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New luxury yacht tax in Canada


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35 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

Now THOSE FUCKERS get me on the move! Had a third attempt this year! One already stole the sailing on somecyears ago.

Makes a cynic into an enraged maniac.

I’ve painted the transom yellow and use locks and so on, but yeah, any thieving fuck who messes with mine is gonna get cut

A liveaboard i know bought a dinghy for his boat, 2nd hand, turned out it was stolen. So he went to replace it with a dinghy from some other guy - turned out to be stolen as well! Not unusual to hear

if I had a better outboard I’d put a tracker on it. 

 

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You do not have a clue WTF you are talking about. I was in the business back then and it resulted in the layoff of 3/4s of the blue collar working people at our shop and many others. The rich people g

But no one will pay it. No one did last time. This would just be the "hide your boat in Annapolis or Miami" law. Every rich(ish) person I know would be more than happy to pay someone $149,999.99

Cross border personality disorder. Damned contagious, I tell you.

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20 hours ago, Laker said:

The failure of Libertarians is that they have a hard time carrying the moral and ethical foundation.  When I look back on business, the majority of times I have been thoroughly screwed is by born again Christians.  This has an effect on my view of them.

Well I don't know about that. BaC I have ever dealt with were all dependable folks.

As for carrying the moral and ethical foundation, same could be said of capitalism. And frankly doubly so about a command market and redistributionists.

The difference being, at least as a capitalist and libertarian I get to decide what works for me and my family.....

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1 hour ago, quod umbra said:

Well I don't know about that. BaC I have ever dealt with were all dependable folks.

As for carrying the moral and ethical foundation, same could be said of capitalism. And frankly doubly so about a command market and redistributionists.

The difference being, at least as a capitalist and libertarian I get to decide what works for me and my family.....

Somalia is that-a-way if you want 'freedum'.

Otherwise you live in a more or less capitalist system with heavy controls that currently aren't working too well.

FKT

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2 hours ago, quod umbra said:

Well I don't know about that. BaC I have ever dealt with were all dependable folks.

As for carrying the moral and ethical foundation, same could be said of capitalism. And frankly doubly so about a command market and redistributionists.

The difference being, at least as a capitalist and libertarian I get to decide what works for me and my family.....

Well, I do know about that.

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There's a really common response to tax proposals like this one which goes, "why should I have to pay more for being successful/meritorious/shrewd?" You can see this exact sentiment in many different forms throughout this thread (not naming names), and expressed broadly in American politics. The idea being that if we live in a meritocracy, then success implies merit, so taxing success is the same as penalizing merit. But it's actually fairly simple to show how a "meritocracy" isn't a stable or consistent system beyond the first generation.

 

In Generation 1, two couples are working in a meritocratic system. One couple performs better and is more meritorious than the other couple. The successful couple does well for themselves, and the unsuccessful couple does not. So far so good--this is classic meritocracy with a light dusting of social darwinism on top.

 

But in Generation 2, things get fucked. The successful couple from Gen 1 is able to spend more time with their children and can afford buying them books and stimulating toys, sending their kids to Pre-K, tutoring, and college prep, and college entrance exams and application fees. The unsuccessful couple struggles to afford the time or money for some or all of these. Furthermore, having poorer parents leads to a number of additional problems (such as in nutrition or literacy) and is generally a barrier to the success of children. This cycle propagates itself for every subsequent generation: the children of unsuccessful parents are much less likely to succeed, and when they become parents they pass this curse on in turn.

 

This is the end of true meritocracy in just 2 generations. The children of poor parents are "punished for the sins of their father", as it were. People born to wealthy, college-educated parents automatically have a leg up over people who didn't have that support growing up. And if your first thought on hearing this is "well, I didn't have that growing up and I still succeeded!", then not only were you lucky to beat the odds against you, but consider how much more successful you might have been if you did grow up with those advantages.

 

I'm not saying that one tax on yachts will fix this problem. Nor am I saying that it's wrong for parents to try to give their children as many advantages as possible (so long as you don't pull a Lori Loughlin). But it is clear that we do not live in an actual meritocracy so long as children's success is defined, or even merely impacted, by their parent's success. Here's a great article by economist Dr. Robert Frank on this very subject and, in particular, why people tend to overestimate their own role in their success: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/05/why-luck-matters-more-than-you-might-think/476394/

 

tl;dr Meritocracy doesn't logically work because subsequent generations are buoyed or burdened by the success or failure of their parents, thereby eroding or erasing entirely the role of personal merit in one's own success.

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I don't know.  Seeing what is going on in the boatyards at the moment, I have a horrible feeling that cruising in the PNW is about to be ruined the same way that downhill skiing is now ruined - too many people all trying to do the same thing at the same time.  

The huge increase in equity in people's homes is being turned into boats at an astonishing rate.  Where the fuck are we going to be able to anchor from now on?

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“Shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations” is a common adage in respect of intergenerational transfer of wealth and family businesses. The first generation creates the wealth, the second stewards it and the third consumes it. Sadly, less than 10% of family wealth survives the transition to the third generation.

https://www.advisor.ca/tax/estate-planning/four-reasons-intergenerational-wealth-is-destroyed-in-3-generations/

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2 minutes ago, Rain Man said:

I don't know.  Seeing what is going on in the boatyards at the moment, I have a horrible feeling that cruising in the PNW is about to be ruined the same way that downhill skiing is now ruined - too many people all trying to do the same thing at the same time.  

The huge increase in equity in people's homes is being turned into boats at an astonishing rate.  Where the fuck are we going to be able to anchor from now on?

Just off the reserved mooring field for the casino and marina in Squirrel Cove.

wtrFVCZ.jpg

 

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1 hour ago, Ishmael said:

“Shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations” is a common adage in respect of intergenerational transfer of wealth and family businesses. The first generation creates the wealth, the second stewards it and the third consumes it. Sadly, less than 10% of family wealth survives the transition to the third generation.

https://www.advisor.ca/tax/estate-planning/four-reasons-intergenerational-wealth-is-destroyed-in-3-generations/

Really this is why Nepotism is dumb. The liklihood your kids are good at what you do is needle haystack territory. Unless you are an actor. Then again most acting sucks,...........

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9 hours ago, fastyacht said:

Really this is why Nepotism is dumb. The liklihood your kids are good at what you do is needle haystack territory. Unless you are an actor. Then again most acting sucks,...........

A pitch the size of a damn grapefruit.

Who's gonna swing for the fences folks?

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12 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Somalia is that-a-way if you want 'freedum'.

Otherwise you live in a more or less capitalist system with heavy controls that currently aren't working too well.

FKT

I would submit that the warlords are closer to our political elite than you give them credit for.

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5 hours ago, quod umbra said:

Maybe they were reacting to your radical atheism? 

Just good old United Church of  Canada

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So I guess only the successful should have children? Or, maybe the State rears everyone’s children to ensure a level playing field? That sounds like the logical extension (and a prescription for mass mediocrity). What about the couple who aren’t blessed with material or educational advantages but just do a great job of rearing successful kids? We’ve all seen examples; maybe some here qualify. Are they to be handicapped? Why is a financially successful couple’s using its advantages any different? It could well be the driving force behind it’s success-to provide a leg up for their offspring. 
 

Someone once cautioned me, “Beware of those who take things to their logical extremes, for they are, by definition, ‘extremists’.” 

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3 hours ago, quod umbra said:

That's a thing?
Is that like code for "Guy LeFleur is God!"

Actually a neat story.

The Halifax explosion damaged or destroyed most of the churches in the city, so there was a scramble to pool resources for both relief work and facilities for worship.  The local Methodist and Presbyterian congregations built a new shared church which eventually leading to a national merger.

All of the Methodist and Congregational churches, along with most of the Presbyterians were amalgamated into the United Church of Canada about 100 years ago.

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53 minutes ago, Tax Man said:

Actually a neat story.

The Halifax explosion damaged or destroyed most of the churches in the city, so there was a scramble to pool resources for both relief work and facilities for worship.  The local Methodist and Presbyterian congregations built a new shared church which eventually leading to a national merger.

All of the Methodist and Congregational churches, along with most of the Presbyterians were amalgamated into the United Church of Canada about 100 years ago.

I never knew about this! But Methodism is a distillation of Anglican, whereas Prespbys are Calvinists.   HOw on earth do you merge those theologies?

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On 4/30/2021 at 8:54 PM, Commercial Boater said:

There's a really common response to tax proposals like this one which goes, "why should I have to pay more for being successful/meritorious/shrewd?" You can see this exact sentiment in many different forms throughout this thread (not naming names), and expressed broadly in American politics. The idea being that if we live in a meritocracy, then success implies merit, so taxing success is the same as penalizing merit. But it's actually fairly simple to show how a "meritocracy" isn't a stable or consistent system beyond the first generation.

 

In Generation 1, two couples are working in a meritocratic system. One couple performs better and is more meritorious than the other couple. The successful couple does well for themselves, and the unsuccessful couple does not. So far so good--this is classic meritocracy with a light dusting of social darwinism on top.

 

But in Generation 2, things get fucked. The successful couple from Gen 1 is able to spend more time with their children and can afford buying them books and stimulating toys, sending their kids to Pre-K, tutoring, and college prep, and college entrance exams and application fees. The unsuccessful couple struggles to afford the time or money for some or all of these. Furthermore, having poorer parents leads to a number of additional problems (such as in nutrition or literacy) and is generally a barrier to the success of children. This cycle propagates itself for every subsequent generation: the children of unsuccessful parents are much less likely to succeed, and when they become parents they pass this curse on in turn.

 

This is the end of true meritocracy in just 2 generations. The children of poor parents are "punished for the sins of their father", as it were. People born to wealthy, college-educated parents automatically have a leg up over people who didn't have that support growing up. And if your first thought on hearing this is "well, I didn't have that growing up and I still succeeded!", then not only were you lucky to beat the odds against you, but consider how much more successful you might have been if you did grow up with those advantages.

 

I'm not saying that one tax on yachts will fix this problem. Nor am I saying that it's wrong for parents to try to give their children as many advantages as possible (so long as you don't pull a Lori Loughlin). But it is clear that we do not live in an actual meritocracy so long as children's success is defined, or even merely impacted, by their parent's success. Here's a great article by economist Dr. Robert Frank on this very subject and, in particular, why people tend to overestimate their own role in their success: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/05/why-luck-matters-more-than-you-might-think/476394/

 

tl;dr Meritocracy doesn't logically work because subsequent generations are buoyed or burdened by the success or failure of their parents, thereby eroding or erasing entirely the role of personal merit in one's own success.

This is not really related to the issue at hand. Imagine taxing only black horses but not white ones. Clearly you have it in for black horses and clearly no one will ever buy one again, your tax will raise no revenue and punish everyone associated with black horses.

We tried this before and taxing boats and airplanes over and above anything else raises no revenue at all, it just makes people not buy boats and airplanes and/or keeps lawyers setting up trusts and offshore registries busy.

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2 hours ago, fastyacht said:

I never knew about this! But Methodism is a distillation of Anglican, whereas Prespbys are Calvinists.   HOw on earth do you merge those theologies?

It's easy, just take the Bibles and do this.

1*nftyGHq41-W0JTEzy1IuIw.jpeg

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1 hour ago, kent_island_sailor said:

This is not really related to the issue at hand. Imagine taxing only black horses but not white ones. Clearly you have it in for black horses and clearly no one will ever buy one again, your tax will raise no revenue and punish everyone associated with black horses.

We tried this before and taxing boats and airplanes over and above anything else raises no revenue at all, it just makes people not buy boats and airplanes and/or keeps lawyers setting up trusts and offshore registries busy.

Have yoi kotised thos thrrsd is vecoming qachamole?

 

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4 hours ago, Tax Man said:

Actually a neat story.

Hey Tax Man, would you comment on this proposed luxury tax? I asked earlier a question about that Fleming 65 in Vancouver for sale. Laker would not explain it to me. Why would it be a good thing for Canada to handicap this sale?Why is it good for Canada that a Canadian company like Grand Yachts to take their private money to bring that boat to market, not be able to sell it because of an insulting, avoidable tax?

There is a second hand Fleming 65 available in Seattle. If I bought it, instead of the new one, Canada gets no tax. Grand Yachts just has to keep paying for their boat, they brought to market. It gets older and older. No one makes any money. If this goes on for a long time, technicians will move on, equipment does not get sold and installed and the boating business turns south. I've been to the Vancouver Boat Show. It's impressive with all those vendors in BC Place. What about them? 

Under normal circumstances, I could bring it to Nanaimo as a US yacht as a guest on a cruising permit. I'd have to  return it to Delta Marine once a year to have my varnish work done and "Fly the Flag", renew my cruising permit, and return to Nanaimo. 

Would it not be better for Canada for me to buy that new one and pay all that GST and PST and have all that money that one spends on things related to the sale of a new yacht rolling thru the Vancouver economy? 

If I have it wrong let me know. 

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Pure politics.  The centre-left Liberals are trying to prevent voter leak to the further left NDP by making the rich "pay a little more" by taxing their high visibility consumption.

We don't build cars at that price point, the only private aircraft we build are jets that are way above the price point, and there are very few domestic boat builders.  This means it will mainly hurt foreign manufacturers, but without violating trade agreements because it would apply equally to domestic products if there were any.

What I expect is that there will be very little tax actually collected on boats or airplanes.  The few boat builders we have left will not sell any new boats domestically, but will still be able to repair and export so hopefully will hang on with a changed business model.  Retailers will look to export existing new inventory and change focus to used.  The few people who can afford a private jet will either have it purchased by a foreign subsidiary or switch to charter.

The only piece that will actually generate revenue will be the tax on cars.

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1 hour ago, Tax Man said:

Pure politics.  The centre-left Liberals are trying to prevent voter leak to the further left NDP by making the rich "pay a little more" by taxing their high visibility consumption.

We don't build cars at that price point, the only private aircraft we build are jets that are way above the price point, and there are very few domestic boat builders.  This means it will mainly hurt foreign manufacturers, but without violating trade agreements because it would apply equally to domestic products if there were any.

What I expect is that there will be very little tax actually collected on boats or airplanes.  The few boat builders we have left will not sell any new boats domestically, but will still be able to repair and export so hopefully will hang on with a changed business model.  Retailers will look to export existing new inventory and change focus to used.  The few people who can afford a private jet will either have it purchased by a foreign subsidiary or switch to charter.

The only piece that will actually generate revenue will be the tax on cars.

Thanks for replying. I’m new to Canadian politics and I don’t vote there.

I’m sure this tax is coming and it’s totally political. But, the people it will hurt the most are mislead by the rhetoric “the rich can pay more” .  They can, but they won’t. 

I don’t think it matters who builds the boat. I think it matters who sells the boat. M & P or Grand Yachts or others. These are the victims.  Canadian companies employing Canadian skilled workers are the ones targeted by this tax. 

I’m sure the manufacturer will just send their products to countries that don’t add a 37% tax in addition to import duties. 

Just because there are no or few Canadian manufacturers of boats over $250,000 does not mean it’s okay not to sell them. Every time a new boat over $250,000 sells it creates a huge economic impact to the local economy that sold it.

I was super impressed by the size of the Vancouver boat show (pre pandemic). I think every vendor paying his money to show off his trade at BC place will be the ones hurt.  All those skilled tradesmen that do everything, like install and service things like water makers, solar installation, generator repair, align propeller shafts, polish, varnish, engine service, install electronics, window coverings, fabricate fly bridge enclosures, install thrusters, paint bottoms, paint topsides, install outboards, service hard bottom inflatables, fabricate stainless, install graphics, service davits, sell fenders, dock lines, service windlasses and a million other trades that I can’t think of now, are the ones with less work. Much less work. 

I saw that happen in San Diego in the late 80s and early 90s. I’d really hate to see it in Vancouver. 

Anyway, thanks for replying. 
 

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Also, that Fleming 65 at Grand Yachts is now "Sale Pending". 

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1 hour ago, no shoes said:

Also, that Fleming 65 at Grand Yachts is now "Sale Pending". 

There's a row of 10 of them at our marina, all registered in the USA. The only time they have moved in the last year is for varnish work and haulout.

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7 hours ago, no shoes said:

I was super impressed by the size of the Vancouver boat show (pre pandemic). I think every vendor paying his money to show off his trade at BC place will be the ones hurt.  All those skilled tradesmen that do everything, like install and service things like water makers, solar installation, generator repair, align propeller shafts, polish, varnish, engine service, install electronics, window coverings, fabricate fly bridge enclosures, install thrusters, paint bottoms, paint topsides, install outboards, service hard bottom inflatables, fabricate stainless, install graphics, service davits, sell fenders, dock lines, service windlasses and a million other trades that I can’t think of now, are the ones with less work. Much less work. 

I saw that happen in San Diego in the late 80s and early 90s. I’d really hate to see it in Vancouver. 

Anyway, thanks for replying. 
 

And now in San Diego there's a waiting list almost two months out to get work done.

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5 hours ago, Ishmael said:

There's a row of 10 of them at our marina, all registered in the USA. The only time they have moved in the last year is for varnish work and haulout.

I imagine that’s because of the border being closed. 

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35 minutes ago, no shoes said:

I imagine that’s because of the border being closed. 

Absolutely. It's interesting to speculate how much they are paying to have a dormant boat.

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46 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Absolutely. It's interesting to speculate how much they are paying to have a dormant boat.

You are talking about owners of Fleming 65s, right? Only their accountants know, or care.

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Our drama coach Prime Minister trying to get some votes out of us great unwashed and a completely stupid tax which will provide no net taxes to his government.

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16 hours ago, kinardly said:

You are talking about owners of Fleming 65s, right? Only their accountants know, or care.

There are some 72's here as well, one owned by the owner of Fleming.

Going by the marina's web site, the 65's are paying almost $14,000 a year and the 72's $16,000 for moorage alone. Just a drop in the bucket if you can afford the boat. 

 

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7 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

There are some 72's here as well, one owned by the owner of Fleming.

Going by the marina's web site, the 65's are paying almost $14,000 a year and the 72's $16,000 for moorage alone. Just a drop in the bucket if you can afford the boat. 

 

They might start noticing if the CDN peso keeps appreciating. It's like $0.81 today? Up from high sixites?

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An NDP MP by the name of Don Davies was on the radio this morning and came out and said it; the luxury taxes were a budget influence from the NDP as a tall poppy statement.  Canada is in a minority government at the moment.

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1 hour ago, Laker said:

An NDP MP by the name of Don Davies was on the radio this morning and came out and said it; the luxury taxes were a budget influence from the NDP as a tall poppy statement.  Canada is in a minority government at the moment.

Any chance of a link? Google and  CBC couldn't find it.

(a bit surprised: figured the NDP might be reluctant to tax the vapers)

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1 hour ago, stief said:

Any chance of a link? Google and  CBC couldn't find it.

(a bit surprised: figured the NDP might be reluctant to tax the vapers)

Vancouver morning show.  Interview with Don Davies.

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On 4/30/2021 at 8:54 PM, Commercial Boater said:

There's a really common response to tax proposals like this one which goes, "why should I have to pay more for being successful/meritorious/shrewd?" You can see this exact sentiment in many different forms throughout this thread (not naming names), and expressed broadly in American politics. The idea being that if we live in a meritocracy, then success implies merit, so taxing success is the same as penalizing merit. But it's actually fairly simple to show how a "meritocracy" isn't a stable or consistent system beyond the first generation.

 

In Generation 1, two couples are working in a meritocratic system. One couple performs better and is more meritorious than the other couple. The successful couple does well for themselves, and the unsuccessful couple does not. So far so good--this is classic meritocracy with a light dusting of social darwinism on top.

 

But in Generation 2, things get fucked. The successful couple from Gen 1 is able to spend more time with their children and can afford buying them books and stimulating toys, sending their kids to Pre-K, tutoring, and college prep, and college entrance exams and application fees. The unsuccessful couple struggles to afford the time or money for some or all of these. Furthermore, having poorer parents leads to a number of additional problems (such as in nutrition or literacy) and is generally a barrier to the success of children. This cycle propagates itself for every subsequent generation: the children of unsuccessful parents are much less likely to succeed, and when they become parents they pass this curse on in turn.

 

This is the end of true meritocracy in just 2 generations. The children of poor parents are "punished for the sins of their father", as it were. People born to wealthy, college-educated parents automatically have a leg up over people who didn't have that support growing up. And if your first thought on hearing this is "well, I didn't have that growing up and I still succeeded!", then not only were you lucky to beat the odds against you, but consider how much more successful you might have been if you did grow up with those advantages.

 

I'm not saying that one tax on yachts will fix this problem. Nor am I saying that it's wrong for parents to try to give their children as many advantages as possible (so long as you don't pull a Lori Loughlin). But it is clear that we do not live in an actual meritocracy so long as children's success is defined, or even merely impacted, by their parent's success. Here's a great article by economist Dr. Robert Frank on this very subject and, in particular, why people tend to overestimate their own role in their success: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/05/why-luck-matters-more-than-you-might-think/476394/

 

tl;dr Meritocracy doesn't logically work because subsequent generations are buoyed or burdened by the success or failure of their parents, thereby eroding or erasing entirely the role of personal merit in one's own success.

This is anecdotal so i will respond with one of my own.  The successful couple from Generation 1 provides their children with every advantage you discussed.  As a result, the children develop into selfish narcissists, indulge too much in drugs and alcohol and drop out of school. One overdoses and dies. The other has to work a minimum wage job and doesn't want to wait for her inheritance. She kills her parents, goes on a spending spree and then commits suicide when caught.  End of meritocracy!  

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2 minutes ago, sail2win said:

This is anecdotal so i will respond with one of my own.  The successful couple from Generation 1 provides their children with every advantage you discussed.  As a result, the children develop into selfish narcissists, indulge too much in drugs and alcohol and drop out of school. One overdoses and dies. The other has to work a minimum wage job and doesn't want to wait for her inheritance. She kills her parents, goes on a spending spree and then commits suicide when caught.  End of meritocracy!  

You know how to take a flying leap!

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22 hours ago, Gong Show said:

They might start noticing if the CDN peso keeps appreciating. It's like $0.81 today? Up from high sixites?

That Fleming 65 in Seattle is a USD $4.25 million dollar boat. He’s probably not going to notice the small increase on his slip rent. He will notice the additional USD $840,000 in luxury tax that this new law will impose. 

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1 hour ago, no shoes said:

That Fleming 65 in Seattle is a USD $4.25 million dollar boat. He’s probably not going to notice the small increase on his slip rent. He will notice the additional USD $840,000 in luxury tax that this new law will impose. 

On a USD 4.25M boat the proposed tax is only 10% or USD 425k.

Keep in mind this is mainly political jockeying in the lead up to a very possible election sometime this year - once the virus is deemed to be under control by the Liberal government.

The Trudeau gang has so far survived 3 confidence votes on the budget but hasn't even introduced a budget implementation bill, which would be another confidence vote matter.

Anyways, this is long from being over and the Liberals are just waiting for the perfect time to pull the plug on parliament - preferably not at their own hands because the party that throws the country into an early election will always alienate some of their normal voters.

https://www.cp24.com/news/no-election-yet-as-liberal-minority-government-survives-third-budget-confidence-vote-1.5403362

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1 hour ago, 12 metre said:

Anyways, this is long from being over and the Liberals are just waiting for the perfect time to pull the plug on parliament - preferably not at their own hands because the party that throws the country into an early election will always alienate some of their normal voters.

Late summer. We'll be mostly vaccinated, people will be happy. etc

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23 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Late summer. We'll be mostly vaccinated, people will be happy. etc

Nyc opens July 1.

Canada vetter get its act together or the world will pass it by.

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Umm, a lot of vaccines that were promised to Canada were from US manufacturers - but then they were not allowed to send them. We also signed contracts with manufacturers with promised dates, but the manufacturers performed faster than expected. So vaccines went to other countries.

It certainly isn't hesitancy on Canadian's parts. It's about 80% "very willing or mostly willing" in Canada vs 65% in the US

 

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26 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Umm, a lot of vaccines that were promised to Canada were from US manufacturers - but then they were not allowed to send them. We also signed contracts with manufacturers with promised dates, but the manufacturers performed faster than expected. So vaccines went to other countries.

It certainly isn't hesitancy on Canadian's parts. It's about 80% "very willing or mostly willing" in Canada vs 65% in the US

 

Thats fucked up. Most of my tourist dollars flow to Canada. Looks like another year No Canada!

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30 minutes ago, Zonker said:

It certainly isn't hesitancy on Canadian's parts. It's about 80% "very willing or mostly willing" in Canada vs 65% in the US

That is because, I believe, in Canada there is little Far Reich media compared to the US. 

80% vs. 65% is a huge difference, and may well mean that the US NEVER gets to herd immunity. 

But the Reich sure does have itself some "Herd Mentality" !! 

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6 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

Thats fucked up. Most of my tourist dollars flow to Canada. Looks like another year No Canada!

I have seen no signs at all that the US-Canada border along the Great Lakes will be open any time soon. 

The Canadians think we are bat shit COVID crazy, and they are correct. 

Thanks Drumphalos !!

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26 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

I have seen no signs at all that the US-Canada border along the Great Lakes will be open any time soon. 

The Canadians think we are bat shit COVID crazy, and they are correct. 

Dude, you sail on Erie... you are crazy irrespective of COVID.

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10 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

That is because, I believe, in Canada there is little Far Reich media compared to the US. 

80% vs. 65% is a huge difference, and may well mean that the US NEVER gets to herd immunity. 

But the Reich sure does have itself some "Herd Mentality" !! 

Oh boy. Still seeing red over a Trump Presidency.

Folks are still seeking and receiving vaccines and to date 148,600,000 have gotten at least one shot (acknowledging some received the J&J) and 107,500,000 have been fully vaccinated. Also you have 32,300,000 have had SARS-CoV-2. The CDC does not readily state of the 32.3 million that have had coronavirus have also been vaccinated..... and it is thought that a great many more had covid and did not know it or get tested to confirm infection. 
So in all likelihood around 130 to 140 million people have antibodies as a low estimate. So to date we are looking at about 40% have immunity and of course those under the age of 18 are not currently eligible and that is a large share of the population.

Making broad claims that only 65% will get vaccinated is a guess at best and disregards those who have already had covid. It disregards the fact that the younger population faces miniscule risk from covid. And it disregards that those most vulnerable, over 65 are 83% vaccinated.

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1 hour ago, fastyacht said:

Nyc opens July 1.

Canada vetter get its act together or the world will pass it by.

Interestingly, NYC is where vaccinations have slowed dramatically. Apparently very blue NYC is of no interest to AJ Wingnut.

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42 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

I have seen no signs at all that the US-Canada border along the Great Lakes will be open any time soon. 

The Canadians think we are bat shit COVID crazy, and they are correct. 

Thanks Drumphalos !!

So a quick look at Health Info Base Canada states that less than 1,000,000 Canadians have been fully vaccinated...... or about 2.5% of population fully vaccinated.

Are you sure you want to hold up Canada as the model of what the US should be doing??

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1 hour ago, AJ Oliver said:

I have seen no signs at all that the US-Canada border along the Great Lakes will be open any time soon. 

The Canadians think we are bat shit COVID crazy, and they are correct. 

Thanks Drumphalos !!

Looking like maybe in the fall...depending on how it all shakes down.

Quote

The border has been closed to non-essential travel like tourism and recreation since March 2020, and the closure agreement between Ottawa and Washington is expected to be renewed on May 21

 

The agreement makes exceptions, for example, on compassionate grounds like attending a funeral, or to apply for refugee status, and enforcement has been less than absolute.

But the question on most people's minds, says foreign policy expert Aaron Ettinger, is probably "When can I do my day trips over the border once again?

"And my answer to that is, that it's going to be a long, long time." 

Ettinger, an associate professor at Carleton University who specializes in Canadian and U.S. foreign policy, says he believes the borders will remain largely shut for at least a few more months.

"My gut tells me it's going to be [closed] at least well into the fall of 2021," he said, "because things are literally ten times worse now than they were this time last year with infection rates, with ICU admissions."

He says once both countries sort out the public health concerns, they will have to work through the politics.

"Politically, the United States and Canada would have to get on the same page … and that would take an enormous amount of diplomatic cross-border interaction," he said. 

Given how complicated their relationship is already, Ettinger says he believes the border situation won't be resolved quickly. He noted that the U.S. has vaccinated a far greater percentage of its residents than Canada.

"The U.S. may not be all that keen on letting Canadian travellers over the border ... But I would imagine that any Canadian government would want the same treatment that Canada affords American travellers." 

{snip}

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/when-canada-us-border-reopen-1.6007645

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2 hours ago, fastyacht said:

Nyc opens July 1.

Canada vetter get its act together or the world will pass it by.

We are catching up quickly - currently at 35% with at least one dose of vaccine vs. 44% in the US.  No offense, but I'm looking forward to cruising Desolation Sound this summer with a fewimage.thumb.png.9c03aaaf3ef8dc9fb268843d4ec358d8.png  less boats around.  Next year we will welcome you back.  

 

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Our very Liberal prime minister Justin Trudeau is really quite a dope.  Prior to politics his work experience included white water rafting instructor, ski instructor and elementary school teacher. He is hard pressed to explain the difference between a trade surplus and a trade deficit.  He admired Castro and his "basic dictatorship" along with some level of admiration for communist China.  He was quite upset over Castro's death.  Some of his more stellar moments include firing his female indigenous Minister of Justice when she wouldn't agree to his plan to pass on prosecuting a Quebec construction company found to be bribing foreign governments. Oh, the construction company was located  in Quebec, his home province and his own riding.

This luxury tax(es) are a meager offering to our far left NDP to gain their support for Trudeau's budget. Without that support an election could be triggered. The NDP believe that large corporations, like auto companies, communication companies, steel manufacturers should pay high taxes cause they make a profit. Bloodsuckers.....all of 'em !! Higher taxes would send them to more friendly jurisdictions.

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22 minutes ago, commotion said:

Our very Liberal prime minister Justin Trudeau is really quite a dope.  Prior to politics his work experience included white water rafting instructor, ski instructor and elementary school teacher. He is hard pressed to explain the difference between a trade surplus and a trade deficit.  He admired Castro and his "basic dictatorship" along with some level of admiration for communist China.  He was quite upset over Castro's death.  Some of his more stellar moments include firing his female indigenous Minister of Justice when she wouldn't agree to his plan to pass on prosecuting a Quebec construction company found to be bribing foreign governments. Oh, the construction company was located  in Quebec, his home province and his own riding.

This luxury tax(es) are a meager offering to our far left NDP to gain their support for Trudeau's budget. Without that support an election could be triggered. The NDP believe that large corporations, like auto companies, communication companies, steel manufacturers should pay high taxes cause they make a profit. Bloodsuckers.....all of 'em !! Higher taxes would send them to more friendly jurisdictions.

Research has shown that it doesn't quite work out that way with Higher Taxes.  The approach of Northern Europe would counter your thesis.

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1 hour ago, commotion said:

Higher taxes would send them to more friendly jurisdictions.

No fan of Trudeau here, but this statement is conservative ideological bullshit.  It is in the same category as the "trickle down" idea that if corporate taxes are lower the corporations will use the money to create more jobs or pay people more.

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52 minutes ago, Laker said:

Research has shown that it doesn't quite work out that way with Higher Taxes.  The approach of Northern Europe would counter your thesis.

While personal income tax is significantly higher than the U.S., and also higher than in Canada, corporate income tax in Finland/Sweden/Norway is actually lower than the U.S., as far as I recall. This is to stem the flow of capital and private business to lower tax jurisdictions(putting aside for the moment the problem of lower wage jurisdictions).

What's interesting, is when and at what amount the top personal income tax bracket is actually triggered in these N European countries vs. Canada and the U.S.

As I recall, in the mentioned N European countries, the top tax bracket kicks in at an average of around 1.5 times the national average income, in Canada its 3X, and in the U.S. its 9X. 

 

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10 hours ago, 12 metre said:

On a USD 4.25M boat the proposed tax is only 10% or USD 425k.

Keep in mind this is mainly political jockeying in the lead up to a very possible election sometime this year - once the virus is deemed to be under control by the Liberal government.

The Trudeau gang has so far survived 3 confidence votes on the budget but hasn't even introduced a budget implementation bill, which would be another confidence vote matter.

Anyways, this is long from being over and the Liberals are just waiting for the perfect time to pull the plug on parliament - preferably not at their own hands because the party that throws the country into an early election will always alienate some of their normal voters.

https://www.cp24.com/news/no-election-yet-as-liberal-minority-government-survives-third-budget-confidence-vote-1.5403362

Right $425,000, my bad. I bet he’s still not stoked on top of PST and GST and the import duty built into the MSRP. 

Thanks for the landscape on the politics. 

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8 hours ago, quod umbra said:

Oh boy. Still seeing red over a Trump Presidency.

And I do not subscribe to the Big Lie either  . .  

not to mention the 30,000 somewhat lesser lies. 

Why do you believe that insanity ?? 

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8 hours ago, LionessRacing said:

Dude, you sail on Erie... you are crazy irrespective of COVID.

Even in my semi-dotage I sailed 50 days last year. 

How about you ?? 

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9 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

That is because, I believe, in Canada there is little Far Reich media compared to the US. 

We have discussed this assertion in the past here on PA. 

I stand by it. 

If our Canadian friends had the same kind of Big $ Far Reich media as the US . . 

they would be just as crazy as we are. 

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3 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

We have discussed this assertion in the past here on PA. 

I stand by it. 

If our Canadian friends had the same kind of Big $ Far Reich media as the US . . 

they would be just as crazy as we are. 

Rubbish. You're ignoring the effects of your dysfunctional electoral system.

We've had to deal with Murdoch for far longer than you have but he doesn't have much traction, because gerrymandering is nigh on impossible and suppressing voters *is* impossible.

And EVERYONE votes. That dilutes the raving loonies to irrelevance. You guys encourage them.

FKT

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8 hours ago, fufkin said:

While personal income tax is significantly higher than the U.S., and also higher than in Canada, corporate income tax in Finland/Sweden/Norway is actually lower than the U.S., as far as I recall. This is to stem the flow of capital and private business to lower tax jurisdictions(putting aside for the moment the problem of lower wage jurisdictions).

What's interesting, is when and at what amount the top personal income tax bracket is actually triggered in these N European countries vs. Canada and the U.S.

As I recall, in the mentioned N European countries, the top tax bracket kicks in at an average of around 1.5 times the national average income, in Canada its 3X, and in the U.S. its 9X. 

I just today happened to this article: https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2014/09/22/the-u-s-ranks-32nd-out-of-34-oecd-countries-in-tax-code-competitiveness/?sh=5c6e35f537e4

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10 hours ago, Rain Man said:

No fan of Trudeau here, but this statement is conservative ideological bullshit.  It is in the same category as the "trickle down" idea that if corporate taxes are lower the corporations will use the money to create more jobs or pay people more.

Taxes are a cost to corporations just like electricity or property costs. Corporations are simply a lower liability and tax cost place to conduct business prior to distributing the profits to the shareholders who will then pay taxes on their share. 

If the corporations need to expand or pay raises to their people, they will have an easier or harder time depending on the tax regime they exist in. By and large the revenue they get is set by the market prices which is generally set by the lowest cost competitor. 

Finally, in my opinion, the most significant drag on investment in the corporation and its people is the pay and bonus systems for senior management which rewards share price and dividends over other more holistic metrics. These incentives are driven by your pension fund in large part. 

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6 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Rubbish. You're ignoring the effects of your dysfunctional electoral system.

We've had to deal with Murdoch for far longer than you have but he doesn't have much traction, because gerrymandering is nigh on impossible and suppressing voters *is* impossible.

And EVERYONE votes. That dilutes the raving loonies to irrelevance. You guys encourage them.

FKT

You are partly, but not entirely, correct. 

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16 hours ago, commotion said:

Our very Liberal prime minister Justin Trudeau is really quite a dope.  Prior to politics his work experience included white water rafting instructor, ski instructor and elementary school teacher. He is hard pressed to explain the difference between a trade surplus and a trade deficit.  He admired Castro and his "basic dictatorship" along with some level of admiration for communist China.  He was quite upset over Castro's death.  Some of his more stellar moments include firing his female indigenous Minister of Justice when she wouldn't agree to his plan to pass on prosecuting a Quebec construction company found to be bribing foreign governments. Oh, the construction company was located  in Quebec, his home province and his own riding.

This luxury tax(es) are a meager offering to our far left NDP to gain their support for Trudeau's budget. Without that support an election could be triggered. The NDP believe that large corporations, like auto companies, communication companies, steel manufacturers should pay high taxes cause they make a profit. Bloodsuckers.....all of 'em !! Higher taxes would send them to more friendly jurisdictions.

I agree with everything you said except the last bit.

Corporations don't (or seldom) move because of taxes, they move to get serf levels of employee pay and freedom from those pesky environmental regs.

Trudeau the Lesser is a classic lesser of evils situation - look at the alternatives.

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10 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

I agree with everything you said except the last bit.

Corporations don't (or seldom) move because of taxes, they move to get serf levels of employee pay and freedom from those pesky environmental regs.

Trudeau the Lesser is a classic lesser of evils situation - look at the alternatives.

Corporations spend considerable effort tuning their business model to avoid taxes.   In most cases, raising corporate taxes simply results in more effort put into avoiding them.

I remember in my engineering days being asked by senior management to justify how XX portion of my job was spent on R&D.  Everything I did was D, so it wasn't hard.

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On 5/5/2021 at 7:21 PM, Laker said:

Research has shown that it doesn't quite work out that way with Higher Taxes.  The approach of Northern Europe would counter your thesis.

In northern Europe citizens can see that their governments are making good use of their taxes and therefore support their gov'ts. Trudeau's government wastes our tax revenue at an alarming rate.  Paying Covid benefits to anyone who had a $5,000 income in prior year. This led to many high school students bombing around Lake St. Clair on their brand new jet skis paid by government benefits. This does convince me of prudent use of my tax dollars. Have a look at this !!

130682545_10159220464293910_9147118757032749212_o.jpg

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There are many factors not taken into account with this data.  One is where the money is going.  Certainly not into jet skis.  More like savings accounts.  What is paying for the increase in the housing market?  The money did not appear from nowhere.  Liquidation of non-governmental assets is another source.  Government financial policy in Canada in reality does not seem to be as political as in other areas of the globe.  If you wish to get angry, get angry at the deputy minister, whose name I am sure you do not know.  (Michael Sabia).  

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1 hour ago, commotion said:

This led to many high school students bombing around Lake St. Clair on their brand new jet skis paid by government benefits. This does convince me of prudent use of my tax dollars. Have a look at this !!

Great. The opposite of trickle down economics. The money has to pass through the 'common' people before ending up in the out of country shareholders. 

Seems like a much more 'Canadian' plan that simply wiring a cheque (or tax credit)  to the shareholders. More people get to play with the money, and the corporate interests have to look to the people (not their lobbyists) to improve the bottom line.

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2 hours ago, commotion said:

 Paying Covid benefits to anyone who had a $5,000 income in prior year. This led to many high school students bombing around Lake St. Clair on their brand new jet skis paid by government benefits.

I just filed my son's taxes - he got CERB - and I can assure you that taxes were paid on those amounts.  He was unemployed during the first part of the pandemic, and it meant survival to him.   Moving back in with his parents would have been a fate worse than death.  

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On 5/7/2021 at 6:56 PM, commotion said:

Have a look at this !!

130682545_10159220464293910_9147118757032749212_o.jpg

This chart is almost devoid of any meaning.

The debt as a percentage of GDP possibly useful, but % change in debt. This could simply be a reduction in reported GDP, or it could be a reflection of low initial debt as a proportion of GDP. Without data on what the actual debt at beginning and end of the reporting period, this chart is of no value whatever, and tells you pretty much nothing.

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But it's pretty and it confuses a lot of people which makes the people using it in presentations seem smart and knowledgeable.

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