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In recent years, Chicago Mackinac has had about 50% more entries than Bayview Mackinac. As of today, Bayview is at 180 entries (up 10 boats versus 2019) and Chicago is at 222 (down 50 boats versus 2019). Any theories for why Bayview race is showing growth while Chicago is declining?  Did running the Bayview race in 2020 keep more boats in the game while Chicago turned boats off by cancelling the race in 2020?

 

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It's too early to look into those numbers.  Also, BYC is the second race this year, so there can be more boats from Lake Michigan registered on odd years.

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I think Bayview gained a lot of credibility running the race in spite of all the opposition last year.  Gotta believe they're going to pull it off again this year.

Note that Bayview doesn't have any of our Canadian friends entered at this time, and the border is still closed.   So that number should actually be higher than it is.

Glex is right, with Bayview running second, this is the "easy" year for Lake Michigan boats to do the race.  Just a short delivery from the Island down to PH, then race back up.  Alternate years that can be one bloody looooonnnnng delivery all the way around the mitten.  Full SuperMac for the Chicago delivery crews.

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1 hour ago, glexpress said:

It's too early to look into those numbers.  Also, BYC is the second race this year, so there can be more boats from Lake Michigan registered on odd years.

My post compared to 2019 an odd year with BYC second so it should be an apples to apples comparison.

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6 hours ago, Donkey687 said:

My post compared to 2019 an odd year with BYC second so it should be an apples to apples comparison.

There's really too many externalities to be certain.  What I would say is make the comparison in June, after each race has their entry deadline.

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1 hour ago, glexpress said:

There's really too many externalities to be certain.  What I would say is make the comparison in June, after each race has their entry deadline.

Chicago had an early entry deadline of April 1 with the entry fee going up after that date.  Bayview has no early entry. Thus, I don't see any reason for a bigger surge in Chicago entries in the coming weeks, but maybe many Chicago owners are waiting to see how covid plays out over the next few weeks before committing to the race while Detroit owners are less concerned? Perhaps, but I think time will show that Chicago is facing a big decline while Bayview race will see some growth.

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39 minutes ago, eastern motors said:

Are the state/city owned marinas in Chicago putting boats in this year?

As of now yes, normal operation starting May 1st. 

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7 minutes ago, PB2207 said:

As of now yes, normal operation starting May 1st. 

But there's a definite COVID cloud over the Chicago waterfront.  No real assurance from the powers that be (Pritzker & Lighfoot) that the lakefront will be reopened, parks, bikepaths, beaches and marinas....  let alone food and beverage services. 

One month out from COLORS and NOOD, and very limited registrations.  I believe a lot of boats are taking a wait and see approach. 

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9 minutes ago, GABA said:

No real assurance from the powers that be (Pritzker & Lighfoot) that the lakefront will be reopened, parks, bikepaths, beaches and marinas.... 

While that's true Chicago's head covid doc. (can't remember her name) has said in pressers they will be encouraging outdoor activities this year, not restricting them like last year. While there's definitely a wait a see approach (since those two seem to change their mind every other week) like last year but I'm of the opinion they will be focusing their efforts and attention on the vaccine rollout more than restrictions. Michigan's govt. seems to be taking the same mentality, people are too fed up with more restrictions, just get vaccines in arms as quick as possible. 

 

 

Edit: And the vaccine rollout is coming out quickly as of the last couple weeks. There's a lot of people finally able to get shots here in the city or even going down state/Indiana to get them. I got my first dose last week and I've seen most in my age group (30-40) able to get an appointment recently.

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The lakefront, with the exception of "swimming beaches" has been open since last June. Some of the lakefront access roads through the parks were closed to cars until a few months ago but the parks/trails, etc have been open. Spring frostbite sailing has been going on out of Belmont for a few weeks now. Although the harbors don't officially open until May 1st, they allow boats in as early as April 15th. A few boats have already trickled into Belmont.

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18 hours ago, Donkey687 said:

Chicago had an early entry deadline of April 1 with the entry fee going up after that date. 

Boats that entered last year I think got their entry fees applied to this year, so the entry deadline (as far as $$ goes) is I think irrelevant.

 

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16 hours ago, PB2207 said:

While that's true Chicago's head covid doc. (can't remember her name) has said in pressers they will be encouraging outdoor activities this year, not restricting them like last year. While there's definitely a wait a see approach (since those two seem to change their mind every other week) like last year but I'm of the opinion they will be focusing their efforts and attention on the vaccine rollout more than restrictions. Michigan's govt. seems to be taking the same mentality, people are too fed up with more restrictions, just get vaccines in arms as quick as possible.

The problem with Michigan is that its insanely high rate of infections is apparently due to the UK variants, for which the vaccine is of unknown utility. Michigan will need to (re-)impose strict mask, indoor dining, etc restrictions to get it under control and not hope for some vaccine magic bullet panacea.

CDC says MI shutdown more appropriate than additional vaccines

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16 hours ago, GABA said:

One month out from COLORS and NOOD, and very limited registrations.  I believe a lot of boats are taking a wait and see approach. 

Exactly, because frankly not a lot has changed as far as transmission/infection spread mechanisms - unless you still want to race with masks on. Right now, I'd bet most crews would not be 100% vaccinated. I just got my 2nd shot yesterday, so I'm two weeks out (May 1st) from being (mostly? 90%?) immune. But I'm an old fart. How many 20, 30, 40 somethings have been vaccinated, or will be by June 1st? A lot of young folk still act like they don't need to, that it's not a threat to them (while the recent UK variants are proving them wrong). I for one will not sail on a boat with 20/30 year olds - well, frankly anyone -  who is either not vaccinated or refuses to wear a mask while sailing (if not vaccinated).  I'm more than happy to show my vaccine card before stepping aboard a boat. Should that be a requirement for all crew? 

We are not "back to normal".

 

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6 hours ago, JoeO said:

I just got my 2nd shot yesterday, so I'm two weeks out (May 1st) from being (mostly? 90%?) immune. But I'm an old fart....

 ... I for one will not sail on a boat with 20/30 year olds - well, frankly anyone -  who is either not vaccinated or refuses to wear a mask while sailing (if not vaccinated).

Careful Joe, you're starting to sound like a near-Trump Vax Denier :lol:

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1 hour ago, GABA said:

Careful Joe, you're starting to sound like a near-Trump Vax Denier :lol:

Quite the contrary... I think I'm as pro-vaccine as you can get... and that includes the childhood ones (MMr, DTap, varicella).

Or you're being ironic and I'm nor getting it (quite possible  - been a loooong day...).

 

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9 hours ago, sidmon said:

12 boats signed up so far for the Chicago Solo Mac, and 10 for the Port Huron Solo Mac...

https://yachtscoring.com/event_scratch_sheet.cfm?eID=14408

Usually get 20 something entries per side. Hopefully the Canadians can enter the Port Huron race this year.

Race starts June 19.

 

No border restrictions for the solo races last year, I wonder what made them so special?  I guess it's easier to quarantine on a boat by yourself rather than with a full crew.  :rolleyes: 

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Give people time.  There will be an overall decrease in participation for the Race to Mackinac 2021.  Whether you missed it or always race it in the coming years new AIS requirements really start puttin the burden on boat ownership and safety gear.  Gets a bit much but it all adds up...for safety!  :)

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Considering the Mac race is one of the few distance races in the country which regularly sees deaths on the race, I think anyone complaining about safety requirements is not acknowledging the reality of the race.

People dunk on the Bermuda Race for having onerous safety requirements but there haven't been fatalities in that race in its entire history.

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Agree with the wait and see approach. My race boat is just now getting organized for the year and we haven’t registered for the chi Mac yet even though we are doing it.
 

 

as for vaccines, they’ve opened it up to pretty much anyone that wants one now. It can just be a struggle to find the appointment to get it. I would expect my whole crew is fully vaccinated by June.

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5 minutes ago, jackolantern said:

Considering the Mac race is one of the few distance races in the country which regularly sees deaths on the race, I think anyone complaining about safety requirements is not acknowledging the reality of the race.

People dunk on the Bermuda Race for having onerous safety requirements but there haven't been fatalities in that race in its entire history.

I don’t think most are complaining about extra safety. They’re simply stating that participation might drop for a little while due to the cost of new equipment. Seems logical to me. I updated my personal safety gear over the winter to the tune of about 800 bucks. (Spinlock Vito, personal AIS beacon, and new tether) That stuff just isn’t cheap. A lot of boat owners provide that gear. It all adds up. 

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12 minutes ago, Lightfoot said:

Agree with the wait and see approach. My race boat is just now getting organized for the year and we haven’t registered for the chi Mac yet even though we are doing it.
 

 

as for vaccines, they’ve opened it up to pretty much anyone that wants one now. It can just be a struggle to find the appointment to get it. I would expect my whole crew is fully vaccinated by June.

Speaking of which??  how many are you talking about??  We only have 3 and 1 is a teacher that was getting checked 2-3x per week, and the other a single dude working from home, so we had no probs being maskless.  Will you do temp checks before letting people on or some other test??  temp = mask or somesuch??  Seriously curious... 

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5 hours ago, jackolantern said:

Considering the Mac race is one of the few distance races in the country which regularly sees deaths on the race, I think anyone complaining about safety requirements is not acknowledging the reality of the race.

Agree that safety is critical, but which Mac Race do you refer to?  CYC had Wingnuts lose the skipper and crew and in 2018 there was a drowning near the start of the race.  May God rest their souls.

But BYC prides itself on never having had a fatality.  Am I misinformed?

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15 hours ago, jackolantern said:

Considering the Mac race is one of the few distance races in the country which regularly sees deaths on the race, I think anyone complaining about safety requirements is not acknowledging the reality of the race.

People dunk on the Bermuda Race for having onerous safety requirements but there haven't been fatalities in that race in its entire history.

Regularly? It wasn't until the 103rd running in 2003 that any lives were ever lost. 

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30 minutes ago, inneedofadvice said:

I believe if I remember correctly, a trimaran flipped in ‘85 or there about and a sailor was lost. 

I think you are referring to the double-handed Mac with a catamaran named Great White and it was after '85, but I may be wrong.  Ron White wrote it up for Sailing World.  

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15 hours ago, jackolantern said:

Considering the Mac race is one of the few distance races in the country which regularly sees deaths on the race, I think anyone complaining about safety requirements is not acknowledging the reality of the race.

People dunk on the Bermuda Race for having onerous safety requirements but there haven't been fatalities in that race in its entire history.

Two accidents resulting in fatalities over the past 100 years in one of the two Mackinac Races.  Did you take the J&J vaccine and wind up with a clot in your brain?

Nobody complains about safety regs and I've never heard of a regularly participating program say "Well that safety gear is too expensive to do the race."  For fucks sake a room for 3 nights on the island costs more than any one piece of safety gear.

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14 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

I think you are referring to the double-handed Mac with a catamaran named Great White and it was after '85, but I may be wrong.  Ron White wrote it up for Sailing World.  

I'm pretty sure multis were not in the Macs until about '88 or later.  

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58 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

I think you are referring to the double-handed Mac with a catamaran named Great White and it was after '85, but I may be wrong.  Ron White wrote it up for Sailing World.  

Yeah, that sounds right. 

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8 minutes ago, inneedofadvice said:

Yeah, that sounds right. 

Matt Scharl and  Z probably saved some lives by getting on the radio and warning other sailors of the severity of the storm.  

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7 hours ago, glexpress said:

Two accidents resulting in fatalities over the past 100 years in one of the two Mackinac Races.  Did you take the J&J vaccine and wind up with a clot in your brain?

Nobody complains about safety regs and I've never heard of a regularly participating program say "Well that safety gear is too expensive to do the race."  For fucks sake a room for 3 nights on the island costs more than any one piece of safety gear.

Wingnuts and Imedi, both wound up being safety equipment failures in some form or another and both happened in the last decade.

Which other race has had a safety record like that in the last Decade? Fastnet Race? RORC 600? Middle Sea? Hobart? Bermuda? 

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1 minute ago, jackolantern said:

Wingnuts and Imedi, both wound up being safety equipment failures in some form or another and both happened in the last decade.

Which other race has had a safety record like that in the last Decade? Fastnet Race? RORC 600? Middle Sea? Hobart? Bermuda? 

Those accidents don't constitute "regularly sees deaths on the race"  That's a pretty reckless statement.   Also, how does a race have a safety record?  You can have all the rules and regulations, but at the end of the day it's the boat, skipper and crew that make it happen.

Who's complaining about safety requirements?  I'm not hearing anyone.  Also it's the Chicago race that has had the fatalities and one can argue that Chicago has stricter safety requirements.  But how can that be with so much safety?  <_< The truth is they were accidents, which given the same set of unfortunate circumstances could have happened in the Bayview race. 

I will concede that stability requirements in the case of Wingnuts is a significant factor, seeing as it allowed the boat on the water in the first place.  But it isn't the solitary factor in that case.

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1 hour ago, jackolantern said:

Wingnuts and Imedi, both wound up being safety equipment failures in some form or another and both happened in the last decade.

Which other race has had a safety record like that in the last Decade? Fastnet Race? RORC 600? Middle Sea? Hobart? Bermuda? 

San Francisco to Farallones races in the last 30 years have had numerous fatalities. At least 3 separate incidents. One with multiple fatalities.

 

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Data free discussions are always so much fun.  The simplest web search "yacht racing fatalities" on wikipedia yielded 14 dead in 5 different races in at 14 year period 1999-2013 after I edited out the non US races.  The average is one a year.  This list doesn't included the tragedy with one lost on the 2018 mac.  I guess the page hasn't been updated.

Race Name Host Club Date Name Boat
Doublehanded Farallones Race   03/27/99  Harvey Shlasky (USA), 51, of Berkeley, California White Lightning, J/29
Doublehanded Lightship Race Island Yacht Club of Alameda 03/16/08  Matthew Gale (USA), 68, Mill Valley, California
 Anthony Harrow (USA), 72, Larkspur, California
Daisy, Cheoy Lee Offshore 31
Chicago-Mackinac Race Chicago Yacht Club July 2011  Mark Morley (USA), 51
 Suzanne Bickel (USA), 41
Wingnuts, Kiwi 35
Farallones Race San Francisco Yacht Club 04/14/12  Alexis Busch (USA) of Larkspur
 Jordan Fromm (USA) of Kentfield
 Alan Cahill (USA) of Tiburon
 Elmer Morrissey (IRL)
 Marc Kasanin (USA)
Low Speed Chase, Sydney 38
Calif. to Ensenada, Mexico yacht race.   04/28/12  Kevin Eric Rudolph (USA), 53, of Manhattan Beach, Calif.,
 William Reed Johnson Jr. (USA), 57, of Torrance, Calif.,
 Joseph Lester Stewart (USA), 64, Bradenton, Fla.
Aegean, Hunter 376
Islands Race Newport Harbor and San Diego Yacht Club 03/09/13  Craig Thomas Williams (USA), 36, California Uncontrollable Urge, Columbia 32 Carbon
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So it’s safe to say that in relation to the OP that safety regs aren’t a factor in entries in 2021, for either race.  I say this because there aren’t significant changes to safety regs to either Mackinac race.  Plus historically safety regs haven't had a significant impact on registrations.  

 

It’s pretty clear that Covid is the biggest factor.  In this regard Chicago has all kinds of additional factors that Port Huron does not.  Big city, big event, big city marinas and a high profile.  Those factored into why Chicago got canceled in 2020.  Also, getting boats and crews (for out of town teams) in and out of Chicago presents more logistical challenges even in a normal year, much less during a pandemic.

 

Whereas the Bayview Mac starting out of Port Huron gets less attention and has a lower profile.  The parties at the start and finish were canceled for the Bayview Mac in 2020, these parties account for the largest gatherings of people surrounding the event.  Plus boats and teams are able to get mobilized to the start in Port Huron more independently.  At the finish fewer boats were allowed on the island, others went to Mackinaw City, St. Ignace or sailed home.

 

Entry deadline for CYC is 6/1 and BYC is 6/12.  There is a lot of time between now and then, if the last 15 months has taught us anything it’s that a lot can happen between now and then.  I would say by mid May there will be a more concise picture on total entries for each event.

 

In summary Bayview and participating teams have fewer moving parts than CYC/participants do to pull off a Mackinac race during a pandemic.  Even then it was a big challenge and significant accomplishment for Bayview to hold a race in 2020.  My gut instinct is that both races will happen in 2021 with participation in the CYC race diminished as compared to past events.  BYC may see a boost in 2021 in relation to the CYC race, but in 2022 things will be more back to normal.  Hopefully the BYC Mac maintains the boost in interest/participation moving forward.

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16 hours ago, Tenacity said:

Data free discussions are always so much fun.  The simplest web search "yacht racing fatalities" on wikipedia yielded 14 dead in 5 different races in at 14 year period 1999-2013 after I edited out the non US races.  The average is one a year.  This list doesn't included the tragedy with one lost on the 2018 mac.  I guess the page hasn't been updated.

Race Name Host Club Date Name Boat
Doublehanded Farallones Race   03/27/99  Harvey Shlasky (USA), 51, of Berkeley, California White Lightning, J/29
Doublehanded Lightship Race Island Yacht Club of Alameda 03/16/08  Matthew Gale (USA), 68, Mill Valley, California
 Anthony Harrow (USA), 72, Larkspur, California
Daisy, Cheoy Lee Offshore 31
Chicago-Mackinac Race Chicago Yacht Club July 2011  Mark Morley (USA), 51
 Suzanne Bickel (USA), 41
Wingnuts, Kiwi 35
Farallones Race San Francisco Yacht Club 04/14/12  Alexis Busch (USA) of Larkspur
 Jordan Fromm (USA) of Kentfield
 Alan Cahill (USA) of Tiburon
 Elmer Morrissey (IRL)
 Marc Kasanin (USA)
Low Speed Chase, Sydney 38
Calif. to Ensenada, Mexico yacht race.   04/28/12  Kevin Eric Rudolph (USA), 53, of Manhattan Beach, Calif.,
 William Reed Johnson Jr. (USA), 57, of Torrance, Calif.,
 Joseph Lester Stewart (USA), 64, Bradenton, Fla.
Aegean, Hunter 376
Islands Race Newport Harbor and San Diego Yacht Club 03/09/13  Craig Thomas Williams (USA), 36, California Uncontrollable Urge, Columbia 32 Carbon

Don't think this is a complete list.  We had a death in the Mills Race on Lake Erie off a J29.  The person was a very good sailor too.

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11 minutes ago, JEA said:

Don't think this is a complete list.  We had a death in the Mills Race on Lake Erie off a J29.  The person was a very good sailor too.

Are you sure it was a Mills.  I'm pretty sure it wasn't.

I have absolutely no data to back it up, but deliveries were for me, the scariest part of the Mac experience.  Often shorthanded and the autopilots allowed a lack of vigilance.

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16 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

Are you sure it was a Mills.  I'm pretty sure it wasn't.

I have absolutely no data to back it up, but deliveries were for me, the scariest part of the Mac experience.  Often shorthanded and the autopilots allowed a lack of vigilance.

The referenced fatality was in the 2015 Mills

https://medium.com/@Sail_GreatLakes/mills-race-fatality-was-a-florida-man-76574070701e

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13 minutes ago, glexpress said:

Thanks, I believe, and am usually wrong, that he was talking about Bruce Goldsmith on the J29 Send in the Clowns.  I did the Detroit NOODs that weekend and was crushed by the news,  If the water depth is 6' or greater, I assume I can drown.

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That was 2007 I think. Bruce had his neck broken by the boom. Was the Comm Perry Race, not the mills.

 

Florida man was “speedy” Glenn Reeck. That was the one where he died in 4 feet of water because his crew couldn’t figure out how to get him back aboard after he fell through busted ass old lifelines. 

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4 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

Thanks, I believe, and am usually wrong, that he was talking about Bruce Goldsmith on the J29 Send in the Clowns.  I did the Detroit NOODs that weekend and was crushed by the news,  If the water depth is 6' or greater, I assume I can drown.

Thinking back to that 2015 accident in the Mills, that accident didn't seem to get as much press as those in the Chicago Mac.  I have no idea why, also there wasn't a US sailing inquiry as with Imedi and WingNuts in the Chicago race.  Even though as straight forward as his drowning was in shallow water and he fell over due to "busted ass old lifelines"

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Us sailing actually did launch an inquiry but it was already in court so they backed off so as not to make a mess. The report from The ohio agency was damning. 
 

As for coverage disparity..it’s not brain surgery. Well known triathlete sailor disappears in the middle of the day during America’s third most populous city’s biggest summer event vs an old stoner dying during a 100 boat Toledo-based regatta.  

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5 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Us sailing actually did launch an inquiry but it was already in court so they backed off so as not to make a mess. The report from The ohio agency was damning. 
 

As for coverage disparity..it’s not brain surgery. Well known triathlete sailor disappears in the middle of the day during America’s third most populous city’s biggest summer event vs an old stoner dying during a 100 boat Toledo-based regatta.  

 

Well, I guess it's generally accepted that "Florida Man" has a higher mortality rate.

 

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17 hours ago, Tenacity said:

Data free discussions are always so much fun.  The simplest web search "yacht racing fatalities" on wikipedia yielded 14 dead in 5 different races in at 14 year period 1999-2013 after I edited out the non US races.  The average is one a year.  This list doesn't included the tragedy with one lost on the 2018 mac.  I guess the page hasn't been updated.

Race Name Host Club Date Name Boat
Doublehanded Farallones Race   03/27/99  Harvey Shlasky (USA), 51, of Berkeley, California White Lightning, J/29
Doublehanded Lightship Race Island Yacht Club of Alameda 03/16/08  Matthew Gale (USA), 68, Mill Valley, California
 Anthony Harrow (USA), 72, Larkspur, California
Daisy, Cheoy Lee Offshore 31
Chicago-Mackinac Race Chicago Yacht Club July 2011  Mark Morley (USA), 51
 Suzanne Bickel (USA), 41
Wingnuts, Kiwi 35
Farallones Race San Francisco Yacht Club 04/14/12  Alexis Busch (USA) of Larkspur
 Jordan Fromm (USA) of Kentfield
 Alan Cahill (USA) of Tiburon
 Elmer Morrissey (IRL)
 Marc Kasanin (USA)
Low Speed Chase, Sydney 38
Calif. to Ensenada, Mexico yacht race.   04/28/12  Kevin Eric Rudolph (USA), 53, of Manhattan Beach, Calif.,
 William Reed Johnson Jr. (USA), 57, of Torrance, Calif.,
 Joseph Lester Stewart (USA), 64, Bradenton, Fla.
Aegean, Hunter 376
Islands Race Newport Harbor and San Diego Yacht Club 03/09/13  Craig Thomas Williams (USA), 36, California Uncontrollable Urge, Columbia 32 Carbon

That is a smaller list than I would have expected. I was a participant in four of those events that experienced fatalities (including the not listed Imedi Chicago Mackinac incident not including ) so maybe I am a bad luck charm and offshore sailing isn't as dangerous as my experiences would indicate. Outside of races I participate in, sailing seems pretty safe.  Breaking waves and high winds near the Farallones and outside the Bay along with relatively lax safety out of SF Bay (no inspections) makes those races out of the Gate particularly dangerous.

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On 4/14/2021 at 5:11 PM, jackolantern said:

Considering the Mac race is one of the few distance races in the country which regularly sees deaths on the race, I think anyone complaining about safety requirements is not acknowledging the reality of the race.

People dunk on the Bermuda Race for having onerous safety requirements but there haven't been fatalities in that race in its entire history.

There have, however, been some on boats delivering back to the states :( the delivery crews don't have to subscribe  to the same levels of training

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On 4/14/2021 at 5:11 PM, jackolantern said:

People dunk on the Bermuda Race for having onerous safety requirements but there haven't been fatalities in that race in its entire history.

Actually they have had one fatality, in 1932. Boat caught fire & sank. 

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AIS requirement will end my participation. None of the tragedies in previous CYC Mac races would have been prevented or had any different outcome if AIS were in use. 

On 4/14/2021 at 4:57 PM, proOC said:

Give people time.  There will be an overall decrease in participation for the Race to Mackinac 2021.  Whether you missed it or always race it in the coming years new AIS requirements really start puttin the burden on boat ownership and safety gear.  Gets a bit much but it all adds up...for safety!  :)

 

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34 minutes ago, oneguyfromdetroit said:

AIS requirement will end my participation. None of the tragedies in previous CYC Mac races would have been prevented or had any different outcome if AIS were in use. 

 

That’s an odd stance. As someone who wears a personal AIS beacon when offshore, I appreciate all the other owners (excluding you). 

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22 hours ago, oneguyfromdetroit said:

AIS requirement will end my participation. None of the tragedies in previous CYC Mac races would have been prevented or had any different outcome if AIS were in use. 

 

Yeah? They wouldn’t have been able to find the MOB from Imedi? 

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6 hours ago, ropetrick said:

They had him in sight. Sadly no one could recover him before he ran out of energy to keep himself afloat.

AIS would not have made a difference.

How about all the other boats in the area?

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10 hours ago, jackolantern said:

Yeah? They wouldn’t have been able to find the MOB from Imedi? 

 

2 hours ago, ropetrick said:

Denali stood by while Imedi tried to recover her own crew.

His inflatable failed; for whatever reason, and after several tries by Imedi he was gone.

 

 

This is a perfect example of why AIS would not have changed the outcome. The Imedi crew was never out of sight. 

Furthermore, neither Mac race is really an "Offshore" race; boats are usually in sight of land. If we were racing in an ocean, miles from other boats and/or land, then AIS would be a more effective safety tool.

I'm all in favor of effective safety equipment and training.  I'm not in favor of expensive, ineffective systems, especially when it take a crew away from the MOB recovery effort in order to stare at what is sure to be a heavily populated AIS screen, and try and decipher the AIS chatter. 

CYC would do well to either drop this requirement, make it optional, or, consider more reasonably priced alternatives like the ACR OLAS Tag Crew Tracker.

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On 4/28/2021 at 11:46 AM, oneguyfromdetroit said:

AIS requirement will end my participation. None of the tragedies in previous CYC Mac races would have been prevented or had any different outcome if AIS were in use. 

 

True, but neither would flares, EPIRBs, an alternative steering mechanism, or an onboard medical reference manual and we don't complain about carrying those or quit participating because they are required...

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44 minutes ago, Carrera said:

True, but neither would flares, EPIRBs, an alternative steering mechanism, or an onboard medical reference manual and we don't complain about carrying those or quit participating because they are required...

Yeah, but AIS for the boat and 100% of the crew is a lot more expensive than all of those other items. In terms of bang for buck, flares, EPIRB and alternative steering all provide more safety than AIS and cost a lot less.

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2 hours ago, Carrera said:

True, but neither would flares, EPIRBs, an alternative steering mechanism, or an onboard medical reference manual and we don't complain about carrying those or quit participating because they are required...

How would we know the population of boats that have considered doing the race but have chosen not to because of cost and complication and intimidation of safety equipment? 

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I for one will be wearing my AIS/DSC beacon (PLB)in my life jacket.  As others have pointed out, when someone goes overboard during daylight hours and you are able to maintain a visual on the MOB, the value of a PLB is minimal. 

However, at night in high speed conditions, MOB could easily be separated from the boat by up to mile or more within a few short minutes.  In those conditions the PLB could be a real game changer and be the difference maker to help retrieve the MOB with only mild hypothermia in a short amount of time.  Without a PLB in night time conditions, consequences to the MOB could be dire.   

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17 hours ago, Fast Laser said:

I for one will be wearing my AIS/DSC beacon (PLB)in my life jacket.  As others have pointed out, when someone goes overboard during daylight hours and you are able to maintain a visual on the MOB, the value of a PLB is minimal. 

However, at night in high speed conditions, MOB could easily be separated from the boat by up to mile or more within a few short minutes.  In those conditions the PLB could be a real game changer and be the difference maker to help retrieve the MOB with only mild hypothermia in a short amount of time.  Without a PLB in night time conditions, consequences to the MOB could be dire.   

One simply needs to remember when Mark Wheeler went overboard for an example - yes, his (very experienced) crew found him, but it took an hour, relying on hearing a whistle during 30-40kt winds. He had an AIS beacon, but the boat didn't have an AIS tracker. How much more quickly would he have been picked up if they did? And while Mark survived an hour in 60 deg water with an improperly secured lifejacket, how about the rest of us who were not trained as fighter pilots? I'd certainly prefer that the boat I sailed on had an AIS tracker.

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5 minutes ago, eastern motors said:

Some boats will be spending 10% of the value of the boat for AIS.  Think J/35.  Could definitely hurt participation.

Does the captain or crew buy these?  

You can get an AIS receiver for $150 these days.

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3 hours ago, eastern motors said:

I see.  They were more like $300 last time I looked into it.

I’d rather not do a Mac on a $3,000 boat, thank you.   

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On 4/30/2021 at 12:06 PM, oneguyfromdetroit said:

 

This is a perfect example of why AIS would not have changed the outcome. The Imedi crew was never out of sight. 

Furthermore, neither Mac race is really an "Offshore" race; boats are usually in sight of land. If we were racing in an ocean, miles from other boats and/or land, then AIS would be a more effective safety tool.

I'm all in favor of effective safety equipment and training.  I'm not in favor of expensive, ineffective systems, especially when it take a crew away from the MOB recovery effort in order to stare at what is sure to be a heavily populated AIS screen, and try and decipher the AIS chatter. 

CYC would do well to either drop this requirement, make it optional, or, consider more reasonably priced alternatives like the ACR OLAS Tag Crew Tracker.

If you see shore for most of the Chicago to Mac race your navigator sucks and you should find a new one.

Heck there was a race in the mid 2010s with such thick fog for most of saturday and Sunday that my boat didn’t see land from before the start to after turning the corner at can three and I think we saw less than 10 boats the whole race, and we were a mid fleet boat and finished well. 
 

I wasn’t a fan of the personal AIS requirement but after Mark’s incident I went out and bought one for myself and forced our crew to learn how to use the system on the boat. Mark got ‘win the lottery lucky’ to survive that incident. And I’d prefer no to have to rely on that kind of luck to survive. 

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13 hours ago, Lightfoot said:

 

If you see shore for most of the Chicago to Mac race your navigator sucks and you should find a new one.

I've raced CYC 25 times, 14 podium finishes, including 9 1sts, and 2 1st OA's. I've sailed with some very good navigators, and some very good sailors. I consider myself fortunate to have done so. Still not a fan of personal AIS requirement. 

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On 5/1/2021 at 3:16 PM, Ishmael said:

You can get an AIS receiver for $150 these days.

The boats will need an AIS transponder (not just a receiver.) Each crew will need a personal AIS beacon. 

The transponder+antenna splitter is roughly a $600 to $1000 expense. The personal beacons that meet the requirement are around $300 each.

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That is still a fraction of what a new sail or most other annual expenses run. I'm sure people complained when GPS or, before that, electronic compasses came out as being too expensive and limiting participation. Owning a boat is expensive. Owning a safe and fast boat is even more expensive.

Now I can kind of understand the sentiment on PLBs as those feel more like a personal choice than requiring boats to have AIS receivers. My bigger concern with PLBs is how many people are actually going to install/program and maintain them properly. Once programed and armed, the batteries only last ~5 years and they have to be sent back for replacement by the OEM.

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14 hours ago, oneguyfromdetroit said:

I've raced CYC 25 times, 14 podium finishes, including 9 1sts, and 2 1st OA's. I've sailed with some very good navigators, and some very good sailors. I consider myself fortunate to have done so. Still not a fan of personal AIS requirement. 

Cool, congrats. See you on the course. 

 

Back to the thread. So CYC entires is only up to 234. So it does look like entries are down this year for CYC. 

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I’m hoping Michigan can cool down COVID cases.   You guys are pretty risky right now. 
Please get vaccinated so we can race.  

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Good news - Chicago's Mayor Lightfoot is setting a goal to "fully reopen" the city by July 4. 
That should ease some of the pre-race planning pressure on the CYC race committee - and make it more fun for us all to be there pre-race!
 
PS - I got Vax #2 on Thursday - the same day my personal AIS beacon arrived. 
Damn, that sounded like "virtue signalling", didn't it?
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I know 6 or so boats locally that quit doing Mac race due to overall cost.  Entry fee, safety equip cost, rating system cost, island expenses, etc.

The serious racers are likely to go anyway.  Some will complain about the costs.

But, for the occasional racers or people that these races are on their bucket list the cost of these events is moving farther out of reach.

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16 hours ago, Grinder said:

I’m hoping Michigan can cool down COVID cases.   You guys are pretty risky right now. 
Please get vaccinated so we can race.  

There is a surplus of vaccines in Michigan, people are even getting offered rides and money to get the shot.  If people want the vaccine it's there for the taking, so those who want it are going to get it.  It is what it is.

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Just think about how hard it is to find a 12" of a human head above water at night & in heavy seas, before they drown.  What do you think has a better chance of plotting an accurate fix from 2 miles away, which is where you'll be by the time you get the kite down and under control. 

A. The VHF antenna 60' off the water, that only needs to receive a single second of transmission to plot the exact location the chart plotter? Or...

B. Your human crew, 9' off the water (when not in the troughs) who has to see the MOB, distinguish from other background lights (hopefully the MOB's light worked...), determine a bearing & range in the dark without good visual references, and hold that spot until you're on target?

Oh yeah... for anti-beacon'ers. Is that $300 more or less costly than the widow's lawsuit? 

 

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If there were a deadhorse topic hall of fame for SA, safety requirements impacting race participation would be in it. 

 

I don't know why it keeps coming up in this thread as safety requirements have minimal impact on participation.  There are more significant factors in Mackinac participation, certainly now with Covid in the mix.

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On 5/5/2021 at 7:32 AM, kcolborne said:

I know 6 or so boats locally that quit doing Mac race due to overall cost.  Entry fee, safety equip cost, rating system cost, island expenses, etc.

The serious racers are likely to go anyway.  Some will complain about the costs.

But, for the occasional racers or people that these races are on their bucket list the cost of these events is moving farther out of reach.

I'm not saying the Mac races are equivalent in any way but they are still way cheaper than a N2B, Transpac, Fastnet or Hobart race!

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On 5/4/2021 at 4:32 PM, Grinder said:

I’m hoping Michigan can cool down COVID cases.   You guys are pretty risky right now. 
Please get vaccinated so we can race.  

Even though our numbers are admittedly not very good (new cases/deaths), our vaccination rates are better than IL. 

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/public-health/states-ranked-by-percentage-of-population-vaccinated-march-15.html

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4 hours ago, proOC said:

Get the shot and move on.

Yep. I wasn’t even concerned about me. Already had Covid. Still went and got the shots. Our boat pulls crew from all over the state. I figured those other folks on the boat would appreciate it. Not to mention, if enough people get the shot, the argument for the stupid masks goes away. 

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Here are the number of Chicago Mac Race entries for 11 of the past 12 years.  I don't have the data for the canceled 2020 race.  2013 is the number of starters, not entries.  There are still 3 week to go before late fees kick in so this year's 238 may still increase.  The projected increase based on previous years is about a dozen more.  The short summary is that Chicago Mac race entries have been dropping steadily at over 9 entries per year for the past decade; a total of 1/3 less entries.  This thread will continue to speculate on the causes of this fact.  These numbers, being history, are considerably less uncertain.

 

Entries.jpg

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On 5/10/2021 at 10:49 AM, Tenacity said:

Here are the number of Chicago Mac Race entries for 11 of the past 12 years.  I don't have the data for the canceled 2020 race.  2013 is the number of starters, not entries.  There are still 3 week to go before late fees kick in so this year's 238 may still increase.  The projected increase based on previous years is about a dozen more.  The short summary is that Chicago Mac race entries have been dropping steadily at over 9 entries per year for the past decade; a total of 1/3 less entries.  This thread will continue to speculate on the causes of this fact.  These numbers, being history, are considerably less uncertain.

 

Entries.jpg

It would be interesting to see the # entries for the 70's thru 90's, early 2000's. I seem to recall that the maximum was reached for some "anniversary" between 2003-2010? (100th consecutive running? or something), when they also opened it up to a cruising fleet (which was never the case previously). I remember total entries being more like 265-290 for much of the 80's/90. Maybe less than 200 in the 870's. Point is - it was not always a 300+ boat fleet, that is the result in part of recent changes opening it up to a wider "audience".

Can you present the above data with the cruisin fleet excluded? That would be a better "historical" comparison.

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21 minutes ago, JoeO said:

It would be interesting to see the # entries for the 70's thru 90's, early 2000's. I seem to recall that the maximum was reached for some "anniversary" between 2003-2010? (100th consecutive running? or something), when they also opened it up to a cruising fleet (which was never the case previously). I remember total entries being more like 265-290 for much of the 80's/90. Maybe less than 200 in the 870's. Point is - it was not always a 300+ boat fleet, that is the result in part of recent changes opening it up to a wider "audience".

Can you present the above data with the cruisin fleet excluded? That would be a better "historical" comparison.

OK, here's some data from 2002-2010

Year # Entries Notes
2002 311  
2003 302  
2004 316  
2005 284  
2006 299  
2007 296 Ist time Cruising Division
2008 437 110th anniversary, 100th running
2009 337 Add Dbl-hand Div
2010 365  

 

And some random other entry #'s

1985         290

1986        304

1987        303

1988        291

1989        277

1991        278

   
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
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