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Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics of Offshore Yachts


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53 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

that peer-to-peer discussion among active cruisers is now a viable option. 

 

Peer to peer has its advantages (part of the small niche approach I mentioned above) and is fun and social in any case , but it is not a great way to determine 'best practices' as #1 it is by its nature more anecdotal, #2 it is hard to know who in fact knows what they are talking about - our sport seems to particularly have a lot of people who think they are expert with expert experience when in fact they dont (eg like once around in the tropics does not make you an expert), and #3 excellent analytical skills are reasonably rare and are in fact required to successfully untangle best practices in a multi-faceted activity such as ours

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That in no way diminishes the validity of their choices. They are buying the boat for themselves, not for you or me. I happen to prefer a deep fin, spade rudder, tall carbon rig, paradoxically on a wo

You know who to get the best advice from? Delivery skippers. It isn't their boat, they aren't in love with her and blind to her flaws. They have to get the boat from A to B despite the weather or

This has turned into Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics of Offshore Posters.

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37 minutes ago, Borracho said:

 

As for circumnavigating without ever encountering a gale. How boring is that? 

Fine with me.

It's a Chinese curse to say "may you live in interesting times". 

 

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The problem is, everyone's experience is limited. Nearly all recreational sailors have sailed particular kinds of boats in particular kinds of weather and had particular kinds of successes and failures with it. The sea in a storm is quite chaotic, and yacht design practice is nearly as chaotic. The sort of repeatable, carefully controlled multivariate experiment that advances knowledge quickly cannot and will not be done, except around the edges (like the tank rollover tests at Southhampton). You would need to drop 10 carefully varied designs in into the middle of a storm with measured and characterized waves and instrument the result, then do that 10 times in 10 different weather conditions. 

Because of this, all the knowledge is anecdotal, with all the unreliability that implies. With boat design changing more rapidly than in the past, the problem gets worse as the anecdotes from 1962 and now even 2002 are dated. 

I tried to do a simple thing, measure the roll excursions on my powerboat. It proved impossible to do: where was the NST standard ferry boat wake, encountered at exactly the same angle and speed, in a standard background sea state?

The modern solution to the problem may be crowd sourced mega-information. This is beginning to happen on bottom surveys, and could happen in time with storm management. Using data on pitch, yaw, and roll along with wind and sea height, recorded every second, and uploaded when you get to port. The human factor would be hard to capture - lbs or expectorated vomit/hour? Drownings/mile/year?

There are very detailed bathymetric charts being created by recorded and uploaded files from structured sonar being carried by many thousands of users. We need to do the same thing to solve some of the longstanding arguments in sailing. Satellite tracking has done this to some extent for claims of speed. We need it applied to the other questions. My question on roll excursions would be easily answered if 10 sisterships recorded data even for a few months. It used to be you wanted to do a few careful measurements because you could only analyze so much data and the quality needed to be high. This has changed - you can now deal with nearly unlimited measurements, and extract very high quality conclusions from poor data provided you have enough of it. 

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27 minutes ago, Cruisin Loser said:

Fine with me.

It's a Chinese curse to say "may you live in interesting times". 

 

I remember pushing the boat as hard as possible in horrendous weather and loving the speed and excitement :D

Fixing all the shit we broke - well that can start to add up :rolleyes: That is no sustainable all the way around the world.

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8 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I remember pushing the boat as hard as possible in horrendous weather and loving the speed and excitement :D

Fixing all the shit we broke - well that can start to add up :rolleyes: That is no sustainable all the way around the world.

Yeah, that's fun with a race crew aboard. With wife and kids? 

My whole goal in sailing with the wife is gale avoidance, because I like sailing with her. If every trip turns into a sufferfest because of my stupidity, pretty soon I'll be sailing alone. Not long after that, I won't have a boat anymore. 

We've withdrawn from this year's Marion-Bermuda due to the covid regs. I'm still pretty shocked that I actually pulled the plug, because these races are a pretty big deal to me and the crew.

OTOH, our first grandchild is due May 6th. I don't remember children being this expensive even before they're born. You could buy a really nice 35'er with what my wife has spent on this grandbaby, so far. 

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19 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Then they were wrong.

Hove to is a very specific thing, not an opinion.

Heaving to ~ Boating NZ

 

Are you a member of the Académie Française? French is a codified language.

English is defined by usage not codification. That is a reality I sometimes rail against – how can you have more than two alternatives, moot is not mute, impact is not a verb etc etc – but when I do I am wrong because when a meaningful share of English speakers use these words differently from how I think they should be...their usage becomes the definition and my opinion becomes the ranting of fuddy-duddy...

(FWIW...my usage corresponds to your diagram)

 

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31 minutes ago, DDW said:

The problem is, everyone's experience is limited. ...

I'd add that everyones definition of unseaworthy is different. The scientist would need to nail that down first. Looks like sailing in a gale without damage is no longer on the list of necessary attributes for boats, equipment or crew. I suppose with routing, waiting and rescue technology being what they are that is not unreasonable. But what would those popular old designers say about that? I've plenty experience with poorly chosen boats. From big cats that cannot be turned around without danger of flipping...for a quick rescue perhaps. To over-burdened cruisers that couldn't tack (here's looking at you Mr. Peterson) in a blow: "We always use the engine for tacking." 

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1 hour ago, estarzinger said:
2 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

that peer-to-peer discussion among active cruisers is now a viable option. 

Peer to peer has its advantages (part of the small niche approach I mentioned above) and is fun and social in any case , but it is not a great way to determine 'best practices' as #1 it is by its nature more anecdotal, #2 it is hard to know who in fact knows what they are talking about - our sport seems to particularly have a lot of people who think they are expert with expert experience when in fact they dont (eg like once around in the tropics does not make you an expert), and #3 excellent analytical skills are reasonably rare and are in fact required to successfully untangle best practices in a multi-faceted activity such as ours

Evans, my sentence after the one you quoited begins "The quality of the info on forums is variable".  I was using restrained understatement, and maybe I should have been more direct and noted that web forums often contain a lot of crap.

But frankly, anyone trying to work though all this needs decent analytical skills.  The last 60 years of GRP boatbuilding has seen huge change hull design, rigs, other gear, and so many usage cases, that a lot of filtering is needed.  And as DDW rightly notes, the datasets are poor.

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22 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

I was using restrained understatement, 

Sorry :) 

Quote

And as DDW rightly notes, the datasets are poor.

Yes, and even that is probably again a restrained understatement. I have less confidence than DDW that in my lifetime we will get very much useful from 'mega datasets' in sailing. I am a mathematician by education and a business operations guy by experience and I have seen problems where large data and increased computing power cracked difficult problem*  . . but by and large with most issues there is still a lot of art and judgment necessary. 

* way way back when I was doing some consulting with frito lay when we realized that we had reached a 'tipping point' where we finally had enough computing power and accurate enough maps/road data that we could practically solve the 'traveling salesman' problem for their delivery trucks.  Was a nice moment - but they have been few and far between when you find something like that.

For storm tactics and weather routing and many other issues we HAVE learned enough that there would be value in someone analytical laying it out to replace the practices from the 20-year old bibles.  It would not be 'scientific' in the way DDW would like, but it would represent 'best current judgement' based on a ton of new/better information than we had back then.

------------------------------------------------------

So what was Jud's question here again?  I have completely lost track.

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I’ve got to break out my dremel tool now to open up the slot in the front of my boom for the new mainsail clew slug - which I didn’t open up *quite* wide enough the other day.  An undesirable characteristic :-)  And I just managed to reassemble my Profurl furler and bet the sail back on - after disassembling it a few days ago to get access to the turnbuckle to tension it, per suggestion from sailmaker who wasn’t satisfied with rig tension for sail measuring.  It’s already 10:30 a.m. on Sunday and I’ve gotten almost nothing done yet - so, so much left to do today...

I will be back to the table here with vigour in a short while :-)

73083A9F-CA78-4FC0-AD59-6B533DD859B6.jpeg

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1 hour ago, Cruisin Loser said:

Yeah, that's fun with a race crew aboard. With wife and kids? 

My whole goal in sailing with the wife is gale avoidance, because I like sailing with her. If every trip turns into a sufferfest because of my stupidity, pretty soon I'll

 

My wife loves to hear all the stories like the one about the time the battery cracked in a  hurricane and the acid ate our canned food. She has NO interest in actually having that happen to her!

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Jud's question was whether he should read Rousmaniere's book, and as so many things in sailing, even this has proven to be controversial.

We are still some distance from having enough instrumentation on sailboats to extract meaningful information about a lot of things, and will never answer all the questions with data. But getting closer. On the powerboat, I have pitch/roll/yaw sensors, and have just added a data recorder that will record that and almost every other bit of data on the N2K bus continuously (rudder angle, wind speed and direction, heading, SOG, COG, BS, etc). Such a recorder was prohibitively expensive only 5 years ago, now <$250. I'll be adding that to the sailboat shortly. My monthly espresso budget is more. 

Of course, having the answers and applying the answers are two different things. Long ago Nautor/Swan funded a university experiment instrumenting a boat and published the results. Among the results were that rudder loads and keel loads were higher than everyone had assumed. Since then countless rudders and keels have failed as neither ABYC or ABS recommendations changed. In that context, collecting data and generating conclusions is a fool's errand, since the work will be ignored. 

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You know who to get the best advice from? Delivery skippers.

It isn't their boat, they aren't in love with her and blind to her flaws. They have to get the boat from A to B despite the weather or the owner would be making the trip, so they bang through uncomfortable weather instead of waiting a few weeks for the perfect reach in 15 knots. They sail a variety of boats, not just one.

* pet rant, total n00b sails around the world in a Catalina 30 with orange sails or an old wood schooner or whatever and then becomes an expert in everything and decides his way is the only way to do it. He has never tried anything else :rolleyes:

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2 hours ago, Al Paca said:

Nice nautical library. But I don’t see the Holy Grail of sailing books. Royce’s Sailing illustrated.  I’ll assume it’s on the boat for quick reference while underway. 

No, I read quite a bit of it and decided that I didn't need it.

 

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2 hours ago, Diarmuid said:

Strangely, Ish's "heaved to" is the correct verb form (past participle); "hove to" is the adjectival condition.  Having heaved to, the boat is now hove to.

English is weird.:lol:

Thank you. My English degree wasn't a total waste of time.

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6 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Thank you. My English degree wasn't a total waste of time.

Ish, if that was the net benefit of the degree then I am going to argue with the term total. :)

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11 minutes ago, DDW said:

Ish, if that was the net benefit of the degree then I am going to argue with the term total. :)

It's probably a gross misstatement. 

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19 minutes ago, Elegua said:
30 minutes ago, DDW said:

Ish, if that was the net benefit of the degree then I am going to argue with the term total. :)

It's probably a gross misstatement. 

I'm sure it has helped immeasurably in some way. Probably.

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45 minutes ago, DDW said:

Of course, having the answers and applying the answers are two different things. Long ago Nautor/Swan funded a university experiment instrumenting a boat and published the results. Among the results were that rudder loads and keel loads were higher than everyone had assumed. Since then countless rudders and keels have failed as neither ABYC or ABS recommendations changed. In that context, collecting data and generating conclusions is a fool's errand, since the work will be ignored. 

With a few honourable exceptions, standards keel attachment on modern sailboats are grim.  But it seems that most buyers place little priority on a well-engineered keel.

As to collecting lots of data, I fear that it will be of limited use.  The sensors will be unlikely to record the sail area and how it is sheeted, or the load weight on the boat and its distribution, which can be significant variables on a cruising boat.  They can record wind fairly well, but can at best get some proxy measurements for sea state. 

So it seem to me that it would be hard to compare data from different boats.

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15 hours ago, MikeJohns said:

Beamy light displacement Wedge type hulls are best as limited coastal cruisers.  The Pogo 12.5 is typical of this.

I'm sure you recognize that there is no "best hull shape" for offshore cruising. It might be more uncomfortable beating upwind in 4m seas than a skinny CCA hull, but I bet you'd realize that if you bought a Pogo.

 

15 hours ago, MikeJohns said:

MSI limits can be next to impossible to achieve in some combinations of sea state and heading without a resonabale displacement to waterplane area.

MSI limits (if you're talking about NATO limits or something similar) are impossible to achieve in ANY small boat in a F8 if you're still sailing upwind. 

5 hours ago, Blue Crab said:

I conclude from this thread so far that the most desirable characteristic is LOA. And lots of it. Lacking that, the need is for sea room

Yep, (LWL is a better predictor of "actual" size) and it's also a good predictor of capsize. Lots of the Global Race with very "seaworthy" old school type keels, narrow beams 32-36' capsized. Bigger 45' Beneteau's probably would not have.

The size of a breaking wave required to capsize a typical sailboat is = beam of the vessel. That's the breaking part of the wave, not the total wave height. So if you have  a 10' beam, a 25' wave with the top 10' breaking is enough to flip you if it catches you beam on.

4 hours ago, Borracho said:

As for circumnavigating without ever encountering a gale. How boring is that? Optimal cruiser routing, weather windows, waiting. Some friends did that. Seems more akin to tourism than sailing. Nothing wrong with that, but consider that airlines and hotels provide a similar service. "We went around the world and never felt a thing." A literal quote.

Or because you're sailing your home with all your possession, your family and your pet, and ocean sailing can be risky 1000's of miles from the nearest help, why seek out trouble? Tearing sails, breaking rigging fittings, or a dismasting would be very un-fun and expensive. 

I spent lots of time studying weather trying to avoid bad weather. It's more comfortable to avoid gales. Travel in lots of foreign countries is very interesting and challenging enough without getting hammered. If you're going for a daysail do you say "shit it's 15 knots forget it; I'll wait for a proper gale"

It's similar advice to  "Wow you climbed Mt. Everest and never once had to suffer 100 mile winds when the jet stream moved and and an avalanche didn't kill your companions? How boring"

4 hours ago, estarzinger said:

Fundamentals rarely change - the sea is the same.

Yes, but I'd argue the weather is NOT the same. My wife did a story where she talked to a bunch of meteorologists including Bob McDavitt. Every single one of them said weather patterns are not the same as they were used to. This is guys with decades and decades of experience looking at the same bit of ocean. Generally the take away was the shoulder seasons were getting longer and more unpredictable.

Hurricane/cyclone seasons were a bit longer they thought but not enough data yet.

The risks of adverse weather as you try to reach the tropics or leave temperate regions is probably higher than 20 years ago (think the NZ-Tonga passage or Norfolk to USVI in late fall). I'm happy we went when we did. In 10 or 15 years you'll still be able to sail oceans but the weather might be less predictable and less kind

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1 hour ago, Ishmael said:

No, I read quite a bit of it and decided that I didn't need it.

 

You have Sail Power by Wallace Ross. That book changed how I trim sails and ultimately how I love to sail. I once took a North Sails Gofast weekend course. It was a crashing bore. Based nearly word for word on Sail Power, I already knew that by heart. 
 

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12 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Yes, but I'd argue the weather is NOT the same. 

almost certainly true if your time horizon is 'shortish' like since 1900.  I agree the shoulders of the cyclone seasons seem to have moved.

I dont have enough knowledge about the past say 5000 years to know if our 100 year system variability is unusual or not. And that starts to move into a PA discussion in any case.

 

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20 minutes ago, Kris Cringle said:

You have Sail Power by Wallace Ross. That book changed how I trim sails and ultimately how I love to sail. I once took a North Sails Gofast weekend course. It was a crashing bore. Based nearly word for word on Sail Power, I already knew that by heart. 
 

Tom Whidden's The Art and Science of Sails is worth reading and adds some modern elements that Ross didn't have at the time.

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7 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Tom Whidden's The Art and Science of Sails is worth reading and adds some modern elements that Ross didn't have at the time.

I have that. It's has some good information but does read a bit like a North commercial in places.  The North U. Cruising & Seamanship textbook has the cliffnotes version. 

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1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

As to collecting lots of data, I fear that it will be of limited use.  The sensors will be unlikely to record the sail area and how it is sheeted, or the load weight on the boat and its distribution, which can be significant variables on a cruising boat.  They can record wind fairly well, but can at best get some proxy measurements for sea state. 

So it seem to me that it would be hard to compare data from different boats.

Yes, sail sheeting, actual (rather than advertised) displacement, and many other things would make things move quicker. But be careful not to underestimate the power of massive data. Among other things it is the origin of the largest personal fortunes on the planet. We can (and do!) reconstruct your entire life just from tracking your cell phone position. Your individual computer is easily identified out of many hundreds of millions even without cookies by its fingerprint. While a few individual Beneatu 40'ers might be outliers in how they are loaded or sailed, tracking a few hundred continuously, and several hundred more very similar designs may yield some interesting conclusions when compared to a similar database on Pogos and catamarans and Bermuda 40s. A statistical of probabilistic model tells you little about an individual instance, but can tell quite a bit about a population. 

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4 hours ago, KC375 said:

Are you a member of the Académie Française? French is a codified language.

English is defined by usage not codification. That is a reality I sometimes rail against – how can you have more than two alternatives, moot is not mute, impact is not a verb etc etc – but when I do I am wrong because when a meaningful share of English speakers use these words differently from how I think they should be...their usage becomes the definition and my opinion becomes the ranting of fuddy-duddy...

(FWIW...my usage corresponds to your diagram)

Yeah, it's the illiterates that keep English alive.

One of God's cosmic jokes.

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2 hours ago, Zonker said:

......

Or because you're sailing your home with all your possession, your family and your pet, and ocean sailing can be risky 1000's of miles from the nearest help, why seek out trouble? Tearing sails, breaking rigging fittings, or a dismasting would be very un-fun and expensive. 

I spent lots of time studying weather trying to avoid bad weather. It's more comfortable to avoid gales. Travel in lots of foreign countries is very interesting and challenging enough without getting hammered. If you're going for a daysail do you say "shit it's 15 knots forget it; I'll wait for a proper gale"

Is it prudent seamanship to head offshore, even coastal cruising in North America, if one doubts their own or their yacht's ability to safely endure a gale (>28 knots?) without damage? Tropical day-sailors should expect such conditions at any time. Sure, reasonable to avoid a gale if possible. However I would think the boats sailed by avid readers of the books being discussed here would be ready for a gale at any moment. And the crews not shy. Numerous talkative cruisers have told me over drinks, as if boasting, that they don't even bother with sails until 15 knots of wind is showing. Anyone else think a 15 to 27 knot wind range is a rather Undesireable Characteristic for a yacht?

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25 minutes ago, DDW said:

Yes, sail sheeting, actual (rather than advertised) displacement, and many other things would make things move quicker. But be careful not to underestimate the power of massive data. Among other things it is the origin of the largest personal fortunes on the planet. We can (and do!) reconstruct your entire life just from tracking your cell phone position. Your individual computer is easily identified out of many hundreds of millions even without cookies by its fingerprint. While a few individual Beneatu 40'ers might be outliers in how they are loaded or sailed, tracking a few hundred continuously, and several hundred more very similar designs may yield some interesting conclusions when compared to a similar database on Pogos and catamarans and Bermuda 40s. A statistical of probabilistic model tells you little about an individual instance, but can tell quite a bit about a population. 

That's how they've got much better at hurricane track forecasting, for example. In complex multivariate systems, sometimes you start with maximal data sets and then model backwards thru raw computational power, rather than beginning with a few presumptive equations and projecting those forward. 

Your other points relate to Desirable Traits and to the post-mortems of the '79 Fastnet and '98 Sydney Hobart disasters. Much ink was spilled at the time about why a certain size or type of boat suffered worse than others. Re-evaluations suggest the controlling variable in both instances was not hull plan, or rig type, or storm tactics, or crew experience -- it was proximity to the strongest winds/worst waves. Thirty-ish foot IOR boats came off poorly in the Fastnet because those boats were grouped where the Irish Sea was roughest. 

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23 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Your mistake is in failing to distinguish between two types of beamy boat:

  1. a beamy IOR boat which carried some of its ballast in the ceiling, and the rest high up in the keel
  2. a modern beamy boat, which carries its ballast in a deep bulb

That gives the modern boat a higher AVS than the IOR boat.

I think you are confusing IOR with a preceding RORC handicap, which had a credit for heavy deck construction. Many early Carter designs had steel decks to get credit. IOR put the lead in the bilges.

I have never seen ANY old racer with lead attached to the ceiling.

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7 minutes ago, Diarmuid said:

proximity to the strongest winds/worst waves

a pretty common finding.

there are usually very narrow bands or areas of quite significantly worst wind and waves.

it is one of the potential downsides of storm tactics which 'park' the boat - you would really rather NOT be parked in one of those peak zones - would really rather sail away from and out of them before you think about parking.

Which has all sorts of implications for boat design and tactics and weather thinking/planning.

 

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16 minutes ago, Borracho said:

Is it prudent seamanship to head offshore, even coastal cruising in North America, if one doubts their own or their yacht's ability to safely endure a gale (>28 knots?) without damage? Tropical day-sailors should expect such conditions at any time. Sure, reasonable to avoid a gale if possible. However I would think the boats sailed by avid readers of the books being discussed here would be ready for a gale at any moment. And the crews not shy. Numerous talkative cruisers have told me over drinks, as if boasting, that they don't even bother with sails until 15 knots of wind is showing. Anyone else think a 15 to 27 knot wind range is a rather Undesireable Characteristic for a yacht?

I think you are confusing the boat's actual performance against what the crew can achieve. Most cruiser's don't carry light air sails, they consign that storage area to things that matter more to them. And most do not want to be out in heavy conditions, that also does not correlate to their concept of sailing. And again, they don't have the sails to perform happily in those conditions.

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18 minutes ago, Borracho said:

Is it prudent seamanship to head offshore, even coastal cruising in North America, if one doubts their own or their yacht's ability to safely endure a gale (>28 knots?) without damage? Tropical day-sailors should expect such conditions at any time. Sure, reasonable to avoid a gale if possible. However I would think the boats sailed by avid readers of the books being discussed here would be ready for a gale at any moment. And the crews not shy. Numerous talkative cruisers have told me over drinks, as if boasting, that they don't even bother with sails until 15 knots of wind is showing. Anyone else think a 15 to 27 knot wind range is a rather Undesireable Characteristic for a yacht?

Most experienced, competent, and rational  offshore cruisers choose and equip their boats for far more serious conditions than they hope to ever encounter. They try to cross oceans at the best times of year, and pay attention to the weather before departure and during their passages to minimize encounters with truly bad weather. To do anything else demonstrates a certain recklessness and disregard for their own well-being.

Sometimes, despite your preparations and planning, the shit hits the fan. Some of the worst weather I have encountered has been from features that are sub-synoptic in scale, and won't necessarily be identified by the best forecasting. The good thing is that because of their scale, they rarely last more than a few hours.

Leaving with serious large-scale weather in your path that might be avoided by waiting a couple of days or altering your route slightly is a personal choice, but one that I have chosen not to make.

And no, pleasant passages are not boring. They are a relief. My wife especially thinks that, and I agree.  Otherwise, our reasonably uneventful double-handed circumnavigation might have turned into a miserable single-handed one.

Your experience may vary.

 

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For those who have an interest in IOR yachts, I recommend following Julian Everitt on Facebook. He is an Englishman who designed a lot of IOR boats. His comments make it clear that the IOR changed over the years, so all the boats don't have all the flaws and idiosyncrasies. 

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1 hour ago, Borracho said:

Is it prudent seamanship to head offshore, even coastal cruising in North America, if one doubts their own or their yacht's ability to safely endure a gale (>28 knots?) without damage?

Nope. But you were saying that people should not avoid gales because a sailing voyage without them would be boring. 

1 hour ago, Borracho said:

Numerous talkative cruisers have told me over drinks, as if boasting, that they don't even bother with sails until 15 knots of wind is showing. Anyone else think a 15 to 27 knot wind range is a rather Undesireable Characteristic for a yacht?

Some people have heavy old fashioned boats that are overloaded won't sail well in light winds. Some are lazy and won't put up a spinnaker. I've encountered them too, including some well known sailors.

On our boat < 3knots of boat speed was my wife's limit. That's about 5 knots TWS for us. We LOVED passages of 8-12 knots wind. The boat sailed plenty fast enough and the seas were flat.

On our fat 30' mono hull it needed 8 knots before we got going.

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7 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Nope. But you were saying that people should not avoid gales because a sailing voyage without them would be boring. 

Yes, I wrote "boring." And then some sailor worried about breaking stuff. Pathetic in my book. When we leave California, when COVID releases us, I'm hoping a gale for a day or so. Get outta here! Make some latitudes. Leave the miserable fog and cold far behind, and quickly.

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3 hours ago, estarzinger said:

almost certainly true if your time horizon is 'shortish' like since 1900.  I agree the shoulders of the cyclone seasons seem to have moved.

I dont have enough knowledge about the past say 5000 years to know if our 100 year system variability is unusual or not. And that starts to move into a PA discussion in any case.

 

Forget PA, think practical. Now there is NO certainty that there is a safe predictable gap between winter storms and summer storms.

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I just wanted to say thanks to all the posters, this thread is utterly fascinating to read for a numpty like me.

Cheers all, more please.

 

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1 hour ago, Borracho said:

Is it prudent seamanship to head offshore, even coastal cruising in North America, if one doubts their own or their yacht's ability to safely endure a gale (>28 knots?) without damage? Tropical day-sailors should expect such conditions at any time. Sure, reasonable to avoid a gale if possible. However I would think the boats sailed by avid readers of the books being discussed here would be ready for a gale at any moment. And the crews not shy. Numerous talkative cruisers have told me over drinks, as if boasting, that they don't even bother with sails until 15 knots of wind is showing. Anyone else think a 15 to 27 knot wind range is a rather Undesireable Characteristic for a yacht?

Able to sail in a gale? If you define gale as anything over 28 knots of COURSE you need to be able to do it. That is just making miles for us sometimes. One great sail we had was leaving from Block Island for Cape May with about 35 knots on the beam. The seas were regular long period big rollers and it was easy fast sailing. One other time beating into 35 knots with confused 10-15 foot seas was just wet pounding misery, but we had a race to run. Most cruisers would have hated it. Cruisers tend to play the long game where beating the boat up when you don't have to just means repairs and dodging an angry wife.

I would not sail offshore if the boat would be in danger in 20 foot seas and 50 knot winds. I would also do a lot to avoid that condition.

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15 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Forget PA, think practical. Now there is NO certainty that there is a safe predictable gap between winter storms and summer storms.

well, there was never a totally safe gap . . . for instance there have always been some amount of December (and even January) Atlantic hurricanes (and sept/oct S pacific cyclones).  "Oct all over' was really always a myth.  It is just the frequency/risk seems to have increased.  But, as far as 'fundamentals' go, you always should have anticipated the possibility.

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5 hours ago, Borracho said:

You are going to make a mess using that plastic glass, @Jud - s/v Sputnik. Better just drink that most excellent internet opinion fluid from the bottle. As Borracho would.

Nah.  My (only) two liquor glasses on board are hard-won shot glasses from Rosie’s Bar and Grill in Pelican, Alaska.  Land of fog and cold that you so disparage. :-)

Well, that oughta do for the new  mainsheet boom blocks.  Locations, I mean.

C0E7DDFA-5F3A-439E-A1F6-C78D94AEEA73.jpeg

14C1081B-6791-4BAD-B649-A5493BE216CF.jpeg

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One dumb question from the peanut gallery. 

Does boat speed have a bearing in determining if a particular hull form is desirabie or undesirable?

I've been offshore in comfortable boats until the sea state builds to the point the boat is no longer comfortable and you're kinda trapped. When the wave sets are travelling faster than you, the boat goes from comfortable to downright awkward. You're options become limited to just toughing it out until mother nature gets bored and moves onto someone else. 

But if you are running quicker than the wave sets, the motion changes dramatically. The pitch/roll/yaw flattens out and the prior two handed half wheel turns as a wave catches you become an inch or two with a finger. Aside from the comfort level, one major advantage seems to be the fatigue level of the crew drops remarkably, which is another tick in the desirable column. And it seems to open up more options than just taking the flogging.  

So my question is......unless we were capable of doing the speeds necessary to stay in front of dirty sea states when this book was written, are the resultant higher boat speeds from the newer hull /rig designs a big enough of a change to alter some of the opinions and observations made in the books of this era? 

Thanks!

SB

 

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4 hours ago, Zonker said:

I'm sure you recognize that there is no "best hull shape" for offshore cruising. It might be more uncomfortable beating upwind in 4m seas than a skinny CCA hull, but I bet you'd realize that if you bought a Pogo.

 

MSI limits (if you're talking about NATO limits or something similar) are impossible to achieve in ANY small boat in a F8 if you're still sailing upwind. 

........................

Sure for every condition you find yourself in you wish for a different boat. But the Pogo is an extreme hull-form by any measure.

As for Motion; not combat station MSI, just general habitability, what do you think the RAO's look like in say SS5 confused with little or no wind ?

You posted a GZ curve before for the Pogo. I was involved in putting another type of popular production boat into survey. The measured AVS was close to 10 degrees lower than the  marketing data for a fully optioned boat ex factory. 

I don't think a lot of published GZ_RM curves are very reliable. In this case the manufacturer didn't have a clue and the contracted external designer wouldn't answer emails.
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57 minutes ago, Borracho said:

Yes, I wrote "boring." And then some sailor worried about breaking stuff. Pathetic in my book. When we leave California, when COVID releases us, I'm hoping a gale for a day or so. Get outta here! Make some latitudes. Leave the miserable fog and cold far behind, and quickly.

Great sailing when it's from the right direction. sometimes a cross sea can make conditions a bit miserable though. Our best averages well over 200 mile days are in gales in the right direction. Exhilerating but rotating the helm every half hour between the few crew that could helm downwind at night on a compass bearing.

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5 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

One dumb question from the peanut gallery. 

Does boat speed have a bearing in determining if a particular hull form is desirabie or undesirable?

I've been offshore in comfortable boats until the sea state builds to the point the boat is no longer comfortable and you're kinda trapped. When the wave sets are travelling faster than you, the boat goes from comfortable to downright awkward. You're options become limited to just toughing it out until mother nature gets bored and moves onto someone else. 

But if you are running quicker than the wave sets, the motion changes dramatically. The pitch/roll/yaw flattens out and the prior two handed half wheel turns as a wave catches you become an inch or two with a finger. Aside from the comfort level, one major advantage seems to be the fatigue level of the crew drops remarkably, which is another tick in the desirable column.  

So my question is......unless we were capable of doing the speeds necessary to stay in front of dirty sea states when this book was written, are higher boat speeds enough of a change to alter some of the opinions and observations made in the books of this era? 

Thanks!

SB

 

In deep water, the bigger the waves get, the further apart the crests are, but generally speaking, the waves are always moving faster than any boat I've ever sailed on offshore, even if you are running with them.

My experience is that the bigger the boat, the more comfortable she will be in a building seaway, and the more in control of your life you will feel sailing off the wind, even though you have to pay attention to your steering.

Planing boats may be entirely different, but I've never sailed one of those well offshore in really big seas. I have sailed  Santa Cruz 70s in long distance (say, 200+ miles) coastal races in heavy inshore conditions--say, 25-30kt of true wind or more-- and the difference in comfort between upwind and downwind was stunning for someone who had never sailed a boat of that type in those conditions before.

When the wind is blowing 25+ and you are spinnaker reaching at 20+ knots, everything seems remarkably easy on a 70-footer built for those conditions and angles. On a similarly-sized racing lead mine, things get tense in the same conditions when the boat accelerates much past 15-17 knots, and the steering can be both more difficult and more critical to maintaining speed, comfort, and directional stability.

But there is no free lunch. Turn upwind in those conditions, and the SC 70 may pound your teeth out, while the lead mine will give you delusions of power and grandeur while only going 9.5 kt in reasonable comfort, even if it goes up and down a lot.

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11 hours ago, Blue Crab said:

I conclude from this thread so far that the most desirable characteristic is LOA. And lots of it. Lacking that, the need is for sea room. 

I've read as much as anyone and the one thing that sticks with me wasn't from Hiscock or Blyth but our own E Starzinger who commented he and Beth had circumnavigated the globe without encountering over 35kts of wind. Regardless of boat or skipper competence, no pre-electronics sailor can make a statement like that. Ergo, the most desirable thing is a modern nav/weather setup.

It was actually Eric Hiscock who wrote (having done it) that it was possible to circumnavigate without encountering sustained winds over 30 knots, maybe three or four decades earlier?? Done with a sextant and I believe a short wave.

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28 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

 capable of doing the speeds necessary to stay in front of dirty sea states 

 

Many people under appreciate wave physics. Fully developed seas/waves from 30kt winds will average 17kts speed.  Not many cruising boats can sustain 17kt average . . . and that is not even in a gale when the required speed would be higher (like a sustained 23kt average boat speed) to 'stay in front of the waves'.

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8 minutes ago, estarzinger said:

Many people under appreciate wave physics. Fully developed seas/waves from 30kt winds will average 17kts speed.  Not many cruising boats can sustain 17kt average . . . and that is not even in a gale when the required speed would be higher (like a sustained 23kt average boat speed) to 'stay in front of the waves'.

The latest trend in family cruising boats for weather-beating speed...

tirmaran-sensation-ocean-dujoncquoy.jpg

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15 minutes ago, CapDave said:

It was actually Eric Hiscock who wrote (having done it) that it was possible to circumnavigate without encountering sustained winds over 30 knots, maybe three or four decades earlier?? Done with a sextant and I believe a short wave.

I stand corrected. I'd have lost a bet on that.

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6 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

You know who to get the best advice from? Delivery skippers.

It isn't their boat, they aren't in love with her and blind to her flaws. They have to get the boat from A to B despite the weather or the owner would be making the trip, so they bang through uncomfortable weather instead of waiting a few weeks for the perfect reach in 15 knots. They sail a variety of boats, not just one.

* pet rant, total n00b sails around the world in a Catalina 30 with orange sails or an old wood schooner or whatever and then becomes an expert in everything and decides his way is the only way to do it. He has never tried anything else :rolleyes:

After owning a few boats and realizing I couldn't really afford the cruising lifestyle - I did deliveries for a few years in the '80's before deciding it was enormously dangerous, and switched to full-time skippers jobs. I had a great skill set and a terrible personality for chauffeuring rich people around on their yachts, so I continued to experience a wide range of yachts!

And it's quite true - we were just about moving the boat. You get to the dock, you have a couple of hours to survey the boat and decide if you want to bet your life on her, and if you decide no you were probably out the travel money to get there. The default was to just go, at least I never said no - a few times I wish I had.

The resulting very wide range of experience has been extraordinarily valuable now later in life out cruising my own boat again. There are so many solutions to most problems!

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5 hours ago, Bryanjb said:

To the OP, maybe just read the book.  This thread is going nowhere.

Really?  It’s going everywhere (which was sort of a problem, when various folks were getting really grouchy several hours ago).

1700 views, 150 posts.  I get 50 cents per view/click, so I’m doing alright :-)

I think there are plenty of interesting observations, accusations, and attestations in this thread - it’s a fascinating topic.  Think of it like the peer review process in an academic journal - except the sniping is done right out in the open, not couched in carefully crafted academicspeak buried in an esoteric research paper.  Which is why it’s so good. I’m enjoying this thread - still don’t quite grasp the culture wars of CCA and IOR, but I’m starting to get a better feel for it.

Here’s Dan Spurr (author of “Heart of Glass”, I believe): This second installment of SAIL’s series on the evolution of modern sailboat design focuses on the 1970’s—the IOR decade and beyond

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4 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Really?  It’s going everywhere (which was sort of a problem, when various folks were getting really grouchy several hours ago).

1700 views, 150 posts.  I get 50 cents per view/click, so I’m doing alright :-)

I think there are plenty of interesting observations, accusations, and attestations in this thread - it’s a fascinating topic.  Think of it like the peer review process in an academic journal - except the sniping is done right out in the open, not couched in carefully crafted academicspeak buried in an esoteric research paper.  Which is why it’s so good. I’m enjoying this thread - still don’t quite grasp the culture wars of CCA and IOR, but I’m starting to get a better feel for it.

Here’s Dan Spurr (author of “Heart of Glass”, I believe): This second installment of SAIL’s series on the evolution of modern sailboat design focuses on the 1970’s—the IOR decade and beyond

If you want to read the D&UC book, I will happily loan you my copy. Or any of my other books, for that matter.

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1 hour ago, shaggybaxter said:

One dumb question from the peanut gallery. 

Does boat speed have a bearing in determining if a particular hull form is desirabie or undesirable?

I've been offshore in comfortable boats until the sea state builds to the point the boat is no longer comfortable and you're kinda trapped. When the wave sets are travelling faster than you, the boat goes from comfortable to downright awkward. You're options become limited to just toughing it out until mother nature gets bored and moves onto someone else. 

But if you are running quicker than the wave sets, the motion changes dramatically. The pitch/roll/yaw flattens out and the prior two handed half wheel turns as a wave catches you become an inch or two with a finger. Aside from the comfort level, one major advantage seems to be the fatigue level of the crew drops remarkably, which is another tick in the desirable column. And it seems to open up more options than just taking the flogging.  

So my question is......unless we were capable of doing the speeds necessary to stay in front of dirty sea states when this book was written, are the resultant higher boat speeds from the newer hull /rig designs a big enough of a change to alter some of the opinions and observations made in the books of this era? 

Thanks!

SB

 

Will the boat do that on autopilot? Will it go that fast, safely, with a husband and wife offshore who cannot be trimming and steering constantly? Serious  question, because I've only ever sailed leadmines offshore.

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3 hours ago, estarzinger said:

a pretty common finding.

there are usually very narrow bands or areas of quite significantly worst wind and waves.

it is one of the potential downsides of storm tactics which 'park' the boat - you would really rather NOT be parked in one of those peak zones - would really rather sail away from and out of them before you think about parking.

Which has all sorts of implications for boat design and tactics and weather thinking/planning.

 

This is where modern comms come into play. I have a reasonably fast boat - my main bad weather tactic is avoidance. If I know where the worst parts are via satellite, I can stop before I meet them, or I can sail away from the worst part and meet a lesser part. I never understand people with fairly capable boats, and a schedule imposed only by themselves, who insist on getting whacked. Schedules can be deadly - deliveries, owners, races....

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52 minutes ago, MikeJohns said:

Great sailing when it's from the right direction. sometimes a cross sea can make conditions a bit miserable though. Our best averages well over 200 mile days are in gales in the right direction. Exhilerating but rotating the helm every half hour between the few crew that could helm downwind at night on a compass bearing.

Why wasn't the autopilot steering? 

42 minutes ago, estarzinger said:

Many people under appreciate wave physics. Fully developed seas/waves from 30kt winds will average 17kts speed.  Not many cruising boats can sustain 17kt average . . . and that is not even in a gale when the required speed would be higher (like a sustained 23kt average boat speed) to 'stay in front of the waves'.

This calls back to the other thread (on planing cruising boats) and the distortion of human perception about averages. Fully crewed racing trimarans have a chance of staying ahead of the weather, or getting out of its way. The boats most us have (and that includes the Pogos), don't. 

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10 minutes ago, CapDave said:

This is where modern comms come into play. 

yes, exactly.

A small complication is that the gribs particularly (but also the 'human' met products, especially offshore) systematically underrepresent these 'small hot zones'. So you as the user need to have enough knowledge/experience to know when they will likely be there based on the system that is shown.  This has gotten better over time as grib cell sizes have decreased but is still an area where human judgement and art is quite valuable.

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3 minutes ago, estarzinger said:

yes, exactly.

A small complication is that the gribs particularly (but also the 'human' met products, especially offshore) systematically underrepresent these 'small hot zones'. So you as the user need to have enough knowledge/experience to know when they will likely be there based on the system that is shown.  This has gotten better over time as grib cell sizes have decreased but is still an area where human judgement and art is quite valuable.

Absolutely true, and too many people have become over-reliant on intra-cell interpolations by fancy software with pretty pictures. Looking at CAPE charts and the 850mb chart helps...but a little meteorology knowledge, experience, situational awareness, and the resulting feel for the weather helps more. 

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5 minutes ago, estarzinger said:

I came close to building an Irons tri (a 50) - until the wife nixed it, she has no problem with speed or risk but did not like the motion at all.

Do you have a boat currently? Just curious.

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6 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Do you have a boat currently? Just curious.

no, parent are a full time job atm. We made the very excellent decision to keep them in the family, rather than go the typical 'elderly living arrangement'.  It is a significant commitment but well worth it for both them and us.  I have 'plans' when I am free again, but who knows what will happen.

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Having returned at the right time to increasingly help my folks, I can relate Evans. They are still on their own (Dad is 89 and Mom is 88 with dementia) and pretty happy that way, but if Mom goes first we'll talk about him moving into our apartment building instead of a care home.

Way too many people look at one Grib forecast for 1 day or think that one of the Predict wind proprietary Gribs is somehow magical and can give better results. So if it differs from from the GFS or ECMF they believe it.

 

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2 hours ago, Ishmael said:

If you want to read the D&UC book, I will happily loan you my copy. Or any of my other books, for that matter.

Very kind of you, Ish - if we make it around the Island this summer (it’s about having enough time), I’ll look you up.  (Likewise if you’re up in these parts, shoot me a message. Will PM you.)

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1 hour ago, CapDave said:

Absolutely true, and too many people have become over-reliant on intra-cell interpolations by fancy software with pretty pictures. Looking at CAPE charts and the 850mb chart helps...but a little meteorology knowledge, experience, situational awareness, and the resulting feel for the weather helps more. 

850mb chart?  (I’ve never heard of them.)  I thought that the “thing” to do, other than using a standard surface synoptic chart, was looking at 500mb charts?  (E.g., some well known books have been written on using 500mb charts for forecasting.)  In a nutshell, how are 850mb charts  different in terms of what they show/allow you to forecast?

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9 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

You know who to get the best advice from? Delivery skippers.

It isn't their boat, they aren't in love with her and blind to her flaws. They have to get the boat from A to B despite the weather or the owner would be making the trip, so they bang through uncomfortable weather instead of waiting a few weeks for the perfect reach in 15 knots. They sail a variety of boats, not just one.

* pet rant, total n00b sails around the world in a Catalina 30 with orange sails or an old wood schooner or whatever and then becomes an expert in everything and decides his way is the only way to do it. He has never tried anything else :rolleyes:

Most of my deliveries were in unseaworthy boats (by any sane definition), usually single-handed (not my habit to put anyone else through it).  No owners.

No exotic stuff, the usual clunkers, 23' to 60'.  Always looking for the problems encountered on the previous boat, missing the gremlins left by previous owners.  Learning which brokers to trust was a help.

The need to press on didn't extend to going out in stupid conditions but we all get caught sometime.  For all the fantastic claims made by weather gods, I'm not convinced that we've come a long way, to the point that we can predict a specific wind at a certain time in a particular place.  If the prediction doesn't look anything like the basic synoptic chart, I tend to believe the chart.

If some retired boat deliverer wants to write his story, I'll buy it.  Not me, I have enough enemies already.

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5 hours ago, shaggybaxter said:

One dumb question from the peanut gallery. 

Does boat speed have a bearing in determining if a particular hull form is desirabie or undesirable?

I've been offshore in comfortable boats until the sea state builds to the point the boat is no longer comfortable and you're kinda trapped. When the wave sets are travelling faster than you, the boat goes from comfortable to downright awkward. You're options become limited to just toughing it out until mother nature gets bored and moves onto someone else. 

But if you are running quicker than the wave sets, the motion changes dramatically. The pitch/roll/yaw flattens out and the prior two handed half wheel turns as a wave catches you become an inch or two with a finger. Aside from the comfort level, one major advantage seems to be the fatigue level of the crew drops remarkably, which is another tick in the desirable column. And it seems to open up more options than just taking the flogging.  

So my question is......unless we were capable of doing the speeds necessary to stay in front of dirty sea states when this book was written, are the resultant higher boat speeds from the newer hull /rig designs a big enough of a change to alter some of the opinions and observations made in the books of this era? 

Thanks!

SB

 

With heavy cruisers following seas always travel faster than the boat. As he hull on these boats gets sucked downwards at speed the boat tends to wallow at the mercy of the speeding lumps. Often with dramatic pitching. With a light plane-able cruiser the waves usually travel faster than the boat but pass underneath much slower, with much less drama. If the boat travels faster than the waves, as happens with the very fastest crewed boats, punching into the back of waves becomes a concern. At best it rinses the decks. At worst the bow stops while the stern continues onwards causing an abrupt change in scenery.

You seem to have a good understanding of the issues. Books say the typical trade wind wave conditions are 6 feet every 9 seconds. I've spent days in those conditions under autopilot, sleeping even, without issues. (SC50) Boat speed varying from 10 to 15 knots. Perhaps 20 on the odd wave or in a squall. The waves usually pass slowly and are sometimes slowly overtaken. Most remarkable: no pitching. I never sail DDW but 30° or more up where some constant wind pressure prevents the roll as waves pass. It is fun. 

The older and slower boats I have cruised behaved comparatively badly as each passing wave toys with the stern. Exhausting indeed as the rudder movements are large and frequent. The apparent wind is high, sometimes wet. The stern rises, the boat turns, then heels, then repeats on the other side, the crew barfs.

The older authors were likely ignorant of the possibilities. Then stubborness set in as their chunderbeast world crumbled. That was way back in the 70's and 80's. One would think the sailing world was past all the discussion by now.

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3 hours ago, estarzinger said:

no, parent are a full time job atm. We made the very excellent decision to keep them in the family, rather than go the typical 'elderly living arrangement'.  It is a significant commitment but well worth it for both them and us.  I have 'plans' when I am free again, but who knows what will happen.

We lost the last one of our parents last night, we also made the decision to stay around while we could enjoy them or at least support them. No regrets.

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Sorry to hear that Ish. It was a few years ago for us.

One of the things we noticed is that there is no longer anyone to ask "family" questions.

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4 hours ago, estarzinger said:

Many people under appreciate wave physics. Fully developed seas/waves from 30kt winds will average 17kts speed.  Not many cruising boats can sustain 17kt average . . . and that is not even in a gale when the required speed would be higher (like a sustained 23kt average boat speed) to 'stay in front of the waves'.

 

 

1 hour ago, Borracho said:

With heavy cruisers following seas always travel faster than the boat. As he hull on these boats gets sucked downwards at speed the boat tends to wallow at the mercy of the speeding lumps. Often with dramatic pitching. With a light plane-able cruiser the waves usually travel faster than the boat but pass underneath much slower, with much less drama. If the boat travels faster than the waves, as happens with the very fastest crewed boats, punching into the back of waves becomes a concern. At best it rinses the decks. At worst the bow stops while the stern continues onwards causing an abrupt change in scenery.

You seem to have a good understanding of the issues. Books say the typical trade wind wave conditions are 6 feet every 9 seconds. I've spent days in those conditions under autopilot, sleeping even, without issues. (SC50) Boat speed varying from 10 to 15 knots. Perhaps 20 on the odd wave or in a squall. The waves usually pass slowly and are sometimes slowly overtaken. Most remarkable: no pitching. I never sail DDW but 30° or more up where some constant wind pressure prevents the roll as waves pass. It is fun. 

The older and slower boats I have cruised behaved comparatively badly as each passing wave toys with the stern. Exhausting indeed as the rudder movements are large and frequent. The apparent wind is high, sometimes wet. The stern rises, the boat turns, then heels, then repeats on the other side, the crew barfs.

The older authors were likely ignorant of the possibilities. Then stubborness set in as their chunderbeast world crumbled. That was way back in the 70's and 80's. One would think the sailing world was past all the discussion by now.

Thanks gents, I didn't realise it was that high an average, great info. 

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3 hours ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

850mb chart?  (I’ve never heard of them.)  I thought that the “thing” to do, other than using a standard surface synoptic chart, was looking at 500mb charts?  (E.g., some well known books have been written on using 500mb charts for forecasting.)  In a nutshell, how are 850mb charts  different in terms of what they show/allow you to forecast?

Not a sailor (still wannabe) but an amateur weather nerd:  At a basic level, 500mb is higher up in the atmo and a lot of the weird "ground effect" smaller details smooth out into a larger synoptic scale pattern that is easier to read.  850mb is kind of a halfway point between surface and upper atmo dynamics.  The way I read weather maps is:

What I mean by that is if I want to know what it will be like at a given position, I'll use the lower atmo maps.  That would give me (if I sailed, which feels more like a fucking pipe dream each year, grumble grumble) at least a ballpark wind-speed/direction.  But it's more difficult to read those lower level maps and estimate what direction the air mass in general is moving, which is what tells me how I can expect weather conditions to evolve from a given point in time.

For me, and other folks with more experience will definitely have better/more nuanced answers, I'm not sure that there is any particular advantage for sailors to using 850mb versus MSLP.  If you're willing to get into nitty gritty details, maybe the 850mb might let you better discern sub-synoptic features like a short wave rotating around a low pressure center?  Not sure anyone is going to do that level of amateur analysis on a cross though; probably easier to identify potential micro-scale features using precip maps.  Either way, the 850mb is still not going to give you a better sense of synoptic scale movements than the 500mb.

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8 hours ago, SemiSalt said:

For those who have an interest in IOR yachts, I recommend following Julian Everitt on Facebook. He is an Englishman who designed a lot of IOR boats. His comments make it clear that the IOR changed over the years, so all the boats don't have all the flaws and idiosyncrasies. 

Seconded. I have one of his designs, a late 70s designed half tonner. I don't recognise the peanut gallery's "IOR boats suck" characteristics in it.

 (Of course, the really awful IOR boats will mostly have been scrapped by now. The ones still sailing are generally good boats).

 Julian Everitt's commentary on rating systems, yacht design,  keel security,  America's cup sailing etc are well worth seeking out.

Cheers, 

               W.

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7 hours ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Really?  It’s going everywhere (which was sort of a problem, when various folks were getting really grouchy several hours ago).

1700 views, 150 posts.  I get 50 cents per view/click, so I’m doing alright :-)

I think there are plenty of interesting observations, accusations, and attestations in this thread - it’s a fascinating topic.  Think of it like the peer review process in an academic journal - except the sniping is done right out in the open, not couched in carefully crafted academicspeak buried in an esoteric research paper.  Which is why it’s so good. I’m enjoying this thread - still don’t quite grasp the culture wars of CCA and IOR, but I’m starting to get a better feel for it.

Here’s Dan Spurr (author of “Heart of Glass”, I believe): This second installment of SAIL’s series on the evolution of modern sailboat design focuses on the 1970’s—the IOR decade and beyond

Early on it wasn't, it was just the same ol same ol.  Glad to see it's being well discussed without the typical thread degradation.

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1 hour ago, WGWarburton said:

Seconded. I have one of his designs, a late 70s designed half tonner. I don't recognise the peanut gallery's "IOR boats suck" characteristics in it.

The only Julian Everett boat I ever saw up close was an Eliminator 32.   There's a good page on it at https://julianeveritt.com/2017/02/07/eliminator-32/ ... which confirms my recollection of its warped shape.

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9 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

The only Julian Everett boat I ever saw up close was an Eliminator 32.   There's a good page on it at https://julianeveritt.com/2017/02/07/eliminator-32/ ... which confirms my recollection of its warped shape.

That's the one- Woofer and Eliminator were both in Ireland fairly recently, may still be. Kermit was there for a while, too, before coming back to Scotland.

 Big for a half-tonner, most of them (including mine) were built too heavy to be competitive but roomy inside, nice wide decks. Could do with more crew weight than we normally have on board.

 Fun to sail- responsive, goes well upwind. Not had any issues with downwind stability. Simple single-spreader rig.

What's not to like?

Cheers,

             W.

 

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10 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

Fun to sail- responsive, goes well upwind. Not had any issues with downwind stability. Simple single-spreader rig.

What's not to like?

1402443503_Eliminator32forefoot.jpg.893afbfacfaa42186ae8a2d9e975100f.jpgFor starters, this forefoot.  Then the stern set up so it can't actually do any work.

I am glad that you are happy with your boat, but it's well loaded with IOR bad attributes.

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