feel safe.    I expect I personally must know every person in Ohio, as well as some in Indiana and Kansas.    That's a staggering coincidence, unless millions of conservatives falsely believe they were exposed from December 2019 to February 2020.

Personally I have limited fondness for Warbird's postings.  If he's wrong and has a Hobot scare (I will only think optimistically) I won't sign the wall posted in his honor.   I will worry that one of the hundreds of thousands of viruses he releases into the wild will be a new mutation that evades the Pfizer vaccine.    There are preliminary reports India has spawned a strain that is overrepresented in people with the Pfizer vaccine, meaning they have less protection to it then other strains.   

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Lark said:

 

Personally I have limited fondness for Warbird's postings.  If he's wrong and has a Hobot scare (I will only think optimistically) I won't sign the wall posted in his honor.   

 

You don't have to be fond of my postings.  That you don't is testament that you acknowledge there a flip  side to your coin...

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, warbird said:

There are anti-vaxers who resist all vaccinations.  Do not lump people like myself who have most common vaccinations but choose not to be part of a medical experiment and will not be virtue shamed into such foolishness. In three or four years when we know more about the side effects of the numerous vaccinations for the China Virus I will be able to choose if I want one and which brand has shown to be the least dangerous and/or most effective.

Three years? Expect the masks to come off and things getting back to normal sometime in the next 4-6 months.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Mark K said:

Three years? Expect the masks to come off and things getting back to normal sometime in the next 4-6 months.  

We are mask free in WI for many endeavors.  Some litigous shy retailer still request a mask.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, warbird said:

We are mask free in WI for many endeavors.  Some litigous shy retailer still request a mask.

You misunderstand their point of view.   As I recall your posts, you're a retired salary man.    If employees are positive they get ordered to quarantine.   The shy retailer is forced to pay their salary, compensated by a tax break.   If too many are stuck in quarantine he is forced to shut down for a couple weeks.   If key people (including the owner in many cases) are forced quarantine, they cannot be  replaced.   The cost of some stupid customer spreading the disease is FAR greater then the $200 the customer might have spent.   I have been forced to work inefficiently and slowly, with greater labor expense, for the last year.   I have been unable to meet the needs of those I serve.   The consequence of a shutdown would have been even greater.   I know businesses that have been shut down multiple times.  Two weeks after my last vaccine I will no longer be forced to quarantine, as long as I am symptom free.   I have 9 days left.    I am very glad I no longer have to subsidize employee Tinder dates and other life choices with CoViD pay when they get stuck in quarantine.   If, like you, they don't believe in vaccination then they get to quarantine at their own expense.  I do have to try to remain open despite being short handed.   

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Lark said:

You misunderstand their point of view.   As I recall your posts, you're a retired salary  HOURLY ( rather low) man.    If employees are positive they get ordered to quarantine.   The shy retailer is forced to pay their salary, compensated by a tax break.   If too many are stuck in quarantine he is forced to shut down for a couple weeks.   If key people (including the owner in many cases) are forced quarantine, they cannot be  replaced.   The cost of some stupid customer spreading the disease is FAR greater then the $200 the customer might have spent.   I have been forced to work inefficiently and slowly, with greater labor expense, for the last year.   I have been unable to meet the needs of those I serve.   The consequence of a shutdown would have been even greater.   I know businesses that have been shut down multiple times.  Two weeks after my last vaccine I will no longer be forced to quarantine, as long as I am symptom free.   I have 9 days left.    I am very glad I no longer have to subsidize employee Tinder dates and other life choices with CoViD pay when they get stuck in quarantine.   If, like you, they don't believe in vaccination then they get to quarantine at their own expense.  I do have to try to remain open despite being short handed.   

 

You can make "vaccine" a condition of employment, your choice.

Link to post
Share on other sites

This information is three months old. Check with a medical professional to confirm your own concerns.

Meanwhile, there is currently no conclusive evidence to claim the COVID-19 vaccine stops people spreading the virus that causes the disease – nor is there for the opposite. Early findings from Oxford/AstraZeneca revealed its vaccine could have some effect on transmitting the virus (here), while similar results have also been reported by Pfizer/BioNTech (here).

Scientists do not yet know whether COVID-19 vaccinations will reduce transmission because this was not tested in the trials (here, here). Instead, they found candidate vaccines were able to prevent symptomatic and severe effects of COVID-19 (here), meaning future research would need to take this further (here). For instance, it would need to look deeper into how the vaccine works in the body – whether it prevents an individual getting infected altogether, or whether it simply stops a person becoming sick. With the latter, this could mean the virus continues to replicate in the nose and throat, and is still able to spread (here).

As a result of this lack of information, governments and experts have openly stressed the need to follow social distancing and mask requirements even after being fully vaccinated (here, here, here).

VERDICT

Missing context. There is no conclusive evidence to claim COVID-19 vaccines do not prevent people spreading the disease. Scientists are not yet sure of how the vaccine affects transmission – and this is currently undergoing research. People are still required to follow restrictions even after vaccination to account for this uncertainty.

Read more about our work to fact-check social media posts here .

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-transmission/fact-check-scientists-do-not-yet-know-whether-the-covid-19-vaccine-reduces-transmission-of-the-virus-idUSKBN29N1UH

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Mark K said:
1 hour ago, warbird said:

...  ...

... Expect the masks to come off and things getting back to normal sometime in the next 4-6 months.  

Agreed, this is a realistic timeline IMHO and it's really good to say so, finally... it was over a year ago that I cautiously felt out those closest to me with the initial assessment that it would be over a year but that great caution/discretion should be used in saying so.

Disclaimer- there are plenty of idiots eager to throw themselves into this fire to prove how brave/Trump-loving/"independent-thinking" they are. It could burn pretty hot and another wave (spreading from Michigan for example) could render this timeline overly optimistic.

- DSK

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, warbird said:

We are mask free in WI for many endeavors.  Some litigous shy retailer still request a mask.

When everybody stops wearing masks and gathering again, will it spread faster or slower? 

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, warbird said:

You can make "vaccine" a condition of employment, your choice.

Being a conservative area, and labor markets being tight still, I went with the 'gift card' approach.   I certainly considered forcing people not to behave stupidly.   I'm not sure who subsidizes all the misinformation out there.  I'm not surprised that 100% of my people with advanced life science degrees are vaccinated or seeking vaccination.   

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Lark said:

Being a conservative area, and labor markets being tight still, I went with the 'gift card' approach.   I certainly considered forcing people not to behave stupidly.   I'm not sure who subsidizes all the misinformation out there.  I'm not surprised that 100% of my people with advanced life science degrees are vaccinated or seeking vaccination.   

Those people are likely young and trusting...   The very best science at the time, 11 April 1970,  "Houston, we have a problem":ph34r:

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Mark K said:

When everybody stops wearing masks and gathering again, will it spread faster or slower? 

In the absence of other variables, it would of course spread faster.    Other variables include darwinism, inoculation, natural immunity slowly accumulating, etc.   At some point masks will be of minimal importance.    Despite wearing one when appropriate at work all my life, I admit to a visceral reaction when I first saw people wearing masks in the store.   My eyes were looking for a gun and my hands were ready for a fight for my life.   I'd argue that the Asian countries with a mask wearing tradition seem to show a clear benefit.   Its really unfortunate the far right didn't jump on masks as a way to avoid facial recognition software and overly intrusive government.    

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, warbird said:

Those people are likely young and trusting...   The very best science at the time, 11 April 1970,  "Houston, we have a problem":ph34r:

Average age:    45.  One is semiretired. Since it requires additional years after earning a BS to get an advanced degree, none are too young.   Trusting:   More like critical thinkers.    The trusting ones are the ones that believe facebook posts and conspiracy theories.    

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, warbird said:
10 minutes ago, Lark said:

... not surprised that 100% of my people with advanced life science degrees are vaccinated or seeking vaccination.   

Those people are likely young and trusting...   The very best science at the time, 11 April 1970,  "Houston, we have a problem"

You really don't understand the difference between "zero risk" and known risk and VERY FUCKING RISKY

1 minute ago, Lark said:

Average age:    45.  One is semiretired. Since it requires additional years after earning a BS to get an advanced degree, none are too young.   Trusting:   More like critical thinkers.    The trusting ones are the ones that believe facebook posts and conspiracy theories.    

IOW people who can assess the reliability and usefulness of available data instead of swallowing prejudice, and also compare quantified risks of known outcomes. Critical thinking, yes! Unfortunately not available to some

- DSK

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Agreed, this is a realistic timeline IMHO and it's really good to say so, finally... it was over a year ago that I cautiously felt out those closest to me with the initial assessment that it would be over a year but that great caution/discretion should be used in saying so.

Disclaimer- there are plenty of idiots eager to throw themselves into this fire to prove how brave/Trump-loving/"independent-thinking" they are. It could burn pretty hot and another wave (spreading from Michigan for example) could render this timeline overly optimistic.

- DSK

 

I expect when all the people who want to be vaxed are, there will be a steep drop in hospitalizations and at that point victory will be generally declared.  If this bug is still floating around the un-vaxed will all get it, and in a hurry. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Mark K said:

I expect when all the people who want to be vaxed are, there will be a steep drop in hospitalizations and at that point victory will be generally declared.  If this bug is still floating around the un-vaxed will all get it, and in a hurry. 

I understand that reasoning but given we have been travelling, working, shopping, shipping, I am not sure I follow you logic.

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, warbird said:

I understand that reasoning but given we have been travelling, working, shopping, shipping, I am not sure I follow you logic.

The rest f us have been offering you a layer of protection along with somewhat forced compliance with local masking ordinances.  Once we get vaccinated (but not at levels sufficient for herd immunity) and ditch the masks the virus will follow the path of least resistance and kill a good number of your Elk.

Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, warbird said:

I understand that reasoning but given we have been travelling, working, shopping, shipping, I am not sure I follow you logic.

 Of course, it's all a hoax. Nothing to worry about. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Fakenews said:

The rest f us have been offering you a layer of protection along with somewhat forced compliance with local masking ordinances.  Once we get vaccinated (but not at levels sufficient for herd immunity) and ditch the masks the virus will follow the path of least resistance and kill a good number of your Elk.

You are relishing the thought. :D Now, if I survive will you admit your stupidity?

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Fakenews said:

The rest f us have been offering you a layer of protection along with somewhat forced compliance with local masking ordinances.  

No, you have been virtue signaling for a dozen months. You are a sheeple.

Link to post
Share on other sites

What do you call a person that refused to take a vaccine that is 95%+ effective at preventing a deadly disease, and then takes drugs that have been proven to be blatantly unhealthy? I'm sure there is a word for it. Just can't seem to find it.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Fakenews said:

The rest f us have been offering you a layer of protection along with somewhat forced compliance with local masking ordinances.  Once we get vaccinated (but not at levels sufficient for herd immunity) and ditch the masks the virus will follow the path of least resistance and kill a good number of your Elk.

No, you may have isolated but Amazon and "grocery direct", "Liquor direct" kept you going.  Growers, distillers, winemakers, herders, butchers and bakers  and truck driver(never mind miners, drillers, lineman, plumbers, printers and even some paupers) kept you comfy in your virtue signaling isolation.  You are not any kind of saint, you are a fucking leech on the exposure to others.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, bhyde said:

What do you call a person that refused to take a vaccine that is 95%+ effective at preventing a deadly disease, and then takes drugs that have been proven to be blatantly unhealthy? I'm sure there is a word for it. Just can't seem to find it.

American

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

You really don't understand the difference between "zero risk" and known risk and VERY FUCKING RISKY

IOW people who can assess the reliability and usefulness of available data instead of swallowing prejudice, and also compare quantified risks of known outcomes. Critical thinking, yes! Unfortunately not available to some

- DSK

That's the thing about humans. We suck at statistics. 

Statistics are pretty simple. Take a step to reduce your risk of dying of covid to pretty much zero, or take a risk of getting it and dying.

Some people think that by choosing to NOT take a step they are taking less risk. But they are not. They just suck at statistics.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, warbird said:

I understand that reasoning but given we have been travelling, working, shopping, shipping, I am not sure I follow you logic.

You're playing russian roulette with a revolver, not a semi-automatic.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/9/2021 at 11:16 PM, benwynn said:

I'm looking forward to the days of reckoning for all of you idiots who stand in the way of progress.  Like trying to book a flight across the country, and being told something along the lines of: "Not vaccinated?  Sorry.... I guess you'll just have to fucking drive."

A 7 year old could have seen that coming. DUH

So you've had your vaccination for Covid 19, right? 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Venom said:

A 7 year old could have seen that coming. DUH

So you've had your vaccination for Covid 19, right? 

 

One thing is for sure, we are all hoping you did not. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, warbird said:

If you are vaccinated you do not need to worry about me passing the China Virus to you.  Think carefully about that.

That is not true, particularly as more variants develop as folks refuse to adhere to safety measures and get vaccinated. My mother ended up with pneumonia from it after receiving both vaccine doses. She is in a very high risk group, and the course of her illness was milder than mine which is almost certainly due to having received the vaccine. Still, she did get it and did get quite ill. The best way out of this and back to a somewhat normal society and economy is with everyone pulling together and working with the best knowledge we have at any given time.  

The idea that getting vaccinated, which is clearly a benefit not just to individuals but to society as a whole, is an exercise in virtue signaling is destructive. That is a dangerous idea which you are promoting. You should be grateful that you and your family have not been affected more dramatically by the disease, not arrogant that you will not be, and certainly not so arrogant that you believe you have no responsibility to the community you live in. We are all Americans and should care about what happens to each other, regardless of whether we tend to vote Democrat or Republican. The level of anger you have towards your fellow Americans is more than a little disturbing. 

 

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, LenP said:

That is not true, particularly as more variants develop as folks refuse to adhere to safety measures and get vaccinated. My mother ended up with pneumonia from it after receiving both vaccine doses. She is in a very high risk group, and the course of her illness was milder than mine which is almost certainly due to having received the vaccine. Still, she did get it and did get quite ill. The best way out of this and back to a somewhat normal society and economy is with everyone pulling together and working with the best knowledge we have at any given time.  

The idea that getting vaccinated, which is clearly a benefit not just to individuals but to society as a whole, is an exercise in virtue signaling is destructive. That is a dangerous idea which you are promoting. You should be grateful that you and your family have not been affected more dramatically by the disease, not arrogant that you will not be, and certainly not so arrogant that you believe you have no responsibility to the community you live in. We are all Americans and should care about what happens to each other, regardless of whether we tend to vote Democrat or Republican. The level of anger you have towards your fellow Americans is more than a little disturbing. 

 

Republicans are takers. the bolded part is their core belief, in a nutshell. The community exists to benefit them, fuck everybody else.

"The community? You're kidding, right, all those fukkers ever do is raise my goddam taxes!"

The USA will move on from the pandemic but it will do so without a lot of Trumpalos who refuse the vaccine because of their feelings. And unfortunately they will still impose a burden on the rest of us.

- DSK

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Steam Flyer said:

Republicans are takers. the bolded part is their core belief, in a nutshell. The community exists to benefit them, fuck everybody else.

"The community? You're kidding, right, all those fukkers ever do is raise my goddam taxes!"

The USA will move on from the pandemic but it will do so without a lot of Trumpalos who refuse the vaccine because of their feelings. And unfortunately they will still impose a burden on the rest of us.

- DSK

 

It is not all Republicans, but it does seem to be a growing Trump segment of the party. I know lots of Rs who were first in line for the vaccine and do believe it is a civic responsibility in addition to common sense for their own health. There are also lots of Dems who fall prey to conspiracy theories who are anti-vax, so it is not as party specific as one might think. Still, folks like Warbird seem to be driving the majority of the opposition to vaccines and restrictions that require proof of vaccines to participate in public events or travel. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Clove Hitch said:

One thing is for sure, we are all hoping you did not. 

Wrong again half-wit. :D

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, LenP said:

It is not all Republicans, but it does seem to be a growing Trump segment of the party. I know lots of Rs who were first in line for the vaccine and do believe it is a civic responsibility in addition to common sense for their own health. There are also lots of Dems who fall prey to conspiracy theories who are anti-vax, so it is not as party specific as one might think. Still, folks like Warbird seem to be driving the majority of the opposition to vaccines and restrictions that require proof of vaccines to participate in public events or travel. 

Older white Christian males are the demographic with the highest percentage of Covid-vax-deniers and this also falls pretty sharply along party lines too.

... when you talk about anti-vaxxers in general that opens it up considerably...

I'm surprised and disappointed by the high numbers of people who say they will refuse the Covid vaccine.

- DSK

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/6/2021 at 11:35 PM, Sol Rosenberg said:

I respect their rats. Let them abstain. Get everyone vaccinated who wants a vaccine, and open things up. Let Darwin sort the rest out. 

The fact that you exist disproves Darwin's theory.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Venom said:

A 7 year old could have seen that coming. DUH

So you've had your vaccination for Covid 19, right? 

Reserved a spot at 2am the first day I was eligible and got it two days later.  You?

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Clove Hitch said:

One thing is for sure, we are all hoping you did not. 

 

1 hour ago, Venom said:

Wrong again half-wit. :D

How would you know what we all are hoping for?

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, benwynn said:

Reserved a spot at 2am the first day I was eligible and got it two days later.  You?

I'm good it's pretty much required for travel unless you want to go through two week quarantine.

Unfortunately the Yugo that comrade Putin sent me isn't seaworthy. :D  

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/9/2021 at 11:26 AM, Raz'r said:

Hmm, brings up blacks as a group, wonders why that’s racist. Could’ve said “inner city poor” or poor in general. Chose not too. Why?

Because you dumb cunt - it's not about inner city poor or just the poor.  The news article that I read specifically said it was blacks who were not getting vaccinated due to past historical stuff like Tuskeegee and such.  Why is saying that fucking racist???  How does saying inner city poor or just "poor"
 cover the affluent blacks in rural Alabama who are refusing the vaccine???  

BTW - Did I mention you're a dumb cunt?  You dumb cunt.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/9/2021 at 11:28 AM, Raz'r said:
On 4/9/2021 at 10:36 AM, Sol Rosenberg said:

Darwin, Chuckles. 

Republicans really do want to kill their constituents. Quite amazing really.

I personally would be all in favor of the anti-vaxx folks to invoke self-darwinism and remove themselves from the gene pool.  But only it were that simple.  Allowing these idiots to abstain allows the virus to circulate and mutate to the point where there might be a vaccine resistant strain and then we are ALL fucked again.  If the rona just killed them instantly and the virus died with them, that would be awesome.  But it doesn't.

And again, why is it good that darwin preys on republicans - but the blacks who do the same in large numbers get a pass.  Strange.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

I personally would be all in favor of the anti-vaxx folks to invoke self-darwinism and remove themselves from the gene pool.  But only it were that simple.  Allowing these idiots to abstain allows the virus to circulate and mutate to the point where there might be a vaccine resistant strain and then we are ALL fucked again.  If the rona just killed them instantly and the virus died with them, that would be awesome.  But it doesn't.

And again, why is it good that darwin preys on republicans - but the blacks who do the same in large numbers get a pass.  Strange.  

Who says the "Blacks" get a pass?  At least they have some history to say "but you white assholes told us it was safe this other time..."

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/10/2021 at 6:42 PM, warbird said:

I am a vigorous 62 year old male.  When, in 5 years, other vigorous 62 year old males now 67 say they are still vigorous I might consider then getting the vaccine.

Idiot!

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/10/2021 at 6:53 PM, warbird said:

Sorry  , I am not gambling with my health.....   I will not bend to virtue signaling from idiots, sorry that you do.

It's not virtue signaling, it's called science.  I'll bet you're also anti-mask. 

I hate to hear myself say this, but I sincerely hope you get seriously sick with covid.  Not die, but miserably sick.  And now to prevent my karma from crashing for saying that out loud, I'm going to let at least 5 assholes pass me and I'll let them into traffic so they can exit at the last second.  I might even refrain from honking the horn at jay-walkers who lazy their ass across a busy road holding up traffic.  That last one is a stretch, but it may be required to placate the karma gods.  But yes, people like you seriously need to get sick and learn about science the hard way.  Idiot.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Burning Man said:

It's not virtue signaling, it's called science.  I'll bet you're also anti-mask. 

I hate to hear myself say this, but I sincerely hope you get seriously sick with covid.  Not die, but miserably sick.  And now to prevent my karma from crashing for saying that out loud, I'm going to let at least 5 assholes pass me and I'll let them into traffic so they can exit at the last second.  I might even refrain from honking the horn at jay-walkers who lazy their ass across a busy road holding up traffic.  That last one is a stretch, but it may be required to placate the karma gods.  But yes, people like you seriously need to get sick and learn about science the hard way.  Idiot.

He can't defend Trump any more, so this is his new hill to die on.

Fuck him, I hope he and all his elk meet the same fate.

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

It's not virtue signaling, it's called science.  I'll bet you're also anti-mask. 

So what?

You've got your mask and you've had your shots so you are safe right? 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, d'ranger said:

Covidiot.  Otherwise correctamundo.

Speaking of which, what happened to @Saorsa?  We figure the dog got it, but what about Soreass?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Wait a minute . .  Didn't the WBird promise to absent his miserable self 

from PA for a year if the Drumph lost ?? 

but actually, he's more than likely an adherent of the Big Lie 

Link to post
Share on other sites

An important correlate of Covid Vax refusal is viewership of 

FAUX "News". 

They are flat-out murderers. 

https://www.salon.com/2021/03/16/trump-cant-save-vaccine-hesitant-republicans-fox-news-has-turned-the-gop-into-a-death-cult/

And the FAUX facilities BTW take all the sciency recommended precautions . .  

but they don't tell their viewers that. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

EF90560D-92E4-4802-B596-D6731156F912.jpeg

So you got locked out of your office again? :o

Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

Wait a minute . .  Didn't the WBird promise to absent his miserable self 

from PA for a year if the Drumph lost ?? 

but actually, he's more than likely an adherent of the Big Lie 

No, that was Bravo². He is probably here as just another sock with a 72 IQ.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Ishmael said:

No, that was Bravo². He is probably here as just another sock with a 72 IQ.

Thanks - I sit corrected. 

But they do rather resemble each other, don't they? 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Some of this stuff you can't make up. We passed Fiction and Carl Hiassen long ago.

Trumpets brother of DIL - gets made that she (preg.) won't attend his second wedding which has no COVID precautions (a couple months back).

NOW, he is flying to Africa to "hunt" inside a fenced area that they stock with animals. Since he was never a hunter, one has to imagine that Cocaine Eric and Bros doing this is creating a "echo" effect among the true cult members.

But, wait - he's getting EVERY vaccine needed to go to Africa - except COVID. 

This, I'm sure even our local trump cult member can agree, IS virtue signaling? That is, the most important thing being that no one knows I get the COVID vaccine (who knows, he might get it, but he doesn't want anyone to know how weak he is)....

It's as if he is broadcasting "I haven't done much of value in my life nor anything that gains me positive attention- therefore, I will attempt to become as much of an arse as possible b/c it might "own some libs", including my own family who I may become estranged from".

"But, you know, the value of thinking I am doing something that other Trumpets approve us - that is priceless and worth more than family or friends". 

Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Mark K said:
19 hours ago, warbird said:

Or the same?

Count on getting it. 

I hope so.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Mark K said:

I expect when all the people who want to be vaxed are, there will be a steep drop in hospitalizations and at that point victory will be generally declared.  If this bug is still floating around the un-vaxed will all get it, and in a hurry. 

I hope so.

Link to post
Share on other sites