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Which Class will replace the offshore double hander in Olympics


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20 hours ago, Jethrow said:

You're kidding right?

The 18's are the best REGULAR viewing of sailing on the internet! What are you proposing as being better?

This was the point I wanted to make: it is the best viewing and yet... I don't watch it often. Who does?

When the AC was on SF Bay I watched almost every race from shore. It was awesome, especially from the ridge in the Presidio, which allowed you to see the whole course! The few races I watched on TV were disappointing. It is so hard to do this well on tv, especially for a broader audience. In comparison, I will never ever do ski jumping, yet I can watch it on tv and even without commentary it is awesome. 

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Get sailing out of the olympics and nobody will notice.

Get sailing out of the Olympics and sailing will improve.

Diversification is the key. I recommend a 3 person Keel boat with a crew that reflects the ethnic religious and sexual diversity of our modern society. Each of the three crew must be from a different

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6 minutes ago, AnotherSailor said:

This was the point I wanted to make: it is the best viewing and yet... I don't watch it often. Who does?

When the AC was on SF Bay I watched almost every race from shore. It was awesome, especially from the ridge in the Presidio, which allowed you to see the whole course! The few races I watched on TV were disappointing. It is so hard to do this well on tv, especially for a broader audience. In comparison, I will never ever do ski jumping, yet I can watch it on tv and even without commentary it is awesome. 

Ski jumping live is extremely boring and frikkin' cold...  the only thing keeping the sport alive is B channel TV coverage

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23 minutes ago, AnotherSailor said:

When the AC was on SF Bay I watched almost every race from shore. It was awesome, especially from the ridge in the Presidio, which allowed you to see the whole course! The few races I watched on TV were disappointing. It is so hard to do this well on tv, especially for a broader audience.

I watched two ACWS events, Plymouth and the first one at Portsmouth and I'd say the exact opposite. They are designed for TV and best watched on TV. The course is just too big to watch in person. Great that you got a bird's eye view but there aren't many regatta venues that provide that.

Match racing on the inshore Nothe course at the Weymouth Olympics was quite fun to watch but that's slow boats on a small course.

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13 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Here's an outline from World Sailing of what the IOC requires:

  1. Align with Olympic Agenda 2020+5, including relevance to the youth, innovation, universality and participation of the best athletes

Showed the following to my teenage lads, their eyes lit up, they watched all of the footage and used yoof words such as sick, etc. then asked about how they could give it a go.

 

 

I don't think I could get them to watch more than 10 seconds of a keel boat or traditional dinghy race.

Maybe a form of Waszp with weight equalisation would get close to the brief?

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2 hours ago, tallyho said:

Ski jumping live is extremely boring and frikkin' cold...  the only thing keeping the sport alive is B channel TV coverage

I do recognize that for many watching sailing either on tv or live is extremely boring, as well as utterly confusing. I could never spend an afternoon in the bleachers hearing the commentary around me. Just shoot me. Oh, and in many cases it is also better to turn off the commentary of the tv "experts."

 

1 hour ago, dogwatch said:

Great that you got a bird's eye view but there aren't many regatta venues that provide that.

Yes, that is an issue.

Maybe it is me, but I am personally not big on watching sailing on tv. I have to believe the commentator that there is a windshift or a hole, even if there is little evidence for their statements. I just miss the in person observation. But that is me. 

And, I would prefer to sail myself a beer can or club race as opposed to watching an olympic race on tv...

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10 minutes ago, AnotherSailor said:

And, I would prefer to sail myself a beer can or club race as opposed to watching an olympic race on tv...

Me too but it's rarely been an either-or choice.

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Olympics should be only about competition. All the other stuff like TVs, stadiums, viewers, etc. are just accessory. Or they should be.

Sailing will never be a TV friendly sport, and honestly, who cares? Sponsors? Yes, but they'll have to be realistic in their expectations.

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1 hour ago, Metoxi said:

Showed the following to my teenage lads, their eyes lit up, they watched all of the footage and used yoof words such as sick, etc. then asked about how they could give it a go.

On that basis, it is likely that about half of the Olympic Sports should go. Including the marathon.

I really don't like 'having to' select ten events. It ends up being destructive, classes end up pitching against each other. Like with other sports, each event should be selected on its own merits, and never 'invented' for the Olympics.

It seems to me that kiteboarding is a worthy new entrant.

For me, I will always watch the Finn ahead of other classes. Because of the tradition of Paul E, Valentin M, Ben A et al, AND because the current crop Josh J, Giles S, Nickolas H et al. I'm sure there are kiteboarding stars, though I don't know their names, and I'm not so sure they will win world championships (or medals) in other classes.

  

4 hours ago, crashtack said:

If the Olympics should be inclusive of the wide range of boats that are sailed today and should reflect the diversity of the sport, then there should be keelboats, offshore races, match races, hell, add PHRF racing I guess.

On the other hand, if you believe that the Olympics should be at or near the "cutting edge" of the sport, and should represent only the fastest, newest racing, then it makes sense that the Star and Finn have gone, replaced by the Nacra and 49er, and that the next classes should be planing/foiling beasts.

A false dichotomy, in my view, Olympic sailing is far more complex.

First comparing speed walking with running. Both are Olympic disciplines, both have considerable traditions. Three legged racing also exists. 

Each event should be there on its own merit. The system of making one-design classes Olympic should be all about recognizing that.

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11 hours ago, TJSoCal said:

So do J/70 mixed, drop men's iFoil and bring back the Finn. 

One of the requirements is innovation, so the Finn is not coming back, more chance of there being another kite class than that happening in my opinion.

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12 hours ago, TJSoCal said:

So do J/70 mixed, drop men's iFoil and bring back the Finn. 

Wish it was that easy.

The IOC are clear that they want to make one event change, to replace the mixed offshore event. If the J70 was accepted, it would be instead of another class.

12 hours ago, Jethrow said:

The Melges 24 and J-70 will both lose out due to using a crane to launch.

They can be hauled out of the beach on a trailer - but - the beach needs to be deep enough for that to work. (Ideally a ramp is best). ...and we're back to limiting venues.

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7 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Wish it was that easy.

The IOC are clear that they want to make one event change, to replace the mixed offshore event. If the J70 was accepted, it would be instead of another class.

They can be hauled out of the beach on a trailer - but - the beach needs to be deep enough for that to work. (Ideally a ramp is best). ...and we're back to limiting venues.

 

3 hours ago, Metoxi said:

Showed the following to my teenage lads, their eyes lit up, they watched all of the footage and used yoof words such as sick, etc. then asked about how they could give it a go.

 

 

I don't think I could get them to watch more than 10 seconds of a keel boat or traditional dinghy race.

Maybe a form of Waszp with weight equalisation would get close to the brief?

Kite foiling will save Sailing's role as a Olympic sport.   It should have been introduced in 2016...it was,,,but was later pushed out by politics. Terrible mistake in hindsight.

Sailors should embrace kite foiling because its Olympic appeal will subsidize the rest of the sport.

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1 hour ago, chuso007 said:

Olympics should be only about competition. All the other stuff like TVs, stadiums, viewers, etc. are just accessory. Or they should be.

Sailing will never be a TV friendly sport, and honestly, who cares? Sponsors? Yes, but they'll have to be realistic in their expectations.

Olympics has to be about both. It costs money to host the competition.

Including a mix of TV friendly sports helps pay for the purely competitive sports.

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4 hours ago, AnotherSailor said:

. In comparison, I will never ever do ski jumping, yet I can watch it on tv and even without commentary it is awesome. 

You can thank Eddy now

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1 hour ago, Bruce Hudson said:

 

I really don't like 'having to' select ten events. It ends up being destructive, classes end up pitching against each other. Like with other sports, each event should be selected on its own merits, and never 'invented' for the Olympics.

It seems to me that kiteboarding is a worthy new entrant.

 

The way to reduce the class politics/warfare that often ends up with bad decisions is for WS to start off by defining the categories they feel are needed , and only then allow debate on classes to fill those categories.

For example, it was absurd when the multihulls were thrown out for a class that had nothing to do with multihulls.

WS has got a bit better at defining categories and then looking for class to fulfill those categories. It needs a balance because if a particular class is widely raced around the world then obviously it should be looked at. 

Anyway...it will be interesting to see how WS resolves all of this.

 

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The damage was done. WS is cooked. IOC is corrupt. The whole fucking enterprise is just a massive reacjaround cashgrab.

Fuck the Olympics. Look wistfully at the past. I havent watched summer olympics in 20 years.

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4 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

The damage was done. WS is cooked. IOC is corrupt. The whole fucking enterprise is just a massive reacjaround cashgrab.

Fuck the Olympics. Look wistfully at the past. I havent watched summer olympics in 20 years.

No point in watching it, the only thing they can be bothered filming is the last day 30 minute sail parade drift around the flat water harbour course, which they inexplicably allocate double points to.  No, really, it is a sport?  Looks more like a pastime, the way they exhibit it.

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It's shocking you never see other sports deal with this every cycle.

"We need to run 836m, not 880, cause it's faster for TV viewers!"

"We're dropping the butterfly because nobody swims that in real life"

Here is a Finn & Star Sailor's Rebuttal:

1. Align with Olympic Agenda 2020+5, including relevance to the youth, innovation, universality and participation of the best athletes

Another nebulous word salad, the youth are more focused on playing Fortnite on their iPads than on the pinnacle of niche sport; the best will always strive for excellence regardless of event category-having history, institutional knowledge, and role models in existing classes is a greater tool than fifteen seconds of highlight reel. Regarding universality, cost controls and distribution are as great a barrier as athlete funding; hence the acrimonious Laser/ILCA litigation. I would argue that a revolving door of classes explicitly works AGAINST universality (i.e. Nacra 17 conversions, Elliot 6M's, Tempests) as there is no used equipment for smaller/poorer nations to buy or for beginning athletes to train in. Regarding participation of the best athletes, let me once again point out that the world population is getting taller and heavier every year, and that elite male athletes in other disciplines (Basketball, Swimming, American/Euro Footballs) all approach or exceed 1.8m height and 85kg in weight, which is Finn/Star territory and not represented at all in the current lineup.
2. Keep full gender equality on both number of events and athlete quotas (e.g. alternative mixed-gender events or split of currently approved mixed events into men's and women's events)

Ok. I would agree that the women's counterpoint events (Radial, 49erFX, 470W, RS:XW) are strong and competitive fleets and deserve similar attention/funding as male-only events. I think this line gets blurry in mixed events, especially when women are primarily "crews" or "co-skippers". Most N17 skippers are male because of the desire to put weight in the back of the bus, and 470M became mixed because there aren't a ton of 120lb adult men. In the spirit of feminine empowerment, wouldn't a class that rewards lighter skippers be favorable? or let's go full hog and make sailing a woman-dominated sport and have another girls-only event, say drop 470M entirely. Moths wouldnt work and they don't want to deal with the Olympics. You want J70's/SB20's/Vipers? what of those needs a lighter skipper than crew?
3. Prioritise universality and maximise the accessibility of the sport

Yes, a $250,000 Jeannau 3300 is going to be super accessible to the Yachting Association of Guinea-Bisseau. I think this is where kites, boards, and dinghies make a very strong argument against keelboats and multihulls. 37 women competed in Radials in 2016, including from non-western and non-maritime nations like Algeria and Tunisia. If the Olympics wants to live up to its ideals as a cosmopolitan, international event with adequate representation from every continent, creating new classes and more expensive classes is going to price out the entire continent of Africa, a significant portion of the Americas, Southern and Western Asia, and most of Oceania. If you want to host the "US, Europe, China, and Australia games", then go right ahead.
4. Should have been previously tested at the respective World Championships organised by World Sailing

Does it count if it's a shoddily organized event in boats nobody gives a shit about attended by random hedge fund managers from Connecticut? *cough cough cough* Most classes run their own World/Euro/Continental games, if a class can't exist on its own merit then it has no right to the Games.
5. Should not cause an increase of the overall cost and complexity for the Paris 2024 Organising Committee, National Olympic Committees and/or National Federations, specifically in the direct comparison with the sailing programme, as a whole, in Tokyo 2020

What did the RYA spend per medal? a million pounds? Meanwhile Team Canada didn't send half their fleet even though they qualified. Another weird metric.
6. Use of existing venues/Fields of Play

Water is water, but it damn sure is a hell of a sight easier to host 1NM windward-leeward triangles than to put together some sort of cross-bay slalom or 48 hour time trial event

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18 hours ago, fastyacht said:

The damage was done. WS is cooked. IOC is corrupt. The whole fucking enterprise is just a massive reacjaround cashgrab.

Fuck the Olympics. Look wistfully at the past. I havent watched summer olympics in 20 years.

Yeah, good point. I have to dig deep into my memory as well to remember when I last watched a summer olympic event... 

The olympics is not going to make sailing into a popular sport. It can possibly assist, but not without the grassroots that are mostly missing. 

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13 hours ago, onepointfivethumbs said:

Regarding participation of the best athletes, let me once again point out that the world population is getting taller and heavier every year, and that elite male athletes in other disciplines (Basketball, Swimming, American/Euro Footballs) all approach or exceed 1.8m height and 85kg in weight, which is Finn/Star territory and not represented at all in the current lineup.

Big blokes are doing well in these disciplines because big blokes are advantaged but competitive marathon runners or cyclists are much lighter than this. 85 kg as a "racing fit" weight is completely unfair to many nations, most fit Frenchmen are barely heavy enough to race a Laser competitively! Ben Ainslie who was just heavy enough for a Laser wouldn't be competitive in a class tailored for 85kg sailors!

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Huh? After his Laser career Ben Ainslie did some gym time, put on 18kg of muscle and won 3 Golds in the Finn and 5 Finn Worlds.

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3 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

Huh? After his Laser career Ben Ainslie did some gym time, put on 18kg of muscle and won 3 Golds in the Finn and 5 Finn Worlds.

OK, "wouldn't have been competitive". What's point of forcing people to do some weight lifting just to gain weight to be competitive ? 85kg excludes most fit people from Asia, Europe and many parts of Africa / South America!

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6 hours ago, Panoramix said:

Big blokes are doing well in these disciplines because big blokes are advantaged but competitive marathon runners or cyclists are much lighter than this. 85 kg as a "racing fit" weight is completely unfair to many nations, most fit Frenchmen are barely heavy enough to race a Laser competitively! Ben Ainslie who was just heavy enough for a Laser wouldn't be competitive in a class tailored for 85kg sailors!

Sir Ben was 1.83m and 90kg and has three Finn golds dude...

6 hours ago, Panoramix said:

OK, "wouldn't have been competitive". What's point of forcing people to do some weight lifting just to gain weight to be competitive ? 85kg excludes most fit people from Asia, Europe and many parts of Africa / South America!

Where did I say that people would be forced to gain weight? Neither flavor of Laser, 49er, Windsurfer, or the 470 are going anywhere, all of which mandate sub-85kg sailors.

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3 minutes ago, onepointfivethumbs said:

Sir Ben was 1.83m and 90kg and has three Finn golds dude...

Where did I say that people would be forced to gain weight? Neither flavor of Laser, 49er, Windsurfer, or the 470 are going anywhere, all of which mandate sub-85kg sailors.

Sir Ben had to gain weight to become competitive in Finn!

Laser sailors are already quite heavy, not sure why you would want classes where in most countries many athletes would be underweight!

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7 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

not sure why you would want classes where in most countries many athletes would be underweight!

And yet Rio saw entries from 46 countries and all six continents, completely filling the entry quota...

 

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3 minutes ago, onepointfivethumbs said:

And yet Rio saw entries from 46 countries and all six continents, completely filling the entry quota...

 

Doesn't tell us how many were competitive or had to gain weight!

If you look at high level sailors here, they sail offshore as this where the competition is in France, weight doesn't really matter on a Figaro or a mini and you realise that very few of the sailors who've made it to the top would be heavy enough to sail in a 85kg+ class. So I struggle to believe that a heavy weight class truly would attract the best athletes! It just means that some good athletes end up "bodybuilding" to reach the target weight. If they want to attract the best, they need a 70 to 85kg class, most fit men on earth fall in this category.

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43 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

Sir Ben had to gain weight to become competitive in Finn!

Laser sailors are already quite heavy, not sure why you would want classes where in most countries many athletes would be underweight!

You’re complaining that an OLYMPIC athlete may have to work out to add muscle mass?  

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5 minutes ago, Monkey said:

You’re complaining that an OLYMPIC athlete may have to work out to add muscle mass?  

No, just that the rules are set in favour of a few nations where people are heavier. There are lot of sports where only heavy muscular people can win, there is no need to make it universal.

20 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

I am too big for a Laser. Therefore, the lympics is unfsirly biasing

Take up rowing!

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1 minute ago, Panoramix said:

No, just that the rules are set in favour of a few nations where people are heavier. There are lot of sports where only heavy muscular people can win, there is no need to make it universal.

Take up rowing!

Pan......I am a lightweight woman.  Im glad to see so many opportunities for women in Olympic sailing.

However I do feel bad for the tall, big male sailors who have lost 3 classes which used to provide opportunity....it was not so long ago that there was the Soling, Star and Finn at the Olympics at the same time.  That was too much but perhaps the scale has swung too far the other direction.

Neither of those classes desrve to come back....but there ought to be at least one discipline where they can compete.  The lightweight athletes have plenty of choices.

The two person offshore was one opportunity. That has likely gone.  I did like the idea of a contemporary 2/3 person sportboat mixed gender.  The best weight combination there would be a woman driver and a large male hiking in the middle of the boat and flying the chute etc.

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Seems adding the Moth for men is a no-brainer.  Fast and very athletic.  You don’t have to be 470 super skinny or Finn huge.  the Class has tons of history for all the heritage fanatics.  AND the best sailors on the planet are sailing them even though they’re not yet an Olympic class and they don’t get paid.  


Adding the Wasp for women would also be A good call.

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1 hour ago, EYESAILOR said:

Pan......I am a lightweight woman.  Im glad to see so many opportunities for women in Olympic sailing.

However I do feel bad for the tall, big male sailors who have lost 3 classes which used to provide opportunity....it was not so long ago that there was the Soling, Star and Finn at the Olympics at the same time.  That was too much but perhaps the scale has swung too far the other direction.

Neither of those classes desrve to come back....but there ought to be at least one discipline where they can compete.  The lightweight athletes have plenty of choices.

The two person offshore was one opportunity. That has likely gone.  I did like the idea of a contemporary 2/3 person sportboat mixed gender.  The best weight combination there would be a woman driver and a large male hiking in the middle of the boat and flying the chute etc.

TBH I only follow the Olympics from a distance and hadn't realised that there had been such a swing! I mainly remember people moaning that they were too light except in 470. I know it is now old but the weight of some star sailors was a bit ridiculous, you don't find many 100kg French athletes!

3 person mixed sportboat with an overall weight limit would probably allow people of all shapes to compete fairly (light helm + divide the weight between the 2 crews 1 heavy + 1 light or 2 medium). I was excited to see that offshore was in but it is now out so my point of view probably doesn't matter as I won't follow closely. I like following a multi day offshore race on a tracker as there is lot of suspense but I don't get the interest of watching an inshore race on a TV screen. You just don't see what's going on in term of strategy, the presenters tend to spout irrelevant stuff and you end up feeling you lost a few hours of your life!

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How about the return of the Snark?

Uniformly built with no modifications allowed, affordable with a matched sail.  Rich and poor competing equally.

SnarkSailboat.jpg

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13 minutes ago, Black Jack said:

How about the return of the Snark?

Uniformly built with no modifications allowed, affordable with a matched sail.  Rich and poor competing equally.

SnarkSailboat.jpg

i think until we have both windwar and leewarrd pacific proas in the Olympics, it aint truly saili g

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50 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

i think until we have both windwar and leewarrd pacific proas in the Olympics, it aint truly saili g

The tactics would be interesting and they would have to determine how priorities work during shunting!

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17 hours ago, Panoramix said:

TBH I only follow the Olympics from a distance and hadn't realised that there had been such a swing! I mainly remember people moaning that they were too light except in 470. I know it is now old but the weight of some star sailors was a bit ridiculous, you don't find many 100kg French athletes!

3 person mixed sportboat with an overall weight limit would probably allow people of all shapes to compete fairly (light helm + divide the weight between the 2 crews 1 heavy + 1 light or 2 medium). I was excited to see that offshore was in but it is now out so my point of view probably doesn't matter as I won't follow closely. I like following a multi day offshore race on a tracker as there is lot of suspense but I don't get the interest of watching an inshore race on a TV screen. You just don't see what's going on in term of strategy, the presenters tend to spout irrelevant stuff and you end up feeling you lost a few hours of your life!

Agree.

 

Offshore 2 day endurance would have been a real Olympic event in my opinion and represent an important part of bthe sport. Can you imagine 48 hours of little sleep and full out racing, man and woman......the visuals as they come to the finish would be Marathonesque. 

Alas it is not to be.

A 3 person sport boat with mixed light and heavy crew combinations would be a worthy replacement but practically speaking I dont see which class that would be.

 

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1 minute ago, Panoramix said:

Probably the biggest guys we can find, they still seem lightweight when facing the all blacks!

The French front row is heavier than the ABs. (see the link)

I spent a couple of months in Southern France in 2018. There seemed to be a lot of larger guys, taller women. (Maybe they breed 'em bigger in the south. ;))

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2 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

The French front row is heavier than the ABs. (see the link)

I spent a couple of months in Southern France in 2018. There seemed to be a lot of larger guys, taller women. (Maybe they breed 'em bigger in the south. ;))

Didn't know this... My sister married a guy from Toulouse and I am definitely lightweight compared to him (may be nearly 20kg less). It might actually be true that they are heavier as they tend to like meat a lot whereas in Brittany we eat more fish, potatoes and apples than they do.

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3 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

A 3 person sport boat with mixed light and heavy crew combinations would be a worthy replacement but practically speaking I dont see which class that would be.

Don't know either but so many sportsboats have been designed that there must be one that fits the bill!

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27 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

Didn't know this... My sister married a guy from Toulouse and I am definitely lightweight compared to him (may be nearly 20kg less). It might actually be true that they are heavier as they tend to like meat a lot whereas in Brittany we eat more fish, potatoes and apples than they do.

   I've read that the average size of French men went down very significantly during the Napoleonic wars (3cm?), as a result of the deaths of many big strong guys recruited to his armies. This is claimed to have a legacy today in the gene pool and beyond (it's only been about eight generations). I've also read that much of the initial recruitment was from the "ocean" regions- around Vendee, Cherbourg, Brest etc.  If true it might have distorted that region's demography even more, since the effect on the nation's whole might be unevenly distributed.

 I'm far from convinced this all adds up as an explanation- the timelines, geography, politics, genetics etc look pretty tenuous to me, well into urban myth territory, but it might be an interesting bit of research to read more about, either to confirm the impact or to shoot down the story :-)

Cheers,

             W.

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I really enjoy reading and researching the history and achievements of our past Olympic greats in all sports.Stating the obvious the Equipment cost of Sailing has and is going to continue to favour the wealthy countries which automatically puts it at odds with the Olympic ethos.In the past the Keelboat classes such as Stars,Dragons and 5.5 Metres were largely owned and campaigned by well healed businessmen due to the then sponsorship restrictions.While it might have been well intentioned I think the 2 handed keelboat concept was essentially doomed before it started.

I can’t recall which Olympic Yachting person stated something along the lines that a poorer nation can send a lot of Track and Field Athletes along to the Olympics with their spikes for the same cost of a single class yachting campaign.

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1 hour ago, Panoramix said:

Don't know either but so many sportsboats have been designed that there must be one that fits the bill!

It has to be a WS class that has hosted a world championship per IOC.

There are three:

Melges 20 _ Too expensive IMO and probably 3-4 person

SB20 - Probably an okay option . Bit heavy and old fashioned.  Not even sure if still in production.

Viper 640 - Probably an excellent option but all rights are controlled by the owners class association. The owners almost certainly dont want their boat as an Olympic class because they love the amateur only sailing with no paid pros allowed.  The website suggests that 540-570 lbs is the right crew weight which is perfect for heavy guy, woman and average guy.   But again, we have a lot of Vipers around here (in CT) and they will not want to be an Olympic class and see costs go up.

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31 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

SB20 - Probably an okay option . Bit heavy and old fashioned.  Not even sure if still in production.

SB20 doesn't look that bad, a keelboat is never going to be as lively as a 49er so a bit heavier won't matter. It seems that there are some with 4 crews onboard, to make it more inclusive of all nations, they could say at least one woman, one woman, no limit on crew number weight limit as per class (270 kg) or may be a bit lower and that allows a lot of options depending on athletes weight.

 

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2 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

It has to be a WS class that has hosted a world championship per IOC.

There are three:

Melges 20 _ Too expensive IMO and probably 3-4 person

SB20 - Probably an okay option . Bit heavy and old fashioned.  Not even sure if still in production.

Viper 640 - Probably an excellent option but all rights are controlled by the owners class association. The owners almost certainly dont want their boat as an Olympic class because they love the amateur only sailing with no paid pros allowed.  The website suggests that 540-570 lbs is the right crew weight which is perfect for heavy guy, woman and average guy.   But again, we have a lot of Vipers around here (in CT) and they will not want to be an Olympic class and see costs go up.

Isn't the list longer than just three? We've already mentioned other classes like the J/80.

Anyhow, in my view the Finn is more likely to be reinstated than a keelboat. (And if it is, it will be a political move by the many traditionalists.)

I accept the most likely outcome is to be the dividing of the mixed kiteboarding event into male/female events.

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37 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Isn't the list longer than just three?

The list is here. https://www.sailing.org/classesandequipment/keelboat/index.php

J80 is not a planing sport boat for Olympics. It is basically a keel boat with assym .  More likely is the J70 which is a large class and planes much more readily

The obvious boat really is the Viper.   It is sailed by women. Its a keel boat but it planes easily downwind so more exciting and much more tactical than traditional keel boats .  It can accommodate a heavy guy by making the requirement 3 crew and mixed so they replace 2 girls by a heavy guy. Lots of crew combinations that work for weight.  BUT

38cr_190729mm_40651.thumb.jpg.8130276f178f9f2aaaf699f650bacab3.jpg

But......I very much doubt the class officials would allow the boat to be selected.   They are very passionate about the mission of the class to bring performance sailing to the grass roots of sailing. A lot of very good sailors race in the class, but they emphasize fun and nobody paid to be there.  If it became an Olympic Class it might affect the atmosphere in the class.

Personally I think there are a variety of ways they could maintain their grass roots feel and become a Olympic Class for Paris.   I expect post Paris there would be a major reshuffle anyway.

Again, my first choice would be to keep the offshore 48 hour race. I hope they dont give up on trying to get that in.

 

 

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20 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

Again, my first choice would be to keep the offshore 48 hour race. I hope they dont give up on trying to get that in.

Unlikely for 2024. I think the opportunity to develop the event has passed. WS ran out of time.

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33 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

More likely is the J70

My bad. I meant the J/70 as mentioned earlier.

 

4 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

It has to be a WS class that has hosted a world championship per IOC.

There are three:

...there are more than three. :) 

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2 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

My bad. I meant the J/70 as mentioned earlier.

 

...there are more than three. :) 

1. Suitable for mixed gender

2. Reasonably contemporary planing keel boat

3. Max of 3 people (because IOC has restriction on number of athletes).  Max length around 20' for easy to manage.  Finally as an afer thought, the ability to ramp launch might be handy.

J70, Melges 20, Viper 640, SB20.

Again, I just came to this conclusion if there is an urge to preserve a keel boat in the Olympics.

I have already talked about the other options include the Moth...and dividing the kite foilers into M and F divisions.

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4 hours ago, Panoramix said:

SB20 doesn't look that bad, a keelboat is never going to be as lively as a 49er so a bit heavier won't matter. It seems that there are some with 4 crews onboard, to make it more inclusive of all nations, they could say at least one woman, one woman, no limit on crew number weight limit as per class (270 kg) or may be a bit lower and that allows a lot of options depending on athletes weight.

 

Yes.  Checks many boxes.  Smaller than I remember so worth consideration.

The IOC requirement would insist on mixed crew and limit of 3. So bring a heavy guy which is also good because they are complaining of being excluded.

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1 hour ago, EYESAILOR said:

Yes.  Checks many boxes.  Smaller than I remember so worth consideration.

The IOC requirement would insist on mixed crew and limit of 3. So bring a heavy guy which is also good because they are complaining of being excluded.

I think that it would also be quite good for grassroot sailing as the technical and financial entry level is much lower than for a Star or a Soling.

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Wildcard option:

International 12 meter

Huge international presence, existing/active world championship, look great on TV, and there's enough sitting in boneyards or rotting at anchor that even a poor country could compete by restoring an older model Jamacan Bobsled style. I see a turn-key one on Yachtworld today for $170,000

Probably would have to drop the double-handed requirement.

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Diam 24.  There's plenty in France already, apparently a recognised international class, and a pseudo world presence.  It's modern, accessible to young and old, and a innovative twist on the "keelboat" angle.

A lack of world championships may be an issue... not sure if they've had one.

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Kind words about the Viper.  As retired class Chairperson, thank you.

I no longer speak on behalf of the class so take my comments as a Viper owner not a class officer. 

We are a great boat for mixed gender teams but I would be surprised if the Viper (or any sport boat) was on World Sailing's short list for an Olympic Class. 

As to women sailing Vipers.....we love it.

The image posted above was from the Women's Championship in Palma Spain during the Copa Del Rey prior to Covid. 12 All Women teams from around Europe.   The Women's North American Championship will be this October at Noroton Yacht Club. There are two divisions (i) All women. (ii) Mixed Gender with woman helm.  Our women sailors range from the current 49er team for Australia to the enthusiastic helm at our club, 2 years out of our adult learn-to-sail program. Its all good and all fun.  If you like sailing fast, simple boats and having women in the mix on the racecourse...then you probably like what is happening in our class.  

I'm a big fan of the Olympics. I hope WS finds the right 10th discipline and wish them the best of luck.

 

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9 hours ago, mathystuff said:

As if this was decided by anything but baksheesh.

Is that so? Would you like to provide one iota of evidence that selection of Olympic sailing classes has been decided by bribery?

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Bear in mind that there are only 30 athlete slots allocated to the 10th discipline .

A 2 person boat = 15 competitors

A 3 person boat (Modern version of the Soling) = 10 entrants

15 boats offshore might have been interesting. 10-15 boats on an inshore course is going to seem a little light.  The other 2 person classes have slots for 20 -25 boats I believe.

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Tip and Shaft is bringing up the nasty politics today:

Quote

Obviously, this sum of arguments and answers provided to the IOC was not enough. Why ? Solicited by Tip & Shaft , the Olympic body did not wish to explain itself , sticking to its press release of December 7. Most of our interlocutors point the finger at one man: the Singaporean Ser Miang , former vice-president of World Sailing, claimed opponent of ocean racing, who currently heads the IOC's finance commission. "What happened is that only one person managed to go against a democratic process, a person who probably occupies the most powerful post of the Olympic Committee after that of President and probably has the ambition to succeed Thomas Bach [IOC President] when the latter takes over in 2025 " , regrets one of the our interlocutors. 
  
Our representative of an Asian federation goes further: "The real story is that Ser Miang does not know anything about ocean racing, he was not even a great sailor, only participating in minor championships, he's just a politician who supported Quanhai Li's campaign for President of World Sailing. France supported ocean racing and Kim Andersen[ex president of the international federation, Editor's note] against Quanhai Li, so he is against France and against ocean racing. "  A Quanhai Li who has so far been fairly discreet on the issue  Tip & Shaft him submitted a list of questions about his relationship with Ser Miang and his position on the matter, so far unanswered. 
  
Another source inside World Sailing points to a personal revenge by Ser Miang against Kim Andersen , a staunch supporter of offshore racing, which had filed complaints against the Singaporeanfor breach of ethics during the electoral process for the presidency of World Sailing. "I spoke to Ser Miang, it is clear that he is absolutely opposed to ocean racing, but I have not managed to understand the root cause , wonders the commission member of World Sailing pre. -Cité. It can actually be a revenge against Kim Andersen, unless he believes in good faith that this event is bad for the Olympics. " 

more than the Safari snip and trans linked here

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13 hours ago, Mambo Kings said:

Bear in mind that there are only 30 athlete slots allocated to the 10th discipline .

A 2 person boat = 15 competitors

A 3 person boat (Modern version of the Soling) = 10 entrants

15 boats offshore might have been interesting. 10-15 boats on an inshore course is going to seem a little light.  The other 2 person classes have slots for 20 -25 boats I believe.

or 30 Finns... ;) :lol:

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On 4/23/2021 at 12:20 AM, Panoramix said:

I think that it would also be quite good for grassroot sailing as the technical and financial entry level is much lower than for a Star or a Soling.

Soling are cheap right now if you want to get into them. The problem is masts are down to a single manufacturer in carbon who will only build in batches.

Put a trapeze on a Soling, get rid of droop hiking and you have a very attractive mixed crew with real offshore ability. It's probably too backwards looking though.

I do think that one class should be representative of where the majority of the sport is in terms of keel boat racing is so that it is relatable for all the can racers. For me the pinnacle at the moment is the TP-52 so the Olympic class should be a planing asymmetric probably with a trapeze

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The shortlist is finalised....check the link for the submissions that were denied.Pretty clear that WS will not accept the Finn under any circumstances....despite every good reason for its continued inclusion. Larger sailors are the pariahs of the sport.

https://www.sailing.org/news/90924.php?fbclid=IwAR102_zBU4_sMVlA1HGt7U5_I5EI8f5g8wtH4C9LqXrfN-WEFQotC4lPQkc#.YIyFHukzbRZ
The World Sailing Board and President approved three alternative event proposals in the 30 April 2021 Board Meeting. These are:
- Individual Men's and Women's Kiteboard Events - Formula Kite
- Individual Men's and Women's Two Person Dinghy Events - 470
- Mixed Team Racing - ILCA 6

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1 hour ago, Couta said:

The shortlist is finalised....check the link for the submissions that were denied.Pretty clear that WS will not accept the Finn under any circumstances....despite every good reason for its continued inclusion. Larger sailors are the pariahs of the sport.

 

So much for the Body Positivity Movement!!!  We need an Instagram Influencer!!!

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On 4/19/2021 at 9:03 PM, EYESAILOR said:

I still think the options come down to :

  • Split the kites into M and F.  Alternatively add mixed gender freestyle.
  • Split the 470 into M and F  (Bit of a yawn and 470 actually makes a great mixed gender boat)
  • Add an Intl One Design Foiling Moth.
  • Add a mixed gender small sport boat

Team Racing would be great but is probably out.

Well the three options have narrowed to

Kites M/F

470 M/F

Team racing.   They got around the issues we identified with team racing by going for singlehanded 2 vs 2.

My money is on Kites and then Team racing.

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The big beneficiary of the kite proposal is actually the Laser discipline and the # of countries that can participate.

The kite proposal does not propose any additional kite sailors. The 40 mixed gender kite relay sailors simply split into 2 disciplines of 20 each.  

That leaves the 40 athletes formerly allocated to offshore to be reallocated and the proposal suggests adding 20 Lasers each to men and women.  That is a significant change . The Laser had been 35 and 45 for Tokyo but falling to 25 and 25 for Paris, now would jump back to 45 for each class, adding about 80% more countries that can participate in the sailing. 

ILCA will be fully behind the kite proposal and warm to the team racing proposal (also another 30 lasers).

Both kites and team racing can score on innovation, expense and accessibility

In contrast the 470 proposal is weak on innovation and doesnt check many boxes.  

The kite relay is kind of a dumb format, so that will also weigh.

My odds scoring:

#1 M/F kites

#2 Team Racing (I like the idea)

#3 .......and well behind the other 2 proposals , M/F 470s.

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Upon reflection, here is how I rank the chances of selection...in reverse order

#3.   Split 470 into M/W divisions.  The proposal is well written and highlights all the advantages of the 470 with its well established pathway from youth sailor to Olympics in 60 countries. It is also a boat which rewards tuning skills. It represents mainstream dinghy sailing .  However from an IOC viewpoint  (i) The 470 has been sold to then as a good mixed gender discipline (ii) The class has been in the Olympics since 1976 so its claim to innovation is not strong. (iii)  It is not as exciting and fast as the 49er.  as a 2 person boat.  It is not as exciting to watch for the ordinary viewer as  kite boards  (iii) WS have already chosen to drop M/W in favor of mixed and its harder to back track .  The proposal has powerful support from China and Japan. It doesnt come with endorsement's from smaller nations 

#2  Team racing.  Adding a team event to a sport fits with the Summer Olympics which has team versions of many individual events.  It's an innovation and it is popular with youth and college sailors. However, I think 2 boat team racing might not resonate as an olympic sport.  "Last boat Loses" is not a great concept to most sports selectors, they like to see a winner win vs a loser lose.  Nor is 2 boat team racing the mainstream of the spot of team racing. The Laser is not such a great team racing boat.   Good proposal but I note the lack of support/endorsement from any sailing federations. Chairperson of events cttee supports it.

#1 Kite boarding.  Not only does it not require additional athletes but it frees up athletes. It replaces a mixed relay which was alwasy going to be a difficult event. It frees up athletes for the Laser (and others) which allows more nations to participate.  Its considered an innovative and exciting part of the sport. The proposal is supported by a bunch of smaller nations.

On balance I suspect that the Kite Boarding is the most likely.  Team Racing has very narrow support. 470 has tons of political support but I think it is a difficult sell to IOC

 

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thanks for the appraisal, eyesailor. Once again sounds like politics-- "Chairperson of events cttee supports it;" Asian support; is more important than Sailing Federation support. 

Well, at least looks like I am not tempted into regaining interest in Olympic sailing, and can keep the focus on home waters ;) 

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2 hours ago, stief said:

thanks for the appraisal, eyesailor. Once again sounds like politics-- "Chairperson of events cttee supports it;" Asian support; is more important than Sailing Federation support. 

Well, at least looks like I am not tempted into regaining interest in Olympic sailing, and can keep the focus on home waters ;) 

I dont think the Chairperson has as much influence as we would think.  The Chairperson of events committee also supported Match Racing in a 4 person keel boat . What was he/she thinking? It was rightly rejected by the board. If the Chair had any influence, it probably waned when showing this lack of a clue about IOC criteria.  .

The board also rejected no less than 6 submissions of varying types which would have brought back the Finn and its powerful political lobby. It shows a fair amount of independence from politics thus far.

The board also had to reject three proposals for 2 person mixed keel boat racing.  This will mean that the Olympics will continue from Tokyo with no keelboat discipline .   Sadly, all three were flawed proposals.  One proposed the Star as a mixed keelboat discipline (Seriously the Star is not and was never a design for mixed gender.  )     The other two proposed match racing. One in the Far East 28.....proposed by FE28 Class Association....too expensive. The third was from Bermuda which suggested a 2 person mixed gender keel boat match racing with the class to be determined to best suit the event. The board rejected saying it didnt meet IOC criteria. Im not sure why, probably because the proposal was not specific enough.

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The strongest put together proposal by far was the Kites.  It is really well written and addresses the IOC criteria point by point with supporting appendix. It was submitted by the Kite Association and no less than 10 MNAs(country sailing federations) ranging from St Kitts, and Mexico and Denmark . 

  They brilliantly hit home a point that the youth kite champions gold and silver were won by two developing nations (Dominican Repubic and Philippines) who have never been able to medal in sailing Olympics before (IOC LOVES accessibility).  The whole look of kite-boarding , and the less elitist feel is something that the IOC will be drawn to.  

The 470 class will be able point out lots of strong points about accessibility, including that they have national class associations in 49 countries including developing nations such as Pakistan, Phillipines etc and their junior championships include a wide range of countries ,  But at the end of the day:

A foiling kite board costs a lot less than a 470

It is not as technical ......the wealthy nations spend a lot of money on trying to get a faster 470. 

An athlete can put his foiling kite board in a bag and throw it on a plane.

The foiling kite proposals releases athletes to the other disciplines. The 470 proposal would need the 40 additional athletes from the offshore keel boat.

But mostly......what the kiteboard offers to the IOC is this:

 The IOC will not reject a kiteboarding proposal. The visuals and the message about accessibility are compelling.  2.10 in the video...the "olympic dream" as it should be......not a pro sailor backed by millions from the lottery fund but a kid on a beach who dreams of going to the Olympics and winning a medal for one of the poorest countries in the world. The IOC are going to love this stuff.

It certainly does not hurt that it is eminently suited for television

Sailing will go from the bottom of television ratings to having one of the more attractive visuals . WS is struggling financially and they will regard the funding impact if you have a discipline that screens well.

So Kites is probably the obvious choice but WS have screwed this up two times before.