Jump to content

Hank-on Sails or Roller Furling Sails?


Recommended Posts

Hank-on Sails or Roller Furling?

Most people believe that anyone advocating hank-on sails over roller furling sails is certifiably crazy. Just look at the local marinas, a sea of masts, all with roller furling systems. It is very rare to find a boat today with hank-on sails.  Are hank-on sails just “old fashioned” or have modern sailors been seduced by the ship chandlers and sail makers into thinking furling sails are a must-have item? Have hank-on sails really been surpassed by the benefits of modern furling sails? Or are we just getting lazy?

There is no question that furling systems have improved with age and they definitely have their place on harbour and coastal sailing yachts. They are just so easy to use in a day-sailing situation when you have a pretty good idea what the weather will be like.  However, there are compromises that skippers need to consider if they are heading offshore with roller furling. Here are a few things to think about before your next offshore passage.

Windage

Furled headsails create a lot of windage aloft when they are furled. When sailing offshore, they would normally only be furled in heavy winds and this is the time to reduce windage aloft, not increase it.

Weight Aloft

Furling systems carry the weight of the sail up high in the rigging when it is furled.  This is exactly where you don’t want the weight in rough weather. The weight issue is different than the windage issue but together they exacerbate the problem of furled sails in heavy weather.

Accidental Un-furling

When the headsail is rolled up in a storm there can be a great deal of chaffing and stress on the small furling line.  Many accidents with furling sails have been caused by this furling line giving way (usually in the middle of the night of course).  A fully un-furled 130% genoa beating itself to death in nasty weather is not a pretty sight.

Reefing

The sailmakers suggest that headsails can be “reefed” by rolling them up part way. The reality is that doing this creates a “bag” affect, forcing the draft towards the aft part of the sail. And in heavy winds, you want less draft, a flatter sail. So, reefing a furling sail does the opposite of what you want to achieve.  Sure, it does reduce sail area but you could be losing your ability to sail upwind just when you need it most.  Sailing with a bag on your headstay, even a smaller bag, does not necessarily keep you off that lee shore.

If you are only an hour or so from port, it may be an acceptable compromise. However, if you are several days from port, this situation can be untenable.

Some may argue that foam pads in the luff help keep the shape as the sail is rolled in. However, this has not proven sustainable for more than a few hours as the foam padding compresses under the load of the sail and becomes less and less useful. There is also a significant chafing factor at work when the sail is reefed and sliding against itself.

One Size Fits All?

Before the advent of roller furling, sails were developed into different shapes for different wind angles. They were also made of different material thickness for different wind strengths. But when you use a roller furling system, your only choice of sails becomes a one-size-fits-all.  This may be acceptable inshore on a day sail but it could get you into trouble on an offshore passage.

Generally speaking, a furling head sail is around 130% of the fore-triangle in area and because the sail maker has to plan for the sail being used in all wind angles and both heavy as well as light wind, he or she must use a fairly heavy fabric.  The cut of the sail will be a compromise between a flat upwind sail and a fuller off-wind sail. 

The same 130% head sail with hanks will normally be considerably lighter because it will only be used in lighter airs.  The lighter fabric will set much better in light winds than the heavier furling sail.

For example; with hank on sails, if you are sailing off the wind in the trades, you would probably choose a number 2 or 3 Yankee.  Its high-cut clew makes the leach and foot similar lengths, which keeps the leach from folding in and collapsing the sail when off the wind and it carries the whisker pole well. The high cut clue also has the advantage of keeping the clue out of the water in strong winds.  The Yankee is usually a fuller cut sail for reaching and works well in partnership with a staysail on a cutter rig because of its shape.

If you are beating to windward in light winds, say under 12 knots, you would take down the heavy reaching sail and set a number 1 genoa. With its flatter shape and lighter cloth, it would set much better and provide a huge difference in windward performance.  We carry five different headsails in order to provide a good general selection for a variety of offshore weather conditions.   

I once helped a friend sail his “new” boat up to Tonga from New Zealand.  His only headsail was a 110% roller furling genoa.  It was a conservative choice by the previous owner of the boat to have a smallish headsail for heavy weather sailing.  The problem was that we only had 8 to 12 knots of wind all the way to Tonga and ended up having to motor most of the way.

Difficult to Change

You may be thinking that you can just change your roller furling head sail, and you would be right.  However, the difference between hank-on and furling sails is that in order to change a furling headsail, you must first fully unfurl it. In a rising wind that can be dangerous to the sail, the vessel and to you.

To further complicate the changing of furling sails, as you let off the halyard, the 130% genoa spills out the bottom of the furler and is lose all over the foredeck. That may present problems if you are offshore in a wild sea at night (which is generally when you need to change head sails).

On the other hand, dropping a hank-on sail is fast and easy. By turning your course downwind and blanketing the headsail with the main, you can simply walk forward to the mast and release the halyard. The sail drops like a rock on the foredeck (most of the time) and is always attached by the hanks to the head stay, so it cannot fly off the foredeck.

I keep a few sail ties on the lifelines forward to tie up the sail if we are in comfortable weather conditions. If the weather is brewing into something more sinister, I bag the sail and then take it off the head stay and stow it in the sail locker. Then I bring out the storm jib or whatever sail I think the weather dictates. Hank-on sails allow you to always have the right sail up no matter what the conditions (as long as you have the inventory).   

On Mai Tai, we have designed special sail bags that stay on the head stay while the sail is up.  By sewing zippers in the top and adding ties that fasten to the bow pulpit the sail bag becomes a big basket. All we do is roll the sail up on the deck and dump it in the “basket” and then zip the flaps over the top - simple and fast.

 

Some offshore cruisers with furling gear have opted to install a second headstay just aft of the original and carry a smaller, heavier yankee, which they can switch to easily when the wind picks up.  This seems like a good idea but you must make appropriate adjustments to the rigging to support the additional forestay.  Also, the weight and windage aloft is increased even more and to tack the headsail through the narrow slot between the stays you usually have to roll in the headsail and let it out again on the other side (if they are using the sail furthest forward).

Balancing the Boat

While making offshore passages on Mai Tai we normally steer with a wind vane steering gear.  It has worked flawlessly over many thousands of miles.  The times that is does not perform well is when we have an imbalance in our sail plan, which ust means it time to change the sails.  With roller furling, when you reef your sails in heavy weather by partially rolling your headsail in and reefing your main, the centre of effort of both sails is moved forward, which throws the point of lateral balance further forward and increases the lee helm. We usually need to change headsails or switch down to our staysail to get the boat in balance so the wind vane will be able to steer her properly.  Over the years we have discussed this with many offshore cruisers and found that most with roller furling gave up on wind vane steering gear and just use their auto pilots.  They found that it was just about impossible to keep the boat in balance enough that they could rely on the wind vane.  We have an auto pilot on Mai Tai as well but we use it mostly for steering while we are motoring because of the power consumption. 

Dangers of Roller Furling Sails

I have had a couple of friends lose their rigs in storms because the roller furling lines chafed through and the sail unfurled. Just a few days ago here in the marina a roller furling sail came loose in strong winds and beat itself to death before some helpful sailors from down the dock got it down.

Sail Storage

One of the things I am often reminded of is the lack of storage space for extra sails on modern boats.  It’s as if the boat designers and builders have decided that another cabin and head are more important than a sail locker.  If they are only providing one furling headsail, I guess they would be right.  We are lucky to have found a boat that has a large sail bin forward of the forward cabin where we can carry a full suit of offshore sails.  We also need space to store our sheets because when the current headsail is stowed in its bag on deck we store our sheets out of the sun in our rope locker to prevent un-necessary damage.

Conclusion

I am certainly not trying to change anyone’s mind about furling sails. However, the recent storms through New Zealand got me thinking about how modern boat builders have convinced many of us into thinking that the only way to go sailing is with roller furling headsails. That is simply not true.  Hank-on sails have many advantages and with a little innovative thinking, they can be easy to handle as well. But there is so little written about the advantages that I thought it time to put forward my two cents worth.

IMG_7390.JPG

Mai Tai Sailing.jpg

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Lane Finley said:

Mai Tai Sailing.jpg

You have an old big main - small jib - cutter design. You can use hank-on sails a LOT easier than the later designs with big jibs and small mains. My boat is the opposite of yours and getting to windward requires the correct size jib or you have no power. An offshore trip with front after front meant sail changes for us about every 3-6 hours for days on end.

NFW am I going back to doing that again.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Many of your points are partially valid. Furling acceptance did have some help from the devil. However your big sailbags on the foredeck are not offshore capable. Very likely they would be missing in the morning. Or the contents dragging in the sea. Especially on a boat that looks to be laden with cruising gear to optimise horrendous pitching in a seaway. (While I'm at it...what use are dodger portlights with the dinghy in the way?) Nothing about your overall practice would appear to indicate a concern with weight aloft or drag.

On my earlier, smaller, boat while coastal cruising I often raised the working jib over the still hanked on genoa. The genoa neatly lashed to the rail for the duration of the blow. Saved us from the horror of packing the genoa and stuffing below. Definitely not a thing I would do offshore. Only for pushing thru a fresh afternoon breeze.

Met a sailor in the islands. He had cruised many thousand Pacific ocean miles to get there. He had only a huge genoa on his single furler. I asked if he ever changed it. He said "The dealer put it on. I'm never taking it off." That is the prevailing attitude in modern sailing.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

+1 rollers are for daysailors

I have gotten boats cheap after roller UN-FURLERS did as expected at a dock in a storm

and seen far too many boats hit shore with flapping part UN-furled sails

if you must use a roller jib use a foil slotted stay so you can get the sail off it

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

What is a “foil slotted stay”?  Aren’t all cruising boat furling headsails installed via a slot in a foil?

Mine sure are. I have a double-slotted foil, so in theory I can do 2 sails at once. I also can take the drum off to fly my deck-sweeper genoas.

Is there some setup somewhere that has the sail somehow welded on to the furling gear?

I will agree furling gear can make a mess when it goes wrong, but so can a lot of things.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyone who is having the type of trouble you describe with reefing/furling headsails either has the wrong sails, the wrong furling systems and deck hardware, or lacks the knowledge to use them correctly.

Modern reefing/furling headsails and their systems are a game-changer for shorthanded offshore cruisers and racers.

Chances are with hank-on sails you will either wait too long to change down comfortably, or wait to long to change up when it gets lighter. The last thing you want to do in deteriorating conditions is be on the foredeck if you don't have to be. If the reefing/furling system is sized properly, and the furling line and its means of securing the tail are done properly, it is a heck of a lot easier to keep under control than any sail you drop on the foredeck.

The biggest mistake most people make with reefing/furling headsails is thinking they can go from 150% to 90% on a single sail. Like a lot of people, I made that mistake early in my offshore cruising.

The offshore small genoa North Sails NZ built for me when we were there with our boat reefed very nicely from 117% down to about 90%. If that was too much headsail, it was probably time for the staysail and double-reefed main, which we used up to 45 kt TWS upwind in reasonable comfort. The staysail was designed to be reefed down to the size of a small storm jib, was properly built, and was on a furler the same size as the furler on the genoa. 

My wife and I sailed 40,000 bluewater miles with this arrangement during our circumnavigation, and it never gave us a bit of trouble after we got the proper sails for the boat.

I would either be divorced or dead if I had insisted on sailing around the world with hanked-on headsails.

If you want to race to Bermuda with a full crew, by all means used hanked on headsails (actually set in a luff groove device, which is much more efficient aerodynamically than any hanked-on sail.)

I would rather give up a small amount of righting moment from the weight of the headfoils aloft than change headsails for every five knots variability in windspeed, in which case you will rarely have exactly the right amount of headsail up. With a proper furler/headsail combination, it's easy to optimize and balance the sailplan for virtually every condition.

Your experience may vary.

  • Like 8
Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

What is a “foil slotted stay”?  Aren’t all cruising boat furling headsails installed via a slot in a foil?

hope so now days but in the past it was common to see furling sails with no foil just a wire luff that replaced a head stay

and there are far too many boats that leave the rolled up sail in place even if they could get it off but do not do it

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, nota said:

+1 rollers are for daysailors

I have gotten boats cheap after roller UN-FURLERS did as expected at a dock in a storm

and seen far too many boats hit shore with flapping part UN-furled sails

if you must use a roller jib use a foil slotted stay so you can get the sail off it

Seriously?  You've obviously don't cruise or do shorthanded passages much.

Rule #1 is don't go on deck to reef/furl/unfurl if you don't have to.  Having to truck forward to feed a luff rope into a foil or drag it down when it's sporty is just nuts for offshore sailing unless you are racing and have lots of bodies on board And I've done lots of that.

Modern furlers can be very good especially when looked after and sail design has caught up so that when reefed they perform a lot better. Having a cutter/slutter right with a staysail on a furler means you don't sacrifice sail shape as the wind gets up yet you can still do everything from the cockpit

To the op:

hanked on sails are great for traditionalists but tradition doesn't mean better, it just means old. I know of situation where I would recommend them for any boat no matter how it's used. I lost a front tooth to a hank on an out of control job in a gale in Biscay when I was 25. Never again. 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

lived aboard at anchor 74 to after andrew in coconutt grove

both my boats survived in place at anchor in andrew when very few others did

yes I am old as are most of the stuff I have seen happen

and no I never had or could afford the latest gear

but did do some offshore miles with just the wife

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, kof said:

Seriously?  You've obviously don't cruise or do shorthanded passages much.

Rule #1 is don't go on deck to reef/furl/unfurl if you don't have to.  Having to truck forward to feed a luff rope into a foil or drag it down when it's sporty is just nuts for offshore sailing unless you are racing and have lots of bodies on board And I've done lots of that.

Modern furlers can be very good especially when looked after and sail design has caught up so that when reefed they perform a lot better. Having a cutter/slutter right with a staysail on a furler means you don't sacrifice sail shape as the wind gets up yet you can still do everything from the cockpit

To the op:

hanked on sails are great for traditionalists but tradition doesn't mean better, it just means old. I know of situation where I would recommend them for any boat no matter how it's used. I lost a front tooth to a hank on an out of control job in a gale in Biscay when I was 25. Never again. 

 

Sounds like you have neither the skills or the physical capability to handle hanks. Best you stick with your unfurler.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Why does it have to be either/or camps.  Webb Chiles rounded Cape Horn back in the 1970s on a boat that I believe had headsail furling - early generation gear.  (Just did a search and found this article  which seems to confirm it, but I’m pretty sure I read it somewhere as well - likely in his book “The Ocean Waits”, about that voyage.) Lots of successful voyages with furlers.  And failures.

Likewise, plenty of successful voyages have been made with hank-on sails.  Properly dealt with/stowed, there’s little to go wrong with them. 

Furlers do fail, sails to unfurl, but so do hank-on systems have their flaws and merits.

Personally, I’d vote for a cutter rigged boat with hank-on sails as simple and cheap.  Wait - that’s what I had until I installed roller furling... :-)

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, MRS OCTOPUS said:

Sounds like you have neither the skills or the physical capability to handle hanks. Best you stick with your unfurler.

I have done plenty of it and have no intention to do it again. I also don't hand-start my car.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Blue Crab said:

Thanks, cap. No one here knows any of this stuff!

I hope everyone is paying attention. This is textbook use of the sarcasm font. 

Well done, sir.

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, MRS OCTOPUS said:

Sounds like you have neither the skills or the physical capability to handle hanks. Best you stick with your unfurler.

Have the balls to "Play the ball and not the man". Argue the point without the snide remarks. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, kof said:

Seriously?  You've obviously don't cruise or do shorthanded passages much.

Rule #1 is don't go on deck to reef/furl/unfurl if you don't have to.  Having to truck forward to feed a luff rope into a foil or drag it down when it's sporty is just nuts for offshore sailing unless you are racing and have lots of bodies on board And I've done lots of that.

Modern furlers can be very good especially when looked after and sail design has caught up so that when reefed they perform a lot better. Having a cutter/slutter right with a staysail on a furler means you don't sacrifice sail shape as the wind gets up yet you can still do everything from the cockpit

To the op:

hanked on sails are great for traditionalists but tradition doesn't mean better, it just means old. I know of situation where I would recommend them for any boat no matter how it's used. I lost a front tooth to a hank on an out of control job in a gale in Biscay when I was 25. Never again. 

 

11 posts in before someone questions another's skill or knowledge. It's not PA but getting there.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, MRS OCTOPUS said:

Sounds like you have neither the skills or the physical capability to handle hanks. Best you stick with your unfurler.

And only two more before we get the obligatory insult!

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, kof said:

Have the balls to "Play the ball and not the man". Argue the point without the snide remarks. 

Seems like you started it. 

4 hours ago, kof said:

Seriously?  You've obviously don't cruise or do shorthanded passages much.

 

How about we all work to keep thing civil here? @Remodel Thanks for your work towards this goal!

Link to post
Share on other sites

http://sailingmaitai.com/uncategorized/leaving-auckland/

Lane sailing in Southern Ocean? it looks like the Hauraki Gulf Great Barrier bound to me and it will be Furlex all the way for me grew up on a 6ft bowsprit with hank ons no thanks never again.

The last furling Genoa I brought had no foam luff just a bolt rope and in a luff groove was easy peasy to douse if required without the bulk.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, Upp3 said:

And racers. Or at least every competitor in Vendee Globe seemed to like rollers over hanks.

Yes but they don't use their sail partially furled...

I am not sure which camp I am in....

I hate changing sails on the foredeck and I hate the shape of a partially furled genoa/jib....

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I’d like to hear about slab reefing jibs with zippers and best practice with modern materials for dealing with the clew. It seems like you could fold it around the leach. What do the minis do?

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

Yes but they don't use their sail partially furled...

I am not sure which camp I am in....

I hate changing sails on the foredeck and I hate the shape of a partially furled genoa/jib....

 

With this selection of headsails there is no need for any partial furling....

DBE5F5A4-8FD9-4B1D-9544-251BEC422754.jpeg.4a81447ed5ac0ab28fb7437833a193cb.jpeg

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Kenny Dumas said:

I’d like to hear about slab reefing jibs with zippers and best practice with modern materials for dealing with the clew. It seems like you could fold it around the leach. What do the minis do?

The minis reef their heavy jib into an ORC...

I think that to reef you add a lazy sheet to the new sheet and the new tack is connected to a downhauler. Let some halyard, pull in the downhauler, tension the new sheet and go forward to zip the flapping bit. I haven't had the opportunity to do it myself so can't be more precise than this.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

With this selection of headsails there is no need for any partial furling....

DBE5F5A4-8FD9-4B1D-9544-251BEC422754.jpeg.4a81447ed5ac0ab28fb7437833a193cb.jpeg

 

Yes but only the J1 stay up all the time...

Link to post
Share on other sites

Some mini's have zipper panels on their jibs. I don't know if they can remove the 'reefed' cloth. On any larger sail, a zipper could not hold the loads - but could be used to enable rolling up the 'reefed' cloth & securing it. Waaaay back I sailed with some jibs where the extra cloth was secured by sail ties. This did NOT work - the roll caught water & worked loose quickly

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Kenny Dumas said:

I’d like to hear about slab reefing jibs with zippers and best practice with modern materials for dealing with the clew. It seems like you could fold it around the leach. What do the minis do?

Watch The Sailing Frenchman on YouTube - he does a demo of his reefing jib on his Mini. (It’s in English.)

Link to post
Share on other sites

A wadded mess of sail is bad enough, but what do you do at the clew to avoid a bludgeon when tacking?  I was thinking about folding the whole panel up to the zipper and folding the clew somehow. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, SASSAFRASS said:

I can't think of any reason to have a hank on sail on a boat other cost or asthetics.  There really doesn't seem to be a practical argument outside of that.

I can think of one - a racing foil SUCKS offshore when short handed. You drop the sail and it is loose and likely half overboard. If I were single or short-handed and did not have furling gear, I would rather have hanks than a foil. YMMV

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites


 

5 minutes ago, SASSAFRASS said:

I can't think of any reason to have a hank on sail on a boat other cost or asthetics.  There really doesn't seem to be a practical argument outside of that.

Depends where you sail.

The lee of hilly or mountainous terrain in higher latitudes makes sailing with furling head-sails a challenge at times. It can be expensive on large headsails when the lemons line up. I've had a lot of good experiences with furlers and a few really bad ones.

Some boats have much safer fore-decks than others and lend themselves better to hank on sail handling. My current boat, it's a larger boat with twin headstays with two different sails that stay hanked on for a passage. they lash behind a  reasonably high bulwark when down. I found it's as convenient as a furler even sailing shorthanded once they are hanked on.  Getting them in and out of the forpeak is another matter.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I've done quite a few miles coastal and offshore with hanked on sails, and also with furling sails.  I prefer furling sails, and I think sailing double handed most of the time we sail boats far closer to their potential than we would with hank-ons. Mostly because it's easier to increase sail area again when the wind decreases.

Over 75K miles and quite a few decades I haven't had a headsail furler fail on me yet. In 1985 delivered a Moody 42 ketch from Puerto Banus to Halifax, chafed halfway through the bronze hanks on the genoa after 16 days close hauled out of 20 from the Azores. Good thing the Atlantic isn't much wider.

Like any sailing gear, you need to buy the right stuff, set it up right, and get the right sails to match that are designed for the boat/application. Then you need to survey it constantly, just like all the other parts of the boat. No surprises. 

If you buy a Profurl or similar (fixed tack), rip the hanks off your genoa, sew on a luff tape and then expect it to perform partially furled that is a big miss. If you buy a Harken or similar (tack swivel), and design a sail for partial furling, it works pretty well. 

Just to establish my trad boat cred, photo of my first cruising boat from 1980 attached.

As always, YMMV. 

Vaiger.jpeg

Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, SASSAFRASS said:

I can't think of any reason to have a hank on sail on a boat other cost or asthetics.  There really doesn't seem to be a practical argument outside of that.

I should have added in the context of full sail being used, the reefing thing is very much per situation.  I can't think of a instance where if cost or asthetics were not a issue it would make more sense to use a hank on vs a furler, even twin head stays can be set up fine for two furlers.  

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we have to more specific with the goal posts.

These days most cruisers aren’t sailors. Motor sailors at best.

The best choice for the majority would be Furlers.

Does anyone else see the irony in paying top dollar for the latest and greatest hi tech shape holding cloth ,  cut perfectly and then rolling it up a bit.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Priscilla said:

http://sailingmaitai.com/uncategorized/leaving-auckland/

Lane sailing in Southern Ocean? it looks like the Hauraki Gulf Great Barrier bound to me and it will be Furlex all the way for me grew up on a 6ft bowsprit with hank ons no thanks never again.

The last furling Genoa I brought had no foam luff just a bolt rope and in a luff groove was easy peasy to douse if required without the bulk.

 

In this video you have posted we are sailing up the coat of Stewart Island and crossing Foveaux Strait.  If you haven't been down there, you should definitely go.  Stewart Island is a wonderful place to cruise!  We are based in Auckland and love the Hauraki Gulf and Great Barrier Island but New Zealand has so much more to offer to cruisers willing to head further south.  Fiordland is a magic place to cruise.  Cheers

Link to post
Share on other sites

A question from someone with almost zero experience using a furler:

Could a furler be used without a winch? (Assume a headsail of 150 square feet.)

If not, about how much furling line "length" must be taken in during the furl? (Trying to visualize using a tackle)

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Panope said:

A question from someone with almost zero experience using a furler:

Could a furler be used without a winch? (Assume a headsail of 150 square feet.)

If not, about how much furling line "length" must be taken in during the furl? (Trying to visualize using a tackle)

 

My Witch jib is 134 sq ft. It's on a Wickham-Martin type furler that I built myself. No winches for the jib, typical Tom sail plan.

He specified hank-on, I didn't and still don't like that idea on the end of a 7' bowsprit regardless of downhauls etc so I built a furling jib using Dyneema instead of wire for the luff line.

IME so far it works fine, it's inboard of the fixed forestay and I can take the entire sail down if I think I need to. Roll it up then slacken the halyard, lash the rolled sail to the lifelines.There's usually 2 of us sailing and our practice is for the person aft to let out the sheet slowly as the person at the fwd set of belaying pins takes in the furling line. Could run the furling line aft if I thought it necessary but there's good working room and fully welded lifelines so way more secure than the majority of boats.

Flip side it's either furled or out, no reefing as the shape isn't there, and you can't get the same tension as with a foil. But it's a junk rig and you're not going to get the tension anyway - I can get sufficient to make my forestay go a touch loose. The Dyneema is at least 2X the breaking strain of the forestay wire anyway.

So yeah at least in my case you can use a furler without any winches at all.

FKT

Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Panope said:

Could a furler be used without a winch? (Assume a headsail of 150 square feet.)

If not, about how much furling line "length" must be taken in during the furl? (Trying to visualize using a tackle)

I furl my 782 sq ft genoa without a winch. (A bedsheet is 80 sq ft...) No tackle. Just a line on the Harken drum.  Sometimes use a winch n a blow...very carefully. Fully furling takes maybe 30 feet of 9mm line (maybe more...guessing).

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lane Finley said:

In this video you have posted we are sailing up the coat of Stewart Island and crossing Foveaux Strait.  If you haven't been down there, you should definitely go.  Stewart Island is a wonderful place to cruise!  We are based in Auckland and love the Hauraki Gulf and Great Barrier Island but New Zealand has so much more to offer to cruisers willing to head further south.  Fiordland is a magic place to cruise.  Cheers

Nice lines your boat has Lane and that counter stern sure brings back a flood of boyhood memories looking at your NZ sail number 284 our last yacht was 283.

Boat on the right Waione Chas Bailey 1907 was the family yacht when I was a boy .

boatmaintenance1939.jpeg.7d4c5d906fdfee2a8d33778a2c484b4d.jpeg

 

 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Panope said:

A question from someone with almost zero experience using a furler:

Could a furler be used without a winch? (Assume a headsail of 150 square feet.)

If not, about how much furling line "length" must be taken in during the furl? (Trying to visualize using a tackle)

 

Yes but depends on the setup. I’ve used powered and single line furlers (a continuous line running in a loop so you don’t end up with a tonne of rope in the cockpit). Run it through low friction “blocks” , take the load off the sheet when furling and you do it all without a winch.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Priscilla said:

Nice lines your boat has Lane and that counter stern sure brings back a flood of boyhood memories looking at your NZ sail number 284 our last yacht was 283.

Boat on the right Waione Chas Bailey 1907 was the family yacht when I was a boy .

boatmaintenance1939.jpeg.7d4c5d906fdfee2a8d33778a2c484b4d.jpeg

 

 

Wow!  What a great boat to grow up on.  Didn't John Street buy Waione for the wooden boat trust and restore her in about 2003?  Great photo! 

Mai Tai was launched in 1968 and is the fiberglas version of the Rhodes wooden yawls the the US Navy sailed as training boats.  Her sail number will be from a different ledger.

Copy (2) of DSCN0007.JPG

Copy (2) of DSCN0008.JPG

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lane Finley said:

Didn't John Street buy Waione for the wooden boat trust and restore her in about 2003?

The Waione sadly has been shed bound for many moons somebody else's story to tell not mine.

Was Mai Tai originally rigged as yawl like this Hinkley build was.

12353.thumb.jpeg.be8138d740dfda549dc7243dfb1bdcba.jpeg

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Priscilla said:

The Waione sadly has been shed bound for many moons somebody else's story to tell not mine.

Was Mai Tai originally rigged as yawl like this Hinkley build was.

12353.thumb.jpeg.be8138d740dfda549dc7243dfb1bdcba.jpeg

 

Beautiful picture.  What boat is that? 

Mai Tai was always a cutter.  However, there were twelve sisterships built for the Navy (see Navy 44's on this website) out of the same mold that were yawls.  Apparently, in the early 1960's, the racing gurus started to realise that the masthead sloop was the best rig for winning races, so they built 6 boats with that rig, eighteen altogether out of the original molds.  These were very early fiberglass boats and many of them are still around today.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Very compelling reasoning in favor of hank-ons. 

My problem is my memory of cruising/sailing with hank-on headsails, is still strong.

I realize (for me) anything that eases going from moored to sailing means, I sail more of my miles. And coastal sailing for me often means few miles but they are glorious under sail as opposed to under power. 

Many innovations have made my sailing easier in just the last few decades. Sail handling and GPS have me sailing more of my miles over my hank-on and Loran in my past.

I plead lazy and pay the fine. 

886449289_October30galeshreddedjib.thumb.jpg.477957fe3ca36db7ec302cb5b2ba77ec.jpg 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, MRS OCTOPUS said:

I think we have to more specific with the goal posts.

These days most cruisers aren’t sailors. Motor sailors at best.

The best choice for the majority would be Furlers.

Does anyone else see the irony in paying top dollar for the latest and greatest hi tech shape holding cloth ,  cut perfectly and then rolling it up a bit.

 

 

That's more than a bit condescending, unless you are just being deliberately provocative. 

There is just as much irony in someone paying a fortune for the latest and greatest sails, having only a limited understanding of how to trim them, and looking to blast around on a reach for a few hours on a sunny afternoon before heading back to the dock or mooring. Or are best sails "wasted" on anyone who is not a grand prix racing sailor?

For better or worse, cruising sometimes involves sailing, motorsailing, and even plain old motoring.  Anyone crossing an ocean in a sailboat is more than likely to do it primarily by sailing, as few sailboats--even those with a deckload of jerry cans--have the fuel capacity to motor great distances.

Sure, there are plenty of cruisers who just stumble their way around the planet. But do you really think "real" sailors don't use furling/reefing headsails? I've got a lot of people you should meet who think otherwise. They include some of the best sailors in the world, both cruising and racing.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Panope said:

A question from someone with almost zero experience using a furler:

Could a furler be used without a winch? (Assume a headsail of 150 square feet.)

If not, about how much furling line "length" must be taken in during the furl? (Trying to visualize using a tackle)

 

You actually try to unload the sail enough while reefing/furling it that you don't always need a winch. That is more typical for furling than reefing, however, at least on a larger boat. It is a fine balance to get the sail to furl/reef properly between ease of pulling the furling  line and keeping just enough tension on the sheet to create a tight reef or furl and keep the sail fully under control while doing it.

On my heavy 40-footer, the genoa furling line led down the starboard side, the staysail to the port. The lines went through big clutches, and had a fair lead to the secondary self-tailing cockpit winches for use if necessary.

With a headsail of 150 square feet, you should rarely if ever need to use a winch on the furling line. Just ease the sheet a bit more.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I should have read this thread 3 years ago before I bought the new staysail for the cutter. I went with hank on. Now all I need is the drop bag with zipper top and I’ll leave it on the deck for the season.

I do have a roller furler on a 20’ Hereshoff and it is dead simple to furl. Of course, the sail is polyester so it can’t be partially furled so it’s either all in or all out. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, MRS OCTOPUS said:

I think we have to more specific with the goal posts.

These days most cruisers aren’t sailors. Motor sailors at best.

The best choice for the majority would be Furlers.

Does anyone else see the irony in paying top dollar for the latest and greatest hi tech shape holding cloth ,  cut perfectly and then rolling it up a bit.

 

 

Just a wee bit or irony here.  Coast wise yes alot of motoring going on, but when things are easy people are more inclined to sail.  Alot of seasonal places will be a downwind one way and a motorboat show the other. If you were to have a older boat all hank on sails, no stack pack or easy main setup, in mast etc, it's probably going to be sailed alot less in the same condition as something that is easy to use.  The average cruiser probably isn't going to be going crazy on crinkly sails either.  The safety factor of a furler for double handed sailing is enough for me to negate any other wins for not going that way.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Does anyone have any experience with Colligo Marine's ELHF furling system or similar?  The system appears to consist of a continuous line furler attached to a torsion rope headstay.  The sail is hanked to the stay using soft shackles which allows you to raise and lower it as well as roll it up.  Looks a lot lighter than the usual setup with an aluminum extrusion.

Seems like it might offer some of the best of both worlds.

colligo-furler.webp

ELHF+1_0+system+complete.JPG?format=1000

Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, MFH125 said:

Does anyone have any experience with Colligo Marine's ELHF furling system or similar?  The system appears to consist of a continuous line furler attached to a torsion rope headstay.  The sail is hanked to the stay using soft shackles which allows you to raise and lower it as well as roll it up.  Looks a lot lighter than the usual setup with an aluminum extrusion.

Seems like it might offer some of the best of both worlds.

colligo-furler.webp

ELHF+1_0+system+complete.JPG?format=1000

This and the Ubi Maior seems like very interesting developments. I'm thinking of adding furling to my staysail, but I'm not excited to give up the ability change sails easily.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, MFH125 said:

Does anyone have any experience with Colligo Marine's ELHF furling system or similar?  The system appears to consist of a continuous line furler attached to a torsion rope headstay.  The sail is hanked to the stay using soft shackles which allows you to raise and lower it as well as roll it up.  Looks a lot lighter than the usual setup with an aluminum extrusion.

Seems like it might offer some of the best of both worlds.

colligo-furler.webp

ELHF+1_0+system+complete.JPG?format=1000

^ It is a sail eater. 

Hanked on sails are still the best choice on smaller cruising vessels. One aspect of head sails that really hasn't been addressed is the use of dynema in standing and running rigging. Furling headsails sown on a dynema stay will dramatically reduce wear on the cloth when furled and delivered the best of both worlds. The ability to put the headsails away that quickly reduces windage and cleans up the fore deck sounds good to me.

I just ordered a set of 1.5 oz ripstop nylon downwind sails like i described above to complement my dacron hank-on upwind sails. because of the materials, they were significally less expensive than dacron or other materials. Moreover they will take less space up when stored on the boat. I am eagarly looking forward to comparing them over the next few years.

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, MRS OCTOPUS said:

These days most cruisers aren’t sailors. Motor sailors at best.

One of the few benefits of getting older is most of us couldn't care much less about these types of youthful observations. Like my old pop used to say, "sure beats sitting on the seawall." 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Kris Cringle said:

Very compelling reasoning in favor of hank-ons. 

My problem is my memory of cruising/sailing with hank-on headsails, is still strong.

I realize (for me) anything that eases going from moored to sailing means, I sail more of my miles. And coastal sailing for me often means few miles but they are glorious under sail as opposed to under power. 

Many innovations have made my sailing easier in just the last few decades. Sail handling and GPS have me sailing more of my miles over my hank-on and Loran in my past.

I plead lazy and pay the fine. 

886449289_October30galeshreddedjib.thumb.jpg.477957fe3ca36db7ec302cb5b2ba77ec.jpg 

Great shot!  It shows a roller furling jib flogging itself to death partially unrolled in the strong winds.  Cheers

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Black Jack said:

^ It is a sail eater. 

Hanked on sails are still the best choice on smaller cruising vessels. One aspect of head sails that really hasn't been addressed is the use of dynema in standing and running rigging. Furling headsails sown on a dynema stay will dramatically reduce wear on the cloth when furled and delivered the best of both worlds. The ability to put the headsails away that quickly reduces windage and cleans up the fore deck sounds good to me.

Why's it a sail eater?  Where is the wear coming from?

My parents have a Stone Horse with a yankee jib setup as you describe: sewn onto a torsion rope.  The system works great, but you can't lower the sail without also lowering the whole stay.  That's a big complication for most boats. On the Stone Horse the primary forestay is for the staysail, and the rig is bulletproof whether the jib is up or down, so it's not an issue.  The jib is sort of "set flying" if you will from the bowsprit.

536cfb8efc2d0e024cfeead029136db2.jpg

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, MFH125 said:

Why's it a sail eater?  Where is the wear coming from?

My parents have a Stone Horse with a yankee jib setup as you describe: sewn onto a torsion rope.  The system works great, but you can't lower the sail without also lowering the whole stay.  That's a big complication for most boats. On the Stone Horse the primary forestay is for the staysail, and the rig is bulletproof whether the jib is up or down, so it's not an issue.  The jib is sort of "set flying" if you will from the bowsprit.

536cfb8efc2d0e024cfeead029136db2.jpg

 

Great boat! 

Like you pointed out on the Stone Horse the primary forestay is for the staysail, and the rig is bulletproof whether the jib is up or down but still uses a jib boom.  In the cutter rig set up, the jib does fly.  The furler on the boat above is old school and part of the tradition. Gotta respect that. If that boat changed out what you have with a modern dynema furler, they could use other modern sails and would be able to have a more flexable tack.

It turns out when using a exterior torsion line that runs like a stay, the upper part of the sails get chewed and wear at a pretty fast rate. Adding additional material up there changes the shape and power of the sail as well as adds weight. In most applications, the snuffer sock is still the perfered way to go when it comes to flying sails. Most folks rather work everything from the cockpit, making the torsion furler seem an easier, more comfotable effort at the expense of life of the sail.

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Panope said:

A question from someone with almost zero experience using a furler:

Could a furler be used without a winch? (Assume a headsail of 150 square feet.)

If not, about how much furling line "length" must be taken in during the furl? (Trying to visualize using a tackle)

 

The manual for my Harken gear specifically tells you if you need a winch - STOP - something is wrong.

Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, Blue Crab said:

One of the few benefits of getting older is most of us couldn't care much less about these types of youthful observations. Like my old pop used to say, "sure beats sitting on the seawall." 

^ THIS

I couldn't give even 1/4 of a shit if someone thinks I am not a real sailor unless they volunteer to come do all my sail changes for me. After about the second time they wrestle the 170 down they'll be begging for the furling gear to get bolted back on :rolleyes:

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, kent_island_sailor said:

The manual for my Harken gear specifically tells you if you need a winch - STOP - something is wrong.

I broke a furling line between Hawaii and Canada...don’t know for sure but I think it was Harken (winches on board were)...and operator error :-) (don’t recall now but the owner, with tens of thousands of singlehanded miles, had probably directed me, as crew, to use the winch for furling...I probably should’ve been a bit more cautious...).

Sure, nothing like that would’ve happened with hank ons, but there is no fucking way you’re going to go with hank sails on a Santa Cruz 50, no matter what that anonymous cat on an internet forum extols their virtues :-)

(As an aside, my Profurl, with brand new bearings, is a little bit stiff.  Turns out Profurl uses truck wheel bearing in their units, the grease gets a bit stiff (when it’s cold), I guess in contrast to Harken’s ball bearings - so a winch might be useful sometimes, used cautiously!)

I didn’t so much mind hank-ons on my 33’er but the sails were a pain to stow below.  33-ish feels like the upper limits of hanks-ons for me, other than my hank-on staysail, which is super easy to deal with.  I wouldn’t spend the money to switch to furling on that  - minimum $3000, unnecessary expense - unless a bigger boat staysail, maybe, or (more likely) if planning an extended Southern Ocean voyage, where that sail would get used a lot.  Not that such a voyage would be a sensible idea. :-)

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, MFH125 said:

Does anyone have any experience with Colligo Marine's ELHF furling system or similar?  The system appears to consist of a continuous line furler attached to a torsion rope headstay.  The sail is hanked to the stay using soft shackles which allows you to raise and lower it as well as roll it up.  Looks a lot lighter than the usual setup with an aluminum extrusion.

Seems like it might offer some of the best of both worlds.

colligo-furler.webp

ELHF+1_0+system+complete.JPG?format=1000

I can't comment on whether it eats sails, but it seems to be the opposite of how I normally think of roller furling.  With a foil, the sail is pulled in by the luff, and the tack and head swivels mean that the leech and foot are drawn in as the sail furls (force goes foil -> luff -> sail -> leech and foot).  In this one, the leach and foot are getting pulled in by the furler, and they draw the sail in (force goes tack/head -> leach/foot -> sail). 

So I'd be worried first, about how much stress is going through the leech and foot, stressing hte sail in weird directions.  I would also assume that the bagging problem when partly furled would be worse with this arrangement, than with swivel tack and a foil.  I'm guessing this might be intended for furling, but not reefing (just looked at diagram, and it does say non-reefable).

It also seems that this arrangement doesn't let you drop the sail without unfurling it first (unlike the torsion luff versions), since it appears the stay is permanently mounted. 

Edit to add, but at least when you drop it the hanks would keep it controlled on the deck.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Lane Finley said:

Great shot!  It shows a roller furling jib flogging itself to death partially unrolled in the strong winds.  Cheers

I've witnesses two destroyed that stayed furled (furling line held). Each time the wind was not above 40 knots. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Corryvreckan said:

I can't comment on whether it eats sails, but it seems to be the opposite of how I normally think of roller furling.  With a foil, the sail is pulled in by the luff, and the tack and head swivels mean that the leech and foot are drawn in as the sail furls (force goes foil -> luff -> sail -> leech and foot).  In this one, the leach and foot are getting pulled in by the furler, and they draw the sail in (force goes tack/head -> leach/foot -> sail). 

So I'd be worried first, about how much stress is going through the leech and foot, stressing hte sail in weird directions.  I would also assume that the bagging problem when partly furled would be worse with this arrangement, than with swivel tack and a foil.  I'm guessing this might be intended for furling, but not reefing (just looked at diagram, and it does say non-reefable).

Good point, the furling load is concentrated in the corners of the sail, not spread out along the whole luff.  What consequences that has for sail longevity I don't know.  I suppose it depends on your sails, how they're made, etc.

@Elegua mentioned a similar product from Ubi Maior which looks interesting, too.  They advertise it as being able to reef as well as furl.  The reefed genoa in the video looks a little ugly to me, but then so do most roller reefing products.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Can anyone decipher what was going on here? 

Boat was proceeding under engine power and no attempt to was being made to take in this sail.

Do I see hanks on this headsail?  

Again, I know little about furlers.

Steve

 

  wtENHKE.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

3 minutes ago, Panope said:

Can anyone decipher what was going on here? 

Boat was proceeding under engine power and no attempt to was being made to take in this sail.

Do I see hanks on this headsail?  

Again, I know little about furlers.

Steve

 

  wtENHKE.jpg

Might be a bit hard to furl with half the sail in the water. Isn't the generally accepted term, "wanking"? Though here they've added a couple of layers. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Panope said:

Can anyone decipher what was going on here? 

Boat was proceeding under engine power and no attempt to was being made to take in this sail.

Do I see hanks on this headsail?  

Again, I know little about furlers.

Steve

My first thought was a hanked on jib with a jammed halyard.  But I think those dark bits are joints in the furler extrusion, maybe? If you look at the top of the mast it looks like an extrusion that has collapsed in a number of places.

ksnip_20210411-194927.png.614781e8fedd50ca9bfd56cd8deb740b.png

Link to post
Share on other sites

I’ve seen many shredded furler jibs and genoas in the last 20 years to make me happy to have a hanked on headsail. We get local squalls that produce well over 50MPH winds for several minutes at a time during our summer months. Perhaps a snuffer sock would protect them, but I like my sails down on deck in a storm.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Blue Crab said:

One of the few benefits of getting older is most of us couldn't care much less about these types of youthful observations. Like my old pop used to say, "sure beats sitting on the seawall." 

:P Yup. I resemble that. Not that I motor, more that I know how to do things more than one way now.

I've had both, and honestly, I don't have strong feelings. There were things about hank-on sails I liked. But that was on a cat with a big foredeck, that made dealing with a hank on sail relaxing. Huge bow sail locker. As long as you kept control of the luff, not much could go wrong, even off the wind.

  • I had a furler jam once. I pulled the sail down the foil and replaced the bearings a few days later. Otherwise, bear off, ease the sheets some, and roll it right up. How much you bear off and ease depends on the wind strength.
  • Sails can roller reef well enough for a cruiser IF they are fitted with a foam luff pad.  The draft can stay OK through the full range. It also helps to have a reasonably high clew, so that the lead does not need to be move so far.
  • A really flat hank-on storm sail is nice with a double reefed main. Doesn't need to be a storm. I think this is even more true of fast multihulls. You can feather a flat sail.
  • You can run with jib-only with a hank-on sail and KNOW you can get it down, without a main to blanket it. Not 100% true with furlers.
  • Furlers are way more fun per mile.
  • Most boats don't have a sail locker suitable for hank-on sail inventory anymore. It's a drag if you have to fold them, drag them through the cabin, and then find a place for them. Bag on deck suck for reasons others have pointed out.
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Lane Finley said:

Beautiful picture.  What boat is that? 

Mai Tai was always a cutter.  However, there were twelve sisterships built for the Navy (see Navy 44's on this website) out of the same mold that were yawls.  Apparently, in the early 1960's, the racing gurus started to realise that the masthead sloop was the best rig for winning races, so they built 6 boats with that rig, eighteen altogether out of the original molds.  These were very early fiberglass boats and many of them are still around today.

A E Luders 44 built by Henry R. Hinckley Company as Manset Boat Yard - U.S. Naval Academy Yawl at Sea Trials.

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/luders-44

 

C3940E5A-9DEB-4057-8CD3-9830A3DFB631.thumb.jpeg.b5776162e15b3058571fde3d0422bac0.jpeg

 

6B554F04-206E-42A4-A4DA-0BFCAC8C8AD0.thumb.jpeg.948bdd011946c68bac49d5ae985fe77c.jpeg

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Kris Cringle said:

I've witnesses two destroyed that stayed furled (furling line held). Each time the wind was not above 40 knots. 

User error. They didn't furl it tightly or the sheets were not tight. Usually the first reason. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, andykane said:

Looks like they tore the bottom off the sail, dragged it over the side, and can't/haven't managed to grab it and haul it down.

+1

For some reason when you go upwind a genoa sometimes tends to hoist iself.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Sail4beer said:

I’ve seen many shredded furler jibs and genoas in the last 20 years to make me happy to have a hanked on headsail. We get local squalls that produce well over 50MPH winds for several minutes at a time during our summer months. Perhaps a snuffer sock would protect them, but I like my sails down on deck in a storm.

My furling gear has been on 35 years and no shredding so far.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I'll give you all one thing - IMHO anyone with a furled sail still up in a named storm in a marina needs their insurance voided :angry:

IME every big wind gets one or two in town. It's just lubberly. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Joints on a furler foil are never that prominent AND further apart. Those are hanks. Jammed halyard? 

I agree. That sail isn't coming down without at least someone going forward to try to pull down the luff.

Given that the mainsail cover is on, the tail of the headsail halyard may not be accessible at the mast.

Link to post
Share on other sites

People get lazy with furling headsails, and often leave them on moorings without a proper furl, which includes multiple tight sheet warps around the sail, the furling line made fast, the ends of the sheets made fast, and a couple of sail ties around the luff.

It isn't rocket science, but common sense can be in surprisingly short supply at times.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

I’ve seen many shredded furler jibs and genoas in the last 20 years to make me happy to have a hanked on headsail. We get local squalls that produce well over 50MPH winds for several minutes at a time during our summer months. Perhaps a snuffer sock would protect them, but I like my sails down on deck in a storm.

We get to see quite a few around here.  Shorthanded and simply unable to get them furled in a sudden squall.   Furling mains get shredded for the same reason. Sometimes shit happens and even all going well It can be a skilled act at times to furl a Genoa, playing the helm,sheet and furling line in harmony .