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Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics of Offshore Yachts


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8 hours ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

That chart puts it all in perspective

It can be difficult down there . . . . . but on the other hand . . . . . a couple young Italians have crossed it on a beach cat and all manor of small shitty plywood and fiberglass boats have done extensive cruising there.  We have two good friends who have spent a lot of time down there in 30' plywood boats (one french - home built light weight stitch and glue) and the other a plywood Golden Hind (an old UK 'coastal' bilge keel design). And Eric Forsyth was 3 times down there in a westsail 42 (Fiona). I am not recommending this (just to be crystal clear for the peanut gallery), and it obviously increases the risks and places more on the skipper's shoulders (and it would help to be young), I don't know what this says about "Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics:" but you don't absolutely need a battleship to go down there. 

The absolute greatest barrier for Chile, is that it is simply a long way away, across several weather zone.  It is a pretty huge commitment just to get there.  If somehow you could sail thru a portal and be immediately in Puerto Williams, it would all probably be viewed as rather less intimidating. 

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That in no way diminishes the validity of their choices. They are buying the boat for themselves, not for you or me. I happen to prefer a deep fin, spade rudder, tall carbon rig, paradoxically on a wo

This has turned into Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics of Offshore Posters.

You know who to get the best advice from? Delivery skippers. It isn't their boat, they aren't in love with her and blind to her flaws. They have to get the boat from A to B despite the weather or

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12 hours ago, estarzinger said:

^^ nice, Ordered, thanks

"the evidence shows casualties that have been considered acts of god probably resulted from an ignorance or neglect of age-old practices of seamanship." 

Yea, often the case when you look closely.  There is definitely 'bad luck happened', but seamanship is designed to see you thru most of it.

We've met a lot of cruisers who've begun sailing late in life.  Tough to learn seamanship without experience but to their credit they seem proficient and cautious.

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10 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Were I building a boat for high latitudes work it'd be one of the multi-chine designs with a hydraulic lifting daggerboard. In steel. I can't see how the interior can work in less than 15m LOD and ~4m of beam though so it's then a lot of boat to handle with small crew.

FKT

I would just buy this one :-) 

https://www.oceanyachtsales.com/boats-for-sale/1993-caroff-47-4512596/

Already sold.  Someone got a hell of a very well outfitted boat, tons of spares, tools, etc.  Only C$150K.  At 47’, bit more boat than I want, however. (She used to be run as an expedition/classroom boat for a program called “Students on Ice”.)

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15 hours ago, accnick said:

Q: Why didn't the English invent television?

A: The couldn't figure out a way to make it leak oil.

Brilliant. I gonna steal that.

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1 hour ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

I would just buy this one :-) 

https://www.oceanyachtsales.com/boats-for-sale/1993-caroff-47-4512596/

Already sold.  Someone got a hell of a very well outfitted boat, tons of spares, tools, etc.  Only C$150K.  At 47’, bit more boat than I want, however. (She used to be run as an expedition/classroom boat for a program called “Students on Ice”.)

That is a pretty sweet looking deal. Bit of step up from the Collander 25 I currently sail.

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^^

is that the boat Grant Redvers was running? or is it a second hull/copy?  Grant's boat did not sail very well, but you could ram a battleship with it and the battleship would come off 2nd best.

  

3 hours ago, Bryanjb said:

We've met a lot of cruisers who've begun sailing late in life.  Tough to learn seamanship without experience but to their credit they seem proficient and cautious.

Yea, I'm impressed by what some people manage when they are retired and then start sailing. I am super happy we went sailing when we were young.  We could have any boat we wanted now, which was not so much the case back then . . . but way overriding that there is the age thing, and then parents, and then what covid has done to international travel, and some other factors . . . . I think if we had waited until now we almost certainly would not have been able to do what we did . . . and I am a better person for having told the Corporate World to fuck off :)

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42 minutes ago, estarzinger said:

^^

is that the boat Grant Redvers was running? or is it a second hull/copy?  Grant's boat did not sail very well, but you could ram a battleship with it and the battleship would come off 2nd best.

  

Yea, I'm impressed by what some people manage when they are retired and then start sailing. I am super happy we went sailing when we were young.  We could have any boat we wanted now, which was not so much the case back then . . . but way overriding that there is the age thing, and then parents, and then what covid has done to international travel, and some other factors . . . . I think if we had waited until now we almost certainly would not have been able to do what we did . . . and I am a better person for having told the Corporate World to fuck off :)

I think so - rings a bell.  Yeah, she looks like she’s a heavy beast.  A real workhorse - among other things, even comes with a shore survival kit (since being stranded ashore in some places up there, whether a polar bear has destroyed your dinghy or the mother ship had to pull anchor and scoot away because of deteriorating conditions, you could be in trouble, of course.). Special purpose vessel, for sure.  A bit much even for the average “adventure cruiser”.

(Indeed...corporate world is best kept far at bay.  I was working at Moody’s years ago, and just as they started to go through the process of going public, to be spun off from the parent company, it started to get very unpleasant...different vibe entirely...I left soon after...alas, not to go cruising :-) ) 

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6 hours ago, estarzinger said:

It can be difficult down there . . . . . but on the other hand . . . . . a couple young Italians have crossed it on a beach cat and all manor of small shitty plywood and fiberglass boats have done extensive cruising there.  We have two good friends who have spent a lot of time down there in 30' plywood boats (one french - home built light weight stitch and glue) and the other a plywood Golden Hind (an old UK 'coastal' bilge keel design). And Eric Forsyth was 3 times down there in a westsail 42 (Fiona). I am not recommending this (just to be crystal clear for the peanut gallery), and it obviously increases the risks and places more on the skipper's shoulders (and it would help to be young), I don't know what this says about "Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics:" but you don't absolutely need a battleship to go down there. 

The absolute greatest barrier for Chile, is that it is simply a long way away, across several weather zone.  It is a pretty huge commitment just to get there.  If somehow you could sail thru a portal and be immediately in Puerto Williams, it would all probably be viewed as rather less intimidating. 

We’re starting to diverge again into desirable and undesirable characteristics of offshore sailors (not yachts) :-).  (Nothing wrong with that, of course, and the topics are certainly related).

If that Golden Hind sailor is the same one who later wintered over in the Canadian Arctic, then I’d guess his/their seamanship credentials are impeccable...(as for the Italians, I assume not the same ones who wrote the Italian guide?!  Impressive in a beach cat).  

Indeed - it is a very long way away: the first barrier to entry seems like it’s having a good vessel (and skills) just to *get* there.  (I view my recent purchase of a very cheap take-apart Luke anchor as the first symbolic step :-) ) Certainly seems easier to get there if starting from S. Africa, for example - “just” a loop around the S. Atlantic.  My oldest childhood friend now lives in Ecuador, which would afford a good midway stop - but going down that side of S. America from N. America certainly doesn’t seem easy. (I recall Hal Roth talking about that in his classic Cape Horn book.)

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4 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

for the Italians, I assume not the same ones who wrote the Italian guide?! 

No some quite young guys, I met them, but dont know them. Mariolina & Giorgio (on the guide) sailed an Amel.

If that Golden Hind sailor is the same one who later wintered over in the Canadian Arctic, then his seamanship credentials are impeccable.

Yes, he is a bit of an "extra tall" story teller :) . . but is a good seaman.

My oldest childhood friend now lives in Ecuador, 

Nice, and potentially helpful. But yea, while it is doable, but that is a not so great upwind way to get there.

 

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1 hour ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Special purpose vessel, for sure.  A bit much even for the average “adventure cruiser”.

 

I had a friend who almost bought Seamaster/Tara which was the real deal for serious ice in a 'yacht' but I convinced them it was not right for them and they later thanked me - they were Italians with a sense of style and would never have felt right in the boat as it was just too brutal. 

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That’s such a stereotype - but so true (about Italians, generally) :-).  No surprise that they make beautiful but rugged, world-class leather alpine climbing boots - and very swanky men’s and women’s dress shoes too :-)

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On 4/20/2021 at 2:58 PM, shaggybaxter said:

Hiya Cruising,

Up to and into the 30's yes, and better than me (which might not be a high bar :) ). When the wind/sea state picked up I'd engage the pilot and then stand in the cabinway and watch the helm, adjusting everything till the wheel was moving a few inches at a time. The big difference between the electronic brain and me was it would react earlier and with less input, ie: as soon as the heel of the boat changed from a passing wave picking up a corner of the boat.    

There were a couple of things you had to keep in mind:

- Hard core VMG mode doesn't work well in big seas. If I was set to say 40-45 TWA, going over a wave can push you head to wind and every now and then the pilot could struggle to put enough helm into it to correct it. As the sea state increased I'd add some buffer in and fall off to 55-60 TWA. It would handle that all day. Same thing for DDW, I wouldn't have the pilot on below 160TWA in big seas. 

-Shit in-shit out still holds true. The pilot is only as good as the inputs, and the input sensors all have a bonkers amount of correction and sample rate adjustments you can apply. It took time to get the optimal settings worked out. We used to get a lot of upwash over the masthead when running deep with a full main which would throw out your Apparent wind speed/angle, so I had to work out an autopilot mode for that for example.  

- Comfort. Like the inputs, the output (helm response) is adjustable. You could set it to aggressive and in big seas it would track on rails but the motion is violent. Or you could back off to a more leisurely setting so you can make a cup of tea but the course track would be more vague and wander about the heading somewhat. That was the key to running close-hauled or deep when you had to, simply set the AP to be more aggressive. Big difference in helm response. 

 But in short, absolutely I trusted the AP in big seas without a full crew. 

Cheers!

SB

Edit: I only used it once in 40 knots plus, and that was on a broad reach under white sails with too much sail up and it handled it fine. You're planing though and bow up, so the pilot isn't working that hard bizarrely. But man there is a big difference from 30's to 40's, 30's is enjoyable, 40's is not.       

 

   

 

That is cool. I figured that would be sorted out, since the singlehanders racing those types clearly aren't hand-steering trans-Atlantic. Reinforces my opinion that that is one of the coolest cruising boats on the planet.

I'm still not parting with Restive, as she meets with the wife's approval.

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19 hours ago, accnick said:

 

Q: Why didn't the English invent television?

A: The couldn't figure out a way to make it leak oil.

They must not have tried very hard... compound lens systems (e.g. in projection TV's) are oil-filled.  Refractive index and all that.  Here, I've got a few in my optics junk box...

214210057_TVlens.png.d3c859f81536a77813fe8b30ee8eae76.png

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10 hours ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

I would just buy this one :-) 

https://www.oceanyachtsales.com/boats-for-sale/1993-caroff-47-4512596/

Already sold.  Someone got a hell of a very well outfitted boat, tons of spares, tools, etc.  Only C$150K.  At 47’, bit more boat than I want, however. (She used to be run as an expedition/classroom boat for a program called “Students on Ice”.)

Yeah you couldn't build it for that price even doing it yourself.

That's the sort of hull I'd had in mind though a bit smaller. The killer is the daggerboard and the amount of space it takes up.

As for getting to Chile it's easy from where I live. Not necessarily *pleasant*, but easy. Downwind run in the 40's.

FKT

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1 minute ago, estarzinger said:

uh-huh ^_^ 

Been done lots of times by lots of people. Running down the 40's.

Easy. Not pleasant.

FKT

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3 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Been done lots of times by lots of people. Running down the 40's.

Easy. Not pleasant.

FKT

I've actually done most of it - we left from Dunedin 

.....

 

I also did 59 days non-stop in the 40's . . cape horn to perth

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Just now, estarzinger said:

I've actually done most of it - we left from Dunedin 

Respect - it's a long way on a big ocean that can play rough.

I used to spend 2-3 months every year down there in a big ship mostly south of 50 up until I retired. Running down the 40's is one thing, I'd do that in a suitable boat, going into the 50's and closer to the 60's in a small boat takes a lot more ability and willingness to take risks than I have the stomach for.

FKT

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I was not disagreeing with your overall thought . . . but perhaps just quibbling casually about the word choice -  it crossed my mind whether 'easy' was really the best word choice. Not adding anything useful to Jud's thread.

as you said in your 2nd post its like 5,000nm in a big ocean - not only can it play rough, but in between the rough, you can be becalmed in big swell.  

I might have tried 'not complicated'  . . but even that does not feel exactly right 

 

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2 hours ago, estarzinger said:

I was not disagreeing with your overall thought . . . but perhaps just quibbling casually about the word choice -  it crossed my mind whether 'easy' was really the best word choice. Not adding anything useful to Jud's thread.

as you said in your 2nd post its like 5,000nm in a big ocean - not only can it play rough, but in between the rough, you can be becalmed in big swell.  

I might have tried 'not complicated'  . . but even that does not feel exactly right 

 

I was thinking more of the prevailing winds and currents when I said 'easy'. That's why I also said 'not pleasant'.

As for the boat characteristics thing, I think it depends on your use-case, number of crew, physical fitness and willingness to take risks as much as it does the vessel. And what 'offshore' means to you which is heavily dependent on your latitude. Here it means sailing in the 40's as soon as you leave Storm Bay with everything that implies. New Zealand is closest and ~10 days to Bluff, maybe 6 in a fast boat. How good is the forecasting? Friends of mine did 11 days Hobart to Nelson in a pretty much brand new 40' cutter, left on a perfect forecast, one gale and 16 hours in a nasty cross sea with no wind before they got there. Even crossing Bass Strait it's maybe 70 hours Schouten Island to Eden.

So really hard to say without specifying distance and latitude. It seems pretty much anything that floats can go downwind in the tropics. High latitudes in the southern hemisphere seem to be a lot more rough weather than the northern ones or at least the distances to shelter are much greater.

FKT

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2 hours ago, estarzinger said:

I was not disagreeing with your overall thought . . . but perhaps just quibbling casually about the word choice -  it crossed my mind whether 'easy' was really the best word choice. Not adding anything useful to Jud's thread.

as you said in your 2nd post its like 5,000nm in a big ocean - not only can it play rough, but in between the rough, you can be becalmed in big swell.  

I might have tried 'not complicated'  . . but even that does not feel exactly right 

 

Trevor Robertson’s write up of his logs from EnZed to Antarctica gives a good sense (to one who’s never been there) of the bittersweet flavour of “running down the eastings” :-) 

http://iron-bark.blogspot.com/2018/08/another-voyage-from-new-zealand-to.html?m=1

(or as he puts it with inimitable understated and terse stiff upper lip here, “Any long Southern Ocean voyage is likely to be rough; this one certainly was.”  (I suppose what’s not written there is more revealing than what is.)

Keeping to topic, maybe it suggests the desirability (viability?) of an easily-handled gaff rigger (i.e., a boat presumably with decent sail area for decent speed) on long passages like this (especially singlehanded).  Although I doubt he flew the topsail, as he was under bare poles enough to probably warrant not wanting to ever have too much sail up to be able to strike quickly?) Not sure what other conclusions we can draw. 

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On 4/21/2021 at 6:56 PM, Ishmael said:

Despite good weather routing, we ended up off the Oregon coast in mid-fifties gusting 60+. We got pooped in the middle of the night and the helmsman (autopilot watcher) and I (conversation) were both washed out of the cockpit

As my wife likes to say about that area - it's not a beginner's coast.

Did you sail a long way offshore from the coast? What time of year was it?

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8 hours ago, toddster said:

They must not have tried very hard... compound lens systems (e.g. in projection TV's) are oil-filled.  Refractive index and all that.  Here, I've got a few in my optics junk box...

214210057_TVlens.png.d3c859f81536a77813fe8b30ee8eae76.png

Can't be a Lucas. No smoke pouring out of it.

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On 4/21/2021 at 6:56 PM, Ishmael said:

In light of the "around the world in less than 35 knots" comments, I have to say that Juan de Fuca Strait to San Francisco was an enlightening first foray into open ocean sailing, only a hundred miles off the coast. Despite good weather routing, we ended up off the Oregon coast in mid-fifties gusting 60+. We got pooped in the middle of the night and the helmsman (autopilot watcher) and I (conversation) were both washed out of the cockpit. We were tethered and stopped inside the lifelines.

Coming back from Hawaii was a pleasure cruise.

Zonker’s reply above made me remember your post, Ish - I meant to reply (although we’re straying dangerously off topic here...into weather routing?!? -) )

I sailed, as crew, Victoria to San Francisco in 1990- as, like, a mostly clueless 24 year old. No weather routing.  A retired general contractor skipper who’d built his Corbin 39 from a bare hull in Ontario and taken it down the Missippi, Caribbean, through the Ditch, Hawaii, and up to Vancouver.  Seemed experienced. I trusted him, in other words.  Left sometime in summer...can’t recall details.  Maybe it was sheer luck...we were quite seasick (first time ever) heading out J de F, then a hundred (???) miles offshore, three days later it subsided and we wanted to live again, dolphins playing in the bow wave, and then the Golden Gate appeared - life was good again!  I.e., no crazy weather off Oregon/N. Cal.  Remember, 1990, no weather routing.

A few years ago, I did a basic weather/routing course with a former Canadian Navy Commander (the dude drives battleships...), he’s won the Vic-Maui in a classic wooden sailing ship (the Oriole), crossed the Pacific a number of times...then during a family cruise sabbatical southbound on a 50’er cruising boat, he was very rudely surprised with 50-60 kts somewhere there (Oregon/N. Cal) in unforeseen/unforecasted comditions.  Too close inshore? Dunno. I can’t remember, unfortunately. (Actually, I’ll email and ask him as I’m curious what the details were.)
 

So, weather routing that wasn’t good enough?  Or good weather routing that simply (by its nature/current state of the art and technology) couldn’t foresee “everything”?

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2 hours ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Trevor Robertson’s write up of his logs from EnZed to Antarctica gives a good sense (to one who’s never been there) of the bittersweet flavour of “running down the eastings” :-) 

http://iron-bark.blogspot.com/2018/08/another-voyage-from-new-zealand-to.html?m=1

(or as he puts it with inimitable understated and terse stiff upper lip here, “Any long Southern Ocean voyage is likely to be rough; this one certainly was.”  (I suppose what’s not written there is more revealing than what is.)

Read 'The Totorore Voyage' for another take on it. If you can't find a copy from the title I'll dig out mine & give you the ISBN. I need to build more book cases, the shelving system here doesn't even rise to the 'chaotic' standard. IIRC Miles Hordern wrote a book about doing a South Pacific loop, left from NZ to Chile then up the Humbolt Current and back across the Pacific. Can't recall what latitudes he did the west-east passage.

Tilman stopped taking his top masts with him when he headed south.

FKT

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2 hours ago, Diarmuid said:

Can't be a Lucas. No smoke pouring out of it.

Can't be Lucas if it lights up. John Lucas was the original Prince of Darkness. 

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2 hours ago, Diarmuid said:

Can't be a Lucas. No smoke pouring out of it.

No electrics.  This part screws on over the top of the CRT.  I threw those away.

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3 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Even crossing Bass Strait it's maybe 70 hours Schouten Island to Eden.

FKT

Wife and I did Schouten to Eden in 39 hours, 2-up in our venerable 40' Vandestadt. It would be fair to say it was easy, but not fun ;)

 

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1 hour ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

I need to build more book cases, the shelving system here doesn't even rise to the 'chaotic' standard.

I so resemble that comment. I've had to resort to taking books to the dump as my three local charities asked me to stop bringing books down :(.

I found some of the coolest old bookstores in London when I was living over there. That was like Michael Jackson at a scouts jamboree. 

 

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18 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

I so resemble that comment. I've had to resort to taking books to the dump as my three local charities asked me to stop bringing books down :(.

I found some of the coolest old bookstores in London when I was living over there. That was like Michael Jackson at a scouts jamboree. 

 

Yeah same - we donate a ton to the 'wee free libraries' about the place, and on the swaps table at the local marina. It seems it's becoming less common to read paper books, I understand in theory the benefits of e-readers I just don't like them.

Some years ago we were in Fremantle and it cost us serious money to ship all the books we found back home. Everywhere we go we search out the used bookshops. Regular event when we're in Brisbane.

FKT

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6 hours ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Keeping to topic, maybe it suggests the desirability (viability?) of an easily-handled gaff rigger (i.e., a boat presumably with decent sail area for decent speed) on long passages like this (especially singlehanded).  ... Not sure what other conclusions we can draw. 

 

6 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

I was thinking more of the prevailing winds and currents when I said 'easy'. That's why I also said 'not pleasant'.

As for the boat characteristics thing, I think it depends on your use-case,

On the boat for the 40's/50's - I would have a couple thoughts.

#1 durability - long passages with a combination of rough weather and rolling in a big swell with no wind is pretty hard on the boat.  Our longest one (from horn to perth) was pretty much flawless, but I did have a longer than usual list of things small things which needed upgrading's at the end (things like like the boom gooseneck needed some work which had just taken several hundred thousand fatigue cycles).  The one from Dunedin to Chile we has a weld on a full fuel tank hairline crack and it wept just a super small amount of diesel every wave (just enough to cause a serious diesel smell in the cabin) - was pretty much impossible to fix at sea.  The run from Perth to Tasi - one of our harken bat cars blew up and chewed up the track so you could not raise or lower the main without ball bearings falling out to deck.  We flew the trysail for a bit, and I went up the mast and took a good section off the top of the track and put it in place of the bad section so we could then fly the main with one reef in.  This was all on a boat that already was well shaken in and well maintained - there was just a lot of fatigue cycling on these passages.

#2 there was ALOT of sail handling - needs be easy.  There was a pretty regular 3 or 4 day cycle as lows rotated around and over us - and you saw pretty much every weather and flew every sail over that 3 or 4 day period.  In the ridge between the lows you had light to no wind and we would fly main plus zero trying not to roll in the swell. Then the wind would start to build and it would rotate, until you were in a gale with small sails.  then it would start all over again. As FKT says the angles would be decent if the lows stayed south of you,   but you would occasionally have one coming down on top of you from the tropics and then the angles were not so good - there was some 'clever' weather routing options usually when that happened about when was the exact best time to tack behind a low coming down in order to get the least head winds.  And the passages are long enough that you probably dont want to use fuel to allow the motor to just power you thru sections.

#3, a dry boat is a happy boat a combination of  insulation (including double panes on ports and hatches)  to reduce condensation and a good hard dodger went a long way to make it bare-able. 

On the human side - I enjoyed these passages more than many others because they were not boring.  My wife found a sweet spot in around the 20-40 day period when she was 'in the zone' and just gliding along but much past that she was ready to get off the boat as the stress and fatigue started to wear on her. She enjoyed mid and lower lat passages much more than I did and could go forever on them.

I would be tempted to say that boat size helps down there, but I know a lot of people who have done it is crazy small boats, so it would probably be wrong to push that too much.  I do think there is perhaps a break point around 35ft; where you have enough moment that you get knocked down rather less.

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1 hour ago, estarzinger said:

 

#3, a dry boat is a happy boat a combination of  insulation (including double panes on ports and hatches)  to reduce condensation and a good hard dodger went a long way to make it bare-able.

I could not agree more with this one. We are now well into the turn of the seasons here in Tasmania; I expect to get condensation on the small amount of exposed metal on the inside of my hull, judging from the past couple of years. I heavily insulated my hull and cabin sides but 'cleverly' installed opening bronze ports. I would have to say that no other piece of gear has caused me more cursing during their machining from the castings, and now they get condensation on the inside - and drip RIGHT ONTO MY HEAD in the V berth.

So I made & installed drip catchers on every one. That has stopped the drips disturbing my sleep but not the drips themselves. Also the steel exposed on the cabin side to cabin top bolted joint condenses water - I will have to put cork or some similar trim over it.

You mention double panes - one of my 'bright' ideas is to make infill inserts to go on the outside of the cabin to keep the cold air from the exposed bronze of the ports. So far it's just an idea. I have many. A few of them get built. A subset of those actually work. So it goes. When I start muttering about Plan E my GF goes home to her cat.

Agree about the hard dodger too, in fact I've built one that's getting installed in a few weeks when I do the next haulout. It has a welded stainless tube sub-frame and a foam/glass/epoxy shell. I needed to relocate winches to it so it's quite a bit more robust than it otherwise would need to be.

I didn't build my boat for Southern Ocean sailing, just coastal and near coastal here in the 40's. Were I to do so I'd want to go up to maybe 13 to 15m and ~15 tonne displacement with a fully enclosed wheel house/pilot house and a heater I could run while underway. It's pretty easy to tolerate very cold conditions for short periods as long as you can get out of it and get warm & dry again. Even in winter in Antarctica we'd usually not put on the full cold weather gear if working outside for only 15 minutes or so. We'd get cold but be back out of it soon enough. And you didn't get wet of course.

Jud's boat, I'd be building a hard dodger for sure before heading to Chile.

FKT

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3 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Everywhere we go we search out the used bookshops. Regular event when we're in Brisbane.

Smart - pretty much guarantees buying new books for second hand book prices.

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On 4/18/2021 at 1:40 AM, Ishmael said:

I read it years ago, and it's an interesting read, if only for historical perspective. It has a place in any reasonable library alongside the other good books in the genre, but doesn't deserve pride of place.

elq6YB4Ftu_ttmijIVqtQ6fswKrFnJu4x09jIeHF

 

 

thou stole that pic of Shanghi and rotated it through 90 didn't thou <_<

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4 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

I understand in theory the benefits of e-readers I just don't like them.

#me too

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54 minutes ago, Se7en said:

Smart - pretty much guarantees buying new books for second hand book prices.

We restored a vacant old house in town and the owner turned it into a used bookstore. It was never planned to be profitable (thank god). It's a self serve bookstore normally with no clerk present: Leave your cash or check in the slot. 

543453044_Barnswallowtwilight(1of1).thumb.jpg.befda42cda865cbf03cb75b32d0d566b.jpg

The above is todays truth. New books, many out of print, are the bulk of used books today. 

Print is all over the place. Used books can be trash or treasure. We go through this all the time here (I manage the property). After the last 'sale' to benefit the local library, we're looking at a familiar upcoming 'purge'. 

After seeing how this worked in Venice a few years ago, I'm always tempted to 'build' something with the books.

But I know too much about buildings,...and future maintenance. 

steps.thumb.jpg.bb365318c59944fd3c9605ea5ae02f04.jpg

 

 

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Off topic comment; this must be one of the most enjoyable threads ever for me on SA. I've done a bit of blue water sailing, mainly in temperate waters but just about every comment is teaching or making me reconsider, something new.

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1 hour ago, Kris Cringle said:

We restored a vacant old house in town and the owner turned it into a used bookstore. It was never planned to be profitable (thank god). It's a self serve bookstore normally with no clerk present: Leave your cash or check in the slot. 

543453044_Barnswallowtwilight(1of1).thumb.jpg.befda42cda865cbf03cb75b32d0d566b.jpg

The above is todays truth. New books, many out of print, are the bulk of used books today. 

Print is all over the place. Used books can be trash or treasure. We go through this all the time here (I manage the property). After the last 'sale' to benefit the local library, we're looking at a familiar upcoming 'purge'. 

After seeing how this worked in Venice a few years ago, I'm always tempted to 'build' something with the books.

But I know too much about buildings,...and future maintenance. 

steps.thumb.jpg.bb365318c59944fd3c9605ea5ae02f04.jpg

 

 

Living a peripatetic life as a book worm has its challenges. It also means I have cashes of books stashed all over the world. The downside is people ask you when you are going to come and get them. The upside is there is always something you haven't read in a while when you do come to visit. 

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8 hours ago, shaggybaxter said:

I so resemble that comment. I've had to resort to taking books to the dump as my three local charities asked me to stop bringing books down :(.

I found some of the coolest old bookstores in London when I was living over there. That was like Michael Jackson at a scouts jamboree.

I absolutely hate throwing books away - even broken paperbacks with loose pages.

It feels immoral.

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47 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

I absolutely hate throwing books away - even broken paperbacks with loose pages.

It feels immoral.

We donate them to our local newspaper's book drive if they are in good shape. Broken books...blue bin. 

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17 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

 

I used to spend 2-3 months every year down there in a big ship mostly south of 50 up until I retired. R

idk anything about ships - is there a lot of learning from them you can apply to our small boats (boat stuff, not seamanship) - or are they fundamentally too different from our small boats to have many lessons cross-apply

1 hour ago, Bull City said:

Desirable or Undesirable?

 

Bull - Jud says this sort of crew question was off topic ;)  But can the reef or hold a course at 0-dark hundred? If not, probably way way Undesirable on an offshore yacht :P

14 hours ago, Zonker said:

As my wife likes to say about that area - it's not a beginner's coast.

 

Yea, everyone gets one small hammering along there. It is at least usually downwind - teaches some useful early lessons about reefing and balancing. 

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10 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Everywhere we go we search out the used bookshops. Regular event when we're in Brisbane.

Been to Archive Fine Books in Brisbane CBD? That's a treasure.

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2 hours ago, estarzinger said:

Bull - Jud says this sort of crew question was off topic ;)  But can the reef or hold a course at 0-dark hundred? If not, probably way way Undesirable on an offshore yacht :P

Crew question! I was talking about two wheels instead of one tiller! :P

As to seamanship, should both wheels be manned at once? If he goes port and she goes starboard, wouldn't they risk splitting the boat in two?

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37 minutes ago, Bull City said:

Crew question! I was talking about two wheels instead of one tiller! :P

As to seamanship, should both wheels be manned at once? If he goes port and she goes starboard, wouldn't they risk splitting the boat in two?

ln my observations, a boat with two helm stations is not conducive to a happy marriage...

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40 minutes ago, Bull City said:

Crew question! I was talking about two wheels instead of one tiller! :P

As to seamanship, should both wheels be manned at once? If he goes port and she goes starboard, wouldn't they risk splitting the boat in two?

there were wheels?  I will have to go look again.

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On 4/22/2021 at 5:59 AM, estarzinger said:

The absolute greatest barrier for Chile, is that it is simply a long way away, across several weather zone.  It is a pretty huge commitment just to get there.  If somehow you could sail thru a portal and be immediately in Puerto Williams, it would all probably be viewed as rather less intimidating. 

This is it for us - the elapsed time to get there, have a relatively short cruise there, and get away again, all in season, is considerable. Getting to the age where I need to listen to the clock ticking on cruising....not sure I want to use the time that way....

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46 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

? you'll have to explain that one to me.

book shelf looks similar to

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12 hours ago, estarzinger said:

I would be tempted to say that boat size helps down there, but I know a lot of people who have done it is crazy small boats, so it would probably be wrong to push that too much.  I do think there is perhaps a break point around 35ft; where you have enough moment that you get knocked down rather less.

I believe it was Miles Smeeton (of Tzu Hang fame) who once advised that it's best to "stay out of 40' waves with 40' boats". If you haven't read 'Once is Enough', worth reading.

When shopping for boats in FL in 1980, I once walked across Tzu Hang to look at the boat rafted outboard. Small boat sailing history came up right through my shoes. She was pretty tired by then....

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1 hour ago, Ishmael said:

Beginning of June. We went out 100 miles and then came back in to 50 to avoid the worst of it. Didn't work. 

20140617-035503-2.jpg.8feab25a0a4f22136d6cf5cf59a57b41.jpg

http://sailvalis.com/wordpress_1/?p=597

 

Done this trip three times.  Got my ass handed to me twice and the other time had refuel in Crescent City...

My first time down was in a Tartan 37.  Sunny skies and howling wind.  We were about 100-150 miles away from Skip Allan when he scuttled Wildflower.

https://www.latitude38.com/lectronic/special-edition-skip-allan-scuttles-wildflower/

The seas were...unreal.  When people write about mountains of water, I know what that looks like.

Lee just sold my buddy's Freeport and also sold him his new to him Saga 43.  Nice guy!

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1 hour ago, Ishmael said:

Beginning of June. We went out 100 miles and then came back in to 50

That strategy is flawed IMO. You spend the better part of a day sailing that far offshore, and a similar amount when you decide to close with the coast. You're giving up your weather forecasting window by doing so.

Also that area around OR/CA border ALWAYS seems to have the worst weather as you noted in your blog. I don't mind sailing on the continental shelf - deep enough to avoid the crab pots but close to shore so the seas are reduced.

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5 hours ago, estarzinger said:

idk anything about ships - is there a lot of learning from them you can apply to our small boats (boat stuff, not seamanship) - or are they fundamentally too different from our small boats to have many lessons cross-apply

Too different IME. Even 60+ knots sustained for days is just a nuisance not a threat. OK you might break stuff & lose gear - we had a midwater trawl work loose and get torn off of the deck after 6 days of constant water surge up the trawl ramp. But you're warm & dry inside a wheel house with engines running 24/7 and decent steerage with sufficient crew to get a break. Might get tossed out of your bunk on occasion. We used to just head maybe 5 degrees off of windward to take the waves slightly off of dead on and motor at 2-3 knots. You simply can't do that in a small boat, as you'd know far better than I. Below the ice limit was more tricky because even with 2 radars you couldn't guarantee seeing a bergy bit.

So no, no real lessons WRT small sailing vessels. I have my opinions from knowing what things can get like but I'm nobody who can comment on small sailing boats really. I built mine for a different purpose - poking about the coastal fringes.

FKT

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4 hours ago, toddster said:

ln my observations, a boat with two helm stations is not conducive to a happy marriage...

Depends what kind of marriage it is, I suppose.  An American Protestant work ethic type of marriage, or a laissez-faire European kinda open marriage? (Notice in the pic they’re all staring at the starboard helmswoman, and smiling??!). 
 

Carry on. 

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9 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

 European kinda open marriage? (

It is another stereotype . . but another true one . . . . 

We were rafted to a Frenchman's boat in the Azores - his GF pack up up her stuff and went to the airport . . and the wife arrived the next day - who knew all about the GF and just wanted her stuff absolutely gone before she stepped on board.

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1 hour ago, Zonker said:

That strategy is flawed IMO. You spend the better part of a day sailing that far offshore, and a similar amount when you decide to close with the coast. You're giving up your weather forecasting window by doing so.

Also that area around OR/CA border ALWAYS seems to have the worst weather as you noted in your blog. I don't mind sailing on the continental shelf - deep enough to avoid the crab pots but close to shore so the seas are reduced.

Two things.  Although we’re getting off-topic again (and it’s my fault this time :-) ). Somehow related though.  (No one wants to be in an offshore yacht with undesirable characteristics heading down this coast....)
 

-I thought the typical possible bad areas are bit more south (south of Cape Blanco in Oregon), sort of around Cape Mendocino - inland quasi-stationary low in Calif, and offshore high can create a steep gradient/squash zone right at the coast than can persist for days...blue sky days, 40-50 kts...

-related - so, farther offshore, off the shelf where it’s deeper and waves are more swell/less refraction from the coast, is said to be better (assuming you’re provisioned/set up for that, longer time out, etc.)

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2 minutes ago, estarzinger said:

It is another stereotype . . but another true one . . . . 

We were rafted to a Frenchman's boat in the Azores - his GF pack up up her stuff and went to the airport . . and the wife arrived the next day - who knew all about the GF and just wanted her stuff absolutely gone before she stepped on board.

You’ve probably heard of that famous toast, in a large group setting: “To our wives and girlfriends.  May they never meet!” :-) 

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8 hours ago, Bull City said:

Desirable or Undesirable?

image.png.5edc8f50f595f4edb0c583e079d3073f.png

Saw this in a Defender email. Sorry. Please carry on.

As is so often the case with sailboats, it's the maintenance that'll get you.

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21 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Depends what kind of marriage it is, I suppose.  An American Protestant work ethic type of marriage, or a laissez-faire European kinda open marriage? (Notice in the pic they’re all staring at the starboard helmswoman, and smiling??!). 
 

Carry on. 

Just soze you know... if Wifey has the helm and Hubby introduces a course correction from the other wheel... she isn't gonna be laughing like that.

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18 minutes ago, Corryvreckan said:

As is so often the case with sailboats, it's the maintenance that'll get you.

Doesn't look like there's much of a clothing budget. NTTAWWT.

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On 4/22/2021 at 9:47 PM, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Read 'The Totorore Voyage' for another take on it.

18 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

I heavily insulated my hull and cabin sides but 'cleverly' installed opening bronze ports. I would have to say that no other piece of gear has caused me more cursing during their machining from the castings, and now they get condensation on the inside - and drip RIGHT ONTO MY HEAD in the V berth.

Jud's boat, I'd be building a hard dodger for sure before heading to Chile.

 

Funny enough, Gerry Clark’s book is one that I lost (inexplicably) in a move years ago.  I’d recently gotten it - before Amazon was an Amazonian global sales behemoth— by purchasing it direct from a NZ bird conservancy!  So I never got around to reading it.  He was a nutter, a truly focused and dedicated one - the best kind! :-)  I look forward to getting a copy of it —alas, via Amazon this time— and  reading it.

Re: condensation, Bob Shepton in his high latitude sailing book simply recommends double “glazing” with plastic sheet affixed somehow (can’t recall) over the hatches.  We have occasional issues with that too...haven’t tried glazing...perhaps if living aboard more in winter, when interior moisture is higher.

Yeah, hard dodger...man, you’re really cracking the whip hard!  I can only do 10 projects at once :-)  Definitely have a design well lodged in my head for when I have the time...likely winter after next.  Want to focus on getting the boat dialled for Hawaii and back in the meantime. I’d like to hear/see more about your dodger.

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2 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Yeah, hard dodger...man, you’re really cracking the whip hard!  I can only do 10 projects at once :-)  Definitely have a design well lodged in my head for when I have the time...likely winter after next  Want to focus on getting the boat dialled for Hawaii and back in the meantime. I’d like to hear/see more about your dodger.

Haulout scheduled for 10 May so the plan is to install it then. It's finished except for final painting and sealing to the cabin.

Don't talk to me about the project list. I finished making up the anchor winch control box yesterday. Provision for deck switch, wired remote at the wheel and wireless remote which I hope to be the 'go to' device. Haven't installed anything on the boat yet, also a haulout project unless I get bored before then.

Oh yes the anchor winch required a stainless adaptor plate to get the new winch to fit on the old base and line up the chain pipe with the deck penetration because NFW I was cutting & welding on my deck AGAIN if I could avoid it. And a 15mm HDPE base plate because the standard winch wire run wasn't going to work. And I still have to actually run the wire harness through the boat which is going to be a major PITA when it comes to the V berth area.

I'm already contemplating the 2022 list.

FKT

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12 hours ago, estarzinger said:

double-sided tape is the usual way. Heat gun on the plastic to take out wrinkles.  It is not very elegant, but it does the job.

I've been thinking of 3mm polycarbonate on polycarbonate standoff rings to clear the bronze trim rings, and high power magnets embedded to hold to the cabin side.

Not a real dirty weather solution obviously. Also a PITA to make which is why it hasn't happened. I should probably have set a grid of stainless acorn nuts into the cabin sides around each port opening while building but it seemed like an unnecessary lot of work at the time.

Hindsight.

Not having opening bronze ports would have worked too.

Your plastic & double-sided tape option sounds like a useful thing to try.

FKT

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11 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

I've been thinking of 3mm polycarbonate on polycarbonate standoff rings to clear the bronze trim rings, and high power magnets embedded to hold to the cabin side.

Not a real dirty weather solution obviously. Also a PITA to make which is why it hasn't happened. I should probably have set a grid of stainless acorn nuts into the cabin sides around each port opening while building but it seemed like an unnecessary lot of work at the time.

Hindsight.

Not having opening bronze ports would have worked too.

Your plastic & double-sided tape option sounds like a useful thing to try.

FKT

Some friends of ours did their house every winter, it worked well for them. Big windows, too. It's important to make it as airtight as possible.

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13 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

I3mm polycarbonate

Your plastic & double-sided tape option s

we did the plastic and double sided tape for quite a few years . . . but one refit we refit all the hatches and ports and windows and we then bit the bullet and did the work for 4mm acrylic inner panes (with a small band of foam tape around the edges as a gasket) - looked much nicer but worked about the same. The fixed ones we just screwed into teak trim.  And used composite studs and nuts where we wanted to be able to remove them in (like in the tropics).

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2 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Some friends of ours did their house every winter, it worked well for them. Big windows, too. It's important to make it as airtight as possible.

Climate isn't as extreme here, I don't have any real problems with condensation in the house even though I've got single glazed windows in aluminium frames. There's a lot of thermal mass and as I dislike being cold, I keep the house heated.

Some form of winter/storm windows would save me considerable heat loss so it's something worth considering. Way down the project list though, I have a hell of a lot of firewood.

Harder to manage condensation on the boat although the hull, decks and cabin sides are very well insulated so not a problem. It's the ports and the small strip of steel exposed along the top of the cabin sides that annoy me. As I've said, I have a plan. And a fallback plan. Or 3.

Warmer climate, also no problem. But if you want to go into cool/cold climates, condensation drips will be a highly undesirable feature. Especially if one of the drips is right over your pillow.

FKT

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1 minute ago, estarzinger said:

we did the plastic and double sided tape for quite a few years . . . but one refit we refit all the hatches and ports and windows and we then bit the bullet and did the work for 4mm acrylic inner panes (with a small band of foam tape around the edges as a gasket) - looked much nicer but worked about the same. The fixed ones we just screwed into teak trim.  And used composite studs and nuts where we wanted to be able to remove them in (like in the tropics).

Hmmm - you have me thinking now. I've had it stuck in my head that the covers needed to go on the outside of the cabin. I think because I was considering them as storm shutters originally.

Fitting a cover inside the existing cutouts on the inside could be a lot more do-able. I've never finished the trim around the port openings anyway.

Time to get sketchbook and measuring tape back out to the boat.

FKT

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14 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Some form of winter/storm windows would save me considerable heat loss so it's something worth considering. Way down the project list though, I have a hell of a lot of firewood.

Growing up in Saskatchewan, where the temperature range is -40C to +40C, we only had single-pane windows, so every fall we had to put the storm windows on and take them off again in spring.

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24 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Growing up in Saskatchewan, where the temperature range is -40C to +40C, we only had single-pane windows, so every fall we had to put the storm windows on and take them off again in spring.

If I lived in a place where it was -40C in winter, I'd move.

Fun fact, on winter voyages south it rarely got lower than -30C and usually only -20C thanks to the ocean not getting below -1.8C. You could keep beer chilled very nicely by putting it against the glass on the ports.

FKT

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8 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

If I lived in a place where it was -40C in winter, I'd move.

Fun fact, on winter voyages south it rarely got lower than -30C and usually only -20C thanks to the ocean not getting below -1.8C. You could keep beer chilled very nicely by putting it against the glass on the ports.

FKT

I moved as soon as I could, then got my double idiot badge by going back. I'm cured now.

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5 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

 You could keep beer chilled very nicely by putting it against the glass on the ports.

FKT

Thats one of the good things about deep frying your turkey outside in the snow at Thanksgiving...

That and the taste of the turkey

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