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Which Class will replace the offshore double hander in Olympics


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8 hours ago, Couta said:

If the IOC wanted Altius Citius Fortius...the long lived Finn would continue.

Having watched Kiteboard racing and listened to the athletes 

Kites go higher than any other sailing Olympic discipline

Kites go faster than any other summer Olympic discipline 

Kite boarders are as strong as almost any Olympic athlete.

There are several reasons why I can imagine better choices than kites but an absence of Citius, Altius, Fortius,  "faster, higher, stronger" is not one of those reasons

As an aside - interesting that kites & boards operate largely outside the traditional sport structure - no club houses, no training centres largely off the beach and independent...Yeah  great isnt it? Back to the sheer joy of sailing vs clubs and membership dues etc etc.

how many of the participants are affiliated with MNA's? Amazingly social lot kite boarders and many belong to their national kite boarding association

philkiteassociation

How many contribute to MNAs and WS financially....? A virtual handfull...So unless they're Lympix linked, they are of no value to the MNA's. Not sure what your point is here,  Do the 470 sailors generate revenue for MNAs...I thought it was the other way around.But they are linked to the Olympics and I bet they will attract revenue dollars, lets see how that works.

 

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Get sailing out of the olympics and nobody will notice.

Get sailing out of the Olympics and sailing will improve.

Diversification is the key. I recommend a 3 person Keel boat with a crew that reflects the ethnic religious and sexual diversity of our modern society. Each of the three crew must be from a different

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I find it funny that people talk about WS/IOC killing/ignoring "grassroots" sailing. What do you imagine grassroots sailing is? Because it sure as shit isn't wednesday night beercan racing in j/22s or the hundred-thousand dollar keelboat racing outside of yacht clubs that people seem to be pining for. Boards and kites embody "grassroots" sailing more than any other part of the sport - relatively cheap, can be done recreationally, and are accessible to nearly anyone with a beach and a seabreeze. Treating them like they aren't relevant to sailing development is the peak of boomer delusion.

And even outside of boards, I'd reckon the olympics is, at least in the US, one of the biggest sustainers of youth sailing. The 29er and i420 classes would not exist if they weren't training boats for the 49er/470. Sailors out of college wouldn't have much of a place in the sport if dinghies weren't included in the games.

The most amusing thing to me on SA are the myriads of luddites who screech against anything new being added to any aspect of the sport and then wonder why sailing isn't growing or attracting new generations.

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https://olympics.com/ioc/news/gender-equality-and-youth-at-the-heart-of-the-paris-2024-olympic-sports-programme

This provides good background to IOC's overall approach to sports and events at the 2024 Olympics.

I would highlight:

1. The emphasis on gender equality. Its clearly not up for discussion. 

2. Emphasis on youth focused events

3. Four new sports "showcasing youth focused events which are inclusive, engaging and can be practiced outside conventional arenas"

4. Reduction of number of athletes from 11,100 to 10,500 with bulk of reduction falling on weightlifting and boxing.  Reduction in number of events from 339 to 329 despite adding the new "urban youth sports". This is all about "further reducing the cost and complexity of hosting the Olympic Games " in a "post covid world"

If World Sailing is going to maintain Sailing as one of the enduring Olympic Sports then WS needs to understand how the Olympics is evolving.

Reading this makes me more sure than ever that iif the mixed keel boat offshore is rejected then its going to be kite foiling.  

 

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Seems like the least discussed option: splitting the mixed 470 into men's and women's event narrowly defeated splitting the kite. (Voting was 7 to 6)

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58 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Seems like the least discussed option: splitting the mixed 470 into men's and women's event narrowly defeated splitting the kite. (Voting was 7 to 6)

Its only the events committee recommendation. The Council meeting on the 14th is what counts. Unsurprising that the team racing submission got kicked into the weeds: I can't see it was within a mile of meeting IOC criteria.

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19 minutes ago, JimC said:

Its only the events committee recommendation. The Council meeting on the 14th is what counts. Unsurprising that the team racing submission got kicked into the weeds: I can't see it was within a mile of meeting IOC criteria.

Yes, my bad for leaving out that the meeting was World Sailing's Events committee.

Olympic events start being discussed at 22:00, previous are procedural, including conflicts and abstentions from voting.

Here's the meeting:

 

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3 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

https://olympics.com/ioc/news/gender-equality-and-youth-at-the-heart-of-the-paris-2024-olympic-sports-programme

This provides good background to IOC's overall approach to sports and events at the 2024 Olympics.

I would highlight:

1. The emphasis on gender equality. Its clearly not up for discussion. 

2. Emphasis on youth focused events

3. Four new sports "showcasing youth focused events which are inclusive, engaging and can be practiced outside conventional arenas"

4. Reduction of number of athletes from 11,100 to 10,500 with bulk of reduction falling on weightlifting and boxing.  Reduction in number of events from 339 to 329 despite adding the new "urban youth sports". This is all about "further reducing the cost and complexity of hosting the Olympic Games " in a "post covid world"

If World Sailing is going to maintain Sailing as one of the enduring Olympic Sports then WS needs to understand how the Olympics is evolving.

Reading this makes me more sure than ever that iif the mixed keel boat offshore is rejected then its going to be kite foiling.  

 

My point exactly! At last! The IOC has no attachment to sailing as it has traditionally been presented. Traditional olympic sailing is an expensive dinosaur that costs more money to present than it generates. As a marketable event, it fails to attract eyeballs. Kites, foils & Boards are exactly where the IOC want to go.....all this discussion about classes is missing the big agenda....as I've stated repeatedly, the IOC wants events that are gender balanced, youth focussed...in other words: "Marketable to the Masses" (fast, furious, colourful, athletic & sexy), with low infrastructure costs. The fact that the foils, boards, kites equipment costs are substantially lower, reducing barriers to participant entry and that it has a self supported PRO circuit marketing the sport worldwide helps! So, it's not a matter of IF, but WHEN the IOC prunes sailing as we know it. After the inevitable cull, it'll be Kites Foils & boards that are retained.

With that understood, you'll appreciate that WS is increasingly being dragged away from its constituency as it attempts to hang on to its olympic revenue stream while attempting to satisfy an increasingly dissatisfied traditional membership....and something's gunna give! The steady decline in traditional sailing participation has driven interest in Short Handed sailing. WS has attempted to answer its own problem (thrown the sailing world a bone) by putting forward the 2H Offshore...but it was dead before it was delivered...because it doesn't meet the Marketability criteria that the IOC desperately needs..it goes no way towards "youthful, fast, furious, colourful, athletic & sexy, packaged for media"...best that can say is that it's "gender balanced". So, in summary, the IOC is an Events Organisation that generates revenue from selling "Sport as Entertainment" packages to advertisers (via media outlets). Traditional Sailing does not have Mass Market Appeal. As a legacy lympix sport, some elements of Sailing will be retained but only if they can be on-sold. Which is why Kites, Foils & Boards will stay....the rest is history.

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In a former life I was indirectly involved in the broadcasting and production of Yachting in the 2000 Olympics in Sydney.Doing my research I became intrigued (wife says obsessed) by the the previous characters that had pioneered Olympic Yachting rather than the class of boats.It was pitched to us that the 49er was great saviour that was meant to take exciting visual high speed sailing to the masses via TV and Live via the natural stadium Sydney Harbour was meant to provide to the shore bound public.This was well intentioned  but totally derailed by officials from the IYRU who demanded a perfect sailing environment which destroyed what should have been the start to become a mainstream sport.I sat in on numerous production meetings with all of us just shaking our heads in frustration.Our default high interest high performance class were the Tornados.We engaged a high end Tornado sailor who had missed out on Olympic selection to design some course around TV needs while still creating a fair environment for competitors.We did trial runs with second string 49ers and Tornados and it looked great and was dynamic.I learnt a lot about sailing just being surrounded by and interacting with these great sailors.Visually you could take this product to the masses and those uneducated in the Code and convert them.The powers to be said it was to radical and then decided to move the Tornados offshore away from prying eyes,TV and the General Public.The 49ers had a prohibitive exclusion zone around them.What a lost opportunity that the sport generally will never recover from.Frustrating to say the least.

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6 hours ago, Couta said:

My point exactly! At last! The IOC has no attachment to sailing as it has traditionally been presented. Traditional olympic sailing is an expensive dinosaur that costs more money to present than it generates. As a marketable event, it fails to attract eyeballs. Kites, foils & Boards are exactly where the IOC want to go.....all this discussion about classes is missing the big agenda....as I've stated repeatedly, the IOC wants events that are gender balanced, youth focusedas I've stated repeatedly, the IOC wants events that are gender balanced, youth focused...in other words: "Marketable to the Masses" (fast, furious, colourful, athletic & sexy), with low infrastructure costs. The fact that the foils, boards, kites equipment costs are substantially lower, reducing barriers to participant entry and that it has a self supported PRO circuit marketing the sport worldwide helps! So, it's not a matter of IF, but WHEN the IOC prunes sailing as we know it. After the inevitable cull, it'll be Kites Foils & boards that are retained.

With that understood, you'll appreciate that WS is increasingly being dragged away from its constituency as it attempts to hang on to its olympic revenue stream while attempting to satisfy an increasingly dissatisfied traditional membership....and something's gunna give! The steady decline in traditional sailing participation has driven interest in Short Handed sailing. WS has attempted to answer its own problem (thrown the sailing world a bone) by putting forward the 2H Offshore...but it was dead before it was delivered...because it doesn't meet the Marketability criteria that the IOC desperately needs..it goes no way towards "youthful, fast, furious, colourful, athletic & sexy, packaged for media"...best that can say is that it's "gender balanced". So, in summary, the IOC is an Events Organisation that generates revenue from selling "Sport as Entertainment" packages to advertisers (via media outlets). Traditional Sailing does not have Mass Market Appeal. As a legacy lympix sport, some elements of Sailing will be retained but only if they can be on-sold. Which is why Kites, Foils & Boards will stay....the rest is history.

You partially understand the IOC and start to go in the right direction but reach exaggerated conclusions because you turn what is a worthy objective into a unattractive conclusion as if, somehow, it is wrong to want to grow sport by attracting young people.  

I suspect in real life you are very positive about young people but you come across as somewhat anti-youth with this post.

I am less of a cynic.

I think the IOC have worthy goals.  I think they want to keep sailing in the Olympics. I think kites help them keep all sailing in the Olympics.

The IOC televise the games to pay for it and also so that sports fans can watch it.

 

 

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10 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Seems like the least discussed option: splitting the mixed 470 into men's and women's event narrowly defeated splitting the kite. (Voting was 7 to 6)

At events committee. This is short sighted and I really hope it is not the final recommendation because it will show that they are totally out of tune with  the IOC .

They have been promising to introduce the kites since 2007, and they just cannot bring themselves round to doing it properly.

The 470 is a great gender mixed platform.

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Another stray thought:

What if National Authorities or International Class Associations offered "Olympic Ranking" for competitors in classes that *might*--MIGHT, no matter how unlikely-- one day be considered as an official event?

(Was thinking how many of the recent VG competitors deserved and 'qualified' for achieving Olympic goals in a non-olympic event)

Sorry, OT. Back to the minutes of the latest meetings.

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10 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Seems like the least discussed option: splitting the mixed 470 into men's and women's event narrowly defeated splitting the kite. (Voting was 7 to 6)

The IOC asked WS to submit two alternate events.  It seems to me that equipment committee narrowed it down to Kites and 470s.   Their preference was narrowly 7  to 6 but I believe that what happens if this is confirmed by WS council is that council can make a recommendation......and latest indication is that they will continue to recommend mixed offshore but that IOC will in this case make the final decision.

Is that how others see it?

If the WS recommendation was 11  - 2, then I think IOC would have to consider the recommendation very carefully. Where the recommendation is essentially equal, it gives the IOC a lot of discretion. 

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There were a couple of interesting points made in the equipment committee by Dina regarding the choice between splitting the 470 and splitting the kites. 

To paraphrase, she basically said how the IOC needs us to try and make our events represent more of a 'beach lifestyle' that will appeal to youth, and how coverage of the 470 (I took this to mean traditional sailing) isn't going to generate the participation necessary to satisfy the IOC

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11 hours ago, Couta said:

Traditional olympic sailing is an expensive dinosaur

Not really.  No stadium, just a smallish marina that is usually about the only Olympic facility to actually be useful when the games have gone, instead of being a white elephant like all the others. 

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3 hours ago, greenwhiteblack said:

There were a couple of interesting points made in the equipment committee by Dina regarding the choice between splitting the 470 and splitting the kites. 

To paraphrase, she basically said how the IOC needs us to try and make our events represent more of a 'beach lifestyle' that will appeal to youth, and how coverage of the 470 (I took this to mean traditional sailing) isn't going to generate the participation necessary to satisfy the IOC

I missed that as I skipped through the presentation.

I thought the 2 pitches were rather dry but kites seemed factually more compelling to me.

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8 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

I missed that as I skipped through the presentation.

I thought the 2 pitches were rather dry but kites seemed factually more compelling to me.

I think it makes more sense to split up the kite event so that it is not in a relay format, and keep the 470 as a mixed gender event.

The mixed relay always seemed like a weak way to shoehorn gender balance into the event, whereas having mixed crew on a 2-person dinghy makes perfect sense.

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Points made by Kite Rep

1. Kites are affordable. A kite with a quiver of 3 sails and foils costs MNA approx 5,500 Euros.

2. Universality. Kite foiling has already brought in athletes and nations to win world championships that have not previously been successful in the Olympics including the first non-white person to win a WS sanctioned championship 

Rationale for separating the event is that it allows smaller countries who have only got a boy or girl but not both, to participate, with specific example of talented kid from Antigua.

Above all, looked at for benefit of sailing as a whole. Splitting the kite is only proposal that releases athlete slots to the other classes. In particular the lower IOC athlete limit has forced the Laser class to reduce the number of participants to 25....which has excluded a lot of nations who previously sailed in the Olympics. The kite proposal allows Lasers to go back up to 40 entries .

3. Wide range of body weights,

Points made by the 470 Class Representative

1. 470 also has many countries that participate. 13 countries have won Olympic medals in the 470 since 2004.

2. Olympics should not only be about universality but also showcasing the different styles of the sport.

2. The 470 is different from other Olympic classes because they have symmetrical kite, ability to customize the boat and the physicality of rule 42.  The 470 preserves a style that is lost as more and more new classes come in

 

Neither of them touched very much on the IOC goal of more youth focused , less infrastructure demanding sports. 

 

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14 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

I think it makes more sense to split up the kite event so that it is not in a relay format, and keep the 470 as a mixed gender event.

The mixed relay always seemed like a weak way to shoehorn gender balance into the event, whereas having mixed crew on a 2-person dinghy makes perfect sense.

I agree.

The kite event sounds rather daft.

The 470 is a great class for M+W. It mirrors the type of boats that many couples used to sail. The 470 presenter actually made a small gaffe here. He was trying to illustrate how the boat could accomplish a wide range of weights and he remarked on how in championships  the boat is often sailed by married couples or brother+sister......and my mind went "Yup....that doesnt help your cause"

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The proposed scoring for the adult Olympics is the same with qualifying series leading to 8 finalists going to semi final and then final.  The final is based on first athlete to win 3 races....thus the last race is won by the gold medalist.

Sadly, thus far, they are not proposing to have the obstacles on the course. I think it would be interesting to include the obstacles.

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On 5/11/2021 at 5:30 AM, EYESAILOR said:

 

1. The emphasis on gender equality. Its clearly not up for discussion. 

 

 

I see by gender equality they mean 50:50 athlete numbers. that's gender parity in my books, and not the same thing, but it looks like a lot of sports are going to try and cut it 50:50 on their entry lists already. this will have some weird consequences with some interesting athletes making up the quotas. Personally I'd prefer the focus to be on equal access and not strictly just a window dressing tickbox on the numbers. ie. Focus on quality programmes for 40% female athletes rather than just mandate 50% and say it's all sorted.

 

image.thumb.png.e986b6988cdb3b50e6ebb3aafefe8059.pngwow breaking...

 

 

 

Interesting that boxing is now (greatly reduced and) gender equal. This is just too forced, putting the point of boxing as a sport in the 21st century aside, it is just never ever going to be a 50/50 participation sport at grassroots level or above. 

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Yes we remarked on the example of boxing.  I’m trying to think of there are sports with higher women participation than men that could be used to balance gender.

 

Anyway sailing has been designated as a 50:50 sport. 
 

It will be interesting to see if roles for women sailors emerge post Olympics.  I see that Sail GP is looking at including a woman crew member. 
 

 

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19 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

You partially understand the IOC and start to go in the right direction but reach exaggerated conclusions because you turn what is a worthy objective into a unattractive conclusion as if, somehow, it is wrong to want to grow sport by attracting young people.  

I suspect in real life you are very positive about young people but you come across as somewhat anti-youth with this post.

I am less of a cynic.

I think the IOC have worthy goals.  I think they want to keep sailing in the Olympics. I think kites help them keep all sailing in the Olympics.

The IOC televise the games to pay for it and also so that sports fans can watch it.

 

 

Pretty condescending opening statement...and your opinion might count more if you gave some personal background to validate your comments. As for me...I'm a 3 time olympic rep contender who has deep connections into the sport as competitor, administrator and industry leader. I've been involved internationally for over 30 years and count amongst my personal friends coaches, MNA administrators and the Australian IOC ceo & chef de mission. The views are mine alone and they have been formed in a lifetime of commitment to our sport....and my previous involvement as Australian Team Manager for Canoeing...a sport that along with sailing, delivers more olympic medals per competitor than any other for Australia (swimming does well but it has more events & competitors). Professionally I have been involved in sports marketing for over 25 years.....so yes.....I do have insights into the real drivers behind the decisions made by IOC. You call me a "cynic" and my views "Exaggerated" ......others might fairly call them informed and insightful. I am very positive about young people...which is exactly why I now question whether the olympic myth is healthy for our young athletes....I've seen the damage done to the mental health, not just of those cast aside as they "fail" to achieve the "dream" but those that make the grade only to find how hollow the victory is...and struggle to deal with it. The sport is in trouble. Participation is declining. There have never been more recruits into junior programs. Never fewer who continue within the sport. The model is broken and WS is so focussed on the IOC that they cannot see a solution beyond "hanging in there and hoping for the best". That coverage of the events subcommittee tells the story....confused, self congratulatory and missing the bigger issue as they try and placate the IOC that doesn't want them. The IOC is a Marketing organisation made up of very entitled individuals with huge self interest at their core. The Olympics (gravy train) is in trouble. They need to re-invent themselves to retain relevance. Their answer is to refocus and slim down the offering - gender balanced, youth focussed and tele-visual with global appeal (mass marketable). Fail on any of these criteria and you'll be shown the door..

So, it's said: "opinions are like assholes...everyone has one". I've given you mine and a bit of an idea where it comes from.... I'm sure some here would like to see what yours is based on....

 

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5 hours ago, Couta said:

I've given you mine and a bit of an idea where it comes from

Appreciated. Have always read your posts with interest.

FWIW, gave up on involvement in IOC boat selection--some kind of sailboard--back in the 80s. Realized later the 'sailors'  interested in my vote were actually lobbyists for (European?) boatbuilders. 

(TBF, have also found EYESAILOR's posts worth a second read)

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7 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

Yes we remarked on the example of boxing.  I’m trying to think of there are sports with higher women participation than men that could be used to balance gender.

 

Anyway sailing has been designated as a 50:50 sport. 
 

It will be interesting to see if roles for women sailors emerge post Olympics.  I see that Sail GP is looking at including a woman crew member. 
 

 

I believe Synchronised Swimming, Gymnastics, and Softball to name a few. I think part of the IOC Agenda 2020 also called for equal medal allocation, not just equal numbers.

It seems to me like the vast majority of women in professional sailing roles (SailGP, VOR) have Olympic backgrounds. To be fair, these organisations (especially SailGP) could be doing more for inclusivity. It's good to see that Nina Curtis has been put on the AUS team (actualy sailing team), but haven't sene much from the other teams yet. Different topic for a different thread though...

 

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54 minutes ago, Couta said:

Pretty condescending opening statement...and your opinion might count more if you gave some personal background to validate your comments. As for me...I'm a 3 time olympic rep contender who has deep connections into the sport as competitor, administrator and industry leader. I've been involved internationally for over 30 years and count amongst my personal friends coaches, MNA administrators and the Australian IOC ceo & chef de mission. The views are mine alone and they have been formed in a lifetime of commitment to our sport....and my previous involvement as Australian Team Manager for Canoeing...a sport that along with sailing, delivers more olympic medals per competitor than any other for Australia (swimming does well but it has more events & competitors). Professionally I have been involved in sports marketing for over 25 years.....so yes.....I do have insights into the real drivers behind the decisions made by IOC. You call me a "cynic" and my views "Exaggerated" ......others might fairly call them informed and insightful. I am very positive about young people...which is exactly why I now question whether the olympic myth is healthy for our young athletes....I've seen the damage done to the mental health, not just of those cast aside as they "fail" to achieve the "dream" but those that make the grade only to find how hollow the victory is...and struggle to deal with it. The sport is in trouble. Participation is declining. There have never been more recruits into junior programs. Never fewer who continue within the sport. The model is broken and WS is so focussed on the IOC that they cannot see a solution beyond "hanging in there and hoping for the best". That coverage of the events subcommittee tells the story....confused, self congratulatory and missing the bigger issue as they try and placate the IOC that doesn't want them. The IOC is a Marketing organisation made up of very entitled individuals with huge self interest at their core. The Olympics (gravy train) is in trouble. They need to re-invent themselves to retain relevance. Their answer is to refocus and slim down the offering - gender balanced, youth focussed and tele-visual with global appeal (mass marketable). Fail on any of these criteria and you'll be shown the door..

So, it's said: "opinions are like assholes...everyone has one". I've given you mine and a bit of an idea where it comes from.... I'm sure some here would like to see what yours is based on....

 

That is the great thing about SA, it allows people with real insight and knowledge to participate in the discussion.

I wish I had known your background before. Thank you for your service to the sport.

My background is much more humble. I am just a recreational sailor who has owned a few race boats during my working life.  I volunteered on a US sailing equipment committee for a couple of years and observed the WS equipment selection process from afar and was discouraged. 

There never seemed to be a cohesive approach to looking at what categories should be represented at the Olympics, it seemed class vs class politics rather than contemplating what was good for the future of the sport. One of the results is that we always seemed to be lagging rather than leading. But it was a distant observation. You were clearly closer to the action.

My opinions on the selection process were somewhat shaped by the decision to drop the multihulls (the whole process felt so flawed and then 4 years later it was reversed.) Then I also watched aghast at the process when the kite board was adopted , then decision reversed and then reversal of reversal of the decision. I dont know what the correct outcome should be BUT the process was badly flawed 

My opinions on the Olympics are as much idealistic as they are factual.   In a way I am your audience.  I love the Olympics.  I have watched them since childhood. I have flown to see them in person twice .    I tend to believe that there really is a purpose and benefit to athletes from nations around the world coming together to compete .     I have two former Olympians as friends, both would not have missed the experience for anything in the world.   

Im sure you are right that the IOC has members who are self interested and Im sure you are right that with TV advertising dollars being redirected to social media and search spending....that the Olympics is undergoing all sorts of commercial pressures to remain relevant.

Against that challenging background i hope the Olympics can find a balance where a slimmed down version of the games can provide a balance that is sufficiently entertaining so that the event can be funded but also remain true to providing the athletes with a great experience and a challenge worthy of the best athletes.   Your comments about the damage to young athletes is worrying.  We need to bring back the joy of competition where the athletes can strive to win......but being there and doing as well as you can should still ne meaningful and rewarding even if you dont win. 

Maybe, just maybe, some of the kitefoil sailors look like they enjoy the sport even without winning. I dont know how a kite foil campaign would compare to devoting 4 years to a Laser or 470 campaign.

But what is your solution?

Would you take sailing out of the Olympics? I think that would be a shame.

If within the Olympics and you had "god like " powers, which sailing events would you pick?

 

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The "5 Ringed Circus" article on the mythical front page provides a solid overview of the Machiavellian processes involved in Olympic sport representation - Convoluted & contradictory.

The IOC and the event were founded on principles by De Coubertin over a century ago...it had Mythology and spectacle in its DNA.... The perfect propaganda platform for empires and nationalistic govts to use....and they did, sparking a proxy war and the emergence of the national "Medal Tally" something never conceived in the Olympic charter. Billions in govt support are spent to drive the propaganda machine in the pursuit of Nationalistic dominance and with the explosion of mass communication technology the Marketing world was ready to capitalise. Today, nationalism is a distant second to commercialism...and the event that "Brings the world together" is a mass Marketing juggernaut. The national politics that drove sport inclusion (Bulgaria MUST have weight lifting...how else can our country compete!!) has now given way to commercial interests. Sponsors now dictate which Market should host the event based on their ability to provide access to that market (Hello China, Brazil!) regardless of ideology or capability to host. Once all markets are open (effectively where we are today)it becomes an exercise in market saturation...and the marketing priorities that dictates the event become "how can we get the most eyeballs for the lowest cost". Today, with geography now exploited, the main "emerging" market is (and always will be) YOUTH as they become commercially active (spend money!) and to maximise that market, we must include a gender balance. 

So....here we are....back where I started my comments. It's not about sport anymore - it's about entertainment and attracting an audience every 4 years to drive marketing revenues. The IOC completely understands this and protects its self interest. The athletes are the entertainment CONTENT that drives revenues. What those sports are is determined by their ability to attract audience. As we move from the traditional roots of De Coubertin's vision of amateur individual athletic excellence to mass marketed entertainment, there will be casualties. Sailing will be one of them....exceptions will be, as I've discussed elsewhere, gender balanced, youth focussed...in other words: "Marketable to the Masses" (fast, furious, colourful, athletic & sexy), with low infrastructure costs.....Foilers Boards & Kites

So, it doesn't matter what we think, or even what WS and their MNA's think should happen wrt class selection or medal events...the die is cast and commercial realities & interests will dictate the outcome. That is the modern Olympics.

Personally, I no longer think that Sailing has a nett benefit from involvement in the Olympics. But that's a whole other tirade based on the structural and functional disconnect between WS and the sports participants. We'll leave that for another day....The sun is shining, the wind is up so I'm taking my little Finn out for a training flog while the weather's still lets me! Cheers.

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On 5/11/2021 at 7:04 PM, Rotnest Express said:

In a former life I was indirectly involved in the broadcasting and production of Yachting in the 2000 Olympics in Sydney.Doing my research I became intrigued (wife says obsessed) by the the previous characters that had pioneered Olympic Yachting rather than the class of boats.It was pitched to us that the 49er was great saviour that was meant to take exciting visual high speed sailing to the masses via TV and Live via the natural stadium Sydney Harbour was meant to provide to the shore bound public.This was well intentioned  but totally derailed by officials from the IYRU who demanded a perfect sailing environment which destroyed what should have been the start to become a mainstream sport.I sat in on numerous production meetings with all of us just shaking our heads in frustration.Our default high interest high performance class were the Tornados.We engaged a high end Tornado sailor who had missed out on Olympic selection to design some course around TV needs while still creating a fair environment for competitors.We did trial runs with second string 49ers and Tornados and it looked great and was dynamic.I learnt a lot about sailing just being surrounded by and interacting with these great sailors.Visually you could take this product to the masses and those uneducated in the Code and convert them.The powers to be said it was to radical and then decided to move the Tornados offshore away from prying eyes,TV and the General Public.The 49ers had a prohibitive exclusion zone around them.What a lost opportunity that the sport generally will never recover from.Frustrating to say the least.

An interesting summary of what occurred in 2000.

I leant to sail to sail at Double Bay SC as a kid and went on to sail 18ft skiffs. The 49er course was my home waters.

I went out in a RIB to watch a couple of days racing.

I wasn't aware (or had forgotten) the politics with the Tornados.

The 49er course was pretty close to the 18ft skiff course.

Given the chaos of the Sydney Harbour start, I personally didn't feel the exclusion zone was all that onerous for an Olympic event. But then you had the harbour shores as a grandstand, so I thought on the water viewing was not critical to the success of the event. Mind you if they excluded camera boats as well, that would be a different matter.

For all the limitations you note, I thought the 49er event at those Olympics were as close as you were likely to get to a successful sailing event; precisely of course because the IYRU mantra of perfect clear and open waters was ignored. And the boats were more exciting to watch than any previous Olympic class.

As I've noted in another thread, if you want truly TV worthy Olympic sailing you need to change the thought process completely.

We recently organised a National Title for a twin wire skiff class on a river. Fortunately the legs of the river we use align pretty well with the most common winds - NE and SE.

12 heats of 30 minutes (two windward returns with a downwind finish) each on a river that is often less than 200 meters wide. On the SE course often 12 to 16 tacks and gybes per leg. So an absolute premium on TV worthy boat handling at the expense of pure speed or picking lifts and knocks. Capsizes everywhere in the 15 to 20 knot breeze of the first few days (tide against wind with a residual flood overflow made for some strangely unsettling conditions, even for the locals).

Tactics were critical because every crossing was a decision of cross, duck or tack. Do you take the starboard advantage this time or tack/gybe and keep it for the next crossing? Is the tidal advantage worth the extra tack of short tacking it?

The boats were crossing every few minutes. There was never any doubt on who was placed where and it changed constantly. 5 heat winners in the 12 heats.

Covered by the local TV station each night with both their footage (the first day) and drone footage provided to them.

The shores had a reasonable lining of local spectators, many of whom dropped by the club afterwards to say how much they'd enjoyed it.

All for 8 boats sailed by (mainly) weekend warriors. [12 boats might have made it more spectator worthy crowded. More than 12 might just have been chaos],

Imagine if you did the same a bit like the Olympic Rowing. 12 boat heats on a narrow course marked by buoys or shoreline as a continuing obstruction. Repercharges for those who much up a heat. All with a TV camera following the fleet up and down the course just outside the delineated course.

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10 hours ago, Couta said:

We'll leave that for another day....The sun is shining, the wind is up so I'm taking my little Finn out for a training flog while the weather's still lets me! Cheers.

Enjoy your sail.

Sounds like you think it doesnt matter what the WS equipment cttee think, the IOC is going to select kite foiling because it is more entertaining.

Ironically I have been arguing the same, kite foiling will resonate best with the IOC's agenda.

 I think kite foiling is part of our sport and Im good with it being part of the Olympics. The optimist in me hopes that kite foiling's entertainment factor will sustain the rest of sailing's participation in the olympics and that we we will still have medals for dinghies etc .  The Single handed dinghy (Laser or whatever class over the coming years) is boring as hell to watch for non-sailors and even most sailors but the litmus test for the Olympics is that these type of events (single handed dinghy) remain alongside more entertaining sports like kites.

Time will tell

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2 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

Enjoy your sail.

Sounds like you think it doesnt matter what the WS equipment cttee think, the IOC is going to select kite foiling because it is more entertaining.

Ironically I have been arguing the same, kite foiling will resonate best with the IOC's agenda.

 I think kite foiling is part of our sport and Im good with it being part of the Olympics. The optimist in me hopes that kite foiling's entertainment factor will sustain the rest of sailing's participation in the olympics and that we we will still have medals for dinghies etc .  The Single handed dinghy (Laser or whatever class over the coming years) is boring as hell to watch for non-sailors and even most sailors but the litmus test for the Olympics is that these type of events (single handed dinghy) remain alongside more entertaining sports like kites.

Time will tell

Sounds like you actually re-read my stuff....I've been 100% consistent in my stated view....that foilers -  kites & boards will be the survivors...from my first comments on the subject...to my last.

As for my training sail...I loved it, as always. I'm passionate about sailing in all its forms - from dinghy racing to ocean racing (if you're familiar with my postings on SA, you'll know a little bit about what I've done), cruising and deliveries...and not just sailing...SUP, surfing, ocean ski paddling, flat water kayaking...anything that gets me out on the water. It's fair to say I've competed in all of these fields at world champ levels ( Nah..not surfing or SUP...but yeah...ranked in the rest)

If you want an insight into where watersports is moving...follow Kai Lenny. If you want to promote sailing in a sustainable way, follow his exploits using a catamaran and his relatively newly acquired sailing skills to cruise the pacific with friends as they explore new surfing spots while kiting, pump boarding, SUPing and of course surfing...it's so, so, so cool and puts sailing at the centre of true "waterman" skills. Check out his adventures on youtube and you'll get where I'm coming from. Beyond racing, he positions sailing and the sea as a lifestyle....there's the sustainable future of the sport. Cheers.

 

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2 hours ago, Couta said:

Sounds like you actually re-read my stuff....I've been 100% consistent in my stated view....that foilers -  kites & boards will be the survivors...from my first comments on the subject...to my last.

As for my training sail...I loved it, as always. I'm passionate about sailing in all its forms - from dinghy racing to ocean racing (if you're familiar with my postings on SA, you'll know a little bit about what I've done), cruising and deliveries...and not just sailing...SUP, surfing, ocean ski paddling, flat water kayaking...anything that gets me out on the water. It's fair to say I've competed in all of these fields at world champ levels ( Nah..not surfing or SUP...but yeah...ranked in the rest)

If you want an insight into where watersports is moving...follow Kai Lenny. If you want to promote sailing in a sustainable way, follow his exploits using a catamaran and his relatively newly acquired sailing skills to cruise the pacific with friends as they explore new surfing spots while kiting, pump boarding, SUPing and of course surfing...it's so, so, so cool and puts sailing at the centre of true "waterman" skills. Check out his adventures on youtube and you'll get where I'm coming from. Beyond racing, he positions sailing and the sea as a lifestyle....there's the sustainable future of the sport. Cheers.

 

Sounds like you lead such a healthy and fulfilling life.  I am glad for you.

As to the Olympics. I love sailing so much. Its been the center of my life. I hope some form of blend of different categories of sailing survives in the Olympics, because if done right, there is still something unique about the Olympics .     I would like to see sailing in the Olympics encompass both what is new and fresh about our sport (which will always evolve as we find new ways to enjoy wind and water) and what is traditional and hard and competitive about our sport (because winning a sail boat race is IMHO, one of the hardest sporting endeavors there is requiring intelligence, boat speed, and fitness)

However I truly agree with you that the future of sailing does not reside in the Olympics.  Sailing has to be both a sport and a lifestyle. I grew up sailing taught by my father (93 years young) with my two wonderful brothers and we learnt to love sailing before we learnt to race. All three of us still sail and race. My son went to a US racing program and dropped sailing post college. My brothers kids learnt to sail  on vacations and still love it. Lesson there is that for enduring passion....love to sail first before racing.

 

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I thought it might be fun to list the great Olympic classes , any class which has been on the Olympic stage for 7 or more Olympic cycles (at least 24 years = 1/4 century)

Finn 18 x Olympics 1952-2020

Star 18 x Olympics  1932-2012 

470 13 x Olympics 1976-2024 (and counting)

Flying Dutchman 9 x Olympics 1960-1992

Tornado 9x Olympics 1976-2008

Soling 8 x Olympics 1972-2000

Laser 8 x Olympics 1996 -2024 (and counting),,,,,,but as at this date the Laser has only been an Olympic Class for 6 Olympics. It just feels like it should have been longer.

Dragon 7x Olympics 1948-1972

6 meter 7 x Olympics

8 meter 7 x Olympics 

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5 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

My brothers kids learnt to sail  on vacations and still love it. Lesson there is that for enduring passion....love to sail first before racing.

The very first time I went sailing, it was in a race, crewing at the age of 9. The skipper was also new. We capsized, had to be rescued (It wasn't that windy).

I was hooked. Fast forward forty plus years later and I am just as enthusiastic as I ever was about racing. Frankly, when sailing, I am either racing or practicing to race - including when on occasion I go out in 20+ knots for a blast.

For many (including me), it is about the game itself, and the pursuit of victory. I find it boring to win by more than 5 minutes, to sail by myself. The ultimate for me still is to race in a fleet where you could finish 1st or 21st - because it is that close. I would rather be placed in the middle of a fleet with close racing, than win every race as a consequence of being better than the fleet.

...the lesson here is that people are different, and enduring passion for sailing comes in many forms.

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2 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

The very first time I went sailing, it was in a race, crewing at the age of 9. The skipper was also new. We capsized, had to be rescued (It wasn't that windy).

I was hooked. Fast forward forty plus years later and I am just as enthusiastic as I ever was about racing. Frankly, when sailing, I am either racing or practicing to race - including when on occasion I go out in 20+ knots for a blast.

For many (including me), it is about the game itself, and the pursuit of victory. I find it boring to win by more than 5 minutes, to sail by myself. The ultimate for me still is to race in a fleet where you could finish 1st or 21st - because it is that close. I would rather be placed in the middle of a fleet with close racing, than win every race as a consequence of being better than the fleet.

...the lesson here is that people are different, and enduring passion for sailing comes in many forms.

Dont get me wrong......I love to race.  I can be cruising in Greece and heading to the same port as a similar yacht , and I will start trimming the sheets, determined to be first to the dock. I have raced all my life and will be racing into my grave.

But I love to race sailing boats and that is because I learnt to love to sail before learning to race.  I was largely self taught as a racer. My brothers and I raced every chance we got and then at college I discovered to my surprise I was really quite good and it went on from there. But no matter what the competition, national championship or Wednesday evening, no matter how good or bad the result, I am having fun and that is because I enjoy sailing.    

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7 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

Dont get me wrong......I love to race.  I can be cruising in Greece and heading to the same port as a similar yacht , and I will start trimming the sheets, determined to be first to the dock. I have raced all my life and will be racing into my grave.

No issue there, is fantastic you do. 

Fleet racing is only possible because there is a fleet!!

18 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

Lesson there is that for enduring passion....love to sail first before racing.

I am competitive by nature. I compete in other sports, and have competed in athletics, racquet sports (table tennis, squash, tennis, badminton), team sports (soccer, rugby, netball, cricket, softball, basketball).

Take away racing any I probably wouldn't bother sail.

I have no issue with anyone sailing for any reason. :) 

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Many seem to have made their minds up as to what sailing will look like post Tokyo. Strongly suggest reading this well-written essay about the Finn.

it's my opinion that the Olympics need the Finn much more than the Finn needs the Olympics but the IOC and WS haven't a clue. 

https://rule69blog.wordpress.com/2021/05/12/finn-fair/

 

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WS voted for the kite option. It now goes to the IOC.

The part concerning the two options considered (470, kites) starts at 1:27:00

Note that as stated, there were only two options considered, 15 submissions were put forward by MNAs (including three MNAs calling for the return of the Finn) but only two met the criteria set by the events committee. What Jo Aleh said was important. Basically, the will of many sailors was not followed. 

 

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4 hours ago, Alan Crawford said:

Many seem to have made their minds up as to what sailing will look like post Tokyo. Strongly suggest reading this well-written essay about the Finn.

it's my opinion that the Olympics need the Finn much more than the Finn needs the Olympics but the IOC and WS haven't a clue. 

https://rule69blog.wordpress.com/2021/05/12/finn-fair/

 

The article is a marvelous and well written testament to all that is great about the Finn. It is also a very weakly written argument to retain the Finn in the Olympics. It reminds me of the defense attorney who brilliantly presents the good character of his client but fails to advance any evidence that his client did not commit the crime.

It is a shame because I think there can be a well presented case to incorporate the class in the Olympics.

The Finn submissions to WS as a replacement for the offshore mixed event were frankly embarrassing and amateur hour ......a mixed gender Fnn race.....seriously?

It is fine to remind WS about the legendary sailors in the past who have sailed the Finn but the Class has to present a forward looking view.  What does it offer to the future of sailing?  How does it advance the Olympic ideal? Most importantly, they have to present the class and describe how it fits in within a slate of 10 events .  This is where the Finn has really failed. What would be the 10 events which make the Finn event an essential part of a well thought out set of complimentary events.   To be fair, WS doesnt do a good job of this either and this encourages classes to argue their own merits and pick random fights against unrelated classes (Finn vs Offhore  or Finn vs Kites etc)  If the Finn class wants to be in the Olympics, they have to demonstrate a holistic vision of where the Fnn fits in.  This means either they have to describe a slate of events that includes three single handed dinghies and remains gender equal or they have to argue why the Finn is the better single handed Men's dinghy than the Laser.  It is simple really , those are the only two routes for the Finn to be in the Olympics. Yet the Finn class doesnt try to do that. It did not try and do that in its submission to the equipment committee and it doesnt try to do that in these PR pieces. 

The Finn needs to be factual, holistic and confront the choices that the WS have to make  in an upfront manner explaining point by point why the Finn works within 10 events. They fail to do that and thus we will be mourning the passing of the Finn.   

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13 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

WS voted for the kite option. It now goes to the IOC.

The part concerning the two options considered (470, kites) starts at 1:27:00

Note that as stated, there were only two options considered, 15 submissions were put forward by MNAs (including three MNAs calling for the return of the Finn) but only two met the criteria set by the events committee. What Jo Aleh said was important. Basically, the will of many sailors was not followed. 

 

WS are sending 3 options to the IOC.  The long bureaucratic voting process was to rank the order of preference of WS.

#1 preference is to retain the mixed offshore event.

IOC has asked for 2 alternates, in order of preference thy are #2 M/W kites and #3 M/W 470.

This thread has been forecasting the M/W kites  as the most likely outcome since the first page 

Of the 15 submissions, 6 included some form of returning the Finn. They ranged from impractical to the absurd. They were uncoordinated and with one exception lacked any support outside of the submitting party. The exception was the Finnish and Estonian sail federations combined to support open/mixed sailing in the Finn.  Unsurprisingly they failed to find a single proposer, let alone proposer and seconder in either the equipment committee or events committee.  In contrast the kites submitted just one submission which cogently addressed the selection criteria and then lined up 10 MNAs to sign the submission.   The 470 class also focused on one well argued submission and lined up 2 heavyweight MNAs (China and Japan).  The sub committee tasked with reporting on whether the submissions met the criteria required by IOC and WS concluded that none of the 6 Finn submissions met the criteria.  This did not prevent those 6 submissions going to a vote at both committees, but they did not get a single vote .    

 

 

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We have been forecasting M/W kites as the more likely outcome since the first page of this topic. Personally I think the debate of the various alternatives on this thread has been much more thorough , relevant and passionate than the discussion by World Sailing council.

Yes, WS is submitting 3 alternatives but Bruce has it right, the ranking gives implicit recommendation to the kite.

IOC will either choose the kite or drop the 10th medal. I believe they wll choose the kite.

The only surprise could be a last ditch support for mixed offshore from the French hosts.  

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14 hours ago, Alan Crawford said:

Many seem to have made their minds up as to what sailing will look like post Tokyo. Strongly suggest reading this well-written essay about the Finn.

But I read that and think 'well actually none of those sailors started off sailing Finns'. And I reckon all of them would have been just as successful if the Olympics had been using a different singlehanded class every quadrennial. Yes they came to prominence because of medals in the Finn class, but all that proves is that the Finn needed the Olympics. Without the Olympics it would have been just another local class.

 

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14 minutes ago, JimC said:

But I read that and think 'well actually none of those sailors started off sailing Finns'. And I reckon all of them would have been just as successful if the Olympics had been using a different singlehanded class every quadrennial. Yes they came to prominence because of medals in the Finn class, but all that proves is that the Finn needed the Olympics. Without the Olympics it would have been just another local class.

 

The Finn was specifically designed for the Olympics in a competition to select a new class for the 1952 Olympics.

It is ironic to hear some of the traditionalists arguing that the Olympics should not be used to experiment with new ideas and new classes.....and the Olympics should select established classes rather than designs specifically for the Olympics.   If not for Olympics willingness to innovate , we would never have had the Finn.  Without Olympic selection, nobody would have heard about it.   Its success as a great class outside the olympics and its endurance as an Olympic class reflects the success of the design...but it only came about because of the Olympics. 

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11 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

Yes, WS is submitting 3 alternatives but Bruce has it right, the ranking gives implicit recommendation to the kite.

There are just two alternatives being submitted by World Sailing. :)

I base this on what was said in the meeting, media reports, and World Sailing's own report:

"World Sailing will now propose to the IOC that should the Mixed Offshore Event not be approved by the IOC Executive Board, they should consider Men's and Women's Kiteboarding as the first alternative event and thereafter Men's and Women's 470."

https://www.sailing.org/news/90982.php#.YKBJFI2xWDY

There is no third alternative being put forward by World Sailing.

---

IPLore is correct that other events proposed by MNAs included the Finn. I counted just two which saw the return of the Finn in the form we currently know, supported by three MNAs.

Wondering if there is a transcript of the meeting somewhere. Also, I would like to know more about what lead Jo Aleh to comment that the will of sailors was not being followed.

---

It strikes me that the elimination of the Women's 470 as an event hurts Women's centreboard one design sailing. The 470 has become a vital focal point in many countries around the world.

---

I maintain any long term solution includes more events. 12 events could include M/W kiteboards, Women's 470 and the Finn - providing more women's medals than men's.

Our sport has become more diverse, and new events like kiteboards should not mean existing events get eliminated. 

In my view, 2028 should see the return of some keelboat event.

Remember, Canoeing, a less diverse sport has 16 Olympic events, more competitors. As sailing is usually located away from other events, accommodation and infrastructure challenges does not usually impact in the same way as other sports. In my view,the issue of infrastructure with other locations is being inappropriately being applied to sailing. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 5/10/2021 at 8:12 AM, greenwhiteblack said:

The IOC and host cities have to spend significant amounts of money fitting out sailing venues (which they can't sell tickets to), supplying boats for athletes, boats for officials etc etc to basically get no media coverage out of it.

Weymouth 2012 did sell tickets to watch sailing and in the UK anyway, sailing did get significant media coverage. 

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On 5/10/2021 at 10:54 PM, JoeBiff said:

https://www.offshoredoubles.org/olympic-event-news/  

Good overview of the discussion on the Mixed Two Person Keelboat Offshore Event for the 2024 Paris Olympics.

It's not an "overview of the discussion", it's a summary of the arguments in favour while failing to engage with the arguments against.

 

 

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On 5/12/2021 at 10:49 AM, EYESAILOR said:

Yes we remarked on the example of boxing.  I’m trying to think of there are sports with higher women participation than men that could be used to balance gender.

Competitive Yoga is a thing and I can confirm that usually, I'm the only male in my yoga class. Approaching it as a competition is a classic male route to getting hurt but that's another story. I've mixed feelings about presenting yoga as a sport but find this video impressive and inspiring.

 

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4 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

There are just two alternatives being submitted by World Sailing. :)

I base this on what was said in the meeting, media reports, and World Sailing's own report:

"World Sailing will now propose to the IOC that should the Mixed Offshore Event not be approved by the IOC Executive Board, they should consider Men's and Women's Kiteboarding as the first alternative event and thereafter Men's and Women's 470."

https://www.sailing.org/news/90982.php#.YKBJFI2xWDY

There is no third alternative being put forward by World Sailing.

---

IPLore is correct that other events proposed by MNAs included the Finn. I counted just two which saw the return of the Finn in the form we currently know, supported by three MNAs.

Wondering if there is a transcript of the meeting somewhere. Also, I would like to know more about what lead Jo Aleh to comment that the will of sailors was not being followed.

---

It strikes me that the elimination of the Women's 470 as an event hurts Women's centreboard one design sailing. The 470 has become a vital focal point in many countries around the world.

---

I maintain any long term solution includes more events. 12 events could include M/W kiteboards, Women's 470 and the Finn - providing more women's medals than men's.

Our sport has become more diverse, and new events like kiteboards should not mean existing events get eliminated. 

In my view, 2028 should see the return of some keelboat event.

Remember, Canoeing, a less diverse sport has 16 Olympic events, more competitors. As sailing is usually located away from other events, accommodation and infrastructure challenges does not usually impact in the same way as other sports. In my view,the issue of infrastructure with other locations is being inappropriately being applied to sailing. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think everyone is saying the same thing using slightly different language

WS is proposing 3 options to the IOC .  The mixed offshore event and 2 alternative events (Kites and 470s)

The Council meeting demonstrated to me how dysfunctional WS remains in it processes.  The council meeting took over 2 hours and 4 votes to choose 2 alternative events from the 2 alternatives events presented to them.

The voting process was arcane and bureaucratic.  What they were trying to do was put an order of preference to the options they were presenting to the IOC. (The IOC has not asked for an order of preference).  It was not even controversial with the ranking receiving a 94% majority but it was painful to watch how they structured the voting .  The new executive director of WS  seemed more concerned with due process than providing a platform to thoroughly analyze the issues.

Nevertheless the outcome is:

WS recommends that the mixed offshore event remains

If IOC declines, then WS recommends 2 alternative events , kite and 470.....and ranks kite over 470.

IOC asked for 2 alternatives so that the iOC can select the event.

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12 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

 

IPLore is correct that other events proposed by MNAs included the Finn. I counted just two which saw the return of the Finn in the form we currently know, supported by three MNAs.

Wondering if there is a transcript of the meeting somewhere. Also, I would like to know more about what lead Jo Aleh to comment that the will of sailors was not being followed.

---

It strikes me that the elimination of the Women's 470 as an event hurts Women's centreboard one design sailing. The 470 has become a vital focal point in many countries around the world.

---

 

The events submissions are here https://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/AnnexureAAlternativeEventSubmissions-[27263].pdf

There were actually 6 submissions for the Finn. Although 2 seemed the same... proposing bringing back the Europe dinghy for women .None of them seemed practical.  

One of the submissions was along your lines.  The Finnish sailing association proposed the 10th event should be Finn for men and that gender equality would be preserved by converting the 470 to a women only event .   In other words drop mens 470 sailing in favor of mens Finn sailing and leave the 470 as a women only event.

It was rejected by the events cttee, but in my mind it was the only Finn proposal that answered the IOC requirements.  It would have faced strong opposition from the 470s whose class organization is dominated by men.

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2 hours ago, IPLore said:

The new executive director of WS  seemed more concerned with due process than

Unsurprising really as there's been a lot of criticism of World sailing not following process recently. 

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28 minutes ago, JimC said:

Unsurprising really as there's been a lot of criticism of World sailing not following process recently. 

The events committee recommended the 470 and the kite as the two alternatives with 7 votes for 470s and 6 for kites 

The equipment committee recommended the kite and the 470 as the two alternatives in that order.

Both committees recommended the same 2 alternatives .

Those were going to be the two alternative events submitted to ioc but in order to get there Council voted down the 2 recommendations of the event committee and voted in favor of the two recommendation of the equipment committee .

Now it goes to the IOC.

 

 

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At the IOC, the first step is going to be WS asking to retain the offshore event.

Then if that fails, WS will seek to hold onto the 10th medal by offering two alternatives .

I think the most likely outcome is that the mixed kites is split into M kites and W kites for all reason mentioned by others in this thread.

I still think there is an outside chance (very low probability but a chance) of the offshore event surviving.  This would require intervention of France as host.  The French have a good chance of medaling in this event.  They would be responsible for providing the facilities in Marseilles. If the French hosts told IOC that they really want to host the event then the IOC might listen. However I think the hurdles are significant.....choice of boat is not finalized, cost of equipment, facilities and TV coverage.....which nations would actually be able to qualify or afford to compete etc etc.     vs another kite event which is an easy path.  I dont think the IOC would have asked for alternatives if they were not 90% sure the offshore was unsuitable.

The least likely in my eyes is the 470......which probably means the IOC will choose the 470 and prove me wrong :)     

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10 hours ago, IPLore said:

The events submissions are here https://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/AnnexureAAlternativeEventSubmissions-[27263].pdf

There were actually 6 submissions for the Finn. Although 2 seemed the same... proposing bringing back the Europe dinghy for women .None of them seemed practical.  

One of the submissions was along your lines.  The Finnish sailing association proposed the 10th event should be Finn for men and that gender equality would be preserved by converting the 470 to a women only event .   In other words drop mens 470 sailing in favor of mens Finn sailing and leave the 470 as a women only event.

It was rejected by the events cttee, but in my mind it was the only Finn proposal that answered the IOC requirements.  It would have faced strong opposition from the 470s whose class organization is dominated by men.

My ideal long term solution is to increase the number of events, which was not proposed.

I wonder what would need to happen to add two events for Paris 2024.

If Tokyo does not go ahead (still a possibility), there might be sufficient disruption to make changes to Paris 2024.

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26 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

My ideal long term solution is to increase the number of events, which was not proposed.

I wonder what would need to happen to add two events for Paris 2024.

If Tokyo does not go ahead (still a possibility), there might be sufficient disruption to make changes to Paris 2024.

Hi Bruce,   Happy Monday

If Tokyo does not go ahead, it will be a massive setback for the Olympics. I had lunch at the YC today with an executive from one of the insurance company that has covered event risk for the Olympics. The IOC has contingency plans for a cancellation which would include a substantial cost reductions at Paris where it does not affect TV revenues.  That would mean taking costs out of sailing.   For all kinds of reasons (not least for the athletes) we should be wanting Tokyo to go ahead and I trust that athletes are getting vaccinated to show a good example.

I get your long term goal.  In the medium term we can be reasonably sure that the number of sailing events will be 9 or 10 in 2024. The focus at this stage is to make sure it is 10 events. 

Longer term, I think it gets hard to make the case for growing sailing events beyond 10.

Lets avoid IOC suggesting we could be down to 7

Men Single handed, Womens single handed, Mens Double Handed , Womens Double handed, Men Board, Women Board , Multi Mixed .

or even 5

or Mens single, womens single, Mixed double. Mens Board. Womens board .

 

 

 

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Dont get me wrong @Bruce Hudson . I would like to have seen the whole slate revisited and I would love to see 2 more events. I would also have liked to see the mixed offshore survive. But the mandate was to replace the Mixed offshore and leave the slate gender equal.

If I was redoing the whole slate, I would question whether we need both windsurfers and kite foils. Now that the windsurfer is foiling, these are very similar disciplines.  Swap out the Mens windsurfer for a Mens heavyweight single handed dinghy?  Uh oh, the windsurfers will be after me.

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44 minutes ago, IPLore said:

Hi Bruce,   Happy Monday

If Tokyo does not go ahead, it will be a massive setback for the Olympics. I had lunch at the YC today with an executive from one of the insurance company that has covered event risk for the Olympics. The IOC has contingency plans for a cancellation which would include a substantial cost reductions at Paris where it does not affect TV revenues.  That would mean taking costs out of sailing.   For all kinds of reasons (not least for the athletes) we should be wanting Tokyo to go ahead and I trust that athletes are getting vaccinated to show a good example.

I get your long term goal.  In the medium term we can be reasonably sure that the number of sailing events will be 9 or 10 in 2024. The focus at this stage is to make sure it is 10 events. 

Longer term, I think it gets hard to make the case for growing sailing events beyond 10.

Lets avoid IOC suggesting we could be down to 7

Men Single handed, Womens single handed, Mens Double Handed , Womens Double handed, Men Board, Women Board , Multi Mixed .

or even 5

or Mens single, womens single, Mixed double. Mens Board. Womens board.

I'm a huge fan of the sailing Olympics. 

But I'm a bigger fan of not putting lives at risk.

Unfortunately, Japan has a terrible situation with the pandemic, and it is getting worse daily. If a national state of emergency is called prior to the start of the Olympics, which is increasing in probability daily, then it is unlikely that the Olympics will be held. A state of emergency already exists for Tokyo.

One possible move by the Japanese government might be to close the borders. The IOC would then have no option but to cancel the games, or at least postpone again.

Update: the IOC has yet to confirm that the Tokyo games are going ahead.

https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1107813/sailing-ioc-tokyo-2020

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Further to my earlier comments regarding WS and their over reliance / subordination to the IOC....

https://www.sail-world.com/news/237637/World-Sailing-wants-IOC-assurance-on-Tokyo2020?fbclid=IwAR3Dg1rXXlAKjg-wFJDs-jXADyXSVV92AIR8q8zxOhh6-8xgnAq5FuOIPz4

So WS is more concerned for it's tenuous /unsustainable financial situation than it is for the impact of a global pandemic....and it's technically insolvent!

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From that link

"That the federation is effectively in negative equity and without the financial assistance of the IOC we would have gone into liquidation."

"The majority of the federation's resources are spent on administration, headcount, office space and only a fraction on the promotion and development of the sport

 

But at least the current CEO recognises there is a problem

"We are heavily reliant on the IOC dividend, which is about 50% of our income, which in turn makes us unhealthily subordinate to them. In my opinion far too much emphasis is put on the Olympics at the expense of other elements of our sport, and this unhealthy emphasis is not actually reaping rewards. 

 

Will anything change?

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3 hours ago, Dark Cloud said:

From that link

"That the federation is effectively in negative equity and without the financial assistance of the IOC we would have gone into liquidation."

"The majority of the federation's resources are spent on administration, headcount, office space and only a fraction on the promotion and development of the sport

 

But at least the current CEO recognises there is a problem

"We are heavily reliant on the IOC dividend, which is about 50% of our income, which in turn makes us unhealthily subordinate to them. In my opinion far too much emphasis is put on the Olympics at the expense of other elements of our sport, and this unhealthy emphasis is not actually reaping rewards. 

 

Will anything change?

WS's expenses exploded on the upside during a prior director who moved HQ to London and embarked on trying to create a World Sailing Circuit and World Sailing media.  Role was out of control.

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5 hours ago, Couta said:

Bankrupt....financially & morally.

Which is a shame because it is the governing body of our sport . Things like keeping the rules and appeals organized are useful...and it would be good for us if they lived within their means.

Unlike Tennis and skiing etc, our sport is primarily amateur and does not throw off a large amount of revenue so the organization needs to be inexpensive and primarily supporting volunteers and performing some functions for a fee.

It was previously housed in a modest building on the South coast of UK where a reasonably compact team of employees enjoyed a quality of life and reasonable income. It seems to me that moving to London was a mistake . Every cost center needs to be examined and asked whether it either (a) Generates enough revenue to more than cover cost or (b) Performs an essential service for sailing.

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For those who keep saying get sailing out of the Olympics, please stop.  There are several community sailing centers that obtain not-for-profit and tax-exempt status on the premise that they are "AMATEUR ATHLETIC ORGANIZATIONS" and they have mission statements stating "to foster national or international sports competition."

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7 hours ago, IPLore said:

It seems to me that moving to London was a mistake . 

It was a mystery to me how anyone could think that was a good idea. And now they are stuck with a stupid expensive lease and they can't even sublet because the demand for office space has collapsed. 

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1 hour ago, JimC said:

It was a mystery to me how anyone could think that was a good idea. And now they are stuck with a stupid expensive lease and they can't even sublet because the demand for office space has collapsed. 

It was a bad idea for two obvious reasons:

1. It was expensive

2. They lost staff who liked to live on the coast because they like to be close to sailing. 

and it is very expensive....even in this highly discounted covid market, the landlord is looking for 73 pounds a square foot. I dread to think what WS  are paying .  This is a very glitzy award winning building.

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16 hours ago, JimC said:

It was a mystery to me how anyone could think that was a good idea. 

Apparently MNA representatives thought it was a good idea because they could fly into LHR without the need to schlepp out to Southampton. I'm not saying that was a good reason but apparently it was the rationale. 

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On 5/16/2021 at 3:42 PM, IPLore said:

At the IOC, the first step is going to be WS asking to retain the offshore event.

Then if that fails, WS will seek to hold onto the 10th medal by offering two alternatives .

I think the most likely outcome is that the mixed kites is split into M kites and W kites for all reason mentioned by others in this thread.

I still think there is an outside chance (very low probability but a chance) of the offshore event surviving.  This would require intervention of France as host.  The French have a good chance of medaling in this event.  They would be responsible for providing the facilities in Marseilles. If the French hosts told IOC that they really want to host the event then the IOC might listen. However I think the hurdles are significant.....choice of boat is not finalized, cost of equipment, facilities and TV coverage.....which nations would actually be able to qualify or afford to compete etc etc.     vs another kite event which is an easy path.  I dont think the IOC would have asked for alternatives if they were not 90% sure the offshore was unsuitable.

The least likely in my eyes is the 470......which probably means the IOC will choose the 470 and prove me wrong :)     

I do think the Local Organising Commitee is going to get more power in games cycles going forward - Tokyo might just tell the IOC how it works this year.. They don't have masses of cities falling over themselves to host their party beyond 2028, So if the French really want the most french of sailing events. they need to speak up now and all of the issues holding it back can be ironed out. I do hope behind the scenes french sailing are engaging with their masters.

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1 hour ago, dogwatch said:

Apparently MNA representatives thought it was a good idea because they could fly into LHR without the need to schlepp out to Southampton. I'm not saying that was a good reason but apparently it was the rationale. 

They rarely if ever hold their meetings at the HQ, they go to conference hotels.  Yes the board has to visit HQ etc.......but in terms of staffing and cost, they had a nice HQ in Southampton and it was affordable.  Anyway......its done.  If they could move somewhere less expensive now Im sure they would. Their best option is probably to file for bankruptcy protection, renegotiate their leases and expenses and emerge a leaner organization with clearly defined roles .  They could even sit down with the landlord and negotiate a way to avoid filing.

If the Olympics are cancelled they are probably bankrupt anyway.  Since the live audiences have been cancelled Im not sure how that affects the IOC dividend. I dont know what IOC's take was from the live audiences vs TV audiences. 

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7 hours ago, IPLore said:

They rarely if ever hold their meetings at the HQ, they go to conference hotels.  Yes the board has to visit HQ etc.......but in terms of staffing and cost, they had a nice HQ in Southampton and it was affordable.  Anyway......its done.  If they could move somewhere less expensive now Im sure they would. Their best option is probably to file for bankruptcy protection, renegotiate their leases and expenses and emerge a leaner organization with clearly defined roles .  They could even sit down with the landlord and negotiate a way to avoid filing.

If the Olympics are cancelled they are probably bankrupt anyway.  Since the live audiences have been cancelled Im not sure how that affects the IOC dividend. I dont know what IOC's take was from the live audiences vs TV audiences. 

Agree that it would be logical for some vicious reordering. Some of the functions can be carried out by class associations, and regatta organizing committees - I'm not a big fan of WS organizing regattas.

In my view there are people with influence and access to deep pockets involved with the sport of sailing, and the more likely outcome of Tokyo being cancelled is more extraordinary debt. Of course it will have a story to go with it, full of platitudes justifying the debt.

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13 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Agree that it would be logical for some vicious reordering. Some of the functions can be carried out by class associations, and regatta organizing committees - I'm not a big fan of WS organizing regattas.

In my view there are people with influence and access to deep pockets involved with the sport of sailing, and the more likely outcome of Tokyo being cancelled is more extraordinary debt. Of course it will have a story to go with it, full of platitudes justifying the debt.

Those people with deep pockets seem to have stayed assiduously clear of the out held hand from WS.

World Sailing does not list any individual donations or sponsors ....even if anonymous, it would be referred to in the accounts.

The sponsorship is woeful.....it is led by Rolex then it falls off a cliff to a handful or marine suppliers which look out of date. The partners list includes Laser Performance, which have since been dropped as an authorized builder so I doubt they write any checks to WS anymore.

WS needs to incorporate Zero Basis budgeting, as designed by the Brazilians who turned around InBev.  Instead of looking at the prior years budget and tweaking up and down, you start with no budget, and then evry item has to be justified as the best priority.

 

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6 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Unanswered: What would it take to increase the number of events for Olympic sailing?

probably an overhaul of ALL sports. seeing boxing and weightlifting getting a squeeze, things like shooting,archery. cycling for instance has 22 medals, but 12 of them are track cycling - probably less than 0.5% of all cyclists who have been in a race of any sort have even been on a track - there are reasons for it, but if you started from scratch it would not look like this at all. Where sailing would fall in this pecking order is probably not worth guessing.

Unless.........

the president of the IOC is a sailor

 

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4 hours ago, shebeen said:

probably an overhaul of ALL sports. seeing boxing and weightlifting getting a squeeze, things like shooting,archery. cycling for instance has 22 medals, but 12 of them are track cycling - probably less than 0.5% of all cyclists who have been in a race of any sort have even been on a track - there are reasons for it, but if you started from scratch it would not look like this at all. Where sailing would fall in this pecking order is probably not worth guessing.

Unless.........

the president of the IOC is a sailor

 

Yes. I get the feeling the logic being followed is that track cycling has 12 events, the Olympics has too many medals, therefore sailing should be limited to just 10.

I am sure that the final decision is with the IOC, however WS may be complicit in the decision - though to what extent, I'm not clear. 

With the next new version of boarding (wing foiling), and because it meets the criteria, should boarding be increased to six events? Because boats are more expensive?

Seems to me that if a tiny sport like track cycling has 12 medals, why is sailing limited to 10?? There are many examples of similar inequities.

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3 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Yes. I get the feeling the logic being followed is that track cycling has 12 events, the Olympics has too many medals, therefore sailing should be limited to just 10.

I am sure that the final decision is with the IOC, however WS may be complicit in the decision - though to what extent, I'm not clear. 

With the next new version of boarding (wing foiling), and because it meets the criteria, should boarding be increased to six events? Because boats are more expensive?

Seems to me that if a tiny sport like track cycling has 12 medals, why is sailing limited to 10?? There are many examples of similar inequities.

You realize that cycling is a much larger sport than sailing right?

Track cycling has I thought 5 events?

 

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5 minutes ago, IPLore said:

You realize that cycling is a much larger sport than sailing right?

Track cycling has I thought 5 events?

All cycling is, however I don't think track cycling is bigger (more participants) than all of sailing. Besides, if it was proportional to the number of participants, then road cycling would have many times the medals as track cycling.

As from Tokyo, track cycling has six events. (I haven't checked Paris) Twelve is arrived at by counting events the same way is sailing is counted: men's/women's separately, so six becomes twelve.

Sailboat racing looks likely to have six events. (Though if counted creatively, just three).

Maybe all World Sailing needs to do is count creatively to increase the medal haul. I have yet to figure out how ten events was decided upon.

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34 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

All cycling is, however I don't think track cycling is bigger (more participants) than all of sailing. Besides, if it was proportional to the number of participants, then road cycling would have many times the medals as track cycling.

As from Tokyo, track cycling has six events. (I haven't checked Paris) Twelve is arrived at by counting events the same way is sailing is counted: men's/women's separately, so six becomes twelve.

Sailboat racing looks likely to have six events. (Though if counted creatively, just three).

Maybe all World Sailing needs to do is count creatively to increase the medal haul. I have yet to figure out how ten events was decided upon.

The history of how sailing increased its medal count from 6 to 10 has been gone through in this thread many times.

Basically, the number of medals increased to reflect the addition of boards + women events. Then got trimmed like other sports after London as IOC trims the number of events.   Some sports have different distances , which are easy add-ons and need no additional equipment , and take very few resources. 

One sailing race or two takes the whole day to run. In  a day they get through lots of cycle races. 

I really dont see an easy way to increase sailing events.  Its enough of a shame that sailing was dropped from paralympics because it is a sport that disabled people can do really well.  Getting 2 or 3 events back in the paralympics should be a goal of World Sailing. They really messed up on that.

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1 hour ago, Bruce Hudson said:

All cycling is, however I don't think track cycling is bigger (more participants) than all of sailing. Besides, if it was proportional to the number of participants, then road cycling would have many times the medals as track cycling.

 

 

One additional point.  IOC does not just look at the number of participants, it also has to take account of the number of fans/viewers.    Some sports have relatively small number of participants but a very large fan base/viewership.  I suspect that a lot more people watch the tour de france than the AC and a lot more watch cycling Olympics than sailing.

If kite boarding brings in viewers then possibly sailing can up the number of events in sailing as a whole.  Windsurfing did not bring in viewers.

When IOC organizes the games it is a balance of hosting sports for athletes but also putting on a show for the physical and TV audience.   London did the best job for sailing.

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