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Which Class will replace the offshore double hander in Olympics


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1 hour ago, Couta said:

Stick the proverbial fork in it...Sailing in the Lympix is done. WS is the forelock tugging slobbering lackey of the IOC and has no relevance to the grass roots of the sport. It's last grasp struggle for relevance was the ridiculous claim that foiling windsurfers, boards & kites were part of their community....and both groups called bullshit on that. We've seen issues of "gender representation equality" used to squeeze the sport into uncomfortable compromises, when the real reason is the IOC's need for televisual, marketable, simple, sexy, packaged events.....it's an events marketing business!! Foiling windsurfers, boards & kites, with young hot bods and bikinis is what they want...and what the IOC wants ..it gets.

I think most of those requirements can be met with womens beach volleyball. Or sailing doodles.

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Get sailing out of the olympics and nobody will notice.

Get sailing out of the Olympics and sailing will improve.

And there in lies the problem (in my opinion) with the Olympics.   Professionalism.  Why must it be a career to get into the Olympics and keep it going each cycle.  The AC is doing the same thing, try

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22 hours ago, Looper said:

I think one aspect being overlooked is the IOC's requirement for FRAND (Fair, responsible and Non-Discriminatory) access to equipment.  Those that follow the laser class saw what happened when the class had to allow more builders access to making Lasers by changing fundamental rules.  You really think J-boats is going to allow the J70 to be built by "whomever"? 

 

3 hours ago, The Dark Knight said:

Didn't they do that with the J/24?

I'm pretty sure the J Boats has always asserted control over who builds their boats.

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17 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

WS does represent women sailors as well as men.

WS does represent kite sailors and board sailors as well as keel boat and off shore racing.

Sailing is a broad activity and Olympics is just a small part of it where athleticism is an important component 

 

WS doesn't represents sailors at all...(the exception may be for a very small group of elites in olympic pathway classes) it manages the sport for the benefit of administrators and sponsors (in this case the IOC).

WS made a blatant "grab" for kites & boards that resulted in court action as the representative authorities for these sports rightly claimed that the only reason WS was interested was because of IOC....and as far as offshore racing is concerned, WS is a complete irrelevancy.

Sailing IS a broad activity....but the Lympics is not. The dumping of the Finn saw the last option for powerful athleticism to be represented in our sport. The selection criteria now provides opportunities for athletes under 80kg....who have significant funding (equipment & coaching don't come cheap!). Skinny, rich kids? So much for "Fair, Responsible & Non-discriminatory"! 

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1 hour ago, Couta said:

WS doesn't represents sailors at all...(the exception may be for a very small group of elites in olympic pathway classes) it manages the sport for the benefit of administrators and sponsors (in this case the IOC).

WS made a blatant "grab" for kites & boards that resulted in court action as the representative authorities for these sports rightly claimed that the only reason WS was interested was because of IOC....and as far as offshore racing is concerned, WS is a complete irrelevancy.

Sailing IS a broad activity....but the Lympics is not. The dumping of the Finn saw the last option for powerful athleticism to be represented in our sport. The selection criteria now provides opportunities for athletes under 80kg....who have significant funding (equipment & coaching don't come cheap!). Skinny, rich kids? So much for "Fair, Responsible & Non-discriminatory"! 

I agree with most of the sentiments made, but Finn - the last option for powerful athleticism? Have you seen a 49er, or 470, or nacra, or laser race ever?

I don't understand this obsession with the Finn itt. Is this board populated exclusively by former Star crews who made an oath to never lose weight? Olympic sailing is, currently, the most athletic its been ever.

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I have always been attracted and intrigued by the historic personalities of the Olympic Yachting rather than the classes themselves.The charismatic skippers of the past such as Gold Medalist Bill Northam or the first Australian of the Year Jock Sturrock  make for me fascinating reading with their lives inside and outside of the Olympic arena.The cost of campaigning Keelboats have never been cheap and then normally required the leader or skipper of the team to be a well heeled businessman,patron or entrepreneur.Government money,grant or meaningful support from relevant  western governments are a relatively recent trend.Probably the most interesting Olympian ever for mine is Thailand’s Prince Bira who sailed in 4 Olympics his first in 1956 in Melbourne.He won the New Zealand Grand Prix in 1955.His fascinating life encompassed racism,real wealth,private planes and the highs and lows of the Grand Prix circuit.He is often rated in the top 100 Grand Prix Drivers of All Time.It should be about the people and personalities not just the boats.

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42 minutes ago, crashtack said:

I agree with most of the sentiments made, but Finn - the last option for powerful athleticism? Have you seen a 49er, or 470, or nacra, or laser race ever?

I don't understand this obsession with the Finn itt. Is this board populated exclusively by former Star crews who made an oath to never lose weight? Olympic sailing is, currently, the most athletic its been ever.

80kgs is the upper competitive weight limit for every one of these classes...and now every other lympic class. And yes...I've sailed all of these classes (not a nacra) competitively....and your statement about the Finn shows incredible ignorance. My statement highlighted that the only olympic class that accommodates 80+kg athletes and which embodies power, strength, endurance, tactics and skill is the Finn....which is why it has been the longest serving sailing event in the Lympix. And for the record I've chased lympic glory myself..in 470, Soling and FD...and I now own a Finn.

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39 minutes ago, Couta said:

80kgs is the upper competitive weight limit for every one of these classes...and now every other lympic class.

Even if 80kg is the "upper competitive weight", which is a brash overstatement, that weight is perfectly achievable unless you're taller than 6'4" or something.

BA won gold in both lasers and finns - sounds like you just need to go on a diet.

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3 hours ago, Couta said:

80kgs is the upper competitive weight limit for every one of these classes...and now every other lympic class. And yes...I've sailed all of these classes (not a nacra) competitively....and your statement about the Finn shows incredible ignorance. My statement highlighted that the only olympic class that accommodates 80+kg athletes and which embodies power, strength, endurance, tactics and skill is the Finn....which is why it has been the longest serving sailing event in the Lympix. And for the record I've chased lympic glory myself..in 470, Soling and FD...and I now own a Finn.

I'm not sure the exact figures could even be calculated, but males 80kg+ probably represent 75% of the purchasing power of sailing. There should be a class for big fit guys, the keelboat was the only option left.

 

just out of interest, looking at 20 years ago Sydney:

11 medals, let's say you had a full team

females - mistral,europe,470 - 4 sailors

males - mistral, finn, 470 - 4 sailors

"mixed"

laser,tornado,49er,star,soling - 10 sailors.

Calling them "mixed" is clearly a joke, they would all be male. so a full squad of sailors is 18, and less than a 1/4 are female. The mix was 307/95 men:women

 

going to Rio '16

10 medals, 

females -RSx,radial,470,49erFx - 6 sailors

males - RSX, finn,laser 470, 49er - 7 sailors

mixed

nacra - 2 sailors.

so you're squad is now 15, and it's a 8/7 split male/female , and the mix was 217/163 male/female

This is the same format for 2020, and in my mind world sailing has done more than enough to make it gender reflective, females are vastly overly represented at the olympics vs the sailing public. I don't see how boards = 2 medals and keelboats = 0, is a ever going to be a good thing.

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, crashtack said:

Even if 80kg is the "upper competitive weight", which is a brash overstatement, that weight is perfectly achievable unless you're taller than 6'4" or something.

BA won gold in both lasers and finns - sounds like you just need to go on a diet.

Why the hangup on weight in Finns?  Many Gold Cup & national champs are in the 185-195 range.   You know how to trim the mast/sail, do Xfit - you win .   
 

Charlie Buckingham (USA Laser Olympic rep) won US Finn West Coast champs quite handily last Fall.  The conditiions were typical Dago - light to moderate.  Big brahs were off the pace.

I’m going in at 195-200 this year.  Old boat, dacron sails.   Plenty of fun.   Gain weight?   Pfft…

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34 minutes ago, blunderfull said:

Why the hangup on weight in Finns?  Many Gold Cup & national champs are in the 185-195 range.   You know how to trim the mast/sail, do Xfit - you win .   
 

Charlie Buckingham (USA Laser Olympic rep) won US Finn West Coast champs quite handily last Fall.  The conditiions were typical Dago - light to moderate.  Big brahs were off the pace.

I’m going in at 195-200 this year.  Old boat, dacron sails.   Plenty of fun.   Gain weight?   Pfft…

Two things I didnt realize in myv20s:

1. That I woulf end up growing to perfect Star/finn wht of 109kag

2. That both would be removed from the Olympics by the time I would be ready!

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8 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

Two things I didnt realize in myv20s:

1. That I woulf end up growing to perfect Star/finn wht of 109kag

2. That both would be removed from the Olympics by the time I would be ready!

Keep your Laser chops & weight up , wait for a big breezy day and pound the fleet all day long.  Back at the club - you da Man.   Till next time….

Stars are quite the class.   Stick with it.   Learn lots, travel to big regattas.  Cool stuff, smart people - best of both worlds.

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16 hours ago, shebeen said:

This is the same format for 2020, and in my mind world sailing has done more than enough to make it gender reflective, females are vastly overly represented at the olympics vs the sailing public. I don't see how boards = 2 medals and keelboats = 0, is a ever going to be a good thing.

 

 

 

 

There is little point in debating the right balance between men and women at the sailing Olympics because the reality for the purpose of this discussion is that train has already left the station. The IOC has decided unequivocally that the Olympic Games will stand for gender equality.      They decided that they would reach gender equality by 2024 many years ago. It is so woven into the fabric of the Olympics, that it has become part of the Olympic charter . Gender equality is a goal that the IOC have determined that the Olympics stands for : https://olympics.com/ioc/gender-equality . Gender Equality is as important to the IOC as democracy is to the rest of us. It is pointless for sailing to try and change people's mind about this . 

So, you can argue for a heavyweight mens discipline but only at the expense of a mens discipline not at the expense of a womens discipline. It is just a waste of effort.  The IOC stands for gender equality in the same way as they stand for accessibility to athletes from all nations.

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7 hours ago, Treads said:

What about the RS 21? Easy to sail with 3, good all round boat. Goes well up wind and planes earlier than a 70 or 80. Half the price of a J-70 and trailer sails just like it.

Yes earlier in the thread we talked a lot about including a modern mixed gender keelboat. I loved the idea. Gender neutral. Can include heavy guy to compensate for a light woman. Keel boats are such a big part of the sport and there is so many talented athletes . Various people proposed the RS21, the VX One and the Viper 640.   The Bermuda MNA submitted a proposal to the WS board. It was rejected , for fairly reasonable grounds.

The choice now is down to three alternatives.

m/W kites

M/W 470

Team Racing in Lasers.

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20 hours ago, Couta said:

80kgs is the upper competitive weight limit for every one of these classes...and now every other lympic class. And yes...I've sailed all of these classes (not a nacra) competitively....and your statement about the Finn shows incredible ignorance. My statement highlighted that the only olympic class that accommodates 80+kg athletes and which embodies power, strength, endurance, tactics and skill is the Finn....which is why it has been the longest serving sailing event in the Lympix. And for the record I've chased lympic glory myself..in 470, Soling and FD...and I now own a Finn.

The Finn had a glorious run. Its over!  Celebrate rather than mourn.

Paul Elvström sailing his Finn

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Sorry if I missed some posts here, but apparently one reason (the biggest?) for bringing in mixed offshore in, was the huge success of the virtual Vendee and VOR. ESports is becomming more important and will be a demonstration event already in Tokyo and I suppose there could be media benefits by also having the real thing in the games

But if offshore is not an option, I think it would make sense to have separate events for women and men in kiting. The relay was always a compromise. Not a huge fan of kite racing, freestyle is more popular globally, but too late to change now

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7 hours ago, Couta said:

That's hilarious....! 

Hilarious but true.  Its all over their website. Gender equality by 2024.  The IOC sees its mission as encourage women to participate in the highest levels of sport. 

In Atlanta Olympics only 30% of competitors were women. In Tokyo it will be 48%. In Paris it will be 50%.    This is an IOC goal and Sailing has to go along with this.   The merits of the IOC policy can be debated elsewhere.

The offshore keel boat was mixed, crewed by 1 man and 1 woman. It would have been fun.....but IOC has rejected that.

 

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8 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

Hilarious but true.  Its all over their website. Gender equality by 2024.  The IOC sees its mission as encourage women to participate in the highest levels of sport. 

In Atlanta Olympics only 30% of competitors were women. In Tokyo it will be 48%. In Paris it will be 50%.    This is an IOC goal and Sailing has to go along with this.   The merits of the IOC policy can be debated elsewhere.

The offshore keel boat was mixed, crewed by 1 man and 1 woman. It would have been fun.....but IOC has rejected that.

The next meeting is to assess two options put forward AND a revised plan for the mixed keel boat.
 

"World Sailing have now been informed by the IOC that the proposal has continued to be reviewed, consistent with the approach taken for other sports, and challenges for the Mixed Offshore Event exist in the areas of:

  • Field of Play security, scope and complexity, broadcast cost and complexity and World Sailing not having the opportunity to deliver an Offshore World Championship

The IOC will continue their assessment of the Mixed Offshore Event to address these points, however they have requested that World Sailing propose alternative event(s) for sailing's 10th medal at the Paris 2024 Olympic Games."


https://www.sail-world.com/news/237247/2024-Olympic-Mixed-Keelboat-update

That being said, I think the most likely outcome will be the mens/womens Kite option.

---

There needs to be a rethink of how our sport organises the Olympics. Again, the Finn easily checks the boxes. What the response should be is a heavyweight women's category, but there is no time, no class established, and no way that this is an option.

Women's sailing in dire need to improvement - sailing is still a sport where participation is dominated by men.

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19 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Women's sailing in dire need to improvement - sailing is still a sport where participation is dominated by men.

It always has been.The first ever Woman’s only Sailing Medal event was only introduced in 1988 so playing catch up from there.Major  inroads and progress have been made since then.Sailing Olympic Medals and events are now heavily in favour of Woman’s sailors as a percentage of overall gender participation.Not saying that is a bad thing.Longterm female retention rates are quite obviously influenced by external factors such as motherhood,decision to be a stay at home mom and career directions.

Lets not forget the great Paul Elvstrom and his daughter successfully campaigning their Tornado in a male dominated fleet.For me that was a defining moment.

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3 hours ago, Rotnest Express said:

It always has been.The first ever Woman’s only Sailing Medal event was only introduced in 1988 so playing catch up from there.Major  inroads and progress have been made since then.Sailing Olympic Medals and events are now heavily in favour of Woman’s sailors as a percentage of overall gender participation.Not saying that is a bad thing.Longterm female retention rates are quite obviously influenced by external factors such as motherhood,decision to be a stay at home mom and career directions.

Lets not forget the great Paul Elvstrom and his daughter successfully campaigning their Tornado in a male dominated fleet.For me that was a defining moment.

Hmmmm Male retention rates in the sport are also influenced by fatherhood (taking Giles to soccer on Saturdays), decision to accept the promotion and career directions

Men and women who like to sail will find a way.

Paul Elvstrom and Trine were pathfinders

The Finn is not coming back.

Gender equality is mandated.

4 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

The next meeting is to assess two options put forward AND a revised plan for the mixed keel boat.

There are 3 options being considered:

1. M/W 470

2. Team racing in Laser Radials

3. M/W kiteboarding.

The offshore feel boat can be discussed again, but IOC has sent a very strong message that it is unlikely to be chosen

We agree that kites is most likely for all the arguments advanced earlier in the thread. But WS is unpredictable.

For those who recall. In 2011, ISAF proposed introducing Kite sailing at 2016 Olympics. At first it looked like the Star was going but the Stars organized a vigorous opposition. At the May 2012 ISAF meeting the kite was selected and the windsurfer eliminated. The decision was taken and voted on.   The windsurfers mounted a counterattack and had a revote at council in November 2012. The kite was reaffirmedd but a few days later the general assembly overturned that vote. Its was ISAF politics and disorganization at its worst. A decade later it finally looks like kites are going to be in the Olympics.

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21 hours ago, Couta said:
On 5/6/2021 at 11:10 AM, EYESAILOR said:

The IOC stands for gender equality in the same way as they stand for accessibility to athletes from all nations.

That's hilarious....! 

You conveniently missed the comparison....to suggest that the IOC stands for accessibility from all nations....Nobody believes that propaganda. The Lympix was never about accessibility and competition on a level playing field...and to suggest that it's the case in Sailing (of all sports!!)...well, that is just ludicrous. 

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5 hours ago, Rotnest Express said:

Lets not forget the great Paul Elvstrom and his daughter successfully campaigning their Tornado in a male dominated fleet.For me that was a defining moment.

Me too, 4th in the 1984 Olympics, 3rd in the 1985 worlds (Tornado). Not just because Trine was female in her early 20s, but also because Paul was in his late 50s.

This fascination with youth the IOC is pushing is ageist, and would seem to collide with the older average age the sport of sailing has.

While sailing is in the Olympics, and despite some people saying that the Finn will "never" return to the Olympics, there will be those who continue to view the Finn as the most suitable classes for the Olympics, and therefore push for its return. Kind of like what happened with the Star, though I expect the push will be a lot harder.

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1 hour ago, crashtack said:

What I would like to know is how 2-handed offshore got approved as an event only for 2 years later, the committee to say "oh actually, that's going to be a problem." How does that happen?

A failure to plan properly to prevent piss poor performance.

It was complicated, Covid in my view was a minor factor, the failure to plan and many people's different visions was a factor.

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8 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

There are 3 options being considered:

1. M/W 470

2. Team racing in Laser Radials

3. M/W kiteboarding.

Of all these options, I think that the M/W 470 is the best as unlike many other sports truly mixed team make sense (try to mix men and women on a rugby field!) and having a man and a woman on the same boat projects a positive image of sailing as a sport truly open to everybody. Plus the 470 was designed for mixed crew and responsibilities onboard will be shared evenly (woman driving, man doing tactics).

A relay or a team race with boats/kite helmed by different genders is completely missing the point IMHO plus the already hard to understand rules become even more obscure when you do team racing!

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3 hours ago, crashtack said:

What I would like to know is how 2-handed offshore got approved as an event only for 2 years later, the committee to say "oh actually, that's going to be a problem." How does that happen?

It's because the rarefied World Sailing grand Pubars thought that the omnipotent ability to make decision over their subjects transfered to the IOC as well...

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On 5/6/2021 at 3:10 AM, EYESAILOR said:

There is little point in debating the right balance between men and women at the sailing Olympics because the reality for the purpose of this discussion is that train has already left the station. The IOC has decided unequivocally that the Olympic Games will stand for gender equality.      They decided that they would reach gender equality by 2024 many years ago. It is so woven into the fabric of the Olympics, that it has become part of the Olympic charter . Gender equality is a goal that the IOC have determined that the Olympics stands for : https://olympics.com/ioc/gender-equality . Gender Equality is as important to the IOC as democracy is to the rest of us. It is pointless for sailing to try and change people's mind about this . 

So, you can argue for a heavyweight mens discipline but only at the expense of a mens discipline not at the expense of a womens discipline. It is just a waste of effort.  The IOC stands for gender equality in the same way as they stand for accessibility to athletes from all nations.

The IOC link doesn't really say much, does gender equality mean equal opportunity or strict 50:50 athlete quotas?

If it's the latter then rythmic gymnastics and synchronised swimming will surely be in hot water with the IOC. Obviously it's not, and I don't think it's cast in stone that it needs to be 5/5 male/female or 4/4/2 male female/mixed, that's a WS decision.

 

just out of interest, I go to something that seems so unolympic to me.

Shooting. 

15 medals.

looks like they have split their entries 50:50 at 180:180

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_at_the_2020_Summer_Olympics#Medal_summary

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, shebeen said:

The IOC doesn't really say much, does gender equality mean equal opportunity or strict 50:50 athlete quotas?

If it's the latter then rythmic gymnastics and synchronised swimming will surely be in hot water with the IOC. Obviously it's not, and I don't think it's cast in stone that it needs to be 5/5 male/female or 4/4/2 male female/mixed, that's a WS decision.

In this case, gender equality for Olympic classes is driven by the IOC, and enthusiastically promoted by WS.

"Olympic Agenda 2020, the strategic roadmap for the Olympic Movement, commits everyone in the Olympic family to gender balance; and the IOC Gender Equality Review Project is a tangible outcome of this commitment."

Thomas Bach (IOC President, Olympic Champion, HeForShe Champion)

https://stillmed.olympic.org/media/Document Library/OlympicOrg/News/2018/03/IOC-Gender-Equality-Report-March-2018.pdf

 

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20 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

Gender equality is mandated. There are 3 options being considered:

1. M/W 470

2. Team racing in Laser Radials

3. M/W kite

I actually wouldn't mind the idea of teams racing in say Elliott 6s. Make the rule "at least one of each gender per boat" and let the physics sort it out.

Teams racing is quite appealing to watch, and could be presented well on TV, and has a built in audience of participants from school kids to match racers, opti sailors, I think even BICs have embraced it.

And the provision of hardware is not too onerous 

 

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5 hours ago, Potter said:

Genuine question. All the people going on about no class for bigger sailors. Why couldn't they do the Offshore Keelboat? 

The perception by those into international one-design dinghy racing is that offshore keelboat sailing is a similar but a separate branch of the sport of sailing. There are some that do both, but the crossover is surprisingly small in my view.

Because Finn sailing is in the tradition of Elvstrom, Ainslie etc.

Because Finn sailing is more physically challenging.

5 hours ago, Potter said:

Bigger sailors have always been useful in two handed sailing, or is it just that they want a dinghy? 

Neither. There are a number who simply want the Finn - because of the tradition, because of the physical challenges, because the racing is close, because it is established... 

...and because there are a growing number who do not want to use the Olympics to test (or create) new classes, but be a test of classes which already exist.

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8 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

In this case, gender equality for Olympic classes is driven by the IOC, and enthusiastically promoted by WS.

"Olympic Agenda 2020, the strategic roadmap for the Olympic Movement, commits everyone in the Olympic family to gender balance; and the IOC Gender Equality Review Project is a tangible outcome of this commitment."

Thomas Bach (IOC President, Olympic Champion, HeForShe Champion)

https://stillmed.olympic.org/media/Document Library/OlympicOrg/News/2018/03/IOC-Gender-Equality-Report-March-2018.pdf

 

Yes. Spot on Bruce.

The IOC determined that the Olympics will be gender balanced (equal or neutral whatever language you want to choose). They have stated in various places that this is part of the principles of the Olympic Movement.   To quote the IOC President:

"The IOC has an important responsibility to take action when it comes to gender equality – a basic human right of profound importance and a Fundamental Principle of the Olympic Charter"

If WS wants to maintain the sport of sailing as a premier Olympic sport then we (sailors) need to understand what matters to the Olympic movement.  Gender equality really matters to them....a lot.  So presenting a line up that is not gender equal will simply mean an event will be kicked out to make it gender equal.

Another thing that matters to them is diversity of participation. The more countries, especially developing countries that participate in a sport, the more they like it. It is after all meant to be a gathering of sports people from around the world and the number of countries participating has grown significantly in the last 2 decades. Some sports do poorly at this and see their events reduced.  The kite proposal is strongest in this regard, not only because it has medal prospects from countries that do not do well in other Olympic disciplines  but also because it frees up a lot more slots (as many as 35) for the Laser class which means a lot more countries.    

Remember I come from a starting point that I really liked the mixed keelboat offshore race.  I see that as sailing's equivalent of the Marathon to Athletics.   But if the keelboat is dropped, I think kites are the more likely option.....but WS has made strange decisions before.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Bruce Hudson said:

The perception by those into international one-design dinghy racing is that offshore keelboat sailing is a similar but a separate branch of the sport of sailing. There are some that do both, but the crossover is surprisingly small in my view.

Because Finn sailing is in the tradition of Elvstrom, Ainslie etc.

Because Finn sailing is more physically challenging.

Neither. There are a number who simply want the Finn - because of the tradition, because of the physical challenges, because the racing is close, because it is established... 

...and because there are a growing number who do not want to use the Olympics to test (or create) new classes, but be a test of classes which already exist.

I believe Elvstrom favored replacing the Finn with the Contender as an Olympic Class.  The Finn is technical but he thought something faster and more modern (in the 1970s) should be considered.

Crossover between offshore and Olympians:

Ian Walker 2 x silver medalist and winner of the Volvo RTW

Peter Burling Gold medalist and RTW 3rd place

Torben Grael ....5 Olympic medals!!!! and 2 RTW races , including skipper of winning boat.

I agree its a separate category of the sport.  I think there should be at least one keelboat class in the Olympics.....but I truly think it is toast and IOC doesnt want to go for it. No harm in one last presentation. I see they are reducing the course area as part of the new proposal.

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2 hours ago, LCS Carbon said:

I actually wouldn't mind the idea of teams racing in say Elliott 6s. Make the rule "at least one of each gender per boat" and let the physics sort it out.

Teams racing is quite appealing to watch, and could be presented well on TV, and has a built in audience of participants from school kids to match racers, opti sailors, I think even BICs have embraced it.

And the provision of hardware is not too onerous 

 

They only have 30-40 athlete slots for the 10th event.  The Elliot is sailed by three . Each team with 2 boats = 6 per team.  This would result in 6 teams at most. It will never fly with IOC.  Nor should it.

Team sailing is hampered by the number of athlete slots it absorbs. 

Team racing is the best!

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Diversification is the key. I recommend a 3 person Keel boat with a crew that reflects the ethnic religious and sexual diversity of our modern society. Each of the three crew must be from a different ethnic background with one being from the countries first nations people. One must be male, one female and one fluid - but the gender fluid crew can not choose to be male two competition days in a row. At least one must be a of the Islamic faith, one must be either vision or hearing impaired, one must be recovering from PTDS and two of the three must be vegan. Note a crew can choose to 'identify' as any of these groups except for middle aged Caucasian males who are stickily excluded.

 

The Olympic dream should be accessible to anyone. 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Diversification is the key. I recommend a 3 person Keel boat with a crew that reflects the ethnic religious and sexual diversity of our modern society. Each of the three crew must be from a different ethnic background with one being from the countries first nations people. One must be male, one female and one fluid - but the gender fluid crew can not choose to be male two competition days in a row. At least one must be a of the Islamic faith, one must be either vision or hearing impaired, one must be recovering from PTDS and two of the three must be vegan. Note a crew can choose to 'identify' as any of these groups except for middle aged Caucasian males who are stickily excluded.

 

The Olympic dream should be accessible to anyone. 

 

 

Hey LB you certainly are an ideas man.I think you could certainly take the whole Yachting and broader Communities with you on this.Unfortunately being a middle aged white Caucasian male my personal Olympic dream is now shattered but happy to sacrifice that for the greater good.

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54 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

If WS wants to maintain the sport of sailing as a premier Olympic sport then we (sailors) need to understand what matters to the Olympic movement.  Gender equality really matters to them....a lot.  So presenting a line up that is not gender equal will simply mean an event will be kicked out to make it gender equal.

Cancelling the Finn was the solution that WS pursued, and was not the only solution available.

The solutions that WS must apply are in my view 'sticking plaster' solutions. When you look at the International Classes - particularly those that have had a World Championship - there is a considerable gender bias. There are not many classes to draw a women's event from to make into an Olympic class.

The bottom line is that our sport of sailing has done a poor job of developing women's sailing.

It is not a contrary position to support gender equality at the Olympics AND the inclusion of the Finn.

I for one would support greater initiatives to develop greater participation of women.

In my view, countries like New Zealand (my own country) who for the last few Olympics have had Radial sailors qualify, then not send them to the Olympics, which in my view hurts local development of women's sailing. There might be a case of sanctioning New Zealand if they (we) choose to continue such a practice.

World Sailing and class associations in my view needs to develop women's sailing. So far, ILCA and the Laser Radial is the only class I can see that has full representation in sailing - representation in grass roots, provincial, national, regional, world and Olympic racing. There may be other classes - the 470 for example - but overall women's sailing is in a poor condition.

There could be the development of a Finn FX, or a Finn Radial as others have suggested previously. In my view would be an excellent way to have a class for 80 kg plus women sailors - and perhaps balance the testosterone with estrogen at events like the Finn Gold Cup. (...and the more I think about a Women's Finn Gold Cup, the more I like it).

The gender issue remains serious at many levels of our sport.

None of this will be in time for the 2024 Paris Olympics.

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1 hour ago, EYESAILOR said:

Crossover between offshore and Olympians:

Ian Walker 2 x silver medalist and winner of the Volvo RTW

Peter Burling Gold medalist and RTW 3rd place

Torben Grael ....5 Olympic medals!!!! and 2 RTW races , including skipper of winning boat.

I agree its a separate category of the sport.  I think there should be at least one keelboat class in the Olympics.....but I truly think it is toast and IOC doesnt want to go for it. No harm in one last presentation. I see they are reducing the course area as part of the new proposal.

Yes, there is some crossover, though in my view it is surprisingly small. It is sometimes driven by cash offers to Olympians, who view it as a job that helps fund their small boat racing.

The attitude exists, and is summed up by multi Olympic Medal winning Jo Aleh, in my view one of the best sailors to have ever come from New Zealand (male or female). Here's what Aleh said as a teenager, having just won the Tanner Cup in the P-Class, one of the most prestigious junior sailing events in NZ:

Quote

And with the Tanner Cup already in her possession, Aleh said she was aiming for higher honours in the sport.

"I hope to race in the Olympics in the Europe class," she said.

But at this stage she has no desire to compete in the round-the-world race or the America's Cup.

"I like the little boats. Those other ones are a bit too big," she said.

Jo Aleh took over the Chair of World Sailing's Athletes' Commission in November 2020.

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8 hours ago, LB 15 said:

Diversification is the key. I recommend a 3 person Keel boat with a crew that reflects the ethnic religious and sexual diversity of our modern society. Each of the three crew must be from a different ethnic background with one being from the countries first nations people. One must be male, one female and one fluid - but the gender fluid crew can not choose to be male two competition days in a row. At least one must be a of the Islamic faith, one must be either vision or hearing impaired, one must be recovering from PTDS and two of the three must be vegan. Note a crew can choose to 'identify' as any of these groups except for middle aged Caucasian males who are stickily excluded.

 

The Olympic dream should be accessible to anyone. 

 

 

That is SOOOO speciest! We cannot have true equality until we acknowledge the contribution of those that we have relied upon in our relentless march to hegemony! Yes...we have indeed evolved from the ancient oceanic primordial soup...and on that basis alone, swimming...and its natural progression...sailing.... has established its antecedent priority as a lypmix contest...but until we have at least representation from the invertebrates, we can hardly begin to consider the lympix an 'accessible' event.....this oversight is extraordinary, particularly given the demonstrative lack of spine evident within the administrative body!

 

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11 hours ago, LB 15 said:

Diversification is the key. I recommend a 3 person Keel boat with a crew that reflects the ethnic religious and sexual diversity of our modern society. Each of the three crew must be from a different ethnic background with one being from the countries first nations people. One must be male, one female and one fluid - but the gender fluid crew can not choose to be male two competition days in a row. At least one must be a of the Islamic faith, one must be either vision or hearing impaired, one must be recovering from PTDS and two of the three must be vegan. Note a crew can choose to 'identify' as any of these groups except for middle aged Caucasian males who are stickily excluded.

 

The Olympic dream should be accessible to anyone. 

 

 

LB would be a shoe in for the IOC, he should submit his resume immediately.

The essential quality is to be able to state these objectives publicly and then in a dark smoky back room sit down with the world's largest media companies and find out what sells.

I jest because although any political body will have a degree of hypocrisy, I do believe the IOC is genuine in their passion for promoting sport to women.

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11 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Cancelling the Finn was the solution that WS pursued, and was not the only solution available.

The solutions that WS must apply are in my view 'sticking plaster' solutions. When you look at the International Classes - particularly those that have had a World Championship - there is a considerable gender bias. There are not many classes to draw a women's event from to make into an Olympic class.

The bottom line is that our sport of sailing has done a poor job of developing women's sailing.

It is not a contrary position to support gender equality at the Olympics AND the inclusion of the Finn.

I for one would support greater initiatives to develop greater participation of women.

In my view, countries like New Zealand (my own country) who for the last few Olympics have had Radial sailors qualify, then not send them to the Olympics, which in my view hurts local development of women's sailing. There might be a case of sanctioning New Zealand if they (we) choose to continue such a practice.

World Sailing and class associations in my view needs to develop women's sailing. So far, ILCA and the Laser Radial is the only class I can see that has full representation in sailing - representation in grass roots, provincial, national, regional, world and Olympic racing. There may be other classes - the 470 for example - but overall women's sailing is in a poor condition.

There could be the development of a Finn FX, or a Finn Radial as others have suggested previously. In my view would be an excellent way to have a class for 80 kg plus women sailors - and perhaps balance the testosterone with estrogen at events like the Finn Gold Cup. (...and the more I think about a Women's Finn Gold Cup, the more I like it).

The gender issue remains serious at many levels of our sport.

None of this will be in time for the 2024 Paris Olympics.

Thanks for thoughtful response.

I take 2 things away from your comments

1. You support women's sailing and would like to see more done at the grass roots to promote women's sailing 

2. You love the Finn and simultaneously regret the absence of a class for large athletes.

 

Regarding #1.   Of course I agree.  As y'all know I am a woman sailor.  In the US , I sense a welcome increased level of opportunity for women sailors at the local level.   I believe it helps to promote women sailing at both the top and the bottom.   While I am not hung up about exact equality of participation at the Olympics, I do sense that the inclusion of women events and the growth of women events at the Olympics had had a positive impact on women sailing at the grass roots level.  Not least because we have women olympians who can come and speak at clubs and sail at women events.   I was racing Sonars a couple of years ago pre-pandemic and it was a thrill to have women ex olympians on the course and to have a tactics de-brief led by women vs men. 

Do I acknowledge that there are many more men sailors still than women? Yes.  Do I think that the mix needs to be exactly 50:50? Not a strong opinion either way. By tipping the scales, it has certainly promoted women sailing.  What is the right mix to tip those scales?  The advantage of 50:50 is that it is unambiguous.....60:40 is a blur. It probably better reflects participation but it compromises the message.   I truly dont know what the right mix is. But the IOC have made it simple for us.....they have told WS that the gender mix must be exactly equal by 2024.   

Regarding #2 . Do I think that there should be a slot for large athletes ?  Yes I do. The Star sailors and the Finn sailors were and are incredible athletes.      But if there is going to be a role for larger athletes then you have to look away from the Finn.

Your admiration for the Finn does you credit. It has a wonderful history.  I dont think it comes back to the Olympics .  

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11 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

But if there is going to be a role for larger athletes then you have to look away from the Finn.

Thanks for the invitation. Actually, I don't 'have to'. I choose to continue to support having the Finn in the Olympics.

Perhaps one day there will be a class that looks like it provide a similar Olympian test of sailing. If such a class comes to be, let me know.

In the mean-time, again, I choose to support the Finn being in the Olympics.

And I'm not alone.

In my view, it would be great to have a class similar to the Finn for larger athletic women too.

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2 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Thanks for the invitation. Actually, I don't 'have to'. I choose to continue to support having the Finn in the Olympics.

Perhaps one day there will be a class that looks like it provide a similar Olympian test of sailing. If such a class comes to be, let me know.

In the mean-time, again, I choose to support the Finn being in the Olympics.

And I'm not alone.

In my view, it would be great to have a class similar to the Finn for larger athletic women too.

Bruce...I hope my phrasing was not misinterpreted. I didnt mean to suggest you stop supporting the Finn being in the Olympics.  I should have said that "In my opinion, if we want a role for larger athletes in the olympics then we (the collective we) need to look for something other than the Finn."

This is not because I dislike the Finn. I posted that magnificent image earlier in the thread of Paul Elvstrom going flat out in a Finn.  I love the history and the great sailors that have emerged from he Finn Class.

But to have a heavy weight and light weight single handed mens dinghy would need more classes.  Sailing is up against its limit with 10 classes. In addition the Finn is going to seem somewhat dated to the IOC.

I think the best way to provide a role for large men is a double handed class where the ideal weight requires a big guy. I dont have a good suggestion.  I have thought that a small fast planing 2 person modern keelboat might work.  It would have the advantage of maintaining a keelboat category which was excluded for the first time in over 100 years at Rio.  It would be mixed gender.  A large guy would be essential. They are tactical and there is a lot of good sailing in these kinds of boats.  Classes like Viper 640, VX One, SB3, RS20 etc.    The SB3 and Viper are qualified WS classes with world championships. However there were lots of equally good reasons against and WS rejected a match racing mixed gender keel boat proposal from Bermuda.

Again....Bruce I enjoy the discussion.   I think we both agree that in the short term M/W kites is probably the way to go.     For the longer term, I wonder if we need windsurfers but lets not rock the boat.

 

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3 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

Bruce...I hope my phrasing was not misinterpreted. I didnt mean to suggest you stop supporting the Finn being in the Olympics.  I should have said that "In my opinion, if we want a role for larger athletes in the olympics then we (the collective we) need to look for something other than the Finn."

This is not because I dislike the Finn. I posted that magnificent image earlier in the thread of Paul Elvstrom going flat out in a Finn.  I love the history and the great sailors that have emerged from he Finn Class.

But to have a heavy weight and light weight single handed mens dinghy would need more classes.  Sailing is up against its limit with 10 classes. In addition the Finn is going to seem somewhat dated to the IOC.

I think the best way to provide a role for large men is a double handed class where the ideal weight requires a big guy. I dont have a good suggestion.  I have thought that a small fast planing 2 person modern keelboat might work.  It would have the advantage of maintaining a keelboat category which was excluded for the first time in over 100 years at Rio.  It would be mixed gender.  A large guy would be essential. They are tactical and there is a lot of good sailing in these kinds of boats.  Classes like Viper 640, VX One, SB3, RS20 etc.    The SB3 and Viper are qualified WS classes with world championships. However there were lots of equally good reasons against and WS rejected a match racing mixed gender keel boat proposal from Bermuda.

Again....Bruce I enjoy the discussion.   I think we both agree that in the short term M/W kites is probably the way to go.     For the longer term, I wonder if we need windsurfers but lets not rock the boat.

The limit of 10 classes seems so arbitrary.

I'd like to understand how the limit came to be.

Having said that, the 1952 Olympics had 5 classes, the Finn and 4 keelboats.

There is a tradition for keelboats. Keelboats are a huge part of our sport, and it makes no sense to not have at least two.

When sailboarding came along (in 1984), the number of classes stayed at 7. In 1984 there were no women medalists (though Trine Elvstrom was very close with her dad Paul in 4th).

We are trying to squeeze more events into 10. It isn't working.

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13 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

The limit of 10 classes seems so arbitrary.

I'd like to understand how the limit came to be.

Having said that, the 1952 Olympics had 5 classes, the Finn and 4 keelboats.

There is a tradition for keelboats. Keelboats are a huge part of our sport, and it makes no sense to not have at least two.

When sailboarding came along (in 1984), the number of classes stayed at 7. In 1984 there were no women medalists (though Trine Elvstrom was very close with her dad Paul in 4th).

We are trying to squeeze more events into 10. It isn't working.

 

There were 6 classes in 1980.

Then from 1984 to 1996 the classes grew to 10 due to adding windsurfing and adding womens events. Finally grew to 11 events in 2000 when the 49er was added for the Sydney Olympics 

 Sailing got complacent and hung on to 11 events (including 2 keel boat classes) until 2007 when ISAF was told by IOC to reduce the number of events and number of athletes for 2012.  They axed the Tornado.  Its been at 10 ever since.  sailing also got axed in its entirety from the Paralympics .

WS is a troubled organization in many ways including financially but the equipment cttee did reintroduce a multihull (thank god) and has been trying to work out better how to allocate the 10 slots. 

Compared to 2020, the WS faced 2 challenges

1. They needed to move to complete gender equality.   So they dropped the Finn 

2. They needed to include the kites (having failed to include them in 2016 and 2020 and rightly received a lot of criticism).

They dropped the Finn and shfted 470 to a mixed platform which gave them 2 new events to play with. One they allocated to the kite . The other to the mixed offshore event. 

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5 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

In my view, it would be great to have a class similar to the Finn for larger athletic women too.

 Larger?   The priority is smaller: female Radial sailors are giants in the majority of the world!

  I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice... but a future where Olympic sailing has weight classes like boxing or judo seems unlikely :-)

Cheers,

              W.

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