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Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics of Offshore Yachts


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That in no way diminishes the validity of their choices. They are buying the boat for themselves, not for you or me. I happen to prefer a deep fin, spade rudder, tall carbon rig, paradoxically on a wo

You know who to get the best advice from? Delivery skippers. It isn't their boat, they aren't in love with her and blind to her flaws. They have to get the boat from A to B despite the weather or

This has turned into Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics of Offshore Posters.

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3 hours ago, gn4478 said:

Isn't it obvious what the "best" offshore boat is?

No it is not obvious.

Do you think a steel can,  with handholds (and minimal super strong, super heavy, mast and rudder and keel) . . . .  is the perfect offshore vessel?  It would meet all your criteria.

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Desirable: 

- a keel that stays attached; 

- rudder/post that can't flood the boat when it fails;

- an emergency tiller system that works;

- no leaks; 

- ruggedised electronics;

- a dedicated 'wets' area that does not involve a washing line across the main cabin; and 

- a galley that works in big seas. 

Undesirable; 

- Not having the above.   

 

 

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On 4/27/2021 at 4:50 PM, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

It’s both a desirable and undesirable feature of my offshore yacht :-)  I like it for its ability to let light below and provide an easy means to see out when the boat is closed up - but I’ve yet to solve the condensation problem it can create in winter (haven’t tried yet b/c hasn’t been a priority).

KAURI, 35 years ago.

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1 hour ago, shaggybaxter said:

Desirable: 

- a keel that stays attached; 

- rudder/post that can't flood the boat when it fails;

- an emergency tiller system that works;

- no leaks; 

- ruggedised electronics;

- a dedicated 'wets' area that does not involve a washing line across the main cabin; and 

- a galley that works in big seas. 

Undesirable; 

- Not having the above.   

 

 

Shags . . .there are a huge number of things which are 'desirable' in a vacuum (like say a price of free for a pogo would be desirable :) ), but Idk how we work into such a list that there are trade-offs and compromises and priorities.

regarding priorities - I agree all you listed is a desirable, but I personally would have put (just as two random examples of a long list) the ability to sail well upwind into ocean seas, and seabunks usable on all points of sail, rather higher on the list than your wets area.

And with a list approach idk how we deal with the how 'stability' area, which was critical to the original concept (of desirable and undesirable) - how does a cat's massive initial stability, both right side up and upside down get factored?  I know what that generation of the CCA and NYYC thought, but the world has evolved and also we are talking about cruising here

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1 minute ago, estarzinger said:

Shags . . .there are a huge number of things which are 'desirable' in a vacuum (like say a price of free for a pogo would be desirable :) ), but Idk how we work into such a list that there are trade-offs and compromises and priorities.

regarding priorities - I agree all you listed is a desirable, but I personally would have put (just as two random examples of a long list) the ability to sail well upwind into ocean seas, and seabunks usable on all points of sail, rather higher on the list than your wets area.

Happy to be corrected Estar, and I agree, both of these should be at the top of the list.

Lemme just add them quietly in....  

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4 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

Happy to be corrected Estar, and I agree, both of these should be at the top of the list.

Lemme just add them quietly in....  

I am curious - for 'serious' offshore work, like a shoulder season N atlantic crossing - how do you feel about pogo stability?  It is obviously just fine for even heavy duty coastal (several nights) sailing . . . . 

 

edit: I'm also curious - running in big breaking waves - keel down or up?

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25 minutes ago, estarzinger said:

I am curious - for 'serious' offshore work, like a shoulder season N atlantic crossing - how do you feel about pogo stability?  It is obviously just fine for even heavy duty coastal (several nights) sailing . . . . 

 

edit: I'm also curious - running in big breaking waves - keel down or up?

I prefer to keep the keel down in any kind of weather.

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Damn, I love this thread.  
 

But what was the OP’s intention?  To inflame passions and incite argument?  To draw out competing schools of thought to hash out a complex skein of ideas, technologies, opinions, fads and whatnot?  To while away his idle hours in between bouts of creative time at work?  How dare he suck us into this ultimately unanswerable vortex of marine chaos :-)

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5 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

I prefer to keep the keel down in any kind of weather.

 

I was wondering about the trade-off - keel up would (I think) be more directionally stable running in big waves, while keep down would provide greater righting moment & AVS. 

Most of the French high latitude cruisers I know with flat bottom boats seemed to run with keep up, but those are different than the pogo.

  On Silk we ran with keel up, but again was different . . .  it was not ballasted so did not add much to righting moment, and it was not very 'tight' so when running it had a tendency to bang back and forth a bit.

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4 minutes ago, estarzinger said:

 

I was wondering about the trade-off - keel up would (I think) be more directionally stable running in big waves, while keep down would provide greater righting moment & AVS. 

Most of the French high latitude cruisers I know with flat bottom boats seemed to run with keep up, but those are different than the pogo.

  On Silk we ran with keel up, but again was different . . .  it was not ballasted so did not add much to righting moment, and it was not very 'tight' so when running it had a tendency to bang back and forth a bit.

I was actually taking the mickey, since I have a fixed (hopefully) keel. Keel up is never a good look in most cases.

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33 minutes ago, estarzinger said:

 

I was wondering about the trade-off - keel up would (I think) be more directionally stable running in big waves, while keep down would provide greater righting moment & AVS. 

Most of the French high latitude cruisers I know with flat bottom boats seemed to run with keep up, but those are different than the pogo.

  On Silk we ran with keel up, but again was different . . .  it was not ballasted so did not add much to righting moment, and it was not very 'tight' so when running it had a tendency to bang back and forth a bit.

Those French centerboarders technically don't have the worlds best AVS, while I've read they get knocked over occasionally, and sometimes stay there longer than what might be comfortable, they rarely go over. They weeble-wobble, but they don't go down..

According to the curves Zonker with the board up you go from 1250 to 1000 and the negative area of the curve gets much bigger....

Given the struggle to keep things dry and salt free-ish, I do have sympathies with the desire for a wets area. I'm about to give up some aft cabin space for that. 

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1 hour ago, estarzinger said:

I am curious - for 'serious' offshore work, like a shoulder season N atlantic crossing - how do you feel about pogo stability?  It is obviously just fine for even heavy duty coastal (several nights) sailing . . . . 

 

I'm also curious - running in big breaking waves - keel down or up?

I haven't done an ocean crossing on her so the following is only based on offshore work. I never felt nor worried about  issues with stability, even when we stupidly lifted the keel on a broad reach under full kite in 20+ knots. That was a good test to do in hindsight, the boat was still driveable and didn't round up or down, just felt sluggish and more tippy, (heel was about 40 degrees). I found out post that event it still rates near class B under ISO even when the keel is up, so that made me feel more comfortable. 

Unsure how to express it clinically, but I've always felt my confidence increase the more the wind and sea state increases. Kinda like some cars, where it feels more and more planted as everything goes north. 30 knots and 3-5 mtrs seas even beating to windward slightly cracked is fun, as long as you don't try and hold 35TWA.

I would be tempted to go back to the original tiller for blue water mode rather than the wheels for one big reason, as the helm position is outboard and rearward so the inherent stiffness is quite violent when beating in really big seas. Sitting down is fine, but I have never got the knack for sitting while helming, so I notice it more as I'm always standing.   

Yes you can sail with the keel up and while it is fun I've always found the averages to be slower. With the keel up the ballast (approx 2000kgs) is now 3 mtrs behind the centre of the boat so the transom gets glued as the wind lightens up and you lose the rock solid feel the draft gives you. Fun for an ideal downwind leg, but in variable conditions I found it is not worth the penalty to do all the time.

Cheers! 

SB

Edit: In the rare times when you are in really foul conditions, I found it is the slamming as you fall of the wave peak that is the worst part, both for the crew and the boat. In that regard I can attest it slams far less than some of the half/tonners I've sailed on, it's pretty well rounded forrard of the keel. 

      

 

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1 minute ago, estarzinger said:

^^interesting. thanks.  

Do you carry a drogue?

I guess it is a hard thing to assess because we are all so rarely in big breaking wave conditions. 

Yes, I bought a Jordan series drogue but it never saw the light of day aside from testing retrieval in calm conditions. I though it was mandatory as I didn't think I could heave to, that was another fallacy. The worse conditions we saw was 40's and maybe 3-5mtrs seas max, in that the boat still had impeccable manners.  

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5 hours ago, shaggybaxter said:

I haven't done an ocean crossing on her so the following is only based on offshore work. I never felt nor worried about  issues with stability, even when we stupidly lifted the keel on a broad reach under full kite in 20+ knots. That was a good test to do in hindsight, the boat was still driveable and didn't round up or down, just felt sluggish and more tippy, (heel was about 40 degrees). I found out post that event it still rates near class B under ISO even when the keel is up, so that made me feel more comfortable. 

Unsure how to express it clinically, but I've always felt my confidence increase the more the wind and sea state increases. Kinda like some cars, where it feels more and more planted as everything goes north. 30 knots and 3-5 mtrs seas even beating to windward slightly cracked is fun, as long as you don't try and hold 35TWA.

I would be tempted to go back to the original tiller for blue water mode rather than the wheels for one big reason, as the helm position is outboard and rearward so the inherent stiffness is quite violent when beating in really big seas. Sitting down is fine, but I have never got the knack for sitting while helming, so I notice it more as I'm always standing.   

Yes you can sail with the keel up and while it is fun I've always found the averages to be slower. With the keel up the ballast (approx 2000kgs) is now 3 mtrs behind the centre of the boat so the transom gets glued as the wind lightens up and you lose the rock solid feel the draft gives you. Fun for an ideal downwind leg, but in variable conditions I found it is not worth the penalty to do all the time.

Cheers! 

SB

Edit: In the rare times when you are in really foul conditions, I found it is the slamming as you fall of the wave peak that is the worst part, both for the crew and the boat. In that regard I can attest it slams far less than some of the half/tonners I've sailed on, it's pretty well rounded forrard of the keel. 

      

 

Interesting points. Have you sold the Pogo and bought another boat yet?

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10 hours ago, shaggybaxter said:

Yes, I bought a Jordan series drogue but it never saw the light of day aside from testing retrieval in calm conditions. I though it was mandatory as I didn't think I could heave to, that was another fallacy. The worse conditions we saw was 40's and maybe 3-5mtrs seas max, in that the boat still had impeccable manners.  

Shaggy - what do you mean “I thought it mandatory”?  Was this for a race? (Or do you just mean “a really damn good idea to have on board”.  Where were you sailing, out of curiosity?

I’ll acquire a drogue shortly.

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6 hours ago, Misbehavin' said:

Interesting points. Have you sold the Pogo and bought another boat yet?

H Misbehavin,

Yep, she's sold. I'm playing with some past life motorsports stuff, I'll give it a few years then maybe see what happens.

1 hour ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Shaggy - what do you mean “I thought it mandatory”?  Was this for a race? (Or do you just mean “a really damn good idea to have on board”.  Where were you sailing, out of curiosity?

I’ll acquire a drogue shortly.

Hi J/V,

Sorry, I meant mandatory ie: damn good idea.  Before we took collection I had some expert muppet convince me that a Class 40 hull will heave to like a bag of shit, and the only survival mode for the boat is to put everything on the stern quarter and run with it.

I personally think slow is a much better survival mode than fast, so a drogue made a lot of sense. But after getting the boat we found it it hove to just fine, so that which gave me another survival mode and diluted the appeal of the drogue. I got it for some Sth Pacific legs we were planning on but never got to. I've never taken it for the coastal stuff, wouldn't be much fun jagging a coral bomby with one in a full gale :)

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4 hours ago, shaggybaxter said:

H Misbehavin,

Yep, she's sold. I'm playing with some past life motorsports stuff, I'll give it a few years then maybe see what happens.

Hi J/V,

Sorry, I meant mandatory ie: damn good idea.  Before we took collection I had some expert muppet convince me that a Class 40 hull will heave to like a bag of shit, and the only survival mode for the boat is to put everything on the stern quarter and run with it.

I personally think slow is a much better survival mode than fast, so a drogue made a lot of sense. But after getting the boat we found it it hove to just fine, so that which gave me another survival mode and diluted the appeal of the drogue. I got it for some Sth Pacific legs we were planning on but never got to. I've never taken it for the coastal stuff, wouldn't be much fun jagging a coral bomby with one in a full gale :)

Wow!  Sold the Pogo already!  (I s'pose I can't talk much as I sold my Mainecat within 3 years of purchase...there were reasons though...not due to the boat)

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5 hours ago, shaggybaxter said:

H Misbehavin,

Yep, she's sold. I'm playing with some past life motorsports stuff, I'll give it a few years then maybe see what happens.

 

Ah well. I live in a town where motorsports can be quite big. The Chaparral race cars were built here. My various friends have made the exotic car mistake, light airplane mistake, jet airplane mistake, cattle ranch mistake, race horse mistake, houses around the world mistake, 5th or 6th wife mistake, this after nearly all of us made the oil well mistake. I decided to take one for the team and make the sailboat mistake so none of my friends would feel obligated.

If you ever happen to find yourself in New England in the summer, buzz me up, I'd love to give you a ride on my 2nd favorite mistake.B)

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1 hour ago, Cruisin Loser said:

The Chaparral race cars were built here.

That made Midland a cool place in perpetuity.

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4 hours ago, Veeger said:

Wow!  Sold the Pogo already!  (I s'pose I can't talk much as I sold my Mainecat within 3 years of purchase...there were reasons though...not due to the boat)

G'day Veeger,

Yep, same, nothing against the boat, I feel thankful for the 5 years I did get. I was pretty chuffed that the only defect at the time of sale was the boom bag was a bit tattered and the cabin stickers were faded, everything else was working like a charm.  

Thinking back now, all those sleepless nights prior to delivery, worrying about ordering a boat from half way round the world with no local support, turned out to be all unfounded. The boat did everything it said on the tin and the post sale support was really good. I'll be looking em up again in a few years for sure.      

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3 hours ago, Cruisin Loser said:

Ah well. I live in a town where motorsports can be quite big. The Chaparral race cars were built here. My various friends have made the exotic car mistake, light airplane mistake, jet airplane mistake, cattle ranch mistake, race horse mistake, houses around the world mistake, 5th or 6th wife mistake, this after nearly all of us made the oil well mistake. I decided to take one for the team and make the sailboat mistake so none of my friends would feel obligated.

If you ever happen to find yourself in New England in the summer, buzz me up, I'd love to give you a ride on my 2nd favorite mistake.B)

:lol:

Thanks mate, I will make sure I take you up on that, I would love to go for a ride on your gorgeous girl one day (boat that is), cheers! 

It surprised me how much cheaper motorsports have become. a complete injected/blown big block costs less than the price of a new sail wardrobe :blink:. The good thing is the data and telemetry is remarkably the same so I'm knee deep in spreadsheets and numbers which I enjoy immensely, no difference to a race or passage prep. It does feel weird not shopping for shiny bits though. I still wander through chandleries staring at shiny bits.....  

 

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10 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

:lol:

Thanks mate, I will make sure I take you up on that, I would love to go for a ride on your gorgeous girl one day (boat that is), cheers! 

It surprised me how much cheaper motorsports have become. a complete injected/blown big block costs less than the price of a new sail wardrobe :blink:. The good thing is the data and telemetry is remarkably the same so I'm knee deep in spreadsheets and numbers which I enjoy immensely, no difference to a race or passage prep. It does feel weird not shopping for shiny bits though. I still wander through chandleries staring at shiny bits.....  

 

Now you've a perfect excuse for buying machine tools. Once you have a lathe or 2, a manual mill, a VMC and some accessories, you'll never ever lack for new bling to buy for the shop.

Trust me. I'm up to 3 lathes, 4 milling machines, 2 horizontal boring machines and a cast of thousands in smaller machine tools (surface grinder, cylindrical grinder, tool & cutter grinder, drill presses etc etc).

Occasionally I make bits for boats...

FKT

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19 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Now you've a perfect excuse for buying machine tools. Once you have a lathe or 2, a manual mill, a VMC and some accessories, you'll never ever lack for new bling to buy for the shop.

Trust me. I'm up to 3 lathes, 4 milling machines, 2 horizontal boring machines and a cast of thousands in smaller machine tools (surface grinder, cylindrical grinder, tool & cutter grinder, drill presses etc etc).

Occasionally I make bits for boats...

FKT

Hiya FKT, 

That indeed is a problem. My new favourite catalogue.....

MachineryWarehouse.jpg.7b9439f16dc9a992955cd9c493f044f3.jpg

We've just finished restoring an old 1940-50's pommy lathe and milling machine that was gifted from a farm.  It came with every head and accessory known to man , so we have been cleaning and sandblasting and restoring everything back to original (the lathe at least, mill is still a work in progress) . I still get all wet just looking at the engineering that goes into building a lathe or a milling machine. 

That god I don't have a CnC machine, I'd be outa control. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Now you've a perfect excuse for buying machine tools. Once you have a lathe or 2, a manual mill, a VMC and some accessories, you'll never ever lack for new bling to buy for the shop.

Trust me. I'm up to 3 lathes, 4 milling machines, 2 horizontal boring machines and a cast of thousands in smaller machine tools (surface grinder, cylindrical grinder, tool & cutter grinder, drill presses etc etc).

Occasionally I make bits for boats...

FKT

Awesome! So, can we can all come and do a re-fit if sail there? 

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2 hours ago, Elegua said:

Awesome! So, can we can all come and do a re-fit if sail there? 

You wouldn't be the first...

FKT

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9 minutes ago, Blue Crab said:

FKT even has guest moorings available.

Usually one or 2 vacant, yeah. Hauling my boat out in another week or so to do some upgrades. Lot of stuff on the bench should get installed at that point and I can start thinking about the next lot. More shed space available too. And I'm building another small shed just because I can and I'm bored...

FKT

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9 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

You wouldn't be the first...

FKT

Cool! We're coming from the East coast of the US, so it might take us a while....

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1 hour ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Straight shot for us, direct SW, from the west coast of Canada :-) :-) 

True...but I'm figuring for some detours on the way. 

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8 hours ago, Elegua said:

Cool! We're coming from the East coast of the US, so it might take us a while....

Shouldn’t take that long, it’s downhill all the way...

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7 minutes ago, olaf hart said:

Shouldn’t take that long, it’s downhill all the way...

even Rimas made it most of the way.  For the offer of a mooring and a machine shop on god's island - cast off now!

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Yeah, no kidding. I'm just figuring out how to increase the negative stability of my boat...being that you have to sail upside-down and all....is that a service they provide in Fiji? 

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14 minutes ago, Elegua said:

Yeah, no kidding. I'm just figuring out how to increase the negative stability of my boat...being that you have to sail upside-down and all....is that a service they provide in Fiji? 

you have to have a proper equator crossing ceremony . .  .but then oden grants you the ability.

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15 minutes ago, Elegua said:

Yeah, no kidding. I'm just figuring out how to increase the negative stability of my boat...being that you have to sail upside-down and all....is that a service they provide in Fiji? 

Are we getting into keel up/keel down discussions again?

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2 hours ago, Elegua said:

Yeah, no kidding. I'm just figuring out how to increase the negative stability of my boat...being that you have to sail upside-down and all....is that a service they provide in Fiji? 

Yep, just don't forget those pesky plotter colours stay the same....

952724694_download(1).jpg.94433197e6a2db341f5e55c82ddac7fd.jpg

 

  

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2 hours ago, estarzinger said:

you have to have a proper equator crossing ceremony . .  .but then oden grants you the ability.

I see. So it's like unlocking an achievement. Level up and prepare for the Southern Ocean Big Boss Battle. 

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6 minutes ago, Elegua said:

I see. So it's like unlocking an achievement. Level up and prepare for the Southern Ocean Big Boss Battle. 

lol - yes exactly - very topical for me - I just this week killed the last mythic boss and got "Cutting Edge" achievement in latest wow mythic raid tier. It is a bit harder offshore to reset the boss when you screw up, and (like 'ironman achievement') you only get one death.

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1 hour ago, estarzinger said:

lol - yes exactly - very topical for me - I just this week killed the last mythic boss and got "Cutting Edge" achievement in latest wow mythic raid tier. It is a bit harder offshore to reset the boss when you screw up, and (like 'ironman achievement') you only get one death.

Yes. Not to be flip, no one wants to die, but that's what gives it meaning. 

When I was young, I spent time sailing on a square rigger offshore and living in rugged places, days walk away from any, "help" kind of places; where people, nature, or my own poor judgment could mean my demise.  I've not forgotten that life.  Having served my time as a wage slave, I'd like to go back to it.  I've earned my Vanaprastha. :D

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4 hours ago, Elegua said:

Yes. Not to be flip, no one wants to die, but that's what gives it meaning. 

When I was young, I spent time sailing on a square rigger offshore and living in rugged places, days walk away from any, "help" kind of places; where people, nature, or my own poor judgment could mean my demise.  I've not forgotten that life.  Having served my time as a wage slave, I'd like to go back to it.  I've earned my Vanaprastha. :D

I wouldn't - did the 'back to the land' thing when I was a lot younger. These days I want to live moderately close to half decent medical & dental care. And a library.

OTOH living in cities or the burbs is like being stuck in purgatory, hence my current status - a few acres on the waterfront, small house, big workshop, with my boat out the front.

FKT

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43 minutes ago, olaf hart said:

21DE898B-1F6C-471A-8D31-D4A6E9ECE943.jpeg

Exactly.

Even if you 'win' all that does is to show that you can ride (be) the top rat.

FKT

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6 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

I wouldn't - did the 'back to the land' thing when I was a lot younger. These days I want to live moderately close to half decent medical & dental care. And a library.

OTOH living in cities or the burbs is like being stuck in purgatory, hence my current status - a few acres on the waterfront, small house, big workshop, with my boat out the front.

FKT

I believe those days are gone. You have to go really far off piste these days as compared to 30 years ago to achieve the same level of remoteness.   No more people asking you to use your binoculars to look in their stomach because it hurts. No more crossing two rivers and a several days hike to get to a telex or radio. (All good things for the inhabitants) I’ve had a normal career in less normal places. Until very recently I’ve never lived in something like a US suburb.  Moving there felt like moving to a foreign country.  It was interesting to do for a short period.  I’d like to do the same as you, but I’m not sure where and I still have some long distance sailing I want to get in.  

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14 hours ago, estarzinger said:

you have to have a proper equator crossing ceremony . .  .but then oden grants you the ability.

That would be Neptune, in my book. He got a bit of Mt. Gay from our boat, just N of the Galapagos.

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17 hours ago, shaggybaxter said:

Yep, just don't forget those pesky plotter colours stay the same....

952724694_download(1).jpg.94433197e6a2db341f5e55c82ddac7fd.jpg

 

Another magenta line casualty?

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11 hours ago, Elegua said:

I believe those days are gone. You have to go really far off piste these days as compared to 30 years ago to achieve the same level of remoteness.   No more people asking you to use your binoculars to look in their stomach because it hurts. No more crossing two rivers and a several days hike to get to a telex or radio. (All good things for the inhabitants) I’ve had a normal career in less normal places. Until very recently I’ve never lived in something like a US suburb.  Moving there felt like moving to a foreign country.  It was interesting to do for a short period.  I’d like to do the same as you, but I’m not sure where and I still have some long distance sailing I want to get in.  

I thought I wanted to do some long distance sailing until a few years ago then decided that actually I probably didn't. There's nothing about being out in the deep blue that I actually miss, been there lots already. I may change my mind again, never say never.

FKT

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1 hour ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

I thought I wanted to do some long distance sailing until a few years ago then decided that actually I probably didn't. There's nothing about being out in the deep blue that I actually miss, been there lots already. I may change my mind again, never say never.

FKT

Fair enough. One of few blessings of getting older is knowing what you want better and caring less about what others think of it.   

For me, I really enjoy the solitude of being offshore, the sense of having traveled before I arrive somewhere.  Even going back to when I was a kid sailing with my parents - we didn't have an autopilot. 

Coastal cruising is also great, and what I do most these days. It is a different pleasure. 

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13 hours ago, accnick said:

That would be Neptune, in my book. He got a bit of Mt. Gay from our boat, just N of the Galapagos.

Is that all tied to that ceremony when the head starts to flush clockwise thing? Just asking for a friend.

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9 minutes ago, kinardly said:

Is that all tied to that ceremony when the head starts to flush clockwise thing? Just asking for a friend.

I was too busy hand-sewing a torn genoa together at the time to pay the much attention to the water in the head.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 4/28/2021 at 4:24 PM, estarzinger said:

No it is not obvious.

Do you think a steel can,  with handholds (and minimal super strong, super heavy, mast and rudder and keel) . . . .  is the perfect offshore vessel?  It would meet all your criteria.

I guess you did not get my humor. Obviously, to anyone that knows anything there is no right answer.....

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1 hour ago, gn4478 said:

I guess you did not get my humor. Obviously, to anyone that knows anything there is no right answer.....

Yes there is.

 

 

42

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On 4/20/2021 at 2:58 PM, TwoLegged said:

 

A downwind boat basically wants a big, deep foil-sectioned rudder well aft, and no appendages forward of that.  Kinda like an arrow or a rocket: stuff at the back to control direction.  And it wants to be light enough to accelerate well, with low drag, and with drive from sails well fwd.

One of the best approaches to those goals is the Boreal centreboarders.  They don't have a huge rudder, but they do have  a daggerboard on each quarter, so with the centreboard raised they are almost unbroachable.

 

 

 

 

Reminds me a little bit of Viktor's solution. 

Unique is just a word

https://www.seahorsemagazine.com/95-content/april-2016/349-unique-is-just-a-word

http://oceanschool.ru/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Viktor-the-Russian.pdf?fbclid=IwAR3pOQ6qCqnhXpymkHW-SiQQMPN3XSSxYm21TDBGkviEZ0SDdXzVMnXeemo

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15 minutes ago, Blue Crab said:

Gotta luv a poster telling Starzinger he doesn't know anything. 

I tell ya, a guy circumnavigates the globe twice doublehanded and suddenly they think they know it all! ;)

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Just now, Ajax said:
17 minutes ago, Blue Crab said:

Gotta luv a poster telling Starzinger he doesn't know anything. 

I tell ya, a guy circumnavigates the globe twice doublehanded and suddenly they think they know it all! ;)

Not to mention their misguided faith in the evil and mysterious diesel auxiliary and its perpetually contaminated fuel lurking below the floorboards. 

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12 minutes ago, Ajax said:

I tell ya, a guy circumnavigates the globe twice doublehanded and suddenly they think they know it all! ;)

Well, he singlehanded to Iceland, so he only learned half as much from that experience  as he could’ve had he done  that trip doublehanded, with his SO. :-) :-)

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^^ there is actually a 'serious' note related to this . .  .  . . . back in the '50's and '60's it was a recognized problem among the remaining sailing fleet that the old 'cape horn captains' were retiring and their new replacements just had nowhere near their depth of experience or knowledge.  And that has continued, it is harsh to say it but even todays very best sailors are really just casual amateur compared to those old cape horn guys who could do lunar calculations on the back of a napkin and build a new offshore capable cutter from scratch from live trees if they needed to and so much more.

You look at some of the navigation mistakes made by the pros in the Volvo race (and the clipper race) and the lack of depth is just very apparent even in the top ranks.

And when those top guys are like that, we all around here just have to remind ourselves constantly (sergeant Shultz German accent mode) "I dont know nothing'.

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22 minutes ago, estarzinger said:

^^ there is actually a 'serious' note related to this . .  .  . . . back in the '50's and '60's it was a recognized problem among the remaining sailing fleet that the old 'cape horn captains' were retiring and their new replacements just had nowhere near their depth of experience or knowledge.  And that has continued, it is harsh to say it but even todays very best sailors are really just casual amateur compared to those old cape horn guys who could do lunar calculations on the back of a napkin and build a new offshore capable cutter from scratch from live trees if they needed to and so much more.

You look at some of the navigation mistakes made by the pros in the Volvo race (and the clipper race) and the lack of depth is just very apparent even in the top ranks.

And when those top guys are like that, we all around here just have to remind ourselves constantly (sergeant Shultz German accent mode) "I dont know nothing'.

Reminds me of a couple of books I read last year from the 30's and 40's.  Sounds like qualified Captains were already getting scarce.

Tango Around the Horn - a crew sails "America's Last Great Sailing Ship" with a cargo of lumber to Africa during WWII.  A large part of it was verbatim excerpts from the diaries of two crew members.  Remarkable the number of times the captain discovered a navigation error and they were actually hundreds of miles from where they thought. e.g. all hands on deck looking for islands in the fog that were no where near.  

Sterling Hayden's Wanderer.  Only a small part of the book, but apparently by the 30's they were hiring teenagers and twenty-somethings to deliver old ships.  Though reading between the lines it sounds like those were more like suicide missions than real commercial ventures.  

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2 hours ago, estarzinger said:

 

You look at some of the navigation mistakes made by the pros in the Volvo race (and the clipper race) and the lack of depth is just very apparent even in the top ranks.

 

I don't know any of these people or their backgrounds. I'm sure they could get on my boat and sail it way faster/better than I can. That said, it wouldn't surprise me in the least that people who came up as pure racing sailors would not necessarily be great navigators. I don't know what kind of mistakes you're pointing to?

I did learn to navigate with a clock and a compass, and sailed tens of thousands of miles including two Atlantic crossings before I ever sailed with Decca, or Loran, or any satellite navigation. So the old skills aren't completely gone! Though it's true most cruisers I meet would be utterly lost without their GPS chartplotters......literally would not know where to begin.

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3 hours ago, toddster said:

Reminds me of a couple of books I read last year from the 30's and 40's.  Sounds like qualified Captains were already getting scarce.

Tango Around the Horn - a crew sails "America's Last Great Sailing Ship" with a cargo of lumber to Africa during WWII.  A large part of it was verbatim excerpts from the diaries of two crew members.  Remarkable the number of times the captain discovered a navigation error and they were actually hundreds of miles from where they thought. e.g. all hands on deck looking for islands in the fog that were no where near.  

Sterling Hayden's Wanderer.  Only a small part of the book, but apparently by the 30's they were hiring teenagers and twenty-somethings to deliver old ships.  Though reading between the lines it sounds like those were more like suicide missions than real commercial ventures.  

Read Eric Newby's 'The Last Great Grain Race'.

I've a few others from that era as well.

Yeah those guys had vast experience by the time they got to be captain.

FKT

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12 hours ago, stief said:

Old salts never had vapour trails to follow for backup               ;) 

chemtrails

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13 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Read Eric Newby's 'The Last Great Grain Race'.

I've a few others from that era as well.

Yeah those guys had vast experience by the time they got to be captain.

FKT

Shucks, Lightoller got shipwrecked 3 times before he even made 2nd Officer

All Newby's books are worth reading IMHO

FB- Doug

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19 hours ago, estarzinger said:

it is harsh to say it but even todays very best sailors are really just casual amateur compared to those old cape horn guys who could do lunar calculations on the back of a napkin and build a new offshore capable cutter from scratch from live trees if they needed to and so much more.

Last “great” one I can think of (I’m sure there are others) was Yves Parlier - that fantastic story, sort of the modern day equivalent to the lunar calcs on the back of a napkin ability.  (More akin, actually, to the latter “example” you gave - but I’ve a feeling Yves could figure out the lunars, if pressed :-) )There are probably other version of his story that relate the very innovative mast repair he did in more detail, but this is a good one.

https://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2015/12/15/47722/

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Best lines from the article: 

I suppose I was the perfect candidate for this operation, because I started out with an engineering degree specialising in composite materials,” Parlier says with a grin. He borrowed five 25W bulbs from his navigation lights, slipped an electric wire inside the stump of the mast and made a “furnace” by layering a fleece jacket, survival blanket and sleeping bag.”

He thus succeeded in extending his mast by six metres, a job that usually requires a crane. “I managed to bring the temperature up to 60C, enough to polymerise the bonding agents required for the repairs,” he adds, as if this was child’s play.”

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21 hours ago, CapDave said:

pure racing sailors would not necessarily be great navigators.

I agree - except I think there are some very good "tactical/strategic" navigators who are good at placing a boat to best advantage in the middle of the ocean to take advantage of weather systems and how to make the boat go fast.

It's the stuff around the edges they tend to ignore unless really close to land (i.e. Volvo through the Strait of Malacaa, Bass Strait..

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3 hours ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

I suppose I was the perfect candidate for this operation, because I started out with an engineering degree specialising in composite materials,” Parlier says with a grin. He borrowed five 25W bulbs from his navigation lights, slipped an electric wire inside the stump of the mast and made a “furnace” by layering a fleece jacket, survival blanket and sleeping bag.”

Day 1 of our first offshore passage. We hand been hand steering all day because it was so new and exciting. I was lowering our Navik wind vane paddle into the water. Broke off the little gudgeon  for the paddle's trim tab.

Removed the paddle from the water, quickly made the appropriate fiberglass repair. Stuck a meat thermometer against the repair and wrapped it in several layers of aluminum foil. Turned on the stove and slowly baked it 6" above the burner for 30 minutes, rotating it constantly. Raised it up and down to keep the temperature stabilized. It cured nicely.

Put it back in the water as sun was setting. The repair held until we sold the boat. Remember kids - when working with resins heat can be your friend (or enemy)

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Always carry a meat thermometer?!? :-). (That is quite possibly the very last thing I’d think to pack onboard...although I suppose that, cooking meat sourced from a developing country market, having a meat thermometer to ensure something is properly cooked might possibly be a good idea...)

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3 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Always carry a meat thermometer?!? :-). (That is quite possibly the very last thing I’d think to pack onboard...although I suppose that, cooking meat sourced from a developing country market, having a meat thermometer to ensure something is properly cooked might possibly be a good idea...)

We have one of these on board as well as at home:

3NZT2_AS01?$zmmain$

It's useful for all sorts of things besides making sure the chicken is done. Waterproof, too.

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1 minute ago, Ishmael said:

We have one of these on board as well as at home:

3NZT2_AS01?$zmmain$

It's useful for all sorts of things besides making sure the chicken is done. Waterproof, too.

“All sorts of things”???

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