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Seriously Considering an Ultimate 20 in Bay Area


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I am thinking an Ultimate 20 might be the right boat for me now. Need to confirm it can be ramp launched without too many shenanigans with 2012 VW Touareg and there are some around which might be for sale. Looks like it would retain resale value pretty well and it would definitely be fun sailing that boat in Santa Cruz. Only weakness of the U20 I have experienced is upwind in chop can be annoying.

I need a boat I can store at home and ramp launch, would prefer at least a swing keel etc instead of a dingy for stability. Someone needs to design a swing bulb keel Soling :)

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37 minutes ago, Geff said:

Get a Weta instead.  AWESOME boat that checks off all the items you are looking for.

Wow, what a cool boat! Don't even need a ramp, two people can just carry the main hull down to the dock and throw it in.

Looks like a wet ass boat though. Pun intended.

https://www.wetamarine.com/the-boat/

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2 hours ago, Chris in Santa Cruz, CA said:

I am thinking an Ultimate 20 might be the right boat for me now. Need to confirm it can be ramp launched without too many shenanigans with 2012 VW Touareg and there are some around which might be for sale. Looks like it would retain resale value pretty well and it would definitely be fun sailing that boat in Santa Cruz. Only weakness of the U20 I have experienced is upwind in chop can be annoying.

I need a boat I can store at home and ramp launch, would prefer at least a swing keel etc instead of a dingy for stability. Someone needs to design a swing bulb keel Soling :)

We had U 20 at our lake....easy ramp launch....we raced 3 up.....nice boat

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If you're sailing in SF Bay, you're better off with the U20 predecessor - the Hotfoot 20.  Basically the same if not identical hull - but without the turbo rig and penalty.

In NorCal, the HF20 rates 33 secs higher than the U20 (174 vs 141).  I doubt you could actually utilize the extra SA of the U20 in SF Bay, so you have a 33 sec gift on most days in the bay.

There have been prior debates on whether the hulls are identical, all I know is that the HF20 molds were sold to someone in California in the late 80's or thereabouts.  Some have said some changes were made to the mold in the bow and/or stern - IDK.  But aesthetically and numberswise the boats are pretty much indistinguishable.

I remember watching a Winter RTB race off Cattle point in 25+ knts and Mike Burner had Hotspur around the weather mark first (and they were slow boat in their div) then rounded the leeward mark before the next boat even got their kite up.  That was the closest I've seen to a keelboat being fully airborne for an entire leg.

On the downside they are a bit sticky in the light stuff - but in SF Bay, who cares...and they do have the known ability to turtle.

Anyways, there is one listed for sale in LV at under $5k, which is less than you would typically see in Canada: https://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/90378

 

 

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I dunno,  the Hotfoot 20 has a cast iron keel - the whole thing,  from the little bulblet to the top,  not terribly efficient use of the weight imo.   There's one out here,  I've sailed in a fair bit - it's alright but not great. 

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36 minutes ago, 12 metre said:

If you're sailing in SF Bay, you're better off with the U20 predecessor - the Hotfoot 20.  Basically the same if not identical hull - but without the turbo rig and penalty.

In NorCal, the HF20 rates 33 secs higher than the U20 (174 vs 141).  I doubt you could actually utilize the extra SA of the U20 in SF Bay, so you have a 33 sec gift on most days in the bay.

There have been prior debates on whether the hulls are identical, all I know is that the HF20 molds were sold to someone in California in the late 80's or thereabouts.  Some have said some changes were made to the mold in the bow and/or stern - IDK.  But aesthetically and numberswise the boats are pretty much indistinguishable.

I remember watching a Winter RTB race off Cattle point in 25+ knts and Mike Burner had Hotspur around the weather mark first (and they were slow boat in their div) then rounded the leeward mark before the next boat even got their kite up.  That was the closest I've seen to a keelboat being fully airborne for an entire leg.

On the downside they are a bit sticky in the light stuff - but in SF Bay, who cares...and they do have the known ability to turtle.

Anyways, there is one listed for sale in LV at under $5k, which is less than you would typically see in Canada: https://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/90378

 

 

I think Jim Antrim would be offended!

http://antrimdesign.com/ultimate-20.html

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25 minutes ago, Hitchhiker said:

I think Jim Antrim would be offended!

http://antrimdesign.com/ultimate-20.html

Not sure why.  Read this article on the Ultimate 20: https://www.practical-sailor.com/sailboat-reviews/ultimate-20

It basically says exactly what I posted.  The owner of Ultimate Boats met Doug Hemphill (designer of the Hotfoot 20) back in 1986 and in 1988 purchased the molds of the HF20 and put them in storage.

He later hired Jim Antrim to rework the design.  The retractable bowsprit was added, the rig and main enlarged and pulled aft, and the keel/bulb reworked.

But hullwise, the only real changes are it was stretched 9" (presumably at the stern as the rig was moved aft) and freeboard increased a couple of inches which also increased beam a bit.  but that seems to be about it.    The article says "without radical changes to the hull"

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Doing the Antrim mods - she would so much fun. Towing and launching behind your Tourareg simple. I have seen raising the mast and rigging done in less than 30 mins by a single regular guy. The upgrades and new sails wouldn't kill your pocketbook either. As for being a bit tender - if the winds pipe up, you can always reef. They fly in the estuary here. It would be fun to own a Santa Cruz boat for Santa Cruz, Monterey and making Bay sailing/races. The cabin as a camper works too.

 

Screen Shot 2021-04-21 at 12.42.23 PM.png

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Looks like a solid platform. We have a number of U20's here in Charlotte, NC - going to race with them in a few minutes. Today looks to be an 'industry day' if the forecast holds. Last week wind was in the 20's and they did just fine 2 up. I do not think the OD main has a reef but, I am sure it can be done.

 

 

Sail Safe!

 

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22 minutes ago, Black Jack said:

Doing the Antrim mods - she would so much fun. Towing and launching behind your Tourareg simple. I have seen raising the mast and rigging done in less than 30 mins by a single regular guy. The upgrades and new sails wouldn't kill your pocketbook either. As for being a bit tender - if the winds pipe up, you can always reef. They fly in the estuary here. It would be fun to own a Santa Cruz boat for Santa Cruz, Monterey and making Bay sailing/races. The cabin as a camper works too.

 

Screen Shot 2021-04-21 at 12.42.23 PM.png

Boy I bet the estuary on a windy day would be a hoot with the U20. Thanks for the info.

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Hotfoot 20 pics...

Bulb is a bit prehistoric - but this was 1985.  The very early days of bulbs and this ones not that bad looking for its day.  U20 has 50 lb more ballast (450 vs 400).  Rudder on the U20 definitely an improvement.  But a rudder upgrade for the HF20 is available from the company formerly known as Phil's Foils: http://cci.one/site/marine/foils-a-z/hotfoot/?doing_wp_cron=1619036558.6043210029602050781250

HF20.jpg

HF20-2.jpg

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Any 20' is going to be pain in SF bay.  Better sailing boat is J22 for those conditions, but PITA without a hoist.  The Hotfoot for $4500 looks tempting.  Will need new sails, but what 30yo boat dont?

 

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5 minutes ago, Senator Seditious Maximus said:

Any 20' is going to be pain in SF bay.  Better sailing boat is J22 for those conditions, but PITA without a hoist.  The Hotfoot for $4500 looks tempting.  Will need new sails, but what 30yo boat dont?

 

Santa Cruz and Santa Barbara and lakes is what I would use it for. Tahoe in summer as a friend has a mooring in Tahoma.

I agree about SF Bay and my min size boat there would be the Express 37 unless it was a Knarr or an Etchells :)

The slot makes small light boats pain machines. Too old for that shit now.

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1 hour ago, Pointy End said:

Is Jeff C. still in Santa Cruz?

U20 - 38.jpg

I saw Jeff a few years ago at the dry slip area by the SCYC and we chatted about my SC27 etc. I did some forensic accounting for him in regards to the Ultimate Sailboats business history in the mid 2000's.  He looked great as usual in a crisp white oxford etc :). He really had his heart in this boat and the business. Doesnt always work out with that alone in the boat business.

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There is 

24 minutes ago, Senator Seditious Maximus said:

Any 20' is going to be pain in SF bay.  Better sailing boat is J22 for those conditions, but PITA without a hoist.  The Hotfoot for $4500 looks tempting.  Will need new sails, but what 30yo boat dont?

 

There is another solution - one could keep the U20 in the water for under 200 a month in Alameda. The trailer would give you the option to haul it out and clean the bottom almost giving you access like the hoist. Placing the boat in the water for weeks at a time would make this practice easy and less time consuming. You can end the monthy contract as you see fit and adjust to your life pursuits. You could come and go as you wanted chasing the summer, making and taking it to Tahoe or San Deigo.

As a reminder - you do not have to sail the slot blowing like snot to find sailing happiness in the bay.  

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12 minutes ago, Black Jack said:

There is another solution - one could keep the U20 in the water for under 200 a month in Alameda. The trailer would give you the option to haul it out and clean the bottom almost giving you access like the hoist. Placing the boat in the water for weeks at a time would make this practice easy and less time consuming.  You could come and go as you wanted chasing the summer, making and taking it to Tahoe or San Deigo.

As a reminder - you do not have to sail the slot blowing like snot to find sailing happiness in the bay.  

There is a U20 One Design fleet around Point Richmond. They seem happy with their boats, and are well shielded from the slot by Angel Island.

 

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copy the reminders about there being flat water in the bay even on windy days :) Thanks guys.

I have always liked the Oakland/Alameda zone. Pt Richmond is a nice jump off location. You can sneak up Racoon Straights and then just reach off at Sausalito take a ride back towards Richmond. Nice lap.

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7 hours ago, 12 metre said:

If you're sailing in SF Bay, you're better off with the U20 predecessor - the Hotfoot 20.  Basically the same if not identical hull - but without the turbo rig and penalty.

In NorCal, the HF20 rates 33 secs higher than the U20 (174 vs 141).  I doubt you could actually utilize the extra SA of the U20 in SF Bay, so you have a 33 sec gift on most days in the bay.

There have been prior debates on whether the hulls are identical, all I know is that the HF20 molds were sold to someone in California in the late 80's or thereabouts.  Some have said some changes were made to the mold in the bow and/or stern - IDK.  But aesthetically and numberswise the boats are pretty much indistinguishable.

I remember watching a Winter RTB race off Cattle point in 25+ knts and Mike Burner had Hotspur around the weather mark first (and they were slow boat in their div) then rounded the leeward mark before the next boat even got their kite up.  That was the closest I've seen to a keelboat being fully airborne for an entire leg.

On the downside they are a bit sticky in the light stuff - but in SF Bay, who cares...and they do have the known ability to turtle.

Anyways, there is one listed for sale in LV at under $5k, which is less than you would typically see in Canada: https://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/90378

 

 

Was this the same race where he ended upside down and the boat was towed back to the dock fully inverted?

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31 minutes ago, Laker said:

Was this the same race where he ended upside down and the boat was towed back to the dock fully inverted?

Nope.  Although a J/24 turtled and sank off Mary Tod Island a few weeks earlier IIRC.  Amusing story about the J sinking. 

Yes crew was fine and imbibing at RVic a couple of hours later waiting as the J was towed into the YC - amazing set of coincidences involved in that.

I wasn't aware Hotspur had turtled, but like I mentioned earlier they are apparently prone to that.  It must have happened after I moved from Vic.

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9 minutes ago, 12 metre said:

Nope.  They won that one quite handily.  Mike was on a roll that year,  IIRC he had something like 22 consecutive bullets between Wed Night and winter series - but he had some very good sailors onboard.

 Although a J/24 turtled and sank off Mary Tod Island a few weeks earlier IIRC.  Amusing story about the J sinking. 

Yes crew was fine and imbibing at RVic a couple of hours later waiting as the J was towed into the YC - amazing set of coincidences involved in that.

I wasn't aware Hotspur had turtled, but like I mentioned earlier they are apparently prone to that.  It must have happened after I moved from Vic.

 

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9 hours ago, 12 metre said:

If you're sailing in SF Bay, you're better off with the U20 predecessor - the Hotfoot 20.  Basically the same if not identical hull - but without the turbo rig and penalty.

In NorCal, the HF20 rates 33 secs higher than the U20 (174 vs 141).  I doubt you could actually utilize the extra SA of the U20 in SF Bay, so you have a 33 sec gift on most days in the bay.

There have been prior debates on whether the hulls are identical, all I know is that the HF20 molds were sold to someone in California in the late 80's or thereabouts.  Some have said some changes were made to the mold in the bow and/or stern - IDK.  But aesthetically and numberswise the boats are pretty much indistinguishable.

I remember watching a Winter RTB race off Cattle point in 25+ knts and Mike Burner had Hotspur around the weather mark first (and they were slow boat in their div) then rounded the leeward mark before the next boat even got their kite up.  That was the closest I've seen to a keelboat being fully airborne for an entire leg.

On the downside they are a bit sticky in the light stuff - but in SF Bay, who cares...and they do have the known ability to turtle.

Anyways, there is one listed for sale in LV at under $5k, which is less than you would typically see in Canada: https://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/90378

 

 

4800 USD is interesting for the boat in Vegas. Sent a message. Thanks!

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7 hours ago, Black Jack said:

Doing the Antrim mods - she would so much fun. Towing and launching behind your Tourareg simple. I have seen raising the mast and rigging done in less than 30 mins by a single regular guy. The upgrades and new sails wouldn't kill your pocketbook either. As for being a bit tender - if the winds pipe up, you can always reef. They fly in the estuary here. It would be fun to own a Santa Cruz boat for Santa Cruz, Monterey and making Bay sailing/races. The cabin as a camper works too.

 

Screen Shot 2021-04-21 at 12.42.23 PM.png

The boat is so light it stops upwind when it loses the wave lottery or it at least it feels like it stops :)

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Hey Chris, If you want a ride on a U20 on the bay with the whole launching show send me a DM. I dry sail my boat out of a storage yard 20 miles from the bay and take it out for the day. Tons of fun and a great fleet on the bay for racing.

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10 hours ago, junta said:

Hey Chris, If you want a ride on a U20 on the bay with the whole launching show send me a DM. I dry sail my boat out of a storage yard 20 miles from the bay and take it out for the day. Tons of fun and a great fleet on the bay for racing.

Thanks very much, J.

I am going to run down the lead on the Hotfoot 20 in Vegas for now as its more in line with what I am looking for from $ and serious racing perspective. I would feel guilty not racing the U20 and I just don't know how much of that I would do yet.

I assume I could do the Delta Ditch Run and the Hood River race with the Hotfoot. Worst case I could put a float at the top of the mast :)

Am I right?

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2 hours ago, Chris in Santa Cruz, CA said:

Thanks very much, J.

I am going to run down the lead on the Hotfoot 20 in Vegas for now as its more in line with what I am looking for from $ and serious racing perspective. I would feel guilty not racing the U20 and I just don't know how much of that I would do yet.

I assume I could do the Delta Ditch Run and the Hood River race with the Hotfoot. Worst case I could put a float at the top of the mast :)

Am I right?

Yes you can do both of them and invite me to crew as reward for my most excellent recommendation.  BTW I've done the Hood Rio several times (Melges 24, Rocket 22).  The Delta is one I'm lacking in my bucket list.  Help me scratch that itch.

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2 hours ago, Chris in Santa Cruz, CA said:

I am first in line for the Hotfoot 20 in Vegas, going down a week from tomorrow to test sail and likely buy it. Taking the 22 y/o son. Road Trip!

IF you buy the HotFoot, and IF it needs a mainsail,  and you want one  - a really nice fathead in dacron with long battens and a reef,  let me know.  I have a new North Sails main I had made with a bit more roach than I want for my boat (Impulse 21 with custom rig) and so rather than re-cutting it had another one made.   (I took the flicker off and haven't re-installed it).

This sail got used twice, and had been rolled up and stored ashore since - and I know it fits because we put my prototype fathead on the Hotfoot here and it works a treat.

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47 minutes ago, Great Red Shark said:

IF you buy the HotFoot, and IF it needs a mainsail,  and you want one  - a really nice fathead in dacron with long battens and a reef,  let me know.  I have a new North Sails main I had made with a bit more roach than I want for my boat (Impulse 21 with custom rig) and so rather than re-cutting it had another one made.   (I took the flicker off and haven't re-installed it).

This sail got used twice, and had been rolled up and stored ashore since - and I know it fits because we put my prototype fathead on the Hotfoot here and it works a treat.

Copy that! I like dacron mains. This boat likely has beater old dacron sails but it looks like it has fairly new composite sails.

Will probably put new wires on it. I will likely check back with you when I get the thing home and start checking it out. Thanks!

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