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Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics of Offshore Yachts


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12 hours ago, Zonker said:

Yes, they would. No personal experience with paravanes.  But in HUGE seas, yeah they have been known to get pulled out of waves. But you probably can run them deeper in 99.5% of the time. With 10 knots of speed and only coastal(ish) cruising you should be able to stay away from really bad weather these days.

I don't mind Idlewild. Looks purposeful. Should have sloped the front of the wheelhouse windows forward.  And the sheer doesn't really match the split pipe fender line.  But overall an honest looking vessel.

Like a cousin with big tits but also buck teeth. 

image.png.b7789b9d1504cea5e9700fdf46e26039.png

Lovely metaphor.

You do know that you don’t have to kiss him EVERY time???

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That in no way diminishes the validity of their choices. They are buying the boat for themselves, not for you or me. I happen to prefer a deep fin, spade rudder, tall carbon rig, paradoxically on a wo

This has turned into Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics of Offshore Posters.

You know who to get the best advice from? Delivery skippers. It isn't their boat, they aren't in love with her and blind to her flaws. They have to get the boat from A to B despite the weather or

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20 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Can’t recall if Curlew’s second hull was cold moulded or glassed.  I want to say glass, but probably cold moulded.

Re: James Caird, that would’ve been a very uncomfortable trip  :-)

I asked Beth about Curlew - she remembers these details better. She spent more time with 'the English crowd' than I did. We wintered 2 winters in Ireland and she did speaking trips to London , used our reciprocal privilege's at the Royal Themes which was rather a nice perk, while I stayed and worked on the boat): "new cold molded outer skin of kauri with epoxy" she says.  We missed them by just a year (or perhaps two) I think in S Georgia - would have been nice to have met them 'in the wild' so to speak.

Uncomfortable, yea, and if I remember correctly they were wearing 'authentic clothing'.  The Nav they got fuckup a bit (no real criticism - easy to fuck up in a situation like that) and the support vessel had to come over and quietly tell them to change course or they would miss the island.  The team's mountain skills were more solid than the sea skills.

  

10 minutes ago, olaf hart said:

Curlew had a complete cold moulded hull built over the original carvel one, the Carrs spent a couple of years down here in a Hobart back in the day.

IIRC the hull work was done in NZ..

Ta

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On 5/25/2021 at 2:14 AM, estarzinger said:

No, actually - its all pretty much what we have already agreed.

As a general statement, we all agree that more RM and higher AVS is beneficial, all else being equal. I have stated this repeatedly. we all agree on this.  However, very rarely is all else equal.  You end up with design compromises and trade-offs and where the optimum point for those trade-offs will depend on the specific vessel/owners mission/purposes.

No, they are considering different things, and when you properly read/understand them, they both can/are true.  In theory and in generality, we agree more RM and AVS are beneficial.  BUT when faced with the power of actual 60 breaking waves, in practice the force of the waves can simply wash out the comparatively little differences between the RM/AVS's.  Both of these things are true, both of these things were also findings from the post fastnet studies.

Sorry I'm running a bit behind.

If you take out the knockdowns and just look at capsizes it’s a different picture. There were exactly the same trends in the 1998 S-H between stability and capsize as previously observed by Wolfston.  Their guide reasonably accurately indicates risk just from LPS for a raft of different monohulls. Barry Deakin is the person to talk to about this.

Kim Taylor ( NA who lambasted the clubs whitewash) pointed out that even in the absence of full stability data If you simply multiply the DL ratio by LPS and plot that against length you get an even better indication of vulnerability. It points to a poor showing within the IMS fleet in the S-H casualties.

As for the Fastnet that lead to Marchaj's tome. I thought the club report from the Fastnet was more honest that the CYCA's.  It stated for a start that a lot of the racing fleet actually had no experience in a storm !

Seamanship can make a less seaworthy boat safe everyone agrees that, but small increases in wave height might not be as small as you think for lighter boats.

AMC ( Renilson 1999) found for a Farr 40 ( IMS racer) to be capsized laying ahull beam on, that with a LPS at 110 degrees it required a 4.4m wave but at 115 degrees it took a 5.4 m fully breaking wave.

That extra meter is quite significant for a 5 degree increase in LPS.

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15 minutes ago, MikeJohns said:

f you take out the knockdowns and just look at capsizes it’s a different picture. There were exactly the same trends in the 1998 S-H between stability and capsize as previously observed by Wolfston.  

If you cherry pick evidence that suits you, you can reach any pre-determined conclusion...

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Zonker:

No. Wil was an intern with me when he was 15. He's 24 years old now and he did that 3D model about 2 years ago. He is now working with me on a new design, a 2021 answer to the Islander 28. They built 600 28's and I'm trying to capture the elements that made the I-28 so successful in a more modern hull and rig configuration. I'll post drawings soon. It's getting close to the time when I need to pass the baton.

Kimbo 1.JPG

Kim power.jpg

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6 hours ago, estarzinger said:

I asked Beth about Curlew - she remembers these details better. She spent more time with 'the English crowd' than I did. We wintered 2 winters in Ireland and she did speaking trips to London , used our reciprocal privilege's at the Royal Themes which was rather a nice perk, while I stayed and worked on the boat): "new cold molded outer skin of kauri with epoxy" she says.  We missed them by just a year (or perhaps two) I think in S Georgia - would have been nice to have met them 'in the wild' so to speak.

Uncomfortable, yea, and if I remember correctly they were wearing 'authentic clothing'.  The Nav they got fuckup a bit (no real criticism - easy to fuck up in a situation like that) and the support vessel had to come over and quietly tell them to change course or they would miss the island.  The team's mountain skills were more solid than the sea skills.

  

Ta

“Antarctic Oasis” - fantastic and beautiful book.  Some great pics (and history) of Curlew in there.  One of my favourite books.  (I believe they talk in some detail about the Kauri sheathing.) 

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14 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

“Antarctic Oasis” - fantastic and beautiful book.  Some great pics (and history) of Curlew in there.  One of my favourite books.  (I believe they talk in some detail about the Kauri sheathing.) 

Have you run across Kicki and Thies work (sailing Hiscock's Wanderer III)?  We first met them in Tasmania - saw some folks sailing a small cruising nice looking boat on and off anchor and invited them over for dinner.  Bumped into them many places afterwards, and for a short while they took the Carr's place in S. Georgia as the resident wooden boat helpers.  Also have really great photos, they write very well also but like with Deborah & Rolfe (Northern light) they include quite a strong anti-capitalist's voice in their writing which was not appreciated by American publishers.

But they are/were another small wooden boat doing very special quite difficult stuff.

 

30' of wooden boat IS REALLY all you need, to go almost anywhere (including wintering in S Georgia).  It is a hard message to get across today with all the selling pressure toward large more complicated vessels.  You do need to be decently tough and competent.

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7 hours ago, Panoramix said:

If you cherry pick evidence that suits you, you can reach any pre-determined conclusion...

That's actually the point. But in this case it's including data that shouldn't be there. 

It's pretty simple; Knockdown and recovery within LPS are not considered Stability Casualties in Naval Architecture. 

If there is enough reserve stability for the vessel to re-right from a knockdown and not to proceed into a capsize then it's considered to have adequate stability. 

That's what Wolfston institutes extensive  work was all about, coming up with some simple risk assesment based  on the most significant single criteria for modern hullforms that being stability.  Risk being Hazard (significant breaking wave) and Exposure ( likelihood of encounter).  

Researchers have propsed that the best indicator of whether or not a boat is inverted or recovers is the total area under the RM curve from 100 to 130 degrees.  That appears to be a better screening factor but it's too hard to apply to standards in practice.

 

 

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2 hours ago, estarzinger said:

Have you run across Kicki and Thies work (sailing Hiscock's Wanderer III)?  We first met them in Tasmania - saw some folks sailing a small cruising nice looking boat on and off anchor and invited them over for dinner.  Bumped into them many places afterwards, and for a short while they took the Carr's place in S. Georgia as the resident wooden boat helpers.  Also have really great photos, they write very well also but like with Deborah & Rolfe (Northern light) they include quite a strong anti-capitalist's voice in their writing which was not appreciated by American publishers.

But they are/were another small wooden boat doing very special quite difficult stuff.

 

30' of wooden boat IS REALLY all you need, to go almost anywhere (including wintering in S Georgia).  It is a hard message to get across today with all the selling pressure toward large more complicated vessels.  You do need to be decently tough and competent.

Kiki and Thies spent quite a while around Barnes Bay, we’re you there at the same time as well?

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26 minutes ago, olaf hart said:

Kiki and Thies spent quite a while around Barnes Bay, we’re you there at the same time as well?

yea, that is exactly where we first met them. The boat looked so lovely under sail.  We were passing thru reasonably quickly heading east bound - Steward island and back to Chile.

 

Jud - Port Pegasus on Steward island - I sought out exactly where Parlier repaired his mast.  We hung out there for a bit just to soak up the atmosphere.

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1 hour ago, MikeJohns said:

That's actually the point. But in this case it's including data that shouldn't be there. 

It's pretty simple; Knockdown and recovery within LPS are not considered Stability Casualties in Naval Architecture. 

If there is enough reserve stability for the vessel to re-right from a knockdown and not to proceed into a capsize then it's considered to have adequate stability. 

That's what Wolfston institutes extensive  work was all about, coming up with some simple risk assesment based  on the most significant single criteria for modern hullforms that being stability.  Risk being Hazard (significant breaking wave) and Exposure ( likelihood of encounter).  

Researchers have propsed that the best indicator of whether or not a boat is inverted or recovers is the total area under the RM curve from 100 to 130 degrees.  That appears to be a better screening factor but it's too hard to apply to standards in practice.

 

 

Here is the diagram you posted before :

rolled sydney Hobart.JPG

I am not sure where this idea of knockdown vs capsize comes from...

Seriously looking at this graph, range of stability doesn't seem to be such a big factor, as all kind of boats seem to have been rolled!!! Actually you would need to plot on the graph boats that haven't been rolled to reach a meaningful conclusion.

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4 hours ago, estarzinger said:

Have you run across Kicki and Thies work (sailing Hiscock's Wanderer III)?  We first met them in Tasmania - saw some folks sailing a small cruising nice looking boat on and off anchor and invited them over for dinner.  Bumped into them many places afterwards, and for a short while they took the Carr's place in S. Georgia as the resident wooden boat helpers.  Also have really great photos, they write very well also but like with Deborah & Rolfe (Northern light) they include quite a strong anti-capitalist's voice in their writing which was not appreciated by American publishers.

But they are/were another small wooden boat doing very special quite difficult stuff.

30' of wooden boat IS REALLY all you need, to go almost anywhere (including wintering in S Georgia).  It is a hard message to get across today with all the selling pressure toward large more complicated vessels.  You do need to be decently tough and competent.

I used to walk to the former bookstore in the former WTC (from my old office at Moody’s on Church St. in lower Manhattan) to escape the corporate office madness, and came across “Antarctic Oasis” there.  I bought it immediately then- it helped light a fire in my mind (along with “North to the Night”, which my father gave me).  I was like, ‘oh, so there really are much more interesting ways to live than this madness’  :-)

30 feet of wooden boat is all you need, as you say - but did you know Curlew has no lifelines?  Of course, they’re probably of somewhat dubious value (at least their name is of dubious value, since it implies to a newbie that having them will “save your life”?!), but it’s incredible they sailed all that way, even to Antarctica with hank-on sails and no lifelines on the foredeck...

I have indeed read about Kiki and Thies.  Hadn’t realized they did any writing beyond magazines...with an anti-capitalist slant: even better :-). I’m sure they have a very different perspective on the world from many people...

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1 hour ago, estarzinger said:

Jud - Port Pegasus on Steward island - I sought out exactly where Parlier repaired his mast.  We hung out there for a bit just to soak up the atmosphere.

Must get down there...one of the coolest bits of modern seamanship ever.  Like being on Pitcairn Isl. Must get south of Canada first :-). (Currently sorting boom, awaiting new mainsail, planning solar panels.  I’m sure I left out something else required to give the boat more desirable characteristics as an offshore yacht :-)  )

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Just now, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

.  I’m sure I left out something else required to give the boat more desirable characteristics as an offshore yacht :-)  )

the perfect coffee maker, or two or three :D

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7 minutes ago, estarzinger said:

the perfect coffee maker, or two or three :D

I finally nixed the pressurized stove-too espresso maker - you know the ones I mean?  It was a hardship making coffee for the two of us, Leah and I - since it was too small to make enough coffee for two people - so you’d have  to set it up and make another one after making the first one.  Ugh!  Made good coffee, but I like to minimize “cooking”, and it would require two times at the stove.  Have a French press now...good until the carafe breaks...(or has this been covered in depth in another thread? :-) :-) )

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4 hours ago, Panoramix said:

Here is the diagram you posted before :

 

I am not sure where this idea of knockdown vs capsize comes from...

Seriously looking at this graph, range of stability doesn't seem to be such a big factor, as all kind of boats seem to have been rolled!!! Actually you would need to plot on the graph boats that haven't been rolled to reach a meaningful conclusion.

As a rule a full inversion usually incapacitates the vessel. It's unable to continue and needs to either effect self rescue or be rescued.

A knockdown on it's side should not incapacitate a sailboat if it's designed to go to sea.

Post Fastnet it turned out to be confusing since people used knockdown for capsize as well. The terms B1 and B2 knockdown were introduced to distinguish between a  loss of reserve stability and a  knockdown where the boat is just rolled to it's side and recovers usually with no damage or downflooding if the hatches are closed. 

Now we are back to knockdown and inversion or capsize. Terminology also varies by nation.

I just dragged in some of Wolfstons early casualty analysis, including sailing coastal barges as well as offshore yachts that was pre 1998. This is the sort of casualty analysis you want to see presumably . There were also several other sources of data fro other countries used ( not shown).

The development of the code tied in with the ongoing research into sailboat stability in waves and causes of capsize by a variety of researchers.  

If the plots look a bit sparse it's because they are scientific papers, the only plots are the boats where full stability data was available and verified.

Going back to the S-H boats only one would have been allowed offshore under the MCA code. They added the S-H data later and haven't adjusted the line upward. It varies a bit from the STIX approach.

I just find it very interesting and quite a good rough guide.  But as I said the best indication of capsize resistance according to Barry Deakin is the RM curve from 100 to 130 degrees.

 

 

wolfston Casualty stability length limits prior .JPG

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13 hours ago, Panoramix said:

@MikeJohns, at the very least we need a title and a legend to understand a graph!

Sorry I thought it was self explanatory.

It’s simply: “Minimum range of stability required by code of practice. Showing casualties with fleet data. (Casualties symbols solid.)”

 

Fleet data is taken from events with good representative larger fleets and they plot capsizes against LPS.  

This is nothing radical about this type of analysis it’s bog standard Naval Architecture.

There’s another stability limit code developed this way by Wolfston/MCA for stability limits for sailing craft >24m. Even France uses that !

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Bizarre coincidence territory. An english guy Kevin Carr came to west Texas as a mechanic for Chapparral auto racing in the1980's. He also ref'd Rugby games, I was no. 8 on the local team. Eventually, after I'd started my own company, I hired him to maintain all my company vehicles through a business of his. Great guy.

It wasn't until I bought Sparky that he realized I was a sailor, too. Turned out at some point he'd worked yachts in Bermuda, but he started telling me tales about his younger cousin, Timmy. Hell, he had letters and pics. 

I've never met Tim, but I'd sure like to. One of the only guys alive I'd admit that about, because I'm not much of a fanboy. Real deal, he seems. Kev had a compelling reason Tim did all that remote sailing, but I'll stop there. Like Camp  4 at Yos, there's stories. 

Kev got cancer, bad deal. We took care of him when his insurance puked him up as a nuisance, not an asset, but  a lot of stuff just doesn't have a happy ending. 

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7 hours ago, MikeJohns said:

Sorry I thought it was self explanatory.

So what is a square or a triangle for Mr Obvious ?

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11 hours ago, Cruisin Loser said:

Bizarre coincidence territory.

Sunstone was mentioned over on another  thread.  Another wooden one that did huge voyages - S&S design centerboard skeg rudder - a bit similar to our first boat but a better design.

The coincidence here .  . . we knew Tom and Vicky pretty well for many years . . .  . . but one night at dinner I made a side mention of a school (very small - annual intake size around 20) I had been at, and Tom said 'Really!! I was there also". Turned out we were a few years apart, just enough not to know each other. But it was a real small world moment. 

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1 hour ago, estarzinger said:

Sunstone was mentioned over on another  thread.  Another wooden one that did huge voyages - S&S design centerboard skeg rudder - a bit similar to our first boat but a better design.

The coincidence here .  . . we knew Tom and Vicky pretty well for many years . . .  . . but one night at dinner I made a side mention of a school (very small - annual intake size around 20) I had been at, and Tom said 'Really!! I was there also". Turned out we were a few years apart, just enough not to know each other. But it was a real small world moment. 

In a world of 6.6 billion people, it does seem hard to believe. The theory of six degrees of separation contends that, because we are all linked by chains of acquaintance, you are just six introductions away from any other person on the planet.

But yesterday researchers announced the theory was right - nearly. By studying billions of electronic messages, they worked out that any two strangers are, on average, distanced by precisely 6.6 degrees of separation. In other words, putting fractions to one side, you are linked by a string of seven or fewer acquaintances to Madonna, the Dalai Lama and the Queen. The news will come as no surprise to film buffs who for years have been playing the parlour game Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon, in which they link other actors to Bacon in six films or fewer.

Researchers at Microsoft studied records of 30 billion electronic conversations among 180 million people in various countries, according to the Washington Post. This was 'the first time a planetary-scale social network has been available,' they observed. The database covered all the Microsoft Messenger instant-messaging network in June 2006, equivalent to roughly half the world's instant-messaging traffic at that time.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2008/aug/03/internet.email

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It's not even 6 if you consider social strata, geographic partitioning, etc. For many, it's probably closer to 5. If everyone is associated with 63 different people, a separation of 5 equates to 1 billion connections.

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38 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

n electronic conversations among 180 million people in various countries,  . . .  instant-messaging network in June 2006,

I guess this is a bit skewed? Because the circle of people on MS IM in 2006 would be rather more closely connected than the entire world's population. Was the 6.6 only among/in-between that MS IM population, or did they somehow extrapolate out beyond it to the less connected.

25 minutes ago, IStream said:

social strata, geographic partitioning, etc. 

yea, would be many 'tribes'; and many 'small world moments' would be within tribal boundaries.  That was certainly the case with Tim & I.

given that CL is a climber/sailor, It it is not too surprising he knew someone who knew Tim.  But his brother - that feels perhaps more like the birthday paradox, layered on top of network theory. 

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48 minutes ago, olaf hart said:

So if I have ten brothers and sisters, does that make my family well connected?

did you all married each other? Or did you branch out to marry the cousins?

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41 minutes ago, estarzinger said:

did you all married each other? Or did you branch out to marry the cousins?

We weren’t born in Tasmania…

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1 hour ago, olaf hart said:

We weren’t born in Tasmania…

At least Tasmanians stick to two legged creatures. Now the Kiwis..... 

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10 hours ago, estarzinger said:

I guess this is a bit skewed? Because the circle of people on MS IM in 2006 would be rather more closely connected than the entire world's population. Was the 6.6 only among/in-between that MS IM population, or did they somehow extrapolate out beyond it to the less connected.

yea, would be many 'tribes'; and many 'small world moments' would be within tribal boundaries.  That was certainly the case with Tim & I.

given that CL is a climber/sailor, It it is not too surprising he knew someone who knew Tim.  But his brother - that feels perhaps more like the birthday paradox, layered on top of network theory. 

I had one of those horror trips once where I spent about 40 hours travelling between three continents and 5 nations before arrival in a wee little South American airport at some god forsaken hour. I  grabbed my bag from the trolley, turned around and ran straight into my brothers ex girlfriend I hadn't seen for quite a few years. Turned out she had moved to London and was there with Unicef whilst I was there doing fibre optic training. 

Funny how the world works sometimes.  

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The first actual “vacation” I ever took (one of three, so far) I ended up on the beach in Christiansted, St. Croix.  I realized that I had no idea what the fuck one was supposed to DO on a vacation.  I sat down in a beach bar and ordered a multi-layer frozen juice and rum drink (A “Hugo” IIRC) and introduced myself to the only other person in the bar.  He turned out to be from the very same town, thousands of miles away, where I was currently “living.”  

“Well fuck!,” he said, “I didn’t come all this way to talk to someone from home!” And he stalked away.  I took my Hugo out to a beach chair and stared at the sea and drank rum.  

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There is this thing where if two Tasmanians meet anywhere in the world, a third Tasmanian turns up.

It has happened to us a couple of times…

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9 hours ago, olaf hart said:

There is this thing where if two Tasmanians meet anywhere in the world, a third Tasmanian turns up.

And they immediately start discussing who they know, finding out they're second cousins...

FKT

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9 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

And they immediately start discussing who they know, finding out they're second cousins...

FKT

Working in the Whitsundays on the charter maxis (that may've once had many desirable offshore characteristics) nearly 20 years ago, I got chatting to some Californian girls (who certainly had some desirable characteristics)... I said I was from Tasmania, and was asked if I knew Daniel. "Daniel? Daniel who?" "Oh, I can't remember, but my friend Audrey married a Tasmanian named Daniel." "You mean Dan? Dan P***, and Audrey?" "Yah, Daniel P***, that's him!" "Yeah I Used to share a house with him..."

Also, hungover in a Paris hostel, trying to gather my thoughts and possessions to catch a train to the Med, a familiar voice said my name behind me... a girl I had lived with, neither of us knew the other was traveling, let alone the country, or even continent, where the other may've been.

Desirable traits of Tasmanians, beside the scar on the neck....? 

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10 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

And they immediately start discussing who they know, finding out they're second cousins...

FKT

No surprise there, everyone down here is related…

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17 minutes ago, olaf hart said:

No surprise there, everyone down here is related…

Tell me about it, my long-term GF was born in Penguin and has relatives everywhere.

Fortunately I'm a blow-in mainlander and always will be even though I've been here for over 20 years now.

FKT

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1 minute ago, olaf hart said:

No surprise there, everyone down here is related…

 

On 5/28/2021 at 5:34 PM, Panoramix said:

So what is a square or a triangle for Mr Obvious ?

They are all sailing vessels. It gives you an idea of the scatter. The squares were private yachts the triangles were vessels designated as sail training vessels. They have a much larger database now. That's a pre 1998 version.

Deakin at Wolfston said at the time that the  S-H stability casualties matched their model well enough and that they might even consider adjusting the criteria upwards slightly after looking at the data a bit more closely. They didn't in the end.

Wolfston is the world leading research center for small sailing craft safety. Wolfston and the MCA code for seaworthiness is based entirely on LPS relative to boat length. They use stability as the basis for the code because they consider it the most important factor.  


 

 

 

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1 hour ago, olaf hart said:

No surprise there, everyone down here is related…

Some romote areas of Tas there are only 3 or 4 surnames. Some interesting rare genetic disorders were being studies by specialists when we came here 25 years ago.

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1 hour ago, MikeJohns said:

They are all sailing vessels. It gives you an idea of the scatter. The squares were private yachts the triangles were vessels designated as sail training vessels. They have a much larger database now. That's a pre 1998 version.

Not sure why you don't want to give us the title and the legend!

What's the difference between the triangles pointing up and down, what angle did they take for the "angle of stability" did the non casualties go through a storm ? Where and when did the " stability casualties" happened. The title and the legend would help a lot... These "angles of stability" seem high to me as typically smallish yachts AVS are between 110 and 140º, but then we don't even know what boats they were looking at and how they define "their angle of stability" from what you gave us!

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51 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

Not sure why you don't want to give us the title and the legend!

What's the difference between the triangles pointing up and down, what angle did they take for the "angle of stability" did the non casualties go through a storm ? Where and when did the " stability casualties" happened. The title and the legend would help a lot... These "angles of stability" seem high to me as typically smallish yachts AVS are between 110 and 140º, but then we don't even know what boats they were looking at and how they define "their angle of stability" from what you gave us!

Non casualties are in the same storms as the casualties, I did say that.  Squares are Yachts ( as in private sailing craft ). That's what we are interested in here.

Triangles up sail training vessels. Triangles down other sailing vessels. Hourglass symbols for two sailing barges.

The data is from the Southampton/Wolfston project the paper is from  Barry Deaken "The development of stability standards for UK for sailing vessels"  1990

Does that help ?

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2 hours ago, Panoramix said:

 

The vessels in the graph seem to be a 'representative sample of sailing vessels' that Wolfson had studied.  They do not appear to all have been in the same storm or conditions. So it is not at all the sort of statistical risk assessment Mike suggests it is.  

And I might note that despite Mike's prior assurances that only full inversions were considered stability incidents ('by professionals') there are 4 categories of stability incidents defined and analyzed here, and none of them use the 'full inversion' criteria..

I dont see that this is moving the discussion forward.

Regarding the thread topic, I personally would be interested in discussion around:

(1) The 'small intense hot spots' and how to best avoid or deal with them.  I think it is pretty clear that getting stuck/caught in such small intense hot spots is a contributing factor in quite a large number of incidents.  And that shit can go downhill really rapidly in them - faster than the sailors can really react. Seems like there would be useful discussion about tools and technique for spotting or predicting high probability of such hot spots. And for avoiding them (certainly different than the conventional rotating storm avoidance). And pre-emptive actions to take when you reach some probability of not being able to avoid (some of which actions the racers will hate . . . leading to the point 3).  This is an area where aviation has made some progress but less so for sailors.

(2) Wave shape is the key factor, much more so than size. Yet there is really very little useful about wave shape.  We know quite a bit about size distribution - so we can say generally with a 10m significant height 1 in 100 (so like every 20 minutes of exposure) will be 15m and 1 in a 1000 (so like every 3 or 4 hours of exposure) will be 19m. But that is actually not so useful. It is all fine if they are all nicely shaped and is terrible if there is a high mix of bad shapes. And particularly when running, you can be going fast and everything feels really good, until one bad shape catches you and everything goes to shit instantly. So we have a critical factor which we dont really have much information about and the fleet generally has very little experience with and little guidance about.  Would seem worthwhile to explore a bit.

(3) Racers ofc dont like to carry extra shit and ofc dont like to slow down them they dont absolutely need to.  This means they tend not to deploy storm gear (like series drogues - none were deployed in the Hobart, I might be wrong but I believe none were even carried) and tend to delay doing things which will reduce their vmg ( like course changes to suit the waves).  This all means the empirical data from races, which we all pour over, is arguably fundamentally skewed and not representative or indicative of potential best practices.  It is a bit like racing rating rules have on occasion injected undesirable characteristics into the fleet.  Racing approaches to storms injects undesirable skew into the empirical data.

(4) How you get cruising boats to sail better in light air and swell - and I mean the non-obvious ways like a taller stick and a cleaner bottom.  There is a ton more light air than breaking waves, and in swell there can actually be quite a bit of fatigue damage done to a boat that can not sail and just rolls.

 

 

TheDevelopmentofStabilityStandardsforUKSailingVessels.pdf

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6 hours ago, estarzinger said:

(4) How you get cruising boats to sail better in light air and swell - and I mean the non-obvious ways like a taller stick and a cleaner bottom.  There is a ton more light air than breaking waves, and in swell there can actually be quite a bit of fatigue damage done to a boat that can not sail and just rolls.

  • Low drag running gear.  A feathering, or better yet a folding prop.  A retractable system would be best of all.
  • In small boats, getting the boat to heel to leeward helps a lot by getting some shape into the sails.  That's hard to scale up to a 35 or 40 footer, though. Water ballast or other forms of moveable ballast might help here, as well as help the boat stand-up to a larger rig when the breeze is up.  Does anyone know what the various classes with moveable ballast do in the really light stuff?
  • In flat conditions upwind, a very low area, high aspect ratio keel is probably ideal.  In a swell or left-over chop, the keel will invariably get stalled occasionally.  A keel with more area might be more effective at preventing leeway.
  • high aspect ratio rig to get as much of the sail area up high as possible.
  • A large crew: keeping a boat moving well in light air takes more attention and care than in a moderate breeze.

These are mostly 2nd order effects, though.  A big rig and minimal skin friction dominate the picture.  It's not so hard to build a light air monster, the problem is making that boat workable when the breeze is up.

A large sailplan is great in the light stuff, but to make it workable it needs to be able to "change gears" effectively.  So ironically, I think well thought out reefing systems and sail inventories matter a lot for making the "light air rig" workable the rest of the time. The growth in popularity of Code 0's and similar sails seems to have helped a lot with this.

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9 minutes ago, MFH125 said:
  •   It's not so hard to build a light air monster, the problem is making that boat workable when the breeze is up.

yes, that was exactly where I was at.

And I think perhaps that's the priority - first light air monster, second compromises and set-up necessary to make it more generally usable.  Which is really the opposite of how they (cruising boats) are often approached.

Do you end up narrow or wide beam for the light air monster? For the same displacement, which gives you less wetted surface - narrow I guess?  But wide probably handles the swell better, sails more stable?

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I am inclined to take a different approach, sometimes shit just happens.

To my mind, trained on clinical and epidemiological data, nearly all the data sets here are so weak that it is advisable to prepare for the worst.

It’s like a screening test with a high rate of false positives or false negatives, worse than useless as it lulls people into a false sense of security and they don’t consider and prepare for a knockdown or rollover.

 

 

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1 hour ago, olaf hart said:

sometimes shit just happens.

l the data sets here are so weak 

 prepare for a knockdown or rollover.

In reverse order . . . 

I think pretty much anyone here with offshore experience would suggest you do what you can to prepare for knock down/rollover. There is the standard OSR sort of stuff - make sure the heavy things (engine, batteries, stove, etc) can hang upside down without breaking free, latches on sole and cupboards which can hold against the interior contents. There is the harder stuff - boats thrown on their sides by breaking waves often break the coach roof and often blow in windows - some of that can be beefed up effectively and some is just up to picking a well engineered boat.  And then there is the rig . . . probably going to come off in a violent roll, so thinking ahead of time about jerry rig is useful.  We did some things to our mast to pretty much insure we would have a decent size stump left to work with.

Yea the data is weak.  It is why experience and mentor's are so important in this activity.

I am torn in the Luck vs Skill debate.  Personally I generally lean toward skill being the rather more important of the two. There is ofc an element of luck and shit happens, but the skilled first minimize those moments and second will have war gamed plan C in their heads so that the cascade of shit is minimized.  And ofc there is sometimes really shit luck which just overwhelms even great skills, but my personal sense/opinion is that is really quite rare.  I appreciate this is debatable opinion and not 'fact'. There are a load of seamen who have an absolute ton of deep blue miles, often off season or the wrong way, who always deliver the boat, usually looking better than when it left, and just never have 'significant incidents'.  They either have have the very best luck every time (real tail of the distribution sort of outcomes), or the skills to pretty consistently manage their bad luck to acceptable outcomes.

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4 minutes ago, estarzinger said:

In reverse order . . . 

I think pretty much anyone here with offshore experience would suggest you do what you can to prepare for knock down/rollover. There is the standard OSR sort of stuff - make sure the heavy things (engine, batteries, stove, etc) can hang upside down without breaking free, latches on sole and cupboards which can hold against the interior contents. There is the harder stuff - boats thrown on their sides by breaking waves often break the coach roof and often blow in windows - some of that can be beefed up effectively and some is just up to picking a well engineered boat.  And then there is the rig . . . probably going to come off in a violent roll, so thinking ahead of time about jerry rig is useful.  We did some things to our mast to pretty much insure we would have a decent size stump left to work with.

Yea the data is weak.  It is why experience and mentor's are so important in this activity.

I am torn in the Luck vs Skill debate.  Personally I generally lean toward skill being the rather more important of the two. There is ofc an element of luck and shit happens, but the skilled first minimize those moments and second will have war gamed plan C in their heads so that the cascade of shit is minimized.  And ofc there is sometimes really shit luck which just overwhelms even great skills, but my personal sense/opinion is that is really quite rare.  I appreciate this is debatable opinion and not 'fact'. There are a load of seamen who have an absolute ton of deep blue miles, often off season or the wrong way, who always deliver the boat, usually looking better than when it left, and just never have 'significant incidents'.  They either have have the very best luck every time (6 sigma sort), or the skills to pretty consistently manage their bad luck to acceptable outcomes.

Waterline solves a lot of these issues.

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20 minutes ago, Bryanjb said:

Waterline solves a lot of these issues.

yes, it does - gives you both longer legs and (generally) greater capsize resistance.

It does bring with it some other compromises.

And I personally generally consider your size to be too big for me, but I appreciate and respect your ability to deal with it.

Even with size, I think we can agree that proper roll 'preparation' is good seamanship. And that better skill/knowledge/experience can help you avoid and minimize bad luck.

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38 minutes ago, Bryanjb said:

Waterline solves a lot of these issues.

Yeah sure - provided you've got really deep pockets to pay the yard bills while someone else does all the work on your boat.

As I'm currently working on mine, I can assure you that I really don't want to personally apply 2x or 4x the antifoul or overhaul much larger & heavier equipment. And paying someone else to do a worse job than I'll do myself really isn't going to happen.

FKT

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9 minutes ago, estarzinger said:

yes, it does - gives you both longer legs and (generally) greater capsize resistance.

It does bring with it some other compromises.

And I personally generally consider your size to be too big for me, but I appreciate and respect your ability to deal with it.

Even with size, I think we can agree that proper roll 'preparation' is good seamanship. And that better skill/knowledge/experience can help you avoid and minimize bad luck.

I agree completely with your comments, our boat is certainly not the right boat for everyone.  That's why they print wallpaper right, we're all different.

But that said, there is allot of old waterline that can be bought very reasonably, like a Swan 61 for $300k.  These are great values, great boats, that obviously have a higher carrying cost but maybe not as high as the depreciation of a new production type boat?  I'm comfortable saying an older Swan is a better built boat then a newer Hanse, the Hanse owner probably feels differently.  That's ok, we can agree to disagree.

At the end of the day we all sail what were comfortable with, a 61' boat feels the right size to us and it gives us the performance and comfort we want.  Would we go larger?  I would but I'm only half the equation.  Would we go smaller?  No way, we're fully in agreement there.

One of the best things about cruising is getting to meet and talk about these things with sailors with lots of time and experience.  It would have been great to meet you in a cruising ground somewhere.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Yeah sure - provided you've got really deep pockets to pay the yard bills while someone else does all the work on your boat.

As I'm currently working on mine, I can assure you that I really don't want to personally apply 2x or 4x the antifoul or overhaul much larger & heavier equipment. And paying someone else to do a worse job than I'll do myself really isn't going to happen.

FKT

I sanded or bottom last year to prep for new bottom paint.  There little I don't do myself if I have the time.  

Is our cost higher then a smaller boat?  Yes but again you can change your own oil, service pumps, wax the hull or even repaint it if that is in your wheelhouse.

We've met many cruisers running older 60~80' yachts out cruising to think we are an anomaly.  I really liked Falcon 2000, lovely boat and couple.  

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55 minutes ago, estarzinger said:

There is ofc an element of luck and shit happens, but the skilled first minimize those moments and second will have war gamed plan C in their heads so that the cascade of shit is minimized.

This. Almost every day on a passage I was thinking what if we sprung a leak/lost a rudder (again)/lost a shroud etc etc. My wife didn't like it - suggested I was a bit pessimistic all the time when I role played these out loud. 

This actually helped my daughter; she had seen her parents troubleshoot lots of boat issues and did see plan A,B, and C fall through.

She went to her last 2 years of high school in Swaziland (southern Africa). For an extended school break she and friend decided to go from school to Victoria Falls, Zambia then Botswana and Namibia. When the bus from Botswana to Namibia got cancelled (Plan A), they planned to backtrack into Pretoria, SA, and catch a flight (Plan B ). The flight got cancelled so they took mini-buses across a good stretch of the Khalahari desert, hitchhiked with a truck driver (arrgh), and taxi to the border. This was referred to by her parents as (Plan WTF.)

image.thumb.png.54d3e8c24c9ad132f247d85ba9d6c81a.png

I also think the skilled skippers are those people who really pay attention to the weather and try to minimize risk.

They manage fatigue as best they can, and have snacks and easy to prepare food handy.

They keep the boat moving in an uncomfortable manner for a few days, if it positions them for a shift in the weather or avoids a bad patch of low pressure. 

The less skilled ones are the ones that let the weather overtake them without taking any preventative action.

 

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21 hours ago, estarzinger said:

The vessels in the graph seem to be a 'representative sample of sailing vessels' that Wolfson had studied.  They do not appear to all have been in the same storm or conditions. So it is not at all the sort of statistical risk assessment Mike suggests it is.  

And I might note that despite Mike's prior assurances that only full inversions were considered stability incidents ('by professionals') there are 4 categories of stability incidents defined and analyzed here, and none of them use the 'full inversion' criteria..

 

 

There's only really one category relevant to yachts (sailboats) in that plot and that's breaking wave induced capsize. The other categories are for barges and tall ships. Capsize is inversion, It's a complete loss of reserve stability resulting in the vessel inverting.

That's not Wolfston's current data set. Just an early version that's in the public domain and illustrative of the general process.

There are a lot of very similar plots that do state surviving vessels and casualties I might be wrong in this one but they are all similar enough. 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Zonker said:

I also think the skilled skippers are those people who really pay attention to the weather and try to minimize risk......

The less skilled ones are the ones that let the weather overtake them without taking any preventative action.

 

Operational area plays a large part in whether this is possible even in ships. A lot of areas are forecast on a coarse grid and accuracy is mediocre when the weather gets more severe. The Tasman Sea is a good example.

We get the lows from the S.O. They can be vast and moving at close to 50 knots and very hard to predict what shape they'll be after encountering Mountainous Terrain.

 

 

 

 

 

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It’s also difficult to avoid bad weather when you have fronts crossing from the southern ocean every two to three days and limited roadstead anchorages on the northeastern Tasmanian coast and Bass Strait.

Not to mention the West Coast.

Round here you will regularly experience heavy weather regardless of how carefully you passage plan..

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34 minutes ago, olaf hart said:

Round here you will regularly experience heavy weather regardless of how carefully you passage plan..

sure, but . . . 

 'heavy weather' is not the same as 'survival conditions'.  'heavy weather' is (generally, short of some exceptional rip current or shallow bar or such) quite manageable with some care and attention, and good practice.

 

and, yea, as you know, I have sailed round there (and around most places around the world noted for hard weather) - really your distances are not long - good planning (and no external schedule) generally gets you in a nice anchorage. Only times I was not was (1) intentional - some sail testing in storm bay and (2) on non-stop from perth to tasi when we had some breeze as I approached Port Davey.

I am no expert on tasi and all its ins and outs and potential pitfalls, but I did not see any thing suggesting I needed to pray to the gods for good luck and kiss my ass goodby :)

 I will tell you it is a known joke that everywhere a cruiser goes, the locals think their weather and sailing is 'the most dangerous'.  If you get a drink at a YC bar that is almost the first thing you are told everytime, everywhere.  I understand it because most places do have some specific hazard or other, and they have lost people . . . but it just seems like sailing to us.

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1 hour ago, MikeJohns said:

Operational area plays a large part in whether this is possible even in ships. A lot of areas are forecast on a coarse grid and accuracy is mediocre when the weather gets more severe. The Tasman Sea is a good example.

We get the lows from the S.O. They can be vast and moving at close to 50 knots and very hard to predict what shape they'll be after encountering Mountainous Terrain.

 

 

 

 

 

In those regions it best to plan short legs that fit inside local weather windows 

all seamanship is about avoiding trouble 

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3 hours ago, estarzinger said:

 

 I will tell you it is a known joke that everywhere a cruiser goes, the locals think their weather and sailing is 'the most dangerous'.  If you get a drink at a YC bar that is almost the first thing you are told everytime, everywhere.  I understand it because most places do have some specific hazard or other, and they have lost people . . . but it just seems like sailing to us.

Understood. Up here in the Salish Sea we get in the summer what Bob Perry described as "Three knots, gusting to zero."

Brutal.

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4 hours ago, Autonomous said:

 "Three knots, gusting to zero."

Brutal.

Yea :)

It is fun when it is delivered with a bit of cheek or irony. In Kinsale (ireland) I was told 'we are happy the weather is so bad here because it keeps the Germans away'.

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9 hours ago, estarzinger said:

sure, but . . . 

 'heavy weather' is not the same as 'survival conditions'.  'heavy weather' is (generally, short of some exceptional rip current or shallow bar or such) quite manageable with some care and attention, and good practice.

 

and, yea, as you know, I have sailed round there (and around most places around the world noted for hard weather) - really your distances are not long - good planning (and no external schedule) generally gets you in a nice anchorage. Only times I was not was (1) intentional - some sail testing in storm bay and (2) on non-stop from perth to tasi when we had some breeze as I approached Port Davey.

I am no expert on tasi and all its ins and outs and potential pitfalls, but I did not see any thing suggesting I needed to pray to the gods for good luck and kiss my ass goodby :)

 I will tell you it is a known joke that everywhere a cruiser goes, the locals think their weather and sailing is 'the most dangerous'.  If you get a drink at a YC bar that is almost the first thing you are told everytime, everywhere.  I understand it because most places do have some specific hazard or other, and they have lost people . . . but it just seems like sailing to us.

Most cruising sailors rarely if ever venture out of the range between say 35 N & S. OK in the northern hemisphere they often start north of that and rapidly head to the warmer zones.

I know you've been in the high latitudes so this isn't aimed at you, it's just a general observation.

Not to mention staying in a secure anchorage when the weather is looking shit. That can mean 2-3 weeks if you go to Port Davey before you get out again, or hanging in Recerche Bay waiting to *get* to Port Davey.

I'm undoubtedly biased because we left port when the schedule said we were leaving port regardless of the weather and even on a decent sized ship, we got beaten up a lot. One notable example, it was usually around 3 days to get to Macquarie Island, this voyage it took nearly 6 because even in a 100m ship, we couldn't lay a decent course and we couldn't run at usual transit speed. Things were shit before we even got to the bottom of Bruny Island in Storm Bay.

Many years ago I spent a lot of time working on small ships, mainly fishing vessels, in the Arafura Sea and the Kimberley coast/NW Shelf area. We were there to work so went where we had to go according to the schedule. Even in the cyclone season, unless there was one, the winds and sea state was a lot more moderate than down here.

FKT

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1 minute ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Most cruising sailors ......

That can mean 2-3 weeks if you go to Port Davey before you get out again

 

I hear you.  

I apologize if I sounded over-bearing or 'know-it-all'. 

I know you, among other places do get actual weather. I see it as something a skilled sailor just has to anticipate and plan for, rather than something to leave to 'luck'.  I do recognize that I am fortunate to have essentially endless time to wait and no schedule to keep except for cyclone seasons (essentially the opposites of a working seaman like yourself).  But if you are going to be a sailor in Tasi, or the Faroes or Patingona, quick changes and strong conditions is simply to be expected as a natural part of the sailing environment - part of the 'necessary skill package' is such places is being able to deal with that (anticipate and mitigate and endure).  Like coral reef navigation needs to be part of the skill package in some places and breaking river bar entrances in other places and huge currents in other places.

And yea on the 'most cruising sailor . . . ' point - probably true of most human endeavors - 95% dont challenge themselves all that much and dont develop much experience or skills, and generally that works fine for them. A few constantly operate over their head and dont learn from it and just rely on luck to get by, but mostly that gets terminated one way or another.  There is an awkward moment for people who have been in the 95% and then get ambitious and take off for more challenging experiences.  They can get in over their heads before their skills and experience level catches up . . . and in that window luck plays a real role.  I know our very first ocean crossing was definitely in that camp.

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If you watched Dylan Winter's adventures in a Centaur in the northern parts of Scotland,  you noticed how frequently he was windbound in port for three days at a time.

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2 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Not to mention staying in a secure anchorage when the weather is looking shit. That can mean 2-3 weeks if you go to Port Davey before you get out again, or hanging in Recerche Bay waiting to *get* to Port Davey.

I wouldn't know, because in 4 attempts I've never made it to Port Davey. Spent a good chunk of time at Recherche Bay, and even ended up in Stanley once. Closest I got was being dropped on the beach at Cox's Bight and walking out.

Does not managing to make it some where point to good seamanship or cowardice? :-)

But coming from Tas, I have been stunned by some of the barges that are considered sea worthy in SE Asia. One trip we were to be at sea for a couple of weeks in an old trawler style boat I wouldn't have crossed from Dover to Brunty on. But it was fine for that place and time.

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3 hours ago, estarzinger said:

A few constantly operate over their head and dont learn from it and just rely on luck to get by, but mostly that gets terminated one way or another.  There is an awkward moment for people who have been in the 95% and then get ambitious and take off for more challenging experiences.  They can get in over their heads before their skills and experience level catches up . . . and in that window luck plays a real role. 

It is probably a well known saying, I knew a glider instructor who said you start with two cups, one is Luck and it is full, the other is Experience and it is empty. Your job is to fill up the Experience cup before the Luck one goes dry.  

Nevertheless, I believe that luck heavily favors the prepared. 

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On 5/30/2021 at 5:17 PM, estarzinger said:

Even with size, I think we can agree that proper roll 'preparation' is good seamanship. And that better skill/knowledge/experience can help you avoid and minimize bad luck.

John Vigor’s book, “The Seaworthy Offshore Sailboat”, has a nice little sidebar in each chapter entitled “Think Inverted”, where he outlines roll ‘preparation’ - various considerations in case the boat goes past 90*.  It’s good for those who’ve never “gone down that road” in their minds.  Oriented towards smaller boats, likely, not 60’ gin palaces :-)    (He also has what he calls “the Black Box theory” (link), a way to conceptualize luck/preparation/seamanship.)

 

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2 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

John Vigor’s book, “The Seaworthy Offshore Sailboat”, has a nice little sidebar in each chapter entitled “Think Inverted”, where he outlines roll ‘preparation’ - various considerations in case the boat goes past 90*.  It’s good for those who’ve never “gone down that road” in their minds.  Oriented towards smaller boats, likely, not 60’ gin palaces :-)    (He also has what he calls “the Black Box theory” (link), a way to conceptualize luck/preparation/seamanship.)

 

I think that's a very underappreciated book. 

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15 hours ago, estarzinger said:

 if you are going to be a sailor in Tasi, or the Faroes or Patingona, quick changes and strong conditions is simply to be expected as a natural part of the sailing environment - part of the 'necessary skill package' is such places is being able to deal with that (anticipate and mitigate and endure).  Like coral reef navigation needs to be part of the skill package in some places and breaking river bar entrances in other places and huge currents in other places.

And yea on the 'most cruising sailor . . . ' point - probably true of most human endeavors - 95% dont challenge themselves all that much and dont develop much experience or skills, and generally that works fine for them. A few constantly operate over their head and dont learn from it and just rely on luck to get by, but mostly that gets terminated one way or another.  There is an awkward moment for people who have been in the 95% and then get ambitious and take off for more challenging experiences.  They can get in over their heads before their skills and experience level catches up . . . and in that window luck plays a real role.  I know our very first ocean crossing was definitely in that camp.

Which is why many of us come here to learn from those with the experience and willingness and ability to pass it on - from a large variety of skill sets and backgrounds.

I’ve finally got my new, longer boom installed.  Need to measure for mainsheet tonight. Sail will arrive in a week or two maybe?  Meanwhile, I need to dive on the bottom to finish clearing off 6 months of growth, finish assembling my new anchor roller assembly (required b/c the new 20kg Rocna, purchased a year ago to replace the snagged/lost 20kg Bruce, chopped into the bow on the existing too-close-to-then-stem roller assembly.). Time to go sailing, whether short of long distance, is always in incredibly short supply - whether it’s lack of time b/c of work, or lack of time on a daily/weekly basis b/c of ongoing projects to do.  (The kid has just graduated high school so that’ll theoretically free up some time?)

So I come here to live —and learn— vicariously! :-). I still need to sort out the details of a decent —easy to set and douse— light air sail rig.  I’m trying to figure out what I can do in the time off I have this summer to push my learning boundaries.  The boat, never perfect, is now more on the side of desirable (vs. undesirable) at least, and improving daily... :-)

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1 hour ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

John Vigor’s book, “The Seaworthy Offshore Sailboat”, has a nice little sidebar in each chapter entitled “Think Inverted”, where he outlines roll ‘preparation’ - various considerations in case the boat goes past 90*.  It’s good for those who’ve never “gone down that road” in their minds.  Oriented towards smaller boats, likely, not 60’ gin palaces :-)    (He also has what he calls “the Black Box theory” (link), a way to conceptualize luck/preparation/seamanship.)

 

I like this theory!

It is always the same boats who get to count horror stories. At the other end of the bar there is the quiet guy who modestly say "we found ourselves in the path of this bad thunderstorm which made the news, but we got lucky and managed to get the main in 2 minutes before the big gust hit us", he didn't get lucky, he just keep his boat ready all the time and even if one day he gets hit by the mother of all wave/gust, somehow he will manage to limp back home as crew and boat were super ready and knowledgeable!

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16 hours ago, SemiSalt said:

If you watched Dylan Winter's adventures in a Centaur in the northern parts of Scotland,  you noticed how frequently he was windbound in port for three days at a time.

Patience is an underrated skill.  You need to be able to relax and not stress and wait just long enough and then go, if you wait too long hoping it will get even more perfect then often it cycles to worse and you have to start waiting all over.

2 hours ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

 The boat, never perfect, is now more on the side of desirable (vs. undesirable) at least, and improving daily... :-)

It has unfortunately become almost a meaningless business buzz phrase, but the mindset of continuous learning and continuous improvement is also an under appreciated skill.  I would much rather hire someone who knows a little less today but shows that learning/improvement capability in spades.

I'm not sure how 'teachable' either patience or learning is. Clearly there is room for most people to grow on both, but they also seem to require some personality traits which are reasonably deep seated.  Most of the successful couples I have known cruising complemented each other - like one was the gung-ho 'we go adventure today' and the other was the careful 'lets check everything twice'.  And you need both.  You need the first to ever leave the dock, and you need the second to not sink and die.

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On 5/31/2021 at 10:54 PM, olaf hart said:

...

Round here you will regularly experience heavy weather regardless of how carefully you passage plan..

 

There's one condition worth mentioning locally:

Bass strait proper is particularly treacherous when there's a  low in the Australian Bight blocked by a high over the mainland. 

The low is stationary and King Island acts as a double slot interference  mechanism. Two sets of waves out of phase with the same amplitude arrive in the strait around 120 degrees apart.

The wind is moderate, there's no gale warning and the low is forecast to get pushed south. Warm winds and clear skies give perfect wind conditions for leaving Melbourne  heading for Tas. But the sea state in localized areas is dangerous for small vessels. 

This isn't in the sailing guides, only local knowledge that you stay out of the strait with a stationary low to the west.

 

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54 minutes ago, MikeJohns said:

 

There's one condition worth mentioning locally:

Bass strait proper is particularly treacherous when there's a  low in the Australian Bight blocked by a high over the mainland. 

The low is stationary and King Island acts as a double slot interference  mechanism. Two sets of waves out of phase with the same amplitude arrive in the strait around 120 degrees apart.

The wind is moderate, there's no gale warning and the low is forecast to get pushed south. Warm winds and clear skies give perfect wind conditions for leaving Melbourne  heading for Tas. But the sea state in localized areas is dangerous for small vessels. 

This isn't in the sailing guides, only local knowledge that you stay out of the strait with a stationary low to the west.

 

Yep, I have a friend who did a 360 in his steel Nereia when he was hit by a rogue wave round there…

 I haven’t seen one when we have been round there,  but I always head east from Melbourne, never south.

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On 5/31/2021 at 9:59 PM, estarzinger said:

Yea :)

It is fun when it is delivered with a bit of cheek or irony. In Kinsale (ireland) I was told 'we are happy the weather is so bad here because it keeps the Germans away'.

The owner of a yacht charter business there told me that it wasn't unusual for him to collect his customers at Cork airport on a Friday, bring them to the boats moored at the Trident Hotel, come back on Monday to bring them back to the airport, only to find that they had never left Kinsale because of the plethora of fine dining and drinking establishments there.

Fine with him; no usage on the running gear of the boats. Happy customers, happy natives, all good.

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1 minute ago, Black Sox said:

The owner of a yacht charter business there told me that it wasn't unusual for him to collect his customers at Cork airport on a Friday, bring them to the boats moored at the Trident Hotel, come back on Monday to bring them back to the airport, only to find that they had never left Kinsale because of the plethora of fine dining and drinking establishments there.

Fine with him; no usage on the running gear of the boats. Happy customers, happy natives, all good.

Long ago my slip was at the end of a long dock. More than one Sunday I never made it all the way out to my slip. That is the social power of adult beverages.

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44 minutes ago, Black Sox said:

 never left Kinsale

Kinsale was actually truly marvelous in the winter.

In the summer it was a tourist trap - a nice one, but still all fake.

In the winter 85% of it shut down, but what was left was really terrifically local - get to meet and dance and sing and drink with real people.

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54 minutes ago, estarzinger said:

Kinsale was actually truly marvelous in the winter.

In the summer it was a tourist trap - a nice one, but still all fake.

In the winter 85% of it shut down, but what was left was really terrifically local - get to meet and dance and sing and drink with real people.

Never had the chance to know the winter version of Kinsale but the summer one was fine by my standards! Most coastal places are at least a bit fake as they tend to become too expensive for the locals. it is worse in Devon and Cornwall IMHO. I wouldn't mind touring Ireland during the winter though to take the time to meet the locals, once in Cork we stupidly broke an antenna while docking, went to the shipchandler to find a replacemtn, they hadn't one and a guy who was around offered to give us a lift to some industrial estate in the outskirts of the city to get one. He was right they had one and I think that it sums up Ireland. TBH, I really want one day to take my bike and pedal round Ireland, IME it is the best transport mean to actually socialise with the locals.

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