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J/111 cruising speed under power?


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For you 111 owners, what’s the cruising speed through water under power? What engine RPM and fuel consumption? 
 

I'm looking into a 700nm delivery, and would appreciate any info I should know.

Thanks!

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1 hour ago, PeterRoss said:

Did the sails break?

You have 700 miles to learn how to sail (the new boat.)

Oh I'll be sailing a good bit of it! One of the legs is all me though :-)

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The data Blur posted is typical for what I've seen with other 2 and 3 cylinder J boats with fuel consumption and the RPM where it really starts to increase. The sweet spot is between 2400 - 2600 RPM.  Pick a speed that minimizes vibration.  Both my J/30 (2GM) and now  J/109 (3YM30) consumes about .5-.6 gal/hour at that RPM.  Increasing to 3000 rpm almost doubled the fuel consumption with just a little more incremental speed.

You may want to increase the speed periodically to blow any carbon buildup out of the exhaust system. Idle and low rpms for a long period of time should be avoided, and I believe there is is a warning in one of the Yanmar manuals about that. Volvo shouldn't be much different. 

ps - 700 mile to where? Not sticking around Narragansett Bay for racing?

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Next "homework" is figuring out best RPM for charging Litium batteries and running watermaker at the same time :huh:

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14 hours ago, Blur said:

Next "homework" is figuring out best RPM for charging Litium batteries and running watermaker at the same time :huh:

That will throw your speed curve off a little if you upsized an alternator to account for the increased electrical loads.  Better for the engine, a little detrimental to boat speed

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On 4/9/2021 at 10:07 AM, George Dewey said:

Hmmm... Thanks @Blur but I guess European boats are different. Mine has a Yanmar 3YM20 21hp and a 20 gallon fuel tank...

 

Perhaps Euro boat specifications are Imperial gallons? US gallons are smaller than Imperial gallons.

US gallon = .83 Imperial gallon so the tanks could possibly be the same.

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17 hours ago, Blur said:

Next "homework" is figuring out best RPM for charging Litium batteries and running watermaker at the same time :huh:

We found that we had to start the watermaker first and then start the motor. But we were using the sail drive water inlet for both the motor and the watermaker pick up. Over about 12 knots boat speed we would get cavitation from the dedicated watermaker thru-hull, so we switched to using the sail drive. If we started the motor first the watermaker was not happy with the negative line pressure to prime. 
 

we charged at about 2000 rpm just when the motor would smooth out and alternator output reached max amps. 

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On 4/9/2021 at 10:03 AM, George Dewey said:

Oh I'll be sailing a good bit of it! One of the legs is all me though :-)

and that's the leg where you'll learn the most about the boat. sail as much as you possible can. 

establish a  minimum speed of advance and keep the sails up until you cannot maintain that. 

then motor until the sailing conditions get back to where you'll meet that minimum speed of advance. 

You will learn more about the handling characteristics of your boat, and what if feels and sounds like than you will when 

you're chugging along with the momo on... don't waste this opportunity. 

Learn how to reef by yourself.. and change a sail by yourself.. actually wear your safety equipment.. 

 

enjoy the trip and make the most of it. 

 

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On 4/11/2021 at 3:19 PM, IMR said:

We found that we had to start the watermaker first and then start the motor. But we were using the sail drive water inlet for both the motor and the watermaker pick up. Over about 12 knots boat speed we would get cavitation from the dedicated watermaker thru-hull, so we switched to using the sail drive. If we started the motor first the watermaker was not happy with the negative line pressure to prime. 
 

we charged at about 2000 rpm just when the motor would smooth out and alternator output reached max amps. 

Thanks. We decided to add a new, slighly angled, inlet under the sink. I really hope this will work, or we might need to move it to the sail drive. 

How did you measure water level (to understand consumtion & how long to run the watermaker)?

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3 hours ago, George Dewey said:

@Blur and @IMR I presume you guys upgraded your alternators, what did you go to? Looking at the engine enclosure it does not seem there is enough room from a large frame alternator in there. 

The Volvo Penta D1-20 has a 14V/115A alternator that works great. 

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47 minutes ago, Blur said:

The Volvo Penta D1-20 has a 14V/115A alternator that works great. 

Oh right. We're not so lucky with the Yanmar, it has a Hitachi alternator that is terrible. 

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2 hours ago, George Dewey said:

Oh right. We're not so lucky with the Yanmar, it has a Hitachi alternator that is terrible. 

The OEM Hitachi on my 2GM was horrible... replaced with a 100A Balmar with a charge controller and it's great. Can get full 100A at 1300 RPM but I usually limit is at 65A.

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1 hour ago, climenuts said:

The OEM Hitachi on my 2GM was horrible... replaced with a 100A Balmar with a charge controller and it's great. Can get full 100A at 1300 RPM but I usually limit is at 65A.

That's what I'm looking at doing, good to know it worked out, thanks!

 

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8 hours ago, Blur said:

Thanks. We decided to add a new, slighly angled, inlet under the sink. I really hope this will work, or we might need to move it to the sail drive. 

How did you measure water level (to understand consumtion & how long to run the watermaker)?

We just sounded the tanks daily and tried to keep a prudent amount of water on board.  General we made water daily and would run it for about 1 hour. 

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15 hours ago, George Dewey said:

That's what I'm looking at doing, good to know it worked out, thanks!

 

Consider a serpentine belt kit or at least upsizing the belt one size. You'll go through more belts with stock sizes.

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4 minutes ago, climenuts said:

Consider a serpentine belt kit or at least upsizing the belt one size. You'll go through more belts with stock sizes.

To do that do I need to change all the pulleys on that belt?

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1 minute ago, George Dewey said:

To do that do I need to change all the pulleys on that belt?

Yeah. Balmar sells serpentine kits (they're not cheap) for various Yanmar engines which are bolt-on. I haven't had much issues running 65A on my 2GMs 1/2" belt but they do wear. I think Balmar recommends serpentine or multiple V-belts over 100A @12V. 

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On 4/13/2021 at 11:24 AM, climenuts said:

Yeah. Balmar sells serpentine kits (they're not cheap) for various Yanmar engines which are bolt-on. I haven't had much issues running 65A on my 2GMs 1/2" belt but they do wear. I think Balmar recommends serpentine or multiple V-belts over 100A @12V. 

Thanks I'll check that out.

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On 4/15/2021 at 1:24 PM, George Dewey said:

Thanks I'll check that out.

I installed the serpentine kit on my 3YM30 and documented it on the J/109 forum at this link with pictures.  It is a great upgrade that eliminates belt dust and make the engine run smoother.

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On the topic of engines, my boat splashed a few days ago and today I fired up the engine (Yanmar 3YM20) with the SD20 saildrive. I just received this boat so I have no experience with this engine, other than having started it when I was looking at the boat last season. It was winterized by the prior owner.

I first opened the raw water seacock on the saildrive, or I think I did. I couldn't turn it by hand, but with  wrench I was able to get it started and made a few turns counterclockwise. The saildrive manual says that's the correct direction to open it. I started the engine, but just the antifreeze came out. I shut it down, tried again, and just  bunch of smoke. I let it run for 40 seconds, still nothing and no water in the raw water strainer. 

It's hard to tell if this is open or not, I have never seen this type of seacock before. Does the picture tell anything? How long should it take the engine to fill with seawater and start spitting it out the back?

IMG_2790.thumb.JPG.c9803886861a851d87d928ba6422c89b.JPG

 

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14 hours ago, George Dewey said:

On the topic of engines, my boat splashed a few days ago and today I fired up the engine (Yanmar 3YM20) with the SD20 saildrive. I just received this boat so I have no experience with this engine, other than having started it when I was looking at the boat last season. It was winterized by the prior owner.

I first opened the raw water seacock on the saildrive, or I think I did. I couldn't turn it by hand, but with  wrench I was able to get it started and made a few turns counterclockwise. The saildrive manual says that's the correct direction to open it. I started the engine, but just the antifreeze came out. I shut it down, tried again, and just  bunch of smoke. I let it run for 40 seconds, still nothing and no water in the raw water strainer. 

It's hard to tell if this is open or not, I have never seen this type of seacock before. Does the picture tell anything? How long should it take the engine to fill with seawater and start spitting it out the back?

IMG_2790.thumb.JPG.c9803886861a851d87d928ba6422c89b.JPG

 

Here is a picture of mine in the open position.  You can see the line on the shaft of the closed position. 

20210418_164713.jpg

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Thanks guys that very helpful. Mine will only do two full turns, so I don't know if it's fully open and won't close, mostly closed and won't open, somewhere in between... I got my shop vac, opened the strainer and was able to suck seawater into the shop vac, so the valve is at least partially opened. The water pump had a broken impeller and I had to dig a broken blade out of the pump opening that led to the engine. Once I had the new impeller in, it still didn't work until I revved the engine up in neutral. Then it finally sucked water into the strainer and through the engine.

It will still be good to know the valve status, maybe I'll have to replace it. I'm not sure why I shouldn't just leave it open.

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5 hours ago, George Dewey said:

It will still be good to know the valve status, maybe I'll have to replace it. I'm not sure why I shouldn't just leave it open.

Same happens on needing to rev the engine on my 3YM30 after initial launch, or if the system has been opened to air.  I cycle the valve on the hard once per year just to make sure it can be closed if needed but always leave it in the open position. Glad to see you go it sorted.

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On 4/13/2021 at 11:24 AM, climenuts said:

Yeah. Balmar sells serpentine kits (they're not cheap) for various Yanmar engines which are bolt-on. I haven't had much issues running 65A on my 2GMs 1/2" belt but they do wear. I think Balmar recommends serpentine or multiple V-belts over 100A @12V. 

@climenuts Did you go with a Balmar 6 series? Balmar tells me my engine has a 1/2 inch belt, and you said you do as well and it has served you well. I'm on the fence about the $500 pulley upgrade kit. If I pay for that I'll probably go to the 120A alternator, but it seems you're doing okay with the 1/2 inch belt. If you had it to do again, you you upgrade the belt? As you said Balmar recommends the upgrade for the 120A alternator, but they do say the 1/2 inch is okay for the 100A.  But perhaps you do okay with your 1/2 inch because you derate to 65? 

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On 4/24/2021 at 1:20 AM, George Dewey said:

@climenuts Did you go with a Balmar 6 series? Balmar tells me my engine has a 1/2 inch belt, and you said you do as well and it has served you well. I'm on the fence about the $500 pulley upgrade kit. If I pay for that I'll probably go to the 120A alternator, but it seems you're doing okay with the 1/2 inch belt. If you had it to do again, you you upgrade the belt? As you said Balmar recommends the upgrade for the 120A alternator, but they do say the 1/2 inch is okay for the 100A.  But perhaps you do okay with your 1/2 inch because you derate to 65? 

FYI - before I upgraded to the serpentine, it had a 1/2" belt with the 110A Balmar alternator on the 3YM30.  Belt dust was everywhere.  The serpentine belt fixed that and made the engine run smoother due to eliminating belt slippage.

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On 4/23/2021 at 10:20 PM, George Dewey said:

@climenuts Did you go with a Balmar 6 series? Balmar tells me my engine has a 1/2 inch belt, and you said you do as well and it has served you well. I'm on the fence about the $500 pulley upgrade kit. If I pay for that I'll probably go to the 120A alternator, but it seems you're doing okay with the 1/2 inch belt. If you had it to do again, you you upgrade the belt? As you said Balmar recommends the upgrade for the 120A alternator, but they do say the 1/2 inch is okay for the 100A.  But perhaps you do okay with your 1/2 inch because you derate to 65? 

The 100A alternator works with the 1/2" belt but there is a lot of dust. Even de-rated to 65A there's quite a bit. I am pretty limited in the amount of time I'm putting full amperage into the batteries so it's not a major issue. If I was doing more 1-2 weeks cruises or sailing offshore where I was doing full bulk amperage for hours on end I'd be upgrading. Most of my motoring has the alternator disabled since I'm only away for a weekend. Only when on 4+ night trips do I actually charge to keep things topped up.

 

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On 4/23/2021 at 10:20 PM, George Dewey said:

@climenuts Did you go with a Balmar 6 series? Balmar tells me my engine has a 1/2 inch belt, and you said you do as well and it has served you well. I'm on the fence about the $500 pulley upgrade kit. If I pay for that I'll probably go to the 120A alternator, but it seems you're doing okay with the 1/2 inch belt. If you had it to do again, you you upgrade the belt? As you said Balmar recommends the upgrade for the 120A alternator, but they do say the 1/2 inch is okay for the 100A.  But perhaps you do okay with your 1/2 inch because you derate to 65? 

and yes: 100A 6-Series with MC-614 controller. My 2GM had a 3/8" belt but put on 1/2" which fits in the pulley quite a bit better.

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1 minute ago, climenuts said:

The 100A alternator works with the 1/2" belt but there is a lot of dust. Even de-rated to 65A there's quite a bit. I am pretty limited in the amount of time I'm putting full amperage into the batteries so it's not a major issue. If I was doing more 1-2 weeks cruises or sailing offshore where I was doing full bulk amperage for hours on end I'd be upgrading. Most of my motoring has the alternator disabled since I'm only away for a weekend. Only when on 4+ night trips do I actually charge to keep things topped up.

Thanks, good to know. I actually ordered the Balmar 110A alternator upgrade kit and the belt upgrade as well. I figured I can get away with the 100A an the 1/2 inch belt but if I can't, I'll end upgrading the belt but then I'll only have the 100A alternator. So, I'll just do it all at once.

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@George Dewey What do you have for batteries that warrants 100/110A? My understanding was the J/111 only comes with one 100Ah battery which would warrant a maximum charge of 33A assuming lead acid. Even with a 100Ah lithium 100A is on the really high end.

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16 minutes ago, climenuts said:

@George Dewey What do you have for batteries that warrants 100/110A? My understanding was the J/111 only comes with one 100Ah battery which would warrant a maximum charge of 33A assuming lead acid. Even with a 100Ah lithium 100A is on the really high end.

I'm planning to replace the two 90Ah AGM batteries with a 270Ah LFP bank. Those will suck down as much current as is provided, so the alternator will have to be able to source it without destroying itself. The 110A alternator will deliver nearly 100A when it's hot, so I'll be able to charge mostly this bank in under 3 hours. One thing that's nice about LFP is that they are happy to be charged half way. In fact, if they are going to be sitting, they prefer it. 

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 4/20/2021 at 1:40 AM, George Dewey said:

Thanks guys that very helpful. Mine will only do two full turns, so I don't know if it's fully open and won't close, mostly closed and won't open, somewhere in between... I got my shop vac, opened the strainer and was able to suck seawater into the shop vac, so the valve is at least partially opened. The water pump had a broken impeller and I had to dig a broken blade out of the pump opening that led to the engine. Once I had the new impeller in, it still didn't work until I revved the engine up in neutral. Then it finally sucked water into the strainer and through the engine.

It will still be good to know the valve status, maybe I'll have to replace it. I'm not sure why I shouldn't just leave it open.

Pull that valve off and go with a regular ball valve(1/2" looks like) with a close nipple in the SD and a 90 degree street elbow on the other side to a hose barb for your hose. Be done with it.  Or go with the street elbow off the SD if you're concerned about the valve sticking out too much. 

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1 hour ago, Squalamax said:

Pull that valve off and go with a regular ball valve(1/2" looks like) with a close nipple in the SD and a 90 degree street elbow on the other side to a hose barb for your hose. Be done with it.  Or go with the street elbow off the SD if you're concerned about the valve sticking out too much. 

I'll add that to the list for the next haul out thanks!

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  • 1 month later...
On 4/9/2021 at 2:43 AM, George Dewey said:

For you 111 owners, what’s the cruising speed through water under power? What engine RPM and fuel consumption? 
 

I'm looking into a 700nm delivery, and would appreciate any info I should know.

Thanks!

So, my numbers are a little different than others.  We have a 17 gallon tank.  We typically deliver at between 3000-3200 rpm.  This burns about .5-.6 gallons per hour, which is significantly less than shown in the manual. Our cruising speed in flat water tends to be 7.0-7.2 kts.  Our engine is a Yanmar 3YM20.

We always have a fuel reserve on deck though...so for a 40 hour delivery (Harbor Springs to Chicago), we'll carry 27 gallons (17 in the tank and 10 on the deck) which should get us 45-54 hours.  We'll often motor sail too which means throttle back to conserve fuel.

Hope this helps.

Hroth

 

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