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Which Class will replace the offshore double hander in Olympics


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The IOC has finally woken up and realized that World Sailing has proposed an Olympic Class/Discipline without an existing world championship ,  exclusive and expensive to participate in for those outside of the wealthiest nations and problematic from TV Coverage.

Its a shame because media coverage probably could have been amazing.

This is not the thread to debate the pros and cons of the offshore double handed discipline.

Instead let this thread look at the alternatives . If the offshore event is thrown out.....what can it be replaced with?

Sailing gets 10 classes.

The 10 classes are currently dispersed among 4 major categories of sailing

1. Dinghies/skiffs -5

2. Multihulls - 1

3. Board- 3

4. Keelboat -1

I think the dinghy /skiffs are in good shape with men and women single hander, men and women double hander and a mixed double hander. Dinghies do not need an additional class.  It is the heart of competitive sailing, accessible to most nations and relates to mainstream of the sport so it is right that dinghies/skiffs should account for 50% of the disciplines.

Mixed multihull is doing well attracting good teams. There should always be a multihull discipline.

Boards are a growth area in sailing. I disagree with the allotment of 2 to windsurfers and only 1 to kitesailing, I would make it the other way around.  The discipline is difficult to set up as mixed so I would prefer to see a Mens and womens kite boarding. The sport could easly become the most exciting to watch in all the summer olympics and re-establish sailing's importance in the Olympics. It deserves at least 3 slots and in the future should include freestyle. However I cannot see reducing the other categories so unless IOC is so wowed by kite boarding that it gives an additional slot, its 3. 

Keelboats.  There is a real risk that if the offshore discipline is dropped, the keelboat slot gets allocated to either dinghies or boards.  I think this would be a grave error. Keelboat racing is one of the largest and most important categories of the sport in the real world. Sailing olympics without keelboats would be like distance running without the marathon.  inshore short course keelboat racing overstayed its welcome with the Star......a magnificent boat but dated (in the olympics since 1932).   I would like to see WS have  a back up plan in case the offshore event is terminated and offer an alternate modern keelboat for inshore racing. A 2 or 3 person mized gender sportboat like the RS21, VX One, Viper, or something similar.  A modern equivalent of the  Tempest.

Thoughts?

Another dinghy?

Another board?

Another multihull?

Or preserve one discipline in keelboat racing

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Get sailing out of the olympics and nobody will notice.

Get sailing out of the Olympics and sailing will improve.

Diversification is the key. I recommend a 3 person Keel boat with a crew that reflects the ethnic religious and sexual diversity of our modern society. Each of the three crew must be from a different

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What monohull big boats fleets exist that have enough class structure to race internationally?

Mini, IMOCA and Class 40 come to mind.

Would really like to hear Burling and Tuke's answer (written would be better) to your question.

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If Paralympic Sailing is any indication of the future of Olympic Sailing... ..................... Sailing may actually get better, grow and find it's roots.

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I don't really understand the star being dropped. So what if it was designed a long time ago? The Tempest was a flop. Speedy semi-dinghies aren't "keelboats." Not to me. Having raced on the same course with Vipers, I will tell you that they are ballast assisted dinghies.

The cool thing about the star was the combination of utter brutality with extreme tweak. There is really nothing else like it. And it was a perfect platform for older skippers. As a former star crew, I can tell you it is sometimes brutal.

And, perhaps importantly, the star did not suffer from Olympic Destruction Syndrome. All the others did. Even the laser is freaking ruined compared to before. The star actually benefitted. Strange that. Who sails a soling? Hahahaha. (OK yeah I know there were a few "pockets" of them...)

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The IOC wants an established event and gender equality. Its hard to see past the 470 going back to M and F medals. 

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53 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

I don't really understand the star being dropped. So what if it was designed a long time ago? The Tempest was a flop. Speedy semi-dinghies aren't "keelboats." Not to me. Having raced on the same course with Vipers, I will tell you that they are ballast assisted dinghies.

The cool thing about the star was the combination of utter brutality with extreme tweak. There is really nothing else like it. And it was a perfect platform for older skippers. As a former star crew, I can tell you it is sometimes brutal.

And, perhaps importantly, the star did not suffer from Olympic Destruction Syndrome. All the others did. Even the laser is freaking ruined compared to before. The star actually benefitted. Strange that. Who sails a soling? Hahahaha. (OK yeah I know there were a few "pockets" of them...)

 

Totally agree with you fast. 

 

While slow and old, there is no other boat like the star. A decent boat can be had for under 10K, and all fleets will go out of their way to help newbies enter the class. From a fleet perspective, there is NO other class that allows you to be on the same line with the legends of the sport. Easy to film, proper sailboat racing, decently strong class (and working on making it stronger) all over the world.

 

Cons:  Lacks the "adrenaline" of the faster classes (to a TV non sailor viewer), it's not a female friendly boat.

 

If we are looking at the IOC/olympics to breath life back into sailing, we are on the wrong side of the course. 

 

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If they're looking for an established class, why not something like a J 70 or similar?

I'm thinking parameters ought to be:

Under 30 feet, trailerable & shippable 

Crew of 3-5, plumbed however you please 

Planing sprit boat

Non-carbon rig & sails to keep campaign costs down and keep focus on the fundamentals of sailboat racing - boatspeed, boathandling and tactics

Probably an inshore W/L course - easier logistically and easier media coverage

 

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4 minutes ago, TJSoCal said:

If they're looking for an established class, why not something like a J 70 or similar?

 

Non-carbon rig & sails to keep campaign costs down and keep focus on the fundamentals of sailboat racing - boatspeed, boathandling and tactics

 

 

 

All J70's have a carbon rig... Have you ever tried maintaining a team of 3-5 for the years that it takes to properly have a go at a campaign? 

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I think the whole concept of a keelboat at the Olympics is at risk.

WS has managed to evolve the dinghy , multihull and board classes, albeit slowly.     

Offshore two handed was a brilliant idea but very difficult to introduce as a new Olympic sport.     It checks too few of the boxes.

Due to athlete limits, it must likely need to be no more than 2 person. Due to gender equality it almost certainly has to be mixed gender. 
 

woth clean sheet of paper, you would not come up with Star
 

 


 

 

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10 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

Boards are a growth area in sailing.

 

Are they? Kiteboards peaked 15 years ago around here. If there's a growth area in sailing at all at present, it's foiling dinghies.

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1 hour ago, dogwatch said:

 

Are they? Kiteboards peaked 15 years ago around here. If there's a growth area in sailing at all at present, it's foiling dinghies.

So do you think a one design moth would create a meaningful Olympic discipline?

It is a valid suggestion. The moth world championships seem to attract some of the worlds very best sailors. The Olympic competition would be rewarding true sailor athletes. It is reasonably affordable. It would not put pressure on the number of competitors.

 

What would the moth replace?

There are  two options:

Replace the keelboat. Should the Olympics exclude a keelboat discipline for the first time since 1900 (2nd olympics)?  

Replace one of the board classes  (racing windsurfers around courses is increasingly irrelevant)

2024 is too short notice to disrupt existing classes but I think windsurfing has to be under pressure for 2028.

If offshore event is ditched then Moth might be a class that could be ready by 2024 (which is very close)

One important factor is the time line.Only 3 years away, it will be hard to get a new class and athletes identified if WS strays too far into new ground

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For 2024, replace the keelboat. It is clear that IOC doesn't want it and the Stars seem to be getting by fine without being an Olympic class.

 

Criteria from https://www.sailing.org/news/90896.php and I'd love to hear the Star proponents explain how it goes along with gender equality or universality.

Any late submission must be in the respect of the replacement event only (and not any associated Regulatory changes) and the alternative event proposal must adhere to criteria framework provided by the IOC which is outlined below:

1. Align with Olympic Agenda 2020+5, including relevance to the youth, innovation, universality and participation of the best athletes
2. Keep full gender equality on both number of events and athlete quotas (e.g. alternative mixed-gender events or split of currently approved mixed events into men's and women's events)
3. Prioritise universality and maximise the accessibility of the sport
4. Should have been previously tested at the respective World Championships organised by World Sailing
5. Should not cause an increase of the overall cost and complexity for the Paris 2024 Organising Committee, National Olympic Committees and/or National Federations, specifically in the direct comparison with the sailing programme, as a whole, in Tokyo 2020
6. Use of existing venues/Fields of Play

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10 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

For 2024, replace the keelboat. It is clear that IOC doesn't want it and the Stars seem to be getting by fine without being an Olympic class.

It is clear IOC doesn't want the offshore event. 

In hindsight, the event was not checking the boxes with IOC and the advocates for the event within WS ignored the warning signals.

On the plus side, it offered gender equality.  I also think IOC underestimates the media opportunity because they view in solely through the eyes of TV rights . I suspect it could have been an interesting streaming event with a tracker on each boat , a streaming boat cam and coverage of start and finish.  But the IOC probably does not want to distract its media organization with such a custom coverage for one event.

On the negative side, it was very expensive and exclusive. Complicated to cover. IOC is asking, where is the existing competition? Who are the world champions? etc.

The star has evolved post Olympics into something sustainable and probably doesnt need to go back.

It will be interesting to see what WS chooses to replace the event with

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13 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

In hindsight, the event was not checking the boxes with IOC and the advocates for the event within WS ignored the warning signals.

I am not one of those who likes to throw rocks at WS at all opportunities but in this instance, the warning signals were abundantly clear at the time. 

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The IOC are crystal clear that an alternative event must be proposed, and although WS will continue to campaign for the offshore double handed event and that it remains WS's first choice, WS is going to respond with an alternative.

Here are the criteria specified by IOC

  1. Align with Olympic Agenda 2020+5, including relevance to the youth, innovation, universality and participation of the best athletes
  2. Keep full gender equality on both number of events and athlete quotas (e.g. alternative mixed-gender events or split of currently approved mixed events into men's and women's events)
  3. Prioritise universality and maximise the accessibility of the sport
  4. Should have been previously tested at the respective World Championships organised by World Sailing
  5. Should not cause an increase of the overall cost and complexity for the Paris 2024 Organising Committee, National Olympic Committees and/or National Federations, specifically in the direct comparison with the sailing programme, as a whole, in Tokyo 2020
  6. Use of existing venues/Fields of Play

#2 is key, so WS has to offer either a (i) 2 person boat with M/F crew or (ii) offer a single hander with gender neutral possibility or (iii) Replace one of the mixed classes with a separate male and female event.

#4 means that it has to be an existing world sailing class that has hosted a world championship. The list of world sailing classes

#3 means it cannot be absurdly expensive
 

There is no way that the Finn and Star can come back because it doesnt comply with #2.

In reverse order of options

(iii) It is possible that either the mixed 470, mixed nacra or the mixed kite events could be replaced by stand alone M and F events.    The mixed 470 is popular with IOC and is a good platform for mixed crew so I doubt WS goes down that route.  Mixed gender kite racing is a bit unequal because strength does matter. The sport itself outside of Olympics is based on M and F divisions, so possibly a womens kite event and a mens kite event. Nacra racing is probably too far along with teams built around the pairs.   If they go down the third route, my bet would be kites first or possibly 470.

(ii)  The only single handed where weight and strength is less important would possibly be a moth. Even in the moth, the medals would be dominated by men. 

(i) New double or triple handed class with an existing world championship that is suitable for mixed crew that is reasonably affordable.  

The list of classes that hold world championships is not that long. See here : https://www.sailing.org/classesandequipment/index.php

A small modern keelboat would be easy to be gender neutral. There are only 4 classes to choose from : J70, SB20, Melges 20 and Viper  640. The first J70 and Melges 20 are probably too expensive and the Viper would probably hate to see their "No professional" atmosphere killed by becoming an Olympic class.

Under centerboard, I dont see a double handed class that adds anything over and above the 470.

So I conclude that WS has to either

Splt the kites into M and F

Split the 470 into M and F

Add the Intl Moth.

Add the Viper or SB 20 with max crew weight limit and M/F requirement.

 

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Using all launch ramp boats eliminated the cost of a crane and hoist, wiring underground to the crane and hoist and deeper water for the keelboats.

Once keelboats were eliminated, this ended paralympic sailing. Paralympic boats need a crane and hoist to launch.  And the paralympics do not have the income to support the infrastructure, they must use the leftover infrastructure from the Olympics.

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Eri Fukasawa: From RB Foiling Generation, to sail along Francois Gabart -  Catamaran Racing , News & Design

High Speed Hydrofoil Racing: Red Bull Foiling Generation World Finals -  YouTube

Red Bull Foiling Generation - Kiwis win title in Newport, USA.

In my opinion there should be another multihull class, like the one above that is really made to foil, both upwind and down. The Nacre is quite bad at foiling and wasn't really designed to foil anyways.

It would be fabulous having a class like this in the Olympics!

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1 hour ago, sailman said:

Get sailing out of the Olympics and sailing will improve.

I dont think that getting sailing out of the Olympics will help sailing.  I cannot think of ways that the Olympics hinders the rest of sailing.  On the margin, it does provide funding and a path for the truly talented sailors to dedicate some of their lives to sailing.  They then pass on some of the lessons they learnt during their campaigns to the rest of us.

Our sport is unique in having this nagging question about whether the Olympics is good or bad for the sport. You dont hear of skiers going around saying how bad the Olympics is for their sport.

Anyway....I think the Olympics would be poorer in the absence of sailing. It has been in the Olympics since the earliest days. It was one of the original sports scheduled for the first Olympics in 1896, but the regatta didnt take place due to launching issues but was included in the 1900 Olympics and ever since. Sailing in my mind is one of the great Olympic sports with some of the most famous sailors coming from the Olympics .

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1 hour ago, sailman said:

Get sailing out of the Olympics and sailing will improve.

Counterpoint example: Paul Elvstrom. Absent the Olympics would anyone have heard of him? 

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1 hour ago, fastyacht said:

Get sailing out of the olympics and nobody will notice.

Around here anyway, that is wrong. For example there is sailing infrastructure in GBR that exists because funding was available to sailing as an Olympic sport. Most sailors who are seriously committed to sailing as a sport will use that infrastructure at some point, not only Olympic wannabes.

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1 minute ago, dogwatch said:

Around here anyway, that is wrong. For example there is sailing infrastructure in GBR that exists because funding was available to sailing as an Olympic sport. Most sailors who are seriously committed to sailing as a sport will use that infrastructure at some point, not only Olympic wannabes.

Its just fun that the Olympics includes sailing.

In the US we are going through a decade long cycle of tearing our hair out because we are not very good at it.  We'll come back in the course of time. talent will get discovered. Its a shame kiteboarding took so long to get recognized, we would have landed a few medals there but ah well......in the meantime I am in awe of anyone who had the thrill of going to the Olympics in sailing.

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4 minutes ago, Senator Seditious Maximus said:

Which class?  Who the fuck cares anymore.  This was final straw for me.  I could care less about the 5 Ring Circus and will avoid and moral or financial support of the event to the extent possible.  The one possible event that might remotely interested Joe Q. Public and they pull the plug without a fight.  I'm outta here.

Signed,

Snizzling little seditious bitches

The only fun thing in the olympics is the winter follies.

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2 minutes ago, Alan Crawford said:

Finn

Just like the Star, the Olympics needs the Finn more than the Finn needs the Olympics. 

 

The Finn produced some of the most famous Olympians of all time ...Paul Elvstrom, Ben Ainslie, Russell Coutts.   There must have been something about the boat that attracted so much talent.

But It doesnt maintain gender equality so sadly, its not going to be the Finn.

 

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5 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

There is essentially ZERO money made available for sailing in the U.S. because of the Olympics. It is still a 100% amateur endeavor here, self-funded by sailors' trust funds.

There is some funding.  But yeah its very poorly funded.

Even so, I think it is worth it for those who do it and fun for the rest of us to sail with them when they retire from Olympic sailing.

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13 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

There is some funding.  But yeah its very poorly funded.

Even so, I think it is worth it for those who do it and fun for the rest of us to sail with them when they retire from Olympic sailing.

I see it rather the other way around. I've sailed stars boat for boat against Olympians. They were star champions who went to the Olympics--not olympians who came and sailed stars.

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31 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

But It doesnt maintain gender equality so sadly, its not going to be the Finn.

 

There is already gender equality with single handed dinghy - Laser Radial and then the Standard Laser. Am I mistaken?

What is missing in the Olympics is a boat that a heavier male can sail. The Star and Finn were two such boats but the Star is gone and the Finn will be gone. This is excluding a significant population of global sailors (males) who are too large to be competitive in a Laser / ILCA. 

 

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55 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

The Finn produced some of the most famous Olympians of all time ...Paul Elvstrom, Ben Ainslie, Russell Coutts.   There must have been something about the boat that attracted so much talent.

But It doesnt maintain gender equality so sadly, its not going to be the Finn.

 

How do you create gender equality in a sport that is dependent on body weight, height, and physical strength? Double-handed-mixed was proposed to be the solution but see how far it went in the "offshore" class. And even then: Who drives, who hikes? There is a reason why there are so little mixed teams of two in any sport except maybe tennis... 

If you want fairness, then men and women must have their own races, maybe even their own clases. Say, women=Laser, men=Finn, women=470, men=505 etc...  

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14 minutes ago, 10thTonner said:

How do you create gender equality in a sport that is dependent on body weight, height, and physical strength? Double-handed-mixed was proposed to be the solution but see how far it went in the "offshore" class. And even then: Who drives, who hikes? There is a reason why there are so little mixed teams of two in any sport except maybe tennis... 

If you want fairness, then men and women must have their own races, maybe even their own clases. Say, women=Laser, men=Finn, women=470, men=505 etc...  

Four person keelboat, total crew weight limit that allows for a mix of heavy & light sailors, must include at least two genders (and both biological ones). I'm not sure the exact boat matters as long as it's available & affordable. 

Optimal crew might be girls on the ends (driver & bow) and bigger guys in the middle.

As for maintaining a crew of that size, rowing & bobsled among other sports seem to manage. 

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1 hour ago, fastyacht said:

There is essentially ZERO money made available for sailing in the U.S. because of the Olympics. It is still a 100% amateur endeavor here, self-funded by sailors' trust funds.

Actually the number of medals earned does put money in the bank for US Sailing Olympics.  It's been many years, last I saw it was around $4M.  The money is held in an USOC investment account (with other sports).  They money is commonly used to pay for the coaches for the US Sailing Olympic Team.

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2 hours ago, fastyacht said:

There is essentially ZERO money made available for sailing in the U.S. because of the Olympics. It is still a 100% amateur endeavor here, self-funded by sailors' trust funds.

And there in lies the problem (in my opinion) with the Olympics.   Professionalism.  Why must it be a career to get into the Olympics and keep it going each cycle.  The AC is doing the same thing, trying to keep professionals employed between cycles.  It’s wrong.

Once the US allowed its professional athletes into the mix I stopped watching.  The IOC is just a commercial entity selling a product, the altruism is gone.

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3 minutes ago, sailman said:

And there in lies the problem (in my opinion) with the Olympics.   Professionalism.  Why must it be a career to get into the Olympics and keep it going each cycle.  The AC is doing the same thing, trying to keep professionals employed between cycles.  It’s wrong.

Once the US allowed its professional athletes into the mix I stopped watching.  The IOC is just a commercial entity selling a product, the altruism is gone.

How are sailors supposed to remain competitive for the 4 years necessary to run a campaign when government money isn't an option?

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4 hours ago, fastyacht said:

Get sailing out of the olympics and nobody will notice.

One could argue that the Olympics are sucking all sailing funding for Olympics classes only, and elite sailors only. And therefore it is not beneficial for "the rest of us".

But what is going to happen if sailing is no longer an olympics sport? Does it mean that the meager available funds are redistributed with positive impact to the average sailor (or sailor wanabee)?

 

Or does it means that the funding simply disapear???

 

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13 minutes ago, Laurent said:

One could argue that the Olympics are sucking all sailing funding for Olympics classes only, and elite sailors only. And therefore it is not beneficial for "the rest of us".

But what is going to happen if sailing is no longer an olympics sport? Does it mean that the meager available funds are redistributed with positive impact to the average sailor (or sailor wanabee)?

 

Or does it means that the funding simply disapear???

 

As Glenn said, some littel drop in the bucket (4 mil?) came ast time we actually had some medals. The money doesn't amount to squat. Heck, I think I spent that much in gas, tolls and sails last 10 years in my dinghty ;-)

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The Olympics are an excuse to put in a bunch of stadium infrastructure. Regattas require a race committee at the start and finish line and not much else. The real problem is that sailing isn't expensive enough.

The solution is to build an international sailing circuit that is more fun for competitors and more profitable to operate than the Olympics. The top level events draw in the elite of the elite, but local feeder events should be tiered so that anyone can compete at some level. 

Alternately, figure out how to "require" some ludicrously expensive regatta infrastructure so that locals with political pull have an interest in making the event happen.

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4 hours ago, Alan Crawford said:

There is already gender equality with single handed dinghy - Laser Radial and then the Standard Laser. Am I mistaken?

What is missing in the Olympics is a boat that a heavier male can sail. The Star and Finn were two such boats but the Star is gone and the Finn will be gone. This is excluding a significant population of global sailors (males) who are too large to be competitive in a Laser / ILCA. 

 

You are correct there is currently gender equality:

Men : Laser. 49er  Mens windsurfing = 3 male events

Women : Laser radial. 49er FX  Women Windsurfing = 3 Female events

Mixed : 470 , Nacra , Kite Boarding = 3 mixed events.

The IOC has mandated that the tenth class must maintain gender equality.

As a women sailor, I have to say that WS and IOC are overthinking gender equality. Nevertheless the mandate from the IOC is that the 10th class must maintain the existing gender equality.   I agree there should be a class which can accommodate the large athletic male.  The population of men who sailed Finns and Stars competitively are forever excluded from sailing and that does not make sense.

A legs in hiking keelboat class which rules required a women sailor which would then put a premium on big guys would be ideal. 

  • Preserve at least 1 keelboat discipline
  • Enable large men to sail
  • Mixed Gender.

But I just dont see the class that would do thiis. The star is not suited for Mixed gender sailing and it would probably ruin the Star class. The Vipers dont want pro sailors in their class.

An idea that I would love is team racing because it would be such a great spectator sport but it requires to many athletes. Although, why couldnt 3 members of the team racing squad be drawn from the rest of the Olympic team ....no different than the track and field athletes who participate in more than one disciline.

My thought on team racing is that each country can bring 3 specialist team racers and the other 3 sailors come from the rest of the squad. 

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1 hour ago, EYESAILOR said:

You are correct there is currently gender equality:

Men : Laser. 49er  Mens windsurfing = 3 male events

Women : Laser radial. 49er FX  Women Windsurfing = 3 Female events

Mixed : 470 , Nacra , Kite Boarding = 3 mixed events.

The IOC has mandated that the tenth class must maintain gender equality.

As a women sailor, I have to say that WS and IOC are overthinking gender equality. Nevertheless the mandate from the IOC is that the 10th class must maintain the existing gender equality.   I agree there should be a class which can accommodate the large athletic male.  The population of men who sailed Finns and Stars competitively are forever excluded from sailing and that does not make sense.

A legs in hiking keelboat class which rules required a women sailor which would then put a premium on big guys would be ideal. 

  • Preserve at least 1 keelboat discipline
  • Enable large men to sail
  • Mixed Gender.

But I just dont see the class that would do thiis. The star is not suited for Mixed gender sailing and it would probably ruin the Star class. The Vipers dont want pro sailors in their class.

An idea that I would love is team racing because it would be such a great spectator sport but it requires to many athletes. Although, why couldnt 3 members of the team racing squad be drawn from the rest of the Olympic team ....no different than the track and field athletes who participate in more than one disciline.

My thought on team racing is that each country can bring 3 specialist team racers and the other 3 sailors come from the rest of the squad. 

3 person J24 wirh 155 jib would dothe trick. Require female helm. That is worth equal with two brawny trimmers:)

Heck

Just make star requir female skip.

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IMHO it doesn't matter which class is picked.  It will still be boring as all get out, unless this bloke is hired to do the commentary.

 

 

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7 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

The Finn produced some of the most famous Olympians of all time ...Paul Elvstrom, Ben Ainslie, Russell Coutts.   There must have been something about the boat that attracted so much talent.

But It doesnt maintain gender equality so sadly, its not going to be the Finn.

 

Get real..

I'd put up a grand wager I can walk into the US Olympic training Center in Colorado Springs and ask the first 3 athletes  I happen upon to name the sport each of these Olympians succeeded in and they would not have a clue.

Sailing as an Olympic sport is in there with the little girls jumping around with a ribbon attached to stick..

https://www.olympic.org/gymnastics-rhythmic

Nobody cares except their parents...

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Foreverslow said:

Get real..

I'd put up a grand wager I can walk into the US Olympic training Center in Colorado Springs and ask the first 3 athletes  I happen upon to name the sport each of these Olympians succeeded in and they would not have a clue.

Sailing as an Olympic sport is in there with the little girls jumping around with a ribbon attached to stick..

https://www.olympic.org/gymnastics-rhythmic

Nobody cares except their parents...

 

 

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1 hour ago, Foreverslow said:

Get real..

I'd put up a grand wager I can walk into the US Olympic training Center in Colorado Springs and ask the first 3 athletes  I happen upon to name the sport each of these Olympians succeeded in and they would not have a clue.

 

 

 

 

My bad.....I meant 3 of the most famous sailing Olympians. I apologize I did not mean to exaggerate .

I think that most people who follow the sport of sailng know of Paul Elvstrom, Russell Coutts and Ben Ainslie.  My point was that all three medalled in the Finn as opposed to other classes. The Finn has gone and I dont think it comes back but I was giving credit to the class as having attracted some of the greatest sailors.

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1 hour ago, Foreverslow said:

Get real..

I'd put up a grand wager I can walk into the US Olympic training Center in Colorado Springs and ask the first 3 athletes  I happen upon to name the sport each of these Olympians succeeded in and they would not have a clue.

Sailing as an Olympic sport is in there with the little girls jumping around with a ribbon attached to stick..

https://www.olympic.org/gymnastics-rhythmic

Nobody cares except their parents...

 

 

What a braindead take. Who cares how many people can name sailing olympians? I can name the gold medalists of maybe 5 sports, does that mean we should just cancel the rest?

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10 hours ago, Laurent said:

One could argue that the Olympics are sucking all sailing funding for Olympics classes only, and elite sailors only. And therefore it is not beneficial for "the rest of us".

But what is going to happen if sailing is no longer an olympics sport? Does it mean that the meager available funds are redistributed with positive impact to the average sailor (or sailor wanabee)?

 

Or does it means that the funding simply disapear???

 

In the UK, money for sport comes from two separate budgets, “community” and “elite”. For a sport to be eligible to benefit from elite funding, it needs to be on a targeted list which is essentially sports in which GBR is winning Olympic medals. So if sailing exits the Olympics, all elite funding ceases to flow into sailing. That supports sailors and coaches but also builds infrastructure and programmes that benefit the sport in general.  I can think of instances of sailing clubs receiving community funding but they are few and far between.  If sailing no longer received elite funding, it would go to other elite sports, not other aspects of sailing.

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6 hours ago, Livia said:

The Australian TP 52

Got the backing of the Australian Olympic Committee (or parts thereof)

That one isn't actually a TP52, just sayin'

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10 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

An idea that I would love is team racing because it would be such a great spectator sport

I don't know about that. Its tactics are even more obscure to the general public than sailing is in general.

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in my humble opinion, the way to do this is to look at 2024 Paris and 2028 LA as a springboard for the keelboat future.

France - this is the world centre of double handed sailing. leverage it.

Figaro 3 is already there. you can easily hold a world champs before then and it will be awesome. easily done with mixed gender and a range of sailor weights.

France would have a massive advantage, but they only get one slot - imagine the competition in 2023 to win that slot?

Then once to the games, offshore sailing always has a bit of lottery, the gold medal would be anything but a sure thing.

No reason to think why you can't have something similiar for LA 2028 with an offshore race on the west coast, include a mark in (eg) San franc and you bring the games to a wider geographic audience. 

Dropping the keelboat now would be a mistake, use what is already there and you have plenty of time to work on improving for 2032.

 

 

BUT, much bigger issue is olympic sailing fullstop

 

Step 1 - accept that the current system is incredibly elitist.

Step 2 - decide if you want to change that or keep it as is.

shifting a class here and there is not going to change much.

 

ALSO.

this is not limited to sailing alone, but my feeling is that the olympic yardstick of gold/silve/bronze and the rest don't care is outdated.

Now that we have professional sportsman, making a top10/olympic final is an incredible achievement.

To dedicate 4 years of your life to a 30% chance of an olympic top 10 and a 5% chance of a medal is the reality for a lot of talented sailors. If you don't have a national funding program in place and don't live in europe then this barrier to entry is just too steep to do it self funded. Either world sailing puts a hugely funded program for nations outside the elites or we will just get to the olympic regatta with 6/7 people capable of winning a medal, their training partners will whip the butts of those who come 15th who are there just to make up numbers. Hardly olympic.

 

 

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On 4/18/2021 at 12:53 AM, EYESAILOR said:

The IOC has finally woken up and realized that World Sailing has proposed an Olympic Class/Discipline without an existing world championship ,  exclusive and expensive to participate in for those outside of the wealthiest nations and problematic from TV Coverage.

As a French taxpayer, I am even more disappointed to have to foot the bill for the Paris Olympics. It is such an elitist and commercial event, why should we pay for it ?

The reality is that there is very little racing here in Olympic classes. OK, you can enter a local Laser race but you will race against teenagers and there are catamaran races but these are mostly raids.

If they want to be vaguely representative of the sport, think that proper offshore is too much for them and want small boats, they should organise some catamaran raids. To win, you need some seamanship whereas Olympic organisers seem to insist on races that are mostly tactical. Why ?

As for big boats being elitists, I am not too sure about this as lot of people learnt by being invited as crew on a bigger boat, it is a very efficient way of being mentored. Actually they could well organise semi-offshore competitions on 30 footers with 6 people on board, that would develop sailing across the world like the Tour de France à la Voile developed sailing in France. There is nothing like young guys on the foredeck and at the winches learning all the tricks from experienced guys driving and doing tactics behind. IMHO the 90s was when amateur (not professional) sailing was at his peak in France with lot of people racing at all levels on cruiser racers.

They won't do it... the Olympics are just yet another commercial operation profiting from young athletes, they just want something that can be sold to TV networks while the infrastructure is being paid by host nations! TV => Inshore stadium!

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23 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

So do you think a one design moth would create a meaningful Olympic discipline?

It is a valid suggestion. The moth world championships seem to attract some of the worlds very best sailors. The Olympic competition would be rewarding true sailor athletes. It is reasonably affordable. It would not put pressure on the number of competitors.

 

What would the moth replace?

There are  two options:

Replace the keelboat. Should the Olympics exclude a keelboat discipline for the first time since 1900 (2nd olympics)?  

Replace one of the board classes  (racing windsurfers around courses is increasingly irrelevant)

2024 is too short notice to disrupt existing classes but I think windsurfing has to be under pressure for 2028.

If offshore event is ditched then Moth might be a class that could be ready by 2024 (which is very close)

One important factor is the time line.Only 3 years away, it will be hard to get a new class and athletes identified if WS strays too far into new ground

I like the Moth suggestion.

I must say that sailing is a tough sell, even to sailors. There are only so many people who will watch it. You can go the crash and burn side, which might attract some viewers. But watch those Australian skiffs and you are done after one race. I would say the Moth might be interesting since it provides a good balance of speed, stategy/tactics, and some crashes from which one can recover. 

 

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10 minutes ago, AnotherSailor said:

But watch those Australian skiffs and you are done after one race

 

You're kidding right?

The 18's are the best REGULAR viewing of sailing on the internet! What are you proposing as being better?

The Moth class because the 18's don't capsize all over the place? I like the Moths and used to sail them. They don't WANT to be an Olympic class. The 18's don't want to be an Olympic class.

The last thing I can remember being televised from SanFran was KiteFoiling.

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A development class like Int Moth is not going to be an Olympic class  but a spin-off OD foiler could be. It would not be the first time a Moth derivative has become an Olympic class.

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I agree that it is a damn shame that the IOC  will not even experiment for one Olympics to see if the two day, offshore, 2 person keel boat event will work or not. 

Just for the sake of an experiment, it would surely be worth trying.   I was not a huge fan when I first heard of it.....but offshore keelboat is such a large component of our sport, why not just give it a shot to see how it plays.   If anywhere is worth trying it, the French Olympics would be the place to try it.   There are plenty of great courses that could be set on the French coast.  Let WS organize it and see how it goes.  The lack of a world championship is a bit spurious because there are plenty of premier offshore two handed events.  The coverage could be interesting with tracing etc.  The human element of exhaustion and racing flat out for 48 hours could provide more human interest than the IOC realizes.

But the decision has been taken and the question is, what does WS offer as a replacement while still campaigning for the offshore.   

 

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8 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

A development class like Int Moth is not going to be an Olympic class  but a spin-off OD foiler could be. It would not be the first time a Moth derivative has become an Olympic class.

Yes it would have to be OD.   I dont know enough about moths.....does weight and strength matter? Can it truly be a gender neutral class?

I have this feeling that the nations would all be represented by men.  This would not meet the IOC guideline, replacing a mixed event with a mens event.

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Looking at the Formula Kitefoiling event, it is a mixed relay so each country has one woman and one male competitor.

One option would be to simply have a mens and womens event. The relay sounds kind of curious, how do they hend the baton over?

 

Part of me would like to see a freestyle kiting or windfoiling event, with points like gymnastics or snowboard. Just to show that sailing can have a silly sport just like all the rest of the olympics.   Mixed gender again. score the team of two bit like the gymnastics team event. :)

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Ok, but why does it have to be gender mixed? who's decision was that? Why mixing genders in the first place?

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16 hours ago, crashtack said:

How are sailors supposed to remain competitive for the 4 years necessary to run a campaign when government money isn't an option?

Get a job?  Find sponsorship?  It's a game/sport, get over it.

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21 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

Yes it would have to be OD.   I dont know enough about moths.....does weight and strength matter? Can it truly be a gender neutral class?

I have this feeling that the nations would all be represented by men.  This would not meet the IOC guideline, replacing a mixed event with a mens event.

Historically, low-rider Moths were quite gender-mixed as being light was a big advantage. With the advent of foiling, it's become a men's class. I'd have thought with a reduced rig-size it could be gender-balanced.

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26 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

Part of me would like to see a freestyle kiting or windfoiling event, with points like gymnastics or snowboard. 

I personally have a great dislike of an Olympic sport where the result comes down to the opinion of another person, especially if it has anything to do with what we call sailing.

Just my opinion of course...

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13 minutes ago, Jethrow said:

I personally have a great dislike of an Olympic sport where the result comes down to the opinion of another person, especially if it has anything to do with what we call sailing.

Just my opinion of course...

Agreed.  I think the whole event would be much better off if all the sports which relied solely on judgements for their scoring were eliminated.

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1 hour ago, dogwatch said:

Historically, low-rider Moths were quite gender-mixed as being light was a big advantage. 

I think you're overstating the case. If it were more than 10% of the fleet I'd be surprised. There was the odd lass or two, but no more than that.

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59 minutes ago, JimC said:

I think you're overstating the case. If it were more than 10% of the fleet I'd be surprised. There was the odd lass or two, but no more than that.

Hmmm. OK it was a minority but I knew a few female Mothists in that period and iirc John Claridge's missus did OK at Worlds level. Whereas today, it's a men's class.

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22 hours ago, fastyacht said:

There is essentially ZERO money made available for sailing in the U.S. because of the Olympics. It is still a 100% amateur endeavor here, self-funded by sailors' trust funds.

is the outrage of the loss of the keelboat in the Olympics due to old punters with dreams being religated to the shore? The US Olympic sailing applicants and team members has been an insider game forever.  These international popularity contests are always set up to favor thier own children.

I have begun doing sit ups again. Maybe I work in some green lubercant, I can sail a finn for the REPUBLIC OF THE MARSHALL ISLANDS.

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The 470 is a joke - that is why we can't find anyone to sail it in the US.  Christ, the Bic O'pen offers more performance per foot of length.

The Laser is boring and old. 

The foiling moth needs to be added as the single hander.

My guess is the next boat added will likely be a larger foiling multihull with a combo event consisting of match racing and fleet racing.
 

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44 minutes ago, Black Jack said:

is the outrage of the loss of the keelboat in the Olympics due to old punters with dreams being religated to the shore? The US Olympic sailing applicants and team members has been an insider game forever.  These international popularity contests are always set up to favor thier own children.

I have begun doing sit ups again. Maybe I work in some green lubercant, I can sail a finn for the REPUBLIC OF THE MARSHALL ISLANDS.

Personally, I am moving more towards Sumo myself.

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12 hours ago, crashtack said:

What a braindead take. Who cares how many people can name sailing olympians? I can name the gold medalists of maybe 5 sports, does that mean we should just cancel the rest?

You missed the point.

Eyesailor admits he meant to say among sailors when I called him on it.

 

Though you may have their photos framed in your house with candles next to them, none of them will never be known world wide like Olga Korbert, Mark Spitz, or Jessie Owens.  Shit, none of them ever made the front of a box of Wheaties..

Secondly, outside of us sailors nobody gives a rat's ass about sailing in the Olympics.  They never rate prime time viewing, interviews of friends and family back home, or even 10 seconds of action in promotional ads leading up to the event.  With as many events as we have, how come we do not have whole hours of competition on the tube?  They show the whole 2 hour marathon, but you lucky to get 15 seconds of a class event as they show you who own and where the US placed.

The fact we have more than 1 type boat in Olympics is amazing.  They do not have different events for different length javelins.  The greatest sailor should be able to win in any class.  That is what the Olympics are about.  You are the best sailor PERIOD!  All the housing a country needs to build to house these competitors of variations of the same sport.

 

Instead we get played into these dramas by the powers that be.  US Ailing mis-allocates large amounts of membership money to this and megayachtt racing, neither of which has any quantifiable impact on our sport.  We should be focused on teaching large numbers of new sailors racing to seed the stock for the future, helping organize more national championships, and improving the skill level of all sailors so they are more likely to participate, not focus on 2 dozen people who get to actually do the event every 4 years.

Hey, it is great they want to dedicate 4 years to trying to achieve that goal.  Still several levels below the kid who puts his ass on the line to serve their country for 4 years in some hell hole with no prospect of fame and fortune or a hookup with an Olympic hottie.

we get played into arguing this tripe hoping to legitimize our favorite boat.  But nobody else in the world cares.  Show photos of all the  boats to competitors at the Olympic village and it is unlikely the non-sailors can match the photo with the boat type.  But they tell you a hammer, disc, high hurdle vs low hurdle, pommel horse  etc. Ditto the viewing public.

 

All funds are limited, so we need to make hard decisions on where to spend it.  Will a new boat class bring non-sailors over in such numbers that we can actually catch 30 minutes of sailing in an evening (prime time) during the Olympics or have people lined up to learn how to sail it the following week?   Unlikely.

Sailing is a very, very small part of the Olympics. Much the same as golf.  The golf crowd seem to get it.

The sooner we act like like adults and make the hard decisions, the sooner our sport will thrive.

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7 hours ago, sailman said:

Get a job?  Find sponsorship?  It's a game/sport, get over it.

US sailing does have sponsors, but they can't exactly support every single hopeful for 4 years.

I'd like to see you try and qualify for the olympics, and then be competitive in the games, while working a 9-5. In the US, that simply isn't an option

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1 minute ago, crashtack said:

US sailing does have sponsors, but they can't exactly support every single hopeful for 4 years.

I'd like to see you try and qualify for the olympics, and then be competitive in the games, while working a 9-5. In the US, that simply isn't an option

In many countries, Olympic athletes are soldiers or policemen... ;)  

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On 4/18/2021 at 7:07 AM, sailman said:

Get sailing out of the Olympics and sailing will improve.

On 4/18/2021 at 8:31 AM, dogwatch said:

Why?

 

 

The Olympics and Paralympics make and made saying so stupidly expensive, The IPC booted sailing in favor of wheelchair badminton. When countries pay sailors to have fun sailing, everyone is priced right out of the game. Thanks to mostly Euro Countries, sailing was removed from the Paralympics.

 

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