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Car Care, Wax vs, Ceramics??


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The '17 430i hardtop Convertible coupe, we just acquired was never garaged by the previous owner.  I can tell, because with only 13,500 miles the wiper blades were shot from baking in the sun and there were a half dozen or more dings in the boot, bonnet and roof. Dealer had Dent Wizard remove all the dings and dents.   It's garaged now, and I want to get some paint protection.   Young man at work, does detailing on the side, and been to lots of classes.  Claims he only uses an Armor All Ceramic coating product, that's the only one guaranteed for life, that costs a grand for a bottle, but it goes a long way, and will do my car for 200 bucks.  I saw his older Subaru, that he spent 4 hours doing last night and it looked good.  But, I could find no evidence of this product searching the interwebs??  I bought a bottle of "Last Coat" ceramic coating, which one review recommended over the others, but with my effed up shoulders, I am not up to the task myself, so will probably hire someone.  

Then, I talked with a local detail guy who does lots of other car work, and I have known for many years, and trust his opinions and knowledge about these things.  He has done excellent work on many of my cars over the years.  He installed electric windows and cruise control in my old pickup.   He said the "Ceramic" coating craze, is just a marketing scam to pilfer our wallets, and every car finish product you see now, has the word "ceramic" in it.  He claims that a good wax job once a year, and keeping it garaged when not in use, is the smarter, better way go. 

So is Ceramic coating really better than a good Caranuba wax job, or is it a bunch of Snake Oil???

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Never even heard of it.

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1 minute ago, Mrleft8 said:

Never even heard of it.

 

Never heard of car wax?  I guess you just drive them and then park them........  NTTAWWT....

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Miracle products of every kind are all bullshit. I imagine car dealers are pushing that ceramic shit hard on new car sales.

If the multi stage paint won't last for life what makes anyone think wiping on some goop will?

Polish or clay the paint and put on a couple of coats of good carnauba - twice a year is better if the car is used a lot.

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3 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Miracle products of every kind are all bullshit. I imagine car dealers are pushing that ceramic shit hard on new car sales.

If the multi stage paint won't last for life what makes anyone think wiping on some goop will?

Polish or clay the paint and put on a couple of coats of good carnauba - twice a year is better if the car is used a lot.

 

Guy from work uses clay bar on a wheel, thought it had to be by hand?  Have not googled that yet...............

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Fellow sailor is hot on trying "ceramic" boat polish for our boats this season. I did some googling last week (checked SA first--no hits)  and am pretty sceptical. This was the only vid I looked at in more detail (groan).

Looked like just as much (if not more) work than our usual wash-wax-buff routine, but at lots more cost.

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We coat some of our metal products with ceramic spray for increased wear resistance.  But that is via plasma spray with high temp/high velocity where the ceramic material bonds to the metal substrate.  I am not sure that ceramic powder added to a liquid paste or some carrier is really going to hold up any better than a wax.  Not sure what would make it stay put.  And since ceramics are very hard, you might want to find out about particle size/quality control, so it doesn't end up actually scratching the paint. 

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47 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

 

Never heard of car wax?  I guess you just drive them and then park them........  NTTAWWT....

Car wax I've heard of. Not ceramic. And just for your information, I have not only not waxed my 2007 Chevy truck which I bought in 2016 since I bought it, I also have not washed it. The green slime and black mold with the raccoon foot prints on the side of the bed make it easy to spot in a parking lot full of sparkling clean white Chevy pickup trucks.;)

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I use the 18.99 a month all you eat car wash pass and they put some kind of repellent on because after two years of garage life the Silverado looks showroom and still beads up water 

The wife’s 2014 did 5 years outside and even after two years of garage life there is no getting that new back as the sun is harsh 

 

73BFEF5E-579F-42CB-AC42-93630E58F334.jpeg

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I was a Mother's carunba wax (no cleaner) for 25 years on all my cars, suvs and motorcycles.

Polish out car, rub it on, let it haze, then remove the haze.

 

I switched to the Meguiars ceramic wax last summer on my Volvos.

https://clean-garage.com/meguiars-hybrid-ceramic-liquid-wax-16oz-advanced-sio2-technology/?sku=G200416

 

Wash your car and rub on like a liquid wax.  You then wipe it off with a mircofibre towel.

- It does not haze so you need to remember where you applied it.

- Easier to buff off reside than traditional wax

- You can put it on plastic or rubber without it leaving residue.

- It is good for at least 6 months.

- If your car is dirty and you drive into a rainstorm, the majority of the dirt washes off.  In a rush you can just hit the car with a hose and get 90 percent of stuff off in 2 minutes.

Good stuff.

 

They also make a spray it on a car and hose off wax product.

https://clean-garage.com/meguiars-hybrid-ceramic-spray-wax-26oz/

That product is snake oil.  Does not work very well and does not last more than 2 months.

 

 

Farm Project did a test on ceramic waxes a couple months ago.

 

Megiars came in the middle of the road, but you can pick it up in any parts store or Walmart.

There are a lot of videos on Youtube, but most is bs from bozo car detailers.

 

Ceramic waxes are not a fad.  They work well.  and contained in wax, you do not have to be careful like you are defusing a nuclear bomb (eg the pure ceramic products) else risk ruining your paint.

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4 minutes ago, Foreverslow said:

Ceramic waxes are not a fad.  They work well.  and contained in wax, you do not have to be careful like you are defusing a nuclear bomb (eg the pure ceramic products) else risk ruining your paint.

Thanks.

Sounds interesting. Thoughts on prepping two or three 30 footers (gelcoat) that we have polished and buffed with 3M's Polish and Cleaner for the last few years?

Might be worth a try if it means we can skips the buffing step in the future.

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1 minute ago, stief said:

Thanks.

Sounds interesting. Thoughts on prepping two or three 30 footers (gelcoat) that we have polished and buffed with 3M's Polish and Cleaner for the last few years?

Might be worth a try if it means we can skips the buffing step in the future.

 

So fereverlslow is saying to wax first, then ceramic coat??  I tried to quote and reply, but could not delete the embedded video.....

 

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16 minutes ago, Foreverslow said:

Wash your car and rub on like a liquid wax.  You then wipe it off with a mircofibre towel.

- It does not haze so you need to remember where you applied it.

- Easier to buff off reside than traditional wax

- You can put it on plastic or rubber without it leaving residue.

- It is good for at least 6 months.

- If your car is dirty and you drive into a rainstorm, the majority of the dirt washes off.  In a rush you can just hit the car with a hose and get 90 percent of stuff off in 2 minutes.

Good stuff.

 

2 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

 

So fereverlslow is saying to wax first, then ceramic coat??  I tried to quote and reply, but could not delete the embedded video.....

 

"Wash your car and rub on like a liquid wax.  You then wipe it off with a mircofibre towel.

- It does not haze so you need to remember where you applied it.

- Easier to buff off reside than traditional wax

- You can put it on plastic or rubber without it leaving residue.

- It is good for at least 6 months.

- If your car is dirty and you drive into a rainstorm, the majority of the dirt washes off.  In a rush you can just hit the car with a hose and get 90 percent of stuff off in 2 minutes.

Good stuff."

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Transcript from the farm vid above: (time link)

Quote
Before applying the products I'll first wash the car with a powerful car wash designed to remove car wax and sealant.
I'll also use a clay bar to remove contaminants such as brake dust from the paint.  I went ahead and washed the car
one more time to remove any traces of clay.
I then used an iron remover to get rid of the contaminants below the surface that the clay bar couldn't reach. The water is not beading up at all so the paint is completely unprotected and ready for each product to be applied.

1. "powerful" car wash. Have to see what will remove the 3M without damaging the gel coat.

2. Clay bar? Never used one. Sounds like work.

3. Iron remover? More googling need to figure out .

So, still sceptical, but might be worth the google time.

Sorry for the gelcoat hijack. Back to the car paint thread.

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3 minutes ago, Al Paca said:

I’m old school. I still go for the “hot wax” special at the local car wash. 

That stuff is water soluble.

Think about it.

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5 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

I think that this product is the one that was all the rage among the sailplane competition types as its 'Nano' technology improves boundary layer and laminar flow on those impossibly long and slender high performance wings.

https://www.glidecoat.com/aviation/

You don't want to make it too slick though

Repaint/Repair Of Gliders

looks like the front fell off..

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5 hours ago, billy backstay said:

 

So fereverlslow is saying to wax first, then ceramic coat??  I tried to quote and reply, but could not delete the embedded video.....

 

the ceramic coat is meant to bond with the surface, so no, don't wax first...   

 

Quote

"powerful" car wash. Have to see what will remove the 3M without damaging the gel coat.

dawn dish detergent...    used to strip waxes off of cars...

 

this guy has a ton of reviews and a spreadsheet..

https://www.youtube.com/c/ScottHD/videos

Quote

Clay bar? Never used one. Sounds like work.

 

actually it isn't ... wash the vehicle well with dawn or some other wax remover..   use the clay lube and run the bar over the paint, you don't need to press hard at all...   don't use the clay if you drop it on the ground as it will pick up contaminants that scratch the paint..   once you do this, the paint will feel super smooth...   afterwards use a good wax or sealant..

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The difference between grand for a bottle and EBay shite is mostly concentration. This guy gets into the detail. In both cases (and in the spectrum in between) you're getting SiO2.

 

 

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It's an interesting discussion what to use, once I've anti fouled, I'll be polishing the hull. I've been researching for some time, as yet no final decision which wax or coating... At least I have less than most to polish, my boat is smaller than some of your tenders. One of this weekends tasks is marking out the waterline for the first time...

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7 hours ago, billy backstay said:

 

So fereverlslow is saying to wax first, then ceramic coat??  I tried to quote and reply, but could not delete the embedded video.....

 

I said rub it on LIKE a like wax, not put on a wax.

You pour a bit from bottle onto an application pad (I use those circular foam pads) and just rub it onto the surface.

Let it haze (even though you cannot see the haze) and the wipe with a clean towel.  Done!

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Slightly off topic, but one of my mechanics says I should not use the touchless drive through car wash in the winter, to get the salt and aluminum oxide off of my car.  He says they recycle the water, so are basically rinsing my car in salt water????

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It very much depends on when the car wash was installed, the older ones do not recycle water, but as water charges increase, and as a sop to the green lobby, newer car washes do recycle. The water shouldn't get salty, but that depends on the filtration system working properly..

I worked as a technician for a big supermarket chain, with minor responsibility for the on-site car washes. Basically check the drains and check it works ok, call out the car wash company if required. That  one did not re cycle, they had their own on site water bore hole / processing  plant. 

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12 hours ago, The Q said:

It's an interesting discussion what to use, once I've anti fouled, I'll be polishing the hull. I've been researching for some time, as yet no final decision which wax or coating... At least I have less than most to polish, my boat is smaller than some of your tenders. One of this weekends tasks is marking out the waterline for the first time...

why would you put a coating over an anti-fouling?  isn't that defeating the purpose

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1 hour ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

why would you put a coating over an anti-fouling?  isn't that defeating the purpose

 

Obvious to most that he was referring the the topsides.....

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11 hours ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

why would you put a coating over an anti-fouling?  isn't that defeating the purpose

Who says over the anti fouling?, I'll be polishing the hull above the antifouling.  After the below waterlines is anti fouled, so that  there is no chance of wax where the antifoul should stick to.

Yes the hull, below the water line, will be lightly sanded before antifouling, but you can never be 100% sure you haven't just spread any accidentally transferred  wax around...

 

The above being said, there are wax antifouls, mostly used for out drives, and antifouls like silic-one, which include silicone in the paint like many waxes. So some varieties of antifouling are begining to blur the lines between a wax and a paint..

This has been the case for some time  with some brands of shed and fence paint which are a waterborne wax .

 

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Pinged a local auto shop to tint the windows on my new ride and here is their ceramic section of the quote that I did not ask for...

A $500/year 'semi permanent 1 year coating' that I can go to a car wash 2x/month for $360/yr??????

Repels dirt......?

 

Ceramic Coating + Color Correction
FUSION PLUS bonds at the molecular level to seal and protect surfaces from environmental contaminants, harmful UV rays and also provides resistanceto light scratches and fading. Repel dirt and liquids making surfaces easier to clean.
$499 Sport Package - Semi Permanent ONE YEAR Coating - No Color Correction Full Painted Surfaces/Wheel Faces - NEW CARS ONLY Vehicle is properly washed/iron deposit cleaned/dried/vacuumed 
$799 Coating Only Package - Permanent FOUR YEAR Coating Full Painted Surfaces/Wheel Faces - USED CARS Vehicle is properly washed/iron deposit cleaned/dried/vacuumed 
$999 Single Stage Color Correction Package - Permanent FOUR YEAR Coating Full Painted Surfaces/Wheel Faces NEW or USED - Vehicle is properly washed/iron deposit cleaned/dried/vacuumed 
$750 + $75 Per Hour (Typical 8-10 hours) TWO Stage Color Correction - Permanent FOUR YEAR Coating Full Painted Surfaces/Wheel Faces NEW or USED - Vehicle is properly washed/iron deposit cleaned/dried/vacuumed 
 
Addtional Ceramic Coating Services
$300 Interior - All Surface from dash down
$400 Full Wheels and Brake Calipers 
$250 Glass 
 
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1 minute ago, Liquid said:

Pinged a local auto shop to tint the windows on my new ride and here is their ceramic section of the quote that I did not ask for...

A $500/year 'semi permanent 1 year coating' that I can go to a car wash 2x/month for $360/yr??????

Repels dirt......?

 

Ceramic Coating + Color Correction
FUSION PLUS bonds at the molecular level to seal and protect surfaces from environmental contaminants, harmful UV rays and also provides resistanceto light scratches and fading. Repel dirt and liquids making surfaces easier to clean.
$499 Sport Package - Semi Permanent ONE YEAR Coating - No Color Correction Full Painted Surfaces/Wheel Faces - NEW CARS ONLY Vehicle is properly washed/iron deposit cleaned/dried/vacuumed 
$799 Coating Only Package - Permanent FOUR YEAR Coating Full Painted Surfaces/Wheel Faces - USED CARS Vehicle is properly washed/iron deposit cleaned/dried/vacuumed 
$999 Single Stage Color Correction Package - Permanent FOUR YEAR Coating Full Painted Surfaces/Wheel Faces NEW or USED - Vehicle is properly washed/iron deposit cleaned/dried/vacuumed 
$750 + $75 Per Hour (Typical 8-10 hours) TWO Stage Color Correction - Permanent FOUR YEAR Coating Full Painted Surfaces/Wheel Faces NEW or USED - Vehicle is properly washed/iron deposit cleaned/dried/vacuumed 
 
Addtional Ceramic Coating Services
$300 Interior - All Surface from dash down
$400 Full Wheels and Brake Calipers 
$250 Glass 
 

 

Sounds like Snake Oil to me, you agree? 

I got a spray bottle of the "Last Coat" brand of so so-called ceramic coating, which won some dodgy online competition.  When the weather is better, maybe next week, I will attempt to thoroughly clean and polish the car and try it, but many videos say I need to decontaminate with clay bar before polishing, prior to ceramic final coat.   Anyone done this, please??  I have heard that clay bar is a days long hand done process, but others use it on a polishing wheel???

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10 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

 

Sounds like Snake Oil to me, you agree? 

I got a spray bottle of the "Last Coat" brand of so so-called ceramic coating, which won some dodgy online competition.  When the weather is better, maybe next week, I will attempt to thoroughly clean and polish the car and try it, but many videos say I need to decontaminate with clay bar before polishing, prior to ceramic final coat.   Anyone done this, please??  I have heard that clay bar is a days long hand done process, but others use it on a polishing wheel???

Maybe not 100% snake oil as I'm a devout user of RainX - that shit works!

I'm sure there is some merit to the products but I can't see the cost justification.

... a 'permanent 4 year coating' for $1K, huh?

So, permanent is now 4 years.......

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20 minutes ago, Liquid said:

Maybe not 100% snake oil as I'm a devout user of RainX - that shit works!

I'm sure there is some merit to the products but I can't see the cost justification.

... a 'permanent 4 year coating' for $1K, huh?

So, permanent is now 4 years.......

 

I saw one that was 2 grand, and "lifetime warranty"!!!??

 

PT Barnum was right,  "There is a sucker born, every minute"...

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14 minutes ago, Al Paca said:

Pure Bullshit. 

 

I think there may be some merit in using a ceramic coating, instead of wax, and will hopefully find out over the next couple of weeks, weather and my available time syncing together.  Will report back when completed. 10% discount at Tractor Supply is good for one more day, so might swing by for some microfiber rags, for polishing......

 

Still curious about the "clay bar" "decontamination" prior to "polishing" and ceramic application??  Please feel free to share your experience, or knowledge in that regard, I will look at Google for clay bar now....
 

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9 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

 

I saw one that was 2 grand, and "lifetime warranty"!!!??

 

PT Barnum was right,  "There is a sucker born, every minute"...

Lifetime Warranty = 7 years in the US.

Which is far better than a 4 year permanent job!

 

I'm guessing the clay is a way to remove the existing wax layers so you can get a bond with the OEM paint surface.

Is rubbing compound out of the question vs rubbing clay on you car.....?

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2 minutes ago, Liquid said:

Lifetime Warranty = 7 years in the US.

Which is far better than a 4 year permanent job!

 

I'm guessing the clay is a way to remove the existing wax layers so you can get a bond with the OEM paint surface.

Is rubbing compound out of the question vs rubbing clay on you car.....?

When I watch YouTube the same people selling you ceramic seem to insist on a labor intensive paint “Correction “ process on brand new cars as apparently nobody puts on paint correctly 

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20 minutes ago, Liquid said:

Lifetime Warranty = 7 years in the US.

Which is far better than a 4 year permanent job!

 

I'm guessing the clay is a way to remove the existing wax layers so you can get a bond with the OEM paint surface.

Is rubbing compound out of the question vs rubbing clay on you car.....?

 

It's a 2017, 430i, so 4 years old when we got it in January.  Obviously never garaged, due to 6 or 8 dents and dings on the  boot, roof and bonnet.  Wiper blades were shot too at 13,550 miles due to baking in the summer sun in MA... Dealer had the dent wizard fix that, on them..

I don't think it needs rubbing compound.  I think it needs cleaning and possibly clay bar, then polishing, then the ceramic coating,  Not sure if I have the free time or willingness,  to handle these tasks, myself...

More later...

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22 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

 

It's a 2017, 430i, so 4 years old when we got it in January.  Obviously never garaged, due to 6 or 8 dents and dings on the  boot, roof and bonnet.  Wiper blades were shot too at 13,550 miles due to baking in the summer sun in MA... Dealer had the dent wizard fix that, on them..

I don't think it needs rubbing compound.  I think it needs cleaning and possibly clay bar, then polishing, then the ceramic coating,  Not sure if I have the free time or willingness,  to handle these tasks, myself...

More later...

I meant compound instead of clay... either one will effectively scratch your OEM paint job!

Outsource non core competencies! 

It saves money in the long run!!

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2 hours ago, billy backstay said:

Still curious about the "clay bar" "decontamination" prior to "polishing" and ceramic application??  Please feel free to share your experience, or knowledge in that regard, I will look at Google for clay bar now....
 

Clay works.

Give your car a thorough washing. After it dries run your hand over the paint - feel that "roughness"?

Now spend the time to clay the hood or a fender then run your hand over it - babies bottom.

It's tedious though - you have to rub a small piece over every inch of the car by hand. You don't do it very often though unless you have terminal OCD

Any sort of "power" clay process is snake oil on par with ceramics.

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A clay bar will take out minor contaminants in the paint before you seal it.

If your paint is faded, you are going to need to polish it to remove the chalked paint as the clay bar is not aggressive enough.

If your paint is rougher than a night in county lockup, you will need a to compound, then polish to remove the scratches.  In some cases you need to wet sand (eg color sand) first.   I have turned totaled paint to better than factory new (eg no orange peel) before sealing.

 

Whether you use ceramics, wax or otherwise, you need to get the paint right first.

Just like your hull, that takes a lot of labor and materials to prep a car correctly. Hence the variation in costs.  If it takes 3 days to prep the vehicle before waxing/sealing, you are going to be writing a big check.

Just like a boat, there is "good enough" and perfection.  Perfection takes a shitload more time and there is no elixir in a bottle that is going to bypass all that prep work.

You need to ask what a detailer is doing to justify their prices.  Some fly by nighters may be conning you.  A professional can easily justify their labors.  Your chiselng ass may balk at paying for perfection but there there are others who will lavish such love on their car.

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On 4/22/2021 at 11:41 PM, Olsonist said:

The difference between grand for a bottle and EBay shite is mostly concentration. This guy gets into the detail. In both cases (and in the spectrum in between) you're getting SiO2.

Thanks for that link. I was interested in that he seemed to go into the "chemical boding' aspect, of which I know very little.

So, sent it to my retired PhD brother, whose career includes working on the chemistry for the space shuttle tiles. Here's what he wrote me (please excuse any typos):

Quote

By the way, that tube video on a poysilazane preceramic was impossible to watch. The guy on the chalkboard was blowing smoke out his ass. That said, the product might still work. It is just a different mechanism to make a mostly silica type coating. Hate to call it a true ceramic though as it is not. 

 So, still undecided whether to try the 'E-Z on spray-and-wipe' on my gelcoat. If my friend decides to try on his, maybe next year we'll try on mine and the others :) 

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On 4/22/2021 at 1:52 PM, billy backstay said:

The '17 430i hardtop Convertible coupe, we just acquired was never garaged by the previous owner.  I can tell, because with only 13,500 miles the wiper blades were shot from baking in the sun and there were a half dozen or more dings in the boot, bonnet and roof. Dealer had Dent Wizard remove all the dings and dents.   It's garaged now, and I want to get some paint protection.   Young man at work, does detailing on the side, and been to lots of classes.  Claims he only uses an Armor All Ceramic coating product, that's the only one guaranteed for life, that costs a grand for a bottle, but it goes a long way, and will do my car for 200 bucks.  I saw his older Subaru, that he spent 4 hours doing last night and it looked good.  But, I could find no evidence of this product searching the interwebs??  I bought a bottle of "Last Coat" ceramic coating, which one review recommended over the others, but with my effed up shoulders, I am not up to the task myself, so will probably hire someone.  

Then, I talked with a local detail guy who does lots of other car work, and I have known for many years, and trust his opinions and knowledge about these things.  He has done excellent work on many of my cars over the years.  He installed electric windows and cruise control in my old pickup.   He said the "Ceramic" coating craze, is just a marketing scam to pilfer our wallets, and every car finish product you see now, has the word "ceramic" in it.  He claims that a good wax job once a year, and keeping it garaged when not in use, is the smarter, better way go. 

So is Ceramic coating really better than a good Caranuba wax job, or is it a bunch of Snake Oil???

I think "ceramic" in wax is likely a big nothing burger.  However, there are some special coatings that are hard ceramic (nano-ceramic) and have to be applied by a pro.  It supposedly bonds with the paint to protect it.  I did that to my Porsche in Dubai about 2 years ago and it looked amazing.  It was pricey, but I was very happy with the results.  Unfortunately, I left and ended up having to sell the car and wasn't able to see the finish over the long term.  But it held the shine and water beading well past a normal wax period.  I did a fair amount of research before I pulled the trigger, so was fairly confident that it was the right decision.  YMMV.

https://www.exclusivedetail.com/ceramic-coating-for-cars/

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IMHO, I think the "DIY" ceramic coatings are a rip off.  But the real professionally applied stuff is better than any wax.

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