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New luxury yacht tax in Canada


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1 minute ago, robtoujours said:

Disingenuous but clever! :wub: 

Actually almost spot on ... Except for lucky elites (musicians cosmonauts airplane engineers etc) work was absurd. Money irrelevant. Oh and even the élites gtfoutta there when they could. Milstein. Heifetz. The list is very long.

The final communist utopia unattained and unattainable. Tyrannical dictatorship is permanent.

Open your eyes man.

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You do not have a clue WTF you are talking about. I was in the business back then and it resulted in the layoff of 3/4s of the blue collar working people at our shop and many others. The rich people g

But no one will pay it. No one did last time. This would just be the "hide your boat in Annapolis or Miami" law. Every rich(ish) person I know would be more than happy to pay someone $149,999.99

Cross border personality disorder. Damned contagious, I tell you.

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33 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

In the beginning of the video the driver is on my road and turns 2 blocks before my old home. My old grade school is on the left.

Be sure to give a bunch of money to these people that you earned and leave my money alone. I’ve given enough, thank you. 

This is getting absurdly personal.

I skipped out on a job in Kensignton around 1990. Drove down to the small industrial biz and saif, no fucking way. This place makes driving through Camden to get to Pine point marina look quaint and enjoyable.

Fuck. Crazy you grew up there. Back in the day nice Polish neighborhood. Then went to shit. 70s a lot of hoods went to shit all over Phila.

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Yep. Bu no one else took the time to watch the video or they would see the broken infrastructure, closed businesses and the myriad of trashed out white people ruined by their own choices. sure, give them some money to make their lack of equality more equitable and see where it winds up. 
 

You don’t see the neighborhood residents, the Puerto Rican’s, slogging around in a drug induced stupor. Thy are busy working and looking on in utter horror like I did as a kid. They are not asking for what social Democrats want to offer. They don’t want it going into the gutter that they have been escaping as a group since they arrive from NYC in 1972. 
 

Yes, I grew up there and was stabbed a couple of times. It made me who I am and there are a lot of imperfections and PTSD associated with my upbringing, but I am my children’s father and I’ve given them the chance to never live like that. I don’t need my kids stepping in junkie puke and needles.

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What our foreign friends here not realize is that guns werent a big problem until 70s and it all went completely out of hand. Getting shot was a sinificant risk. Still is. In parts of Philadelphia.

Good working class black (and white) neighborhoods wrnt into death spirals once the drug gangs armed up. No longer eould Mrs Jones take you by the ear to your uncle when she found you up to no good.

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Those were the good old days. 
 Once the crack showed up, we had a lot of black people from West Philly come to the area to buy.
 

When heroin took over, it was the whites from NJ and the suburbs that showed up in 1995 or so. Neither left. They literally abandoned their cars in front of my home since they were broke and hooked for life. Give them anything and they will blow it

 

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1 hour ago, fastyacht said:

Clearly you never spent any time in Eastern Europe.

Fuck.

The old Yugoslavia was a case in point. Went there whilst travelling cross country from Greece back up to Austria in the very late seventies and couldn't believe the amount of rotting food still in the fields. We managed to find a sort of English / German speaker and we asked why aren't all the food crops harvested seeing as we had seen town shops with little or no vegetables on the shelves.

The answer came back, they were given seeds and payment to plant them, they were not paid to pick them so they left them in the fields.

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So are food stamps and safe injection sites simply an inconvenient disincentive on the way to an otherwise boot strap utopia?

Lost in the discussion are the narrower definitions of Leninism as it relates to Marxist theory, a recognition of pejorative slang as it relates to Commie this and Commie that, a distinction between Social Democracy and Democratic Socialism, Socialism, Capitalism if it actually exists in a pure form, Democracy if it exists and what it entails, and probably throw in Benevolent Despotism for good measure.

If this is a discussion about a Canadian luxury tax, then I'll go ahead and make the distinction between equity/equality as a societal goal, and the broader perhaps more realistic goal of achieving a compassionate society with a safety net underneath a 'relatively' free market economy. I suppose we, as a society, have chosen this course, as have many European nations that fall somewhere within the spectrum of Social Democracy and Democratic Socialism. 

As far as industry specific taxation in capitalist economies, this is nothing new. Capital flight can be the undesirable result, and a dance between various federal governments, states/provinces and corporations goes on everyday around this very issue. The jurisdiction with the biggest tax breaks competes for the factory or contract. If no state/province can devise a tax break package to compete with lower wages(and taxes) offered by a foreign entity, the capital leaves the country or leaves the marketplace altogether. 

As for the luxury yacht tax, on the one hand it seems like its pretty much just window dressing. For the very few luxury builds built in Canada and bought by a Canadian, presumably the buyer has the option to flag the boat elsewhere if the 10% above 250k becomes so exorbitant that its worth their while. For other builds closer to the target price, the 10% might just be paid by the luxury buyer(yes, just like the sin tax on a pack of cigs or a bottle of booze)...I dunno...and yeah I do recognize that certain tax structures have hit Canadian boat builders hard in the past(70's ability to write off). Ask yourself, as the tax also refers to cars over 100k, how many luxury buyers spend way more than 10% on options etc. so the theory is that the luxury buyer will absorb the tax. In practice? We'll see. On the other not so invisible hand, I'd think that remaining Canadian builders will go through the roof on this and lobby for the tax to apply only to foreign builders. Again, we'll see. 

As far as this luxury sales tax(read tariff on goods coming into the country) hurting any foreign builders, again any Canadian buyer of a foreign built high ticket luxury yacht would again, presumably flag the boat somewhere else and buy it with an LLC, if that's what they really wanted to do.

 

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1 hour ago, fufkin said:

So are food stamps and safe injection sites simply an inconvenient disincentive on the way to an otherwise boot strap utopia?

Lost in the discussion are the narrower definitions of Leninism as it relates to Marxist theory, a recognition of pejorative slang as it relates to Commie this and Commie that, a distinction between Social Democracy and Democratic Socialism, Socialism, Capitalism if it actually exists in a pure form, Democracy if it exists and what it entails, and probably throw in Benevolent Despotism for good measure.

If this is a discussion about a Canadian luxury tax, then I'll go ahead and make the distinction between equity/equality as a societal goal, and the broader perhaps more realistic goal of achieving a compassionate society with a safety net underneath a 'relatively' free market economy. I suppose we, as a society, have chosen this course, as have many European nations that fall somewhere within the spectrum of Social Democracy and Democratic Socialism. 

As far as industry specific taxation in capitalist economies, this is nothing new. Capital flight can be the undesirable result, and a dance between various federal governments, states/provinces and corporations goes on everyday around this very issue. The jurisdiction with the biggest tax breaks competes for the factory or contract. If no state/province can devise a tax break package to compete with lower wages(and taxes) offered by a foreign entity, the capital leaves the country or leaves the marketplace altogether. 

As for the luxury yacht tax, on the one hand it seems like its pretty much just window dressing. For the very few luxury builds built in Canada and bought by a Canadian, presumably the buyer has the option to flag the boat elsewhere if the 10% above 250k becomes so exorbitant that its worth their while. For other builds closer to the target price, the 10% might just be paid by the luxury buyer(yes, just like the sin tax on a pack of cigs or a bottle of booze)...I dunno...and yeah I do recognize that certain tax structures have hit Canadian boat builders hard in the past(70's ability to write off). Ask yourself, as the tax also refers to cars over 100k, how many luxury buyers spend way more than 10% on options etc. so the theory is that the luxury buyer will absorb the tax. In practice? We'll see. On the other not so invisible hand, I'd think that remaining Canadian builders will go through the roof on this and lobby for the tax to apply only to foreign builders. Again, we'll see. 

As far as this luxury sales tax(read tariff on goods coming into the country) hurting any foreign builders, again any Canadian buyer of a foreign built high ticket luxury yacht would again, presumably flag the boat somewhere else and buy it with an LLC, if that's what they really wanted to do.

 

My understanding is that you can flag it somewhere else, but as soon as you use in in Canadian waters, the tax is due.

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14 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

My understanding is that you can flag it somewhere else, but as soon as you use in in Canadian waters, the tax is due.

As Peter Nygard found out on an incident in the 70s.

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2 hours ago, fufkin said:

So are food stamps and safe injection sites simply an inconvenient disincentive on the way to an otherwise boot strap utopia?

Great question and one that needs to be in the lens applied to comments from ardent capitalists such as me. I hope nobody really sees it that way and that what you state in part as a societal goal, a compassionate society with a safety net, is shared by most of us. Hopefully you are ok with my parsing of your comment. 

Where I begin to diverge is the place where a compassionate safety net is stretched into equity by taxing the living daylights out of me to support those who don't get up every day and do the hard things to flourish. I work hard in pursuit of a life that wants for few important things and which gives me the ability to support my family and others as I choose. It goes without saying that I aspire to have a retirement free from financial worry and the impetus to chase orders, buy new machines to increase quality and margins, maintain the building and property I have taken 20 years to pay for, and to really work to support my people comes from this retirement goal in large part. 

If a compassionate society means pulling me down and others up so that we can all enjoy the same standard of life then I say it is a flawed societal aspiration and one that would clearly be a disincentive to hard work and the success that comes with it. 

 

 

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5 hours ago, danstanford said:

I have a buddy that was part of the Children of Chernobyl program and he travelled there twice. His observation was that everybody was loafing about other than the thieves in his hotel that stole all his cash from his room. His interpretation was that people saw no benefit in trying hard so they did as little as they could. Life was without much sparkle for these people but they did have a place to live and food to eat. 

Total thread creep, but pre-meltdown Chernobyl sounded like a Soviet paradise. The town was relatively new, the area was nice with woods and a river with nice swimming beaches, and they even had a yacht club. Until they blew the place up they had it pretty good.

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4 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

In GDR they had yacht clubs too. The boats eere built by clubmembers. Each factory that made somethingbof utility provided via black market.

I liked reading about flying clubs in the USSR back in the day. They were no place near any border and the planes had no nav gear. They concentrated on aerobatics and if you were good enough that became your job. They dominated aerobatic competitions for a long time.

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5 hours ago, fastyacht said:

Actually almost spot on ... Except for lucky elites (musicians cosmonauts airplane engineers etc) work was absurd. Money irrelevant. Oh and even the élites gtfoutta there when they could. Milstein. Heifetz. The list is very long.

The final communist utopia unattained and unattainable. Tyrannical dictatorship is permanent.

Open your eyes man.

So what ?

Eastern Europe was certainly mostly dysfunctional nowadays nobody is proposing to re-enact this system. You still haven't noticed it but communism is dead, at best it is an empty slur word in the US.

When I see @Sail4beer video, I see a non-functioning society that let lot of people into poverty whereas the US is the richest country. Does not make me want to replicate it!

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1 hour ago, fastyacht said:

In GDR they had yacht clubs too. The boats eere built by clubmembers. Each factory that made somethingbof utility provided via black market.

That actually sounds like fun in a "make the best of it" kind of way.

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Another thing about Chernobyl that was fascinating was how meritocratic the USSR was - to a point. You could be living in a one-room hut eating raw squirrels and if you did well in school, you could well end up an engineer or doctor or PhD scientist in a way that seemed amazingly easy.

It was all good until you hit the communist glass ceiling, if you weren't sucking off the right party officials and spouting the right bullshit you hit a wall and that was that. Also being Jewish didn't help :rolleyes:

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48 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

That actually sounds like fun in a "make the best of it" kind of way.

The first film of Polanski- “Knife in the water” is an interesting look at an aspect of this. filmed in Poland in the early 60s

featuring a yacht (Rekin) reportedly owned by Goering, sunk, and subsequently restored. Beautiful camerawork. 
 

poland has a surprisingly large industry for producing leisure craft to this day

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Interesting dinner conversation on the topic. Tax Income or tax consumption.. My children ( late 2os early 30s) world travellers, college education,, both said "Tax consumption" they did not hesitate when they said it . if I  use it charge me, if i dont use it  dont make me pay for it..  interesting POV from the future.

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2 hours ago, Panoramix said:

So what ?

Eastern Europe was certainly mostly dysfunctional nowadays nobody is proposing to re-enact this system. You still haven't noticed it but communism is dead, at best it is an empty slur word in the US.

When I see @Sail4beer video, I see a non-functioning society that let lot of people into poverty whereas the US is the richest country. Does not make me want to replicate it!

When someone upthread spouts off shopworn manifesto utopian bullshit, I call it out. Period. Eastern Europe was that experiment in the flesh.

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2 minutes ago, break my wallet said:

Interesting dinner conversation on the topic. Tax Income or tax consumption.. My children ( late 2os early 30s) world travellers, college education,, both said "Tax consumption" they did not hesitate when they said it . if I  use it charge me, if i dont use it  dont make me pay for it..  interesting POV from the future.

Dont worrt. Theyll flip once they get "real' jobs jaha.

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27 minutes ago, robtoujours said:

The first film of Polanski- “Knife in the water” is an interesting look at an aspect of this. filmed in Poland in the early 60s

featuring a yacht (Rekin) reportedly owned by Goering, sunk, and subsequently restored. Beautiful camerawork. 
 

poland has a surprisingly large industry for producing leisure craft to this day

I like Poland. That’s one tough country that has kept its collective shit together from day one. 

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8 hours ago, robtoujours said:

In the Soviet Union you went to work or you went to prison. No loafing about! Lenin was no fan of welfare moms

When I was in the USA I worked with a bunch of emigres from the old USSR - they got out after the collapse.

2 of their favourite sayings were 'they pretend to pay us and we pretend to work'.

The other one was 'nobody is going to shoot you for being wrong' - this is reference to their CURRENT employer.

As for holding up China as an exemplar we should all aspire to - tell that to the Uighurs for one group, the Taiwanese for another and pretty much every country on their borders.

FKT

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33 minutes ago, break my wallet said:

Interesting dinner conversation on the topic. Tax Income or tax consumption.. My children ( late 2os early 30s) world travellers, college education,, both said "Tax consumption" they did not hesitate when they said it . if I  use it charge me, if i dont use it  dont make me pay for it..  interesting POV from the future.

Fantastic dinner conversation if you ask me, as is the certainty with which they answered. I believe since they come from a house having such conversations that they will be smart enough to struggle over time with the complex situations that arise. 

The best user pay vs all pay question exists here in Ontario in the canal systems. Only a small percentage of us use them but it is hard to contemplate what would happen if we stopped supporting/subsidizing them and the irrevocable loss they would represent. Post secondary education in Ontario is subsidized to the tune of about 66% and I think Go is at similar levels. 

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1 hour ago, fastyacht said:

When someone upthread spouts off shopworn manifesto utopian bullshit, I call it out. Period. Eastern Europe was that experiment in the flesh.

In eastern Europe private companies were forbidden. I don't think that anybody here is advocating this kind of stuff! You can't compare.

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4 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I liked reading about flying clubs in the USSR back in the day. They were no place near any border and the planes had no nav gear. They concentrated on aerobatics and if you were good enough that became your job. They dominated aerobatic competitions for a long time.

And then there was the inboud GA....like the teenager from west Germany who dropped in on red square.

Mathias-Rust-flying-over--008.jpg?width=

_64603454_rust-redsq2.jpg

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1 hour ago, Panoramix said:

In eastern Europe private companies were forbidden. I don't think that anybody here is advocating this kind of stuff! You can't compare.

Just go read laker or somebody else (?) explanation. Sounds to me like advocating for it but whatever.

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Once upon a time I owned a Diamant bicycle. Made in GDR in the 1960s. Very well made bike with lightweight parts for the time. Before the soviets ran out of trade and essentially went bankrupt, the Germans made out pretty well--they were basically the cream of the crop in the satellites, with the choicest contracts--got the best deal from the Russians (for the most part) financially. But that started to unravel in the 70s. Back earlier though, there were absurdities which only increased with time--since money wasn't worth anything outside official aspects, there was always a brisk black market. A whole lot of people were in on it but you had to be careful and know who the political snitchers were. Again this is how nice sailboats were built.

And then because you were never going to get rich anyway, might as well do what you love. So if you loved bikes, well, build them! Ship design? Go do that!  However because it was the "dictatorship of the proletariat" college jobs payed less than labour. So for instance you made considerably more East German Marks as a welder than as an engineer...some young families needing an apartment or a car (get in line!) would switch to welding from engineering to make more fake money. Then switch back later.

A contorted top down economy is bizarre.

Another thing: everyone learned Russian in school. But by the 90s if you asked, "oh I don't remember it." Yet everyone's reference books were in Cyrillic. The Russians were not well-loved--but the political officer types and snitch types collaborated.

Oh and then how about the people shot and killed crossing the border? What was with that?  Well, the Army was mandatory. But some people with issues were keen to be border guards--so you ended up with trouble...I know someone my age who had to serve as a guard during army duty. He told me about this problem.

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15 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

I remember that! Wasn't he 14 or somethign?

 

18 or 19 (depending on source) I got it wrong he flew from Helsinking not west Germany (would have been less of an obvious threat). Best part total of 50 hours total flying time before his big adventure.

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6 hours ago, fastyacht said:

Just go read laker or somebody else (?) explanation. Sounds to me like advocating for it but whatever.

Where did you read this ?

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12 hours ago, Panoramix said:

In eastern Europe private companies were forbidden. I don't think that anybody here is advocating this kind of stuff! You can't compare.

That's the end result regardless if you hate private sector success and tax success until the private sector can't survive.  Penalize efficiency and success, and redistribute to the lowest denominator.  Brilliant.

The entitlement attitude is BS.  I worked my ass off to get from having nothing to get an education and a good paying career, and now the spoiled prick younger generation expects to get it for free.  While I was studying to become skilled in my profession, others partied, and now I need to give my hard work away to slackers and their kids?  Fuck that.  When you can't reap what you sow as a mantra for your society, that society is doomed.  Why do you think communist China transitioned to a market economy?  Because millions starved for fuck sake!

And to be clear, write offs and subsidies for corporate corruption and bailouts are just as bad.  Those come about as govt extortion by contibuting to the DNC and RNC as well as relevant individual politicians election funds.  We all know it. Until we vote out incumbents to get political contributions laws reformed, nothing will change.

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25 minutes ago, bgytr said:

The entitlement attitude is BS.  I worked my ass off to get from having nothing to get an education and a good paying career, and now the spoiled prick younger generation expects to get it for free.  While I was studying to become skilled in my profession, others partied, and now I need to give my hard work away to slackers and their kids?  Fuck that.  When you can't reap what you sow as a mantra for your society, that society is doomed.  Why do you think communist China transitioned to a market economy?  Because millions starved for fuck sake!

Nobody here is asking to return to Communist China...

As for the boomer generation working hard to get what they got, they did it riddling the following generations with environmental and financial debts. It is simply not true that older generations owe nothing to the younger ones.

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I read this in college...mostly to help understand where some of the people I didn't favour were comming from

440px-Atlas_Shrugged_(1957_1st_ed)_-_Ayn

But I didn't know anyone who actually thought it a basis for rigorous economic analysis.

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5 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

Nobody here is asking to return to Communist China...

As for the boomer generation working hard to get what they got, they did it riddling the following generations with environmental and financial debts. It is simply not true that older generations owe nothing to the younger ones.

Environmental and financial debts are a byproduct of foolish government policy mostly brought about from corruption through the economics of campaign financing.  If we older folks owe anything to the younger generation it is to change how political monies work.  Everything else is lip service.

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4 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

As for the boomer generation working hard to get what they got, they did it riddling the following generations with environmental and financial debts. It is simply not true that older generations owe nothing to the younger ones.

OK, I get it. I hear all the time from people claiming the previous generations have left them in a fiscal mess, and I sympathize. What I don't get is the attitude seemingly expressed by the same people that government needs to come to the table with a stronger social safety net, fully paid post-secondary education, better child care programs and all the other things that dig us deeper into debt. Politicians give us exactly what we want or they don't get re-elected. 

Today it seems everyone is celebrating the politicians who are mortgaging our future to deal with Covid related issues stemming primarily from lock-downs. Those who don't lock down hard enough are relentlessly punished in the press for their failure to save us from this horrible virus. Please don't see me as someone against the lockdowns, I really cannot tell if they are the best strategy or not so I personally am good with them. My point is that today when I warn against fiscal irresponsibility I am painted with a brush of mean spirited capitalist and tomorrow I am going to be blamed for the mess the younger people are going to have to pay for. 

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48 minutes ago, danstanford said:

OK, I get it. I hear all the time from people claiming the previous generations have left them in a fiscal mess, and I sympathize. What I don't get is the attitude seemingly expressed by the same people that government needs to come to the table with a stronger social safety net, fully paid post-secondary education, better child care programs and all the other things that dig us deeper into debt. Politicians give us exactly what we want or they don't get re-elected. 

There are 2 ends to a string. You can have big government without massive debts if you are paying for it, this is what happened after WW2 in many countries. During the 80's a bunch of rightwingers imposed their views of reduced taxes (at least on corporations) and financed it by increasing debts, now we are paying it very dearly, governments/states are so indebted that they've become weak and financial institutions are ruling the world. Banks and funds are loving it, for them debt => turnover. So when older guys say "I got where I am through hard work and I owe nothing to the young generations", it just makes me smile. You need a narrow field of vision to think that. As for health and education being paid for by government, you don't need to be a communist to like it, you just need to love your wallet. Experience shows that at the end it works out cheaper. In the US where it is mostly private, healthcare and further education are horribly more expensive than the extra tax you would have to pay to get it publicly funded. Plus well educated people in good health tend to be more productive... win-win.

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1 hour ago, danstanford said:

debt. Politicians give us exactly what we want or they don't get re-elected.

Actually, they promise to give us what we want. Whether they deliver on it is another matter. I hear grumbling about our President pushing through legislation that isn’t bipartisan as he promised. Oh well...

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39 minutes ago, quod umbra said:

^^^^^ What you think will happen^^^^^

What will actually happen......

If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

2cartoon.4.26.21.jpg?ve=1&tl=1

Fuuuuk that is pathetically cynically funny!

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1 hour ago, fastyacht said:

Fuuuuk that is pathetically cynically funny!

Higher taxes in general = everyone is paying to provide a civilized place to live.

Higher taxes on boats and airplanes specifically = let's fuck with people that can do things I can't do so I'll feel better and it won't actually bring in any revenue.

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On 4/20/2021 at 1:59 AM, Foolish said:

The government just announced a new tax of 20% of the retail price of a yacht over and above $250,000.  So anyone buying a $1 million yacht will pay an extra $150,000.    Thankfully, it's not something I'll ever have to worry about.

 my oh my, what a harsh tax :o

we have 50% tax on EVERY, new or used sailboat in Russia

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1 hour ago, fastyacht said:

I went aboard Fazizi decades ago. Met the crew! I dont think she was taxed. Times sure have changed.

Me too. That boat STANK, a unique combination of diesel and cabbage :o  Respect for anyone that got around the world on that thing, I wouldn't have lasted 20 miles.

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As Thomas Sowell said,

“ If you can offer choices to the poor to help them achieve, don’t leave the choices to the academics or the government.”

I hate that AJ had to sit though a lecture with such horrible accusations. I bet the q&a was interesting 

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2 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

As Thomas Sowell said

Not a fan of his, as you may gather. He is getting seriously long in the tooth. 

But I have a man crush on Bob Reich. 

Robert Reich Cartoons

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My my how clueless can you be RTJ, AJO and Laker?

What we need to do is remove the barriers to opportunity. Yet our political elite, with your support, would rather sow the seeds of hate and divisiveness. The path to more power is NOT by actually fixing our societal ills, unfortunately.


That is the real obstacle, not the ones in the cartoons that play in the left's head.

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On 4/28/2021 at 7:32 AM, KC375 said:

I read this in college...mostly to help understand where some of the people I didn't favour were comming from

440px-Atlas_Shrugged_(1957_1st_ed)_-_Ayn

But I didn't know anyone who actually thought it a basis for rigorous economic analysis.

I could never read that. Fountainhead was already way too much, but architecture and stone quarries in CT. Oh and very fucked up characters.

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12 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

Damn straight, Fast. Remember who was a decapitated famous French inventor.

Guillotine....

Along with a bunch of rent seeking leeches who though that because they had all the money they should get to keep all the money.

Another failed experiment, little older than communism but no less important, capitalism works as long as we can avoid hereditary capitalism. Social mobility is essential to long term societal stability and needs to be more than token/anecdotal.

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2 hours ago, quod umbra said:

My my how clueless can you be RTJ, AJO and Laker?

What we need to do is remove the barriers to opportunity. Yet our political elite, with your support, would rather sow the seeds of hate and divisiveness. The path to more power is NOT by actually fixing our societal ills, unfortunately.


That is the real obstacle, not the ones in the cartoons that play in the left's head.

Another one who has not read "Moral Sentiments" by Adam Smith.  There were many wrongs that came out of the concept of being a gentleman, but modern democracy, especially American Republicanism, was one.  Leadership and responsibility to society are two of the concepts that seem diminished in today's governance.   We just went through an era of a president that is a bully and a coward, not a leader of men.  With a leader that indeed sets up obstacles to opportunity by creating those elites, how do you expect people to react? Our culture is what we are.  Don't blame the people asking "Is my eye hurting your elbow?".

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1 hour ago, JohnMB said:

capitalism works as long as we can avoid hereditary capitalism

Sounds like you have read your Piketty. 

The guy is brilliant (as is his team). 

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36 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

The creator of modern chemistry was guillotined.

 

Quite ironic that you say this. Chemistry was mostly a hobby for him. His job was to collect taxes and this is why he got murdered by Robespierre and co.

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On 4/28/2021 at 7:35 AM, bgytr said:

If we older folks owe anything to the younger generation it is to change how political monies work.  Everything else is lip service.

Libertarians totally fail to grasp that all of us stand on the shoulders of giants; those who gave their lives so that later generations could live in a modicum of freedom, who gave us art and language, who built the water treatment & health & education & transportation infrastructures. 

The list is long. 

They sacrificed so that we could lead better lives. 

We totally owe it to them to do the same for those who follow us. 

Isaac said it well . . 

image.jpeg.d125b461029ff082e47849f03e597a4d.jpeg

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5 hours ago, fastyacht said:

I could never read that. Fountainhead was already way too much, but architecture and stone quarries in CT. Oh and very fucked up characters.

Yeah I read a lot of weird stuff (off curriculum as I was in geophysics) from Wealth of Nations to Das Kapital...Old Man and the Sea to Finnegans Wake OK tried and tried but I could never get more than ¼ way through Finnegans  Joyce broke me.

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I always found rereadable. Ironic now. 
 

finnegabs wake - interesting onanism. Prefer anything by flann o brien - like the third policeman. Weird enough and nails the ending

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1 hour ago, AJ Oliver said:

Libertarians totally fail to grasp that all of us stand on the shoulders of giants; those who gave their lives so that later generations could live in a modicum of freedom, who gave us art and language, who built the water treatment & health & education & transportation infrastructures. 

The list is long. 

They sacrificed so that we could lead better lives. 

We totally owe it to them to do the same for those who follow us. 

Isaac said it well . . 

image.jpeg.d125b461029ff082e47849f03e597a4d.jpeg

Many of the people commenting are sitting on their own shoulders.

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7 hours ago, Laker said:

Another one who has not read "Moral Sentiments" by Adam Smith.  There were many wrongs that came out of the concept of being a gentleman, but modern democracy, especially American Republicanism, was one.  Leadership and responsibility to society are two of the concepts that seem diminished in today's governance.   We just went through an era of a president that is a bully and a coward, not a leader of men.  With a leader that indeed sets up obstacles to opportunity by creating those elites, how do you expect people to react? Our culture is what we are.  Don't blame the people asking "Is my eye hurting your elbow?".

No argument from me that the previous president was a bit smash-mouth. Heck that was one of his more endearing qualities to nearly half the nation.
Yeah, Adam Smith..... which one? LOL

I did try and read Nostradamus, got about half way through..... but the breeze came up and we made our way into Hiva Oa.

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3 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

Libertarians totally fail to grasp that blah, blah, blah.....

Liberals always fail to understand that Libertarians recognize and understand that there is a need for moral and ethical foundation for Libertarianism to actually work.
Liberals always take potshots and libertarians. Never fails.

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2 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Many of the people commenting are sitting on their own shoulders.

Bravo. Even if I’m included in that group. 
 

 

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1 hour ago, quod umbra said:

Liberals always fail to understand that Libertarians recognize and understand that there is a need for moral and ethical foundation for Libertarianism to actually work.

Yep, agreed.

This is the reason that, just like Communism, Libertarianism is more akin to a religion than anything else.

Because humans are the wrong species. The best we manage is intelligent self-interest and deferred gratification.

And damn few can manage either.

FKT

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3 hours ago, quod umbra said:

Liberals always fail to understand that Libertarians recognize and understand that there is a need for moral and ethical foundation for Libertarianism to actually work.
Liberals always take potshots and libertarians. Never fails.

The failure of Libertarians is that they have a hard time carrying the moral and ethical foundation.  When I look back on business, the majority of times I have been thoroughly screwed is by born again Christians.  This has an effect on my view of them.

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4 hours ago, quod umbra said:

Liberals always take potshots and libertarians. Never fails.

Dude, it was YOUR ELK that wrote above that he had no debt to past generations. 

Y'all keep offering up those hanging curves . . 

and we will keep crushing them. 

At least we got him to put a sock in it - however briefly. 

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8 hours ago, quod umbra said:

Liberals always fail to understand that Libertarians recognize and understand that there is a need for moral and ethical foundation for Libertarianism to actually work.
Liberals always take potshots and libertarians. Never fails.

I fear that you are living in a Disney fantasy world. History shows that without balancing powers some individuals will abuse freedoms of others.

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