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The Nationality Rule : The Pros and Cons


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“It’s possible to support a team without being a self indulgent cunt about it” … discuss. 

I am not a fan of nationality rules. But then I am not very nationalistic. I get that for some national teams adds to the 'buy in'. But for me, beyond some initial hook, I tend to end up finding

Here is the only wording related to nationality in the Deed of Gift: "Any organized yacht Club of a foreign country, incorporated, patented, or licensed by the legislature, admiralty or other exe

On 5/16/2021 at 3:04 AM, NeedAClew said:

We got "Canadian" teams. 

Much like the 'America's Cup' wasn't named after a country, the 'World' Series was (albeit disputed) named after the New York World newspaper.

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  • 4 months later...

Of Course TE could be wrong but in yesterdays Show he mentioned possibly Tom Slingsby joining INEOS for their AC37 Challenge raising Questions if the 100 % Nationality Rule agreed between ETNZ/INEOS will either be dropped or significantly reduced.

I guess we will find out on November 17 when the Protocol gets published.

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4 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Of Course TE could be wrong but in yesterdays Show he mentioned possibly Tom Slingsby joining INEOS for their AC37 Challenge raising Questions if the 100 % Nationality Rule agreed between ETNZ/INEOS will either be dropped or significantly reduced.

I guess we will find out on November 17 when the Protocol gets published.

Yep.

Nothing we hear until we have a signed Protocol means much.

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1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

Someone posted during yesterday’s TE show that he thinks TS’s father is English; so maybe he has dual nationality.

Dual nationality can be tricky in sailing. Not sure if you can be different nationalities for concurrent events, although the AC has its own specific definition of nationality, and World Sailing has another. 
 

World Sailing lists him as AUS, as does SailGP.

We’ll just have to see the final AC nationality definitions and requirements.

 

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On 5/21/2021 at 12:28 AM, rh3000 said:

Much like the 'America's Cup' wasn't named after a country, the 'World' Series was (albeit disputed) named after the New York World newspaper.

Disputed because most reputable sources dismiss the idea as a myth. See forex Snopes

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52 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Have never seen JS listed as anything but AUS either, but it seems very likely he could choose to register as USA if he ever wanted or needed to.

Except in SailGP.. it's also well known he has a US passport from his Oracle days plus isn't his wife American born / citizen also? 

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On 5/15/2021 at 1:21 AM, Forourselves said:

A 100% Nationality rule is everything for countries like NZ, Australia, the UK, Spain and Switzerland. The US can clearly comply with a 100% rule but choose not to.

The rule is great for the Cup moving forward.

As long as that 100% doesn't include title sponsors, designers where you choose to hold it etc. Of course NZ could comply with nationality rules for the rest, but choose not to

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3 minutes ago, JonRowe said:

Except in SailGP.. it's also well known he has a US passport from his Oracle days (plus his family home (wife and kids) is in the USA)

Didn't realize it was 'well-known' but JS's wife and children (they live mostly in San Diego, on Coronado Island) are USA and an article from a few months back also said he has citizenship.

Do any/many countries allow more than dual nationality? There could be a bunch of sailors with two or more?

 

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2 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Didn't realize it was 'well-known' but JS's wife and children (they live mostly in San Diego, on Coronado Island) are USA and an article from a few months back also said he has citizenship.

Do any/many countries allow more than dual nationality? There could be a bunch of sailors with two or more?

 

It is not a simple subject,

Google it.

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5 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

As long as that 100% doesn't include title sponsors, designers where you choose to hold it etc. Of course NZ could comply with nationality rules for the rest, but choose not to

Thats exactly right. Its a made for TV product, therefor it applies to the guys who are on TV

 

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8 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

So the title sponsor won't appear on TV? Or the location?  Don't think they will be happy about that

Mutual consent is all that matters.

Neither Valencia or Bermuda were "Home waters" of the Defender at the time.

Get over it.

 

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20 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Mutual consent is all that matters.

Neither Valencia or Bermuda were "Home waters" of the Defender at the time.

Get over it.

 

I thought winning was the only thing that matters?

And I was never under it. I never had a problem with those defences, nor would I if NZ held it in Cork or Valencia. Just find your criticism of US hypocritical. After all if it's only MC and winning that matter, why did you criticise them for having non nationals in the sailing team?

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Just now, enigmatically2 said:

I thought winning was the only thing that matters?

And I was never under it. I never had a problem with those defences, nor would I if NZ held it in Cork or Valencia. Just find your criticism of US hypocritical. After all if it's only MC and winning that matter, why did you criticise them for having non nationals in the sailing team?

It is. Hence the Nationality rule. A nationality rule minimises teams from being raided by other teams.

Why? Because they were promoting it as being a US team, which it wasn't. It was a boat full of Aussies flying the US flag. Because every time we heard the crew communicating, it was all Australian accents.

Again, hence the Nationality rules.

 

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3 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

It is. Hence the Nationality rule. A nationality rule minimises teams from being raided by other teams.

Why? Because they were promoting it as being a US team, which it wasn't. It was a boat full of Aussies flying the US flag. Because every time we heard the crew communicating, it was all Australian accents.

Again, hence the Nationality rules.

 

Let's be honest, the nationality rule means fuck all. PB and the mullet guy are just average and any of the crews of the 3 challengers would have won in Te Rehuti. It's boat speed in the end always. That's all that matters. 

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27 minutes ago, pusslicker said:

Let's be honest, the nationality rule means fuck all. PB and the mullet guy are just average and any of the crews of the 3 challengers would have won in Te Rehuti. It's boat speed in the end always. That's all that matters. 

Let’s be honest, it only means fuck all to those teams that can’t or choose not to comply. Yes it is about boat speed. It goes back to decisions made before the boat is even built. A different crew with different ideas may not have come up with Te Rehutai.

Teams also need to keep their crews together between events. Hence the Nationality rule.

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1 hour ago, pusslicker said:

Let's be honest, the nationality rule means fuck all. PB and the mullet guy are just average and any of the crews of the 3 challengers would have won in Te Rehuti. It's boat speed in the end always. That's all that matters. 

So if it is all about boat speed, that means it is all about the designers. So why not have the nationality rule cover them, would make more sense than the sailors.

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12 minutes ago, Gissie said:

So if it is all about boat speed, that means it is all about the designers. So why not have the nationality rule cover them, would make more sense than the sailors.

It's all about the money, so why not have a nat. rule for the money/donors/sponsors. This would be very close to the times of GS.

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3 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

@Forourselves

Let's be honest this Nationality Rule will be challenged in Court. ETNZ will have to cut it down from 100 %!

What court? The DoG says nothing about crew nationality one way or another.

If the Defender and COR agree on crew nationality requirements via a Protocol for AC37 that both sign onto, they have mutually consented to terms for racing, as permitted by the DoG.

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14 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

It's all about the money, so why not have a nat. rule for the money/donors/sponsors. This would be very close to the times of GS.

True, there was no concern then about who was doing the manual work. It was all about the rich bloke facing off another rich bloke, so having the rich bloke have to follow nationality rules would be best. Didn't the team say they wanted to return the cup back to its roots? Should be a no brainer.

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9 minutes ago, accnick said:

What court? The DoG says nothing about crew nationality one way or another.

If the Defender and COR agree on crew nationality requirements via a Protocol for AC37 that both sign onto, they have mutually consented to terms for racing, as permitted by the DoG.

Makes sense but there is a possible twist. There are laws in Europe to protect athletes from nationality restrictions, regarding what teams they can sign up with. It may be limited to pro football, maybe even only UEFA, but it could be much wider-reaching. 

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2 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Makes sense but there is a possible twist. There are laws in Europe to protect athletes from nationality restrictions, regarding what teams they can sign up with. It may be limited to pro football, but it could be much wider-reaching. 

The question there would be jurisdiction, and possibly standing.

Porthos may chime in on this

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A Nationally rule would be a strong marketing boost to the AC and feeder programs to develop a talent pool. We've got some great talent here in the USA. Hopefully,  it will be part of the next several AC cycles.

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1 hour ago, Gissie said:

So if it is all about boat speed, that means it is all about the designers. So why not have the nationality rule cover them, would make more sense than the sailors.

Like I said. It’s a made for TV product now, whether you like it or not. That’s the truth. The Nationality rule applies to the sailors because they’re the guys people see on their TVs everyday and cheer on. No one cares about Nick Holroyd, Ben and Giles are the guys UK fans get behind on a daily basis. Same with Dan Bernasconi, no one gives a crap about Dan, but Kiwi’s get behind Burling and Tuke just as no one cared about Laurie Davidson or Doug Peterson. Coutts and Butterworth got all the praise because the TV coverage made them superstars. Like it or not, it’s a very simple concept.

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2 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Like I said. It’s a made for TV product now, whether you like it or not. That’s the truth. The Nationality rule applies to the sailors because they’re the guys people see on their TVs everyday and cheer on. No one cares about Nick Holroyd, Ben and Giles are the guys UK fans get behind on a daily basis. Same with Dan Bernasconi, no one gives a crap about Dan, but Kiwi’s get behind Burling and Tuke just as no one cared about Laurie Davidson or Doug Peterson. Coutts and Butterworth got all the praise because the TV coverage made them superstars. Like it or not, it’s a very simple concept.

Most Americans probably couldn’t care less about the nationality of the sailors, even if they are interested in the event.

It’s professional sport, not the Olympics. We just want to see the best players at the top of their game, as a rule.

One of the few times we care about the nationality of professional  sportsmen is the Ryder Cup.

That event probably has a hundred (or more) times the television audience of the AC here.

I realize NZ is a different world.

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3 hours ago, Gissie said:

So if it is all about boat speed, that means it is all about the designers. So why not have the nationality rule cover them, would make more sense than the sailors.

While opinions vary I have been arguing this for years. Define the Constructed in Country clause as being about design and construction. Let the $B's be the figureheads.

There's no preventing nat rules on sailors by MC and I'm actually in favor of it being a good percent, at least a majority, but it's far less a priority for me personally than about CiC. 

Am casually watching the Seattle Seahawks play the Minnesota Vikings right now, both teams have very solid city-identity fans. I doubt a single Seahawk player is from Seattle but guess what? Nobody cares, they are now representing us! And the (late) Seattle Billionaire Paul Allen (AC connection there with OneWorld Challenge, with JS and BA as helms) is who left a trust for the Seahawks. Oh, and Seattle is their home field, where they get to play until they lose when it comes to the sharp end (yes, unfortunately until the weekend of the Super Bowl) :)

   

 

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25 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

@accnickI think the US is the oddball here because you don't take part in the world's big team sports so much. But for most of the world brought up with international football, cricket or rugby, that nationality issue is quite big.

 

You may well be right.

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30 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

@accnickI think the US is the oddball here because you don't take part in the world's big team sports so much. But for most of the world brought up with international football, cricket or rugby, that nationality issue is quite big.

 

You did write 'international' football (soccer to yanks) but it seems to me that the Manchester Uniteds of the world have no nat rules whatsoever - and yet (like the Seahawks) have massive fan-bases.

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22 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

While opinions vary I have been arguing this for years. Define the Constructed in Country clause as being about design and construction. Let the $B's be the figureheads.

There's no preventing nat rules on sailors by MC and I'm actually in favor of it being a good percent, at least a majority, but it's far less a priority for me personally than about CiC. 

Am casually watching the Seattle Seahawks play the Minnesota Vikings right now, both teams have very solid city-identity fans. I doubt a single Seahawk player is from Seattle but guess what? Nobody cares, they are now representing us! And the (late) Seattle Billionaire Paul Allen (AC connection there with OneWorld Challenge, with JS and BA as helms) is who left a trust for the Seahawks. Oh, and Seattle is their home field, where they get to play until they lose when it comes to the sharp end (yes, unfortunately until the weekend of the Super Bowl) :)

   

 

The UK is extremely passionate about their football team, as are countries like Brazil, Spain and the Netherlands.

India is extremely passionate about their Cricket team, as is England, NZ and Australia. 
 

NZ, South Africa and England are passionate about their rugby teams. America is passionate about its city teams, but not so much at an International level. Not since “that” Dream team went to the Olympics and won the Gold medal. Probably a reason why America doesn’t really do that well at an International level of team sport.

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3 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

You did write 'international' football (soccer to yanks) but it seems to me that the Manchester Uniteds of the world have no nat rules whatsoever - and yet (like the Seahawks) have massive fan-bases.

As does Man City, Newcastle, Liverpool, Arsenal. None represent England at a National level.

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30 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

You did write 'international' football (soccer to yanks) but it seems to me that the Manchester Uniteds of the world have no nat rules whatsoever - and yet (like the Seahawks) have massive fan-bases.

Absolutely true. And that aspect of football or rugby etc is the same as in the US. But the experience of a world cup say is totally different (and puts the claim about the AC being the 3rd biggest sporting event).

I have been at rugby 6 nations game and heard the Irish boo one English player when his name was announced because he had been born in Dublin, but had English ancestry and decided to play for England. They also booed another English player who had got away with a foul in a club match against an Irish club a few weeks before. It didn't matter that the Irish club in question was not theirs. It was Irish. 

The US celebrate their patriotism in ways that seem alien to us (eg pledges at school). But without experiencing it you will surely underestimate that aspect of sport in most other (western?) nations

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2 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

The US celebrate their patriotism in ways that seem alien to us (eg pledges at school). But without experiencing it you will surely underestimate that aspect of sport in most other (western?) nations

Yes, obviously the WC and RWC are highly nationalistic. But those events are rare and (non-nat) pro sports seem to grab far-more massive accumulative attention. 

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Well, the AC is supposed to be friendly competition between foreign countries.

But the CiC clause is the only direct constraint on nationality in the DoG.

Coming full circle, the only real issue I have with crew nationality requirements is how it limits opportunity for a lot of great sailors.

 

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9 minutes ago, accnick said:

Well, the AC is supposed to be friendly competition between foreign countries.

But the CiC clause is the only direct constraint on nationality in the DoG.

Coming full circle, the only real issue I have with crew nationality requirements is how it limits opportunity for a lot of great sailors.

 

Agree 100%. It is why I maintain that CiC is what should be strict, and if there is sailor nat agreed by MC then that part should not be 100%. 

The situation where (as example) the head of the NZ design is non-NZer, but sailors are to be 100% NZers for TV and (presumably salary-limiting) monetary reasons is completely upside-down, DoG-wise. The priority is in the wrong place.

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3 hours ago, accnick said:

Well, the AC is supposed to be friendly competition between foreign countries.

But the CiC clause is the only direct constraint on nationality in the DoG.

Coming full circle, the only real issue I have with crew nationality requirements is how it limits opportunity for a lot of great sailors.

 

Not having them and/or having a bunch of of AUS /USA sailors for a decade didn't help the US pipeline much

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6 hours ago, Forourselves said:

As does Man City, Newcastle, Liverpool, Arsenal. None represent England at a National level.

But the team is not a national team like those in rugby, cricket etc. It is a pro team that represents a club, nowhere near a national team at all.

In reality it is much more like Man City, Arsenal etc. A business who has survival and money as its driving force.

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42 minutes ago, Gissie said:

But the team is not a national team like those in rugby, cricket etc. It is a pro team that represents a club, nowhere near a national team at all.

In reality it is much more like Man City, Arsenal etc. A business who has survival and money as its driving force.

But it IS a national team. Its fans and supporters perceive it as such.

It has a board of directors and executive management and staff.

Any business/ company/ incorporated society first and foremost, has survival and money (revenue) as its driving force, otherwise it would not exist, Team NZ is no different.

 

 

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49 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

But it IS a national team. Its fans and supporters perceive it as such.

It has a board of directors and executive management and staff.

Any business/ company/ incorporated society first and foremost, has survival and money (revenue) as its driving force, otherwise it would not exist, Team NZ is no different.

 

 

So because they have sold you a lie it becomes a truth. Nice one, sorry to have responded.

Then you even point out the team is a business, which is not a national team. Yeah, you will go on about the AB's being a business, which they are. But they are just an arm of a national group. A sports association that is also a member of a world wide group of similar associations around the world.

The team is none of that. No national association to run it, no member of a world wide group. Although there is such a sailing group in NZ, one the team is not a part of. They are just a pro team pretending to give a toss about the country.

Will leave you in your little world again, sad as it is.

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17 minutes ago, Gissie said:

So because they have sold you a lie it becomes a truth. Nice one, sorry to have responded.

Then you even point out the team is a business, which is not a national team. Yeah, you will go on about the AB's being a business, which they are. But they are just an arm of a national group. A sports association that is also a member of a world wide group of similar associations around the world.

The team is none of that. No national association to run it, no member of a world wide group. Although there is such a sailing group in NZ, one the team is not a part of. They are just a pro team pretending to give a toss about the country.

Will leave you in your little world again, sad as it is.

The All Blacks are a business. ETNZ are also a National team. They are also partnered with the NZ Sailing Team, and supported the NZ Youth America’s Cup team put together by, and run by the NZ Sailing team, which is where guys like Josh Junior and Andy Maloney came out of. So yes. They are a National Team.

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11 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

The All Blacks are a business. ETNZ are also a National team. They are also partnered with the NZ Sailing Team, and supported the NZ Youth America’s Cup team put together by, and run by the NZ Sailing team, which is where guys like Josh Junior and Andy Maloney came out of. So yes. They are a National Team.

Of course the AB's are a business and they are run by NZR. Not a separate team with no ties. If the team was under the control of our sailing national body then, yes, they could be considered a national team.

But they aren't, they are a private, pro team. One that has no responsibility to any one or any country. Their responsibility is purely to themselves, to survive and pay the bills. They may have partners, but they would and will dump them if needed. 

Shit,  I do need to leave you to your dreams of how much the team cares for us Kiwis. And unicorns and fairies.

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2 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

Stingers and 4telling people about what is and isn’t the national sport in various countries and what is perceived as a national team… :lol:

I don't care what you perceive as a National Team. Just because you don't have the balls to support your national team because you're scared of them making you look like more of a loser than you already are, doesn't mean everyone is the same.

Emirates Team NZ represents New Zealand in the Americas Cup. Thats enough for Me, and indeed the thousands that cheered the team on in Auckland to call them a National Team.

Oh, and this

 

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8 hours ago, Gissie said:

Of course the AB's are a business and they are run by NZR. Not a separate team with no ties. If the team was under the control of our sailing national body then, yes, they could be considered a national team.

But they aren't, they are a private, pro team. One that has no responsibility to any one or any country. Their responsibility is purely to themselves, to survive and pay the bills. They may have partners, but they would and will dump them if needed. 

Shit,  I do need to leave you to your dreams of how much the team cares for us Kiwis. And unicorns and fairies.

Definitely a National Team. 

 

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22 hours ago, Forourselves said:

I don't care what you perceive as a National Team. Just because you don't have the balls to support your national team because you're scared of them making you look like more of a loser than you already are, doesn't mean everyone is the same.

Emirates Team NZ represents New Zealand in the Americas Cup. Thats enough for Me, and indeed the thousands that cheered the team on in Auckland to call them a National Team.

Oh, and this

 

What are you on about now?  Which aren’t I supporting? 
 

 

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33 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

What are you on about now?  Which aren’t I supporting? 
 

 

4's threshold for sufficiently supporting is when the team principal could be entirely supported by a supporters tongue inserted in his arsehole. He passed this test but normal human beings do not

 

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9 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

What are you on about now?  Which aren’t I supporting? 
 

 

Grow a pair and pick a team.

9 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

4's threshold for sufficiently supporting is when the team principal could be entirely supported by a supporters tongue inserted in his arsehole. He passed this test but normal human beings do not

 

Blah blah blah at least I’m not supporting my team in secret cos I’m too scared that my team sux lol

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5 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Grow a pair and pick a team.

Blah blah blah at least I’m not supporting my team in secret cos I’m too scared that my team sux lol

Nor are either of us. Both of us have made our loyalties very clear. The fact that your reading comprehension is too poor to understand that, so you have twice suggested I am yank is your own problem. Though it must be difficult to read given where your tongue is.

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15 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

Nor are either of us. Both of us have made our loyalties very clear. The fact that your reading comprehension is too poor to understand that, so you have twice suggested I am yank is your own problem. Though it must be difficult to read given where your tongue is.

I have never suggested you are a Yank. You are clearly a whiney Pom. 

Not exactly flying the flag though are you? Lol a closet INEOS supporter.

Who would blame you though.

Pretty hypocritical of you to be complaining about ETNZ while being an INEOS fan.

 

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7 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

I have never suggested you are a Yank. You are clearly a whiney Pom. 

Not exactly flying the flag though are you? Lol a closet INEOS supporter.

Who would blame you though.

Pretty hypocritical of you to be complaining about ETNZ while being an INEOS fan.

 

Wrong on all 3 assertions. Quite an achievement

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2 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

Wrong on all 3 assertions. Quite an achievement

Right on the only one that matters.

You're still a closet supporter willing to bag the current champion at every turn, but afraid to show his own true colours.
 

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Never the team, just the people making it into an embarrassing shambles. Or the fucking stupid pedestal that you put them  on when all and sundry can see that they are being outperformed by a Greek Swiss bloke and the Danish.  
 

funny you took the bait, hit a nerve? 

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8 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

 “It’s possible to support a team without being a self indulgent cunt about it” … discuss. 

You can "discuss" all you like, but be assured that you yourself are just the nastiest trolling cunt on this forum. Sorry, I should have said one of the nastiest, you're not alone...

 

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5 minutes ago, Fiji Bitter said:

You can "discuss" all you like, but be assured that you yourself are just the nastiest trolling cunt on this forum. Sorry, I should have said one of the nastiest, you're not alone...

You checked the mirror lately.

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34 minutes ago, efrank said:

I hear the AB's are looking to play their home matches in Ireland because they can't extort enough money from the NZ government.  Of course no Irish will be allowed to play for them, although they may allow one really talented Aussie.

We'll take Hooper thanks.

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3 hours ago, Fiji Bitter said:

You can "discuss" all you like, but be assured that you yourself are just the nastiest trolling cunt on this forum. Sorry, I should have said one of the nastiest, you're not alone...

 

Aww shucks… thanks babe xx

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1 hour ago, NeedAClew said:

If AM is still Trumper funded, nope.

Stars+Stripes were disingenuous at best and NYYC seem impotent.

I guess I want Golden Ben to get the big silver mug. 

 

Bertelli has funded so many AC campaigns, is this his 6th now? Great showing for LR/Prada to make it into the Match this past time and achieve a 3-3 score at one point. 

I have a fondness for Italy and may be scarce here for the next 6 weeks (I know, you will miss me!!!! :) ) and will be immersing myself in scenes like this, in Bella Roma. My flight departs a few hours from now, perfecto.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Bertelli has funded so many AC campaigns, is this his 6th now? Great showing for LR/Prada to make it into the Match this past time and achieve a 3-3 score at one point. 

I have a fondness for Italy and may be scarce here for the next 6 weeks (I know, you will miss me!!!! :) ) and will be immersing myself in scenes like this, in Bella Roma. My flight departs a few hours from now, perfecto.

 

 

They are certainly now my favourite team. Loved how Spithall brought a bit of mongrel to the team at last. Be nice to see them take it home.

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