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Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics of Offshore Yachts


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9 hours ago, olaf hart said:

I recall seeing a paper recently that described the conditions that lead to that sort of rogue wave, it suggested cross seas at 120 degrees was the likely cause.

cross waves and/or current (oh yea, and/or odd bottom contour - even in reasonably deep water) are the typical situation . . . but (going a bit far afield) there is also some quantum mechanics theory suggesting that even without those factors individual waves can steal wave energy from the surrounding wave field and become 'rogue size' (eg more than twice significant height).

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That in no way diminishes the validity of their choices. They are buying the boat for themselves, not for you or me. I happen to prefer a deep fin, spade rudder, tall carbon rig, paradoxically on a wo

This has turned into Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics of Offshore Posters.

You know who to get the best advice from? Delivery skippers. It isn't their boat, they aren't in love with her and blind to her flaws. They have to get the boat from A to B despite the weather or

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8 hours ago, MFH125 said:

Hey @DDW, on your boat, are there retaining rings or similar mechanical devices to keep the wing masts from sliding off their bearings should the boat be fully inverted?

Yes. The mainmast is retained by the lower bearing which has a retaining collar. The mizzen does not rotate but has features to retain it which I have never actually hooked up. It sits in two applications of Spartite (heel and parteners) and is typically pretty stuck when I try to pull it - one time we lifted the back of the boat off the stands and that mast only weighs 125 lbs. Both are retained secondarily by the halyards, reefing lines, and sheets which turn on the deck to run to the cockpit. 

2 hours ago, estarzinger said:

yea, sure - I was just trying to understand what the drawbacks were and thought that question might reveal them.  People have certainly tried unstayed rigs - freedom and others - and then there was the aero rig which got big PR with quite a number of new highish profile boats built, but then they all seem to fizzle out with little enthusiasm. I dont know anything about it, never sailed one, have no opinion.  It seems like a great idea, and I'm sure your boat sails very well.  But given the history, I guess there must be some significant practical downsides somewhere.

Large unstayed rigs (in modern form) are in a very early state of development compared to a sloop which is quite mature. Nonsuch sold over 1000 boats, so you could call that a success - not many series production lines are more successful - and they have held their value better than most. Freedom sold a lot of boats too, but they churned the design a lot making the fleet pretty disparate in capability and performance - some sail OK, others not so much. Many of those designed by big names as their very first effort into a cat type rig, without much of an understanding of it. Wylie is still dabbling in the space, there is a new 60' daysailer being built with a una rig.  

Aerorig is an interesting one, the rigs they built were exceedingly heavy as they did not understand carbon engineering/construction. I know of one example, a 60' monohull, where the Aerorig supplied spar weighed 3000 lbs, replaced by a Composite Engineering version at under 1000. 

As in anything in boat design, the unstayed rig forces compromises, the main one being a jib is inefficient. The cascade of decisions starting there leads to a non traditional looking rig, and anything non traditional is a hard sell in yachting. In small truly open development classes, jibs have been gone for 50 years. Larger boat racing rules explicitly or practically require a sloop rig, cruising boats follow racing trends, I think that is the short answer. 

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3 hours ago, estarzinger said:

cross waves and/or current (oh yea, and/or odd bottom contour - even in reasonably deep water) are the typical situation . . . but (going a bit far afield) there is also some quantum mechanics theory suggesting that even without those factors individual waves can steal wave energy from the surrounding wave field and become 'rogue size' (eg more than twice significant height).

Transients are an inescapable feature of wave train interference. They can be caused by two trains of comparable frequency intersecting at angles, or by parallel trains of differing frequency. The transient can be a one-off event at a single location -- like right under your boat -- or it can 'travel' as the constructive interference pattern is reproduced thru the matrix.

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23 hours ago, DDW said:

But it isn't rudder angle that steers a boat, it is rudder lift. And the rudder lift of the high AR rudder is higher. From experience steering both types downwind in a seaway, I can assure you that the more efficient, high AR rudder makes control easier on both helmsman and autopilot. It has more lift, a steeper lift slope, and lower hinge moments, all of which are beneficial. To generate the same steering forces, the lower AR rudder will require much greater movement with higher forces, and ultimately cannot generate as much. 

As a single example, when I rebuilt my rudder, it went from AR 1.82 to AR 2.47, and the area went down from 12.8 to 10.8 sq ft. Everything about the steering improved, even with a 16% reduction in area. 

 

But what about this:

 

On 5/22/2021 at 10:33 AM, MikeJohns said:

.........................But if we consider Robust control in rough seas, then a lower AR rudder is going to be better in a seaway at preventing for example a wave  induced broach.  The significantly higher inflow stall angle is the factor...........

 

Forget lift slope and force for given area for the moment. I think that's getting sidetracked.

It’s not the maximum lift that’s important its retaining enough steering moment to keep the boat reliably on course.

Consider conditions where it's prudent to put the waves on the quarter and run when running slower than waves that are breaking.

Wave impact from astern and especially taken at any angle on the quarter result in the boat traveling at an angle relative to its orientation ( moving sideways to some extent.)

What happens when the rudder Inflow changes suddenly from say 6 degrees to 30 degrees in seconds without moving the helm ?

 As soon as the angle  between  heading and actual motion exceeds say 18 degrees for the AR 6 rudder, then it’s already stalled turning the rudder further doesn't help. But the boat requires effective rudder to prevent broaching and keep it on course down-wave while it gets up to surfing speed.

The wave is acting very quickly to slew the boat even further around, the rudder has no chance of reattaching flow and loses effectiveness.  The boat quickly assumes a position beam onto the breaker.

Lower AR rudders have a much larger inflow angle where they remain able to give effective directional control and  also have better stall characteristics. So even if they end up in the stalled condition they can still provide enough steering moment to retain control while being accelerated and then surfed by a breaker traveling faster than the boat.

It's not about the max force or the lift slope, just the stall angle and the stall characteristics of the foil in this case.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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32 minutes ago, MikeJohns said:

But what about this:

What happens when the rudder Inflow changes suddenly from say 6 degrees to 30 degrees in seconds without moving the helm ?

While I get your point, you'll have to go out and get some data on how often this happens. I haven't seen it happen, but I haven't been in all that many days of large breaking waves either. Yeah the wave pushes the stern, but it isn't instant. At 30 degrees even a low AR rudder will be stalled (the keel as well), the difference in lift between them will be small, and the difference in resultant force (lift vector plus drag vector) very small. At 30 deg, 50% of drag acts as a steering force while 85% of lift does. At 45 degrees inflow, the drag and lift have an equal contribution to steering. 

A good helmsman will anticipate the wave and input steering prior to it hitting. A good autopilot does this as well, and tirelessly. 

Also, in normal cruising boats we aren't talking about AR 6 rudders, rather 3 or less. Even on something as extreme as a Pogo, the rudder AR is less than 4. On all out race boats, you will get 6 or a little higher - but the AR of the rudder will have inconsequential affect on the seaworthiness of that type of boat, no matter what it is. 

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Thanks, DDW.

22 hours ago, DDW said:

As in anything in boat design, the unstayed rig forces compromises, the main one being a jib is inefficient. The cascade of decisions starting there leads to a non traditional looking rig, and anything non traditional is a hard sell in yachting. In small truly open development classes, jibs have been gone for 50 years. Larger boat racing rules explicitly or practically require a sloop rig, cruising boats follow racing trends, I think that is the short answer. 

Is this about "small" or about "truly open" (or both)?  There are surely some scaling issues here.  Stability increases up by the 4th power of length.  Deflections of a cantilever beam are cubic, and buckling of a column (which I presume is the limiting factor in stayed mast size and weight) is quadratic. I haven't given it a lot of deep thought, but it strikes me that the laws of relativity and similitude might give free standing rigs a weight advantage for a ~15 ft. boat that they don't have at ~65 ft.  That doesn't take into account aerodynamic considerations.

Sorry, this is thread drift...

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24 minutes ago, MFH125 said:

scaling issues here. 

Related to this topic, I am struck by who the various recent wild and wacky Americas cup editions have all kept jibs and stays.

Even Larry's big tri - a completely 'open' unconstrained design by rules and money.  During the lead up there was 'rumor' that it was faster with just mainsail, but when it came down to the race they (mostly) used a jib (and always stays).

I have not even stayed at this holiday inn for this level of aero and structural engineering, so I'm just left with questions based on empirical observations.

24 minutes ago, MFH125 said:

Sorry, this is thread drift...

Well, it is really not . . .if there is a possibility that some variation of un-stayed rigs are both better sailing and more likely to survive a roll-over... then it is dead smack on topic.  I guess so far I'm listening but have not really heard a compelling case - admittedly I might not recognize the compelling case if it bit me in the ass :huh:

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6 hours ago, MFH125 said:

Thanks, DDW.

Is this about "small" or about "truly open" (or both)?  There are surely some scaling issues here.  Stability increases up by the 4th power of length.  Deflections of a cantilever beam are cubic, and buckling of a column (which I presume is the limiting factor in stayed mast size and weight) is quadratic. I haven't given it a lot of deep thought, but it strikes me that the laws of relativity and similitude might give free standing rigs a weight advantage for a ~15 ft. boat that they don't have at ~65 ft.  That doesn't take into account aerodynamic considerations.

Sorry, this is thread drift...

Unfortunately not nearly that simple. Euler column buckling is dependent primarily on stiffness, carbon is only a bit stiffer than aluminum (though specific stiffness is higher). Cantilever mast is dependent on flexural modulus, many times what aluminum is. There are so many differences that you have to compare real examples. It is hard to optimize a carbon compression rig because there are too many nodes and too much asymmetry, while a cantilever is pretty simple. Beyond pure weight is VCG, my 65' rig VCG is about 20' off the waterline (because both diameter and wall thickness are tapered), a marconi would be 32' +/-, that is a pretty big difference, about the same as adding a ton to the keel, or making the rig 40% lighter. Speaking of capsize resistance. 

5 hours ago, estarzinger said:

Related to this topic, I am struck by who the various recent wild and wacky Americas cup editions have all kept jibs and stays.

Even Larry's big tri - a completely 'open' unconstrained design by rules and money.  During the lead up there was 'rumor' that it was faster with just mainsail, but when it came down to the race they (mostly) used a jib (and always stays).

I have not even stayed at this holiday inn for this level of aero and structural engineering, so I'm just left with questions based on empirical observations.

Well, it is really not . . .if there is a possibility that some variation of un-stayed rigs are both better sailing and more likely to survive a roll-over... then it is dead smack on topic.  I guess so far I'm listening but have not really heard a compelling case - admittedly I might not recognize the compelling case if it bit me in the ass :huh:

In racing, allowed sail area is king, and if the pressure was insufficient for the wing to fully power the boat, the jib was flown. I can guarantee that any winged boat would much rather have the right size wing for any condition, rather than a wing and jib, but the rules don't allow it. It's also hard to swap wings during a race when the pressure drops. Where sail area is strictly limited (C class cats for example) the last jibs were seen in the '60s (~20 years before wings). And that is, actually, one of the problematic areas for a bald headed rig, changing jibs to adjust area is not an option. Reefing gear takes care of most of that, but it's just another one of those compromises. We do carry a 1000 sq ft asym for broad reaching, but it is much less useful that the asym on a sloop because the main is so much more efficient off the wind than a sloop rig generally. 

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1 hour ago, DDW said:

. I can guarantee that any winged boat would much rather have the right size wing for any condition, rather than a wing and jib,

DDW, my understanding is that this is in fact not true.  Across various iterations of AC wings, they have had more than enough breeze for just the wing but preferred wing plus jib. . . . I understand that this is at least in part because they can control/twist the top of the wind actually create positive righting moment while the bottom of the wing and the jib create drive.  But empirically, many times with the wing, they have quite obviously had a bunch breeze and still used a jib.

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8 hours ago, estarzinger said:

Even Larry's big tri - a completely 'open' unconstrained design by rules and money.  During the lead up there was 'rumor' that it was faster with just mainsail, but when it came down to the race they (mostly) used a jib (and always stays).

Jib trimmers Union. Didn't want to put Robby out of a job.

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1 hour ago, estarzinger said:

DDW, my understanding is that this is in fact not true.  Across various iterations of AC wings, they have had more than enough breeze for just the wing but preferred wing plus jib. . . . I understand that this is at least in part because they can control/twist the top of the wind actually create positive righting moment while the bottom of the wing and the jib create drive.  But empirically, many times with the wing, they have quite obviously had a bunch breeze and still used a jib.

Could be? Also the wing alone offers little directional control for prestart or crash recovery maneuvering. And, you do not know how conditions will change during the race, there is no opportunity at all to put one up should it become advantageous. The wing can be feathered if too much pressure, but if too little you will just slow down. If it were more efficient over a wide range of conditions, you would see them on class A and C cats where they are legal (but not used for decades). I watched some of the AC races on SF Bay, as I recall in some of them no jib was carried. 

If the wing twist were controllable to a greater extent, you could use the top to create righting force and the bottom of a bare wing to create drive, with an improved L/D (this was suggested even back in Marchaj's books). We know for a fact that a wing with a jib in front of it is aerodynamically inefficient, things like this have been tested in wind tunnels for 100 years with no ambiguity. Racing sailplanes aren't designed that way for a reason. I suppose there could be some operational advantages for this peculiar type of racing that outweigh the aerodynamic inefficiency.

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On 5/20/2021 at 10:14 PM, CapDave said:

 

'gentleman's boat' ........ Hanuman?

 

I spent some time around Royal Huisman when she was being built.

This would all be a matter of definition and personal opinion . . . while a fabulous boat - she would not be a 'gentleman's yacht' in my book. More in the superyacht/billionaires toy category - no disrespect to the boat or the man just a (at least in my mind) clearly different category - and a guy (or gal) could have one (or two) of each :)

In my definition/mind, the gentleman's yacht will certainly have a pro maintenance shore team, but can and is sailed by the family and/or Corinthian friends.  For racing, might or might not (depending on seriousness) need to bring the gardener, who just happens to be a past Olympic sailor.

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5 minutes ago, estarzinger said:

sailed by the family and/or Corinthian friends.

well.....you just need a bigger family....or more friends?

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11 minutes ago, estarzinger said:

who are skilled enough to sail a j-class . . . 

Easier to sail, by far, than his other yacht

DSC07814.thumb.jpeg.19f78907093990a6a6d5ce866e93c6b3.jpeg

90m Athena in January off Antigua

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Just now, CapDave said:

Easier to sail, by far, than his other yacht

When your 'easier to sail boat' is a j-class . . . . you do rather need an entourage of 'pros and help'.

Again, not knocking it. But there is rather something nice about a super elegant gem of a boat which you can cruise with your wife and race with a few friends.  Even when, perhaps especially when, you feel like you need to mostly live with an entourage around you.

 

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On 5/22/2021 at 11:20 AM, DDW said:

There are several instances of boats with unstayed rigs doing a barrel roll and the rig surviving. In fact I am not aware of one that has failed that way, though I imagine there must be an example somewhere. With robust cruising specs, I believe a carbon unstayed rig is lighter, and has a lower CG, than a stayed rig. The components critical to failure are reduced from perhaps 100 to only one. 

IIRC Bill King's "Galway Blazer" lost her freestanding rigs in the (original) Golden Globe to a rolling... had they been carbon in may've been a different story...

 http://wavetrain.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/king.2.jpg

king.2.jpg

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3 hours ago, ALL@SEA said:

 freestanding rigs Golden Globe

 

I believe there was one freestanding rig in the BOC (1982  Tony Lush's cat ketch Lady Pepperell - pitchpoled and abandoned in the Indian ocean) and one in the around alone (1998 cat schooner Project Amazon - probably a better design by Spondberg, but the two owners were always underfunded - ended up snapping its foremast and being abandoned on the hard I believe).

I feel like I'm missing one further one, vague memories of a cat schooner getting into trouble off s Africa in one of these races, but my memory refuses to dredge up details.

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On 5/21/2021 at 10:43 PM, estarzinger said:

........................conclusion of the coroner report.  

"There is no evidence that any particular style or design of boat fared better or worse in the conditions. The age of yacht, age of design, construction method, construction material, high or low stability, heavy or light displacement or rig type were not determining factors."  

 

Reading various posts and considering his own boats - Mike's 'theoretical' position on RM and AVS may actually be pretty simple and agreeable -............

I missed replying to this and it's important for you.

The coroner made no such finding.

You are actually getting confused with the statement of the race review committee of the CYCA. That report was at odds with specialist professional evidence tendered by both Barry Deakin from Southampton/Wolfston and Martin Renilson from the AMC.

The race review committee's report was based on statistics that included both knockdowns and fully rolled boats as stability casualties. That's not the professional path which only considers full inversion as a stability casualty. 

In Fact, in the coroners report the relevant and significant finding was :

  "That the lower a vessel's limit of Positive Stability the more susceptible it is to being knocked down and being inverted;

"

That actually directly contradicts Dovell who as a technical advisor to the CYCA on this was suggesting that LPS made no difference.

 

 

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4 hours ago, estarzinger said:

I believe there was one freestanding rig in the BOC (1982  Tony Lush's cat ketch Lady Pepperell - pitchpoled and abandoned in the Indian ocean) and one in the around alone (1998 cat schooner Project Amazon - probably a better design by Spondberg, but the two owners were always underfunded - ended up snapping its foremast and being abandoned on the hard I believe).

I feel like I'm missing one further one, vague memories of a cat schooner getting into trouble off s Africa in one of these races, but my memory refuses to dredge up details.

Lady Pepperell was a modified Hunter, she did pitchpole and was abandon because the keel began to come off. The rig was still standing when abandon after the pitchpole. I did not think Project Amazon snapped a mast, rather was stored on the hard for 10 years looking for a buyer before being cut up for scrap - but could be wrong, hard to find much info on the boat's later years. Dismasting is much more of an issue with a marconi rig than a carbon free standing one. There are very, very few dismastings of Nonsuch or Freedom and it is a pretty large pool of boats. A few of the very early Nonsuch had problem because the mast builder did not understand engineering (drilled a big hole thru the aluminum mast right at the partners).

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Just now, DDW said:

 I did not think Project Amazon snapped a mast, 

my memory, which also could well be faulty, was that with the second owner, and named Tin Can, he was trying to sail with just a jib on the foremast and it snapped and then it went on the hard because he did not have money to replace the mast.

Pete Goss's Team Philips was another interesting attempt.  It seemed like their analytical team did not do high quality work, which surprised me give Pete's funding and background.

It is too bad that none of these boats really ever had chance.  The French dont seemed to have dabbled in this - I always presumed they modeled all this out and decided it was not worthwhile but idk.

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3 hours ago, MikeJohns said:

I missed replying to this and it's important for you.

No, actually - its all pretty much what we have already agreed.

Quote

  "That the lower a vessel's limit of Positive Stability the more susceptible it is to being knocked down and being inverted;

As a general statement, we all agree that more RM and higher AVS is beneficial, all else being equal. I have stated this repeatedly. we all agree on this.  However, very rarely is all else equal.  You end up with design compromises and trade-offs and where the optimum point for those trade-offs will depend on the specific vessel/owners mission/purposes.

Quote

That actually directly contradicts Dovell who as a technical advisor to the CYCA on this was suggesting that LPS made no difference.

No, they are considering different things, and when you properly read/understand them, they both can/are true.  In theory and in generality, we agree more RM and AVS are beneficial.  BUT when faced with the power of actual 60 breaking waves, in practice the force of the waves can simply wash out the comparatively little differences between the RM/AVS's.  Both of these things are true, both of these things were also findings from the post fastnet studies.

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1 hour ago, DDW said:

Dismasting is much more of an issue with a marconi rig than a carbon free standing one. There are very, very few dismastings of Nonsuch or Freedom and it is a pretty large pool of boats. A few of the very early Nonsuch had problem because the mast builder did not understand engineering (drilled a big hole thru the aluminum mast right at the partners).

There is a Freedom 28 cat ketch a few slips away from my boat.   One day when the owner was out sailing one of the masts broke off even though it wasn't a windy day.   He ended up replacing both carbon fiber masts since there were signs of possible problems with the other mast.

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1 hour ago, estarzinger said:

 

Pete Goss's Team Philips was another interesting attempt.  It seemed like their analytical team did not do high quality work, which surprised me give Pete's funding and background.

 

I talked to Pete about that, he said many problems with the boat, but the rig worked very well. Their carbon work was suspect, the hull broke off and the masts were quite heavy.

52 minutes ago, slap said:

There is a Freedom 28 cat ketch a few slips away from my boat.   One day when the owner was out sailing one of the masts broke off even though it wasn't a windy day.   He ended up replacing both carbon fiber masts since there were signs of possible problems with the other mast.

The Freedoms built with a Goetz mast are also suspect. I had them quote on my masts and it was quite clear they did not know what they were doing with these. Built in two half shells and glued together, and looking at the stresses as you would a marconi rig. Not remotely the same.

The Wylie Wildcat also broke it's mast on the way to Hawaii, a Composite Engineering spar. It was analyzed as an incomplete infusion issue (I understand the entire boat was eventually scrapped due to infusion issues). CE said it was the only mast they have ever had fail. I believe they made all of the Nonsuch and Wyliecat carbon masts, that is the only failure I know of. 

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15 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

I sailed on the PROJECT AMAZON and it was the scariest boat I have ever sailed on. The owner was even scarier...

tell us more.  I always thought it was a fascinating design.  What was scary - poor directional control, or . . . 

59 minutes ago, DDW said:

 

Did you ever talk with randy repass, after he was done with his boat?  I talked with him during one of his frustrating moments and he was just all focused on the negatives and problems, and I was a bit curious with some perspective what he thought about it, and in particular the rig.

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3 hours ago, estarzinger said:

my memory, which also could well be faulty, was that with the second owner, and named Tin Can

Good god - I never knew there was another, previous boat named Tin Can!!  (Speaking of desirable and undesirable characteristics of offshore yachts...do you recall the other Tin Can, of 2008?  Hard for me to believe that there was previous boat with that terrible name (in order to try to keep up with this discussion, I googled Tin Can, the one you mentioned...and suddenly remembered David Vann’s ill-fated craft - which is not really worth mentioning in this erudite thread, but it does present a sort of an extreme case study, perhaps :-) )

5685B8E9-BE16-4203-8DF9-BE51D3F2D53B.jpeg

4D573C2B-9748-42BE-A39A-6068D6BFF9D6.jpeg

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The rollers for what passed as a gooseneck made me think of all the stories from down in the Caribbean (where I joined the boat) about slave kids getting sucked into the sugar cane mill and having arms and legs ripped off. 

    Directional control when we ran over the local fisherman who was hired to tow the boat out to the start line for the St Thomas Rolex Regatta. Actually it was a near miss on the mornings of the regatta and the AMAZON skipper and the towboat driver both threw their end of the towline into the water at the same time and lost an expensive halyard. The boat was all but unmanueverable under power and not much better until the sails were raised and at least 10knots of boatspeed was attained. We were still under tow when the mainsail battens finally popped onto the right side for the tack we were on and the boat accelerated to about 17 knots immediately and the tow boat guy refused to let his end go (Loose it up Mon!) from his earlier experience and we sailed right by him. He had been at a slow idle while we were raising sails and when he gunned his outboard it loaded up and stalled and the towline to his stern snapped taught and his heavy plywood Island Deep V boat swapped ends and looked like a fishing lure 'Jitterbug' flooding over the transom as the skipper climbed up on his foredeck. Good thing because the towline snapped and would have chopped him in two if he had still been at the helm. Air in the forepeak of the fishing boat kept it nearly afloat and is seemed to take forever before we could round up and tack back to him to try and lend assistance. We could not control our speed or approach and nearly ran him down a second time and he was screaming at us to just 'Get de hell outta here Mon!!!' 

    We sailed past him to windward and tried another pass with a big bearaway to come up head to wind and that was even scarier (for all of us) and the last I saw of the fisherman he dove into the water thinking that we were going to finish him and his boat off once and for all. We sort of heaved to when we got the AMAZON slowed down and tried to get him to swim to us but his fellow Redhook fishermen brethren had seen the whole thing and came to his rescue. 

     I never did get used to seeing those tapered mast wing tips from waving in huge circles up above the boat and can see how deeply reefed the headboard could cause a mast to fail. The whole mast length seemed to need the compression of the battens and roach to keep the mast stable from pumping even in moderate seas. 

     Down below on the boat was even scarier and stinky than just about any vessel I have ever been of. I asked the skipper where the head was and he just opened a lewmar hatch to the after end of the centerboard trunk that was sort of a cloaca/seachest into which the diesel exhaust, galley scraps, and hydraulic fluid were churning. I must have looked puzzled and was told to just sit on the sill of the hatch and add my effluent to the sickening brew! 

     I could go on...

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12 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

     I could go on...

lol, and Sponberg makes the boat sound so sophisticated and elegant (although he does get into there having been no efforts at weight control in the initial construction).

So if one essentially wanted to design that boat again today, properly, are there obvious first choice people to hire as the designer and engineers? 

  

9 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

AH, I had been trying to remember Frog Kiss - had some dinners with Mouligne way back when . . . he had skills and I attributed his results more to that than the boat, although I also wondered if he had a sweet-heart rating.

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Are you thinking of another 60'er or, just to pick a number, 44'? 

Because I've been patiently waiting for someone to entice Yves Marie Tanton to update his design and get it back in production.

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1 minute ago, IStream said:

Are you thinking of another

me?

IDK - I'm pretty honest with myself about this. I want to create every chance for something nice and fun to happen, but there is a very real possibility that it may not.  It is not like when I was younger and I just simply force it to happen no matter what I had to give up.

I have some more few years looking after my wife's parents which will prevent any long voyages during that time frame.  But I have been/am looking for something that tickles me just right to start design and building - If I started right now and did it all properly it might be ready to launch just about by the time I am 'free' again.  As I mentioned somewhere here recently, I have 6 'concepts' I have investigated (and I have written a few small checks just to look into things), but none of them so far have yet hit the funny bone hard enough to trigger a 'commitment event'.  

 

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On 5/22/2021 at 1:27 AM, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Yeah and you increase the section size/strength of the masts to compensate.

TAANSTAFL.

Friend of mine has an unstayed junk rig. My rig is bigger and considerably lighter, with stays, and I could likely pull 50kg or more off of my rig mass by swapping from galvanised wire to dyneema.

FKT

It is a trade off, that's sure but as you have to increase the size/strength of the mast to compensate they become bullet proof to forces dues to a "non standard use" such as pitchpoling!

Also an unstayed rig is a pure cantilever (no compression) thus needs to be solid at its base but can be slender toward the top whereas a mast is a strut (lot of compression + some bending) so needs to be solid all the way up and won't resist well to bending forces from the water when the boat is inverted (most big marconi boats loose their mast during a rollover).

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2 hours ago, estarzinger said:

Did you ever talk with randy repass, after he was done with his boat?  I talked with him during one of his frustrating moments and he was just all focused on the negatives and problems, and I was a bit curious with some perspective what he thought about it, and in particular the rig.

Never talked to him post ownership. I've sailed on the sistership (just a daysail) and it seemed OK in a Wylie sort of way. It has a very big main. What specifics did he mention?

2 hours ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Good god - I never knew there was another, previous boat named Tin Can!!  (Speaking of desirable and undesirable characteristics of offshore yachts...do you recall the other Tin Can, of 2008?  Hard for me to believe that there was previous boat with that terrible name (in order to try to keep up with this discussion, I googled Tin Can, the one you mentioned...and suddenly remembered David Vann’s ill-fated craft - which is not really worth mentioning in this erudite thread, but it does present a sort of an extreme case study, perhaps :-) )

4D573C2B-9748-42BE-A39A-6068D6BFF9D6.jpeg

That boat is sitting on the hard in the Napa Marina, about 5 miles from me, been there for a number of years. Still looks a little scary.

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29 minutes ago, Elegua said:

Out of curiosity, what are those six concepts? 

In a few words . . . (but there is a ton of thought/concept behind the few words, some of them have a relatively narrow range of size/design possibilities because of mission constraints while others have quite a wide size and other range of possibilities)

gentleman's yacht
highish latitude cruising boat
Open sort
trans ocean fast tri
polar trawler
coastal/intercoastal power boat

I can envision fun and useful actual lifestyles in any of those categories.

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5 minutes ago, DDW said:

Never talked to him post ownership. I've sailed on the sistership (just a daysail) and it seemed OK in a Wylie sort of way. It has a very big main. What specifics did he mention?

 

it was unfortunately a long time ago and I honestly did not focus much on it as we had other things on our plate at the time, and most of it was the sort of 'shitty marine product' failures you and I would just expect, but which he did not.  There was some rig discussion but I don't remember much details, just that it was big and more difficult to handle than he had expected.  All more about implementation details than design concepts I think, except I always thought he would have been better off in something just smaller.

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1 hour ago, Rasputin22 said:

 I never did get used to seeing those tapered mast wing tips from waving in huge circles up above the boat and can see how deeply reefed the headboard could cause a mast to fail. The whole mast length seemed to need the compression of the battens and roach to keep the mast stable from pumping even in moderate seas. 

 

The masts pumping indicates they were no where near stiff enough, or perhaps too heavy, or both. In certain conditions a Nonsuch aluminum mast will pump with no sail on, you are told to tighten the sheet and topping lift which flexes it back. The carbon ones do not do that. The masts on Anomaly are on the stiff side per my request (I don't believe much in the "flexibility releases the leech" school of trim) and pumping has never been an issue. The sails on Project Amazon are only a little bigger than my main. 

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4 minutes ago, estarzinger said:

All more about implementation details than design concepts I think, except I always thought he would have been better off in something just smaller.

I can understand that. I think the main on that boat is about 1500 sq ft. Mine is 960 and as each year goes by I regret a little more it being that big. Easy to handle if everything is working properly, but not if things go sideways, also just getting it on and off the boat is 1/2 day hard labor. At my advanced age I think 600 sq ft is a good sail size. :)

Other than the hydraulics leaking, I've really only had one rig failure, one of the battens punched through the 2" spectra webbing. Biggest battens are 22 mm diameter solid pultruded rod, 24' long. Load on them seems to be pretty high. 

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4 minutes ago, estarzinger said:

In a few words . . . (but there is a ton of thought/concept behind the few words, some of them have a relatively narrow range of size/design possibilities because of mission constraints while others have quite a wide size and other range of possibilities)

gentleman's yacht
highish latitude cruising boat
Open sort
trans ocean fast tri
polar trawler
coastal/intercoastal power boat

All interesting except maybe the trawler. A trawler might be the last boat I own. The trans-ocean fast tri sounds the most interesting to me.  A good friend showed me that if you get a lobster roll at Day's Lobster in Yarmouth you can peek in to the back of Greene Marine... ground zero for that kind of thing. 

Well, and then I think of how much I like windsurfing and scuba and start thinking about a modern cargo schooner. :D 

 

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6 minutes ago, Elegua said:

The trans-ocean fast tri sounds the most interesting to me. 

 

The tri would unfortunately be the very hardest sale of the 6 to the SO. She does not have many multihull hours, but what she has leads her to believe she will not like the motion.

I had some good discussions with Irons about a design. I dont think it would be hard to hit it about right for me - sort of already a solved problem which I would just dumb down a tiny bit.  Would be a fun challenge. 

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50 minutes ago, estarzinger said:

The tri would unfortunately be the very hardest sale of the 6 to the SO. She does not have many multihull hours, but what she has leads her to believe she will not like the motion.

I had some good discussions with Irons about a design. I dont think it would be hard to hit it about right for me - sort of already a solved problem which I would just dumb down a tiny bit.  Would be a fun challenge. 

Trimarans have felt to me much more like a light mono in motion, though my understanding is very limited as I've only owned dinghy sized ones and sailed on 30 something foot trimarans and never offshore.  It seemed to me more comfortable than the Open sort of thing.  So something like a de-tuned Mod70 or something closer to Rapido?  What was Irens thoughts about a cruising tri? 

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11 minutes ago, Elegua said:

 What was Irens thoughts about a cruising tri? 

He had a 50' derivative of an ORMA 60.  It had gone thru a couple evolutions.  I guess originally someone had been trying to develop a racing class. And then it had turned into a custom.  And then it had been detuned just a tiny bit.  It terms of 'cruising' it was generally in the same corner as the pogo esthetic but was more specifically ocean capable.  Had good cockpit protection (quite like that recent scow open 40), very single hand-able - more 'creature comfort' than I really expected - all the details pretty well worked out and decently proved from the 60's.

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3 hours ago, estarzinger said:

He had a 50' derivative of an ORMA 60.  It had gone thru a couple evolutions.  I guess originally someone had been trying to develop a racing class. And then it had turned into a custom.  And then it had been detuned just a tiny bit.  It terms of 'cruising' it was generally in the same corner as the pogo esthetic but was more specifically ocean capable.  Had good cockpit protection (quite like that recent scow open 40), very single hand-able - more 'creature comfort' than I really expected - all the details pretty well worked out and decently proved from the 60's.

Your Bialetti would fit perfectly, though the stainless one might be a bit heavy.  That would be a fun boat to blast across passages. Inflatable SUPs with carbon oars don't weigh that much anyways. 

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4 hours ago, Elegua said:

Trimarans have felt to me much more like a light mono in motion, though my understanding is very limited as I've only owned dinghy sized ones and sailed on 30 something foot trimarans and never offshore.  It seemed to me more comfortable than the Open sort of thing.  So something like a de-tuned Mod70 or something closer to Rapido?  What was Irens thoughts about a cruising tri? 

I did some time on a Crowther 60' cat back when it seemed all the rage to keep pushing the mast further and further back (tiny main/huge headsail/huger...er kites) and increase the forward sheer to something resembling a ski jump. 

Going forward to the bow in any decent swell was rather interesting with the wind anywhere forrard of the mast.

It looked like a great candidate for running in the SO long swells, but I reckon it would not have been comfortable or well mannered , especially compared to the newer tris and cat designs from this century.   

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On 5/21/2021 at 6:31 PM, plenamar said:

Photo please !

Oh dear. I can hear the groans from the old timers here " please don't get him started". There is a pic on the boom brake thread, and several on page 129 of the "coolboats to admire thread".

 

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12 hours ago, Autonomous said:

Just so you know, Project Amazon was one of my ideal boats... A shame.

So, I am still curious from the crowd here - if you wanted to get an updated modernized version of this - who would you hire (designer and engineers)?

  

10 minutes ago, Cruisin Loser said:

Oh dear. I can hear the groans from the old timers here " please don't get him started". 

oh come on, it is not like we are running out of space here - give us like 3 of the most beautiful pictures you have pls

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20 minutes ago, estarzinger said:

So, I am still curious from the crowd here - if you wanted to get an updated modernized version of this - who would you hire (designer and engineers)?

Are we talking about trying to make a competitive cat ketch rigged Open 60? Then you probably want to go and get VPLP or similar designers with experience in open classes and access to computational tools for analysis and optimization.  CFD, etc. have their limitations, but if the cat ketch concept is genuinely not competitive, they can probably let you figure that out without the expense of building a whole boat.

If we're talking just a general high-performance cat ketch concept, then Tom Wylie is clearly someone to talk to.  He's already done an Open 60 with a free standing mast, and has experience with the cat ketch rig too on cruising boats.

I might talk to Paul Bieker or Nigel Irens about it too, just because I have a lot of respect for their abilities to translate interesting and unusual concepts into workable boats.

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12 minutes ago, MFH125 said:

Are we talking about trying to make a competitive cat ketch rigged Open 60? Then you probably want to go and get VPLP or similar designers with experience in open classes and access to computational tools for analysis and optimization. 

If we're talking just a general high-performance cat ketch concept, then Tom Wylie is clearly someone to talk to.  He's already done an Open 60 with a free standing mast, and has experience with the cat ketch rig too on cruising boats.

I might talk to Paul Bieker or Nigel Irens about it too, just because I have a lot of respect for their abilities to translate interesting and unusual concepts into workable boats.

yea, it does not need to be actually 'competitive'  . . . and I personally doubt the concept fundamental could be, and the owner would not be in any case. (would be interesting to hear VPLP's take on that but I don't need to write a check for the necessary modelling to find that answer just for curiosity)

Is there anyone in "French world" with good experience with freestanding masts?

I prefer to avoid 'the designer and engineers have never ever done this before but they are good guys' if it is possible - going down that path you really need to build 3 boats before you get one that is dialed in. (you might get lucky first go, but the odds seem against it)

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34 minutes ago, estarzinger said:

Is there anyone in "French world" with good experience with freestanding masts?

Not really as not that many were built, your best bet for a cruising boat would be Erik Lerouge : http://erik.lerouge.pagesperso-orange.fr/mono_15.htm - Scroll down...

Or Romaric Neyhousser who is working for Verdier and designed this :

ima-foil-mini-6-50-arkema-23458.jpg

42 minutes ago, MFH125 said:

the cat ketch concept is genuinely not competitive, they can probably let you figure that out without the expense of building a whole boat

Yes, would  not work now within the open 60 class or 6.50 class, but with foils, aero drag is becoming more important relatively and they might get to the point where  the free-standing rig makes sense as aerodynamic gain outweigh the extra mass!

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1 hour ago, estarzinger said:

oh come on, it is not like we are running out of space here - give us like 3 of the most beautiful pictures you have pls

OK, but I'll add a couple, underbody and interior, to give a better sense of what she is.

Restive-8895.jpg.1e6217de6f157e89b8b6f282aa2fe484.jpg

Mast head spin on carbon, 3-spreader frac rig

2021543138_Restiveonthemove.thumb.JPG.3a6748a6314edc14c9d825ef54d84f36.JPG

 

L1030936.thumb.jpg.df78e17954b142d83742276d949b1253.jpg

DSC_1877.thumb.jpg.b9fb06440c7573f41adc191ec710881c.jpg

Underbody.  8' fin, 6' carbon rudder.

20200617_114128.thumb.jpg.b4fe1bbf13c966b720bb2c490871cd53.jpg

 

230048585_Restive20below.thumb.jpg.a39b2f4748b7ce8db64ad2a7ab63524a.jpg

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20 hours ago, estarzinger said:

She does not have many multihull hours, but what she has leads her to believe she will not like the motion.

As a recent convert to cat from a life of mono - I would say at anchor the cat motion is better 70-80% of the time, worse 10-15%. The vulnerability is a short period chop close to the beam - which makes the cat skitter. Once the period stretches out and the monos are rolling, you don't even notice it in the cat. I hate rolling at anchor....

Underway it's low magnitude high frequency motion, no heeling no rolling. It's way way easier to do normal stuff like cooking and eating and showering and sleeping and repairs and sail handling and navigation and etc..You do have to hold on, it can get a little jerky, but I'd say it's better (less tiring, less dangerous) than mono like 90% of the time. You might lose your balance if you're not holding on, but you don't then get thrown across the cabin and break a rib while collecting a concussion. Downwind would be 100% better! My wife doesn't like heeling, so she gives it 100% upwind. Risk of going over the side I think is also substantially lower than a mono.

All this applies to bigger cats with high bridgedeck clearance - I really wouldn't go below 50' for comfortable liveaboard voyaging. YMMV. 

We have seen a few "fast" tris around the Eastern Caribbean - they look very uncomfortable at anchor in anything above a near-flat calm - very twitchy flopping from one ama to the other.

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21 hours ago, estarzinger said:

So if one essentially wanted to design that boat again today, properly, are there obvious first choice people to hire as the designer and engineers? 

Well for mast design I'd suggest Chris Mitchell in New Zealand for any stayed rig. I'm not sure that he does freestanding rigs but I don't think it would be hard for him.  https://www.aes.net.nz/  I worked with him on some very big carbon rigs and I was impressed by his knowledge and engineering skills

I'd much rather hire a designer who does their own engineering in-house than somebody that farms it out to the big guys like Gurit (High Modulus). It's not that I think HM does a bad job; they are very good. I just like the idea of keeping it in-house because stuff gets lost in translation between 2 companies. 

Unfortunately I have never been impressed by Eric Sponberg's work. Who builds a race boat without a really detailed weight control program? But that could be on the client/builder not him.

I'm friends with Paul Bieker who is a really outside the quadrilateral thinker. I really like his skinny 40' long range cruiser. It's everything that the big Dashew boats are not. Light, simple, basic. It is not designed to cross oceans but does have long range. Perfect for higher latitude cruising under power.

 https://biekerboats.com/project/40ft-long-range-cruiser/

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21 minutes ago, IStream said:

That varnish job is, literally, spectacular:

Restive-8895.jpg.1e6217de6f157e89b8b6f282aa2fe484.jpg

Sure. If you have a full time varnisher on staff then it's easy.
 

I would echo CapDave's comments on cats vs. monos. Our first boat was a heavy 30' longish keel mono. The 40' cat was about the same weight fully loaded. 

The motion in the cat was way more comfortable, even upwind. Beating for 3 days into strong trades we were pointing higher than other 50ish mono cruising boats and I think more comfortable. We were keeping the speed around 7-7.5 knots to keep the motion a bit better (encounter the waves a bit slower) They eventually ducked behind an atoll to anchor and rest. I recalled a similar duration/waves on the 30' boat and it was night and day. On the passage on the mono we spend all our energy just hanging on. And it was a stiff boat.

After a long passage we always arrived well rested and ready to go out and find the ATM and then a restaurant. AFTER checking in of course. Never "Thank god we can sleep now"

Actually for motion 2m seas on the beam with short period were the worst. Up with one hull, then down, just as the other hull starts to lift. 

I think our 40' cat was fine for long term voyaging. I carried too many tools, scuba gear, books, my wife had too many shoes, and kid had 300+ books. It was well loaded down but the designed bridgedeck was high enough that true slams of the bridgedeck were a very rare event. Cats with low bridgedecks that I sailed on were NOT good.

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58 minutes ago, Cruisin Loser said:

OK, but I'll add a couple, underbody and interior, to give a better sense of what she is.

Restive-8895.jpg.1e6217de6f157e89b8b6f282aa2fe484.jpg

Mast head spin on carbon, 3-spreader frac rig

2021543138_Restiveonthemove.thumb.JPG.3a6748a6314edc14c9d825ef54d84f36.JPG

 

L1030936.thumb.jpg.df78e17954b142d83742276d949b1253.jpg

DSC_1877.thumb.jpg.b9fb06440c7573f41adc191ec710881c.jpg

Underbody.  8' fin, 6' carbon rudder.

20200617_114128.thumb.jpg.b4fe1bbf13c966b720bb2c490871cd53.jpg

 

230048585_Restive20below.thumb.jpg.a39b2f4748b7ce8db64ad2a7ab63524a.jpg

Damn. Someone besides Nat got the Herreschoff white/wood balance right.

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20 minutes ago, Zonker said:

....I'm friends with Paul Bieker who is a really outside the quadrilateral thinker. I really like his skinny 40' long range cruiser. It's everything that the big Dashew boats are not. Light, simple, basic. It is not designed to cross oceans but does have long range. Perfect for higher latitude cruising under power.

 https://biekerboats.com/project/40ft-long-range-cruiser/

Than Bieker 40 is very cool.

Sort of a smaller version of George Buehler's IDLEWILD which had claimed (in 2005) the longest nonstop passage by a motor yacht.

I reckon both would rely heavily on the paravanes to control roll.  Anyone have experience with paravanes in huge seas?

http://georgebuehler.com/Idelwild.html

Steve

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2 minutes ago, Panope said:

Than Bieker 40 is very cool.

Sort of a smaller version of George Buehler's IDLEWILD which had claimed (in 2005) the longest nonstop passage by a motor yacht.

I reckon both would rely heavily on the paravanes to control roll.  Anyone have experience with paravanes in huge seas?

http://georgebuehler.com/Idelwild.html

Steve

Except, Paul apparently has a better eye for aesthetics than Buehler.....:o

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3 hours ago, estarzinger said:

So, I am still curious from the crowd here - if you wanted to get an updated modernized version of this - who would you hire (designer and engineers)?

 

A version of Project Amazon that was built as intended, not compromised by the owner and builder would satisfy my curiosity. My interest in it is fast cruising.

Our very own BP is known to build a good all around boat. As far as structure I dunno.

My focus now is on small garage-shop kept boats, I have not kept up with the mid size designers. This is what I am considering building, note the freestanding masts, LOL.

03abecfadb49f5c532639b800dbc95dc.jpg

 

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13 minutes ago, Autonomous said:

My focus now is on small garage-shop kept boats, I have not kept up with the mid size designers. This is what I am considering building, note the freestanding masts, LOL.

Looks a lot like the Drascombe Lugger

https://drascombe.uk/

Or a Bay Raider

https://swallowyachts.com/range/bay-raider-20/

 

 

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3 hours ago, estarzinger said:

So, I am still curious from the crowd here - if you wanted to get an updated modernized version of this - who would you hire (designer and engineers)?

 

I'd try Irens. He thinks out of the box, has experience both in freestanding masts and bald headed rigs, has designed and seen a number of them built. Maybe Bieker because he can also think out of the box. Wylie has some experience with the rigs, but you would need to like his lawn dart style hulls. 

Engineering a free standing mast is not the problem, any competent engineer can do that. It is understanding the cat rig that is much rarer. People - and many NAs - think of it as they would a sloop with the jib down. That does not get you are very good boat. 

Also, most cat ketches have masts close enough together to limit performance - close enough to interact, but not close enough to interact as a single airfoil like a sloop. You need to separate them longitudinally (long light boat) or laterally (biplane cat), unless upwind performance doesn't matter much to you. Irens attacked this by overlapping them which has its own set of issues. 

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1 hour ago, IStream said:

That varnish job is, literally, spectacular:

Restive-8895.jpg.1e6217de6f157e89b8b6f282aa2fe484.jpg

It's beautiful, always admire well kept brightwork. When I was boatshopping for a liveaboard cruiser the top of my list was: Zero exterior woodwork. 

Almost made it! We have about 50 sq. inches of bare teak on our two transom steps. Token teak.

IMG_2418.thumb.jpeg.185f41ac1ae5af941ff131c3a2a536af.jpeg

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33 minutes ago, DDW said:

Except, Paul apparently has a better eye for aesthetics than Buehler.....:o

Ya, Buehler,s wheel house could certainly use some refinment.

But who am I to talk..........

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2 hours ago, estarzinger said:

I prefer to avoid 'the designer and engineers have never ever done this before but they are good guys' if it is possible - going down that path you really need to build 3 boats before you get one that is dialed in. (you might get lucky first go, but the odds seem against it)

If you ever wonder why the sailing world is so conservative, look no further than this comment.  Not that I disagree, mind you, but the logical outcome is small iterative changes on the current formula.  The advantage of having a well explored design space and properly dialed in design is probably larger than the differences between most decent concepts.

 

38 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Unfortunately I have never been impressed by Eric Sponberg's work. Who builds a race boat without a really detailed weight control program? But that could be on the client/builder not him.

You can't blame Sponberg for the lack of weight control or poor build quality.  There are a lot of stories like this in BOC/Around Alone/Vendee history.  A client shows up with a dream and a plan for securing sponsorship.  A design gets done while sponsorship is pursued.  The sponsorship usually doesn't materializes, or materializes only in dribs and drabs and the boat is either never built, or cobbled together.  If it does get built there isn't enough money for it to compete against the well funded campaigns.  PROJECT AMAZON is not the only boat built for these races that never really made it past the starting line.

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1 hour ago, Zonker said:

I would echo CapDave's comments on cats

yea, Cat's are probably more functional.

However just as a matter of personal esthetics a Cat will not do it for me.  They look foreign on the water. 

While a Tri looks like it belongs - like an Albatrosses soaring just over the wave tops.

This is odd for me, because I am usually an 'engineering first' guy, and I could spout some engineering reasons why I prefer tri, but it would simply be justifications - I would just much rather row out to one than a Cat. 

I recognize and acknowledge my irrationality here . .. . . but it is what it is.

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59 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Yep. I don't know about "famous" but that is Hull No, 1  of the carbon cutters. Hull No. 3 is ready to launch. No. 4 is about 40% done I think.

One day you'll have to tell the story of the owner's ideas to have the 4 boats.

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1 hour ago, Zonker said:

Sure. If you have a full time varnisher on staff then it's easy.

A well beyond ridiculous exaggeration. She gets a coat or two on the exterior at her builder's yard each winter.

 

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3 minutes ago, Cruisin Loser said:

A well beyond ridiculous exaggeration. She gets a coat or two on the exterior at her builder's yard each winter.

 

In New England I presume, not West Texas. A coat or two in the winter works where the sun doesn't shine, not so well in SoCal or Florida or the Carib. A coat every 3 months is more like it there. 

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It was an exaggeration but there is a lot of varnished wood there. How many man hours does that represent? 

Is she hauled out for the winter with a cover as well?

 

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I would have guessed that CL had inside winter storage for this boat - that is how it 'should' be kept.

It would be a bit sad to just shrink wrap and leave outside on a parking lot such a piece of fine art

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Just now, Zonker said:

It was an exaggeration but there is a lot of varnished wood there. How many man hours does that represent? 

Is she hauled out for the winter with a cover as well?

 

No cover. Indoor heated storage. 

She only pokes her nose as far south as Bermuda occasionally, then retreats back north to avoid sunburn, as do I. 

My wife and I have very fair complexions, she is from New Mexico and got her fill of hot sun as a child. 

We decided long ago that we much prefer Maine and Nova Scotia to the Caribbean, we kept a boat there once, tired of it quickly and decided winters are better spent heli-skiiing.

So she is sailed seasonally, mostly in Maine where she fits quite well.  

She has one head in 48', and one double berth, large, for  us. She is a very personal toy. 

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10 minutes ago, estarzinger said:

I would have guessed that CL had inside winter storage for this boat - that is how it 'should' be kept.

It would be a bit sad to just shrink wrap and leave outside on a parking lot such a piece of fine art

You "get" it.:)

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58 minutes ago, estarzinger said:

However just as a matter of personal esthetics a Cat will not do it for me.  They look foreign on the water. 

image.thumb.png.f1277a1adf6b4e3a8a54aad55a023001.png

Nothing? Nada? Zip?

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