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Santana 23D Daggerboard Position


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I'm a new owner of a Santana 23D and looking for someone with experience on the boat to help me understand how much the daggerboard can safely be lowered. I replaced the line on the 6:1 purchase that raises the daggerboard. In doing so, it didn't seem obvious what would stop the daggerboard deploying clear out the bottom of the boat. Any help would be appreciated on the topic.

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1 hour ago, solo-harmony said:

I'm a new owner of a Santana 23D and looking for someone with experience on the boat to help me understand how much the daggerboard can safely be lowered. I replaced the line on the 6:1 purchase that raises the daggerboard. In doing so, it didn't seem obvious what would stop the daggerboard deploying clear out the bottom of the boat. Any help would be appreciated on the topic.

You're correct, nothing keeps it from dropping out of the bottom if you have enough line and keep lowering it... or if the line comes unreeved.

Mine (#130) had an access plate in the starboard side of the trunk. Docked in calm water, I lowered mine until the top of the board was just exactly at the waterline, then put a stopper knot to hold it at exactly this position "full down." Also, this meant that the lower part of the tackle was in salt water, so I rinsed it out after almost every sail.

If you can put the boat on a hoist, you might try lowering until the notch for the lifting tackle is just an inch or two above the bottom of the hull. That would be a couple of inches lower.

Another matter of importance is how high you can raise it, and still steer. Unless the board is down a foot or so, it acts like a beach ball.

These boats are old, most have been sailed hard, and most have broken their boards at some point. It's worth lifting out and inspecting. I ground mine down and re-fiberglassed it, faired it, and also faired the inside of the trunk to minimize play/movement and ensure alignment.

post-30927-1252946284_thumb.jpg

Fun boat, very rewarding. I sold mine because it needed more rebuilding and more money than I wanted to sink into it.

FB- Doug

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You likely know already, but . . 

the better sailors in dagger board boats 

trim the board depending on point of sail, wind, current, etc. 

takes some practice. 

(To be clear, I do not claim to be any sort of "better") 

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23 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

the better sailors in dagger board boats 

trim the board depending on point of sail, wind, current, etc. 

Pretty dangerous practice.

Although some people here do cheat, regulations required the board to be locked down to prevent it coming out the top in the event of w knockdown or capsize.

Poor design not to have a lip on top of the board to prevent it heading out of the hull in the fully lowered position.

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4 hours ago, Randro said:
5 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

the better sailors in dagger board boats 

trim the board depending on point of sail, wind, current, etc. 

Pretty dangerous practice.

Although some people here do cheat, regulations required the board to be locked down to prevent it coming out the top in the event of w knockdown or capsize.

Poor design not to have a lip on top of the board to prevent it heading out of the hull in the fully lowered position.

As usual, you jump into a discussion without the slightest clue what you're talking about.

Poor design? How many boats have YOU designed?

What exactly is "dangerous" about adjusting the board height on a Santana 23d? Do you even know what the ballast configuration is, or the way the trunk and the lifting tackle is engineered?

FB- Doug

 

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5 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

You likely know already, but . . 

the better sailors in dagger board boats 

trim the board depending on point of sail, wind, current, etc. 

takes some practice. 

(To be clear, I do not claim to be any sort of "better") 

I just used it full-down going upwind or daysailing, and within about a foot or so of all the way up when going downwind. We occasionally sailed distance races and on long reaches would pull it up some. Once in a distance race, the SIs prescribed 'no spinnakers above the X bridge' and so we went thru the brodge in company and while sorting everything out, a j92 (who should have been far ahead of by then) decided to luff us into shallow water. We both got stuck, but unfortunately he did not have a "get un-stuck line."

Definitely made a difference on the runs. I pulled it up until the steering went mushy, then pulled the rudder up a bit too (cassette style lifting blade). Once we forgot to put it down at the leeward mark and did very poorly for first quarter of the beat... the San Juan 21s were catching up to us! But we realized what was wrong and pulled away.

It was a fun boat, that long vertical board gave it superior pointing to anything I ever lined up with ... J24s, San Juan 30, Santa Cruz 27, Wavelength 24, the Etchells could outpoint us once it started getting choppy. They were also outfooting us most of the time, no surprise.

FB- Doug

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

What exactly is "dangerous" about adjusting the board height on a Santana 23d?

Where I live you are required to lock the board down on trailer-bailers for good reasons.  Does the 23 board have lead in it?

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2 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

As usual, you jump into a discussion without the slightest clue what you're talking about.

When Steam Flyer calls you out, you know you have it coming. 

The S2 7.9's also trim dagger boards with regularity, unless local rules prohibit it. 

Gent in our club had an old Morgan 37 (I think it was) with a lifting center board that would go down to 8 feet, which is a lot around here. 

It pointed like a demon. 

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For those of ya who know about as little as I do . . 

My understanding is that centerboards pivot on a fixed pin.  J-95 ish, and lots of dinghies

Dagger boards go straight up and down, like the S2 7.9 and the Santana 23d 

both are trimmed by good sailors 

SailboatData.com - SANTANA 23 D Sailboat

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Sailboatdata site gives the daggerboard weight as only 170 lbs. out of more than 1000 lbs. total ballast, so it doesn't seem unreasonable to not have any restraining bolts or molded top to stop it falling. I thought it was solid iron or lead at first and was a little concerned.

 

I could see letting it drop cleanly out of the boat as a preferable failure mode to it falling and slamming down hard on the trunk. On the Catalina 22, the raised 500 lb. swing keel has enough potential energy where if the cable or winch were to fail and the keel freely swung forward, it'd probably crack the boat in half.

 

Then again, in a hard grounding the swing keel will swing back and absorb some of the energy. Don't ask me how I know this. The vertical daggerboard instead would do a fantastic job of transmitting that shock load to the trunk and hull structure. I knew a sailor in Dunedin, NZ who did a number on his trailer sailer with a vertical daggerboard this way in an unfortunate encounter with the stones of the Dunedin harbor wall. Boat design is all about tradeoffs!

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I used to sail with the board all the down (until the tackle slot was just about the bottom of the hull), reaching we would trim the board from almost full down to 2/3 up and on runs from 2/3 up to only 9-12 inches below the hull. I really light air runs I would also pull the rudder part way up to cut wetted surface.  We sailed the boat hard and pretty different from most of the other 23s, very loose lower shrouds to allow almost a foot of mast bend plus a droopy boom with 12" flattening reef to bring the boom to level. At the time we were fast (compared to other S 23s) although sailmaking has moved on in the past 35 years.

The 23D is a fun boat with lots of potential; lots of fond memories.

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I used to sail with the board all the down (until the tackle slot was just about the bottom of the hull), reaching we would trim the board from almost full down to 2/3 up and on runs from 2/3 up to only 9-12 inches below the hull. I really light air runs I would also pull the rudder part way up to cut wetted surface.  We sailed the boat hard and pretty different from most of the other 23s, very loose lower shrouds to allow almost a foot of mast bend plus a droopy boom with 12" flattening reef to bring the boom to level. At the time we were fast (compared to other S 23s) although sailmaking has moved on in the past 35 years.

The 23D is a fun boat with lots of potential; lots of fond memories.

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5 hours ago, sailronin said:

I used to sail with the board all the down (until the tackle slot was just about the bottom of the hull), reaching we would trim the board from almost full down to 2/3 up and on runs from 2/3 up to only 9-12 inches below the hull. I really light air runs I would also pull the rudder part way up to cut wetted surface.  We sailed the boat hard and pretty different from most of the other 23s, very loose lower shrouds to allow almost a foot of mast bend plus a droopy boom with 12" flattening reef to bring the boom to level. At the time we were fast (compared to other S 23s) although sailmaking has moved on in the past 35 years.

The 23D is a fun boat with lots of potential; lots of fond memories.

 The one design class fell apart the year before I bought mine, last Nationals...  they really are fun boats.

FB- Doug

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There are two types of boats that have daggerboards. Ones that are designed for shallow water. They are designed so that they can effectively be sailed with the board all of the way up. There are other boats like the sports boats, that have a daggerboard solely for the purpose of transport. It would be pretty sketchy sailing a Melges 24 without the keel down and fixed. 

We live on a river in AU. Very shallow water. All of the boats have centerboards or daggerboard. I've got a 26' trailer sailor that's similar to a J-27. It's got a fancy  hollow stainless daggerboard with 500 kg of lead in the tip. The whole boat weighs 1200kg. I often have to raise the board halfway going upwind. She's got heaps of stability so she doesn't get knocked over. These trailor sailors have been converted to electric towing winches.

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18 hours ago, Randro said:

Pretty dangerous practice.

Although some people here do cheat, regulations required the board to be locked down to prevent it coming out the top in the event of w knockdown or capsize.

Poor design not to have a lip on top of the board to prevent it heading out of the hull in the fully lowered position.

I hear the phrase “regulations” a fair amount, it is usually used incorrectly.  S27.9’s lift their boards so do E26’s.  Perhaps you can engineer a “lip” for the poor souls that have these poorly designed boats.

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5 hours ago, CaptainAhab said:

There are two types of boats that have daggerboards. Ones that are designed for shallow water. They are designed so that they can effectively be sailed with the board all of the way up. There are other boats like the sports boats, that have a daggerboard solely for the purpose of transport. It would be pretty sketchy sailing a Melges 24 without the keel down and fixed. 

We live on a river in AU. Very shallow water. All of the boats have centerboards or daggerboard. I've got a 26' trailer sailor that's similar to a J-27. It's got a fancy  hollow stainless daggerboard with 500 kg of lead in the tip. The whole boat weighs 1200kg. I often have to raise the board halfway going upwind. She's got heaps of stability so she doesn't get knocked over. These trailor sailors have been converted to electric towing winches.

Daggerboards (a la S2 7.9) and lifting keels (a la Melges 24) are two totally different beasts - absolutely no similarity in design, purpose, or use.

Would love to hear more about your 26' trailer sailor.  What's the design?  Any pics?  I suspect that 500kg of lead fills a bit more than "the tip" of 26'er's daggerboard.

Cheers!

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37 minutes ago, CriticalPath said:

Daggerboards (a la S2 7.9) and lifting keels (a la Melges 24) are two totally different beasts

The S2 7.9 dagger board weighs 600 pounds and take some muscle to trim. 

It is tapered outward at the top, and when lowered it fits snugly into a matching female. No rattling around. 

The solution to the problem of grounding damage is downright elegant. When the board hits something and is pushed back, the trailing edge hits the DB trunk and gets some "shark bite" dings. In effect, the rear of the board is sacrificed to preserve the more expensive to repair CB trunk. 

If you hit something REALLY hard, you can damage the CB trunk, that that does not happen often. 

Like the venerable Santana 23d, fun boats !! 

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My Farr 740 Sport is very similar to the Santana 23D in concept, performance and dimensions. My daggerboard case is rectangular all the way down to about 4" above the bottom of the boat where it changes to the shape of the foil. The daggerboard itself is rectangular for about 18" at the top then changes to the foil shape. I can lower it down until it rests on the transition at the bottom of the case much like the S2. There is a pin that can be inserted through the case just above the top of the fully lowered board to prevent it from retracting in case of a knockdown. While on the trailer I have lowered the board on to a scale which shows 400#. Seems like 4000# when winching it up! BTW I have weighed the boat ready to sail except for the crew, 2750#.

Personally I don't raise to unless I have to and have struck underwater obstacles (trees washed into the lake) hard enough to completely stop the boat and throw me forward to the cabin wall. Unlike me the boat seems to take it in stride.

The Farr has a large rudder (also retractable) which contributes to the lateral resistance. With the short cord board and the big rudder the boat turns like it's on ball bearings, similar to the Enterprise dinghy of my very distant youth.

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/farr-740-sport

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2 hours ago, mikegt4 said:

There is a pin that can be inserted through the case just above the top of the fully lowered board to prevent it from retracting in case of a knockdown.

That is a very good idea. Several S2 7.9's came to grief when in a knockdown the boat went more than 90 degrees over, and the dagger board slid out the top of the trunk. (But that is rare, only two incidents of that among 600 or so 7.9's produced) Just don't get knocked down !! 

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4 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:
6 hours ago, mikegt4 said:

There is a pin that can be inserted through the case just above the top of the fully lowered board to prevent it from retracting in case of a knockdown.

That is a very good idea. Several S2 7.9's came to grief when in a knockdown the boat went more than 90 degrees over, and the dagger board slid out the top of the trunk. (But that is rare, only two incidents of that among 600 or so 7.9's produced) Just don't get knocked down !! 

Well fuck me hey?  What did I say?  Who would have thought?

Lifting the fin down hill increases the chances of bad things happening. 

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And make it go quicker!

I used to race one of these offshore,  back in the days of JOG or Junior Offshore Group, (my only excuse is I was young & didn't know any better).

They perform surprisingly well,  & while planing isn't really on the surf a treat given a bit of breeze and swell.  A fun little boat for there time.

For offshore racing in Oz,  lifting keels while racing was banned in the late 70s or early 80s,  the 77 Hobart scared a few officials,  (and sailors).  I can't say that this rule was universally abided by in the JOG fleet though.

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36 minutes ago, TUBBY said:

And make it go quicker!

I used to race one of these offshore,  back in the days of JOG or Junior Offshore Group, (my only excuse is I was young & didn't know any better).

They perform surprisingly well,  & while planing isn't really on the surf a treat given a bit of breeze and swell.  A fun little boat for there time.

For offshore racing in Oz,  lifting keels while racing was banned in the late 70s or early 80s,  the 77 Hobart scared a few officials,  (and sailors).  I can't say that this rule was universally abided by in the JOG fleet though.

And that's kind of ironic, back in the days of commercial sail when fleets of small-ish sailing vessels toted goods around to all the coastal towns, it was taken for granted that a centerboard vessel was better on two counts... less dependent on deep channels and could get into more ports, or in/out in a wider time/tide slot... and more seaworthy because they were less likely to trip over a deep keel in big waves.

Now, getting back to the actual subject, the Santana 23d............

FB- Doug

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10 hours ago, TUBBY said:

And make it go quicker!

I used to race one of these offshore,  back in the days of JOG or Junior Offshore Group, (my only excuse is I was young & didn't know any better).

They perform surprisingly well,  & while planing isn't really on the surf a treat given a bit of breeze and swell.  A fun little boat for there time.

For offshore racing in Oz,  lifting keels while racing was banned in the late 70s or early 80s,  the 77 Hobart scared a few officials,  (and sailors).  I can't say that this rule was universally abided by in the JOG fleet though.

Do you know how many where built? I know of only one other in the US.

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On 4/16/2021 at 10:11 AM, Steam Flyer said:

You're correct, nothing keeps it from dropping out of the bottom if you have enough line and keep lowering it... or if the line comes unreeved.

Mine (#130) had an access plate in the starboard side of the trunk. Docked in calm water, I lowered mine until the top of the board was just exactly at the waterline, then put a stopper knot to hold it at exactly this position "full down." Also, this meant that the lower part of the tackle was in salt water, so I rinsed it out after almost every sail.

If you can put the boat on a hoist, you might try lowering until the notch for the lifting tackle is just an inch or two above the bottom of the hull. That would be a couple of inches lower.

Another matter of importance is how high you can raise it, and still steer. Unless the board is down a foot or so, it acts like a beach ball.

These boats are old, most have been sailed hard, and most have broken their boards at some point. It's worth lifting out and inspecting. I ground mine down and re-fiberglassed it, faired it, and also faired the inside of the trunk to minimize play/movement and ensure alignment.

post-30927-1252946284_thumb.jpg

Fun boat, very rewarding. I sold mine because it needed more rebuilding and more money than I wanted to sink into it.

FB- Doug

Thank you for sharing. This is very helpful.

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On 4/17/2021 at 1:53 AM, sailronin said:

...really light air runs I would also pull the rudder part way up to cut wetted surface.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

How did you lock in the rudder at a partially lowered position?

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On 4/19/2021 at 11:33 AM, mikegt4 said:

Do you know how many where built? I know of only one other in the US.

From (very faded) memory they were built in NZ,  by I think, Sea Nymph.

There were a few in Oz,  at least 2 were regulars in JOG racing out of Sydney.  They were both based at Middle Class YC in the early 80s.

I have vague memories of there being a couple more in Melbourne & I think there was quite a reasonable fleet on the Kiwi side of the ditch.

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On 4/19/2021 at 3:23 PM, solo-harmony said:

Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

How did you lock in the rudder at a partially lowered position?

Mine was heavy enough and a tight enough fit, that it would stay put anywhere from full down to 2/3 up. That good for steering in shallow water.

You can glue some new felt around the inside of the cassette if yours doesn't want to stay put.

FB- Doug

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On 4/22/2021 at 9:40 AM, TUBBY said:

From (very faded) memory they were built in NZ,  by I think, Sea Nymph.

There were a few in Oz,  at least 2 were regulars in JOG racing out of Sydney.  They were both based at Middle Class YC in the early 80s.

I have vague memories of there being a couple more in Melbourne & I think there was quite a reasonable fleet on the Kiwi side of the ditch.

Yes, Sea Nymph in NZ. My boat is hull #008, it was used in the SN brochure (page3).  From what I have found it seems that there where not many built, maybe less than 40. They were also built in Italy as an upgraded version in the 1990's.

http://www.sailingtheweb.com/sailboats/Farr+740+Sport/Plastivela

The brochure can be seen on Bruce Farr's web page.

http://www.farrdesign.com/101.html

 

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